New Threat to Kratom

I'm more inclined to believe the Mayo Clinic, rather than new age wackos

Well, I’ve been using it for years, instead of prescription oxy, and it has been cheap, easy to get and effective. It should not be banned!

[quote]Well, I’ve been using it for years, instead of prescription oxy, and it has been cheap, easy to get and effective.

Yes, and the covid vaccine is the master plan of Bill Gates to insert tracking chips into all of us after causing infertility and permanently changing our DNA.

Why would anyone at this late date take anything that's an opioid or acts like an opioid? A friend suggested I try it, recreationally, and as soon as I found out it's like some homeopathic Oxy, I thought: pass. Thanks, R1, for that link. I definitely trust the Mayo Clinic's take on it, and stick with my edibles for recreational fun.

You think kratom is a conspiracy theory, R3? I don’t understand that.

Kratom is not a good recreational drug, but it does have medicinal pain relieving and calming properties and has been helpful to many people. There have been some good threads about it on DL in the past.

The kratom obsessives remind me of the colloidal silver obsessives we had on the Datalounge about 15 years ago.

If you don’t want to use kratom, don’t. Nobody is trying to convince you. But leave those of use who find it beneficial alone. Why do you care?

[quote]The kratom obsessives remind me of the colloidal silver obsessives we had on the Datalounge about 15 years ago.

Do you drink coffee/tea for its uplifting aspects, r7? Kratom is much like that - in fact, it is related to the coffee plant. r6 is correct. It is helpful for pain relief, and can calm nerves, improve sleep. It's good for some PTSD sufferers.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't take something other than an opioid-adjacent for medicinal pain relieving and calming properties. And I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. I'm not saying it should be made illegal, either.

Opioid adjacent medicines are expensive and hard to get. Kratom is also safer because there are virtually no ODs as taking too much makes you vomit.

Here's a recent thread, which suggests some people have had a rough time on it.

A caveat to the link's thread title above above: kratom is NOT like Adderall, but an opiate.

[quote]Nobody is trying to convince you.

You have several replies on this thread that are obviously you trying to convince people to use it, plus the guy who posted right after you was trying to convince me personally to take it.

I worked for several yers at a treatment center for teens/young adults. The withdrawal was often worse than from opiates as so often we would have no idea what the substance labeled 'Kratom' actually contained.

Time to start stockpiling OP. The Dems want you on weed- Repubs are the Kratom party and they are out of power at the moment

[quote]You have several replies on this thread that are obviously you trying to convince people to use it, plus the guy who posted right after you was trying to convince me personally to take it.

No one in this thread is trying to convince any one to take kratom, r14. I'm r9, and I can't see how you took my post as trying to get you, personally, to take it. Why would I care if *you* took it?

[quote]I'm not sure why you wouldn't take something other than an opioid-adjacent for medicinal pain relieving and calming properties.

Because it is inexpensive and it works for many people, r10. Why wouldn't you?

[quote]I worked for several yers at a treatment center for teens/young adults. The withdrawal was often worse than from opiates as so often we would have no idea what the substance labeled 'Kratom' actually contained.

Now there's your problem. You never know what else the kids were taking. I've taken kratom on and off for decades. I have never suffered any form of withdrawal.

OP, your wall of text contains 24 mentions of “Kratom”.

If this is what it does to Data Loungers, I fully support Big Pharma shutting this shit down for everybody.

As soon as DL starts warning us about something getting shut down is when I feel it's time to try it.

[quote]You think kratom is a conspiracy theory, [R3]? I don’t understand that.

Probably explains why you buy into this kratom stuff.

[quote]Well, I’ve been using it for years, instead of prescription oxy, and it has been cheap, easy to get and effective.

My point is that, just like the baseless claims about the covid vaccine, you've bought into claims about kratom not supported by any real science.

I was just relating my own experience. I didn’t make any scientific claims. This is DL, not a medical journal.

[quote]I didn’t make any scientific claims.

Nor do you apparently know how to read.

[quote]you've bought into claims about kratom not supported by any real science.

Where do I suggest you've made any scientific claims?

R17, I wouldn't because it's essentially an opioid. And it's not enough reason that it's cheap. There are plenty of non-opioid remedies for pain.

I tried it tonight for the first time. Maybe I took too much, but I felt intensely high off of it...I can’t believe that this isn’t regulated by the government. I mean, this legal drug messed me up more than most illegal drugs I’ve ever taken.

Don’t get me wrong, I loved taking it and will again. But it’s potent.

Just curious, r24. How much did you take? How did you take it? What variety? How did the intense "high" manifest?

Does kratom make people write huge paragraphs with endless run-on sentences and no paragraph breaks?

If R24 is dead, I want his stuff.

MD who treats opiate addiction with Suboxone here. I have 3 patients, all addicted to kratom, who wanted to get off but couldn't due to bad withdrawal symptoms/psychological dependence. Now all 3 are on Suboxone, and will need to take that for a while, and then we will have to taper that down. I wouldn't recommend opiates to anyone (unless cancer/post op) and I certainly wouldn't recommend kratom after seeing what these 3 went through.

[quote][R17], I wouldn't because it's essentially an opioid. And it's not enough reason that it's cheap. There are plenty of non-opioid remedies for pain.

It isn't "essentially an opioid", r10/r23. It is closely related to the coffee plant. People use kratom to get off of opioids. Many non-opioid pain remedies won't touch some chronic pain.

