Once poor, always poor?

[quote] I also still do things like choosing lower priced entrees when eating out, bypassing getting $4 treats like coffee/tea/ice cream, being sure to comparison shop at the grocery store and getting the store brand, etc.

None of those are negatives OP

You are just being smart OP. Keep it up.

Hi OP. I'm pretty comfortable now for sure. I could technically go grocery shopping and not have to look at prices. But I still do. I'm selective about what I will splurge on. I still shop at ALDI.

My spouse had to teach me over time to stop buying the cheapest things or the As Is Room at IKEA when buying furniture and the like, because it would frequently break and then I'd have to replace it. For some things, you have to have the wisdom to spend reasonable money to buy something that will last.

But yes, I still have empty butter containers in my pantry for food storage. Some things don't change.

Were you given bonds and stocks every year? The middle class justifies its inherited wealth by being miserly about the tiny stuff; they believe they’re smart, good with money, that they preserve capital.

Meritocratic folks have seen people claw without effect. Their miserliness about the tiny things comes from insecurity.

So, pretend you’ve always lived in the castle and that being a cheap cunt is the smart, virtuous, and proper thing to do.

Stop whining and pick up a young, dumb, full of cum whore. Hide all your pocket watches.

Nah - for the examples you mentioned by R1, those shouldn't be causing you much stress. That's just being good with your money.

Most of consumer society is designed for you to spend just a little more here and there - and it adds up quickly.

I'm always amazed at the huge drive-thru line at Starbucks each morning. These people are not going in and having a coffee-house experience, they're just buying their morning coffee at around $5 a pop. That's $1250 after tax a year.

If the average person makes $60K a year - that's spending almost 3% of your take home pay ($45k) after taxes on your morning coffee.

Yes - that's stupid as fuck. I don't have the same feeling about it if you spend time inside and you're working on your laptop or reading a book - that's a cafe experience.

I don't think I never anyone who started life poor and ended up very rich. Middle-class comfortable, yes, but not rich.

My parents were each raised by single mothers on budgets. Much later in life, as senior citizens, a good deal of money came their way.

My mom could afford to buy an expensive new car every year, making no real difference to her finances. These days, she's considering trading in her ten-year-old Subaru in the autumn, maybe. She's stunned by these young'uns plunking down $15 or so for coffee and pastry after tax and tip at coffee shops.

R5 My spouse has an espresso machine and it seemed ridiculous when he bought it for $1200, but he's had it over a decade. Even with the cost of coffee, he's saved a huge amount from Starbucks and the like.

Sometimes money wisdom is not "don't spend ANY money EVER" but rather "spend wisely and get a good bang for your buck."

No, R4, I was definitely never given a single share of stock. I grew up on a farm and was the first person on both sides of my family to graduate from college and I attended college on full academic scholarships. My mom raised me to work hard in school and with the understanding I was going to go to college which was something she would have loved to do but didn't get the chance.

My parents were generous with what little money they had. We always had birthday and Christmas presents, etc. It's just that we never took vacations, went out to eat at more than fast food places, etc. My dad designated a cow that was mine (Pamela) and I was able to save money by getting the proceeds from the sale of her yearly calf.

OP, you can't be as dump and unselfaware as you type. The reason you worked a long career and were able to save money is because you're a solid person and also not a spendthrift. What's the problem? Enjoy your comfortable retirement.

In a different vein, it's easy to fall into additional spending if you're earning good money and work a lot of hours. I call it 'compensatory spending' - between 2.5 hours commute each day and 9-11 hours of work, I would justify getting my laundry done or not cooking. Sometimes it's worth it to spend the money to claim some free time back - but it's an easy trap to get into.

OP you are being smart. If more people thought like you there would be less people drowning in debt and merchants would think twice before trying to price gouge because they would know people are comparison shopping.

I'm the EXACT same way. Friends sometimes laugh at me but I don't care. I'd rather always have more money and have less things than to have less money and NEED more things.

[quote]I had a well paying career and saved money my whole life (another side effect of growing up with not much). Even though I supposedly have enough [bold]saved and invested to be comfortable in retirement, per my financial advisor, I still don't really believe it internally[/bold].

If you want bad news, ask your financial adviser if you have enough money. But he says that you do, indeed, believe the man.

[quote]I also still do things like choosing lower priced entrees when eating out, bypassing getting $4 treats like coffee/tea/ice cream, being sure to comparison shop at the grocery store and getting the store brand, etc.

I have more than a few friends who have 8-figure wealth who do the same. Within reason it's fine: when you have a simple choice of two things that will bring you equal pleasure, why not take the cheaper? It's a certain peace of mind, or pleasure even, for some not to have overspent or to have chosen a small economy. But if you don't need to watch these things, don't invest too much effort into saving a few dollars here or there when it's inconsequential. Be easy on yourself and don't take these little decisions too seriously or delight too much in them: it makes a person look a bit mean-spirited and doesn't make a dent in the amount of money you're worth when you die.

OP I just love that you had a cow named Pamela. That just made my day.

OP, you little affirmation-seeking slut, you are doing fine. Just be sure to treat yourself every now and then (a concert, dinner, beautiful sweater, etc.) — and be sure to pick the GOOD hotel when travelling.

You have more past than future, better make those years count. You can’t take your money with you.

Can you still buy coffee for 50¢ anymore?

When I lived in the city the deli across the street had a self serve coffee pot. You poured, used the milk or cream, grabbed a packet of sweetener and a stirrer and were out the door after throwing 2 quarters on the checkout counter.

Then I’d walk past Starbucks and see all the millennials waiting in line with sourpusses, looking very put-out by the whole experience. The place was jammed. For hot liquid made from burnt coffee beans.

You have to LIVE. Can't take it with you.

You can be sensible and still have a treat once in a while. $5 is not a mortal sin worthy of pearl clutching, and refusing such a treat does not bestow virtue upon the sufferer. But a wise person will know to be sensible about those kinds of extravagances.

I think there's a difference in having grown up poor or in conditions where you don't have a lot as a child and, as an adult, ending up being a fiscally conservative adult versus growing up poor and not having a lot as a child and, as an adult, over-spending to impress others and constantly spoiling yourself with no financial boundaries.

The former may always worry about ending up poor again but barring something catastrophic, probably won't. The latter grew up poor, has no interest in developing financial skills and will end up poor again, impressing no one with anything other than their self destructive behavior.

Do you feel as if you're missing out by not spending more money? If not, there really isn't an issue. My family situation was the opposite of yours, my parents were well off and they never struggled. Throughout my late teens and 20s I was something of a spendthrift, and constantly getting myself into financial mishaps due to over-spending and meeting financial obligations/bills. Somewhere down the line, I made a conscious decision to eradicate unnecessary spending, simply because it wasn't giving me any kind of real benefit. There is a point where accruing items and simply spending money as a form of entertainment becomes meaningless and wasteful.

R17 - the problem is - it's not a treat for many people. We all know them - I HAVE TO HAVE MY STARBUCKS IN THE MORNING! Making a huge deal out of it, using their app, and all that bullshit.

And there are some people who only buy name-brand stuff, no matter what. Doesn't matter that the CVS/Walgreens brand of AA batteries are made by Duracell and are the same fucking battery.

There's nothing wrong with not throwing money down the drain OP, you should be proud of your spending habits. If you spent 10-20 bucks a day on incidentals like Starbucks or eating lunch out or whatever that comes to 4-7k a year which isn't chump change unless you're actually wealthy. People really don't think about that $5 here and there as adding up.

The amount of generational wealth transfer in America is staggering. taxes are also set up so that it hits people who work by up to 40% but inheritance taxes touch less than 10% of that amount.

This thread reminds me a bit of the thread(s) we had a few years back, when we frequently had anti fast food threads, especially against McDonalds.

There was one pitiful soul who was so sad and insulted that someone was criticizing McDonald's. Apparently, they only alloted themselves $2 for a hamburger and fries. They kept responding, "But it's my special TREAT!"

I mean, I think they wanted a ticker tape parade for being so frugal.

I'm sure the OP is "treating himself" every now and then as he has done all his life.

You are doing the right thing. The best advice I got from an older person gave me was to "save a nest egg because life is unpredictable." I have always abided by that because I never wanna have to rely on others who may not be there for me.

As people age they often get sicker and tire more easily. Thinking "I can always get a job to supplement" may not be an option. You may even need to pay someone to care for you.

These people telling you to spend spend spend will be the same ones laughing at you if you run out of money saying: "why didn't he save more?" "A fool and his money are soon departed!" "There is no fool like an old fool."

Everybody is willing to spend on the young twink but the old queen is most likely on her own!

Be smart!

My mother grew up very poor and my dad grew up pretty wealthy, but they were both pennypinchers, always buying store brands and not letting anyone have any treats, keeping the heat down so low it would be 55 degrees in the house in the mornings in the winter. I'd ask for nuts or cheeses or something for snacks, and I'd be told it's too expensive, have the generic brand saltines with some margarine on them after school. We'd get fruit in the summer once, when it was cheap because it was in season, then never again.

The thing is, now that I'm an adult, I'm pretty sure their refusal to buy brand name food or healthier food for me didn't save that much in the long run, and mom essentially threw the money away when she got sick, just out of spite. She didn't want any of her kids to get a cent because she grew up poor and why should we get anything?

Life's too short. I don't have much money and never will, but I get myself almonds to snack on. Brand name almonds! I buy the good coffee and the nice cheese, not the store brand powdered cardboard.

Dataloungers would have a fit about all of it, I'm sure, but buying these things isn't keeping me poor.

[quote]CVS/Walgreens brand of AA batteries are made by Duracell and are the same fucking battery

That doesn't seem to be true.

I was a single gay in my 20s and had a lot of older friends and/or partnered friends. All of them made a big fuss about being frugal, insisting I should pinch pennies, go thrifting, buy generics, etc.

The irony I could never quite understand was how these same people thought nothing of spending $100 on alcohol and another $50 on cigarettes every time they left the house.

R25 are you my sibling? LOL

R25 and R27 True!

It's often the ones claiming to be frugal waste the most money. The bottom line is people spend money on what they wanna spend it on.

[quote]I have more than a few friends who have 8-figure wealth who do the same.

R13, can you tell us more? Are these people with tens of millions of dollars in net worth? Inherited? Self-made?

Not challenging, just curious. I know some millionaires, but no 8-digit millionaires (that I'm aware of).

[quote]I was a single gay in my 20s and had a lot of older friends and/or partnered friends. All of them made a big fuss about being frugal, insisting I should pinch pennies, go thrifting, buy generics, etc.

When I was young I always had a lot of middle-aged and much older friends. Regardless of whether they had loads of money or had to be careful to stretch their resources, I learned that every one of them was at least a bit of a tightwad on some sorts of things and extravagant on other sorts. Most of them were pretty reasonable and had a sense of humor about their sometimes odd areas of "savings." None were at all extravagant about expendable things other than food and travel.

It was only once i quit drinking that I even considered the amount of money I'd spent on premium alcohol over 2-3 decades. Seriously, I could retire now on that money.

This is true of most gay men I know (who are not sober/in recovery).

Companies know that gay men spend a small fortune on alcohol, and market extensively toward us, in ways not everyone is aware of.

