What was wrong with Betty Hutton?

Who?

Her manic, antic comedy shtick grew old fast. A laff riot during the war years, but after 1945, audiences had moved on. If Martyr Saint Judy hadn't crashed and burned by 1950, Hutton would never have gotten hired for ANNIE.

That said, THE MIRACLE OF MORGAN'S CREEK (44) is one fucked-up work of genius. Nowhere to go but down from that.

R1 I feel like saying that about 75% of the posts om DL.

She was a boozer, and a loser.

Did she use that dynel monstrosity to scour her pans before she put it on her head?

You can credit her popularity to lowered standards during war time ("Hello, Abbott & Costello!") but some of her most successful films like Annie Get Your Gun, The Greatest Show on Earth, The Perils of Pauline and Dream Girl were all done years after the Armistice.

She turned down the leading role in a cute musical: -"It Happened in the Bullpen: The Story of a Woman" - and it was downhill after that.

I thought that she was fired by her studio for her diva-like antics and her insistence that her husband direct or produce her film projects?

My opinion, she had severe mental health issues (Bipolarism, Severe Depression) stemming from her hellish childhood. (Mom was a drunk.) You can watch her in interviews late in life and tell there's some sort of chemical imbalance. She was always "ON!"to the point of exhaustion but would then dip into tears & sadness in a split second. And then back to shouting, dancing & singing a minute later!

She also seemed to place the men in her life over her children, Her big breakdown in the early 60s was reportedly because her last husband musician Pete Candoli left her for Edie Adams.

[quote]Her manic, antic comedy shtick grew old fast. A laff riot during the war years, but after 1945, audiences had moved on.

That's not quite true, R2. Betty continued to be a box office draw and went on to have several hit movies after 1945. (1947's "The Perils Of Pauline" being a personal favorite.) Her film career didn't go down the drain until the Early 50s when (as R8 pointed out) she became even more difficult than usual and insisted her husband direct her films.

It took me a while to figure out she's not the same person as heiress Barbara Hutton.

[quote] If Martyr Saint Judy hadn't crashed and burned by 1950, Hutton would never have gotten hired for ANNIE.

Betty was widely regarded as having more talent than Judy Garland. So I don't understand your comment.

A couple of years before dying she did a great interview with Robert Osborne on TCM. Clearly, she was a hot mess. She ended up working as a housekeeper to some priest back East and couldn't really explain what happened to her career other than to blame others and thank "the Good Lord" for saving her.

In Dorothy Lamour's memoirs ("My Side Of The Road") she writes that "a certain temperamental blonde actress who was also a Paramount star" asked her for advice on how she could become as popular as her with costars & film crews.

At the time I read it I couldn't tell if Miss Lamour was referring to Veronica Lake (another temperamental Blonde Paramount star) or Betty. Looking back, I'm almost positive she was referring to Betty because Veronica Lake had been dead for years by the time Miss Lamour's memoirs were published in 1980.

[quote]Betty was widely regarded as having more talent than Judy Garland.

By whom, R12? Tell us. And cite credible sources.

I thought Neely was based on Judy?

She still had a viable first rate film career when she married a man determined to manage her career. Together, they made a lot of big demands with the studios who then washed their corporate hands of the two of them. End of problem.

She was probably nearing the end of her viability at the time that Hollywood turned its back on her.. Tastes change, but Betty Hutton never did.

Betty's last big movie - and it was a big one - was The Greatest Show On Earth with an all star cast and it was a huge success. When she insisted that the studios hire her husband to be a director/producer/whatever and they flat-out refused, she got mad and quit movies which was a big mistake because she was so popular. She then turned to doing singing tours like Judy Garland.

All I know is that she is a TON of fun in her war time movies.

[quote]r12 Betty was widely regarded as having more talent than Judy Garland. So I don't understand your comment.

I can't believe THAT. I'm not a raving fan boy, but Garlad seemingly had everything (except for emotional stability.) (And sobriety.) She could sing, dance, act in comedy or drama... and, as presented by the very skilled departments of MGM, was conventionally attractive, with beautiful legs.

Betty Hutton lacked that versitility.

R18 Betty in The Greatest Show On Earth with Cornel Wilde and Charlton Heston.

Betty probably had a better work ethic than Judy, but talent-wise, she didn't come close.

Even Edgar J. Hoover came for a visit to the set of The Greatest Show On Earth. He seems to have taking a liking to hunky Cornel Wilde.

The interview with Osborne was fascinating. She said that at Paramount it was assumed she was the mistress of the studio head since she was his protege. Therefore everyone hated her there. Osbourne was implying that she was difficult. A very raw interview.

Neely was based primarily on Judy -- although the bit about Helen Lawson getting Neely dismissed from her show was based on an incident between Ethel Merman and Betty.

Betty shared Judy's problems with mental health and substance abuse. However, Betty was disliked by her co-workers while Judy was beloved by most.

Betty had talent and was quite appealing.

Was she considered a beauty at her time? Because good God!

Not a beauty, maybe, but cute as pie.

r26 She did have talent, wow.

Poor Betty had a decent figure but couldn't pull off pinups/cheesecake to save her life. She was always mugging with her mouth open.

r7 You're absolutely right, Mr. Sheldrake. If she'd only have consented to appear in It Happened in the Bullpen: The Story of a Woman, it would have cemented both her career as well as yours. Without Hutton, Paramount just wouldn't commit to the film. Instead, sadly, you'll only be remembered as the man who turned down Gone With the Wind.

Miss Hutton fared a lot better in glamour sittings in gowns & furs than "sexy cheesecake" shoots. She has some gorgeous photos out there!

r30/32 Your links aren't working.

I'm sorry R33. They are on my end.

More Betty Hutton Glamour. Hopefully the link will work.

I thought she was clutching Tori Spelling at OP’s pic.

r35 Links are working now.

She was pretty enough, not every actress needs to look like Elizabeth or Marilyn.

Yes, R37. She was cute & attractive in a very Average American sort of way.

Here's a gorgeous glamour shot in color.

This is a cute, now racist number.

1983 PBS special. Her voice is shot, but you can't help but admire the determination.

I recall reading that a lot of "Judy supporting" insiders on 1949's AGYG set at MGM resented her coming in and taking over the role when Judy was fired from the film (e.g., the producers who bought the property for Garland, the crews, etc.) Yes, Judy could be a mess, but reportedly she also always found a way with her magnetism and humor still at that time to keep those working with her from hating her. And those Metro folks acted "highbrow" and thought that Betty was an inferior talent replacement for Judy in the film. Betty must've been under indescribable pressure--who wouldn't have jumped at the chance when asked to replace Judy in such an important musical at the biggest studio of the era, MGM, but then she found that everyone disliked her for just accepting the role and being there.

"The Betty Hutton Show"

She did come across as overly exuberant at times. Did she sniff some cocaine before joining Perry Como in this performance?

Betty Hutton was talented but Bombastic as though the ON button was pushed all the time. Tiresome and draining after awhile.

She looks like she has a big hairy stinky pussy in OP’s photos.

Bette Midler is this generation's Betty Hutton. I think her movie For the Boys was even based on Betty's life.

Did she ever complete her transition into Harpo Marx?

Judy never dared to share the same stage as Hutton because she knew Betty would blow her away.

Hutton wasn't a great beauty, but she was blonde, had a good figure and a fun personality, and if a guy took her out she'd probably dance and dance until she got really hammered then she'd want to fuck. What straight man wouldn't go for a gal like that!

She's actually good in "The Greatest Show on Earth", her last big film before things went to hell for her. She's likeable, cute, fun, athletic enough to do some trapeze work herself, and is in her loud pushy "on" mode when appropriate. She's no great actress, but she's appealing, and hits the big melodramatic moments right. Anyway, I wonder if there was an element of ADHD to her issues, people with ADHD can have that kind of energy and intensity, although of course most don't know how to focus it.

R48, being threatened with an explosive was a reasonable reason for Judy to avoid the company of Miss Hutton (not of THE Huttons).

[quote]Bette Midler is this generation's Betty Hutton. I think her movie For the Boys was even based on Betty's life.

Uh, nope. It's loosely based on Martha Raye, a much better singer than Hutton, imo.

To the earlier posters, Judy Garland knew she was doomed doing AGYG with her least favorite director Busby Berkeley, then Howard Keel broke his leg and the entire production would be filming Judy until he was well enough to return. Even when Chuck Walters took over Judy admitted to him she was exhausted and did not think she had it left in her to continue in this way and even refused a day's pay when she actually was on set but knew nothing was usable.

She knew she was being replaced and I don't think had animosity toward Betty Hutton. She had seen the writing on the wall for weeks.

Betty's sister, Marion Hutton, was also a singer and actress.

Yes R52. She's most famous for being Glenn Miller's most popular female vocalist.

Did Marion get along with Betty? I know that Betty's daughters were estranged from her.

Your stats are a little off,. OP. She was big star mostly in the 40's and washed up by the mid-50's. Also, she was older than Judy Garland.

I can't help but see Catherine O'Hara when I watch the Perry Como clip.

[quote]Did Marion get along with Betty? I know that Betty's daughters were estranged from her.

R54, from what I remember Betty & Marian were estranged as well and pretty much hated each other's guts. I can't remember the exact details but Marian's husband was involved somehow. I'll research further to refresh myself.

At one point in the mid 50s through early 60's they reconciled and would occasionally perform together in clubs & on television. But it didn't last.

Quite a few of those paramount women of the 40s seem to have had tragic lives, Veronica lake, Betty Hutton, Helen Walker, Gail Russell, Frances farmer, Diana lynn (died young)

Before her Paramount contract & while her sister Marian was gaining popularity with Glenn Miller, Betty's biggest claim to fame on a National level was her stint as "girl singer" with famous pianist & orchestra leader Vincent Lopez. And Mr. Lopez didn't just use Betty as a singer. She was utilized as a comedienne and was actually part of his act.

The Greatest Show on Earth is universally considered the worst film ever to win the Best Picture Oscar but it's nonetheless often camp fun. The scenes inside The Big Top (the circus tent) actually have historical importance for showing in glorious Hollywood Technicolor what circus performances were like just before Ringling Bros. permanently abandoned the tent and moved to indoor arenas.

Most film historians think that Oscar for Best Picture was intended to be sort of a career award for the aging Producer/Director Cecil B, DeMille. It tuned out to be unnecessary since just a few years later DL's own favorite campfest The Ten Commandments legitimately won both Best Picture and Best Director for him.

As mentioned above, Neely O'Hara was based on a combination of Hutton and Garland. In 1940, Hutton, before going to Hollywood, was the second female lead to Ethel in a hit Cole Porter musical, Panama Hattie. She had two solos and a duet and was bringing down the house with all of them, Allegedly Merman went to the producers and told them that if one of Hutton's numbers wasn't cut she would walk. Hutton's best number was cut. That's just Broadway legend, I don't know if anyone has ever confirmed it.

As for AGYG, production was shut down at least twice before restarting with Hutton. I've never heard of Keel breaking his leg. The first shut down was because Frank Morgan, who had played The Wizard of Oz and had been cast as Buffalo Bill, died just after shooting the number "Col. Buffalo Bill." The part had to be recast and the number reshot. When shooting resumed, Charles Walters, director of Easter Parade, replaced Busby Berkeley because of Judy's issues with Berkeley. The second shutdown happened because of Judy's personal issues holding up production. George Sidney was at the helm when shooting began once more with Hutton.

Another favorite of mine from the musical shorts that Betty made in the late 30s, during her time with the Vincent Lopez Orchestra. Here's '(Obviously) The Gentleman Prefers To Dance' with dancer Hal Leroy. Betty's lamenting the fact that her beau would rather dance than romance her. I think we all know why.......

For my fellow Movie Buff Nerds, Ann Miller also performed this song a few years later in one of her pre-MGM, "B", Wartime Musicals.

R57 Thanks!

[quote] As mentioned above, Neely O'Hara was based on a combination of Hutton and Garland. In 1940, Hutton, before going to Hollywood, was the second female lead to Ethel in a hit Cole Porter musical, Panama Hattie. She had two solos and a duet and was bringing down the house with all of them, Allegedly Merman went to the producers and told them that if one of Hutton's numbers wasn't cut she would walk. Hutton's best number was cut. That's just Broadway legend, I don't know if anyone has ever confirmed it.

R60, Betty swore that's how it went down for the rest of her life. She wasn't shy about telling it and NEVER altered her story one bit.

She discusses it with Mike Douglas at some point during this interview. (This is only Part 1. The whole interview is split up in 3 parts on YouTube. I can't remember where Panama Hattie" is discussed but the whole segment is worthwhile.)

Mike tries to defend Ethel Merman when Betty tells the story. Miss Merman must have been a personal friend of his.

Hutton had all the signs of someone with plenty of mental health issues, maybe bipolar disorder and addiction stemming from it. Some of those issues actually help performers look better especially on screen. The camera captures all those tiny nuances on their face and makes them fascinating to watch. Hutton is the perfect example of that, as is Judy.

MGM couldn't accept the fact that Judy was a one-picture-a-year performer by the late 40s. Give her more than that, and she'd break down. When Annie Get Your Gun wasn't ready to start filming in 1949, they rushed her into another film--In the Good Old Summertime. They should have given her a nice long vacation to be sure she was fit and rested for AGYG, a much bigger picture than ItGOS, but Judy was one of MGM's most reliable moneymakers, and they didn't want her offscreen for any length of time.

By the time she was finished with ItGOS, Judy was exhausted and needed a break. Instead, they rushed her into Annie with taskmaster Berkeley, whom she detested. She melted down and was fired from AGYG. Even though she would make one more film for MGM, Summer Stock, the AGYG firing was really the beginning of the end for her at Metro.

[quote]The Ten Commandments legitimately won both Best Picture and Best Director for him.

Nope. "Around the World in 80 Days" won Best Picture that year though "The Ten Commandments" was nominated. George Stevens won Best Director for "Giant" and DeMille wasn't nominated.

[quote]Betty was widely regarded as having more talent than Judy Garland.

In a pig's eye.

I stand corrected, r66.

Post WWII Betty Hutton was still on top. Replacing Judy Garland in "Annie Get Your Gun (1950) which was a smash hit. Same year she also starred in "Let's Dance" with Fred Astaire even managing to get top billing.