To r20: how do you know that your 3 patients were addicted to kratom alone, and that kratom alone was responsible for their withdrawals? Do you have any experience/knowledge of kratom beyond those 3 patients?

I'm calling bullshit on r24. No one who has done their fair share of drugs would say that kratom "messed me up more than most illegal drugs I’ve ever taken". That's nonsense. Kratom doesn't get you high. I've gotten more stoned from edibles than kratom.

R29 It is clear you are an idiot. Check out "Google Scholar" to look up peer reviewed papers on kratom addiction, withdrawal and use of buprenorphine to treat kratom addiction. I shouldn't have to do that work for you.

Ah, but you are probably not capable of understanding the scientific literature. So go ahead and pretend kratom is a safe drug with no addictive potential and no potential for bad, bad withdrawals.

-R20

Well, that was unwarranted, r20/r30. I asked a couple of very reasonable questions (three, if you count one as a compound question). Instead of answering any of them, you went on an all-out personal attack.

I have read and understood many peer-reviewed papers, on several subjects, not just kratom. I'm not a genius, but I'm also not an idiot.

[quote] So go ahead and pretend kratom is a safe drug with no addictive potential and no potential for bad, bad withdrawals.

Can you point to where I made those claims, please? Almost any drug has the potential of at least psychological dependence.

Maybe you should switch to decaf if a few clarifying questions get you so riled up.

- r29

R4- People with chronic pain who are cruelly being denied adequate pain relief. I have MS, degenerative disc disease, arthritis, and osteoporosis. I have never abused or sold my pain medication. My former neurologist retired one year ago. He was my doctor for 15 years. He prescribed 45mg of oxycodone a day . He prescribed 1mg Xanax, PRN for anxiety and panic attacks. He never drug tested me once b/c he trusted me. His trust was well placed. Now I have to go through hell to get 10mg's a day. Drug tested every month so no weed for my anxiety and I can forget ever getting Xanax again. I can white knuckle my way through life without pain meds but my quality of life has drastically declined. Everything hurts so I do not want to move around much or walk, shop, do anything b/c I dread my level increasing during the day. When you are in constant pain you will eventually take almost anything to relieve it. It is the fact that the pain is neverending that makes it so damn unbearable. When you hurt yourself you may have pain, but you are aware of the fact that it will subside eventually. With chronic pain it never will. Imagine having a broken bone. Now imagine that the pain you feel now will never end, never decrease. This is why so many chronic pain patients eventually commit suicide. Yes I will take kratom. If I knew where to score heroin I probably eventually take that as well.

R32. Try finding a private practice psychiatrist. I am one, and I prescribe buprenorphine to opiate addicts. many who have chronic pain that led to addiction. I don't care if they use MJ at night after work/in moderation. There are some who I prescribe benzos to (I keep dosing under 2 mg/day). I don't drug test - I know my patients and encourage honesty.

Buprenorphine can help reduce pain, and is becoming more popular as a pain med. It has a low abuse potential and there are no cases of OD deaths on buprenorphine alone, due to the fact that it is a partial blocker of the opiate receptor. You should look into getting on this.

Why yes, r32! After all you have recounted, all r33 offers is "Try this! I'm a psychiatrist!"

Because that's exactly who you need to look to for pain relief. A self-admitted psychiatrist, who is clearly without a clue regarding chronic pain.. Blessing on you. r32.

[quote] there are no cases of OD deaths on buprenorphine alone

Not one from kratom, either.

Ok R34 Go to hell you obsessive dolt. Take your fucking kratom with you. And yes, it will probably be illegal in a year or two, and you will have to find another addictive drug to placate your "pain" which quite frankly sounds very psychosomatic.

Or as we say "supratentorial".

[quote]Ok [R34] Go to hell you obsessive dolt. Take your fucking kratom with you. And yes, it will probably be illegal in a year or two, and you will have to find another addictive drug to placate your "pain" which quite frankly sounds very psychosomatic.

I have never spoken a word about my "pain". I seldom use kratom, as it isn't the best pain reliever, so I'll be fine, thanks, not that you care. I grow and use turmeric. Ginger.

You have no concept of how to manage chronic pain.

[quote]Or as we say "supratentorial".

You're a sad and unsympathetic person.

[quote]I don't care if they use MJ at night after work/in moderation.

How generous of you, r35!

R29, kratom works much like an opioid, not caffeine. R28 is right.

All the talk of difficult withdrawal scared me, especially if kratom is going to be unavailable soon. I tried cutting my consumption in half and after 24 hours I feel fine. Last night I took a Benadryl to help with sleep, but that’s all. I think I’ll just keep reducing the amount I take gradually and it seems like it will be okay. I know people have different experiences but this seems to be working for me. I have used this technique successfully with other drugs in the past.

[quote]R29], kratom works much like an opioid, not caffeine. [R28] is right.

Respectfully, r38, r28 (who is also r30, r33, and r35) has some pretty obvious anger issues, lashing out at strangers in a disrespectful way. She is dismissive, insulting and condescending. She has diagnosed a stranger's "pain" [her scare quotes, not mine] as "very psychosomatic". The fact that she uses scare quotes for "pain" indicates she doesn't believe it is real. At r28, she says:

[quote] I wouldn't recommend opiates to anyone (unless cancer/post op)

...but at r33, she says:

[quote][R32]. Try finding a private practice psychiatrist. I am one, and I prescribe buprenorphine to opiate addicts. many who have chronic pain that led to addiction.