My husband and I grew up in poverty. We are on the verge of upper middle class now. But I still have old habits, like using very old things that have to be finagled to work or wearing clothes until they get holes. It's ridiculous, because we have the money to replace these things.

My daughter is growing up in a class different from me and I have to keep remembering that what was luxury to me is normal for her. She's grateful for what she gets, but I would have dropped dead if my parents got me a toy "just because".

The trouble I see is thinking of yourself as poor and perceiving being smart about money and keeping within your budget as making poor choices that keep you poor.

I’m very similar to you OP. I have plenty of money for now and the future (I’m 53) but still live like I’m poor. I drive a used Honda, and I never pick up dinner or drink tabs in group settings. I grocery shop daily so I can pick the items about to expire that are marked 50% or more off retail. I grew up being taught the value of a dollar, and never forgot it! My frugality started out as just acquiring enough for a 6 month emergency fund but I kept on going. The only splurge I have is travel and gifts for mom.

r4 = MC Hammer

I grew up very poor. Multiple generations crammed into tiny apartments in bad neighborhoods, living off government subsidies, everyone living paycheck to meager paycheck, few or no toys at holidays, very unstable life poor. I am now tenuously lower middle class, and it took me decades to get there with no support whatsoever, while my friends who were raised middle class all have nice houses their parents helped them pay for, went to better colleges their families saved up for, lived in nicer places while they worked their way up jobs their families introduced them to, and so on. I'm not unhappy with my current circumstances, but it's a fact that having advantages early in life pays off in the long run.

I grew up in a very frugal household.

I was trained to always by the cheapest item. My husband had to teach me to spend more and that quality matters. He forbade me from going to Ikea--thank goodness--We've been together a decade and without him, I'd likely still be shopping there. Now we buy furniture are moderately expensive places with an eye towards keeping them for at least 10-15 years.

We used to DREAM about living in a corridor!

I grew up lower-middle class and I can tell the difference between showing off that you might have wealth and really having wealth.

One way is cars. Once leasing started, so many lease (a.k.a. rent) cars they could never afford to buy. I don't find cars that alluring so I buy based on how long they will last--usually Japanese. My neighbors all have BMWs and such. We all have about the same income, I'm guessing because we live in similar houses. No way they can actually afford to buy those cars.

Poverty is definitely a slippery slope. You almost need someone to extend a rope to ever get out. And that rarely happens.

[quote] The thing is, now that I'm an adult, I'm pretty sure their refusal to buy brand name food or healthier food for me didn't save that much in the long run, and mom essentially threw the money away when she got sick, just out of spite. She didn't want any of her kids to get a cent because she grew up poor and why should we get anything?

My mom and her siblings grew up very poor. One of my aunts had a pretty spiteful attitude towards money, groceries, treats, or expenses when it came to her kids. She would make comments about how since my grandparents had no money for movies, zoo, musuems, carnivals etc she wasn't going to pay for her kids to experience those things. She was 14 years older than my mom and her kids were much older than me. There was an incident when I was 12 or 13, , my mom invited her on a shopping trip with us to pick up some food for a family reunion. We made a stop at a Target that had a snack bar in it. My mom was the type who would occasionally splurge on buying Icees or fountain drinks from the snack to drink. That day right before they were going to check out, my mom gave me cash to buy Icees or drinks and offered to buy my aunt something. My aunt flipped out at my mom for spending money on Icees. My mom told her that it was an occasional treat that didn't break the bank. We had to hear my aunt whine during the drive back to my parents' house about spending money on treats.

A few years ago, I told a friend about that incident. She told me about how when she was growing up her mom for awhile dated a guy who was a tightwad. He had kids from a previous marriage. My friend said her mom didn't have her spoiled, but was the type to occasionally splurge on a treat or a clothing item for her. Whenever they went places with the mom's ex tightwad boyfriend would bitch if my friend's mom occasionally offered to buy things like ice cream cones, drinks, or little souvenirs for the kids. My friend and I both said that kids shouldn't be spoiled, but the occasional

^^ I hit post too son, i meant to add that the "occasional treats are ok for kids"

Nope. I grew up lower middle class. I’m flying first-class right now, and paid for Wi-Fi to access this shitfest.

I agree with everything you said, OP. I'm the same BUT I'm not a penny pincher. I'm have money now but I loath those who love to call themselves "frugal" because half the time you're paying for their cheapness.

You are correct, R24. I have a nice SUV (that I bought used with very low mileage), and I have been able to travel quite a bit to places my parents would have never believed possible (Italy, Greece, England, Peru, etc.). I also have a nice house that is paid off so all of the saving and investing and working in a job that was soul-destroying worked out. My latest splurge was buying a painting by an artist I love at an estate sale yesterday. It was a third of what it sold for originally. There was a time where I would have never considered spending hundreds of dollars, though, on a painting.

The main thing is that I have to talk myself into doing such things because there is always a voice in my head telling me I should not be spending money on things that aren't the basics of life, i.e., groceries, utilities, gasoline, etc. I have zero interest in just throwing money around, but it would be nice to not have that thought of "doubting I am worth it" in those situations. I used to try to only spend $3.00 a day on lunch at the work cafeteria. It was like I didn't think I was worth splurging and having a $5.00 or $6.00 lunch. (I know...it's ridiculous; I have gotten better about it, just not completely, hence my original question.)

R44

Bear in mind that Datalounge content is blocked by Amtrak wifi.

My husband is cheap (frugal) and I am not. Like groceries: i have to eat, so I buy what I want. That doesn’t mean I purchase brand name versus generic all of the time.

OP, I am so much like you but as I have gotten older do wonder if I need to die with a pile of money in the bank. I do have a younger husband so it would be nice to leave something behind. I buy almost everything second hand. I have reached a point where I no longer worry about the price of groceries I buy and get what I want without thinking. Maybe that is a step in the right or wrong direction. I am also willing to spend money on travel but often pick my destination by which country is having the best deal on a ticket. Anyway, do what you want OP and don't worry so much about it.

As someone raised working class (and briefly, downright poor), I can recognize thee value in "frugality" but it's also important to avoid "thinking like a poor person" in other, more important ways.

For example, overcoming fear/aversion to risk. I invest and make my money work for me. I have family members and friends with (literally) hundreds of thousands of dollars sitting in bank accounts, earning negligible interest over the decades. Wealthy people understand how to put their money to work and/or they hire professionals to advise and do it for them. (For whatever reason, some of these same risk-averse people always assume real estate is always a good safe investment. In some cases, for some people, it's not.)

Similarly, one must be prepared to take an occasional career risk, eg, quitting a good job for the long-term goal of an even better one, investing in continuing education, looking for additional sources of income and not thinking like "a wage slave." Loyalty to one's employer is very working class. It's also obsolete.

It's up to you to educate yourself about all of this. Your working class background will not prepare you for wealth.

PS, one more biggie: your time is money.

Seems obvious, but some would prefer to drive across town and/or take an extra hour to save fifteen cents (or fifteen dollars, for that matter) on a single item. Or buy the cheapest possible version which will require replacement, (Ever notice how frequently working class America shops? A LOT.) My cleaning woman (in non-pandemic times) comes twice a month to clean my home. I could spend several hours doing the same job less well, or I could use that time to manage my own interests and generate many times what I pay her. And she appreciates the work.

No, you’re not being miserly.

I worked with a guy that’d buy 1 jar of peanut butter and a loaf of bread. That’s all he ate at work for lunch, he owned his own home at the age of 20.

My elderly roommate had lost $250K in the last crash and I’d come home and she’d be huddled under one lightbulb and the whole apartment dark.

THAT’S being stupid.

[quote] My husband is cheap (frugal) and I am not. Like groceries: i have to eat, so I buy what I want. That doesn’t mean I purchase brand name versus generic all of the time.

I'm kind of the same way. I'll sometimes buy generic brands. There was a really good blog a few years back that used to review various store brand products and would compare with name brand products.

OP, if you don't mind being asked, how much money do you have saved and invested that your advisor says you'll be "comfortable"? I'm nearing retirement age and trying to decide what "comfortable" means for me (and thus when I can take the plunge.) Thanks.

I know so many gays who got away from their poor, lower class families because they knew they were meant for better things. They went to big cities, for great educations, and have great jobs—while their families are still working minimum wage at home

That is true R55. Gays often have the odds stacked against them in every way and being gay was one more thing that could make life harder. I'm sure this gave many the drive to get out of their circumstances which resulted in many gays some huge innate financial advantages over most other people.

- Most gays have not married so they never had to spring for wedding (or divorce) expenses and are not paying alimony to a former spouse.

- Most gays have not had the cost of raising kids, much less sending several kids to college.

- Most gays have not had to "pursue" a spouse, which takes time and money. Most dates for young guys is just fucking (or at most going dutch). They were free to pocket "dating" money and spend their time pursuing their education and career. And of course investing in a career meant a higher salary.

The bottom line is if you are a gay man who has not been grossly irresponsible with your money then you should be able to retire at a decent age and live "comfortably" for the rest of your life.

r56, all while getting your holes satisfied!

[quote]My elderly roommate had lost $250K in the last crash and I’d come home and she’d be huddled under one lightbulb and the whole apartment dark.

That’s just stupidity. An “elderly” person shouldn’t be heavily invested in the stock market. She deserves her dark apartment.

R54, I could tell you but I don't think it would be really relevant for your situation because it is really about the ratio of investments to annual expenses. I am fortunate to have my house and car paid off and live in a relatively low cost area of the country. I have kept track of all of my expenses/money going out for years so I am very sure of my data. What I can tell you that might be helpful is that my annual expenses are 1.5% of my current investments (stocks/bonds/cash only; not counting house and other hard assets). Since the goal is to have your annual expenses be no more than 5% of your investments, that's why I am in good shape. Hopefully.

R57 Right? That is the most important thing - enjoying your life without being bogged down by other people's problems! When married friends complain about a spouse or kids swallowing all their disposable income, I smile empathetically as I think about all the cum I am gonna swallow tonight.

R30, I had a mind a three friends whom I knew well and saw often, from weekly to once a month. All inherited their money, though in one case it was less from his birth family than from a boyfriend; he kept the money in investments and lived off a.fairly modest salary for a quarter century or so, so a good sum that became a great sum. One of the others had an industrial fortune; the other had money from a family that had money, no very specific source other that accumulated investments, property, and interest in a few businesses. Two had government jobs and kept low profiles, not to be too showy.

Store brands (generic) are sometimes really good. A lot of us are caught in the mindset that generic brands are always inferior and that's not true anymore.

OP, if you're looking for an area to splurge, I would say anything that has to do with your health. Fruits, vegetables, good health insurance w/a low deductible, good dental car, etc.

I grew up in a frugal household and yes, I do pick up the tab sometimes. Not if it's a large group, but if it's just me and a friend, I will pay sometimes.

My sister came with me shopping once and got almost outraged at the things in my shopping cart. Things that I could get cheaper at another store. I told her that my time was valuable. I felt bad for her that her thinking was so limited.

[quote]Store brands (generic) are sometimes really good.

Dollar store coffee filters: $1.00 Store brand: $4.00

I buy some name brand items (Hellmans/Best Foods), but much of the time there's not a lot of difference.

