Is there still a stigma surrounding spinsters?

What do you call a gay male 'spinster'?

R1, a Datalounger.

Yes there is still stigma, and the spinster ladies I know are kinda not nice

[R2] They were called incorrigible bachelors in my family.

My aunt is a spinster. She's 82, was married once in the 70's but then her husband returned from Vietnam as an alcoholic and she divorced him. She never dated anyone again and never had kids. People who meet her assume she is gay because she looks it and she likely is but she was too religious to ever admit or pursue it. I have to admit that I admire her for going through life alone and doing ok. I don't see myself as ever having another relationship so I'll likely end up like her. I'm ok with that though.

R5, if she was married and divorced she’s not a spinster.

There's a perception that their cunts have never been used sexually and so they are somewhat out of touch with life.

[quote] if she was married and divorced she’s not a spinster

But definitely is a lesbian.

Yes, that aunt is a divorcee... not a spinster.

I'll weigh in. I'm 46, never married, no children, and never had a desire for a husband or children. I had myself sterilized when I was 32. I do have a partner of 5 years and like being in a relationship but don't want to move in together. The last relationship was ten years. I think living alone is greatly underrated. I live in a fairly large city and my close friends here and in the city I moved from are all similar ages and child-free although some are married. I have no close friends with children and my closest friends are either self-employed as I am or work in non-traditional settings ie no office full of fraus. And again, in a pretty large city.

As such, none of us feel or ever felt pressure to have kids or get married. Maybe women who live in suburban or rural areas and work around a lot of women have a different experience but that's mine. Nothing about having children looks appealing to me and frankly, I can't think of anything dumber a human could do. Suburban, middle class, 2.5 kids kind of life is my idea of hell and I stringently avoided it. In the wise and immortal words of Aunt Ida even though I'm straight, "The world of the heterosexual is a sick and boring life."

How did a straight girl end up on DL? I got fed up with all the glowing media reports about Shann'an or ever the hell how the ultimate frau spelled it, Watts when she was quite clearly an insufferable cunt. So I Googled, "Shann'an Watts was a cunt" and Boom! DL was the first result. Been here ever since.

[quote] but I know through talking with other family members she considers being unmarried and childless one of the great losses of her life.

Unless you heard it from her, you don't know what she thinks. People make shit up about family members all the time and they probably do it about you too.

r11 sorry, I trust the family member I heard it from

There's a difference between heteros and homos on this point. Because, historically, we had no option to marry, and any relationship had to be secret, it was sort of expected for many years that we would be "single" and, obviously, childless. This still lingers somewhat today, so that there are many single old gays (and even a few single old lesbians) who probably would have married and had kids if they had been straight.

For the heteros, it's a different matter. A straight woman who never marries, never has a child, and never has a long-term relationship is presumed to be either asexual or very eccentric indeed. Like, cat-lady crazy. A "straignt" man who never marries, never has a long-term relationship), and never fathers a child is assumed to be gay and on the DL. Some people may imagine that the crazy cat lady is a virgin. No one expects a 60-year-old man to be a virgin; if he is, and he's not an ex-priest, then he's seriously fucked up.

I'm referring to old people, by the way, old enough to have reached an age where it's obvious that they'll never have a permanent relationship or children. I'm not talking about basement-dwelling 25-year-old gamers, who may still end up settling for someone, someday.

The term "spinster" referred to respectable women who never married and, thus, were presumed to be virgins. It did not and does not encompass women who slept around for 30 years, women who were long-term mistresses of married men, or women who lived with one or more men in committed relationships without ever getting married. Such women would have been beyond the pale of respectable society when "spinster" was in common use. Today, the word has little currency or meaning.

Yes, there's still a stigma. Even if the "old maid," herself, feels good about her life, others will judge. In the end, though, it's how you feel about your life that matters. Sometimes, I look at someone and feel sorry for them. Then, I realize, maybe they look at me and feel sorry for me.

I had a kid when I was 18 so maybe I don't technically meet the criteria for spinstership but I think I do. I have never been married or in a long term relationship really. I have been intentionally single for several years now and have no interest in future relationships.

I am so matter of fact about it that no one really questions it. I am. considered to hold pretty odd views about most things though so people just chalk it up for one more thing.

If anyone thinks that I am a lesbian it's because I am pretty opinionated and vocal about my opinions and perfectly self sufficient not because I have never been married. Men have always been very physically attracted to me and even fat and old(er) I have unwanted attention.

I don't think there's any stigma except maybe in religious or Southern places.

We don’t say “spinster”anymore, dear.

I have a couple of female friends who really began to hear the clock ticking in their thirties. They both really seemed to be bothered by the idea that they were single, and both ended up marrying men they weren’t entirely sure of. One of them is in a boring marriage to a very nice man, and they have the same values so it has worked out, even though I doubt they ever really excite one another. The other fooled herself that the man she married was an entirely different type of person. She convinced herself that he was family-oriented, romantic, and eager to set up a cosy home in which to bring up a few kids. In reality, she is married to an eternal student and careerist who treats his marriage as a box he has ticked.

I think both my friends fell victim to societal pressure. Being married to men with whom they are incompatible seemed better than life alone. I feel sad for them, and yet I am sure they pity me for living alone!

I think at a certain point in one’s life, one will meet misery in their situation one way or another, married or single. I am 38, single with no children. Did have a few long-term relationships but like the poster above, I was brought up in suburbia where the women married the first man they had sex with and then had kids. Even at a young age I could feel their misery and felt repelled by that sort of life. Maybe I internalized it to the point of it becoming damaging but I think I would be miserable in a marriage. I think most people I know who are married are in fact, miserable. Those who judge people for not falling victim to pressures of society are followers, in a sense. At least I know myself and conduct my life accordingly. We live in such a wildly different world now, what is even normal anymore? What are the guidelines and concrete milestones we must hit in order to be “making it”? At this point we are all just doing our best to get by. Less judgement, more acceptance and open-mindedness. Not to mention, dealing with straight men has it’s own set of issues. I would rather come and go with them as I please rather than tethering myself to one singular one for life.

Had a spinster in our family. An Aunt. I swore she was a lesbian, I mean she looked like a 50 year old Justin Bieber. Then boom she married this really hot guy, I mean blue collar built like a brick shit house good guy guy. We were all shocked.

r17 speak for yourself. While archaic, people over, hmmm, 30 -- so DL's demographic -- still recognize it.

And besides, according to Merriam-Webster, its usage is only archaic in the sense of "an unmarried woman of gentle family," not an unmarried woman, period.

No. We have all evolved to embrace everyone doing their own thing and not pass judgement.

[quote]We have all evolved to embrace everyone doing their own thing and not pass judgement.

Surely you jest.

Those never married have more chance of breast cancer

I had a great aunt on one side of the family and an aunt on the other whose husbands cheated on them in the early 1970s, they dumped them immediately and never dated again. Both had one child each, though, and didn't seem to have much of a problem as far as societal expectations, except for some women who were aghast that they divorced their husbands without a second of hesitation.

A cousin of mine married right out of high school but never had kids and has had endless problems with doctors giving her shit about it, coworkers, friends, you name it. Our relatives haven't been so bad for whatever reason, as far as I know they never said anything, but at one point she had a nurse practitioner told her something along the lines of "well you'd better get a hysterectomy then if you're not going to actually USE it."