Buprenorphine IS an opiate. Yes, it is one with a lower potential for abuse, mostly because it is often combined with Suboxone, but it is still an opiate. So she prescribes something that she doesn't "recommend ... to anyone (unless cancer/post op)". I would never hire anyone who is so disingenuous, so full of anger, and so ready to indulge in ad hominin attacks.

OP/ r39, you are smart to wean yourself off kratom if you are concerned, and you are doing it in a reasonable way. Until kratom has been FDA approved, it is wise to approach it with caution (true of any drug or supplement, actually). I have never used it more than twice a week.

R40, I'm R38, not those other people. You've lumped us all in together as one person posting, but I'm none of those other people. And I'm not sure those people are all the same person, either.

I took opioids for chronic pain-- a huge amount daily for several years. I suspected the pain was caused by hyperanalgeisa, but I was afraid that if I weaned myself off and I still had pain I'd never get a script again, so I took the meds for years longer than I should have. Eventually I decided I had enough and I tapered my dose down to nothing. I read on the internet how to do it, and I took fucktons of benadryl to ease the side effects. It took about two months and my pain has never come back. I am so glad I don't have to deal with pain medicine doctors anymore. When you're taking those meds, everyone treats you like an addict.

[quote][R40], I'm [R38], not those other people. You've lumped us all in together as one person posting, but I'm none of those other people. And I'm not sure those people are all the same person, either.

I understand which posts you have made, r38/r41. I'm not sure how I could be clearer. I quoted you, then addressed you directly. I referred to [R28], [R30], [R33], and [R35]), who are most definitely the same person.

r41:

You're also r10, r12, r13, r23, and r27, as well as r38.

Ignoredar is a beautiful thing.

Yes, R44, so what? You put someone on "Ignoredar" because they question Kratom use? You're certainly not ignoring me. At any rate, your hopped-up defense of this opiate and your attack on others merely for questioning it suggests you have a problem with this substance. I hope you get help.

[quote] You put someone on "Ignoredar" because they question Kratom use? You're certainly not ignoring me.

Ignoredar is merely a tool I use to get a sense of the person I'm responding to, r45, and making sure I am answering to the correct person as fully as possible. I mentioned ignoredar to explain how I knew which posts you'd made, and that I wasn't mixing you up with someone else, to refute your post at r41. The only person I have "attacked" was R28, R30, R33, and R35, who was the one attacking *me* for asking very simple, direct, reasonable questions.

[quote]At any rate, your hopped-up defense of this opiate and your attack on others merely for questioning it suggests you have a problem with this substance. I hope you get help.

I haven't used kratom for months, though I have used it on and off for well over a decade, and I'm not truly "defending" it. I have never had a "problem" with it, but thanks for your concern, I guess? No matter how often you call it an opiate, it isn't. That's just plainly not true. Period.

I also haven't indulged in name-calling. I haven't called anyone a "dolt" or an "idiot", nor told anyone to "go to hell" as the psychiatrist (R28, R30, R33, and R35) has.

I am not the one with a problem here, and I don't understand why *I* am under attack...but that, too, is also not my problem.

Have a good one.

Just to be clear, r45, and so *you* know who you are talking to: I am r9, r17, r29, r31, r36, and r40. I've have been fairly even-keeled and respectful, though I did respond in kind when r35 went on her unhinged rant after I brushed off her first attack.

Reread the thread. There are only a few people in this thread, and only one jerk. It isn't me and it isn't you. It's Miss Psychiatrist with the anger issues and untruths.

Knew a 20 yo in fancy treatment. Nice kid. She was there because she stroked out on Kratom.

What happens is just like other opioids, over time, people take more to get to stasis. She basically blew away all her promise. Her brain was toast.

A little strychnine may not hurt and get you high. As you go up on it for effect, it will kill you.

Phenibut has similar caveats. It's fine in moderation. Used in excess, it's hellish.

"Kratom contains a chemical called mitragynine. Mitragynine works like opioid drugs such as codeine and morphine to relieve pain."

WTF is kratom?

R51, WTF don't you just read the link at R50?

[quote]As soon as DL starts warning us about something getting shut down is when I feel it's time to try it.

Me too! Where can I get some?

Almost any shady or sketchy gas station or mini mart off the highway, especially in red states. . Just look for the store you would never go in > they will have kratom

[quote] I'm [R9], and I can't see how you took my post as trying to get you, personally, to take it. Why would I care if *you* took it?

I don't know r17 but you specifically addressed me, asking about whether I drank coffee and tea "for its uplifting aspects," then went on to make the false claim that kratom is basically just caffeine and people should use it.

The weird thing is that the very next thing you said in R17 was to someone else was "Why wouldn't you take it?" which is again you suggesting someone personally take kratom.

You're practically shilling on this thread and it's not the first time you've done this on Datalounge, you have an obvious agenda, and you're lying about what it does. When people point this out you go into ad hominem attacks, implying people are lying about what you said or are posting too much.

You're not trustworthy and I hate knowing there are some people out there too dumb or too desperate to discern the difference between helpful advice and shilling.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him think

R46, you come off like an insane, manic crackhead. Just reading OP's insane post would make me never even look at Kratom for anything.

R20, never used the stuff, likely never will. But we use a lot of stuff without scientific studies. That's just bogus.

R57 No they don't, they made concise points to combat the "Reefer Madness" levels of bullshit and hysteria about Kratom that have been posted in this thread.

A psychiatrist suggesting someone use bupenephrine, one of the strongest opiods there is instead of Kratom is ludicrous. Bupe/Suboxone is one of the longest withdrawal periods to deal with and is nightmarish unless done at a glacial pace over several months and then the user might still experience "Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome" which can last indefinitely.