By 1952 things started to go down hill for Betty Hutton. That flame up with Paramount over getting her husband Charles O'Curran to direct next film was just start of bad things to come.

Betty Hutton really hit the skids in late 1960's. Her mother died in a tragic house fire, and piled on her fourth marriage was on the rocks. An addiction to pills and booze, bankruptcy, loss of voice all followed.

Probably like so many other actors and actresses who came up through the studio system, the demise of that Hollywood era left many drifting. More so the older ones.

And she was no Betty Grable or Lauren Hutton for all I care.

[quote] ... replaced Busby Berkeley because of Judy's issues with Berkeley. The second shutdown happened because of Judy's personal issues holding up production.

So they replaced the director just for Judy and she STILL fucked up the production?

I don't understand why MGM couldn't use Betty Garrett or June Allyson to replace Judy on Annie. They were both in-house and could sing the part. June was certainly as big box office as Judy though I recently read that her vocals on Good News on the ballads were sweetened. Betty did a cowgirl number in Words and Music. Virginia O'Brien was maybe another contender though she had been dropped by MGM.

She was cute when young, but aged horribly.

Neely O'Hara WAS based on Judy Garland, R16. So OP is trolling, and pulling their information out of their ass.

With a strong director who could ratchet down her frenetic performance, Hutton would have been just right for Annie Oakley. The director didn't get the job done. What he ended up with is the standard Betty Hutton crap fest. A man in the area hosts these orgies about four times a month. 2 weeknights. 2 Saturdays. $20 contribution at the door. It pays for the hotel room, lube, bottled water, and hand towels. It's a mix of horn dogs and pigs, like myself, and married men who are supposed to be playing golf or at Home Depot. There are some who attend regularly, but also always some new faces/dicks/holes/hairy chests.

As orgies go, it's pretty tame. No dungeon. No sling. No Saint Andrews cross. Just a king sized bed and 15 to 20 guys sucking and fucking. There is a gay bath house in Troy, the only one for at least 125 miles in any direction. Adequate, but not as deluxe as you might find in a gay vacation destination like Palm Springs. But it has been closed during the pandemic. I'm hoping it opens soon. The hotel orgies are not bad, but... I would rather get the bath house open again.

The problem with Betty Hutton was never that you didn't get enough from her. The problem is that you get WAAAAAAY too much.

[quote]The Greatest Show on Earth is universally considered the worst film ever to win the Best Picture Oscar

No, darling, that's Cavalcade. Not that many think GSoE was a deserving winner, mind you.

WTF, R76?! Did you accidently combine two posts?

Judy was completely miscast in AGYG. She was all wrong for the part. No wonder it didn't work out.

I'm still trying to decipher the connection between Betty Hutton and gay bathhouses as described at R76. Was Betty Hutton the Bette Midler of her day?

Betty cuts loose...

r14, in regard to the quote from Dorothy Lamour's bio, I can't imagine Veronica Lake would have cared 2 cents about winning over her costars and crew. That quote obviously refers to Betty Hutton was desperately needed to be loved.

As to the photo of J Edgar Hoover on the set of The Greatest Show on Earth at r23, wasn't he rumored to be "dating" Dorothy Lamour, who is seen clutching him here, despite his obvious eyes for Cornel Wilde?

3 of the biggest stars of the 1940s were Betty Grable, Bette Davis and Betty Hutton. But the name long-ago fell out of favor with baby girls.

[quote]3 of the biggest stars of the 1940s were Betty Grable, Bette Davis and Betty Hutton. But the name long-ago fell out of favor with baby girls.

Betty Hutton and Betty Grable were both named Elizabeth at birth. Bette Davis's real name was Ruth Elizabeth Davis.

Her daughter looks like Debralee Scott.

R76 Do they play Betty Hutton's greatest hits at that pig orgy?

Judy Garland would have been ALL wrong for Annie Oakley in "Annie Get Your Gun". Annie is supposed to be an open and confident young person, not only did Garland look far too mature, her nervous vulnerability was all wrong for the role. Annie Oakley knew damn well she could survive living on the edge of starvation and kill anything that moved, while Garland was always a bit frightened of something.

Hutton would have been perfect if the director had been able to rein her in, as DeMille did in "Greatest Show on Earth". But then, who knows whether Hutton would listen to any director who wasn't in DeMille's league by that point.

Hutton was still hilariously funny, yet reined in somewhat to great effect, by Preston Sturges in "The Mirace of Morgan's Creek". She had great energy, which was why she nicknamed "The Blonde Bombshell" back in the day. Amazing after starring in "Greatest Show on Earth" in 1952 just a few years later she had a big tv spectacular that was apparently a huge flop. I'm kind of surprised no other studio (and MGM had a big hit with AGYG) seemed to want her. Supposedly the whole cast include Howard Keel (in his first role) gave her a hard time. Why would debutante Keel give big-box office star Hutton a hard time?

The key word you used, r88, was *supposedly*.

[quote]Why would debutante Keel give big-box office star Hutton a hard time?

Maybe because she was a pain in the ass.

She was actually coming to the film's rescue though, but perhaps she acted like she was too much.

It's just that when "everyone" is giving a co-worker a hard time, it makes one wonder whether it might be at least partially deserved.

R46, I thought For the Boys was based on Martha Raye, who toured with Bob Hope.

MGM did seriously consider Betty Garrett to replace Judy but in the end she wasn't considered a big enough name to carry what had already become a highly expensive film with almost no usable footage to show for it. Hutton was huge at the time and when Paramount agreed to loan her out, that was that.

Judy and Betty both liked the sling, Betty more than Judy of course, but Judy was really into lemonade if you get my cruder meaning.

[quote]Virginia O'Brien was maybe another contender though she had been dropped by MGM.

Seriously? Virginia O'Brien was, to quote Rose in "Gypsy," "this year's novelty act." Her deadpan singing could be amusing as a single spot in a musical, but she was hardly someone who would be asked to headline a big-budget movie musical.

I always found Garrett a bit underwhelming.

[quote]or June Allyson to replace Judy on Annie.

Dressed in cashmire sweaters and pearls?

[quote]Seriously? Virginia O'Brien was, to quote Rose in "Gypsy," "this year's novelty act." Her deadpan singing could be amusing as a single spot in a musical, but she was hardly someone who would be asked to headline a big-budget movie musical.

I met O'Brien's first daughter a couple of years back. The one who required Virginia to leave The Harvey Girls.

A healthy and happy Judy could have done a fresh take on Annie Oakley: A little more vulnerability and a lot less bombast. If MGM had let her rest instead of shoving her into In the Good Old Summertime, and if they'd given her Chuck Walters from the beginning instead of Busby Berkeley, they might have had a great picture on their hands.

Betty Garrett also looked to mature to play Annie Oakley, who is supposed to be in her mid-teens when the story opens. She was also a good solid performer, but she lacked the It Factor it takes to make a star - she was always fun but never sexy or charismatic.

There's a possibility that June Allyson, she looked and acted a bit boyish, which totally would have worked for the role. But she was really a terrible, bland, one-dimensional actress for most of her career, in order for her to make the most of the role she'd have needed a director who pull a better, deeper, more human performance out of her than she was accustomed to giving. I doubt the alcoholic Busby Berkeley would have been that director.

Debbie Reynolds would have been an adorable Annie Oakley. She was the right age, too. But she wasn't well known enough at the time.

It's true, Reynolds had the youth, the ability to lead a musical, the self-confidence, and the touch of butchness it would have taken to be a great Annie Oakley!

Pity they didn't put off making the film for a few years.

An online source tell us that the Hutton sisters had a less than normal upbringing, which made them perfect targets for manipulation by the studio machine.

The sisters' father abandoned the family when they were both young; he later committed suicide. Their mother worked a variety of jobs to support the family until she became a successful bootlegger.

In a classic case of physician attempt to heal thyself, Marion opened a rehab center after she retired from performing.

Betty’s main challenge was that she lived too long and had to deal with the consequences of her addictions. Marion died at 67. Betty lived to be 86.

The studio would only have had to wait a little while for Debbie to become the star who could headline AGYG. Her first big picture (Two Weeks with Love) was in 1950, and she really broke through with Singin' in the Rain in 1952 when she was 20.

AGYG is still a pretty good movie but it was effortlessly topped by its first imitator, Calamity Jane, in 1953 with the incomparable Doris Day.

Reynolds played Annie in the 60s or 70s in a stage production directed by Gower Champion. She and the show received great reviews when it played a west coast tour intended as a pre-Broadway tryout but somehow the financing fell apart and the show never reached New York.

Dolores Gray as Annie. She starred in the London production.

The LACLO AGYG was in the late 70s, after Reynolds did Irene. It did indeed get great reviews and was a huge hit for the LACLO. I think Lucie Arnaz did the same show on the East Coast.

When AGYG was revived, a lot of people thought Reba should have been succeeded by Leann Rimes because she would have been so perfect.

Debbie lip-synched to a Betty Hutton recording of "I'm Just a Square in a Social Circle" to win the Miss Burbank contest in 1948. A talent scout saw her and she was signed to her first movie contract.

I wonder why Nanette Fabray wasn't cast as Annie? She was a better fit than Judy or June.

Fabray was charming, but wasn't she really quite too feminine to be Annie at the beginning?

I'm sure that dullard Shirley Jones wanted the part, but thankfully she didn't get it.

I agree r112, plus I seriously doubt Fabray was a big enough name to be considered when the was in production in 1949.

[quote]I wonder why Nanette Fabray wasn't cast as Annie? She was a better fit than Judy or June.

Yes, she had a major role in "The Bandwagon," but Nanette Fabray was a star on stage, not in movies. Her movie credits are pretty slim. She did work continually in television, though.

^ the film was in prodduction

Karen Valentine was first noticed (and won the talent award) when she lip-synced to Eydie's Blame it on the Bossa Nova on the Miss Teenage America Pageant. Ed Sullivan phoned during the ceremonies and invited her to appear on his iconic variety show the following week. A talented lip-syncer, she!

Salome

[quote]I'm sure that dullard Shirley Jones wanted the part, but thankfully she didn't get it.

Only if she was delusional. Shirley Jones was a complete unknown when MGM needed a replacement for Garland in "Annie Get Your Gun." She made her professional debut in a small part in the Broadway production of "South Pacific" in 1953.

SPEAK UP, GUYS, NANETTE CAN'T HEAR YOU!

Well since this thread is veering off course into Virginia O'Brien territory...

Hollywood seemed not to know what to do with Ms. O'Brien. After MGM dropped her out of the blue no one else picked her up, so it was back to stage and other media.

"The Band Wagon" wasn't until 1953. Nanette was a Broadway star at that point in "Love Life", the first concept musical, unrecorded because of a recording strike at the time, and unlucky to the present day, with its revival at Encores in NY canceled because of the pandemic. In any event, Nanette didn't have much of a film career, despite being quite a lovely and winning presence in "The Band Wagon". But by 1954-55 the studio system was unravelling anyway. Jane Powell was starring in the big hit "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers' and a few years later mostly on tv and stage. Same thing happened to most other musical and contract stars at the studios.

Keely Smith stole her schtick.

The MGM cast and others were partly annoyed with her because she went after the role as soon as Judy was let go, maybe even before. It was considered crass and insensitive. Also one of the chorus women said she was crude, and said Betty once commented about Judy having been cast in the role, "She was too fuckin' dainty."

Actually June Allyson would have been fine for the type (I think she understudied Hutton in Panama Hattie on stage and went on for her for a week, once). But the part had a lot of songs and he was only a fair singer. MGM paid a huge amount for the rights, as a vehicle for their biggest musical star. I don't think they wanted to then put a lesser musical star in such a big vehicle.

Surely not Betty Garrett. She was not much of a singer, either, and never played a lead in an MGM musical. At least June was big box office, but there's a difference between AGYG starring Judy Garland, and starring June Allyson. Betty Hutton was Paramount's big femamle musical star, and it just made sense. Apparently Doris Day was also considered, and Betty Grable wanted to do it. So did Ginger Rogers.

By the way, with Judy on the way out, MGM tried to get Hutton from Paramount, but couldn't.

Virginia O'Brien was coached and encouraged to perform in the deadpan style after apparently singing well, but having her face frozen in stage fright at an audition. She actually had a good voice, but showing no emotion was a dead end for the most part. There's one of those all-star wartime musicals where she performs and number and someone calls her "The Sphinx" or points out she never smiles, whereupon she smiles one of the loveliest smiles imaginable. She should have protested those other roles after a few of them. Big stars showed emotion, or at least some personality.

Betty Garrett had a pretty big voice, as she understudied and went on for Merman in "Something for the Boys" and had a big hit in "Call Me Mister" on Broadway.

Gawd, I've seen vampires in films show more emotion....

I never understood Hutton’s appeal. I guess I’m not the only one since even old movie buffs have barely heard of her. There was nothing she did that couldn’t have been done by other stars.

Again, that was her shtick.

Oh, Betty Hutton was extremely popular and like a bundle of energy. She was known for her manic comic numbers, but also could sing a ballad very well. "Perils of Pauline" is one of her most entertaining films. But her style of over-the-top comedy wasn't everyone's cup of tea, but during the 1940s and into the early 50s she was hugely popular.

Ballad Betty

Nanette Fabray wanted to do it, but her nose talked her out of it.

What the fuck do you mean “based on Ethel Merman?” That broad couldn’t carry my dirty laundry. Ernest Borgnine? [vomit]

Perky Mitzi Gaynor was absolutely perfect for Annie. She should have been cast on the spot when Judy pulled out.

Annie Get Your Gun was a big hit for MGM, so I guess they were happy they chose Betty.

[quote]r71 And she was no Betty Grable or Lauren Hutton for all I care.

Agreed.

Doris Day came along and filled the same niche.

Why would anyone need Betty Hutton, when Doris Day could lead musicals, look blondely attractive without being beautiful, be perky and energetic and slightly butch, and not be a complete pain in the ass on the set? Because yeah, Day's career took off around the time Hutton's faded.