R22 is joking, surely.

Really, r24?

My mom was an RN for many years. I once asked her about the saddest patient/case she could remember. She said early in her career she took care of a woman dying of ovarian cancer. And this woman had no family and no friends with her. That story always stayed with me.

Is this thread from the 1950s?

[quote]I had a kid when I was 18 so maybe I don't technically meet the criteria for spinstership but I think I do.

Nah, a big part of the 'stigma' is the idea that a woman hasn't fulfilled what society deems her core function, which is to make babies. You've done it, so they can't use that against you.

I think the stigma is more prevalent than some people here are acknowledging - DL is hardly a typical sample pool. The idea of a woman living for herself the way men have always done is still an uneasy one for a hell of a lot of people. Even if a woman has spent a big part of her life getting an education and following a career track there's often a sense that it's temporary, that eventually it will give way to the centering of family life. Women are socialized to give and give and give, prioritizing everyone else above themselves. A woman who goes against that is really swimming upstream.

r29 I once worked with a woman in her 50s who was unmarried and childless. She was also rather conservative, not politically but socially. Interestingly, she assumed the role of caretaker of our circle, always doing favors, cooking meals, helping out in any way she could. (And everyone liked her.) When her parents began to decline, her siblings scattered and she became their caretakers as well, which involved significant sacrifices.

I have no idea if she'd wanted to have her own family, but it was almost as if she felt the need to compensate for not having one. She still wanted to prove that she was self-sacrificial and nurturing because she was a woman.

Yes, there's still a stigma. You need look no further than the Data Lounge where almost every week someone proposes that X male actor, football player, singer, TikTok celebrity is pushing 30 years old and not married. What's wrong with him? Is he gay?

It's fucking ridiculous, but it exists. In the U.S. average age of marriage is 29.8 for men and 28 for women; in only 6 of 47 European countries is the average for men less than 30, and then not wildly less. (Ireland still has the highest age for marriage for men at 36.8).

I can't imagine being miserable about not being married or not having children at age 50. Even as one reflected on the "wouldn't it be nice" angle of marriage or a long-term partner, you would have to likewise count your blessings at having dodged various disasters that could have been, both real prospects and hypothetical. As for what makes people feel bad about being childless I can only guess, though it seems people are pressured (knowingly or unknowingly) into images of completeness, and some buckle under the weight of not having met an imposed expectation.

I used to work with a woman in her late 50s, no kids neve been married, she was the nastiest, most bitter, cruelest bitch i have ever met. We all wondered if this was why she was single, or if being single with no children made her this way. In any case we didn't care and were glad when she was made redundant.

I asked Miss Sissy Boodles but her response was ambiguous. Now if you'll excuse me, those Precious Moments aren't going to dust themselves!

[quote] Women are socialized to give and give and give, prioritizing everyone else above themselves.

Surely you jest.

[quote] I had myself sterilized when I was 32.

Really? How does that work for a woman - I mean is it equivalent to a vasectomy in men where it is reversible? If not, that seems like a pretty drastic step to take.

The reality is that unmarried women, especially older unmarried women aka spinsters, are considered "lesser". No matter how successful they are (to a degree) or wonderful they are or loved by family, they are often afforded less respect because of their marital status. It's as if they were unable to attract a man to marry and therefore are less worthy and somehow damaged. And often to be pitied. Even a divorced woman who may have been a shitty partner or mother is higher on the social rung. And even more sadly the family rung by those who claim to love her.

That is the reality of the heterosexual world. I wish I could say that has changed I think it remains strong.

Sure, some people don’t like that some women make that choice.

Thinking about the women I know, they don’t want to compromise. There’s nothing really wrong with that. Being in a relationship requires compromise, through.

I should add the flipside of r30: I think people took advantage of her (even unconsciously) because she was single/childless and they asked her to do things because they figured her energy wasn't being expended on her own family

[quote] I think people took advantage of her (even unconsciously) because she was single/childless and they asked her to do things because they figured her energy wasn't being expended on her own family

That is a very wrong and dangerous assumption.

r40 trollin', trollin', trollin' ...

How am I trolling? What the fuck are you even talking about?

If they are over 40 and not married they are not spinsters but lesbians or VERY UGLY. Mostly both.

I see spinsters as being older snd thin, with bony fingers. Perhaps long gray hair in a tight bun.

It’s hard to imagine curvy spinsters.

R43 is probably a troll, but I’ll respond. I know quite a few women in the metro NYC area who are great-looking, fun, social, successful careers, etc., who can’t sustain romantic relationships. They’re great to be friends with, but for some reason it doesn’t work out, with men, ever. They’re not ugly, not lesbians. If they were, they’d be out.

One that I’m very close to is constantly on the dating apps, sees a therapist for whatever her intimacy issues are. She is 50 now, but I’ve known her since we were 24. She is extremely picky and would never date a teacher or electrician. She has flings with married men.

"Confirmed bachelor" had at least a hint of "homo!" to it, but it was more an open-ended question, and not expressly malicious. It could mean a man who never married, a ladies' man who never going to settle down, a gay man or possibly gay man not given to dating women, or a man who got whatever reason was not going to be walking down any wedding aisle.

"Spinster" though is a word with a lot of negative connotation, closer to "crone" than "not the marrying type," and with an implication of failure and/or disappointment. There are other parallels where a word specific to women has a more negative tone to the parallel word specific to men.

Not entirely true, R46. Now we have the descriptor "incel" for those straight, unmarried, unfuckable, men who are are too bitter and entitled to "settle" for ladies in their category of attractiveness.

Fascinating thread, and intriguing responses.

R27 and R36 both raise excellent points. Both trouble me sometimes, as a virginal possibly-asexual and autistic reclusive adult female singleton. In health and left to my own devices, I’m very content by myself and prefer my own company, always have; often I find others exhausting, stressful to be around, or confusing to the point of upset. I was the kid at school who sat alone with a book or played imaginary games by myself.

But there are days I wonder if I’ll make it through life’s trials with no-one in my life. What if I, knock on wood, get seriously ill—who’ll hold my hand at the hospital? What if I become homeless—who’ll let me stay with them indefinitely? What if I am being harassed—who’ll come to my defence and help me cope? What happens if my parents die or my few remaining blood relatives cut me off? There is no social safety net or support in my life, and while I might prefer it that way from a comfort perspective, I understand that it could one day present a problem. I’m not interested in dating, especially not men, but when someone creepy is in my vicinity and disturbing or harassing me I do get the appeal of being able to call on a strong partner as a threat. It’s the little things like that.

There is also the matter of wrongful assumption. Those who don’t take lovers or friends are avoided by society as a kneejerk reaction, for fear that there’s something amiss with them psychologically. It doesn’t occur to those who don’t know me that there’s nothing inhumane or monstrous about me, and maybe I’m just avoiding them first...

It’s a lot to consider, but still probably less stressful than negotiating an actual relationship (I wouldn’t know). People have started to offer to set me up, warn me about ‘the Clock’, and tut “what will people THINK?” about my status. I feel apathetic and ambivalent and detached about it all, same as I did when boys & girls alike would clumsily try to ask me out in our teens. I know I should care and I should feel pressure, but I just don’t. Sometimes I wonder whether I could be emotionally or developmentally delayed in some way—in terms of my inner values and priorities and desires, I feel more like a thirteen year-old rather twenty-eight year old.