OP/R59 - Thank you, that is very helpful. I guess I just need to do more work on figuring out my exact expenses for each year and how they would look in retirement, then compare those expenses to my total assets. I find these predictions a little difficult in that I carry a lot of expenses for both my husband and myself because he works in an industry where he doesn't get paid cash on a routine basis, but then gets a huge lump sum that covers years of expenses and pays me back for his half of everything. So "budgeting" is a little more complicated, and I was just looking for some easy comfort from absolute numbers rather than the ratio you wisely suggest. Thanks for your thoughts.

I came from an upper middle class family, but my parents drilled into me the importance of saving. When I got my first job in high school, I was paid a very nominal amount and slowly put away a miniscule amount each month. I think that started my adventures in savings and investments.

My first job out of college paid so little that I lived on tuna noodle casserole for two years-every single day, stretching it as far as I could . I can't stand the smell of t/n casserole 50 years later. I was still able to put a little bit of money aside in those days.

Now, I'm more than comfortable, retired at age 47, have my own beachfront home, plenty of investments and real estate. I buy quality food and can go on a trip anytime I like. I'm set for life. I do watch my money very carefully, don't over spend, and am still socking away money every month. I truly fear losing all that I've worked for, so I stick to a budget every month. My "fun money" goes to furniture, art and travel.

What gets me is my housekeeper. She spends every penny that she gets. She drives a new big black pickup truck and lives in a four bedroom house that she cannot afford to rent. She works part-time for me and has two other jobs, one about 50 miles away, 100 miles a day, and is now worried about being able to fill up the tank, but she is unwilling to sell her truck and get a car with good gas mileage. She lives from paycheck-paycheck and once she gets a check she goes right out and buys clothes and things for her house, at $1500/mo rent. She can afford neither the house or the truck. She just started her first bank account at age 54, and she just got her first credit card, but that's already maxed out. She just bought a 4-person hot tub, but she doesn't have enough money for food sometimes.

She also has a slightly mentally handicapped son and has not put away a dime for his care after she dies He gets money from the state because of his disabilities, but he spends it on things like going to Las Vegas to gamble and investing online in some crazy investment scheme, where they keep any money you've made (not re-invested, so where is it? Neither my housekeeper or her son knows exactly where his money is being held. I keep telling her that money is for his care/food, etc., but he spends it on nonsense. I also tell her that he's probably being scammed. They go to better restaurants than I do at least a couple of times a week, and then has to tell her landlord that she can't pay the full rent at the first of the month.

I can't imagine being so unconcerned about your future and that of your mentally handicapped son. I worry about when she can no longer work. What will they do? And what will her son do after she dies? He will be penniless. She just doesn't see what a trap she's building for herself.

If he's penniless "the state will pick up the bill" is her mindset.

[quote]If he's penniless "the state will pick up the bill" is her mindset.

This is why people vote for Republicans.

The problem I keep seeing here is that many of you aren't thinking of the cost of care in your old age. Are you planning in-home care or going to a retirement home, then onto critical elder care when you can no longer do anything for yourself?

I spent well over $1.5MM for my mother's care over 20 years, first having in-home care, then critical care. Those prices will continue to grow, so unless you plan on living in a cardboard box, start saving NOW.

Like R67, I'm was born into wealthy, Mayflower family. Some of my ancestor's home are parks and national historic sites. My name is on campus buildings across the North East. My family has lived frugally for 2 to 3 generations. I'm in the 3rd generation branch of frugal living . My investments are only mid 7 figures. My trust at 21 was only 6 figures. I'm not like the new rich. What I can't understand are my household staff, who can't seem to manage money. Always in debt, always pissing away any cash, living paycheck to paycheck. I guess that's just how peasants live. I'm glad I'm so evolved and will never have the miserable lives of the losers and the poor.

R67 reads like a bad, heavy handed Dorothy Parker short story. Which is redundant.

I don't think the world is as black and white as that. Of my four siblings born of working class Brooklyn people, two of us have college degrees and all of us are living a middle class existence above my parents before the 1970s. Something happened to the lower to middle class during that time that I have never found a good explanation. Before then a family could be taken care of well on only a father's wage. Something changed after that and American life changed.

The smartest and truly the best people I know are cautious with money so that they have more to give to charity.

Get off the cross R74. Poor people need the wood.

If anyone sincerely cares about income inequality in America, "being cautious with money so they can give more to charity" is the least effective way to actually make a difference.

First I congratulate r13 on the most reasoned, sensible finance-related post perhaps ever on Datalounge.

Money is a tool, not a goal. You're going to get older, retire, and likely get older still. You will have a certain amount of money (SS, qualified plan, other savings) from which you'll draw to live during those years. No reason to compare yourself to anyone else. No matter how large or small that amount of money is, you'll have to make it work. And you will.

UNTIL you need assisted care as mentioned above. That will blow through what you have in far less time than you'd imagine, even if you have Long Term Care insurance. A private room in a nice-ish nursing home costs on average $290 per day, or $8,821 per month. Of course they'll gladly take your Social Security but after savings are depleted, what are you going to do? It's Medicaid for you, honey, and the hassle of keeping receipts and qualifying for it is unreal. (Hint: Turn everything over to someone you trust as soon as you sense the need.) I don't need to go into the horrors of the Medicaid level of care. You're well aware.

I guess my point is, it's all a crapshoot no matter what you do.

there is an article today in Bloomberg that is the most anti-capitalist thing I've ever seen in a financial newspaper. Found it through link on Drudge.

Basically said the top 1% is sucking the bottom 90% dry by keeping their money stashed away while also investing in banks and financial firms that then loan money to the bottom 90% at rates that escalate the poorer someone is.

Never forget, the mafia loan sharks used to charge about 15% APR and its now totally normal for a credit card company to charge 22-24% APR. Yes, a person would be stupid to spend on that card frivolously. But medical care and transportation aren't frivolous and lots of people get smacked with those charges. I just went to get my teeth cleaned and checked at a dental school and have about 5k in dental work to do--at dental school prices. Would be double at a regular dentist. (I go to the dental school because i have the time and I decided it was better to have multiple dentists deciding what was necessary--dentistry is a lot more speculative than people think under the best circumstances)

But do remember only 15% of Americans over 85 live in nursing homes. Most stay in their homes until the very end and that is often with bringing in the hospice. We can over plan and worry about a future most of us will never have.

[R71]

Ha! You've got your name all over the east coast, and I've got my name all over the west coast. We have the country covered!

Damn! All the posts on this thread are so long!

Yes R81. Once their holes have been empty for more than a decade - old white gay men can only talk about money, furniture and recipes. They disperse dry mouth advice just like some old aunt they used to avoid.

R82 HAHAHA... I'm exercising and almost fell off the treadmill!

[R71]

I never said I was from a wealthy Mayflower family. My grandfather was an immigrant and was a fisherman for a living. I worked for every penny that I've got, and still continue to save more. I'm sorry that this triggers you. I've been a salesperson in a clothing store, worked for a florist and at a stationery store, a reporter and, finally the owner of my own small businesses. That allowed me to retire early and comfortably.

There is nothing that you can say that would make me feel guilty for having what I worked so hard to achieve for so many years. And no, I didn't get financial help from my parents. I climbed up the ladder, step by step.

I see quite a bit of jealousy in your post. You could have done exactly the same things as I did, and then you'd be in the financial position that I'm in today. You only have yourself to blame for your financial position today.

[R71]

If possible, start gifting the full amount allowed ($15,000) each year to family or whoever you want to leave your assets to when you die. If you do this for 10 years or so, this will greatly reduce their inheritance taxes. To just give it all away in a will is just foolish, as your relatives will have to pay inheritance taxes at between 10-20% depending on the state they live in.

See, [R71], if you educate yourself on taxes and investments, you may actually have a chance on saving some money.

^ 20+ years with nothing in the holes.

[R71]

Ok, now I understand. You're 12 years old. ^^^^^^^^^^

I hate a miser mentality. Have a friend who has about $10 mil and his home is always cold because he stints on the heating. Aaah!

Myself: I don’t generally bother about price tags. Life is short, and if I want something I get it. That said, I just don’t need STUFF for the sake of it. In the last two years, I think my only purchases have been two pairs of socks! Dining out bores the tits off me, as do theatre and concerts. Haven’t been to a cinema in years, and the last time I turned on the TV was Markle’s wedding. So even though I quit work years ago, I guess it’s no wonder money is never a worry. The idea that gay men are prime consumers is so infantilising.

[R79]

Most people stay in their homes because they and their family can't afford the $100,000 to $120,000 a month to live in a retirement community or critical care unit. Yes, it's wonderful to have your loved one at home as long as possible, but in many cases, the elderly have medical issues where specialized care is necessary, and that can, in some circumstances, last for years. Some illnesses or disabilities can't be taken care of at home.

So, if you don't plan ahead for the worst (but hope for the best), you could be in for a very expensive surprise. Isn't it better to live without worry about how you're going to financially pay for care for your partner, parents and yourself?

A friend who works in critical care says the lives of those he manages are so awful there is no way he won’t top himself if he gets incapacitated, and advises the same to everyone. So there’s no need to set aside several million for future care just so someone can wipe your arse and a care corporation can get richer.

[R77] Yep, you understand about prices of assisted care. On top of your $10,000-$12,000/mo, need a Bandaid? That's $20.00. Need some gauze for a wound? That's $55.00. and on and on and on, so add a lot to the basic rate. Then add in the expenses not covered by insurance.

[R89]

I guess I was lucky in finding a wonderful care facility for my mother. The nurses were so kind and compassionate, and they took such great care of my mother. Mom was still able to talk when she first went in, so she'd have told me if something was wrong. Near the end, I was able to move into a bungalow on the care home property, so I was there almost every minute, and could watch what they were doing, or not doing. These people were so kind, that five years after my mother passed, they still call every once in awhile just to say hello.

Of course they liked me because I'd help them with everything from transferring a patient (bed to commode), and back, changing sheets with my mother in the bed, hair washing and bathing in bed, going for supplies, and generally being an assisting nurse, all of which I knew how to do because I'd done all of that on my own before she went into assisted living. If the nurses looked like they were swamped, I just took over her care until they could get there. Might as well help than just sit there.

[quote]Ever notice how frequently working class America shops? A LOT.

This is so true r51, when I wasn't making much money at all I was at a shop three or four times a week, and it took me several months but I finally realized I was often buying things to replace something cheap I'd just bought weeks earlier. I remember going through about four brands and sizes of fabric softener before I realized I had to buy a small bottle of the brand name or else I wouldn't use it fast enough and it would go bad.

Nowadays even the brand name is bad a significant amount of time, though. I guess I'm going to have to change to a luxury brand of fabric softener, if I can even figure out what that is.

I'm so glad I read this thread, I've always been curious about The Poors.

If I like something I get it. I try not to overpay, but if I do, I won't stress over it. Life is too short!

Ever notice how frequently Americans buy stupid shit they don't need or don't use?

Fabric softener. Dryer sheets. Pumpkin spice dryer sheets. Air fresheners. Febreeze. Vitamins. Swiffers and steam mops. Deep fryers. Air fryers. Panini presses and 100 kitchen things that sit unused. Lemon juice in a bottle. 50 kinds of "wipes."

The poorer they are, the more of this shit they have. And storage unit rentals in which to store all the overflow of worthless stuff.

R94, I think everyone goes thru a "shit buying stage" but for most of us it is short-lived. What's pathetic is people who can't stop buying shit. These future hoarders have a house they can barely move around in because it is so full of shit they don't use - yet they keep buying more!