And who cares if you use Kratom anyways? No one in this thread is trying get other people to use it.

R59, if you can't see how crazy that poster comes off in his posts, that's on you. He, and OP, sound reactionarily triggered and defensive just like all addicts sound when you dare point out that they are acting like crazy addicts.

R59, the thread title alone reads addict. It's a "threat", in fact, a "new threat" to their drug because there have been other threats to their drug supply before. I bet OP seeks out information on these threats a lot. Another sign of an addict.

Agree, r60/r61. There's both desperation and manipulation going on, plus the urge to attack anyone who questions the efficacy or legitimacy of this powerful opioid substitute.

[quote][R57] No they don't, r46 made concise points to combat the "Reefer Madness" levels of bullshit and hysteria about Kratom that have been posted in this thread.

[quote]A psychiatrist suggesting someone use bupenephrine, one of the strongest opiods there is instead of Kratom is ludicrous. Bupe/Suboxone is one of the longest withdrawal periods to deal with and is nightmarish unless done at a glacial pace over several months and then the user might still experience "Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome" which can last indefinitely.

Thanks, r59, but it's clearly pointless trying to have a rational discussion when you have posters like r55, who is utterly convinced that a stranger on a message board is trying for some inexplicable reason to get them hooked on that devil drug. I just reread this entire thread again. I see people talking about their own experiences, but despite r55's shrill projections, there is not one single instance of anyone trying to talk anyone else into trying it. Not one. r55 is inferring that incorrectly.

I am willing to bet that r50 did not read the reviews in the webmd site they posted. Well over 800 full-throated testimonials as to how kratom has improved their quality of life by managing their pain. There are only a few dozen against.

Note: THIS IS NOT A SUGGESTION THAT ANYONE TRY KRATOM! It's simply information, which is a thing that adults use in order to make up their own minds.

[quote][R55], who is utterly convinced that a stranger on a message board is trying for some inexplicable reason to get them hooked on that devil drug

I said no such thing, and your attempt to frame what I said as some kind of hysterical anti-drug propaganda just highlights your dishonesty.

[quote]there are no cases of OD deaths on buprenorphine alone

[quote]Not one from kratom, either.

Only because deaths potentially caused by kratom couldn't be identified because everyone who died also had other drugs in their system at the same time.

Here ya go, R63--from the Mayo Clinic. Kratom: unsafe and ineffective.

[quote]there are no cases of OD deaths on buprenorphine alone - r33

[quote]Not one from kratom, either. - r34

[quote]Only because deaths potentially caused by kratom couldn't be identified because everyone who died also had other drugs in their system at the same time. - r65

So...there hasn't been a single death attributed to kratom alone, correct? Has it not occurred to you that it was maybe one of the other drugs (a true opiate in most cases) were responsible?

That was posted upthread already, r66. Have you forgotten already? I read it then. and just now reread it. A lot of "may"s and "might"s and "reported to be"s. Mayo isn't wrong that it needs more research. Kratom is a drug. Like any drug it needs to be researched and used sparingly, and with caution.

Great link at r65, though. It's a fascinating and mostly unbiased read.

Thanks.

I didn't forget, R66. I posted that twice to prove a point aout it. The Mayo Clinic is stating it is unsafe and ineffective--no "may be."

If you are worried about kratom, you shouldn’t take it. Why are you so upset about other people’s choices? There is no completely safe drug. You’re lucky if you don’t need or want to take any. People should know the pros and cons and make their own decisions.

Several years ago, the government threatened to ban kratom and their was an intense objection from so many people who find it helpful that they dropped the issue. Sooner or later it will be banned anyway, I’m sure.

I'm posting legit links from legit places that warn against kratom to balance out all the posts that insist it's nothing to worry about, OP.

You sound confused, r68. YOU'RE r66. I'm r67.

Posting something twice doesn't make it truer. If you actually read the Mayo article instead of cherry-picking it, you will see it is packed with "may"s and "might"s and "reported to be"s in order to come to the conclusion that it is "unsafe and ineffective". It incorrectly states that it causes "Seizure, coma and death" when there are NO cases of death from kratom alone. None. Zero.

[quote]Several years ago, the government threatened to ban kratom and their was an intense objection from so many people who find it helpful that they dropped the issue. Sooner or later it will be banned anyway, I’m sure.

That's a reasonable response to r61, r69

[quote]I'm posting legit links from legit places that warn against kratom to balance out all the posts that insist it's nothing to worry about, OP.

Please quote one single post in this thread that claims that kratom is "nothing to worry about". r70. Just one. You cannot, because there isn't one. Kratom is a drug. All drugs need to be approached with caution.

R71, you are so desperate to act as if kratom isn't an opioid-adjacent drug that's actually harmful. The Mayo Clinic is very clear: don't take it. Especially don't take it for the reasons people calim to take it because it's not effective. Period.

[quote]you are so desperate to act as if kratom isn't an opioid-adjacent drug

I have never, not ever, said that. That is another errant inference. I did say:

[quote]Kratom is much like that - in fact, it is related to the coffee plant.

because, when used properly, and in moderation, kratom's effect is mild to the point that many think its a placebo - which it clearly is not. It's a drug. I have repeatedly said that,. I've also said:

[quote]Until kratom has been FDA approved, it is wise to approach it with caution (true of any drug or supplement, actually). I have never used it more than twice a week.