And the strangest part of all is that I do think and fantasies about intimate relationships often—just not involving me. I voraciously read stories and watch movies about couples, and vicariously enjoy it thoroughly (it’s like emotional porn). Imagining myself with someone in any capacity closer than casual friendship is really difficult for me, and somewhat scary and abhorrent too. I have no idea what’s wrong with me, and I think therapy to figure it all out would take years and cost thousands!

We make the best of what we can inside our own frame, I guess.

R6 the previous comment reminded me of co-worker who said she was a widow. He didn't die until eight years they divorced and he was remarried.

r48 I'm both OP and r27.

I'm in my late 30s and have been, more or less, single all my life. I had a brief fling with an Italian professor in my early 20s (this is when I came out) and I have a couple of long-term fuck buddies. But in terms of a life partner, or even a long-term partner, it's never going to happen. I've made peace with it, more or less.

I have a terrible fear of death. I suppose the fear is universal, although sometimes I think it afflicts me more than most. (Perhaps that is only my self-involvement talking.) I also have a morbid fear of growing old and having no one. If I developed, eg, Alzheimer's (my mother developed it in her early 60s), I would become a burden to some distant family member and would wind up in the home sooner than I would if I had a partner. I've never wanted children, but they can be natural caretakers as well.

Dying alone seems a terrible fate. However ... sometimes I think it doesn't really matter if we die alone or not. We all die alone, essentially. Maybe in some ways it's a relief -- death is such a private thing, really.

I also think about it in terms of loneliness. I love being alone, and I prefer solitary activities (most of the time). I'm rarely really lonely. And when I am lonely, I recognize my carapace cannot be penetrated. It's a loneliness that rests at the very core of my being, terrifying and existential. It's not the loneliness of having no one to spend Friday night with.

Recently I was talking to a friend about what it's like to lose a parent (he's lost both of his; my mother is dying). I asked him if he's lonely, and he said, "Yes, I'm lonely all the time." There was a sadness in his face; I recognized it, the feeling of a hopeless loneliness, one that can only be mitigated for fleeting moments. It would have been foolish to tell him he had me, inadequate. I don't possess the antidote to alleviate his loneliness, as he doesn't have the one to mitigate mine.

Partnered or not, human life implies an inherent loneliness.

Intimacy issues I've been there Im still there I guess.

DLers, why would anyone want to be a straight woman with children and a mediocre straight male husband?

R52 Agree! Either a frau or a spinster. See how this works?

r45

Fuck you and you're anyone who disagrees with me is a troll. You're an asshole. Probably a fat overweight gay.

I've been single a long time, but I had a long-term relationship in my 20s that didn't work out. Trust me, you can be just as lonely inside a relationship as outside of one. Having a partner or even children is no guarantee of support in your old age: Plenty of people have children who live hundreds or even thousands of miles away. Sometimes even local children are useless. Long-term marriages can break down or you can end up emotionally deserted even if your partner is right there.

It's best to rely on yourself and your own inner resources, build a satisfying career and strong friendships, and not let romantic and family relationships define your identity.

As R50 says, we all die alone

[quote]Fuck you and you're anyone who disagrees with me is a troll.

Oh, DEAR!

There are more single women over 30 than there used to be because there can be. Up until the 1980s, it was very difficult for a woman to live on her own--women couldn't even get credit cards without their husband or father co-signing. Now that women can get educated, buy houses, and have careers without having to be married, many women are choosing to do just that. Hetero men are often big babies who want to be catered to and cared for while giving the minimum back. They want to control the household while not doing anything to keep the household going. That's why the divorce rates are high, too: Women figure out that they're raising the kids, bringing home a paycheck, and tending to the house, and the husband (maybe) works a job and then plays around with his friends nights and weekends. What's the point of putting up with that?

I feel called out by r14.

If you live among reactionary yahoos who are still living in the last century and believe women exist to serve their male masters and pop out as many babies as possible, yes.

R57 exactly. Women get married, have kids, ruin their body, devote their life to kids. Become overweight and depressed because of kids. Husband cheats. Divorce ensues. Gets who gets saddled with the kids while husband lives out his midlife crises with his secretary? I mean. We live in a world now where women do not have to take this avenue. Can we really blame them for dodging this now that they have the choice? I know it sounds cynical but this type of scenario is not rare.

Yeah, there's still a stigma or a bit of pity for unmarried women over 40. I knew a number of women who tied the knot at 38/39 and popped out a kid. Divorced women and single mothers don't fall into the same category.

And it's not just backwards areas where this is the case. If anything, it's worse in the land of coastal elites just because it takes two to afford a house.

Also, even now, a woman's social class is determined by her husband's socioeconomic status unless she's very wealthy--i.e. Patricia Hearst marrying her bodyguard.

[quote] While archaic, people over, hmmm, 30 -- so DL's demographic -- still recognize it.

Anyone who's passed high school English recognizes it.

It's a common enough word in Dickens, Austen and other writers.

[quote] even now, a woman's social class is determined by her husband's socioeconomic status

And straight men don't order salad in restaurants lest people think they're gay (from another thread)

More proof that many DLers really are stuck back in the 1980s.

As for you R61, there are a whole lot of unmarried female lawyers, doctors, bankers, and senior executives out there here in 2021 (though I suspect you refer to them as "Lady Doctors" and "Lady Executives")

[quote]More proof that many DLers really are stuck back in the 1980s.

This is hardly news.

Great Britain didn't formerly drop use of spinster (nor bachelor for that matter) until 2005.

Is the OP writing to us from 1821? Spinster? Society isn't set up like that anymore, except maybe in some third world patriarchal shitholes. How do you get through life in the 21st century? I'm picturing a shut-in. Are you on some sort of disability? Shouldn't you be checking in with your case worker instead of posting on Datalounge?

Has r66 read any of the responses on this thread??

R57 exactly.

My mother runs around all day at work after her useless colleagues, then shops for groceries, then comes home and tend to her ailing parent (with my help—I work, but also give elder care in the daytime), all while my long-unemployed father sits around watching sports or goes out shooting or reads the paper. The adult woman of the house handles all the cleaning, chores, cooking and care, and apparently this is normal and fair. I’ve mentioned the unbalanced workload to my mother before, but she won’t leave him. I can only assume it’s the dick (if she even gets that anymore...), or the fear of loneliness, or the stigma. This arrangement has has opened my eyes to the sickness of heteros, and the entitlement of straight men (truly off the scale).

R66 et al

While the word may or may not have been used much in America, can assure you in GB and some other English speaking countries spinster was still used well into 1980's and 1990's.

There's an episode of "Are You Being Served" where Mrs. Slocombe ,the stalwart head of Ladies' Intimate Apparel is replaced by the remarkable (and remarkably irritating) Miss Featherstone. Captain Peacock refers to Miss Featherstone as a "that vinegary little spinster...."

Miss Featherstone wasn't an old woman, in fact probably only in her thirties. But as she was unmarried (and naturally childless) at a time when most women still were married and seasoned campaigners far as children go, she was deemed past her sell by date and thus a "spinster".

Americans tended to use term 'old maid" rather than spinster, but it call meant same thing really

r69 believe it or not, my OP originally read "old maid" but I changed it because I thought "spinster" was more universally recognizable

R69 here

Clearing up comment about Miss Featherstone..