Really good things: quality furnishings, art, etc. are prohibitively expensive to working class people, so they tend to fill their homes with disposable crap instead.

Minimalism is an aesthetic that only rich people embrace, for the most part.

Poor people don't know how to throw shit away! They focus on how much they paid for it versus whether they still need it.

Marry me, r94 (but only if you're another guy).

Oh, R98, I see right through you. You only want me for my Microwave S'Mores Maker™!

I don't mean to interrupt your little self-love session r94, but I do have to wonder why you didn't have the guts to just insult me for being a poor who buys fabric softener, and instead tried to gussy it up as deep insight, only to completely flub it.

You cannot possibly believe that dryer sheets or lemon juice are useless, and that "the poors" have loads of that stuff sitting around unused in their homes.

If you really do sit around on the weekends chuckling to yourself at the mental image of poors in their hovels, wearing potato sacks for clothes, surrounded by 100 bottles of ReaLemon 100% Lemon Juice (tm), then good luck to you and your therapist.

Miss R100 has STATED HER BOUNDARIES!

See, if you'd just done something simple like r101 in the first place, you wouldn't have looked like a try-hard. When in doubt, just call someone a fat whore and move on.

[quote]You cannot possibly believe that dryer sheets or lemon juice are useless

I can't think of a more useless product than dryer sheets, unless your objective is to make your clothing and, by extension, yourself, stink out loud. I can't stand that smell. And it has nothing to do with income level, either real or perceived.

I dated a guy who grew up in Bethesda, MD—no outpost of the lower class—who was absolutely addicted to dryer sheets. He was beautiful. He had a large and perfect penis, and knew how to use it. But I could not get past the stench of his laundry products. Even naked, he reeked.

I had to have him over to my house rather than go to his place, as he also stunk that up with Glade plug-ins. And I had to shower him off before we could have sex. Even his penis reeked. His ball sweat was overpowered by the stench of Bounce.

Ultimately, I decided I couldn't go on with him any longer. Procter & Gamble could have him back. It was too bad. He was a funny, attractive homo. But stinking was more important than fucking.

Whaddya gonna do?

Not r94, btw (though I may have asked him to marry me in r98).

Sending kudos & kisses to R94

I grew up solidly middle class, but my parents were frugal as hell. As the eldest, I both rebelled against and subliminated many of their penny pinching tactics. I will buy high end furniture and linen, because that just seems logical, but I buy new clothes only at the end of the season when they are deeply discounted. I love shopping at thrift stores. I repair appliances whenever possible - my washing machine, fridge and stove are over twenty years old and have travelled with me through 4 states only because my job paid for moving expenses and it was cheaper to take them than replace them. I fly overseas in business class, but cheapest economy on local flights. I’ve never bought a new car in my life, but I do own two pre-owned luxury cars (ones a convertible for summer, the other an all wheel drive for winter). The only time I buy Starbucks coffee and stuff like that is when I am traveling and even then I start my journey with a thermos of homemade coffee and a cooler full of sandwiches and snacks on the seat beside me. I find it easier to just hand wash work shirts and underwear every evening after my shower (thanks, Mom!) and allow to air dry than to do laundry more than twice a month. I iron while watching tv. But I pay for my bedsheets and blankets to be picked up and professionally cleaned,

I never thought we would have a troll that would hissssssssssssss over dryer sheets.

Being poor is just a bad spiral. You don't have a car, so you shop at convenience-type stores (walking distance), high prices and no produce. You can't afford to buy large quantities (at a discount), so you pay pay pay every time for a small quantity. Your time is also spent shopping (disproportionately) because you're not stocking up.

I'm not rich, but I have a car and stock up on everyday stuff. When Coronavirus hit, I was actually OK / not bad. No, I'm not a doomsday prepper with loads of stuff in a basement. I did have lots of toilet paper and stuff like pasta and cereal, though.

The quick answer to this is NO. Someone who starts young with the determination to get out of poverty can absolutely do it. It's not an incredibly high percentage of people though.

Childhood poverty never really leaves you. Cary Grant while being one of the highest paid stars in Hollywood use to replace 60WW lightbulbs with 10WW. He use to unroll 2 ply toilet paper to make two rolls. He would pocket sugar and ketchup packets at restaurants. He charged fans a quarter for his autograph. It's a pathology.

My mom would take all those packets from the table as well. If we were at a restaurant that gave you a basket of bread before the meal, she'd start gobbling that and be full before her dinner was served. Then, she'd take home her dinner leftovers plus whatever bread was in the basket, still. She might even ask the server for more bread. I think she just liked bread, too.

I’m same way when it comes to paying for things. I’m very comfortable financially in my retirement but the penny-pinching I blame on my Scottish ancestors.

Not to pick on R110's mom, but that story is a good metaphor for the "poor mindset."

[quote]a basket of bread before the meal, she'd start gobbling that and be full before her dinner was served. Then, she'd take home her dinner leftovers plus whatever bread was in the basket, still.

Focusing on the "free" unlimited bread vs actually enjoying the meal you ordered (and are paying for) at the time it's served.

Speaking of in store brands - I would buy any of Trader Joe's in house brands. Same thing with Costco.

money and the lack of money can really do a number on some people.

You're right, R112. It was a poor person's mindset to fill up on free bread and ruin your appetite for dinner. She always felt bad that her appetite was gone. I felt bad for her as well.

[quote]What gets me is my housekeeper. She spends every penny that she gets. She drives a new big black pickup truck and lives in a four bedroom house that she cannot afford to rent. She works part-time for me and has two other jobs, one about 50 miles away, 100 miles a day, and is now worried about being able to fill up the tank, but she is unwilling to sell her truck and get a car with good gas mileage. She lives from paycheck-paycheck and once she gets a check she goes right out and buys clothes and things for her house, at $1500/mo rent. She can afford neither the house or the truck. She just started her first bank account at age 54, and she just got her first credit card, but that's already maxed out. She just bought a 4-person hot tub, but she doesn't have enough money for food sometimes.

[quote] She also has a slightly mentally handicapped son and has not put away a dime for his care after she dies He gets money from the state because of his disabilities, but he spends it on things like going to Las Vegas to gamble and investing online in some crazy investment scheme, where they keep any money you've made (not re-invested, so where is it? Neither my housekeeper or her son knows exactly where his money is being held. I keep telling her that money is for his care/food, etc., but he spends it on nonsense. I also tell her that he's probably being scammed. They go to better restaurants than I do at least a couple of times a week, and then has to tell her landlord that she can't pay the full rent at the first of the month.

I know several people like that. They spend money like crazy and drive gas guzzler vehicles that they can't really afford. My cousin and his wife are both examples of this. They spend money like crazy and at one point they owned a gas guzzling Ram truck and they used to bitch about how much it cost to fill up. That truck eventually got repoed. My cousin started using the wife's van and the wife who was working part time was posting on Facebook about trying to find a used car to get work. Most people in the family already knew about their history of being bad with money. One of my aunts who lived in the same town suggested that she use the public bus system which had a stop near their house and one down the street from the wife's workplace. My cousin's wife said that the bus was for "low lifes and she didn't want to look poor." A few months later, she had a used car and my relatives said a few months later the car was gone. They figured it got repoed like the truck did.

I have a friend who is a retired social worker and she worked with disabled people and their families. She said there always some clients and client families who couldn't manage money well and they would refuse services like financial planning classes, or taking with financial planners who specialize in working with people who are disabled. My friend retired from social work in 2019. When the pandemic hit, former clients and/or their parents were contacting her via email and phone to see if she could refer them to financial planners or other services. She had the feeling that they were too embarrassed to seek help from their current case managers or social workers..

Your story from "a friend" who is a social worker - is complete bullshit R116. Poor people do not contact retired social workers asking for FINANCIAL PLANNERS because we all almost died during COVID. Why do ancient gays and strange women shut ins post these no sex, no children, no life, no POC morality tales on this site? You're particularly nutty and egregious R116 - judging by your other posts.

Your stories have no ring of truth or real life to them. Social Workers don't usually recommend financial planners, nor would they mention it to someone as judgemental as you.

Who makes a RAM? Google it quick. Cuz that's not how people usually refer to it. You have your fantasies mixed up. Ha. You're a fool. Of course lots of people DO drive that vehicle and complain about the cost of gas. What has that got to do with your pathetic life?

"I don't think of myself as cheap and I don't think it is a bad thing to still watch what I spend money on"

Well that's it right there. Frugality never hurts, it frequently helps.

I've never heard of case workers recommending financial advisors to poverty level caregivers in my life. R116 is one of weirdest ESTs I've seen in a while.

Was just reading an article that says that the average renter in the United States can only save about $500 per year. Homeownership has traditionally been the means of building wealth. 75% of whites own their homes and 42% of black people do.

I didn't know there was something called a "seller's assist" that occurs when houses sell sometimes. It's not happening these days. the only people getting into houses are those who have the cash to overbid and then more money to fix up the properties, since inspections and seller fixes are out the window as well

My husband and I had solidly upper middle class childhoods with professional parents. Both of us graduated from good schools and eventually ended up in corporate life. Currently our salaries and assets are pushing the envelope to the upper 5%. Looking back, I realize how lucky we both were and the privilege we had. It didn’t feel like it when we were putting in 60 hour weeks early in our careers though. Also we’re both over 6 foot tall, which my short friend says is another bestowed privilege. So while we worked hard like we were supposed to, there was never any other expectation than success. I get that it is not quite the same now.

Of course it's the same now. Tall handsome ivy leaguers can have success if they go corporate.

To those who think taking care of your elderly loved ones at home is easy, be sure that you can pick up 170 lbs of weight or whatever your loved one weighs. You'll be lifting or moving that person several times a day. The major reason that caregivers stop doing care work is that their backs have been ruined by lifting and moving their patients. Then, what are you going to do when you can no longer lift them? Yep, that's when you finally decide to get professional care, but it's too late, as your back is now ruined.

Also , have fun wiping their asses and dumping and cleaning and bleaching the commode. Another fun thing is giving meds every four hours, 24 hours a day, usually pain meds. That means 10 a.m., 2 p.m. 6 pm. 10 p.m., 2 a.m., 6 a.m., etc. With all of the other duties, when will you get a decent night's sleep?

In-home care is like having a new baby, but 70-year-olds don't have the stamina or strength that young parents do.

OP is just humble bragging. Heaven forbid OP, you shouldn't buy that $4 treat and not believe your advisor.

This thread is filled with typical DL brags, which means not even bothering to be humble. And then the ESTs. I tried some very heavy satire and it just ticked off the role players.

[R125]

Then your "satire" wasn't very good. That wasn't satire. Satire means wit, and you have none. It was pure jealousy.

Role players? Do you really believe that nobody on here has any money, just because you don't? You posts reek of jealousy and spitefulness, [R79] from yesterday and [R125] from today. You might consider dropping the "satire" and actually learning the basics of finance. I had to correct you on how to disperse your assets by gifting before you die to reduce inheritance tax, but I gather now that you have no assets to worry about. I'm also can see from the weakness of your other posts that you don't understand it.

Oh honey, I spent 5 years in T&E at Chase Private Bank and another 5 at Lombard Odier. And I don't talk smack about my "housekeeper".