If someone doesn't know who Betty Hutton is no way are they an old movie buff. Morgan's Creek to this day is one of the most astonishing American films ever made. You still wonder how Sturges got away with it and got a major beloved hit out of it to boot in the middle of WW ll while taking everything Americans hold sacred to this day and tearing them to shreds.

No idea who she was, but the photo does tell me she was crazy as a shithouse rat.

[quote]So they replaced the director just for Judy and she STILL fucked up the production?

No, that's not it. Berkeley's footage was disliked by the execs at MGM who found it dull and stagey with the actors coming on and leaving the scenes as if in a stage show. He had no feel for the material and intended it to be mainly a dance musical. MGM didn't pay $200,000 for the rights to a smash Irving Berlin score to have it turned into a dance show, so he was replaced by Chuck Walters.

It wasn't that Judy missed so many days of the preproduction, pre-recording the score, or filming, it was more that even when she was there she couldn't deliver. This was a terrifying first for her.

Producer Sheldrake: “Of course, we’re always looking for a ‘Betty Hutton.’ Do you see it as a ‘Betty Hutton’?”

Screenwriter Joe Gillis: “Frankly, no.”

They should have just put Doris Day in "Annie Get Your Gun." Vanilla and beige with no edges would have been better than cray-cray bug-eyed exhaustiveness.

Lucy would have been divine and her voice would have been dubbed!

I watched "Calamity Jane" again because of this thread, and I never ceased to be amazed by how incredibly fucking GAY it is! Female couple with a complex relationship (and a smidge of straightwashing), cross-dressing men and women, underlying theme of disguise and hiding feelings, supporting character of a femme male actor, etc. It was obviously intentional, too, someone wanted to make a thinly disguised lez musical romance.

So yes, IMHO Doris Day would have been a good Annie Oakley, she was never great but she was always good, and she could butch it up like a champ. And she was leading films in 1950, I guess she didn't work for the right studio. I wonder if there was any talk of borrowing her for the movie?

Doris did do an "AGYG" album with Robert Goulet.

I don't think the songs suit her voice, r144, but it might just be the arrangement.

Warner Bros wanted Doris Day to for Annie Get Your Gun (and she wanted to play it), but Warner Bros. was outbid by MGM for the movie rights. And they weren't about to then let Day go to MGM for the role after that.

Howard Keel was in both AGYG and Calamity Jane, and he later wrote: “In hindsight, after working with Doris Day, I thought Doris would have been a much better Annie than Betty Hutton.”

Regarding the comments that Betty Hutton was difficult to work with, I was told that she was so hopped up in her Paramount heyday that the crews used to refer to her sound stage as "The Pneumonia Set," because she insisted on keeping the temperature cold.

Nevertheless, Paramount tailored vehicles expressly for her limited but entertaining talents, and she had great songwriters like Frank Loesser creating hit songs for her. Her pictures were big moneymakers and Paramount had every incentive to keep the cash coming in. As was noted above, her manic roughhouse style fell out of favor after the war. More importantly, after producer Buddy DeSylva left the studio, the quality of her pictures dropped, and she made a few clunkers that lost money (The Stork Club, Dream Girl). But she was still riding high in 1952 with TGSOE. Her last Paramount film, Somebody Loves Me, wasn't very good, but still managed to gross more than $2 million.

Betty entirely failed to see the threat the studios were under, from the divestment of theater chains and the growth of television. When she walked out on her contract after the studio refused her demand that her new husband, choreographer Charles O'Curran, be made a director, she was signing the death warrant on her career. She bumbled and bumped along for another decade or so, but by the mid-60s no one wanted to work with her.

She replaced Carol Burnett on Broadway in Fade Out, Fade In, for a short time in 1964. A neighbor of mine who was a dancer in the show said she was a nightmare on stage and off.

It's very sad, because I don't think she was a bad person or a mean one - she just had mental health issues that were never addressed properly. Dropping out of the business and working in a rectory was perhaps the best therapy she could have gotten, and she did regain a measure of nostalgic interest in her later years. But even her few TV appearances in those years showed her nervous insecurity. She was guilty about her failure as a parent, which was never reconciled, and apparently none of her daughters attended her funeral.

R148 gives a great post that pretty much nails things.

Virtually all actors and actresses who came up through the studio system were blindsided when set a drift after that system vanished. Some did better than others, but still you had Hollywood greats like Bette Davis suddenly without a steady paycheck if you will.

Many of those who did survive embraced (or at least tried darn hard) the new medium, television. Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz tried to give Betty Hutton a break, but it just didn't work. If of course didn't help that like Davis, Crawford and many other actresses Hutton was past her sell by date far as Hollywood films were concerned.

Bette Davis, Joan Crawford and some others managed to find work in vehicles that worked for them given their age, Hutton was just too much of a hot mess that no one bothered.

Judy Garland, who was in no shape to be making a movie anyway, was totally wrong for the role of the brash, in your face, gun toting Annie Oakley character. I guess the theory was that she would be perfect for the role because she was a great singer but that character was one what she never could have done justice to. Judy Garland's screen persona was wistful, vulnerable; I think the sight of her screaming in the face of her leading man and shooting off guns would have really turned moviegoers off. That was not a role meant for Judy Garland. What little film exists of her performance shows she was really terrible as Annie Oakley and looks very unwell. She was doing a western flavored musical and she had a phobia of both guns and horses. Test photos of her in the costumes she would have worn in the film show a grim, pale, ill looking Judy with thinning hair (it was actually falling out). Poor thing, she was too sick and drug addicted to be playing a demanding part in brash musical film.

As for Betty Hutton she seemed just right for it. I heard her career tanked because she was "difficult" and demanded that her husband direct/produce her movies. She always struck me as being as mentally disturbed as Judy Garland. Both had severe mental problems although I never heard Hutton was a drunk/drug addict like Garland was.

A friend did Gypsy with her in stock and refused to talk about it in detail. She just said it was the most horrible experience of her life and that Betty was a very sick woman. My friend left the business after that.

Alice Ghostley replaced Dorothy Loudon on Broadway in Annie (the other Annie). Hutton replaced Ghostley for two weeks in 1980 when Ghostley took vacation. But the real star in this clip is Gary Beach as Rooster.

The clip is from a full boot of the show. If you search youtube, it's easy to find a 36 minute excerpt from the same boot.

Go, Gary, go!

I think the Busby directed version of I'm an Indian Too is much better than what George Sidney and dance director Robert Alton did. Or maybe Berkeley had Alton too but i like the Indian dancers much better in the first version.

Someone else that was reportedly considered for Annie was Judy Canova. I'm not sure if she was contracted to any studio at the time but she could certainly sing and her love-starved Ozark bumpkin persona could have made her Annie Oakley funnier than Hutton is.

What do you think of this choreography, r153? Here's four minutes of silent but clear color footage of Ethel in the original production in 1946. Love me some half naked Indian. Thanks, Josh Logan. You never disappointed.

[quote] Her last Paramount film, Somebody Loves Me, wasn't very good, but still managed to gross more than $2 million.

That film is on YouTube. It's a bio of Blossom Seeley. The "best" scene, apropos to the comments on this thread, starts at the 1:17:00 mark. That's where Hutton teaches the male lead to sing, as she says, "with style" .... meaning with all kinds of antics (i.e., like Betty Hutton).

Anyone that had seen Ethel Merman in the original Broadway company of AGYG could not have possibly imagined that Betty Hutton would be too brash.

Then again, Merman's urban persona was so far from the character of the teenaged country hick and sharpshooter, I suppose any casting for the film could have been conceivable.

One of MGM's biggest musical stars of the late 1940s was Esther Williams. Did they ever consider making Annie Oakley a star of the Aquacade?

Virginia and Skip E. ...

Blossom Seeley

R150, I was fascinated to watch Judy's numbers when she was filming AGYG. She did a number with a group of children, where she just seemed like the sweetest thing. But then the number stopped, and she was just as cold as could be to the kids.

Somebody clever should really post some of those AGYG Judy outtakes here.

What's WRONG with Muriel Puce?!

Hutton was a drunk and had either NPD or BPD. Her kids had nothing to do with her after they were grown.

For R162:

Doin’ What Comes Natur’lly

Like Judy, Betty got to dance with Fred.

Inn 1947, Paramount agreed to led Betty to Warners for ROMANCE ON THE HIGH SEAS and June Styne and Sammy Cahn wrote the score with several Hutton-esque numbers: "I'm In Love" and "Put 'Em In a Box, Tie 'Em with a Ribbon, Throw 'em in the Deep Blue Sea". "But Betty got pregnant and had to drop out. Who to replace her with? Supposedly Warners tried to borrow Garland and was turned down by MGM. Both director Michael Curtiz and Jule Styne take credit for remembering Les Browns cute band singer Doris Day, who was cast in her first feature film (She had made several 'soundies' during 1941-42 war years which show her sprightly personality so well, its surprising she wasn't chased by a Hollywood studio then) .

Doris Day owed her movie career to Betty Hutton.

Betty had to WORK to get that dance R166, whereas Judy could do much more as a dancer (and a singer and an actress). That dance Betty does doesn't even have a double turn in it and the dress is doing a lot.

I'm a BH fan of her best work, but I don't care for her in ANNIE at all. She did all the things the role of Annie Oakley requires well, at some point...but in other performances, in other movies. She should be much better in a film as important as AGYG. But at that point, the production was so fraught and over budget the orders were to get it done. Hutton did all her prerecording in two days, and Sidney clearly chose to just point and shoot a lot of the time, often with the camera just nailed to the ground panning side to side. Betty Hutton reported to the studio September 26, Annie closed production December 16, 1949 after 46 days of shooting, four and a half days ahead of schedule (for the Hutton version). So all done in under 3 months.

All Sidney's other MGM musicals seem to have more care taken with the direction. Later, he would do some terrible musicals like BYE BYE BIRDIE and the overlong HALF A SIXPENCE. Oddly, he had gotten through HARVEY GIRLS with Judy; maybe she could have made it through Annie had it been Sidney's picture all along. There's no doubt in my mind she would have eventually gotten there if Charles Walters had been the first director, and she'd had a little rest. Walters certainly wouldn't have pushed Keel's horse to the point where an accident happened.

One of her unofficial nicknames was Benzedrine Betty. That explains a lot.

She says in the Osborne interview that she and Judy got to be friends (yet again, we see how other performers absolutely loved Judy and thought of her as a friend) late at night when they both were doing shows in Vegas in the 50s after the studio system had begun to really crumble.

Timing is everything: at the moment Betty walked out on her contract, the studios still had enough power to ruin a career. They made an example of Betty. That walkout, plus her being difficult to work with, plus her last film being a flop, plus her talent showing signs of wear from her personal life, plus getting older... well, it's no wonder it came crashing down. But good God, what a crash. 1950, Annie Get Your Gun, top billing in the #3 movie at the box office that year, and the top movie with a female-driven story. 1952, Greatest Show on Earth, again top billing, in the #1 film at the box office AND the Best Picture winner, Somebody Loves Me the same year, and boom...suddenly she flops big time on tv in '54 with Satins and Spurs, her tv series flops a little later. The descent was rapid.

What chills me in that Osborne interview is when he asks an innocuous question like "when did you first start to sing?" Hutton's answer is something like "My first memory is realizing that when I started to sing [at her mom's illegal speakeasy] it would make the men stop beating her." Betty's memoir shows that you shouldn't take her word as gospel, but if that story has even a grain of truth in it, it's no wonder she grew up damaged and needy.

Here's Judy Canova and soldiers in drag.

I never saw "Satins and Spurs"; what was wrong with it that it was considered such a flop? Was it a bad score, choreography, was Betty having a bad night? Was it done live?

I think by the time of AGYG Judy's position at MGM was strongly threatened by June Allyson's ascension. June had had a big hit with Arthur Freed on Good News while Judy had been reduced to working with Joe Pasternak on In The Good Old Summertime. Allyson had done a lot of films for Pasternak who was seen as the lesser producer of musicals at MGM but now she was moving up. And although Judy had had a hit with Easter Parade, her lateness and absences on The Pirate, plus her firing from The Barkleys of Broadway prefigured her trouble on AGYG. June had her complaints like not wanting to do The Three Musketeers and the choice of Charles Walters as first time director on Good News but she was finally compliant and reliable. June maintained a life long friendship with Judy but they both agreed that Judy was the superior performer. But you have to wonder if that friendship would have lasted if June had done Annie. Sources are mixed about whether Judy actually wanted to play Annie.

What I remember from the Robert Osborne interview is Betty's fright wig and her being very spitty. She kept wiping her mouth and then at one point she wanted to kiss him on the mouth to thank him for a compliment.

Betty was a professional victim all her life. A very irritating and annoying human.

Virginia throws some shade at Jane Powell in R159's link. Go to around 11:30.

Thank you for that, r169! I like Canova -SIS HOPKINS (1941) is one of the best musicals of that year. But with the young Susan Hayward playing a rich bitch co-ed a great Styne-Loesser score how could it not be?

Because her pregnancy caused her to drop out of ROMANCE ON THE HIGH SEAS, it makes me wonder if that had some impact on her feelings about motherhood - if she somehow unconsciously resented the child for the lost opportunity of a big hit picture. It sounds very crass to say it, but she was really not fit to have children.

Thats a very astute observation, r176. I can only imagine Betty's feelings about Doris Day.

Lots of thoughtful responses here. Good thread.

There was something almost willfully perverse, even sadistic for Freed to assign Berkeley to AGYG. He knew Judy loathed Berkeley from BABES IN ARMS onward and knew Judy was especially emotionally fragile at the time. Garland and Berkeley together again? What could POSSIBLY go wrong?!

They could have cast Vera-Ellen as The Gun.

Every so often I try to find out WHY the studio went with Busby Berkeley in the first place, because he seems like such a poor choice for AGYG no matter how you look at it, but there's really nothing to explain it. In fact, he was in the midst of a bunch of court dates for various drunken infractions, in debt to the IRS, not exactly a studio favorite anymore because he was so much trouble, and Judy at first refused to work with him on the film.

There's an old Betty Grable bio from years ago that off-handedly mentioned Berkeley pitched a fit about something minor and the studio let him go again, and of course the stagy look of the movie as others have already mentioned. Berkeley was responsible for Keel's leg getting broken and I wonder if they also blamed him for Frank Morgan dropping dead after filming a musical number.