[quote]Kratom is a drug. Like any drug it needs to be researched and used sparingly, and with caution.

Still waiting on your response to this:

[quote]Please quote one single post in this thread that claims that kratom is "nothing to worry about". [R70]. Just one. You cannot, because there isn't one. Kratom is a drug. All drugs need to be approached with caution.

R73, you're tiresome, but that's fine. Bottom line: only a fool would use this highly addictive substance. The Mayo Clinic has made it clear, with no ifs, ands, or buts: kratom is unsafe and ineffective. That's really all that needs to be said here.

Ok. So you can't respond to this, then, r74? That's the only reason to shut down discussion.

[quote]I'm posting legit links from legit places that warn against kratom to balance out all the posts that insist it's nothing to worry about

[quote]Please quote one single post in this thread that claims that kratom is "nothing to worry about". [[R70]]. Just one. You cannot, because there isn't one. Kratom is a drug. All drugs need to be approached with caution.

Could that be because you misrepresented others in this thread?

C'mon now. I haven't weighed in on this yet, but I was having a horrible time a few years ago and started using Kratom. I understand there are some users who go all in, just like some vegans, cross-fitters, "microdosers" and the like. And thank God for them, because they are the ones to get involved and make sure this stays legal. This is anecdotal, but Kratom helped my crushing depression. I dose a few times a day. It makes alcohol unappealing where I'd be sure to be an alcoholic by now, if not something worse. This is about harm reduction. No one is saying to go hog wild with Kratom if you're pain free and living your best life. But if you're trying to get off opiates or alcohol, or if traditional medicine isn't helping you, it's something to have in your arsenal.

Please understand I'm not judging, but I kind of thought this was a place you could admit to things that may be "different." In my (terribly small, homophobic) world that I live in, saying you spend your weekends at orgies and don't worry about HIV because PrEp , and YOLO because other STIs aren't fatal, would have people tsk-tsking about *your * health the very same way I see some posters here regarding Kratom.

r76 thank you for sharing your experience. I've been using kratom for a year and it definitely helped ease my depression.

Thank you both, r76, r77. It was getting lonely in here. Glad that your have found the help that you need and are using it responsibly. Do be careful. It absolutely can be addictive. I stick yo 2 or 3 times a week.

Because we are apparently posting things twice now, read how others are also taking their health into their own hands.

I've been using it for 8(?) years. I would never recommend it to anyone but goddammit it, now I have to try and stock up. Literally the only thing good about 45's term was knowing that kratom was safe due to dysfunction and possible bribery.

I use it multiple times a day and I like it for energy. When I was much younger, I was addicted to heroin. I kicked that and was fine for about 15 years until I started up with percosets several years ago. Now that percs are gone/hard to get (and that's a good thing!), this is my maintenance drug. I tried poppy seed tea a few years ago and though it was all right, I could see it becoming a big problem. Kratom works for me. Yes, I'm addicted but so what, it's my body and I don't have to commit crimes to afford it.

I'm here too r78 :)

[quote]Please understand I'm not judging, but I kind of thought this was a place you could admit to things that may be "different."

Oh brother.

R76, that is a passive-aggressive guilt trip that basically says "gays are different so I thought they'd be accepting of other 'different' things, too" and it's pretty damn offensive, but your feelings are hurt, so of course you're trying deliberately to be offensive. Such juvenile behavior.

Datalounge is nobody's safe space. People can and will criticize others, especially if someone is lying, shilling, and overtly hostile. Early comments on this thread were casual, off-hand and maybe teasing. The people who use kratom got defensive, angry, hostile, and pushy. One guy flared up at the kratom users for a bit yesterday but for the most part, comments about kratom being unknown, untested and potentially dangerous have been tame and accompanied by legitimate links and medical research.

You responding to all that saying that we gays shouldn't be acting this way, and repeating the same claim all the other people have about how we're just petty closed-minded schoolmarms going tsk tsk, is beyond offensive.

Also, I have to say that the fact that every single one of you has gone the "yer jus' Reefer Madness old lady prudes" route makes me think that either the kratom community is a small, closed-minded echo chamber, or you're all actually one person who only has one comeback.

Either way, I get that you, like all the other obsessive crazies who flock to Datalounge, are going to keep using your thread to shill, just like you guys did every other time you showed up. But my suggestion to you is that if you really do want to get taken seriously, you put your big boy pants on and start acting like adults for once.

R80 You're completely oblivious to the fact that you are the one who is coming off as repetitive, hostile and obsessed. No one is shilling, there are separate posters replying, and you're coming across as deranged.

Great, schoolmarm/r80. You have properly chastised us now so can we now count on you to shut the fuck up? We don't care if you don't take us seriously. There is no need for us to get your approval.

Yay, Jay/r79! Good for you. :)

With me it's pain and sleep management Occasionally I'll use it for a boost in energy.

Thanks again, r59/r81

All I've done throughout this thread is point out the dangers, based on what I read. I have no dog in this race, nor do I think it should be illegal. But anything that's an opioid or functions like one I personally feel is somewhere I would not go. I've followed the horrible Sackler family, who are collectively and almost singlehandedly responsible for the opioid epidemic--I read the recent book, saw the HBO series-- and thought: no way would I go anywhere near that kind of drug. That's me. When kratom was suggested to me for anxiety, I looked into it and said no.