I guess your days I working in a bank left you without the ability to comprehend my post. I said I was worried about my housekeeper and what will happen to her in her old age, and what will happen to her disabled son. If you can't understand compassion, then that's on you.

Again, your jealousy and spitefulness has emerged, and it's doing you no favors.

PS If you worked in a bank at that level, as you SAY you did, you'd know all about gifting to reduce inheritance taxes. Gotcha on that one, huh!

Dead is dead, either way R126. Are you loved? Will anyone even notice when you're gone.

Have money, spend money. Waste money. Who fucking cares? You can't control your destiny. It's nice to be prepared for illness and not be poor. But who have you had to look after in your life other than your pets and yourself? No one. Skin care and douching is your equivalent of raising a child. Oh the turmoils of treating STDs and still keeping a freshly clean hole! Planning trips is so stressful. Parents are demanding! One must plan ahead, be cheap but invest in good linens. Yikes. Old gays are unbelievably shameful. What happened to the bohemian iconoclasts and great artists and queer revolutionaries? They have a name. Even if they were wiped out by a plague. Killed by lovers or lived and died in humble but lively surroundings. Money and the talk of money is necessary, but most always boring and soul crushing.

That's why poor people eat out or have huge cable bills or get their nails done. Ain't nothing wrong with enjoying something when you're pretty sure you'll never have anything in the bank.

Many of us are successful enough. No need to be so fucking boring and nursey about it. Eesh.

You're not worried about your housekeeper or her disabled son R128. It's not even convincing as a fallacy.

Eesh to all of you. Have another drink or start one of your Joan Crawford threads. Or one of your Saturday night special race baiting scenarios. Leave living breathing fucking hopeful people alone. I just spent $200 on 5 new pair of briefs. OoowweeEEE I look good. And I can sell em for more later, trust me.

[R129]

I believe you need therapy. Your posts are not normal.

You're lumping someone else's posts in with mine, sweetie. And my post about watered-down Mayflower wealth was snarky fiction. I don't know who you are trying to advice about wealth transfer but several decades ago I was an expert in GSTTs and international transfer tax treaties.

Anyone posting about their status way above the poor, in this THIS thread, has missed the fil conducteur. In my honest opinion. And your lengthy description of your "housekeeper"'s stereotypical financial recklessness dooming her forever to the precarious class is tone deaf in this thread. In my opinion.

My posts are above your pay grade R130. You won't ever afford me either. Go back to whatever it is you pretend to do.

Just continue to ramble on [R132] with these stories of yours. You're boring, jealous and spiteful. Again, I believe that you need mental help.

I don't have a "pay grade," which implies a salary, like you had to live on. " Again, if you worked at the level of banking that you SAY you've worked at, you wouldn't be discussing pay grade. I don't have a "pay grade." I have investments.

I'm sorry that you're so invested in trying to act above your "pay grade."

R132 isn't me, the ex banker, gramps! More than one person isn't having your bullshit.

If you're so compassionate about your "housekeeper"

1) pay her SS

2) buy her family health care

3) give her a raise and match the raise and put both in an IRA for her

4) consider a nice bequest, or one for her children. Control it through a trustee if you think she's so irresponsible. But she'll be very grateful.

[quote] Skin care and douching is your equivalent of raising a child.

There is no need to lash out at the entire community, R129. Doesn't every gay man's life revolve around these things, rich or poor?

"I've never heard of case workers recommending financial advisors to poverty level caregivers in my life."

I don't think that the case worker was going to refer them to her Edward Jones guy, I think what that person meant was either classes in basic financial management, or someone who could give basic advice one-on-one. I hope such people exist, because yes, some people don't understand basic financial management.

I also think some people don't want to understand basic financial management, because that would mean facing the brutal truth that they're poor and are going to stay there. Others take financial irresponsibility to the level of mental illness, and I've seen this in real life. Some people find that spending makes them very happy and they'll use spending as a quick fix when they're unhappy. And when the bills come in they get unhappy and then they go out and spend more.. I knew someone like this. She was from a wealthy family, I mean she wasn't like Elton John with more money than she could ever spend, but very well off. And she still managed to strain the family finances. There were problems, but she couldn't stop.

r119, they got the idea for their EST from the guy at r71 who was obviously joking about being from a Mayflower family. I notice this happens a lot, we get someone making a joke post like r71 did and either someone makes their own EST out of it, or a bunch of people cannot be convinced it's a joke. Sometimes both!

That happens a lot r125, I think people only read the first few words so they didn't get to the end of your post where it was so obviously satire even the dimmest bulb should have realized it.

Indeed, as I ALWAYS reminded my very own mother!

I hear you R103 about the 'deodourising' smells foisted on consumers now. Some of the worst are washing powder and bin liner scents. One has to really hunt now for bin liners that DON'T contain them, otherwise they stink out the house. I suspect most people's sense of smell has become dulled by being saturated in household products where they leak from everywhere. I love the natural delicate smells of the outdoors and male bodies.

[quote] I just spent $200 on 5 new pair of briefs.

Such extravagance R129! We're quite thrilled to the marrow. Presumably you're 'saving up' for a pair of Derek Rose boxers ($225 a pop).

I used Persil based on recommendations in a thread about detergents, and that is easily the strongest smelling detergent I have ever encountered. The whole house smells like Persil as the load washes, even after rinsing and drying.

Even when I used dryer sheets for static cling they never smelled like that. I use wool dryer balls these days and they work great, but I need to add a fragrance free dryer sheet for towels and sheets or else I risk death from static zaps.

Threads like these highlight how big the wealth gap seems to be getting. That's not a good thing.

This thread has taken a weird turn into discussions about fabric softeners, how to attain wealth, and whether or not poor people are capable of following basic financial skills in order to build wealth.

While those all may be worthwhile discussions (although, honestly, there is no way the fabric softener issue is ever going to be worth discussing), the premise of the original topic is based on accepting the fact that some people who grew up poor or lower middle class HAVE successfully navigated life to the point where they are financially comfortable (from an independent financial advisor's viewpoint). It's just that, after a life time of following the rules it takes to gain the sought-for wealth like not spending money on frivolous items, saving religiously, etc., once you reach the destination, how do you let go of strictly adhering to the rules that got you there? When you have spent a lifetime of saving, how do you successfully switch your mindset to not worry about saving any more and, instead, enjoy spending what you have because you aren't going to outlive it?

I’ve seen it go either way, where the person either goes through money like water or are like the OP.

I am closer to the OP. my partner and I recently retired (quite early for me). Our separate financial advisors insist we will be in great shape. My partner is starting to talk as though we are poor, and if I shared what we have between the two of us, most here would think of rich.

But it’s a real adjustment for me to no longer have money coming in. I just scheduled my first real vacation in decades and it feels like I’m throwing money away.

Very rarely do poor people become poor again. They will do whatever it takes. You can take some risks when you are young. But when you get old you better hold keep your money as "Hands off" as an old bitch's pussy!

"It's just that, after a life time of following the rules it takes to gain the sought-for wealth like not spending money on frivolous items, saving religiously, etc.,"

I'm approaching that position, but only as I'm getting close to retirement age, and have to start thinking about how a childless person can pay for elder care in their declining years. Plus I'm getting more worried about my own health and my ability to work as long as I've planned, not to mention the political and economic future of my country. So now the worry isn't just "Can I afford a condo in a place I like", it's "Can I afford to start over after emmigrating, and buy a condo in another country?".

Honestly, I don't think the financial worries every stop, if you have the sense to take your personal finances seriously. Even if you're seriously rich, there's always going to be worries about how to protect yourself from economic crashes or dishonest business managers.

R147 The list of "terribles" could go on and on. I think about people like the late Bernie Madoff. What an asshole to steal people's life savings like that just so he could have MORE money! I think you have to invest and diversify your whole life, but as you get older you just cannot invest as much. You gotta keep some cash on hand. Then you gotta worry about the banks too. Anything can happen. You can't be a worry wart though. Do the best you can and try not to freak out. Chances are, you'll be ok.

It’s a good idea to have a financial advisor/planner to map out a strategy. It’s easy to think that $x million is a ton of money but not realize how quickly you can drain it.

Prior to retiring, my financial advisor and I had several meetings then had a few more after I left work, and that’s helped me feel much more comfortable that we have a well-thought-out and realistic plan and so long as I don’t go crazy, I will be fine. I’m still a bit concerned that once my income ends (I still have money coming in for a while) I will be a hyperventilating mess!

Well that's the thing about having been poor and desperate, you know it CAN happen to you.

Over the years I've worked with a ton of people believe that they'll always be fine, that they're great with money and they've handled things so well that they'll be fine for generations, and of course quite a few of those people were or are dickwads who blame the poor for being poor because they didn't make the choice to be white, middle-class, and enrolled in good schools like themselves. Some of these people lost houses in the crash of 2008, some didn't and are still confident that poverty will never happen to them. Well, it's already happened to me, I've been down to my last few hundred bucks and with no family who'd give me a dime, I'm okay for now but I'll never be able to believe that I'll always be fine.

The secret to eldergay happiness is to think about others, rather than self.

Gofund Kevin Sessums. Your heart and burdens will lift! :-)

R150 So you are just gonna constantly worry about it for the rest of your life? My point was because you know it CAN happen to you, then you will be extra vigilant. That vigilance will make it less likely for you to be poor again. The rich White people who never experienced any real adversity are ripe for a reversal of fortune. It happens (not often because the system continues to protect them with a GAZILLION safety nets - including tax benefits... but I digress) but it is less likely. The working class people (especially those who are Black or Brown) must be extra vigilant. I know it is hard, but you cannot spend your life worrying.

Let's be honest. Financial planners are only making educated guesses. Sure you should consult with them, but it is ultimately you who has to make the decisions.

While often times, the greater the risk means the greater the reward, sometimes a big risk can cause you to lose it all. Do what is comfortable for YOU! What can you afford to lose? The bottom line is that no matter what any "planner" tells you, if you are an older working class person (who has been poor), you cannot take as many risks with your money as everyone else can. You just can't. You have to be satisfied with that and move along.

"[R150] So you are just gonna constantly worry about it for the rest of your life? "

Oh, I don't spend my life worrying, and I have the material goods I need, most of what I want, and am totally willing to splurge on stuff I really want.

But no, those of us who've been poor can never forget it. I was raised by parents who went from okay to dirt poor to prosperous, and I've been prosperous, dirt poor, and prosperous again, and none of that will never really leave me. What can I say, there are negative experiences that ruin your life, there are negative experiences you get over, and then there's the negative experiences that profoundly effect your life. They don't dominate your existence or take over your life, but they never go away.

[quote] Very rarely do poor people become poor again.

Lottery winners who lost it all.

I sometimes think of all the middle-aged and older gay on Data Lounge who draw the short straw and have to take care of Mother for umpteen years, or both parents...and it doesn't seem like a lot of these gay men pressed into looking after their parents have a love of intersection with those who have $X millions in savings and who fret/boast that they worry that it won't be enough.

What happens to the gay men who left shitty jobs where they had shitty salaries, no benefits, and no savings to give their mothers sponge baths and cart them around to doctors' appointments for 6, 12, 18 years. Unless Mother was rich, her son is going to be in a very hard place and who will make a sacrifice of years of time to look after him if his health fails.