It just doesn't make sense to keep him on after he breaks Keel's leg and after Garland said she didn't want to work with him. You have to wonder why they stuck with him for so long.

Miss Crawford would have been perfect for the role. But MGM let her go.

I believe Judy was slotted into ItGOS because the original lead June Allyson got pregnant.

The shoot was a smooth and happy affair as Juy was delighted to work with her pal Van Johnson and liked getting to work with Buster Keaton as well. The film wrapped under budget and 4-5 days early. Pasternak told Freed they worked at making Judy feel valued and supported and the less challenging nature of the charming script suited everyone.

It's not considered a big achievement, but over time and many viewings I think it can be considered one of Judy's best films, it's delightful and very funny.

No June got pregnant on Royal Wedding.

You guys are both right. She was pregnant twice.

ItGOS stands for In the Good Old Summertime?

Really, people, you aren't texting here.

People abbreviate the titles of movies all the time, it's not text speak. What a weird thing to say.

The 1950s saw Betty Hutton fade, while Doris Day emerged as the top musical/comedy star. At the same time, Joan Crawford was fading and Lana Turner became her replacement.

But Betty Hutton was a Paramount and Doris Day ascended at Warner Brothers.

I want to see Jake from State Farm doing "Wacky for Khaki."

If you look at the casting from a dollars and sense perspective rather than a human perspective, the Garland/Berkeley pairing makes sense. They'd made hit films together in the past, so why not put them together again on MGM's biggest film of the year?

Of course, anyone with heart, brains, or sense would have seen that the pairing was a disaster in the making. But if MGM had treated Judy like a person instead of a property, her career there would have been very different.

Judy wasn't really suited for Annie. They should have given her time off after ItGOS, and then waited for Minnelli to be ready to film Showboat. She was supposed to star in that, but she and MGM had parted ways by the time filming got underway.

Universal at least treated their top star Deanna Durbin well, although she didn't like playing variations on her Little-Miss-Fixit-Who-Sings after a while. She was suspended a few times for nixing some scripts, but at least her studio when she was working didn't drug her up or overwork her. They realized pretty much the incredible talent what they had. Plus Deanna had a supportive family who made sure she invested her money well. Amazingly talented Judy unfortunately did not have many people around her who treated her in a way to nurture her; in fact, they started her on her way to addictions and bad mental states.

Here's a little Betty Hutton tidbit. Sometime in the late-80's when Betty was living at the rectory in Massachusetts (I think), she was befriended by a professor of mine at Emerson College (Boston) who wanted to help her out. He pulled some strings and she was hired to teach a musical theater class, a turn of events that made the local papers. This was during a semester I took off to work, so unfortunately I didn't get to meet her. I'm not sure exactly what happened by it didn't work out they way he'd hoped and she didn't join the faculty beyond the one-off class. She was probably too far gone.

Judy and Deanna were in competition to be MGM's teenage girl singer. Deanna lost and went to Universal, where she had multiple hits and was treated well. Judy was the winner and we all know how that worked out. In the long run, Judy might have been better off losing that contest.

Even though Universal was a smaller studio at the time, Deanna was its top star, and her importance to the studio meant they treated her as she was something special, which her producers and directors acknowledged that she was. MGM was a much bigger studio with many more stars when Judy came along like Garbo, McDonald, Gable, etc. and she was an impressionable young kid basically who wasn't an instant star like Deanna and not as important to the studio, certainly not until the "Wizard of Oz". Had Deanna been the chose one at MGM, hopefully her family would have looked out for her, unlike Judy's mother and others around her. As it turned out, Deanna lived almost twice as long as Judy. But Deanna totally abandoned the business at 28 , living with her 3rd husband in France, and most reports said quite happily. If only Judy had been as happy and performing, which she really did love for the most part!

Judge for yourself, r170...

I'm thinking Judy may have had the same issues whether she was a star or not. Didn't her two sisters have similar problems? One committed suicide?

This really doesn't need to turn into a Deanna Durbin thread.

Nor has it, r198.

Usually when Judy or Judy-related threads turn into Deanna Durbin threads, the poster carries on about what a vastly superior talent Deanna was.

Just contrasting how some stars were treated better than others. Hutton was probably treated pretty well at Paramount when DeSylva was there. Not sure if they were lovers or if he was just a huge supporter of her talent.

I love both Judy and Deanna frankly. The reason they're discussed together is that they famously started out together and their paths turned out so differently.

Does anyone know what caused the final estrangement between her and her three daughters? It's stunning that none of them attended their mother's funeral.

Also, the youngest daughter (the one pictured in OP's picture) -- does anyone know what kind of relationship she had with Betty? She was born in 1961. Betty was living at the rectory during most of that daughter's childhood. Did they have any type of visits or contact at all? (I'm assuming that daughter was being raised by her father.)

And completely different singers, r201. I'd only be willing to compare their vocal talents once I heard Deanna do The Man That Got Away and Judy's version of Nessun dorma.

[quote]Here's a little Betty Hutton tidbit. Sometime in the late-80's when Betty was living at the rectory in Massachusetts (I think),

It was in Rhode Island.

Deanna actually was able to do popular, jazzy kinds of songs as well as the legit stuff (like Jane Powell later did). In her film "Something in the Wind" Deanna does "You Wanna Keep Your Baby Lookin' Right" and "The Turntable Song" quite well. Some opera singers, perhaps mostly notably, Eileen Farrell, could do that. Judy had a great voice, but not the classical training. Deanna's voice teacher had been in the original Met Opera premiere of Pucccini's "Fanciulla del West (Girl of the Golden West)") so Deanna's vocal technique had a fairly close link to Puccini. Judy had a powerful voice, and had she wanted to, possibly could have trained as an operatic mezzo or contralto. Stylistically though, both were generally very different as by their usual vocal repertoire.

Judy and her 2 sisters had very unstable childhoods due to their father's inability to keep it in his pants around the local teenage boys and their mother's grinding ambition for them to be stars. Her sister Suzie, who committed suicide, was infertile and had just been left by her husband for a much younger woman. She also had a drinking problem just as Judy did.

The only Garland sister to live somewhat contentedly was Virginia "Jimmy" Gumm, who got out of show business fairly early on, married a man who worked for the post office, and moved to Dallas. In her autobiography, Lorna talked about meeting her Aunt Jimmy and seeing the happy, normal woman her mother might have been had she been allowed to live a normal life.

Even Jimmy didn't make old bones though, dying of a heart attack at age 60. Not a long-lived family.

Judy could have classically trained for decades, r205, and she still wouldn't have an operatic voice.

Deanna Durbin doing "Begin the Beguine".... Not a very jazzy arrangement...

Tidbit; Deanna Durbin was highest paid female actress in 1947...

Deanna Durbin doing "Because", which for the ages was one of the most popular songs sung at weddings....

Clip from 'Every Sunday" with very young Judy Garland and Deanna Durbin doing that famous duet number. Quite frankly as singers and performers IMHO the two were like night and day. DB seemed always to be doing "virginal" or classical singing which more suited that wonderful instrument.

I can see why MGM wanted Judy, though. She's all pop and sparkle in that clip. Too bad MGM did its best to monetize the pop and sparkle while, behind the scenes, doing everything possible to burn it out.

For the record Deanna Durbin grew to become a very attractive (sexy if you will) young woman. She left Hollywood (and eventually United States) after getting tired of doing nothing but "nice girl" roles. Studio did throw a few bones casting DB in roles that were in opposite direction, but audiences didn't receive those films warmly so that was that.

Deanna Durbin detested the Hollywood studio system and that also played a part in her getting fed up and leaving. Once that event occurred Deanna Durbin was "done". She was offered all sorts of roles including in West End production of "Kiss Me Kate", and subsequent Hollywood film, but the lady's response was always a firm "non".

Barbra supposedly never took a voice lesson. I think the Hugo Wolf song on "Classical Barbra" was pretty good if I recall, but the rest of it is quite wrong stylistically, and she just hasn't got the correct technique. Judy never seemed to look much into the classical music direction anyway. Deanna already had that area covered, and MGM didn't need her to attempt training her for it. Deanna got language lessons, piano lessons (she accompanies herself very well in all her numbers in "It Started With Eve"), etc. at Universal, while Judy got plenty of dance training, deportment, etc. at MGM.

R76 Betty was a dirty sling pig.

MET opera in NYC wanted Deanna Durbin inviting her to audition. She turned them down feeling her voice wasn't ready and needed further training. The MET put famous Spanish bass Andrés de Segurola (who was now working at Universal as a vocal coach) on paid detail to keep an eye, if you will, on DB in hopes she could be subsequently lured.

R211 Actually, there's a famous mess-up. L.B. Mayer said to get rid of the fat one, meaning Garland and someone fired Durbin instead. It worked out for them career-wise, but not for Judy in her personal life. Deanna had a close family, hard-working folks from England by way of Canada, with her sister who had even paid for Deanna's voice lessons before she was discovered. So had she been at MGM, I don't think they'd have gotten away with the shit they put Judy through.

By that pic above, a lot was wrong with her, crazy eyes for one.

Who is DB you keep mentioning? Isn't it DD?

Judy isn't even fat in that clip. She has a totally normal body for a 14-year-old.

R218

Yes, of course it's DD, for give me, allergy meds have clouded my head....

Carry on...

I have a feeling that Betty's final marriage, to musician Pete Candoli, was due to her getting pregnant, R202. There was a LIFE magazine cover story circa 1971, of the "where are they now?" variety, and one of the former stars they featured was Betty Hutton. Her marriage was over by then, and she mentioned having to take care of her youngest daughter in the article, but she also said something that stayed with me, about wishing she could stop being so unhappy. That sounds like major depression, and at that point in her life, she had pretty much reached the end of the road in terms of career. I have no idea what she did for a living between that time and when she ended up in the rectory.

Judy and Betty had less than stable families growing up which affected their mental states in later years unfortunately. At least Betty was treat well by her studio, though once someone was a huge star, they worked them pretty relentlessly. But Betty was an adult when she became a star and ostensibly more able to stick up for herself, unlike Judy.

"I'm thinking Judy may have had the same issues whether she was a star or not. Didn't her two sisters have similar problems? One committed suicide?"

Well, mental illness is yet another field where the nature-vs-nurture debate has been raging for decades with no resolution. In Judy's case, there may have been an underlying genetic propensity to mental illness, but she was also put on heavy-duty amphetamines and other dangerous drugs while her brain was still developing so who knows what kind of mess she had between her ears by he 21st birthday.

Of course, if she'd failed as a child actor and left Hollywood in her teens, Judy still would have a crazy stage mother, whatever genes she was born with, real-life stressors of poverty and family dysfunction, a propensity for marrying gays, and the same access to drugs as anyone. She probably would have had some kind of mental problems no matter what she ended up doing.

R199, come on, it's a Deanna Durbin thread now and you're part of the reason why. Don't get snippy with me about it, just own it.

Dolores Gray said that Arthur Freed wanted her to replace Judy in the movie of "Annie Get Your Gun" but Gray was still leading the London company of the show and the producer, Emil Littler, wouldn't let Gray out of her contract. It might not seem believable (Gray was a second female lead on screen) but MGM signed Gray with the idea of making her a leading lady. She was supposed to do a movie opposite Fred Astaire called "The French Quarter."

I agree to a point r222, but Betty was put on stages by the time she was 9, when her mom yanked her out of school after seeing her perform so well at a school play. She may not have been in Hollywood as a child, but she was definitely performing.

I didn't know MGM didn't have Hutton at the New York premiere of Annie Get Your Gun. That is stone cold.

[quote]Actually, there's a famous mess-up. L.B. Mayer said to get rid of the fat one, meaning Garland and someone fired Durbin instead.

I've never found this story even remotely believable. Like Mayer's hands would have been tied because some underling misunderstood his instructions?

Hal Prince tried to claim that he mistakenly hired Madeline Kahn when he really wanted Bernadette Peters.

R223

Judy Garland came into this world with cards stacked against her..... If her mother and father had their way she wouldn't have been born at all (they wanted to terminate the pregnancy), and it seemingly was downhill from about time Judy was a toddler or child on....

Like so many mothers then (and still now to some extent), Ethel Milne Gumm saw her children as meal ticket out of poverty, a bad marriage and all sorts of other ills. If this meant pimping their daughters (or sons) out to anyone from Hollywood studio suits to vaudeville theater owners or whoever, then so be it.

What Judy Garland endured as a child and teen actor in Hollywood amounted to abuse and today someone would be brought up on charges.

Hutton is very good here. It's mercifully not all foghorn.

The Deanna/Judy competition has been described in different ways in multiple autobios of Judy. In one, Mayer said to keep both girls, then went off to Europe on a trip. While he was gone, Deanna's contract option was accidentally not picked up, and Universal snapped her right up. In others, Mayer decided to keep Judy and then regretted it when Deanna immediately became a big star at Universal. I've never heard the 'dump the fat one' story, but I suppose it's possible.

All we know is what happened: Judy stayed, Deanna left, and both became stars.

Dolores Gray recorded a version of "Let's (Not) Talk About Love" on one of the Ben Bagley albums. The Bagley version had different lyrics, though, including some gay ones ("Dietrich's new affinity"). Does anyone know if this alternate version was written for a show or perhaps a nightclub act?

I recall her starting off that she "was so blue", r221. She also said in that article that "thank goodness she still photographed young".

Nabbing Deanna Durbin was one of the best moves Universal made at the time.

I guess Ethel Merman was considered too old, too unattractive, and too "passay" for ANNIE on screen in 1950, even as a replacement.

R227, the true story behind DD's leaving MGM was this -- in 1935 the studio was considering a biography of early 20th century opera singer Ernestine Schumann-Henck. Durbin had already started performing in the Los Angeles area, and the studio hired her on a six-month contract as a precaution, to keep her available to play Schumann-Henck as a young girl. The project never got off the ground, and Deanna's contract expired in early 1936. Producer Joe Pasternak, who had produced a series of light musicals in Germany, had seen Durbin perform and convinced Universal to sign her up as soon as the MGM contract expired.

There was a clause, in the MGM contract, however, that said the studio could call her back for for a single project within a six-month period following the expiration of the contract.