Should read: " Miss Featherstone wasn't an old woman, in fact probably only in her thirties. But as she was unmarried (and naturally childless) at a time when most women still were married and seasoned campaigners far as children go by time were in late twenties. Thus Miss Featherstone was deemed past her sell by date and thus a "spinster".

Couldn't understand words to "At the Ballet" from A Chorus Line when saw it while still young.

Daddy always thought that he married beneath him

That's what he said, that's what he said

When he proposed he informed my mother

He was probably her very last chance

And though she was twenty-two

Though she was twenty-two

Though she was twenty-two

She married him

Asked my mother why a woman of only twenty-two (which seemed young to me at least) felt she had to marry that guy. Mother's reply was simple "she didn't want to be an old maid".

A lot of hetero men want a combination maid, mommy, and whore. In return, they might contribute some money to the household, but often they don't even do that. Even today there are still women who will put up with all of that just to have a man. There are more and more women who won't, though.

That's why a lot of straight men deep-down hate modern women: They don't like having their socially-mandated fucktoy/housekeeper taken away from them.

It's not just maid/mommy/whore, though. Women today are also expected to work a full-time job and help support the household. It's a shit deal and I don't blame any woman who doesn't want any part of it.

R73, and not even a job - you’re supposed to have a successful CAREER.

No, OP.

"Is there still a stigma surrounding this group of people that I will refer to with a deeply stigmatized and archaic term that no one under 85 even uses anymore?"

When Dataloungers discuss heterosexual relationships they always sound like they're posting from 1932.

Just stop. Most of you don't even have working knowledge of a modern gay relationship.

Gay, relationship. Jumbo, shrimp. Educated, trumptard. 🤡

Spinsters? No.

Eldergays? Yes!

R10, so I guess spinsters like you are miserable hags who lash out at murder victims? Cool.

R48 the thing is, if you're a woman in a relationship with a man, there's no guarantee that he'll be there to hold your hand if you get sick. Men are more likely to leave their wives when the wife gets sick than women leave their husbands. That's one reason I never got married, it's such a crapshoot. And all this talk about women being seen as 'less than' if they don't have a man is pure patriarchal thinking, a reversal, as Mary Daly would say. It's men who need to marry women to be complete, not the other way around.

I think the stigma is definitely going away. I know several women at the office who have never been married, including a couple women with advanced degrees. They put everything aside for careers. Maybe some regret it now, but I know a couple who did not. My best friend is 59 and is sad she never found the right person or married, but she lived in farmland flyover country, which didn't help.

As for me, 51, not married, no kids. I like being an aunt, but kids were not in my picture. Had several long term relationships; but while I never cheated, I realized that I get bored easily. I've been an out bisexual since 14 years old. I live with a gold star gay and we've lived together for over a decade. Pre-pandemic, I had FWB for sex. I have great friends, most are single and childless. They're my travel buddies. Planning a trip to Australia and New Zealand with another single childless woman friend. All the relationships I need. I don't feel like I've missed out.

That's where the incel rage comes from. They feel entitled to have an attractive, submissive woman even if they are ugly, hateful losers. In previous days they probably could have had wives because women out of sheer desperation would have married them. That's not the case anymore, and they hate it.

There are some words that should not be spoken.

Very interesting thread and thoughtful responses, especially from the ladies. I admire women who do their own thing and rebuke patriarchy society.

I think women will rule the world, overtly, one day.

Children are hard to raise, and an auntie or female family friend can create a deep and close relationship with children, especially in the teen years when they want to be away from mom and dad.

Personally, I don't think it's a big deal to be a "spinster" if you work on maintaining close relationships.

There are many people who need your love and care whether you're a man or a woman. You could even choose to be a foster parent.

R48

There is a growing new movement within the LGBTQA+ and it is asexuality.

Young people are more into it, and less embarrassed about it. A lot of STEM and nerdy kids belong. They are interested in close, even passionate platonic relationships, they fall in love, but do not want to have physical sex

I've seen a number of articles about it including in the Guardian.

For the women I know who are Boomers and were teens in the 70's there are a few I knew who were very sexually active. The 70's and the 80's saw the sexual revolution in full swing in the straight and gay communities. These were career women, independent, I don't think anyone considers them spinsters because they did not get married or have kids.

She's probably having hot sex with men in their 20s. I am.

There is still some stigma, yes. Not as much as it was, but there is. And yet, are married people happier and fulfilled? Look at the MLM thread (OPs video), those are married mothers but al of them say they felt like they had friends and real relationships in their MLMs and that’s why they stayed. Lack of a real community, an inclusive community, is probably the real issue.

A few years ago, a straight co-worker said to me "... and if people don't get married, they get kinda weird as they get older. Uh, have you ever partnered up?". No, I haven't, I'm a confirmed bachelor in every sense.

So yes, there's still a bit of a stigma, particularly for women but there's some for me, at least among people who are on the culturally conservative side. It's diminished through my life, and I think it's going to diminish more, as declining wages means the middle classes are having a harder time affording a house and kids. Not that I ever gave a shit about stigma, I'm me and I need to be me.

In the future, single childless people might be lauded as this planet becomes more and more overcrowded. Maybe then we'll get the great tax breaks.

I didn't know people even use words like "spinster" and "old maid" anymore. I thought the world has progressed beyond those dumb stereotypes. I see absolutely nothing wrong with being single and childless. I don't know why anyone would think there was anything wrong with that.

r93 a word is a word.

And have you read this thread??

R93, the average DLer is over 60, closeted, and still lives within 20 miles of the small town where they were born.

Absolutely no one that I know uses the word "spinster" or "old maid" in seriousness or thinks that being childless and over 30 is a stigma. Only on DL...

Marriage is about money and property. Sales of jewelry made it most popular at the turn of the century.

Agree, R95. Many of them seem to still live with their mothers, too. They're basically living in areas and places that time forgot to inform to move on, socially and emotionally.

Posters like r95 and r97, who seem to think centuries -- nay, millennia -- of misogyny and societal suspicion about older, unmarried women (witch hunts, anyone?) don't have a lingering effect, are the true naïve participants in this discussion.

True R98. I’m a Millennial, and members of my family noticeably exclude or avoid me on the basis that I’m a loner with no partner or friends. It makes people nervous.

I don't feel a stigma. I'm 40, single and childfree. No one seems to care. My feeling is that people ultimately only give a shit about themselves. So while it might be a passing thought for them that I'm a weirdo, they probably immediately shift back to their own problems.

I grew up with an abusive father and never wanted to be trapped the way it was when I was a kid. That has always terrified me. Also - I just haven't met a man yet who I wanted to marry. And I never really wanted children - seems like a lot of work unless it's something you really want. But I'm still dating and trying. If I met the right person, I don't think I would have a problem sharing my life with him. If not - I'm happy with my freedom and friends and family. If that makes me a spinster - oh well?

Some of the comments here are harsh and misogynistic but most of them aren't and I appreciate that DLers. xo

I think everyone underestimates the pressure men also feel to get married, particularly in many professional environments. I've seen 'family men' get promotions over single men and women many times because 'they have a family'.

And the banter in business meetings about people's spouses and kids is off the charts. I have to listen to both men and women talk about their kids and spouses all the fucking time. Straight people do not leave their personal lives at home - they very much make it a fabric of their business lives.