Infirmity in old age happens across classes, but for people who don't have a lot, and whose sons end up as caretakers for years and what combined resources there may have been disappear, it's not a happy prospect once the gay son is on his own again.

It comes up so often in DL and I wonder each time, what will happen to the son who made the sacrifices.

I am millionaire many times over but I still feel the shame of mom, in her requisite uniform of white gloves and pearls, telling me we were struggling financially, even though everything suggested otherwise. Weekends at the Cape were always a pleasant retreat from Exeter. I turns out we really were filthy rich all along. My financial advisor confirmed this, but I am in shock, stunned. Did I say I was shocked? It kills me to indulge in the little things in life like that vintage Mercedes SL I had been eyeing. My partner said I was ridiculous and that there was no room for a our new adopted son's car sear. I said that was what the Land Rover was for or we can leave him home with Bessie, our Nigerian black maid. This is an inclusive household! Housecleaning is not just an exclusive club for Mexicans!!!!! Anyhow, I had always wondered if being born rich would ensure I was rich as an adult and sure enough, it it! Even though Mother threatened to leave all the money to Immaculata, our beloved maid who was really more part of the family, she did not. Immaculata is where we all feel she'll be most comfortable, in an affordable nursing home somewhere on Long Island. I just can't believe it my luck! Should I splurge? Should I feel guilt. My hung, strapping, extremely masculine and very faithful husbear says I am too kind hearted, to stop torturing myself, but alas I cannot. DL, what should I do!?!?!?!

You should jump directly into the nearest grease fire, R156. That was an easy one to answer.

Hey everyone. there is no such thing as fragrance free detergent. detergent smells gross. the fragrance free ones use less overpowering smells but they do balance out the yuck smell to as close to neutral as they can get.

I keep the "fragrance free" one in the giant size and after using some, I dump in a small bottle of tide or Persil. You still get some of the good smell but diluted 20x.

"What happens to the gay men who left shitty jobs where they had shitty salaries, no benefits, and no savings to give their mothers sponge baths and cart them around to doctors' appointments for 6, 12, 18 years. "

It's always the gay son or the daughter who ends up making those sacrifices, not the straight son who "has a family of his own". If there's family pressure involved in someone giving up their job to be a caregiver, it's usually applied to the person least able to afford years away from the work force, and is very often sweetened with false promises of future financial support in exchange for the sacrifice. Families suck.

In all seriousness, I have worked with eldergays. What happens to childless eldergays is that they are often struggling with housing, finances, and health. Many have severe PTSD, health concerns, are estranged from their families due to no fault of their own other than being themselves and have survivors guilt from the 80's. Some gave every last dollar they had to medical bills to try to save their ailing partners and are flat broke. Many are on some kind of public assistance and on very long waiting lists for housing, especially extremely rare LGBT senior housing. This is a hugely neglected community that nobody acknowledges or talks about.

OP, nothing wrong with being frugal and passing up overpriced junk. It's OK to spend for things that have real meaning and last, but most people in debt have usually done it with stuff they easily could skip.

I have a lot of extra pennies in my old age, but I watch every cent I spend. I come from an NCO military family of 7. we weren't poor, but there was little extra for non living expense spending. Once we kids were in high school, Mom went back to work. All of us kids got part time jobs on the base too. To this day, 60 years later, I still insist on the best price for everything I buy, not the the lowest price always but the best value price.

R160 and R155 bring up relevant issues, and speak the truth.

DL would have you believed that most of us are aging corporate titans and powerhouse professionals with multiple homes and multimillions in investments. The reality is that even now most gays and lesbians are actually earning less than their straight counterparts. Some are (gasp!) working class. Inequality and institutionalized homophobia still exist. And gay men (particularly single men) have many fewer options as they age and their health declines.

The myth of gay male affluence is just that--a myth--but much too big an issue to address in this thread.

[R116]

You are full of shit. Retired social worker of 30 years (2018). Clients don’t ask their social workers for referrals to financial planners. Social workers don’t refer clients to financial planners. Ridiculous.

The problem with spending all of your money is that, in my case, I've set up a trust to provide college scholarships to disadvantaged youth. The other half is split between my cousin and her husband, who have serious health issues and very little money ,and my dear friend of 40 years, who once was my handy man.

I have a responsibility to leave all of them as much as I can, although I already subsidize all of them monthly. They are very careful with their money, and they deserve the help.

And some nutter thinks I should add my housekeeper to the list:

'If you're so compassionate about your "housekeeper"

1) pay her SS

2) buy her family health care

3) give her a raise and match the raise and put both in an IRA for her

4) consider a nice bequest, or one for her children. Control it through a trustee if you think she's so irresponsible. But she'll be very grateful."

This is just the worst financial advice I've ever read. My attorney would tell you that it would be crazy to set up and IRA pay or her health care (she gets it through another job) for my housekeeper. She is very well paid by me, has had several raises and gets large(several thousand each time) bonuses twice a year. She could start up an IRA, or put away same money for her child's future, but she's never stopped her spending beyond her monthly take, and she has no interest in learning the basics of finance to secure her future and that of her son.

If she shows that she can handle her money in a normal manner that all of us do, then I would consider leaving her something in my will, if she is still working for me, but family and decades-long friends come first. My housekeeper is not dealing with a fatal illness, as my cousin, her husband and my friend are. I doubt my friend will live through the end of this year.

Do I take financially take care of the mail man, the UPS driver, my neighbors and the dog catcher, too? Idiot.

[R57]

[R56] thinks he has great wit, and that what he wrote was "satire." He just doesn't understand that he is in no way amusing. Also, there is a lot of jealousy coming from him. His financial advice is ridiculous, and he thinks we believe he worked at a high position in banking. However, he completely blew his cover by not understanding that gifting reduces inheritance taxes, Any banker, even a low-level one, would know that.

To the person who asked if I've ever looked after anybody, the answer is yes. I took care of my father while he was dying of cancer. I was 21. I took care of my sister, who died of cancer. I was 45. I took care of my mother for 19 years, and she was bedridden with multiple illnesses. I was 49. Yes, my entire family is dead, so don't give me any crap about taking care of somebody. And when I say that I took care of them, I was their caregiver.

To the person who asked me that question, you are cruel. I have no other word for it, but you are an extremely cruel person.

R167 your family was so very lucky to have you, I'm sure they knew that. I'm sorry for your losses.

[R168]

Thank you. I'm just a crying mess right now.

It's a cruel summer for R169. Leaving him here, on his own. You're not the only one, though. You have DL for support.

OP and others are asking the wrong questions. The right question is, why are people so obsessed with money and whether or not they should be buying expensive things because they can afford to? Beyond the simple necessities (food, shelter, health care), a person doesn't need expensive things. Buy something if it gives you pleasure, but don't feel obligated to buy things because some disembodied voice on a rectangular box in your living room keeps insisting loudly that you must, for your own happiness, buy a new car, a new appliance, an expensive wine, an expensive meal at the "in restaurant du jour" , or a particular kind of clothing or jewelry. All of this emphasis on things is a manifestation of the very worst aspects of materialism. Materialism is the notion that material things are more important than intellectual, emotional, or spiritual attainments, and the people who glorify hedonism rarely lead happy or fulfilled lives. Note that I'm not saying that the desperately poor are happier than those who are well off - partly because the poor are always insecure about obtaining or holding onto the simplest necessities.

R166 Your post makes no sense. Not sure what you are trying to say but it sounds like a bunch of gibberish and doesn't at all relate to the posts you referenced. Are you drunk?

Damn -- this thread gives new meaning to the words "pointless bitchery."

R171, no, that isn't the right question. I'm not referencing buying expensive things just because of advertising or to keep up with your peers. Having "the latest" anything isn't something I'm even interested in and I don't care if other people do have something newer. In fact, I usually think less of them, if anything. I'm never even influenced by advertising and think that people who ARE influenced by it are weak-willed.

I'm referencing trying to get over the inner pang of anxiety that would come with ordering the $20 entree when you'd also be happy with the $15 entree. That is a mindset that is picked up very early in life when you are poor and I'm wondering if others find it difficult to overcome as well.

Bump for more insights.

[quote]I'm referencing trying to get over the inner pang of anxiety that would come with ordering the $20 entree when you'd also be happy with the $15 entree. That is a mindset that is picked up very early in life when you are poor and I'm wondering if others find it difficult to overcome as well.

Mindset from childhood, or stubbornness?

I can't think of many unshakeable mindsets from childhood that burden me. Maybe the instinct to mind my position in relation to others — not socio-economic but purely about physical space and courtesy to be mindful enough of your surroundings not to impede the normal comings and goings of others. Don't stop to tie your shoes at the bottom of the escalator. I think of this one because I now live in a place where everyone is always in everyone else's way, and yet in works fine; the rules are just a bit different. You adjust.

I can't understand the qualms about the difference in cost of a $15 versus $20 entree. Somehow that seems like picking a fight. Now if the left hand side of the menu had perfectly appealing entrees in the $10-19 range but the right side had entrees no more appealing in the $40+ range, I can see dismissing the more expensive option. That's a big difference and I might dismiss it out of hand thinking I've just see two appealing choices for less than half the price of these others; I'm $35 hungry, not 60 hungry. But $5, that's just miserable. And holding onto that mindset for many years when the necessity once at the root of it is long lifted seems to have some conscious aspect to it.

I joke that my other would have stopped highway traffic to pick up a shiny penny from the roadway. She died a millionaire and was never at all confident with decisions about large sums of money, but would seize control—right or wrong— and give voice to her very strong feelings about small, even the tiniest of sums.

Were you raised middle to upper class, R176? I'm wondering if that is why you can't relate to the qualm about spending 30% more on an entree. It isn't at all about stubbornness; it's about trying to reconcile that you are worth it.

"I'm referencing trying to get over the inner pang of anxiety that would come with ordering the $20 entree when you'd also be happy with the $15 entree"

I've learned to shut myself up over minor expenses by realizing that $5 or $10 means... X minutes pay, if I calculate my salary as hourly. Is something small worth five or ten or twenty minutes of work? Thinking of things that way shuts up the guilt-and-anxiety part of the brain, although it may start up again when I retire.

And I never have to worry about expensive entrees! The vegetarian option is never the most expensive!

OP- The more pertinent question is

Once a FAT WHORE, ALWAYS A FAT WHORE?

R178, I was able to do that rationalization a little bit when I was working, but now I am retired. Oddly enough, though, if anything, retirement has helped because I now have my pension and 401(k) money and watching the swings the balance takes daily helps me realize that $5 or $50 really isn't that big a deal to my long term financial well-being.

Get a load at Rockefeller at R180! 🙄

[quote]Were you raised middle to upper class, [R176]? I'm wondering if that is why you can't relate to the qualm about spending 30% more on an entree. It isn't at all about stubbornness; it's about trying to reconcile that you are worth it.

R177, middle class. True, my parents didn't object if I ordered one entree that was one-third more expensive than another, and I had as many new, "nice clothes" as I could stand, both things they regarded as necessities. However the same parents begrudged me dental care, college, the $5 for a school field trip, books... It didn't take me until I was 50, or 25, or even 12 to realize that that was fucked up. Some mindsets from childhood you embrace, others you reject.

My parents were prosperous, but they'd grown up during the Great Depression, and never lost their habits of frugality. I was sent to a good public school with a bunch of rich kids, because they'd bought a house in a nice neighborhood near a wealthy one, and my wardrove was two pairs of pants and two shirts per year. From SEARS.