Since Durbin was already appearing on radio, and being groomed by Universal, MGM took advantage of the clause and brought her in to do the short EVERY SUNDAY with their own new juvenile contract player, Judy Garland. Deanna shot her scenes and returned to Universal. End of story. There was no "keep the fat one" or "fire the flat one."

Is OP’s photo at Studio 54?

Deanna Durbin's best performance was in a 1944 film noir called Christmas Holiday with Gene Kelly. It occasionally turns up on TCM.

I was wrong.

R232

There is apparently a huge treasure trove of Cole Porter music waiting to see light of day, but sadly hasn't or never will.

"Let's praise the masculinity of Dietrich's new affinity

Let's picture Cleopatra saying “scram” to her virginity

My dear, let's talk about love.*

“Let's Talk,” which was written for the 1941 musical comedy “Let's Face It,” was not used because there was a feeling it might detract from Danny Kaye's “Let's Not Talk About Love,” set to the same music.

/quote

Sisters...

[Quote] “Let's Talk,” which was written for the 1941 musical comedy “Let's Face It,” was not used because there was a feeling it might detract from Danny Kaye's “Let's Not Talk About Love,” set to the same music.

That's interesting. Thanks. It's funny how "Ev'ry Time We Say Goodbye" was recycled in "The Seven Lively Arts." Perhaps it was given to Kaye only because he made a stink about it?

And by recycled, I mean "... Goodbye" was used in both acts - Nan Wynn sang it in the first act and Dolores Gray reprised it later.

Carol's take-off of Judy/Betty...

Look at the OBC for "Let's Face It"...

Eve Arden

Danny Kaye

Carol Channing (understudy to Eve Arden)

And DL fave Vivian Vance!

Deanna's very good indeed in "Christmas Holiday", really a film noir, with Durbin playing someone who has ended up kind of like Donna Reed in "From Here to Eternity". Kelly gives a performance that might have held a clue as to what his Pal Joey might have been like, playing a real heel, though he doesn't get to dance or sing in the film. Very misleading title for the film. NY Times critic didn't like Deanna in the dramatic change of pace role as he still saw her as Little Miss Fixit, but the film still made money.

Deanna was wooed to come back to films, especially at MGM - Mario Lanza wanted to sing opposite her, "Show Boat" as Magnolia and "Kiss Me, Kate" were films she was sought for, as well as "My Fair Lady" on stage (and "Oklahoma!" before she retired) and her name was bandied about as a comeback for the movie of "My Fair Lady". Producer Joe Pasternak, who mentored her at Universal and had moved to MGM, would visit her in France and try to get her to return, but she always declined.

Betty was a great Broadway performer, but like many of the great Broadway performers of mid-century (Carol Channing, Zero Mostel, and her nemesis Ethel Merman) she had trouble reining it in when she was on camera. She was always projecting to the very back of the theater even when there was no theater.

A great director like Preston Sturges got a believable and funny performance out of her in "Miracle of Morgan's Creek".

R247

Think you're onto something there; and it may also explain why Betty Hutton couldn't cut it on television either.

As Neely finds out in Valley of the Dolls, even successful stage actors had to relearn or whatever things to adapt to performing on television, live or recorded.

Basics are same, knowing one's lines and hitting marks, but everything is much smaller if you will. You're not playing to a thousand or more seat house, but to comparatively tight confines of a set and cameras.

The Helen Lawson character was based loosely on Ethel Merman and the Neely O'Hara character was based a bit on Betty Hutton. Ethel Merman actually ordered a musical number cut during previews of the show "Panama Hattie" before it opened on Broadway. The singer of that number was Betty Hutton, who was creating quite a sensation with her performance of the song. Just like in "Valley of the Dolls", the producer of the show took Hutton to Hollywood and made her a star to make up for her treatment in the show. (Betty Hutton starred in the film version of Annie Get Your Gun, adapted from the Broadway show starring Ethel Merman.)

What was the number? Hutton couldn't remember in the Mike Douglas interview linked.

R249 That didn't stop Bonnie Franklin on "One Day at a Time"!

Yes. There's plenty of bug eyed hams who've made it in TV.

Lea Michele is an example of an OTT type who made it in TV.

Well here's Judy and Deanna together when they were still wannabe kid actors, I'd say both are normal weight for girls of that age. A.k.a. "fat" for actresses.

Let's Face It!

Deanna Durbin was far better looking than Judy. Even when she peaked in looks at about age 20, Judy was never more than cute. She made up for it with talent and charisma, but that didn't sway MGM: They still treated her like Mr. Mayer's little hunchback (his pet name for her). If Judy had looked like Deanna, she'd have been treated better by the studio.

The Deanna Durbin trolls are driving me more nuts than I already am.

Another from the Betty/Martha Raye School of Bombshell Song Delivery was Cass Daley...

[quote]Another from the Betty/Martha Raye School of Bombshell Song Delivery was Cass Daley...

Cass Daley bled to death after falling and landing on her glass-top coffee table.

Don't you hate when that happens, r260?

Paramount had Hutton AND Daley under contract?! Wasn't Hutton enough?

Neither Hutton nor Daley was as good as Martha Raye. After being dropped by Paramount in 1940, Raye signed a three-picture deal with Universal. She rocks out with "Pig-Foot Pete" (which was nominated for a Best Song Oscar) a huge hit from the Abbott & Costello smash KEEP 'EM FLYING (1941). This is a song Hutton might have performed, but Raye has a far better voice than Hutton ever had. You wonder why Paramount dropped her.

[quote]This really doesn't need to turn into a Deanna Durbin thread.

Now, don't get your right arm in a twist.

[quote]Judy isn't even fat in that clip. She has a totally normal body for a 14-year-old.

If your father was Quasimodo.

"Betty was a professional victim all her life. A very irritating and annoying human."

Before I took a closer look and saw the name "Betty" I thought you were talking about "Judy". Because that description suits Judy Garland her perfectly; a professional victim. She blamed EVERYBODY in her life for her troubles, everybody but her. It's was all her mother's fault, and L.B. Mayer's and MGM Studio's fault that she was a drug addict. It was her husband's and business manager's fault that she was always broke. Nothing was ever her fault; everybody was always causing poor little Judy unhappiness. Now THAT is a "very irritating and annoying person." No wonder that at the time of her death practically ALL of her friends would have nothing to do with and she was doing things like having sex with a fan (a FEMALE fan) for financial help.

[quote]What was the number? Hutton couldn't remember in the Mike Douglas interview linked.

Three

[quote] and her name was bandied about as a comeback for the movie of "My Fair Lady".

That movie was made in 1964. Deanna Durbin would've been 43.

Her acting was suited for the stage, where you have to PROJECT to the upper balcony. It's a bit overwhelming on the big screen, think Carol Channing's "Jazz Baby" number in Thoroughly Modern Millie.

Deanna looked good and younger when she sent a photo to "Look" or "Life" in the early 1980s. Plus Mary Martin was first offered Eliza and she'd have been older. Plus a Durbin comeback after 15 years away would have been huge, especially since she could have sung that really well, had a lot of comedy experience and had a good ear and was good with languages and more than likely could learn 2 English accents Durbin would have been a wonderful Sarah Brown in "Guys and Dolls" too.

r238 In order to get Gene Kelly from MGM for that picture, Universal had to loan out one of their stars to MGM ... and they gave them TURHAN BEY.

Christmas Holiday can be watched on YouTube.

I could have sworn this clip was already posted, but here it is again. Betty rips through Cole Porter's "Let's Not Talk About Love" from LET'S FACE IT (1943) . Hollywood always edited Porter's risqué lyrics, but its remarkable how they forgot "Let's talk about drugs, and let's talk about dope! (Let's try to picture Paramount minus Bob Hope!)

Who was the third name to be considered for Eliza in what would become My Fair Lady?

[Quote]Who was the third name to be considered for Eliza in what would become My Fair Lady?

Elizabeth Taylor

[Quote]Audrey Hepburn revealed many years later that had she turned down the role of Eliza, the next actress to be offered it would not have been Dame Julie Andrews, but Dame Elizabeth Taylor, who wanted it desperately.

You bitches are slippin'. Don't you remember who else was in her GYPSY cast?

Somethin' wrong with slippin'?

She must have burned her Broadway bridges with Fade-out and/or been in poor shape to not have been one of the Dollys. She had it in her to be a wonderful one.

[quote]Who was the third name to be considered for Eliza in what would become My Fair Lady?

Julianne Moore, seriously.

Let's face it. The bottom line is, a little Betty Hutton goes a long, LONG way.

I think Bette Midler modeled her career after Hutton. They're basically the same person, at least performance-wise.

I thought it was Mrs. Roper!

Midler doesn't really exert herself vocally. That's why she had the Harlettes.

A friend saw her act at the Palace Theatre in 1953 swinging on a trapeze on stage.

What wasn't wrong with Betty Hutton?

Betty made a lot of people happy during the 1940s and into the early 1950s by sharing her brash, funny self through her films and other public appearances. I know some guys who were kids then who told me they used to cry when she came on screen. I guess her energy bothered or frightened them. So she wasn't to everyone's taste, but she was pretty darn popular. Energetic, talented, over the top sometimes, many times a hoot. Here's the "Rumble" number from "Perils of Pauline", demonstrating Betty Hutton was no shrinking violet! And she was something of an original as well.

r250, see r60.

R202

Betty did move in with one of her daughters and children (her grandchildren) for a bit after leaving that rectory, but it didn't last, and she was on the move again.

Whatever happened between each of the three Hutton daughters and their mother they aren't interested in talking about it, and have refused all requests to do so. Indeed trying to reach any of them on that matter likely will provoke a response from their attorneys.

It is telling that none of Betty Hutton's children or grandchildren attended her funeral.

Look, this was a very sick woman. I recall her crying to Robert Osbourne that her daughters never called her. Sweetheart, he wanted to talk to you about your movies, not your personal bees wax.

She might've benefited greatly with professional help.

Interesting comments at that post, R287, including from someone who seems to have known Betty personally.

If I had to describe her with one word, it would be exhausting.

I remember that TCM interview (I couldn’t find it on YouTube) and thinking how nutty she was. Insufferably whiny and self-absorbed.

[quote] I know some guys who were kids then who told me they used to cry when she came on screen.

Did they also dial with a pencil?

She sounds like she had borderline personality disordered. Most people with that had horrendously abusive childhoods, and she was no exception. I feel sorry for the little kid she was who went through so much, but I also totally understand why her daughters ceased contact with her.

When her youngest daughter was 13, she gave an interview stating that her children had never brought her any happiness. Enough said.

In her frantic numbers she reminds of Jim Carey and Jerry Lewis. Except she seems more exhausting. She was good in films that brought her act down from 11 like Miracle at Morgan's Creek and TGSOE.

[quote] she gave an interview stating that her children had never brought her any happiness.

We discussed this at Chasen's.

^Another borderline. Joan also expected her children to fulfill her endless need for attention and love, and to make her feel whole. It never occurrs to borderlines that children don't exist in order to satisfy the needs of their parents.

[quote] It never occurrs to borderlines that children don't exist in order to satisfy the needs of their parents.

Thanks.

She looks like Mrs. Roper in OP's photo.

Does this look natural?

"Another borderline. Joan also expected her children to fulfill her endless need for attention and love,"

Actually, I've always thought that Joan C. was THE 20th century textbook case of NPD, not BPD. Not that there's a lot of difference in how people with the two disorders treat their children.

But... what was wrong with Betty H?

They pulled Betty out of White Christmas in favor of boring Rosemary Clooney. I'm not sure what happened, but I bet Bing Crosby had something to do with it.

Why didn’t Vera-Ellen take? She was talented enough, but always had the supporting role.

Her autobiography was an interesting read. If memory serves, the portion she wrote ended in the early-1970s, and the intervening years were related by her two friends/caregivers. They wrote with affection and compassion, but she seemed EXHAUSTING (and I say this as a fan.)

She def seems bipolar but it’s hard to tell with performers. RIP Betty.

I vaguely wonder if there was an element of Histrionic Personality Disorder - which like NPD can actually an advantage to a performer.

I mean, when she was young, her whole act and persona was all about "LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME..."

Talk about frightening the children, R299.

Vera-Ellen was probably the most versatile female dancer in film history with the ability to do most major styles of dance -- tap, ballroom, acrobatic, jazz, ballet, etc. Fred Astaire with whom she co-starred twice she that she could dance anything you wanted. She not only danced with Astaire twice, but also twice with Gene Kelly and also with Donald O'Connor wonderfully in "Call Me Madam". Her best known films are probably "White Christmas" and "On the Town". She was dubbed on-screen, though she had sung on stage. There's a recording of her in "A Connecticut Yankee" and she sang well enough, though she sounds more like an Ado Annie, not the sweet-faced ingenue she usually played on screen. She could act well enough, too. I just watched a delightful film she did with David Niven called "Happy Go Lovely" and besides her dancing had quite a bit of the plot to carry.

She started as one of the youngest Rockettes, moved to Broadway and after a few shows was signed to co-star with Danny Kaye. I'm sure after seeing her incredible debut, Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly and all the male top dancers wanted to dance with her. She was incredible. When movie musicals started to be on the decline after the studio system ended, she did some tv before retiring. But unfortunately, while her second husband was a Rothschild, she lost of her baby to sudden infant death syndrome, and pretty much was a recluse after that until she died quite young at about 60 or 61. Plus there were reports of longstanding anorexia, though girl was incredibly strong to do the stuff she did as a dancer.

How's this for a number in a debut film? She really starts moving around 3:15 or so.

[quote]They pulled Betty out of White Christmas in favor of boring Rosemary Clooney. I'm not sure what happened, but I bet Bing Crosby had something to do with it.

Maybe Bing preferred a co-star who could actually sing.

Vera-Ellen even taps en pointe in that! With some of the fastest nerve taps, while looking so nonchalant as though they are nothing, while in fact they are hard as hell to do so quickly.

Did you not see R305? This thread is about ME ME ME!!

Not anorexic Vera-Ellen!

Even Deanna Durbin could dance if you gave her the chance! Most of the time it was enough her her to just sing. But here she is dancing the czardas quite capably and quite fast with Mischa Auer in a bet for who can remain standing at the end.