I've been asked dozens of times by random people why I'm over 40 and never been married and don't have any kids. What went wrong? is a common question. The idea that I'm gay never fucking enters their heads. For some people, I see their heads cock to the side and they say - hmmmm....I'm going to figure you out. Like I have some big secret or something wrong with me. No - I'm not outing myself to you over this.

And for those gays and lesbians who are out, the straight people really do not want to hear about them and they get uncomfortable.

A lot of both straight men and women get married because they think they have to or need to - same thing with having kids. Sometimes it works out, but many times it is a lifetime of regret.

Pretty sure my swishy bisexual cousin married a woman—his overweight, trashy, nouveau-riche Frau work manager—because he hated his cube-job (where he could not get promoted til he started dating her), living in a tiny rundown inner-city bachelor flat, and being trapped in an office with married straight people so much. He weighed the options, and decided he’d rather be left alone as stay-home father living in a nice big house bought with wifey/FIL’s money, than keep having to live off crumbs with a boyfriend and answer to a judgemental world. It’s sad, but society boxes us into a corner and take food from our hands, even today.

The word 'spinster' is so outdated.

r101 - agreed. Constant chatter about children and whether you are married. I have had to see so many fraus holding up babies on zoom over this past year because other fraus demanded it.

I guess people don't know what else to talk about? Also they are nosy? It used to bother me A LOT more but now I just tune it out and really try to compartmentalize work from my actual life and friends. But yes. Straight married people with children at my job often don't know what to make of single women and/or gay men.

Interestingly, my friend who is straight and married but no children said that he finds in his (finance) job that his male coworkers are really weirded out that he doesn't have kids. They seemed very put off by him saying that he and his wife never wanted children and are fine with their 2 cats.

I guess anything that doesn't fit the mold still makes weak people uncomfortable.

R103 - well, spinster was a legal term for an unmarried woman in the 2000s. I know several female co-workers who had to sign legal contracts that they were a spinster when they purchased homes and for other legal matters.

I don't know if it has changed in the US - it changed in 2005 in the UK due to the Civil Partnership Act of 2005.

It could very well still be used in the US - I'm not a single woman, so I don't know.

R104 - well, at least they decided not to have kids and it's not an issue of fertility. (Who knows - maybe it was and that's just what they're saying.)

You know what else I've noticed? The straights don't want to hear about handicapped children. I've had several co-workers over the years talk about their child with disabilities and it's like someone farted in the room. Some are reluctant to talk about them and only discuss their able-bodied kids because there are more normal milestones - Little League games, shit like that.

Anything outside of a happy, 'normal', family life with a spouse and kids and things just go south.

yes r106 agreed fully.

R10 - my roommate is EXACTLY like you except I showed her DL. She had a fiancee who died in 2013 and a few long-term relationships that didn't work out. She's ok with being single without kids and is cool with most of her exes...says it takes two to make a relationship fail so no bitterness at men. Dated a lot pre-pandemic, had a few close friends with who she talks about books, history, world events, etc. Adores babies to death and they like her but says having kids and living in the suburbs is her idea of hell and wished for a life in Paris among writers. At 42, she was still dating and lively and guys who knew her pre-COVID still call. Yet women at work are HORRIBLE and that doesn't just mean middle aged fraus but also woke SJW's. A single woman who can take care of herself is a threat and bullies abound. Still less acceptable than being a gay man.

r108 - the way you just described your friend is really sweet - can tell you are a good friend.

"A lot of both straight men and women get married because they think they have to or need to - same thing with having kids"

I am forever grateful to be gay, as I miss almost all of the social pressure put on straights to marry, procreate, and bore the shit out of their co-workers with long monologues about kids' school sports!

But yeah, the straight co-workers and relatives are so totally wrapped up in the suburbs-and-kids shit that they hardly know what to say to someone who isn't part of that. That makes them feel uncool and unsophisticated, so the reaction formation tells them to keep asking the single people when they're signing up for the suburbs-and-kids shit. At least I work in a field that's fairly friendly to gays and singles, I think less than half the work force at my job has kids living at home and enrolled in school sports. Lucky me!

R110 - maybe I should start doing that - talking about going to concerts, restaurants, city events, etc. - all the stuff people stuck in the suburbs with kids don't get to do easily. That may shut them up a bit.

I didn't even know one of my bosses even had kids for several months after I started until he had to bring them into the office on a school holiday (super sweet kids, sat quietly and read in his office). I didn't know one of the coworkers I talk to all the time had 3 kids, not 2, until last week and we've worked together for over 2 years. I work for a huge company in Seattle though and the general vibe is nobody fucking cares about your personal life unless you're actually friends outside of work. One of our division heads is an out lesbian. There are a couple of gay employees. Nobody cares. Nobody asks who you're dating. People don't ask unless you bring it up. Its so refreshing. This is the first company I think I've ever worked at where nobody even asks about your personal life. They just care about you doing your job well and getting along with others. I hear from other friends that their firms are nosy frau-central, so I guess I lucked out.

R105 Did those legal contracts also contain words like 'negress'?

29/F, virgin, childless, unmarried and dateless. People glitch out when they realise I’m unpartnered and that I don’t really care either. I’m hoping they assume I’m a witch (really I’m a Pagan, but witches are more threatening).

Why would anyone bother marrying and having kids in this crumbling society anyway? Seems cruel to me. Only way I’d do it is if an extremely wealthy famous person wanted me to, and compensated me accordingly with a lifestyle to match. Times is hard out here!

Society stigmatises single women because it needs all the free labour wives & mothers provide. A woman who has an actual choice is going to realize what a sham deal she’s getting. (like my mother, who is currently caring for my end-stage cancer dad who’s treated her like dog shit for 54 years)

I have a female friend in her early 40s, she was married for a couple of years several years ago but is now divorced and has been single ever since. She says she would like to find love again, and she wanted to be a mum, but that is probably not on the cards now - apparently, whenever people find out she's single they give her the "what's wrong with you?" look, which must be hard.

That said, she doesn't help herself in my view - has impossibly narrow/high standards and expectations, and doesn't put herself out there or go on dates, so I don't know how she thinks she'll ever meet someone. I think she's given up tbh which seems crazy to me.

Old maids is what my mom calls them

There's always a thread on Data Lounger with with someone going apeshit because some male celebrity is 30 years old and not married (even if the average marriage age for men is 29.8.)

Yeah, yeah, all straight men are in truth gay in DL logic, but I don't understand the rush to marry off rich, successful bachelors who might be better advised to switch their vasectomy to the sperm OFF position and enjoy playing the field before playing the baby daddy support checks and divorce settlement game.

In the bleak landscape of my childhood, farms typically had a house roughly in the center, but the tell-tale sign of a fat spinster daughter with a precursor tiny house built somewhat in front and off to one side of the parents' place, a recognition that Big Deb was never getting married so she may as well have a place on the farm as in the evil clutches of a small town.

R104. Unmarried, 39 year old hetero woman here, and I will reiterate, the life of the hetero is a sick, sad world. I guess some of us never aspired to be two-dimensional thinking cubical office fraus in loveless marriages. Maybe some of us think that is weird. Tomato / toma-to.

The UK's most famous Spinster, mainly because she's a Cunt.