Now the habits of frugality have served me well during the bad times, and if it weren't for the ingrained habit of saving against future disasters I'd have ended up homeless when the disaster actually hit, so I can't say the financial lessons I learned were all bad in spite of the mortifying embarrassment involved. But there's a point where sensible frugality becomes destructive cheapness, and it comes when you refuse to take your kid to the dentist even though you can afford to, as above, or even refusing to buy your kid a 3rd shirt because you didn't have one growing up. Come the fuck on!

There are a lot of black swans coming up in the next 10 to 15 years that could wipe everyone out. Like the fact that by 2030 we hit peak oil and they haven't found any new oil in decades. Fracking means companies are losing tons of money. This cannot last. Once the oil starts to deplete the civilization will collapse and everyone will be broke.

An overlooked category of cosily retired gay persons are those of single parent families who (sometimes) live with a widowed mother, but in any case, inherit THE LOT. A know a few who stopped work in their mid 30s or 40s "to look after mother" --who often didn't need looking after, but just wanted the company, or someone to pick up the groceries. There's heaps of homes in the suburbs lived in by gay men and women who got it all, and have lived great lives of leisure due to frugal parents.

"An overlooked category of cosily retired gay persons are those of single parent families who (sometimes) live with a widowed mother, but in any case, inherit THE LOT"

That's me. I don't live with my mom (yet) and I still work (for now), but my partner and I are definitely the ones looking after her. She has a big house on the north shore of Long Island and she's CHEAP as fuck. We're there every weekend, doing things around the house, overseeing landscaping, tending to her garden...cooking a nice dinner for her on Saturdays, etc. We've discussed her selling the house (it would fetch over 800K) and downsizing but she wants to age in place...so we're going to help her do that knowing we get everything.

She also has passive income from investments, as well as a family trust fund that gives her a few thousand a month. You would never know it. Her car is 20 years old and she agonizes over any little new purchase. It's fucking annoying. HER family was cheap as fuck too. It's crazy - they generated all this money and then refused to do anything with it (my grandmother lived in a modest house in rural Michigan and never spent).

In the end, I'm thankful for the family frugality - because I certainly intend to spend that shit down.

154 lottery winners are the exception and not the rule. How many lottery winners do you know? How many of them worked hard their whole lives to escape poverty? Stop trying to take things to the extreme. You look like a fool.

They should make a law that says if you are 75 or 78 you can be allowed to be euthanized. Many people would do it for various reasons. I never wanted to live past 75 because I worked in eldercare and so many have a really rough time. I think It is cruel to force people to live and suffer.

Good answer R159! Everyone assumes the single gay has no life and has TIME and won't be inconvenienced if the aging relative is left on their doorstep. Fuck that! Not just financially, but culturally and socially, the gay one needs his time and this seriously cramps his style. He is the LEAST available in his prime! He's not taking Mom to parties on Fire Island or, the weird films or plays, or to the Pride Celebrations etc. Mom's MUCH better suited for sitting around with the son or daughter with the family playing parchessi or watching Nickelodeon with the kids. Not to mention (as earlier implied) the gay has no spouse or family to rely on financially in HIS old age. He needs to be building his own safety net (financially and socially) in his prime and not "giving mom sponge baths."

bump

My parents were the same, having lived through the Depression. If you bought my mother a nice tablecloth, you never saw it on the table, because she was "saving" it. Nothing to be ashamed of.

I have at least been able to get over the "saving it" issue, R191...thankfully. When I was a kid, I would get several what I thought of as very nice Russell Stover chocolate eggs. They were so fancy, in my mind, that I couldn't eat them so I'd "save" them in my room. Of course, what inevitably happened is that they would eventually go bad and disintegrate in the wrapping, never being eaten at all. I wasn't able to overcome that until being out of high school. It was a good lessen in going ahead and using things no matter how nice they were.

When you behave like R191's mother, or R192 with his spoiled chocolate eggs, you are surrendering your power and choice to inanimate, material possessions. You are saying that these things have an innate power and worth that is greater than you and your needs and wants.

That's a very unhealthy relationship with the world. Objects were meant to serve us, not the other way around.

[quote] bypassing getting $4 treats like coffee/tea/ice cream,

This is a sound financial move, not “acting poor.” That shit adds up over time, more than you realize.

I think OP is a consummate humble bragger. Kudos for the thread.

10/10

[quote] When you behave like [R191]'s mother, or [R192] with his spoiled chocolate eggs, you are surrendering your power and choice to inanimate, material possessions. You are saying that these things have an innate power and worth that is greater than you and your needs and wants.

Agree, but it sounds like R192 no longer stows away his chocolate eggs until they're spoiled.

Societally, yes, once poor, always poor. It's really about class more than anything. It's all about the connections, the relationships that are established since birth, the advantages. People don't like to admit that there is a caste system in the US, but there very much is one.

I grew up lower middle class. When I was younger, I'm sure we were on the edges of poverty as my mother wanted to stay home and raise me and my brother on my father's meager salary. But I never really knew that. Luckily my mother would occasionally splurge and buy me a toy or some item of clothing.

By the time I was in fourth grade, my mother finally got a job and it seemed like we had a lot of money compared to when she wasn't working. But we didn't really. We just went from lower middle class to solidly middle class where we stayed the rest of my upbringing. I went to a private school and eventually learned in my teens what real money is. My friends had beautiful houses, their parents drove expensive cars, nice furniture, and everyone was expected to go to a highly respected college or university.

I went to college, then law school. Now I'm a successful lawyer. I have money but I don't go crazy with it. I'm saving like crazy for retirement. I have a beautiful home, but I drive an older car. I learned from the people who I grew up around who had money what to spend on and what to avoid. Cars are one of those things. They depreciate quickly. If I buy a car, I'm going to keep it for 10 years or more.

I do spurge on nice things. I know what clothes last and are classic and timeless. I have cashmere sweaters that are two decades old that still get compliments. One of my big splurges is hiring people to do work around the house--cleaning crew once a week, lawn maintenance, decorators. I don't have the time or the inclination to do all that. It give me free time, which is very valuable to me with a demanding career.

I'm glad I didn't turn out miserly like my father. He was not smart with money. Rather, he was just plain old cheap. I've never seen cheap lead to good things. You have to know when to spend money on the right items as above posters have mentioned. For me, spending a lot on a house made more sense than spending a lot on a car. The house is a wise investment, whereas the car quickly depreciates.

My brother is a bit cheap and miserly when it comes to some things. I'll spend money on good food, but he always gets the cheap store brand and it just doesn't taste as good. His kids when they were younger loved when I would come visit because the house was suddenly filled with name brand food and drink. To me, it's worth paying more for the quality of some things.

I agree with your assessment as well, R193. The chocolate eggs were better than me. As R196 stated, I have thankfully grown out of that mindset. But, as I also wrote in an earlier post, I can still struggle with thinking I am worth the extra $7.00 entree when the $15.00 entree is perfectly fine. I guess it is still a process.

I grew up pretty well off OP, but I have never been a spendthrift.

Buying things doesn't really give me much pleasure--I'd rather go on a great vacation where I am really exploring a place and living like a local than buy some designer item or expensive car.

I buy a lot of food at Trader Joe's and so that's all technically "store brand"

Sometimes I will laugh at the minor cheapnesses I find myself doing--driving five extra minutes to fill up at a place where the gas is 5 cents cheaper--was it work that 10 minutes to same what probably came out to 90 cents?

But to your point, OP, some of the biggest spendthrifts I know are people who grew up worried about money and some the biggest tightwads are people who grew up with lots of it.

I think the difference is, for someone who grew up with a lot of money and still is comfortable, cheapness is a choice rather than a necessity. That's something too many people don't get.

^^^was it worth that 10 minutes to save what probably came out to 90 cents?

"When I was a kid, I would get several what I thought of as very nice Russell Stover chocolate eggs. They were so fancy, in my mind, that I couldn't eat them so I'd "save" them in my room."

A lot of people who are poor grow up with the opposite mindset - if you have anything worthwhile, eat it/use it up/spend it before someone takes it away or the moment of good fortune vanishes forever! Some people learn that from living in the kind of shitty area where things are liable to get stolen, some people (like me) aren't as poor but grow up in families with poor boundaries and where family members will take things from each other. Because yes, if I'd been given chocolate eggs, I'd have eaten them before my parents' backs were turned and my older siblings grabbed them, and my parents told me to stop whining.

Neither strategy works in the long term. If you spend your life being afraid to use anything that's too good, you end up losing it almost as surely as the person who never saves anything for the future (which plays into the "lack of future orientation" that's frequently cited in "culture of poverty" essays). No, a sensible person finds a middle ground, using resources as appropriate to make both the present and the future a better place to live.

I grew up poor and I'm now middle class per my salary (120K). But I still live in a cheaper 1 bedroom apartment with Ikea and Craigslist furniture. I'm not cheap when it comes to travel and socializing, but have just never wanted flashy things so I don't blow money on fashion, cars, jewelry, etc. I just make do with simpler pleasures and wants.

My mom is still poor and it's really warped her psyche. It makes me sad and frustrated as I have enough money to help her but not enough to pluck her out of her economic situation and give her the middle class life she envies. That's her poverty mindset--just lower middle class is her aspiration. Like others have mentioned, she also has some weird rationalization of things. Like buying cheap touristy crap because they're such a good bargain. She is sure she can give them as gifts to friends and their kids. Sure enough, she has cheap tchotkes from 20-30 years ago in her closet that she's never given away. But she can't bear to donate or throw them away either. Or she'll complain about her feet and knees hurting and I question her about her shoes. She'll wear them out and they don't provide enough support. I've implored her to wear quality shoes, but she can't bear the thought of paying for expensive shoes. And her notion of expensive shoes is more than $40-50. Sometimes I'll find out that shoes I bought her 1-2 years ago have been in her closet the entire time. When I question her why she's not wearing them, she says she wants to save them for when she goes overseas to visit her family--so they will see she has nice new shoes. I bought her a pair of shoes from Nordstrom recently and I made her wear them the very next day. I'm sure they have since gone back in the box and in the closet. It saddens me that her brain has been wired to think and live like this. It also serves a reminder to check myself too.

She once told me all she wants before she dies is to live in her own home--she's a lifelong renter. And low-income renter at that. She lives in southern California so there's no way I can afford to fulfill that wish. I mean I could...if I worked the corporate job until I'm 70 but I'm sick of working and just barely hanging on until I have enough to rip the cord. But yeah, I just feel like shit that I can't help my mom in the way she wants.

R203, has your mother ever asked you to buy her a house? She won't even wear shoes that you've bought her (unless made to do so). Sounds odd that she would want you to buy her a house.

R204, yes, she has, buy a house and live with her. We are immigrants and house ownership is everything in our culture. She's the only one of her family who doesn't own her own home and she wears it like a scarlet letter. She's convinced her mother slights her because of her poverty and non-home ownership. I admit my grandmother does place emphasis on economic achievement but my mom really overdoes the perceived slights. I tell her grandma is 95 years old, just let her ramble on. What's the point at this stage?

