Ukraine will become a NATO member

Rut Roh

NATO said that Ukraine will get a path toward membership and urged it to keep advancing reforms in a communique issued after the conclusion of the alliance’s summit in Brussels on June 14, 2021.

“We reiterate the decision made at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine will become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP) as an integral part of the process,” said the statement. “We stand firm in our support for Ukraine’s right to decide its own future and foreign policy course free from outside interference.”

However, the document did not make any indication of timescales, nor did it offer any concrete guarantees for further steps.

“The Annual National Programmes under the NATO-Ukraine Commission (NUC) remain the mechanism by which Ukraine takes forward the reforms pertaining to its aspiration for NATO membership,” NATO stated.

“Ukraine should make full use of all instruments available under the NUC to reach its objective of implementing NATO principles and standards.  The success of wide-ranging, sustainable, and irreversible reforms, including combating corruption, promoting an inclusive political process, and decentralization reform, based on democratic values, respect for human rights, minorities, and the rule of law, will be crucial in laying the groundwork for a prosperous and peaceful Ukraine.”

“Further reforms in the security sector, including the reform of the Security Services of Ukraine, are particularly important,” the alliance emphasized.

Any hopes that this would be the year that Ukraine would move closer to joining NATO were dashed in May 2021, when the organization announced that Ukraine and Georgia would not be invited to attend the Brussels summit, part of which would be devoted to the discussion of their security situations. Russia is in control of 20 percent of Georgian territory and 7 percent of Ukrainian territory, after military invasions in 2008 and 2014, respectively.

President Volodymyr Zelensky pushed his U.S. counterpart, Joe Biden, to support a Membership Action Plan for Ukraine during their phone call on June 7.

After the call, the Ukrainian President’s Office published a statement, which said that Biden “highlighted… the importance of providing the Ukrainian state with a NATO Membership Action Plan.”

This was retracted shortly after, when the White House denied that Biden had made any such commitment. When asked whether Biden supported giving Ukraine a MAP this year, the White House refused to comment.

Ukraine was recognized by NATO as an Enhanced Opportunities Partner in June 2020. This status gives the country further information-sharing and joint exercise opportunities, but does not guarantee any further steps towards membership.

^^^ via Kyiv Post

I don't know how to feel about this.

YES !!!!!

The world needs more gorgeous Ukrainian men and the quicker we force them to accept gay marriage the better.

I sort of feel you're better having a few buffer states in between you and your enemy. Granted this is probably good for the Ukrainians no longer being Putin's football. But it now only needs an armed patrol to take a wrong turn near the Crimea and we're in WW3.

I wonder if Georgia is next.

Turkey can be told that it is no longer welcome as a NATO member as the West’s patience with President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s government wears thin, Bloomberg’s editorial board saidon Sunday ahead of a summit of the military alliance.

Turkey wants to stay under the West’s military protection and craves for membership in its economic associations while Erdoğan aligns the country with China, Russia and Iran, the powers openly hostile to the interests of the West, Bloomberg said.

“The West should respond by demonstrating that its tolerance for Turkish truculence is at an end. The best forum to do so is NATO,” the editorial board said.

Turkey’s closer ties to Russia have contributed to a deterioration in its relations with the West over the past five years. Turkey acquired a Russian S-400 air defence system in 2019, ignoring warnings by NATO and the United States that the missiles were a threat to the security of the alliance’s technology.

Turkey has also attacked Kurdish militants in Iraq allied with NATO members in the battle against Islamic State (ISIS), engaged in disputes over territory with Greece and Cyprus and clashed diplomatically with France over Libya. NATO has also expressed its concerns over Turkey’s deteriorating human rights record. Membership requires adherence to democratic principles.

This is stupid. How would we feel if Canada had joined the Warsaw Pact? Needless provocation of Putin.

NATO is outdated and America is terribly overextended.

[quote] Needless provocation of Putin.

Much like Putin's needless annexation of Crimea?

Fuck Putin!

R9 This is for Europe, not the US. You might think NATO is outdated but Europe doesn’t.

Even Macron believes NATO is brain dead, the post war order is on its last breaths.

The reason Putin annexed Crimea and marched his troops into Donnas was to prevent Ukraine membership of NATO. Actions have consequences R9 and Ukraine has been an independent country since 1991.

How do you think the Baltics feel about Russian military build up on their borders?

It's on my mind, R7.

R8 The US should have expelled Turkey from NATO after they invaded Cyprus in 1974, as it violates the basic tenants of the NATO agreement. But the US didn't want to lose their strategic military base in the region.