To me the negative connotations are because of sadness. If there isn't sadness involved then the woman wouldn't be considered a spinster or an old maid.

Here's me: my childhood was a mess. I always knew I wanted to be married and to have children, but thought I was too ugly and awkward so it wouldn't happen. Dating didn't come easy for me but I got my look together. I was in and out of my mother's house (lived there for a three year stretch in my mid twenties) and she made it miserable to date when I was there. This was in the mid 90's before cell phones were a thing.

So to get married and have kids, one would have to know some men and to be *asked* to get married. You don't just get married. Someone has to WANT to marry you. And then I would think well I could just go get pregnant, I know it happens to people, but at what age should I try to do that? What if you do that and then you meet Mr. Right, and he doesn't want to raise someone else's kid?

Amazingly, after a nervous breakdown at around 29, a nice guy my age actually fell for me. We have two kids and everything is good. I'm a terrible wife and a bad mom, but we both know that our lives would have been terrible without each other. Sometimes I have dreams in which I never had kids and I wake up and have to realize that my life actually turned out the way I wanted it to. And yes I'm nuts and do have health problems, and he is good about sticking by me.

I know this is long and boring but it's just to show that we all want different things. I *would* have been an old maid. It would have been sad. That's a spinster type. Someone who has chosen the single life is not a spinster.

Cheryl? ^

R120 - oh it is much worse where we are working in Eastern Europe. My roommate is 44 but pre-pandemic she, like all DL-ers, looked 26 (no kids, 5 days of exercise a week, super healthy eating and good genes). The women here, like the ones in many US suburbs, marry at 26. Sure, some couples fit but she was saying how she lost so many of her friends here when they got married. Educated, open-minded women conformed to some narrow-minded idiot's lifestyle and beliefs just to "be married". She was saying how she doesn't understand how these women are even attracted to...much less intimate with, these Repuke-style idiots. What's true is that she has been picky but then told me "how can I not be? I have to live with this person the rest of my life". I guess the notion of a spinster is outdated, though both Romanians and Americans (from more conservative backgrounds not all) from our company will say "you went for a weekend in Vienna ALONE?!!!!" And she will say "yeah, I went to a spa hotel alone and did what I wanted when I wanted to." Hell, when we went to Amsterdam during Pride week together, I hooked up with one waiter....meanwhile she sampled all kind of restaurants and beers with a BUNCH of bears from East Holland. She said one of the perks of going alone is you find your people...in this case, the ones for whom food is priority number one. 🤣

[quote]We don’t say “spinster” anymore, dear.

At the Datalounge they do because most of the people here learn about women from soaps and porn!

I wear my spinsterhood--male spinsterhood--with PRIDE. If you think there's anything wrong or funny about that, you can precisely go fuck yourself!!!!!

I think we need to change of the meaning of "one of nature's bachelors". It used to mean "gay", but it ought to describe gay or straight people who just don't have the common urge to couple up.

Some people want to be married and possibly breed, and if it doesn't happen it's a personal tragedy. But some of us just don't feel that way, there's no urge to couple up, no matter our sexuality or fondness for rumpy-pumpy, or even of children. The urge to partner up is separate from the urge to breed, some of us only have one, and some have neither. If we lived in a society where marriage and breeding were obligatory, then that's be a personal tragedy.

The only problem with being a Spinster is your job. The boss thinks because you don't have a hubby and kids at home that he dump overtime on you. And if it's a 24-hour business, that you'll work on Thanksgiving and Christmas. They treat Bachelors the same way.

R128, what year are you dialing in from? 1973?

I never heard a "ticking bio clock" and feel relieved to have gotten out of an abusive marriage at a young age with no children. The entire experience likely turned me off having kids and getting remarried. I do feel judged by several people, many of whom are family members who assume that I'm mentally defective as result of my long term single status. I've had other relationships after my marriage but none in the last 10 years.

However as I get older, I worry about who will help me out if I get sick or need help, or look after my cat if I die suddenly (I only have one but I guess that still makes me a cat lady). That scares me if I'm being honest and would be the only "regretful" aspect of spinsterhood.

I’m 54 and a spinster. I never wanted to marry. Not a lesbian. Just saw my mom’s life and decided that wasn’t for me. Yes sometimes I’m sad. But most of the time I’m content with my choices. I know others will judge me - that’s what people do - and it bothers occasionally. It’s hard being a woman whether you’re married or single. My choices bring good and the bad. I don’t worry about the future that’s a waste of energy. What will be will be and I will roll with the punches. We’re all trying to do the best for ourselves.

Yes because a lot of women today still use marriage for social status and social hierarchy.

Finding a man to marry you is easy so if you can’t do it, that’s pretty bad.

I have an Aunt who is a spinster who I would say has had a pretty good life and wouldn’t have been able to have the life she had if she had gotten married and had children.

NOBODY USES the word "spinster" or "old maid" anymore. Not in 40-50 years. Those above with the 'I'm a spinster' business (R130/R131) are most likely men posing as unmarried women.

"Old maids." "Spinsters." Who uses words like that now, except people who are old and stuck in a particular mindset? Women have progressed a lot since the days when it was considered pitiful not to married and have whelps. There's no shame in not going that route. Back in the old days all a woman COULD do was get married and have kids. Now the possibilities for women are endless.

R133 I’m a woman. I’m just embracing the word and owning it.

R133 Also it was used in the title of the thread so I used in my response. Of course it’s outdated.

If there is still a stigma, it’s in the smaller towns. The non-married women (and men) in larger cities are too busy having fun traveling, shopping, trying new restaurants (pre-COVID). I have seen attempts at spinster shaming and it’s always by a dumpy, unattractive woman with an equally dumpy unattractive husband. Bridget Jones called them “smug marrieds.”

R131 - I love what you wrote. Amen.

Seeing our mothers’ lives can be a powerful deterrent indeed…..

As stated above (way above), "spinster" means old female virgin. As in woman who was never "attractive enough" to interest any man. That's ANY man. Most of you know how absurd that is, as absurd and a "confirmed bachelor," though the word bachelor has no stigma attached.

Knowing the DL, I assumed OP is fucking around using the word spinster. However it is possible (I guess) that OP comes from a cow pasture in a Red State and doesn't know any better ;)

R128, 2020 at Verizon.

Awhile ago read that "maiden name" is not acceptable. What's the alternative?

^ REAL name

“Is it miss or missus?”

Not really. Once upon a time they were either ugly, frigid, or both. Now, they're just Lesbians.

Women who never give birth and who do not get fucked by men are miserable and pretty much worthless to society. And they know it. That's why lesbians are humorless.

R145 = Donald J Trump

R145, 70% of lesbians I know have kids. They had the kids via IVF with their wives. Where do you live...Texas?

A high school dropout trailer park mom with 5 kids from four different men is more valuable to society than a six-figure earning man-hating dyke with a PhD.

The lesbian-hating incel is back.

Most lesbians don't hate men, R148. It sounds like you ran across a few who didn't like you too much. I wonder why that is. I can guess. I'll bet that something about you creeps out straight and gay women. Hell, something about you creeps out gay men.

[quote]However as I get older, I worry about who will help me out if I get sick or need help

Anyone who has worked with the elderly will tell you that having kids is NO guarantee you will have someone to help you when you get old. I know people who work in nursing homes who say there are several residents that are never visited by their kids or grandkids even though they live in town.