R71I hope you choke on a Samuel Adams beer you old money, Yankee, WASP, perverted ass motherfucker. People work hard so you have it easy. I've come from a middle-class family and I certainly did not have privileges like yours. One day, people will stop working COMPLETELY at the slave wage you and your right-wing log cabin ass motherfuckers keep supporting. Just because you need seven figures.

R205, sounds like you are being level-headed about what you can and can't do for your mother. I'm not trying to sound cruel, but it seems like even if you bought her a house, she might still be unhappy. I say this because people who care so much about what others think about them ("Scarlett Letter" mentality) will probably never be happy.

R207, yes, I have thought this too. Money likely wouldn't change a lifetime of perceived slights but I admit I daydream about winning the lottery, not even a big one, just enough to buy her a nice little house. Would it change her psyche? No, probably not, she needs lifetime therapy for that but damn, it would make her happy for a moment or two. And selfishly, I would stop feeling guilty.

"I grew up poor and I'm now middle class per my salary (120K). But I still live in a cheaper 1 bedroom apartment with Ikea and Craigslist furniture. I'm not cheap when it comes to travel and socializing, but have just never wanted flashy things so I don't blow money on fashion, cars, jewelry, etc."

Hey! You're me!

R209, yeah, we're minority but not entirely rare. I think there's a good chunk of us who bypassed the flash because we know what it's like to be poor and save diligently so we don't ever go back to that state. And one way to do that is just not blowing money on non-essentials. I'm going to drop 4K on vet bills this summer and I'll do it because the furballs mean a lot to me. But 4K on a watch? That holds no sway over me at all.

R200 is me but I do have an nice car and nice clothes. I'm basic and minimalist but I love great trips and I won't fly economy.

If you are willing to pay to fly better than economy, you don't qualify for this discussion. I would never consider thinking flying other than economy. I don't even feel good enough about it to pay for one of the premium seats with better placement.

Just my two cents: it's fine if you don't care about home furnishings, but if you have a home you love and plan on staying put for a while, IKEA furniture is not a very good investment. It doesn't last and wears poorly. (And frankly, after a certain age and/or income level, it's a bit embarrassing). It's fine for the 20-somethings who move every 2-3 years.

I do acquire furniture at estate/garage sales and thrift shops, though. I've purchased a few really valuable items that I could/would never afford firsthand.

[qupte] but I do have an nice car and nice clothes. I'm basic and minimalist but I love great trips and I won't fly economy.

Clothes

Car

Airline travel

Hotels

Just what are you "basic and minimalist" about?

Food?

Liquor?

You buy towels at Bed Bath and Beyond?

Damn, R214. Once poor, always poor? Once miserable, always miserable?

No R215, it's more about what I said at R200-- people who grow up with a lot don't realize that the decisions they make are choices rather than necessities.

R200 - What I was saying, is that like you, I grew up well off, but I live relatively modestly. I live pretty basic with a few small luxuries, but I try to be careful with money.

R71 I know people in the social stratum you're claiming as your own. They would regard your post from start to finish as clownishly vulgar.

I recently watched a commercial for a money lending app with a relative who is in grad school, family has a few million dollars, multiple properties.... He couldn't understand why people would take high interest loans that create crippling debt. He understood "taking money from that app seems like a bad idea" but the idea that someone might have no other options to say, pay for their kid's healthcare or ER bill, make a payment on a car before its repossessed, gas to get to work, pay rent before eviction....none of these things occurred to him

Does no one here recognize even the broadest of satire any longer?

No.

I grew up poor, raised by a single mother. However, she did value education and knew it was important for my chances of success in work. And she was emotionally pretty stable and gave me good values. I got through college and professional grad school and did pretty well.

A "well-paying" career?

Oh dear.

R220 I don't think it's clear that it's satire, broad or narrow.

I grew up poor, but only really understand it in in hindsight. We always had food on the table and a roof over our heads, but things like a trip to the movies were a treat. And my parents never taught/forced me to save. I graduated high school with $300 in the bank. And yes, I thought that was a lot of money. My early 20s were very lean (working multiple jobs, checking my mail every day for a paycheck) but now in my 30s I'm making good money. But I always have a voice in the bank of my head to be careful. I buy what I want and put money away for the future (I could live for 2 years on my savings if I was lean) but I don't know if I'll ever truly be relaxed about cash.

quote]but I don't know if I'll ever truly be relaxed about cash

I felt the same way for a long time, R224. There was something scarring to me about being poor and knowing that there was no one I could go to if I needed money, even for an emergency. It's only recently that I've started to worry less about it, confident that I'm in good shape and can spend and give more freely. It feels good!

Appropriately, I went looking at new glasses today and saw a pair I really liked...for $900 after lens, etc. I know I can afford them, my friends liked the pics, but I'm still like...holy fuck.

Now this had become a thread about former poors humble bragging about being able to afford expensive items but needing their inner permission to allows them to actually buy it. That's the difference between once poor and the not poors. We just get what we need without over thinking it and if it costs a little extra, so be it.

^ smell Missy Marie Antoinette

R226, there is NO way I'd spend $900 on glasses even now. It doesn't matter that I can afford them; I couldn't bring myself to spend hundreds of dollars more on something that I can get for much less that will still look nice. Try Zenni optical online.

I have spent over $900 on one pair of glasses. It was over a decade ago. I was foolish but there also weren't tons of options online like Zenni, Warby Parker, etc.

R226 I agree that you should comparison shop. You could probably match the frames or find something similar for a fraction of that price.

I guess that answers my question, r223.

I don't know what good-quality progressive lenses cost in the US, but in Europe where I live, you won't find a pair -- sans frames -- for under $800.

So, although I'm pretty cheap, my glasses cost nearly a thousand bucks.

Online vendors (based in the US) can manufacture progressive lenses for less than half that, R232--provided you have a prescription for the lenses and can provide all the details.

Of course, you'll need to ensure the progressives and frames fit properly. That's essential.

[quote] Appropriately, I went looking at new glasses today and saw a pair I really liked...for $900 after lens, etc. I know I can afford them, my friends liked the pics, but I'm still like...holy fuck.

Rx glasses wearer here. I don't wear contacts and I need glasses to drive.

Glasses are a racket and yes, this is just how much they cost. Things that add to the cost:

1. Transition lenses: lenses tint darker in sunlight (so you don't need rx sunglasses, i.e., an extra pair of glasses).

2. Bifocals. (Lower part of lens is for reading; upper part of lens is for distance.)

3. No-line bifocals. Yes, that's a separate charge.

4. Anti-scratch lenses. I bought this b/c my glasses do tend to get scratched.

R234, it is true that each of those items adds to the cost, but that doesn't mean they have to cost hundreds of dollars. I have five pairs of progressive bifocal, no-glare glasses from Zenni that I got for around $250 for all of them COMBINED, not per pair of glasses.

I was spending $350 every four months for contact lenses and finally got LASIK when they went up again because I work with chemicals and my lenses were drying out too early. I grew up poor and agree some habits die hard. I still don’t like to throw edible food away and use up every last bit of soap, shampoo or toothpaste before throwing the containers out.

A six figure salary is NOT middle class, even if it's barely there. The median salary in the USA in 2019 was $40k. The mean average was 50k. I still live on the $36k that I started on after university... I recently started my first six-figure job. (I can actually live on under 20k, but only because extra earnings let me pay off my modest house.)

... If you have extreme saving tendencies, it helps to set aside an amount that you're allowed to spend, no questions asked. I put it in two pots, one for every day spending (like restaurants) and one for special purchases (planned large fun spends like vacations or toys). Anything I don't spend carries forward, I'm not allowed to just allocate it to 'more savings'... It helps because then when something comes up that you really want to do, the money is already there earmarked for fun. At the same time, you don't have to blow the money, just means that more will be there for later.

I experienced this issue again yesterday. I wanted to order some smart plugs that are four for $40. When I got to the checkout, I saw that the shipping is $8.00 and it stopped me from ordering them because it was another 20%. I shouldn't have even given it a second thought because I checked my investments (I'm retired) just a couple of weeks ago and see that I have several hundred thousand dollars more than the day I retired a year ago. Only poor people have to worry about an extra $8.00 in shipping, but I just can't shake the feeling. Ugh.

[quote]I have several hundred thousand dollars more than the day I retired a year ago

Good lord. What is your total net worth, R238? Or at least your investment value?

I grew up on the lower end of the middle class scale and definitely was very aware of money issues from a young age. As a result, I chased money and acquired it. For many years I spent lavishly and made poor choices. I literally wasted money and was prone to picking up large tabs, shopping daily, and spending too much on gifts. I was out of control.

I finally had a mini crisis around 35 and took stock of my spending and my life. I changed my ways and I gained a new relationship with money. I'm not cheap but I research purchases and I don't flaunt money or feel the need to pick up large tabs so others can party. I'm much more comfortable now and I feel more successful and proud of what I've accomplished.

3.5, R239. Not counting the house, car, etc.

R224/226 here. I bought the glasses. I love them, even if I hyperventilated a bit buying them.

I read an article about Ryan Lochte's money problems and he mentioned not looking at his bank account for 2 years. I can't go a few days without checking, making sure I don't have any bills due.

Congratulations, R242. Glad you took the plunge and love the glasses. Ryan Lochte also has an IQ that precludes him being able to count to 100, so you have to take that into consideration as well. What's more disgusting is that he had enough money to accomplish that.

R243 Oh I know he's a complete moron, but I also know that plenty of other people do the same thing. They pay no attention to their income/expenses and then have to check to see if they have enough for rent or the mortgage. Not knowing how much money I have is just unfathomable to me. Having grown up lean (not sure if properly poor as I was always fed and clothed and all the necessities) and lived paycheck to paycheck (checking the mail frantically) for several years after college, my finances are never far from my thoughts.

I was able to go ahead and overcome my apprehension today and went ahead and ordered them and paid the $8.00 shipping.

I’m always nervous because I know the money could go away quickly.

I spent most of my childhood solidly middle class. Then the rug was pulled out from under me. I was always fed, clothed and had a roof over my head, but had to spend my own money for much of it.

I just paid off college. I’m ok if the car dies, I can float for a bit without a job and have stable housing.

I don’t spend a lot on clothes and the car was a cheap cash buy ( I like it though).

So I agree with OP. The only thing I spent any money on this year was a trip to visit friends. Totally worth it.

YES!!

My mother put on airs when we were growing up and made us and others think our family was wealthy- my dad made obscene money when I was very young. A series of accidents hobbled him and we were poor as well, so I’ve seen both sides of the coin. She refused to fill out any of my applications for college and I struck out on my own and struggled 20 years.

I ruined my credit over about $2000 and it was the best thing to happen when I went to clean it up in my 40’s because I couldn’t get any credit cards to dig it any deeper! LOL.

I’m wary attaching my wealth directly to Wall Street because I think theres a catastrophic financial breakdown brewing..

I gleaned a piece of Sage wisdom from one Mrs. Harriet Oleson "It's one thing to be poor but you don't have to act like it."

Since it is the recently made-up Giving Tuesday, do any of you who grew up poor and are now financially stable find it difficult or anxiety inducing to donate money because there is always the nagging thought in the back of your mind that you might end up needing it yourself some day and you'd never want to have to ask for help for yourself?

R250 Yes.

I guess I can just leave money to charities in my will because I am pretty sure I'll be comfortable by then with not worrying about running out!

R71 what a pompas ass you are