I really like her Mrs. Roper phase. If you go on Google there are a number of great photos with big bad blonde wigs and zany faces.

[quote]Even Deanna Durbin could dance if you gave her the chance!

I was wondering how long it would take before we got back to Deanna Durbin.

R313 Knowing that a post like yours was coming just made me LOL that it did, and so quickly! LOL

r312 that's definitely a Hawaiian Tropic tan!

r312 That's the exact same picture posted at R299

Why was she estranged from her three daughters? They didn't even attend her funeral. :(

R251, "They Ain't Done Right by Our Nell" was the cut song.

[quote]Why was she estranged from her three daughters? They didn't even attend her funeral. :(

I assume they didn't attend for reasons well known to them. Some women just aren't cut out to be mothers.

[Quote]Some women just aren't cut out to be mothers.

Some women just aren't cut out to be daughters, either.

Betty had an oddball friendship with the Throwing Muses' Kristen Hersh, who wrote about her in her 2010 memoir RAT GIRL.

That Hersh piece is measured and lovely.

In the Mike Douglas interview, Hutton says that she should never have been a mother. Her career was her focus. She also says that her daughters got too used to the high life of mansions and servants. It's not surprising that they didn't have a relationship with her past a certain point.

I wonder did the ex husband, who came into a lot of money via his father, pay for the mansion Hersh mentions.

Betty would have been great in the film version of Mame, don't you think?

E323

That's what Betty Hutton says, but there are two sides to every story. So when, unless or until we hear from any of her daughters we don't know if it was missing the high life or what else caused the rift.

For record Betty Hutton is like a broken record with that tune; always claiming people were only around her for money and so forth. She "bought her husbands, children, blah, blah, blah.....

Mickey Rooney playing Asian was bad enough in the early 1960s. I can't imagine the reception Betty Hutton would receive doing so in the early 1970s.

[Quote] That's what Betty Hutton says, but there are two sides to every story. So when, unless or until we hear from any of her daughters we don't know if it was missing the high life or what else caused the rift.

I thought the most damning part was Hutton's admission that she should never have procreated. In one sense, I give her credit if it was a frank admission. On the other hand, to say such a thing in a public forum when her young children would inevitably hear about it... unforgivable.

[quote]Betty would have been great in the film version of Mame, don't you think?

She probably would have been even worse than Lucy. And I always thought no one could have possibly been worse than Lucy in that movie.

Betty didn't have the required elegance for Mame.

Somebody apparently told her to open her mouth as wide as she could in every photo, and she really took it to heart. She looks deranged.

The Miracle of Morgan's Creek (1944) is a miracle, all right. One of the greatest movies ever made. If Betty Hutton did nothing else, she'd be remembered for this movie.

I've never heard of "The Miracle of Morgan's Creek." I've never actually seen a Betty Hutton movie.

... Created by Hollywood's Gayest Wizard......

Sturges was gay? I keep meaning to watch "Sullivan's Travels."

Variety says, or rather said....

Sturges' wife was prominently featured on some TCM short. He was a workaholic who burnt out at times by some much creativity and overwork. "Morgan's Creek" is brilliant, and unbelievable how that got past the censors. Betty, Eddie Bracken, William Demarest (those pratfalls) and Diana Lynn are all superb and hilarious.

R334

Not far as anyone knows; Preston Sturges had four wives and a passel of kids.

R336

Which of the Mrs. Preston Sturges are you referring? There were four of them.....

Betty's last husband and the cause of her downfall, choreographer Charles O'Curran, later married Patti Page. That marriage didn't last, either, though it lasted longer than his marriage to Hutton.

He looks like a sleazebag.

Miracle... made in 1942, released in 1944, seriously held up because of the censors.

Sturges wrote Strictly Dishonorable too, a wonderful play made into two less wonderful movies.

Great post, R321.

I always feel as though I should love Sturges more than I do.

Re Sturges, The Palm Beach Story is pretty fabulous. Whenever I catch it on TCM, I'm hooked.

Me too, r 343.

THE MIRACLE OF MORGAN'S CREEK is the only Betty Hutton movie where she doesn't sing.

Well, she didn't really in any of them...

Here's a funny scene in the Miracle of Morgan's Creek. Betty's co-star is Eddie Bracken.

On a Betty Hutton blog, it says that attempts to contact her daughters will be responded to by letters from her attorney. It still seems strange they didn't attend her funeral.

Their mother intimates that she shouldn't have had them and their non-attendance surprises you?

No one ever has any love for Betty's Red Hot and Blue (it has nothing to do with the Cole Porter show of the same title). It's a funny, short, very late-1940s film with Victor Mature, June Havoc, and Frank Loesser in an acting role.

RH&B

Re Deanna Durbin's possible casting in the film of MY FAIR LADY: One has to realize that until Julie Andrews succeeded with MARY POPPINS, Hollywood was simply without ANY true female A list singing stars in the early 1960s except for Doris Day, who would not have been anybody's idea of Eliza Doolittle. Well, and maybe Shirley Jones, but she was never quite A list and also too Apple Pie for Eliza.

The films of GYPSY and WEST SIDE STORY were both produced without any singing stars.

So perhaps it's not really so odd to think that an old-time producer like Jack Warner might have toyed with the idea of bringing back one of Hollywood's biggest singing stars to the screen in MFL even if Durbin was 15 years too old. There were still lots of older audiences who cherished the memory of Little Miss Fixit. And if this is true, I imagine Warner didn't consider the possibility for very long.

If I were at that Donahue interview at R260, I swear to God I would've had the impulse to seek her out, and tell her :

"Your whole family ignores you because you're an insufferable, exhausting, annoying CUNT. You mentioned suicide. I wanted to slit my goddamned wrists after three minutes of hearing your mouth. Get help."

[quote] Hollywood was simply without ANY true female A list singing stars in the early 1960s

Ahem.

R290 I meant.

[...]

Hutton’s last child was born when she was 40. In OP’s pic her daughter looks like she could be betty’s granddaughter.

[...]

Jane Powell was around 34 or 35 and could have played Eliza, too, though she'd pretty much been off the big screen since 1958 by the time with the end of the studio system. She played it in regionals and stock, along with lots of other legit soprano roles. Shirley Jones might have played it, since she had only 2 years before co-starred in "The Music Man". But Deanna would have been big news; her first kiss in films had taken WWII off the headlines for a day, and also Allied POWs in some prison camps were falsely told she had died in childbirth during the war to try to crush their morale. Despite really very rare showings of her films on tv (they mostly showed the MGM library, not Universal's), Deanna was a huge star until the late 1940s. It would almost be like Gloria Swanson returning to star in "Sunset Boulevard" in a way, though I don't think it was 15 years since she had stopped making films.

Deanna was sought for the stage version.

[quote]But Deanna would have been big news

I guess "Has-been to star in movie of 'My Fair Lady' " would have gotten some attention from the press, at that. I'm sorry, but the idea of a 42-year-old Deanna Durbin being cast as Eliza in the big-budget movie version of "My Fair Lady: is ludicrous, when Jack Warner didn't even want Julie Andrews.

Deanna Durbin was considered for the stage version which debuted when Durbin was 35--no older than Hepburn was in the film.

[...]

Deanna Durbin, Mary Martin, and Dolores Gray were the first three names considered. I'm not sure how long it took until Julie Andrews entered the picture.

This thread has morphed several times. Now that the Betty Hutton phase seems to be nearing its end, could we transition to Preston Sturges next? He's far more interesting than Hutton. He wrote one of my favorite lines of dialogue: "The fish was a poem."

Mary Martin was the first name considered for everything back then, including Fanny Brice in "Funny Girl."

[...]

Wasn't Sally Ann Howes actually a bigger British star than Julie Andrews by that time? She had starred in "Paint Your Wagon" on the West End already. She's great in the movie version of "The Admirable Crichton" (called "Paradise Lagoon" in the U.S.) which is like a combination of "Downton Abbey" and "Gilligan's Island" which might have been in production around the time of the original MFL casting though. Of course, she was the first replacement on Broadway for Andrews.

By the time of the "Boyfriend" and original casting of "My Fair Lady" I mean, that Sally Ann Howes was more likely a bigger name and a known person to Lerner and Loewe.

[quote]He wrote one of my favorite lines of dialogue: "The fish was a poem."

My current favorite Sturges dialogue is from "The Palm Beach Story" where Claudette Colbert speaks to the drunken conventioneer on the chartered train:

"You smell like a distillery!"

"That's funny, I've never BEEN to a distillery!"

I don't know why, it just cracks me up.

[quote]Mary Martin was the first name considered for everything back then, including Fanny Brice in "Funny Girl."

Maybe on stage, but NEVER on film.

Barbara Harris always reminded me of Betty Hutton. They were both so over the top on film.

[quote]Mary Martin was the first name considered for everything back then, including Fanny Brice in "Funny Girl."

[quote]Maybe on stage, but NEVER on film.

Gee, thanks for pointing out that important distinction. I was referring to a previous comment about Martin having been offered the stage version of "My Fair Lady." Martin never had a significant movie career.

Holy Christ Betty must have really stunk up the Alvin Theatre when she took over for Dot Loudon in Annie. Loudon's was such a classic performance, and Hutton hadn't stepped out on a stage since the Carol Burnett fiasco with Fade In - Fade Out fifteen years earlier. You pay to see Carol Burnett or Dot Loudon... and you sit there and watch Betty Hutton mug for two and a half hours. Oy gevalt! What's that old saying about shit and Shinola? Hahaha.

Sally Ann Howes was also a beauty. Thinking about it, it's odd that she didn't originate Eliza.....was her voice considerably inferior to Julie Andrews?

A Betty Hutton number from one of the "All-Star Bond Rally" films, she's accompanied by ex-Fox starlet Marjorie Weave (left) and the most interesting Paramount singing starlet, on the right, Dona Drake, a light-skinned African-American woman who 'passed' as "Latina". In the late-30s she was known as "Rita Rio" and fronted an all-girl band and made some cheaply-made shorts. She later married costume designer Travilla.

At Paramount, her best friend was Dorothy Lamour, who I'm convinced was also 'passing'.

Betty Hutton has had literally NO cultural significance in the past 70 years. How the fuck can she provoke a thread this long and passionate?

This place, even in its current sorry state, always surprises.

What do y'all think of Helen Morgan? I thought her great in APPLAUSE, back in '29. And, of course, her Julie LaVerne is the gold standard.

I saw Betty on Broadway in ANNIE. It was well on in the run, and the show had been slimmed town to cut costs - there were fewer chorus people and the "big" numbers looked a bit threadbare.

The audience went crazy when Hutton made her entrance, so much so that she broke character to tearfully acknowledge their cheers, so she could get on with the show. As for her performance, it was nothing exceptional, as someone mentioned, her acting consisted primarily of mugging, and by that point in her life she didn't so much sing as bellow. But let's face it, Miss Hannigan isn't exactly Lady Macbeth - she's an overly broad comic foil, and so while Hutton didn't bring a lot to the role, there isn't all that much there to begin with.

Still, there was a sense that we were seeing a legend perform, albeit in sadly reduced circumstances, and that it was likely the last time she would ever be on stage. No matter how good she might have been, the performance was always going to be about her, Betty Hutton, not the character she played. So I give her credit for trying, and it must have been absolutely nerve-wracking for her to go out there each night.

Great post, r378. Thank you.

I also saw her in her short ANNIE run and mostly agree with R378. I did not go in knowing this was her last hurrah. My mind was open. Had Jesus worked a miracle? Well, no. If was soon clear that he hadn't. She was out of practice and not at the top of her game. But she had talent and it showed.

She had moments when she was terrific. There were a few moments when it all got the best of her and I thought we were going to have a melt down. But that didn't happen. She stayed in the saddle and kept it going. She was certainly more interesting than the perfectly dependable Hannigan I saw earlier in one of the National Tours.

Her best moment was silent. Late in the 2nd act, when Hannigan shows up in President Roosevelt's office. She saw Roosevelt and collapsed in a chair, up center. Just sitting there frozen still, staring with those big eyes and her big mouth hanging open... she got a huge laugh. So good for her. Her best moment was when she was doing the least. There's a lesson for the kind of performer who always gives too goddamned much.

Really interesting, R378 and R380!

It's funny watching Hutton in R376's clip doing a trio. She's doing the same moves as the other 2 gals, yet always adds just an extra bit of "pizzazz" into it. They swing their hands, she swings wide and higher, etc.

Oh, and I agree about Dorothy Lamour possibly passing.

Passing? She's dead! DEAD!

Sally Ann Howes had a very strong singing voice. There was an Alan Jay Lerner tribute around 1989 in the NY State Theater (now the hated Koch one). Many big theater and film stars -- Douglas Fairbanks, Jr., Jane Powell dancing incredibly well her big number from "Royal Wedding" with Lee Roy Reams, and at the end with her own conductor and arrangements, Julie Andrews, singing well and being loverly as always. Earlier in the show, Sally Ann Howes appeared, looking radiant and did a really gorgeous "Heather on the Hill". It just seemed apparent that had fortune shifted a little that she easily could have had the career of Julie Andrews. Her performance that night, as well as Powell's ageless dancing, were really memorable.

[quote] Who was the third name to be considered for Eliza in what would become My Fair Lady?

Lee Marvin

[quote]Lee Marvin

Too dainty.

R43, definitely. And did you see her TWEEK PERRY'S NIPPLE at 1:19 into that clip?

I've always loved Betty Hutton on screen, but now I'm in love with her as a person, too, after this long thread. She would have been such fun!

I love that Betty and Kristen Hersh were buds!

Who would play Betty if the Hersh memoir was adapted for the screen?

"The audience went crazy when Hutton made her entrance, so much so that she broke character to tearfully acknowledge their cheers, so she could get on with the show."

Oh my God this is EXACTLY why I could never stand this histrionic old cunt. She couldn't leave well enough alone, could she? She HAD to start with her blubbering, and make the ENTIRE evening about her own personal trials and tribulations.

I'd have thrown a goddamn tomato at her head.