Right. Getting married and having children doesn’t guarantee you won’t die alone or that they’ll take care of you.

There’s always someone who will take care of you.

"Women who never give birth and who do not get fucked by men are miserable and pretty much worthless to society. And they know it. That's why lesbians are humorless"

Lol, as if. Men have such an overrated sense if their importance and usefulness. Most married women are miserable.

When I first heard "spinster" as a kid I thought they were saying someone had a disease or was missing a major body part or something. "Aunt Harriet is a spinster" made me afraid to meet her, as if she would be wobbly. Later I finally learned what the term means.

R132 it might be easy for you to find lots of guys who want to marry you, but I never found that many.

"Most married women are miserable."

I wouldn't say that, some of them are perfectly happy with a thoughtless husband, ungrateful children, and the spending all the hours they aren't at work doing all the housework and attending children's sports events! I mean most of us would rather shoot ourselves, and a lot of fraus are of course living lives of chattering desperation, but... some actually seem to be kind of happy with it. They seem to see themselves as the center of a family that's worth the trouble.

To each their own. I mean if I were straight I'd have a vasectomy rather than getting sucked into the hellscape that is modern family life, but if a partner who didn't want kids had come along I wouldn't have minded. Well, I've never met Mr. Right and nobody's ever thought I was Mr. Right either, so oh well, relationships are ephemeral at the best of times.

R128 that’s my concern. I’m almost 30 and about to change career (to what, I’m not sure—just know that I need a new start), and I don’t want to end up in a field or a workplace where I got exploited for being single/unmarried/childless. I’ve watched my unpartnered lesbian aunt go through Hell at work just because bosses thought they could use her. Maybe I need to freelance to prevent the same happening to me? There’s no guidance for this kind of thing, and there should be.

R145 is writing from the 1800's. Two of the most successful and valuable people I know are unmarried, no kids and no partner. One is an ER doctor and my roommate gets published all the time and makes tons of money for our firm. Both looked 26 at 40, dated, both volunteer, and are far more worldly and, at least pre-pandemic, happier than most married women at work. The downside? Hate from married women at work. Why? They see that these women have nice things (keep salary for themselves), can afford to travel a lot more, have time for the gym, cooking, have time after work for fun stuff like concerts and dating, can spend weekends at spas, shopping and relaxing.

I used to be quite sad that I would never have children but the older I get the more I see people's lives being ruined, rather than enhanced, by their children. My friend has three children and two are autistic. She could convince herself that they were sort of special angels when they were little but now it's obvious that they will not be able to do practically anything without help. My brother's daughter is a hard-core junkie and now they find themselves lumbered with her two small children who were taken off her in court. Others have kids that can't hold down a job because of anxiety/depression or just game all day. And these are kids in their 20s/30s so it's not as if they are going to turn it around anytime soon.

Another friend married a woman in his late 30s and she really put the pressure on them to have a child. He relented and now they have a severely handicapped girl that requires ongoing, expensive medical treatment. He told me that he has considered suicide many times. I talk him out of it as much as possible but I secretly think I would think the same way if it were me.

R155, I find that lots of married women envy single women, I know because they've told me. The married life you describe and how those women "seem," is not be as simple as you think.

R156, unless you work in an extremely small company or dentist office or something, your manager is not going to know your personal status unless you tell him/her. If you're in a lowly job, there's always overtime pay. If you are the one who gets called on while others with families do not, that's an issue to bring up with HR. Lesson - don't work for very small companies.

The married with kids life is like a MLM scam. When some people get caught up in it, and they feel trapped and miserable, they try to convince everyone else--and themselves--that it's great. Then they pressure their friends to have kids, too. After said friends have kids, the first parents no longer have to watch their friends enjoy more free time and money, they have another parent to commiserate with, and they have another parent to trade babysitting nights with.

I’m 56, engaged twice, but never married with no kids. I used to have older men (never women) ask me why I never married. I’ve never had anyone ask me why I don’t have kids. However my friends all try to set me up with people, and I’m not interested- I love my life- I work in film, and live a life of an itinerant carnie (that’s the film community in a nutshell)-my job has taken me all over the world.

I’ve always been a loner (I fucking’ LOVED the lockdown), and at this point, okay with dying alone. My Chinese Dragon mother thinks I’m a failure because I haven’t married well or had a kid (like my little half-sister). She had told me recently, when we were discussing kids, that the purpose of having them was to have someone take care of you when you’re old, which just cemented my views that a lot of people have children for their own future, which is incredibly narcissistic. Both my half-brother and I went through hellacious childhoods with our parents (a lot of mental illness, drug/alcohol//mental/physical abuse and several divorces), and we’ve concluded independently not to have children.

My gay husband, thrice divorced (I’m always divorcing him for being so inappropriate :P) told me, “Men can sense you don’t need them, so they’re not attracted to you)”. Age appropriate men don’t want to date their own age, they want to date younger post-divorce/death, and I’ve had my fill of younger men (too much partying), so I’ll just be a “sporty cool (surf/yoga/etc)” spinster cat lady.

[quote] unless you work in an extremely small company or dentist office or something, your manager is not going to know your personal status unless you tell him/her.

The thing is, though, people make assumptions. If there’s no ring on your finger, no partner photo albums on your social media, no dates in your calendar/invites from your inbox to couples’ events, and you don’t bring plus ones anywhere? Then you get stigma, gossip, criticism, and an unfair workload. And the insidious thing is that it’s so subtle, so if you report it to HR there’s rarely concrete proof that it’s happening—you just get the old gaslamp, “well, that sounds paranoid. If you aren’t coping with the expectations here...”

They’re likely not repressed lesbians but asexual

R161, your post is too complex for this forum, it'll go over most of their heads. Plus there's nothing to make fun of, you know, the way ninth graders do.

R157 their colleague are not jealous because they are not married/in couple, they are jealous of their free time because they have no kids. Once they have kids, they barely have the time to go to pee without having requests from their kids.

R162, where the hell do you work? What state? What you describe is more 1975 than 2021.

You must let yourself be treated like that. There's plenty of inside the company help, there's even looking for another job within the company with a reasonable manager.

I'm a male who's now entering his CRONE years and owning it!!!!

R157, some of that is true, but many married women do not like being tied down to a husband. Being DEFINED as part of a legal couple. Being free is not just being free of lumpy Harold drinking beer in his underwear, it's being free to do 'single things' with friends or by YOURSELF without him tagging along.

^ This was meant for R165, not 157. There's a lot more to it besides kids, R165.

All of you who are used by employers should visit the reddit group "childfree". People there celebrate the childfree life and share strategies for how to avoid being used at work and how to resist pressure from family and peers to spawn. The group is populated by people of all ages, genders, and sexualities. It does skew younger, though, and the new generation realizes they have more life choices and they don't have to follow the "life script" of the 1950s. Most of them are straight, and straight people, especially women, have so much more pressure to have kids.

I live in a very liberal small city right outside DC, and I've never felt that societal pressure to merge and breed. At every place I've worked, there have always been a number of other childfree women, some single, and no one treated them differently. Here, when I meet someone new, the first questions they ask me are "What do you do for a living?". Sometimes the second question is "Do you have any pets?" People don't care so much about my family status, or maybe they just are too polite to be pry.