Bring Putin down!

R10 that’s none of your business. Have you ever even been to Crimea? Maybe the people there want to be part of Russia. But even if they don’t, it has nothing to do with the average American who can’t afford food/rent/groceries.

R13 I think the Baltics should have never been let into NATO either. Why are we committing American lives to defend Estonia? 95% of Americans couldn’t find Estonia on a map.

Plus Putin will call our bluff sooner or later. America is not going to go to war with a country that has nukes. Although I kinda hope he does call our bluff because I’d like NATO to be exposed for the useless anachronism it is.

This is utter stupidity.

Yikes

The Baltics absolutely SHOULD be part of NATO. That region hates Russia and for good reason. Given their proximity to Russia, it's another plus.

And Ukraine being part of Ukraine is a great move--it will piss Russia/Putin the hell off.

*Ukraine being part of NATO

R13, the Baltics HATE Russians and Russia. They were quick to shed a lot of the Soviet baggage once they became free. They are fearful that Russia will try and absorb and/or invade them. I completely understand why.

Tell the Deplorables that the Estonian people and military overthrew it's current president via violent coup and watch how many at least PRETEND to be able to find it on a map, Defacto @ R18.

Biden and his team are pretty impressive in global politics (or maybe Trump just set such a low bar?) Signaling that Ukraine has a path to NATO is a good tactic.

[quote]I think the Baltics should have never been let into NATO either. Why are we committing American lives to defend Estonia?

You understand the concept of alliances?

[quote]Signaling that Ukraine has a path to NATO is a good tactic.

Yes, esp a few days before he meets up with Putin in Geneva!

[quote] How would we feel if Canada had joined the Warsaw Pact?

Probably not as bad as we did when the Soviets put nuclear tipped missiles in Cuba.

Biden says it 'remains to be seen' whether Ukraine will be admitted to NATO

Putin is about to get his ass handed to him.... little bitch.

Biden Says Ukraine Has Work to Do on Corruption to Get Into NATO

It's a good message before meeting with Putin. It may have been coordinated in agreement with Zelensky.

via NBC NEWS

Biden, who has previously called for Ukraine to join NATO, made clear that such a move had not been approved yet.

"School's out on that question. It remains to be seen," he said when asked for a "yes or no" about Ukraine joining the organization. "In the meantime we will do all we can to put Ukraine in a position to be able to continue to resist Russian physical aggression."

"It depends on whether they meet the criteria. The fact is they still have to clean up corruption and the fact is they have to meet other criteria to get into the action plan."

Political DL, have you all been following G7 and NATO summit as much as me? Never cared much before but now I’m interested in seeing how this government we fought so hard for can deliver on the world stage.

Good grief- the number of Russian Z-list Worthy troll bots on this thread is astounding. Didn't you hear the News children? There's a New Sherriff in town.

One who doesn't abandon long-time allies from a 20 year military struggle, just to let Russia walk right in and tale over American Military bases. Maybe Ukranians *LIKE* being subsumed by their Russian advancing overlords? Why sure, if you think outright Persecution of it's LGBT folks, to the point if hunting them down and executing them was a a boon Ukranians were 'dying' to add to their increasingly opening society. And I'm SURE that the general populace was just so dang proud, when the hoards of Russian Military invaders in the Ukraine, made the Deeply Profound decision to shoot a Civilian Airliner out of the sky, killing everyone on board. Gosh- isn't that something ALL Modern geo-political states aspire to?

So F-ck off with your blatant and pathetic attempts to swing the narrative around to some pro-Russian Militaristic argument Bullshit. You're as transparent as a roll of some crappy bargain toilet paper.

And if NATO is g-d damn useless, how 'bout you go tell that to the Families of British, German, Norwegian, French, etc ad Nauseaum soldiers, who GAVE THEIR LIVES to the U S. of A. When the call came to fight Bush/Cheney's bullshit Wars in the Middle East. I didn't hear too many Americans complaining about. NATO alliances then.

Pathetic.

"Joe Biden has been wrong about every major foreign policy issue for the last forty years." - Robert Gates, Obama's Sec. of Defense

[quote]95% of Americans couldn’t find Estonia on a map.

95% of Americans couldn't find Arkansas on a map, either. The US doesn't base its foreign policy on the ignorance of its citizens.

But....Hunter's laptop!