^^ One of Betty's daughters

You can see Hutton gave a sort of workman-like Miss Hannigan in Annie. Compared to Dotty Loudon she's awful. Gary Beach and Rita Rudner are wonderful. Rest in Peace, Gary.

To be fair, R393, Betty stepped into a role that Dorothy had made her own, and it was nothing more than a three-week replacement. I, for one, am willing to excuse her workmanlike performance. As R380 notes, even then there were moments when she shone in the role. I am pretty sure Betty realized going in that this was not going to be her 'return to show business.'

R391 If you watched the "Rumble" clip I posted, Betty was quite adept at throwing tomatoes back at you!

Having only known Rita Rudner for her comedy performances (mostly watched on television), one had no idea she danced and was on stage.

This is more like the Rita Rudner one knows. She's headlining in Las Vegas (or was supposed to begin end of March 2021). Apparently her shows are very hot tickets with frequent sell out performances.

It's not productive to compare any other stage performance of Miss Hannigan to Dorothy Loudon's. It was written for her. She had ample rehearsal and preview time to grow it into something special.

Betty Hutton maybe got a week of rehearsal with the stage manager and assistant music director, followed by one put-in rehearsal and then.... Openin' Night!

I know it was the style of the time, but looking at Hutton's hair in the OP photo makes me itch. And the skin! Stay out of the sun, kids! She aged like milk.

R398, Dorothy Loudon did not originate the role of Miss Hannigan. It was played by Maggie Task at Goodspeed before Mike Nichols was involved and the show moved to Broadway.

Miss Hannigan isn't a really long role per se, but Dorothy Loudon sure made it into an epic laughfest. Her Tony for Best Actress was well-deserved. She was quite hilarious.

[quote]Dorothy Loudon did not originate the role of Miss Hannigan.

And I certainly didn't say that she did. But no one really thinks that Maggie Task was robbed (ROBBED!) of opening the role on Broadway. She played it in an early production at a regional non-profit while the show was being developed. After the Broadway production was capitalized and commenced, a LOT changed.

Betty Hutton was clearly not a well woman. It's hardly surprising that she wasn't good on stage after her breakdown. Shit, Dorothy Loudon had troubles of her own in that vein. Loudon had to withdraw from a production of "Dinner at Eight," didn't she?

I think Loudon had a very serious physical illness at that point. She mostly likely would have loved to ham it up in "The Women".

or "Dinner at Eight", pardon.

And mental illness ain't serious? Loudon also had issues with alcohol. It just seems odd to put one of two on a pedestal.

Of course, they're both serious.

R403

Dorothy Loudon was already very ill with the cancer that killed her barely a year after leaving Dinner at Eight.

R402, you said Miss Hannigan was written for Dorothy Loudon.

Miss Hannigan may have been RE-written for Dotty Loudon

"One of Nichols’ suggestions that contributed mightily to Annie’s success was the casting of an old friend Dorothy Loudon as Miss Hannigan (she had been on the bill years earlier at The Blue Angel on the Upper East Side when Nichols was performing with his then-partner Elaine May). Previously played by an actress who didn’t mine anything close to the comic potential with which Loudon would strike gold, Miss Hannigan gave this underappreciated actress the one thing that had eluded her throughout her career: a hit. Annie was fifteen years after she made her Broadway debut in the one-week flop Nowhere to Go But Up, but as with that show, she was always the best thing in whatever she did (prior to Annie, her sole Best Actress Tony nomination was for The Fig Leaves Are Falling, a show that closed in four days). Surprisingly, Loudon did not leap at the chance to audition for Annie, even though she hadn’t worked in two years. “There’s an old saying,” she told the New York Times. “‘Never be in a show with kids, dogs or an Irish tenor… and this show had all three.” But Loudon’s husband persuaded her to give it a shot and the rest was kismet."

[Quote] Dorothy Loudon was already very ill with the cancer that killed her barely a year after leaving Dinner at Eight.

Indeed. But Loudon was struggling before "Dinner at Eight" ever came along. People who have talent and who have worked very hard for most of their lives can also be felled by personal troubles. That's all.

I think I would have loved her in her Mrs Roper phase—wacky, zany, mugging, breaking into song—a real hoot. I think the daughters were just ungrateful and jealous of their mother’s fame, talent and joy.

[...]

Dorothy Loudon was one of those souls that seemingly couldn't catch a break in life, or at least not for long. Maybe that's why she drank (IIRC).

After having run around with a married man (Norman Paris) for years (it was the old story then, wife wouldn't give him a divorce, the kids, etc...), things finally seemed to cloy. Then Mrs. Norman Paris finally was out of the picture, thus leaving Norman and Dorothy free to marry, which they did in 1971.

Happiness on marital front wasn't to last as Norman Paris died barely six years later in 1977. Dorothy Loudon had waited so long to be made an "honest woman", didn't get to enjoy that status long.

About one year later Dorothy Loudon was cast in the short lived musical "Ballroom". Her big number was "Fifty Percent" which tells of a woman carrying on with a married man. Many felt story hit too close to home for the recently widowed Mrs. Paris, but Dorothy Loudon trooper that she was carried on.

Everyone on Broadway or connected (and many in general public )knew the backstory thus some felt "Fifty Percent" would make Dorothy Loudon wept over and pitied. That being said you can't help but hearing the sadness and somewhat bitterness that often comes with being involved with a married man. Though to her credit by end of song Ms. Loudon turns what could otherwise be a maudlin dirge into something triumphant.

^^ trouper

And Loudon got BALLROOM after Dolores Gray walked out on the workshop.

What? Do tell!

Dolores Gray and Michael Bennett did not gel. Dolores walked. The line fed to the press was that Dolores left because she wasn't a dancer.

[quote]I think Loudon had a very serious physical illness at that point.

Yeah, active alcoholism.

I guess this has morphed into "What was wrong with Dorothy Loudon?"

Betty's disco party at the link. Daughters interviewed.

Thanks, R422, that was fascinating.

The flower moment at 1:33 - 1:38 is BEYOND PARODY.

Considering how Michael Bennett basically all but abandoned Ballroom to concentrate on ACL Dolores Grey likely had a lucky escape. There were hard feelings then and still about how Bennett threw Ballroom under a bus (hence its very short run), in favor of A Chorus Line...

"Ballroom" was produced on Broadway over three years after ACL opened. I'm not sure how Michael Bennett, who produced, choreographed and directed it could possibly have "thrown it under the bus" for a show that was already up and running, or even wanted to?

Did Bennett go to London to do ACL there?

Yes, r427, and there was all kinds of drama with that. He fired Elizabeth Seal, the English Cassie during rehearsals and brought over McKechnie to open the show. I've forgotten the details but the papers were full of it for weeks.

Annie was 1977, Ballroom was 1980. There's some very mixed up Loudon and Bennett chronology in this thread.

And Chorus Line was 1975. No way Chorus Line and Ballroom interfered with each other.

Wow I've got a Dorothy Loudon conumdrum myself; never thought to turn to DL for the answer until now.

I was in high school the mid-late 70s, and one of those years was with my mom and her dance/theatre friends at my "aunt's" house watching the Tonys. Dorothy Loudon was at the peak of her popularity, and if i'm not mistaken, she strolled out and sang 'Broadway Baby' and brought down the house. She had every single person there on her side and she knew it.

It left an memorable impression on me, but I have fast-forwarded through all of the Tonys telecasts from those years on youtube and have never been able to find it. What gives?

R431, here's Dorothy Loudon doing "Broadway Baby," in a performance that Betty Hutton might have considered excessive. The only thing she could have possibly done for an encore would have been to eat the audience.

^^ Loudon performed "Broadway Baby" at the 38th Tony Awards ceremony in 1984, not in the mid-late '70s, which is probably why you couldn't find it, R431.

R432...my gawd, that does make Betty Hutton seem like a mime. She sounds like she swallowed a vibrator.

Loudon was good in Annie, but that's it.

R432 My God, I doubt "Steve" was too thrilled to have his name screeched out in the middle of her butchering his song. Oy.

That said, I think she's absolutely brilliant here in this Annie Tony Awards clip. Just as entertaining as a human could be. Completely over the top, but it works. Betty Hutton looks and sounds like a 18 year old cat who's insides are rotting out.

I've never seen video of Sheila Hancock as Hannigan. Is it out there?

If we're doing Over the Top Dorothy Loudon Performances....

Thank you r432 and r433. It's amazing how the passing of time can play tricks on one's memory. And I stand corrected. In 1984 I was in college and my roommate was a theatre major who never missed the Tonys. must have watched it together. I got him mixed up with mom and her friends. That year was the year Chicago was just about shut out by A Chorus Line. They were 100% Team Chicago/Fosse/Verdon/Rivera, and not sure who this young upstart Michael Bennett was, with his high concept show-within-a-show about Broadway musicals. Or so they thought.

[Quote] my roommate was a theatre major

[Quote] I got him mixed up with mom and her friends.

Understandable.

Dorothy Loudon gradually came to suffer from extreme stage fright (no doubt fueled by drinking) and that's why she had to leave the LCT DINNER AT EIGHT. In one of her rare screen appearances, Sidney Lumet's GARBO TALKS, she plays a secluded and paranoiac actress, more or less based based on herself.

I first encountered her a as kid watching the old Garry Moore Show variety hour, where Loudon had to contend with constant comparisons to the beloved young Carol Burnett, who she had replaced. I adored Dorothy and saw her on stage many times including the Boston try-out of LOLITA MY LOVE in which she brilliantly played the Shelley Winters role.

Dorothy later had the humiliation of being replaced by Burnett in the films of her two biggest Broadway's hits ANNIE and NOISES OFF. So perhaps Dorothy had a reason to suffer from some paranoia.

Loudon was a hoot in "Jerry's Girls" with one number especially, playing an over-the-hill stripper whose patrons tell her to "Put It Back On", which I believe the song was called. She was terrific if "Noises Off" and "Ballroom", and the latter she was really quite restrained in her performance to good effect; she might have even been described charming and sympathetic. No mugging, but just a very nice normal woman.

Her performance of "Losing My Mind/You Could Drive a Person Crazy" is classic. I hope Sondehim liked it -- it's genius.

That’s amazing that you got to see “Lolita, My Love”, R440 — Loudon sounds terrific on the soundboard recording! Any other memories of the show?

[quote]Her performance of "Losing My Mind/You Could Drive a Person Crazy" is classic. I hope Sondehim liked it -- it's genius.

And here it is.

To the poster who said Betty Garrett had a big voice, that she replaced Merman in Something For The Boys...that doesn't mean she had a big voice. Several of the songs were recoded by her. She made enough movies, too, that her voice is pretty well known. I like it but it's average.

She played a theatrical agent in Garbo Talks, r440.

[quote] Lea Michele is an example of an OTT type who made it in TV.

[italic]Did[/italic] she though?

She got the one good role, but she was such an ugly nasty bitch she got dropped afterwards like a hot pie.

Dorothy Louden would have done better if she hadn't been named after a cough drop.

I liked her, r44, but none of her talents (or her looks) was particularly distinctive. Wonderful Town is a star piece, whereas My Sister Eileen becomes an ensemble piece.

That's why she added the o, r447.

[...]

^ Oops, r444

[quote]That's why she added the o, R447.

I thought she was named after a county in Virginia and dropped the second U.

[...]

[quote]Because her pregnancy caused her to drop out of ROMANCE ON THE HIGH SEAS, it makes me wonder if that had some impact on her feelings about motherhood - if she somehow unconsciously resented the child for the lost opportunity of a big hit picture. It sounds very crass to say it, but she was really not fit to have children.

Maybe that would make senmse if she were a failure at the time and needed a big hit picture desperately, but wasn't she doing fine at Paramount?

I read in the biography of Curtiz that he had his own production unit within the studio at this time, with more independence to choose projects and cast them. Maybe it explains why a big WB musical was built around a female star, when WB didn't have a female singing star under contract. They also tried to borrow Judy for this film (MGM wouldn't loan her out - were other studios even aware of what she was going through? No wonder MGM wouldn't loan her out, and let that cat out of the bag) -- and Curtiz was also willing to cast Lauren Bacall (a WB star but not a singer)

No, r452, she added the U so as not to be confused with her sister Barbara.

Betty could croon quite well.

R450 You try playing comedy opposite Linda Manz! (RIP, Linda)

She'd already hammed it up in The Women, r404...

That's probably why I confused the two when I posted. Thanks!

R438, "In 1984 I was in college and my roommate was a theatre major who never missed the Tonys."

Betty was very similar to Elaine Stritch. She would have been better in Follies than Stritch, actually.

Betty also should have taken over for Lauren Bacall in Applause and Woman of the Year.

She would have been a disaster in all three of those shows.

Has Bernadette ever commented on Betty?

[...]

[R464] A little racist humor to "lighten" things up.

[...]

r167 Joe Pasternak told me in a 1980 interview I did with him, that he saw Doris Day perform in the mid-40's and went to the MGM brass and urged them to sign her. "She's gonna be a big star once of these days..." he told them. They didn't listen because they felt they had enough singing ladies under contract at the time.

[...]

R177 Doris Day and Betty Hutton were friendly throughout the 50's until Betty became "obsessed" with Doris around 1958, calling her and begging her to do a musical with her. Most of it was fabricated and Marty Melcher put a halt to the friendship.

Betty with Doris and Marty Melcher in the latter 50's, before Marty put the brakes on.

[...]

[R471] Doris Day was in a very strange position in the culture and the entertainment industry in that she was a ubiquitous and much loved popular star who was also very much underappreciated as a performer - particularly by the more obnoxious Baby Boomers who tried to tarnish her legacy by turning her into a pre-sexual revolution joke. A very hypocritical position because she didn't play weak characters and her most famous role (PILLOW TALK) was as a successful and sophisticated but not bitchy single career woman - a role that couldn't be done today. Today she'd have to swear, sleep around, spout slogans, dress like a tramp, swing both ways and cut the dicks off whenever possible - that's what feminism has morphed into. They can have it.

When I look at Doris' performances now I find them fresh and witty and extremely skillful, with the added bonus that she could do musical comedy, straight comedy and drama (maybe more tending towards melodrama) equally well. A sensational talent and an incredibly modest woman by Hollywood standards.

[...]

I'm surprised that Gene Kelly didn't cast her as Dolly Levi in Hello Dolly! She have rocked that part.