Just for the record, I never said not do I believe that unregulated Kratom is safe. I simply wanted to point out that chronic pain patients, especially the poor ones, are given no health alternatives. Pain medicine is very much a vital treatment for people with crippling, life altering pain. It is the difference between being capable of carrying on with activities of daily living or being rendered incapable. It causes depression, and unbelievable stress and anxiety. One doctor even told me it can cause the body to release to release adrenaline, the fight or flight mode. It is not healthy or fair, and very unnecessary to force people with illness such as MS to suffer needlessly. I struggle to carry on be capable of self care. My worst nightmare is becoming a burden. Having effective pain control is a huge part of that. Kratom causes me to suffer from increased insomnia, headaches, and it increases my blood pressure. I have to be in agony before I will take one. It has no dosage guidelines, nothing. It should not be this way and if I had money it would not. Some rich county we live in.

[quote]All I've done throughout this thread is point out the dangers, based on what I read.

If that was all you've done, r83, that would be wonderful. You read a book and watched a movie, did your research and decided it wasn't for you. That's reasonable - but you didn't stop there. You chose to question other peoples' choices . To call them "hopped up" and suggest that they have a "problem" and need "help". You claim that there's "desperation and manipulation going on" and you accuse people of trying to get you to try what works for us.

You admit that you use "edibles for recreational fun", r4/r83, etc, so you're a hypocrite. Any pro-kratom person in this thread is using it to improve the quality of their lives. not for recreation. They manage their pain (r6, r32, r84), depression (r72). Their addictions (r79/Jay! :) ).

You say that those who do avail themselves of relief are "some people have had a rough time". They're "fools". You say they claim that kratom, is "nothing to worry about" (still waiting on your proof of that whopper, r70), ""desperate" "tiresome (r74), "shills" (r80), "lying, shilling, and overtly hostile" "defensive, angry, hostile, and pushy" (r80, again, and repetitive - shills and hostility twice?)

R85- Thank you, I mean that. It is so easy for judgemental assholes who have never had any untreated chronic pain to judge others. I hope one day he does know.

R86, I did say all that and I meant it. It seems like a very foolish thing to get on when there are a plethora of alternatives to managing pain in this day and age. And since you're being insulting, I'll be the same to you: go fuck yourself. You're an aggressive asshole.

Speaking of aggressive assholes--look at R86, who actually wishes that one day I will be in horrible pain. To you I say: go fuck yourself, you cunt.

Some people don't deserve any better.

Bye, douchebags!

Hang in there, r86.

R87- Thank you, you are ab angel. 😘

R87- Oh, no! Was it something we said? 🙄

R89-Sigh, an , not ab.

[quote] Do you drink coffee/tea for its uplifting aspects, [R7]? Kratom is much like that - in fact, it is related to the coffee plant. [R6] is correct. It is helpful for pain relief, and can calm nerves, improve sleep. It's good for some PTSD sufferers.

It does provide pain relief and can help a person sleep. But it can also keep you up all night if you keep taking it to keep your buzz going all night, which I used to do in the first couple years of my kratom use. It is not like coffee really at all. It IS an opiate. It works on the opioid receptors in your brain. That’s why it can make your skin itch when you first start using it, and it’s why it makes you constipated, and why it works as a substitute for more dangerous opiates like heroin, etc.

Is it safer than heroin/OxyContin/fentanyl? Yes. Should it be fully legal and unregulated? No.

I say this as someone who has been a kratom addict for six full years. It has been hell getting off it. I finally was able to stick to a strict tapering regimen, starting this past February when I began microdosing psilocybin. (I have posted a lot in DL’s first thread on that topic, which is mostly about growing your own but also touches on microdosing.)

If you want to know some horror stories, read the “quitting kratom” sub-Reddit.

I am down to taking mere specks of the stuff twice a day now, and am so thankful to have finally gotten to this point. Weed and microdosing are all I need. I’ve slowly been getting my life back. No more constipation, no more bloating, no more depression. I have energy and motivation. The hair loss I was starting to experience is now starting to reverse itself. My sex drive is back with a vengeance.

My sympathies to anyone who currently uses kratom for pain management. This isn’t the first time its legal status has been threatened, so I know what the anxiety is like. But I would recommend that if a ban actually occurs, buy as much as you can of the best strain from your preferred vendor (likely that’ll be someone online and not a head shop or gas station), and start a tapering regimen to get yourself off it.

If you don’t feel the need to quit now—trust me, you almost certainly will eventually. And when the time comes, do a long, slow taper, and stick to it. You don’t need suboxone, you only need to taper. If you insist on going cold turkey, prepare to go through hell.

Happy to answer any questions anyone has about kratom.

LOL, r90! r87 is enough to make a saint swear (bets that they aren't really gone?)

Speaking of. r87, you're confused again. You meant to address this:

[quote][R86], I did say all that and I meant it. It seems like a very foolish thing to get on when there are a plethora of alternatives to managing pain in this day and age. And since you're being insulting, I'll be the same to you: go fuck yourself. You're an aggressive asshole.""

to me, r85, didn't you? You just couldn't unclench your pearls long enough to use your words properly. You have some nerve calling me a "fool", "desperate" "tiresome", "lying, shilling, and overtly hostile" "defensive, angry, hostile, and pushy" (you know, being insulting?) and THEN get all precious and high and mighty and upset when I finally had enough and told you to fuck off.

I don't wish pain on you, but it seems that is the only way you could ever have anything resembling sympathy. So just get the fuck out and don't come back. Please.

[quote]If you don’t feel the need to quit now—trust me, you almost certainly will eventually.