Obama was wrong on many things. That's why Putin was able to hijack the election. Make no mistake, I liked the guy, but he made grave mistakes. Comey, not intervening in Syria, encouraging Merkel to open up EU borders to millions of horny male Muslims, not fixing North Korea, being too soft on Iran and Russia ... not acknowledging the Armenian genocide act, not acknowledging Taiwan.

How did cosying up to Cuba actually help???

R36: ".....anymore."

FIFY.

R37, have you been drinking again?

r33 I like how you addressed us as, political DL.

Has me wondering if we should attempt to keep a thread running and call it, Political DL, where we can discuss politics that more related to international happenings.

Why didn’t the world go to war over Putin invading Crimea?

Thani you r39, you're absolutely right!

[quote] Obama was wrong on many things.

Agreed. I think comparing a lot about the thoughts of the average American is good but NOT when it comes to international relations/foreign policy. Obama's "red line" plan in Syria was a complete failure. He refused to take as much action as he could have because of the tide against military intervention.

trump only made that worse

Why are we still involved over there? Isn’t the EU a superpower?

What’s bad about this?

I would have saved many, many lives.

Hillary proposed a no fly zone over Syria, (the idea was already considered by Obama's admin) would have prevented Putin supporting Assad's mass murderous actions in Syria. 3 fractions were against the no fly zone proposal. Russia, Trump and the far left.

Go figure!

[quote] 3 fractions were against the no fly zone proposal. Russia, Trump and the far left.

How typical. And these three groups were also the most anti-Biden groups prior to his election win.

Sorry, but going to Russia's borders is a provocation. Don't blame the Russians for the coming decades of unrest.

Ukraine will join NATO. Putin already knows this. Then what’s to become of Crimea? One can only hope the conflict remains confined to this area. However, expect increasing cyberattacks. I’d love to see America retaliate with some crushing and devastating counter cyberattacks.

Oh wow. This is quite a big development.

Putin will not be happy.

Who is this Dejure idiot? Boris unmasked? Whatever, it's blocked now.

"I'm an American Homosexual with noted interest in the political situation in the Crimea. I am also rabidly pro-Putin. Happy Pride, American Gays." Sure, Jan.

Ukraine should have joined NATO years ago, but Trump's buddy Paul Manafort sabotaged it.

[quote] Paul Manafort, who was Trump's campaign chief from May to August 2016, spent nearly a decade as a consultant to Ukraine's Party of Regions and its standardbearer, Viktor Yanukovych.

[quote] Backed by Russian-leaning oligarchs, the party opposed NATO membership and spouted anti-Western rhetoric that once helped fuel violence against American marines. Its reign ended when Yanukovych fled to Russia after bloody street protests against his personal corruption and pro-Moscow actions.

This would be dangerously provocative. Putin is the scum of the earth, but the Russians have a legitimate grievance against the United States because we repeatedly lied to them about the prospects of expanding NATO to Russia’s borders.

R55, Are you for real? We should worry about "provoking" Putin?

Do you suppose the US has no arsenal?

Putin hates the U.S. because of its promoting Liberal ideology around the globe. The conservatives, christian right, and Putin all have one thing in common…..they hate liberals

Liberals have the bad reputation of calling out injustice and inequality. Authoritarians hate that.

As for respecting Russia's borders, Putin can start by respecting Ukraine's borders, i.e., Crimea.

Plus, American Right-Wingers now admire Russia as the last and best bastion of White Christian Male Heterosexual Supremacy.

The ultimate irony, of course, is when these ignorant Deplorables parade holding Nazi flags and hold conventions on stages shaped like a pseudo-swastika!

I guess no one learned anything from Turkey. Increasingly belligerent to Europe - actually holding Europe/the EU firmly by the balls due to Merkel's 2015 Muslim migrant disaster - and currently holding 50 nuclear weapons at its Incirlik Air Base. Granted they're B61 bombs, but they can still do serious damage.

Ukraine is nothing more than a pawn in the on-going West/East whose dick is bigger match. I hope NATO is smart enough to keep the nukes far away from the match.

R53 I didn’t say “Happy Pride.”

if you're pro-putin you're an idiot

I hope the rage Vlad feels about this flares his Parkinson's so terribly he falls over a balcony, to his "untimely" demise.

[quote]Turkey wants to stay under the West’s military protection and craves for membership in its economic associations while Erdoğan aligns the country with China, Russia and Iran...

In case anyone was wondering who would be the New Axis powers in WWIII.

Beware…..Boris and Natasha have infiltrated this thread.