But if I go 35 miles south, my hometown is still a slightly rural suburb. The first question is always "Are you married?" followed by "Do you have kids?" These people are breeders. And they want to convince everyone else to breed. I reunited with a friend, and when I visited her, her mom and sister were present. They reminded me I could still have a kid as a lesbian. I told them it was getting a bit late for that. They said no, a friend of theirs had a kid at 46. They they told me I could adopt. I said I was happy with my life as is. They couldn't understand that. I was shocked that these Republican bible thumpers were so pushy in trying to convince a lesbian to have kids.

I think you people know weird married people. Some of us are just doing our thing, not trying to pressure anyone else. Some of us enjoy being married and having someone to talk to. We argue like crazy too. We both wanted kids and were lucky to have two healthy, fairly normal kids. We think of them the way we think of or cats, kind of. In that they didn't ask to be born (or adopted or grabbed out of a parking lot in the cases of the cats), so they are our responsibility. Now they are teens so we will have to start making them do some chores or something. We're not like you think we are.

To the person in the thread who seems to only know people with problem children: that stinks. That is a worry, for sure. I'm sure some people avoid having kids because of those fears. I am terrified of autism. A lot of people abort children who have super serious illnesses that can be diagnosed before birth. I don't really have judgement either way. But that's going to be part of the problem with the Texas anti-abortion law. There will be many more children around that can't care for themselves. Drug addict children is always a fear. My kids are fairly straight laced so far, except my son is developing a dependency on benadryl. I know that's not harmless. As for 30 something age kids who sit in the house, I'm sure a lot of people here have gone through that phase.

One thing having kids (and being heavily medicated) has done for me is to make me *slightly* less terrified of death. Not because I think they will be there taking care of me (I haven't really thought about that), but because some genetic part of me might continue for a while.

I'm not pushing these views, I'm just trying to explain a large portion of society to everyone here.

[quote] some genetic part of me might continue for a while.

R171 within three generations, your specific blood/DNA markers will be gone from the pool. Sorry about it.

Thank you r164. I find it best to be self-deprecating-keeps you grounded. I’ll also add that I’m the legendary, “ Look 10 years younger” meme- everyone asks me what my secret is, and I’ll tell them, “Never have kids unless you’re under 23”. People laugh, but then I’ll say, “You’re literally using your life force to make another person”, and then they look thoughtful.

I knew a short bodybuilder type in finance at a medium sized company. No family photos on desk, no guy talk about women, and he refused to be set up by co-workers with dates. I figured he was gay, no one else did. He was also an asshole. Whatever, but this guy hopped, skipped and jumped up the ladder. This was just outside of NYC, but his personal life or lack of had no effect on his career. As far as work load, I assume he had a job with deadlines and got them done. None of this extra work because he's single bullshit. No whining about the pathetic guy with no social life. Now that he's a VP, there shouldn't be much work at all.

r170, for a much less toxic alternative to childfree on reddit, check out r/truechildfree.

I allow my gay spinster status to be known. I rat my hair up on both sides and hat pin my bun in the back. My granny glasses are perched at the tip of my nose. I wear the most masculine of lace collars and accentuate my silhouette with a less than fashionable bustle.

Whoever up thread mentioned working at a company in Seattle, I concur that in the Northwest US in general, people don't pry into your personal business at work or in private much either, even in the rural and suburban parts. I'm single with no kids and have never been questioned about it in more than a general "do you have kids" kind of way.

I have never been expected to do more at work because of it. On the contrary, I saw coworkers get chewed out for taking too much time off to attend to their kids. In this area it is expected that people do their job regardless of personal circumstances. A strong work ethic is highly prized, kids or no kids.

I believe it's due to the Scandinavian immigrant influence on this particular area of the country.

That's nice, R177. Glad you live in a place where that's the norm - i.e., ppl minding their own damn business about your status (married, single, etc.) and not getting penalized for being single.

I think married women with kids tsk tsk about other women not being the same.

Unmarried woman live longer than married women whereas married men live longer than single men.

I live/work between rural and suburban England & Wales, and here there is still a lingering unspoken stigma about unwed childless women older than about 28. You can sense the judgement and suspicion even if it isn’t vocalised. There again, that has a lot to do with remnants of British classism more specifically.

WHAT kind of job do you people have where you get "extra work" because you're single? Are you warehouse workers? Administrative assistants? Carnival clowns? Personally, I've never heard of people "sharing" jobs or job duties unless it data entry if that's still a job.

A long, long time ago, I worked in restaurants. People did try to pull rank via their "family obligations." The last place I worked did a lottery (which day you'd have off) of the holiday season (Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, NYE, New Year's Day) to make it fair.

The extra work stuff, I don't know. If it's paid extra work, I don't see the problem. Seems like single and married people alike might want to earn some extra money.

"There again, that has a lot to do with remnants of British classism more specifically."

R180, can you elaborate on that? What the hell does class prejudice have with social pressure to marry and breed?

Yes, some places people think something is wrong with you. You must be bad, untrustworthy, have some kind of mental illness, or be a drunk or drug addict. If you had anything good about you, somebody would have married you by now, but you’re not married, so you must be some kind of psycho.

I have been really pushed by older coworkers and family about “WHY aren’t you married?” I don’t know, Myrtle, but go ahead and assume I’m little Regan from The Exorcist, all grown up, if it means you’ll leave me alone.

Then there’s other women, who decide if you’re single, you must be just drooling to get in their husbands’ pants. There’s no other reason to even be single. That makes me avoid events that are mostly couples. The people that are all judgy are married. Divorced people are always saying you’re lucky.

[quote] Society stigmatises single women because it needs all the free labour wives & mothers provide.

Exactly. My cousin became disabled after her second baby and now her husband to take care of the kids on his own and is licking all the female relatives' butts, in hopes they will do the dirty work for him. Before they had kids, he talked to us all like we were garbage. I guess he thinks we forgot all the shit he said. If he wants to be Superdad, he can do the work.

A society run by men has set up everything to benefit and provide advantage to men. Women are brainwashed and browbeaten from the day they are born that to provide free labor to men is what they should aspire to. Non-compliant women are ostracized, belittled, shamed and envied.

I mostly think that men are too stupid to be evil but have come to realize that you don’t need to be smart to be a sociopath. It’s disturbing that so many women buy into this shit.

[quote]Then there’s other women, who decide if you’re single, you must be just drooling to get in their husbands’ pants

Not to mention the fugly husbands who think you must be sex starved and hit on you when their wife turns her back.

[quote] Women who never give birth and who do not get fucked by men are miserable and pretty much worthless to society. And they know it. That's why lesbians are humorless.

And what exactly do you think you represent to society? Gay men who try to make enemies out of lesbians are doing themselves no favors.

I have a married woman friend (we met during undergraduate college). She has children and always seems to be cleaning their bedrooms. I don't remember my mom ever cleaning our bedrooms as kids. Doing a quick vacuum on the floor would be the extent of it.

Over the years, this friend and I have drifted apart. She works full-time and I do see the amount of unpaid work she does in her household, plus all the driving around, picking up and dropping off.

Her husband spends a lot of money. To pay for things, they take out home equity loans. (Her parents gave her an expensive piece of land; she and husband built on the land.)

R189, I knew a woman who did that. Her husband got cancer and died and she had almost no equity. She had to have her grown daughter and her husband move in with her to save the house. And there’s still loan payments.