No doubt that can happen, r91. Like any drug, you need to be careful. Use the drug, don't let the drug use you. Abuse is not a certainty. I've used kratom on and off for 2 decades. Never itched, became constipated, bloated or depressed. No hair loss or diminished sex drive. Just because it happened to you doesn't mean it will happen to others.

I still use it for sleep enhancement, pain relief and PTSD, but I have always used it sparingly. If you have an addictive personality, you probably shouldn't use it or any other drug. I'm glad you have a handle on your addiction. I'm sure others can benefit from your cautionary tale. Best of luck with your continuing recovery

Those psilocybin threads were/are interesting.

Yeah, I definitely have an addictive personality, R93. Runs in my family, on both sides—though almost all the functioning addicts have been alcoholics, and I’ve never gone down that road. If I ever tried heroin, though... yikes. Let’s just say I know not to, ever. My boyfriend said I’d be dead within a year, and he’s probably right.

When I was at the height of my kratom addiction, I started having dreams about shooting heroin, which had never happened before (and I’ve never even come close to doing it, ever—the one time I was even in the room with someone shooting up, 20 years ago, I was horrified).

There are probably lots of other “casual” kratom users out there, like you. I’m only familiar with the addicts like myself, because I frequent the r/quittingkratom board. I tend to assume everyone will eventually start using it multiple times a day, every 3-4 hours, for years—because that’s what I worked up to, and I’ve heard the same story from so many people. But it’s not a universal experience.

I have never been addicted to opiates. I went from 45mg a day for 7 years to nothing when my neurologist retired and had no withdrawal. I think it may different for chronic pain patients, but I really do not know why. I have never felt euphoria or whatever these pain meds to for others. They just level my pain to about 3. As the day goes on, pain levels increase. Pain meds just keep the level to a bearable level so you can still function. I have never ordered from the net, but am about to. I do hope the quality will be much better than the crap I have bought from the local head shop, lol.

Aw, r94. I understand your mindset better now. I'm glad you're on the right track now. I'll keep an eye out for you here if you ever need to talk. Call me "nobody" (r93). I might want to pick your mind about psilocybin.

R95, you're r32? Bless ya, darling. I could have written your post myself. I am also managing fine. Check r88 for a very reliable and consistent source. Reasonably priced, too.

R59. You are WRONG.. Buprenorphine is NOT "the strongest opioid" LOL. That would be fentanyl, idiot.

IT IS A PARTIAL ANTAGONIST AT THE OPIOID MU RECEPTORS.

IT IS AN OPIATE BLOCKER!!!!!!!

IT also has a MILD agonistic activity at the mu receptor. BUT IS AN ANTAGONIST as well.

At higher doses, the antagonistic effects dominate. No overdose deaths due to this.

SAFE!! Just don't inject it.

SO STFU and STOP spreading misinformation about opioids.

R86. Oh for sure. No one has ever experienced pain like yours...

Most of us take some ibuprofen and are good to go. Oh and BTW I have Rh arthritis which causes a lot of pain. I have learned to cope with it without needing opiates or kratom. You should look for ways to control your pain that don't involve opiates. They have never been meant for long term use. This need for opiates for non cancer/non trauma/non surgical pain is an artifact of the final quarter of the 20th century. You know, when "spoon theory" became a medical term.

Ah, our psychotic psychiatrist with the ANGER! MANAGEMENT! ISSUES! has returned.

Please do keep posting, crazy person. Eventually someone will figure out who you are and you'll lose your license.

[quote]Ok [R34] Go to hell you obsessive dolt. Take your fucking kratom with you. And yes, it will probably be illegal in a year or two, and you will have to find another addictive drug to placate your "pain" which quite frankly sounds very psychosomatic. Or as we say "supratentorial".

Angry, psychotic AND pompous. She's a hat trick!

(She's also r99)

Ah datalounge, how I love thee.

Psychiatrist is also r98.

I'm agent 99

Such compassion. You are a big part of what is wrong with health care. Someone is going to slap the shit out of you one day. Physician, heal thyself. I recommend thorazine. You need to be doing the thorazine shuffle. Blocked for Insanity.

You nailed it, r101. This is the psychotic psychiatrist, r33, who doesn't mind if you use MJ (as she so quaintly puts it - surprised she didn't call it Mary Jane) after work and in moderation. So very generous!

[quote][R32]. Try finding a private practice psychiatrist. I am one, and I prescribe buprenorphine to opiate addicts. many who have chronic pain that led to addiction. I don't care if they use MJ at night after work/in moderation. There are some who I prescribe benzos to (I keep dosing under 2 mg/day). I don't drug test - I know my patients and encourage honesty.

[quote]Buprenorphine can help reduce pain, and is becoming more popular as a pain med. It has a low abuse potential and there are no cases of OD deaths on buprenorphine alone, due to the fact that it is a partial blocker of the opiate receptor. You should look into getting on this.

Yeah. Get right on that, r101, will you? Your MS, degenerative disc disease, arthritis, and osteoporosis isn't that bad. Wouldn't you want this woman to manage your pain?

[quote][R29] It is clear you are an idiot. Check out "Google Scholar" to look up peer reviewed papers on kratom addiction, withdrawal and use of buprenorphine to treat kratom addiction. I shouldn't have to do that work for you. Ah, but you are probably not capable of understanding the scientific literature. So go ahead and pretend kratom is a safe drug with no addictive potential and no potential for bad, bad withdrawals. -[R20]

R101 You are a bane on the healthcare system. A personality disordered drug seeking hypochondriac. It's your types that cause such waste in the healthcare system.