R58 you realize we supported the overthrow of the democratically elected pro-Russian government in Ukraine in order to pull Ukraine out of Russia’s sphere on influence, negotiate a new trade deal that would send Ukraine’s wealth to the West instead of to Russia, and pave the way for Ukraine to join NATO? Some of you act like Putin invaded Georgia and annexed Crimea for shits and giggles.

And the people who bring up how ridiculous it is that Turkey is still a member of NATO after all the shady shit they’ve pulled are right. A few years ago Turkey shot down a Russian fighter without justification (because Turkey was backing ISIS and Russia was backing Assad in Syria) and dared Russia to retaliate. That was an extraordinarily dangerous moment because if Russia had attacked Turkey in retaliation and Turkey had activated the article of NATO that says an attack against one member is an attack against all members, the US and the rest of our NATO allies would have had a choice at that moment: abandon NATO or declare war on Russia. Adding Russia’s neighbors to NATO increases the likelihood that Russia will one day gamble that NATO isn’t really interested in starting WWIII to defend some border town in Ukraine. And that gamble will not end well for NATO countries either way it turns out.

And the people who attack Putin and celebrate provocative actions like this are missing the point that this shit makes Putin stronger. As long as he can paint himself as a strongman standing up to the “evil West”that is expanding a hostile military alliance to Russia’s borders, he can better avoid scrutiny for his handling of domestic affairs. I don’t understand why the US insists on allowing Putin to cast himself as a wartime president by doing things like this. It helps Putin rather than hurts him.

Dejure is Defuckto under his new pseudonym.

Dimitrti @ R66 needs to have a chat with Victor Yushchenko, who was poisoned with dioxin during the 2004 run off election between him and Victor Yanucovich. Paul Manaford and Tad Devine were lobbyists for Yanucovich.

Russia is a shithole country BECAUSE of Putin and his mafia/oligarchs. Maybe if they invested in improving their own country instead of fucking around with the rest of the world, they could participate in the world economy.

Ukraine joining NATO is good for Democratic nations and their alliances. You can tell that this has Putin worried from all of the Boris and Natasha responses on this thread. Enjoy your helping of vodka and borscht, assholes!

You’re free to call me Boris or Dimitri all you want. I’m not defending Putin. All I’m suggesting is that it’s a complicated situation, not some childish black and white fairy tale of good versus evil where Russia is the evil empire bent on world domination and we’re the selfless principled defenders of freedom and democracy. The history of enmity between the US and Russia going back over a century to when Woodrow Wilson sent American troops to invade the Soviet Union is complex and deserves to be treated as such. Otherwise it just becomes a Hatfield-McCoy type situation like the one that exists in the Middle East where you end up in a never ending cycle of revenge. That leads nowhere but to self destruction in a situation involving two nuclear powers where one can never triumph over the other militarily without destroying itself. We’ve fucked with Russia for decades. They’ve fucked with us for decades. That’s not an excuse to keep fucking with each other until we do what we came close to doing to the world in 1962, 1983, and God knows how many other times that we haven’t even been told about.

I have argued that inviting Ukraine to join NATO is a provocative action that could lead to war. Some like R56 apparently are channeling General Turgidson or the ghost of Barry Goldwater by suggesting that war with Russia would be just fine and dandy because we can somehow outnuke them, as if that would matter in a nuclear war. If thinking that it’s a mistake to invite Ukraine to join NATO makes me a Boris, then I guess you can add Zbigniew Brzezinski, Henry Kissinger, and a host of other American foreign policy experts to the list of Russian puppets because they’re on record saying the exact same thing. We should find some way of cooling off the situation, not making war more likely. Ukraine joining NATO escalates hostilities and makes war more likely. And as I said earlier, that makes Putin stronger, not weaker, in Russia.

[quote] . All I’m suggesting is that it’s a complicated situation, not some childish black and white fairy tale of good versus evil where Russia is the evil empire bent on world domination and we’re the selfless principled defenders of freedom and democracy.

It is complicated but the Russian government is CLEARLY evil. I'm not sure how people don't see that. Yes, American government has done awful thingsbut there is just no comparison to Putin's Russia.

Everybody knows that appeasement is not working with Putin. So R70 is full of shit.

Vlad murders or imprisons anyone who opposes him. He also thinks Ukraine and other Baltic nations belong to Russia. Appeasement of him has not worked, it only emboldened him.