I hope one day you get to the experience the exquisite pain of bone metastases. Then you will realize your were a drug seeking fool who never knew what hardcore pain was.

I know my worth and my patients, many with chronic pain, have been with me for years and years. I don't cater to personality disordered psychosomatic drug seeking people. I was one of the first doctors in NYS to get the medical marijuana license, despite threats from the DEA that I would lose the ability to prescribe controlled substances. I have championed for the use of cannabis for pain and anxiety/depression/PTSD.

FYI In the EU, outpatient prescriptions for opiates are EXTREMELY RARE. I would assume that there are equal numbers of patients in pain in the EU as there are in the US. Why is it that there is a subclass of Americans who feel they cannot live without ingesting opiates daily? That doesn't exist in the EU. When I attend medical conferences in the EU, there is minimal discussion of opiates, which are reserved for extreme pain due to known etiologies - CA, trauma.

Europeans in chronic pain have found a way to live meaningful and good lives, free of opiates. I believe that the intense need for opiates is not just pain, but to treat depression/despair. Look at W VA, Oxycontin HQ. Life there has become awful, no work that pays, loss of community. They turned to opiates to treat their physical pain, but also to treat their despair.

[quote][R101] You are a bane on the healthcare system. A personality disordered drug seeking hypochondriac. It's your types that cause such waste in the healthcare system. I hope one day you get to the experience the exquisite pain of bone metastases. Then you will realize your were a drug seeking fool who never knew what hardcore pain was.

Oh yes. r101, I forgot that the psychopathic psychiatrist is also a psychic. She knows that your MS, degenerative disc disease, arthritis, and osteoporosis is psychosomatic. Funny, she diagnosed me as psychosomatic, too! And she's never met either of us.

R103- One day you will face your karma, 10 fold. You will be suffering and no one will give a fuck. I know your type well. You are a sadistic narcissist and you chose pain management for two reasons. The first is because you are too incompetent to specialize in a more challenging area of medicine. The second reason is too cause pain and suffering to your patients and blame them for needing pain relief to have any degree of quality of life. Can people do without pain management? Yes. Should they have to suffer and have a greatly reduced quality of life? Of course not. That is cruel and unnecessary. You are a sadistic cunt. A very inadequate doctor and human being who takes your inadequacy out on your innocent patients. I wish you only what you inflict upon others.

[quote]I believe that the intense need for opiates is not just pain, but to treat depression/despair. Look at W VA, Oxycontin HQ. Life there has become awful, no work that pays, loss of community. They turned to opiates to treat their physical pain, but also to treat their despair.

r103 is also a philosopher!

I'm sorry to jest, r105. It's just that this awful person is so mockable. Behold!

[quote]I have championed for the use of cannabis for pain and anxiety/depression/PTSD. - r103

[quote]I don't care if they use MJ at night after work/in moderation. - r33

So generous!

I hate to say it, but this back and forth is becoming tiresome

I'd love for you to come in and break it up, r107. Got any thing useful to say?

Or do you have any questions?

Sorry, R108, I already said a lot at R91 and R94. This thread could become useful again, and I hope it does. I just don’t think this brawl between 2 people is helping anything. Do you?

Actually, it's more of a free for all with 4 or 5 people, r109, but sure, I'll bow out.

Here's part 2 of the fun guys.

To be fair, it's not a brawl between two people. Every kratom thread we've had that starts with claims that scientific studies are wrong and kratom shouldn't be regulated immediately attracts several people touting kratom as being perfect, they attack anyone who says otherwise with ad hominem attacks, and eventually the "doctor" shows up, and wishes death and terminal pain on anyone who uses kratom.

That's an old troll trick, have someone show up and make crazy attacks on you to make you look like the victim.

Anyway, if you really want Datalounge's opinion on kratom, just go to Google and look up posts. You'll see someone who was touting maeng da powder as a lifesaver in 2016 and 2017, who, by 2020, was an addict looking to get off it. I believe he already posted on this thread.

^^^willing to give you the song and the dance, but not the link?

I found myself addicted to it a few years ago. Definitely had withdrawals when I stopped using it. Took about a year to quit completely.

Other fun side effect: Constipation

Be aware that kratom is already illegal in some states and other states can ban it at any time. It’s not just the feds we need to worry about.

R42 In typical American fashion, the response to the opiod issue is ham handed and extreme. I've never been used opiods except in limited amounts post surgery etc, no drug abuse or drug seeking in my entire life (I'm older), yet when I went for help for chronic leg spasms related to a back problem, when no organic issue found I was routed to a pain clinic where I was promptly treated as though I was drug seeking, including drug tests etc. At no time did I ever even ask for a want drugs, I wanted to find a remedy for the spasms.

We've swung from one extreme to another. Chronic pain is real, pervasive, and seems so little research or breakthroughs. Oh and I've used kratom too on occasion, for years, no problems.

This was a fun thread.

Kratom helps in getting off heroin addiction and relieves chronic pain.

Unfortunately, Kratom will eventually be regulated or banned. It’s good while it lasts though.

I don't have anything against it but people kept telling me how great it was and so I tried it. It didn't do anything for me at all. It didn't help pain which is why I took it and it didn't help mood or any of the other thing it said it would. I even had a long conversation with the woman who owned the store about how much to take and she wanted to know what I wanted it for and so she gave me some. but it didn't do anything except make me slightly nauseated. I prefer edibles but some people swear by it. I think it is psychological like a placebo. they are told it does certain things so they feel better when they take it. Your brain can trick you.