I never suggested appeasement, and I don’t think you know what that word means. Since Russia annexed Crimea we’ve placed hundreds of billions of dollars worth of economic sanctions on Russia causing the ruble to collapse, we have expelled over 100 Russian diplomats, we’ve gone after Russian oligarchs and their personal fortunes and business interests, we’ve denied Russia access to many international banking systems, etc. That’s not appeasement, and it’s obviously not working to change Putin’s behavior. I’m calling for old fashioned detente, not appeasement, which is what worked the last time. If you want war with Russia then just come out and say it.

R66r70r74. Very accurate. ‘I looked into his eyes’ GWB was the last US President that extended a handshake to Putin. Even then Putz warned him not to set up a NATO missile defense system in the former republics. Bush was so stupid he told Putz they were putting it there to knock out missiles from the Middle East (this was after 9/11). Putz didn’t buy it. So it’s true that he sees the move as a provocation. It’s also true that once they opened East Berlin that NATO was to be dissolved.

If this happens, Putz will be Xi’s bestest friend. Look out if that happens as well. Putz is not stupid. The US is already Sabre rattling with China. At least the mission of taking out China is something both Dems & Pukes agree on. On the other hand maybe we should grab our butts and start kissing it goodbye.

Russia is the old dying woman of Eurasia, filled with hubris and memories of her pre-1980s glory days. Her BFF, China, is slowly but steadily stealing Siberia away from her.

Biden: "The fact is they still have to clean up corruption"

i.e. this will never happen

R77. It’s entirely possible that China is encroaching on Siberia. If Russia is capable of extraction, while China wields the big stick, then it can be mutually beneficial, I guess. Maybe China will pull out of Africa? Who knows?

DEJURE, you're a fucking idiot.

Easing relations is the absolute wrong thing to do. Putin sabotages the West every opportunity he gets. Why would anybody play nice with him? R70 is an idiot!

The Nato SG and several member states (including France and Germany) have poured cold water and stated it's not happening any time soon. What a walk back.

R74 I'm not the one you're talking to, but wanted to mention that we expelled a lot of those Russian diplomats because they were part of a program of hacking into US intelligence computer systems, which was very likely part of the overall election hacking they engaged in back in 2016. Trump of course let them back in and gave them their compounds back in 2017. That's effectively appeasement, when sanctions and punishments are only temporary.

Look, r70, I (r58) concede that the US hasn't been totally on the square with Russia re: Ukraine.

And I'm no naif when it comes to previous US history (including shooting down that Iranian Airbus, the proximate Iranian retaliatory cause of Pan Am 103, not perpetrated by Libya); Vietnam; Allende; Central America "Banana Wars"; installation of Shah Reza Pahlavi; and more). Nor am I of the murders sanctioned by Putin.

However, I am also not a war-monger (you dare mention the name of War-Monger and War Criminal Extraordinaire Henry Kissinger as any kind of sage on this geopolitical situation?!).

My post (r56) was a counter to how we should be scared to "provoke" Putin, who might better be well-advised not to provoke NATO and America. Where is your "advice" to HIM?

The West cannot stand idly by as Putin seeks to encroach, invade, and annex farther, intent on re-forming the old Soviet empire. The US didn't do that in 1962 with the Soviet Union in Cuba, and we won't be supine in 2021 with Russia in Crimea.

Furthermore, President Biden is beyond Putin's Kompromat power. And that loss of power over and control of the POTUS has the Russian worried.

Thus, we will face Putin's troops with those of NATO. And Putin will perforce back down.

Why are we involving ourselves in something like this? Does NATO mean we have to continue on with 800 bases around the world, etc.? I'm sick of it.

[quote] The West cannot stand idly by as Putin seeks to encroach, invade, and annex farther, intent on re-forming the old Soviet empire. The US didn't do that in 1962 with the Soviet Union in Cuba, and we won't be supine in 2021 with Russia in Crimea.

America isn't all the West. The EU could get a spine, so we don't have to be the continent's security guarantor anymore.

And why should we care if Russia, say, takes the Russian-speaking half of Ukraine? Let it sort itself out. Maybe if they did, the EU would pour more investment, aid, and expertise into the Western-oriented remainder of Ukraine, accelerating its integration with the rest of Europe. A West Germany-East Germany kind of contrast, to show the world the results of Russian rule.

If Russia is a dying country, what kind of reasonably foreseeable threat do they pose to America itself?

America under Trump bent over and spread its cheeks to Kim Jong Un and Vlad. The public asskissing, the love letters, the personal phone late-night booty calls...and where did that get us? Knifed us in the back, cyber-style.

Fuck trying to get along with psychopaths. Smarter to build (re-build) alliances with others, as imperfect as they might be, than to cozy up to someone who has shown themselves --over and over-- to be bug house crazy and will pack blueprints of your total destruction in the overnight bag they're bringing to the sleepover you've asked them to.

If, as you say, Russia is a dying country, then what do they stand to lose then? The US should never forget the sacrifices they made (some 30 million+ lives sacrificed) to overtake Germany and Hitler in WWII. Russia has never recovered from that many lives lost - hence, as you contend, the result is that they are a dying Eurasian country.

The US and Russia do not have to be adversaries. China, on the other hand, would be the natural US adversary. They are not known historically as being unduly aggressive (compared to say, Japan), but they do know about wealth and commerce. They are the Jews of Asia (no offense to the Jewish community intended). It’s just that they are business/commerce oriented.

US GDP is 14x that of Russia. US also has similar nuclear capabilities. US is the clear power house. Not sure why we are so scared of Russia.

Having to go back to WWII to find Russians worth a damn isn't the argument for NOW that you obviously think it is, R88.

Especially since VPutty leads them.

[quote] The US and Russia do not have to be adversaries. China, on the other hand, would be the natural US adversary. They are not known historically as being unduly aggressive (compared to say, Japan), but they do know about wealth and commerce. They are the Jews of Asia (no offense to the Jewish community intended). It’s just that they are business/commerce oriented.

So America's natural adversaries aren't unduly aggressive powers, but rather commerce-oriented powers?

America's gone to war with Germany and Japan. Unduly aggressive powers. The Cold War was with the USSR, a distinctively non-commercial power (name a national champion of the USSR, if you don't believe it).

Commerce doesn't have to be adversarial. Nonzero games, etc. War is adversarial. We are "adversaries" with those with whom we are at war.

I don't get some of the unquestioning love of Russia. They are entitled and want to constantly relive the glory of the old USSR, all the while refusing to face reality and engage the rest of the world with a 21st century economy. And on top of it all, they stir up trouble in the rest of the world and interfered in the 2016 American election while Putin murders and imprisons his political adversaries.

I say the same thing about parts of the United States--you have communities (mostly in red states) that are pissed off that their town no longer has it's saw mill or coal mine and it has basically turned into a deserted shithole with people addicted to alcohol/opioids. Instead of understanding why their town is dried up and deserted and trying to fix the problem (like maybe retraining for 21st century jobs like green energy), they are angry, resentful, and entitled--wanting and expecting the old ways back. Plus they are constantly propagandized by right wing media who lie to them, much the same way Putin controls media in Russia and lies to his people. I travel a lot for work in red states and it wasn't like this 20 or so years ago--it seems similar to stories I've heard from friends who have visited Russia. The people are mean, angry, depressed, and resentful of outsiders.

We’ll R81 I guess that for the time being Biden is a likeminded idiot because he just announced that he’s restoring the US and Russian ambassadors to their posts in an effort to ease tensions.

On a lighter note, amid all of the ridiculous lies Putin spewed to the press about how Russia is totally innocent of all of these cyberattacks being carried out in Russia, he did take a moment to drag George W. Bush by saying about Biden, "It seems to me that we did speak the same language. It certainly doesn't imply that we looked into each other's eyes and found a soul or swore eternal friendship."

Putin is a troll's troll, like the trolliest troll that ever trolled. That presser was ridiculous, when he was asked about jailing Navalny, he immediately downshifted into "America jailed the 1/6 protestors too." It sounded like something you'd hear Kellyanne Conway say on Fox--see, both sides do it. And he says all this crap with a shit eating grin on his face. Fuck him.

R94 Agree but it allowed for a clear comparison with Biden. Biden came off so much more distinguished and nuanced in his presser than Putin.

The type of comparison 'Navalny / Trump supporters that stormed the Capitol' is what autocrats always come up with. And these type of comparisons always show how people like Putin or Xi outright reject democracy in favor of dictatorship.

Russia and China do not believe in the values the West believes in. If you acknowledge that living in western countries is preferable just for the high living standards, health care, education, infrastructure, social security ..., the kind of argument autocrats like Putin and Xi make that their way of seeing how a society functions is better than the West's, is pretty pathetic and laughable.

It's almost like autocrats reject democracy because if they would adapt democracy they would finally admit that they've been wrong for centuries, that they are just a copycat, incapable of implementing good government and society structures without the help and advice of the West.