*She'd have

What the fuck is wrong with her in this pic? She looks like a crazy eyed manic loon who still has rollers stuck in her hair.

[quote] Doris Day and Betty Hutton were friendly throughout the 50's until Betty became "obsessed" with Doris around 1958, calling her and begging her to do a musical with her. Most of it was fabricated and Marty Melcher put a halt to the friendship.

Most of what was fabricated, R469? It wasn't clear what you were referring to.

She could have been fine in "The Sound of Music" too.

Yes, her Liesl would have stunned.

[...]

R450: Her sitcom was on during the 59-60 season, what Annie film conflicted with that?

Doris Day couldn't belt, though. Her Annie recording is mostly disappointing.

[quote]particularly by the more obnoxious Baby Boomers who tried to tarnish her legacy by turning her into a pre-sexual revolution joke.

It's ridiculous to blame Boomers for Doris Day becoming a "pre-sexual revolution joke." She did that to herself with her choice of movies. Either Oscar Levant or Groucho Marx quipped "I knew Doris Day before she was a virgin."

She was 37 when she made Pillow Talk. "

[...]

[quote]Doris Day couldn't belt, though.

She didn't but I bet she could have. She seemed to not take many chances. I'd have loved to have seen her in South Pacific or as Mrs. Robinson. No one ever mentions her as a Rose, which I think could have been great with the right director and a willingness on her part to play a difficult person. Dolly would have been interesting but I'm more intrigued by the Debbie Reynolds in the role.

[R483] She had no place in the cynical and crass movies of the post-sexual revolution - cynical and crass in terms of the revised representation of women, who in their "liberation" were expected to put out. Ironically, that actually worked out best for men ("Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free?"). Hence the cycle of "crazy woman scorned" movies like PLAY MISTY FOR ME just a few years away. Doris was often ridiculed by Baby Boomers in popular culture.

Don't blame boomers. People like Oscar Levant, who could be a boomer's grandpa made fun of her. She was an decent actress with a good director, but between Marty Melcher (her husband) and Ross Hunter she finished her career doing fluff. It made her a lot of money, although Melcher managed to lose all of it. Her later career singing was forgettable--she was out of step by then and the material wasn't that great.

Melcher really fucked up her life. He not only talked her out of career-transforming roles like Mrs. Robinson, he wasted all her money and didn't tell her anything about it. She only knew after his death. Her son stepped up and helped straighten out her finances, and then she made good money from her TV show: But in those days, once you went TV, you didn't go back to the movies. She would have had a longer and better career in the movies if it hadn't been for her husband.

[...]

You're right R486 - except it's the persona she cultivated had no place in the "cynical and crass movies of the post-sexual revolution."

[...]

[...]

I've never seen any evidence that Melcher talked her out of "The Graduate". She was pretty much a goody two shoes. She ended her career doing a talk show on Pat Robertson's network, after all. The stigma of doing television had lessened by the 70s---Lucille Ball went back to movies. By then Day was "too old" for leading lady parts. too connected to her "world's oldest virgin" persona and lacked the kind of talent for character roles (and probably the lacked the interest).

[Quote] She didn't but I bet she could have.

No, she bellows in the parts where she would belt if she could.

Doris Day wasn't a goody two shoes. She liked band leaders. One of her latterday boyfriends was Sly of Sly & Family Stone. There's a mid 1970s appearance of Day on Johnny Carson's show where she goes braless. She projects a mature sexuality and she doesn't get embarrassed when her nips are noted.

I believe that Lucy was Nichols original choice for Mrs. Robinson, but she turned it down and several other roles that could have changed the entire complexion of her legacy, perhaps most notable being the Angie Dickinson role in Dressed to Kill. Also, I believe that she was offered the title role in AGYG but had already begun work on her classic sitcom.

I'm surprised Doris never did an "Airport."

Wouldn't we all have loved to hear Lucy sing "They Say It's Wonderful" and "I Got Lost in His Arms."

[quote] I believe that Lucy was Nichols original choice for Mrs. Robinson

Ha! That image in my mind is so funny!

Her sitcom was odd (new format every year) but not classic. Again, she ended up on a Christian television network. She had had one disastrous marriage after another and she doesn't seem to have had much of a personal life during her last few decades---doesn't sound very liberated. Sly Stone was probably a friend of her son and just as fucked-up as any of her husbands---I seriously doubt the rumors of an affair.

When I watch old Betty I see this.

R496 Lucille Ball was offered the Angie Dickinson part in Dressed to Kill with the opening shower scene and the cunnilingus in the cab? I'm shocked she didn't accept. Shocked.

R493: "The stigma of doing television had lessened by the 70s---Lucille Ball went back to movies. By then Day was "too old" for leading lady parts."

Yeah, that must be why she was the first choice for Jessica Fletcher in Murder She Wrote.

[Quote] Sly Stone was probably a friend of her son and just as fucked-up as any of her husbands---I seriously doubt the rumors of an affair.

They aren't rumors. Etta James mentions the Doris-Sly relationship in her memoir.

"Lucille Ball went back to movies"

Yes...yes she did.

[quote]Her son stepped up and helped straighten out her finances, and then she made good mone

I believe Melcher signed her to do the show without her knowledge.

I'm so sick of seeing this post on here. She looks like she just escaped from the loony bin!

r477 The musical idea that Betty was touting to Doris as a deal, was a fabrication. Betty was extremely manic at the time and would call Doris at 3 in the morning and start singing to her and telling her how good they'd sound together.

Richard Zanuck approached Melcher about "Hello Dolly" and Marty had no idea what the show was about. If it didn't involve him, he didn't have a great deal of knowledge of the biz. When Zanuck told him the character was a "middle-aged, meddling widow" Marty closed the discussion and never mentioned it to his wife. That's what also happened with "The Graduate". Marty was given the book to read (probably the first thing he'd read other than the "Trade Papers" or a script), and was disgusted by it.

Doris was mentioned for "Forty Carats" and also for "The Turning Point", in the Shirley MacLaine role. However, she had no interest in doing another film, partly due to the realization of what Marty had done to her and hearing it detailed during the 1974 Trial of their attorney. It changed her entire opinion of the industry. Once she wrote (with A.E. Hotchner), her 1975 best-selling book, she felt there wasn't a need to do anything else in show business and became devoted to her animal work.

She stopped doing her 1985-86 show on CBN after hearing that Pat Robertson had made some horrible remarks about her first guest, Rock Hudson. She would not even consider continuing the show although she'd had a bevy of interesting guests including Howard Keel, Angie Dickinson, Earl Holliman, Joan Fontaine, Les Brown and nearly 20 others.

Once she closed the door to performing, nothing could change her mind including offers to be honored by the American Film Institute and the Kennedy Center Honors.

She loved the concept for "Murder She Wrote" and told them, "It'll be a huge hit but I don't want to commit to years and years of doing a one hour show..." She was equally gracious to Albert Brooks when he met with her in Carmel in 1995 to talk about "Mother".

I believe that Doris and Lucy were the original choices for the two leads in the Turning Point, with Doris in the MacLaine role and Lucy in the Bancroft role. What a missed opportunity that was.

Supposedly Audrey Hepburn was offered Anne Bancroft's role in The Turning Point first. Can you just imagine Audrey and Doris in that film together?

Horrible, if you ask me.

Viewing Ernest Lehman's list of casting options for HELLO, DOLLY! is interesting. For Dolly, Lehman considered Julie Andrews (probably trying to replicate his hit with her on THE SOUND OF MUSIC); Elizabeth Taylor (she couldn't really sing); Lucille Ball (see MAME); Maureen O'Hara and Carol Burnett. Crossed out on his list was Doris Day, who must have turned him down. Written in as an afterthought were Angela Lansbury and Deborah Kerr.

Lehman's list of Vandergelders is just as interesting: Jimmy Stewart, Rex Harrison, Richard Burton, Jackie Gleason, and Alec Guinness.

For Irene Molloy, Lehman considered Yvette Mimieux, Liza Minnelli, Mary Tyler Moore, Maggie Smith, Sally Ann Howes, Lee Remick, and Jane Fonda (!).

I want to know more about Betty. Her Mrs. Roper look is a bit zany, but I feel like it fit her over-the-top personality as an older woman. Her daughters should write a Betty Dearest tell-all, since there is obviously a market for those wanting to know what it was like growing up with her. Please share more information about her wacky behavior.

I think Doris Day was a fabulous generous person and benefactor but a very limited and not very interesting actress. Terrible in dramatic roles like Midnight Lace and even The Man Who Knew Too Much and really not very funny in those later sex comedies. Watching Thrill of It All and Move Over, Darling are a trial....have you watched them lately? Please Don't Eat the Daisies is the only film from that era I like but it's a superior script compared to most anything else she was doing then. I really only enjoy her in some of her early Warner Bros musicals like On Moonlight Bay and I'll See You in My Dreams, as a perfect ingenue sweetheart or wife. It's a shame she didn't do South Pacific as she would have been perfectly cast and was still young enough to play the role brilliantly.

I think she was very aware of her limitations and was wise to quit acting by the late 60s.. I don't believe she was ever officially offered The Graduate. She might certainly have been considered but there was never an official offer. She would have ruined the film.

[quote]She could have been fine in "The Sound of Music" too.

Doris Day did go on to star in the paperback version.

What roles would you have like to have seen Betty in in the 60s, 70s or 80s?

I think she could have pulled off Sigourney Weaver's role in Aliens.

[quote]What roles would you have like to have seen Betty in in the 60s, 70s or 80s?

I could have seen her doing the Betsy Palmer role in "Friday the 13th."

I'm surprised she never made a Hagsploitation movie.

The Shelley Winters role in "Cleopatra Jones"?

She also would have given it her all in "The Poseidon Adventure." She probably would have taken the song from Carol Lynley, regardless of her character.

She was such a versatile performer I think she could have done almost any role.

I would have loved to have see her as an older Tinkerbell in Hook.

[quote]She was such a versatile performer I think she could have done almost any role.

Betty Hutton??????

Olivia's D's role in The Swarm

Betty could have done Bedknobs & Broomsticks.

[...]

The Whoopi Goldberg character in Ghost.

Betty would have been perfect shrieking as Fruma Sarah in the movie version of "Fiddler on the Roof."

What about a movie feature--Mrs Roper 2: Caftan Boogaloo?

[quote] Can you just imagine Audrey and Doris in that film together?

Audrey hated Doris. The studio asked Audrey to have lunch with Doris one time in LA and it did not go well. Afterwards, Audrey told a friend that she couldn't wait for it to be over, because all Doris did was talk about herself the entire time. She found Doris to be dumb and a narcissist.

It was at that infamous lunch that Doris hit Audrey in the head with a fondue pot.

I wonder why her daughters never went into show business?

Could she have given Anita Ekberg a run for her money in that Killer Nun movie?

The Ellen Burstyn character in Requiem for a Dream would have been perfect for her!

R529 That sounds like a total fiction. Maybe Doris talked about dogs, but not necessarily herself. Audrey might have gone on about UNICEF and would think Doris would listen to her.

Yes--I think they were definitely from two very different ladies on a personal level. I'm sure she considered Doris' conversations trite bullshit by comparison.

Betty would've been perfect as Mama Rose in Gypsy

Surely this supposed Audrey/Doris luncheon is a joke?? Why would the studio ask them to lunch together?

Would have loved to have seen Betty as the Dorothy character in The Wiz!

[quote] Yeah, that must be why she [Day] was the first choice for Jessica Fletcher in Murder She Wrote.

No. Absolutely not. Murder She Wrote was written specifically for Jean Stapleton to lure her back to CBS. Day may have been considered before Lansbury accepted it, but it is very well known that the part was written for Stapleton and she passed on it first.

It may not have been written for Doris because she passed on the idea. If Stapleton was more receptive, the idea may have been developed further with her in mind.

[quote]Betty would've been perfect as Mama Rose in Gypsy

Rose is driven, not insane.

[...]

The real Rose Hovick isn't a character in "Gypsy."

Rose is insane. That's what makes Everything's Coming Up Roses terrifying when well sung AND acted. In a good productiont i's when the audience realizes that this pushy stage mother isn't just driven but delusional .

The history of Murder She Wrote is well documented. It was conceived and the pilot written for Stapleton. Day had nothing to do with it.

Jean Stapleton has ever been someone's first choice?

Lucy and Day would have been awful in "The Turning Point" if that was ever a thought. She might have made sense for "Hello Dolly".

The Day/Hepburn lunch only sounds interesting if Audrey really did bean her with a fondue pot.

Ask Bernadette, r536.

Has anyone here seen Hutton's last film "Spring Reunion" (1957) with Dana Andrews and Jean Hagen?

In 1959, Hutton and Desilu tried to make Betty "The New Lucy" with the sitcom GOLDIE, which flopped. During the run, Hutton made this very strange commercial for Post Raisin Bran, one of the sponsors.

Betty would have been perfect as Regina George in "Mean Girls."

In less than a week, a Betty Hutton thread almost maxes out. Love you, DL!

Gorgeous!

[quote]She might have made sense for "Hello Dolly".

Lucy never made sense for any musical. And that includes "Wildcat."

It must have been strange for Betty Hutton's daughters when she died. On the one hand, she was their mother, and it's never easy to lose a parent. On the other, it was very much a blessing because Betty had clearly caused them much pain.

The woman was a professional victim right up to the day she died.

James Brady is the one who told about the Audrey Hepburn and Doris Day lunch date.

r549 Ask and you shall receive. It's pretty awful.

Actually Doris Day and Audrey Hepburn were good friends and that was mainly due to the fact that neither of them enjoyed talking "show biz" but had other interests. When Audrey was married to Mel Ferrer. they frequently dined with Doris and her husband Marty.

I can't imagine it was pleasant to dine with Audrey Hepburn. You had to witness her eating disorder right in front of you.

Doris Day never gained a pound in her life. I suspect "dinner" with Doris and Audrey would consist of a side salad and a goblet of sparkling water with lemon.

But wasn't Doris notorious for having her own ice cream fountain in her home?

r561: Jane Withers and Ginger Rogers had one.

With Marty Melcher's passing in 1968, the soda fountain went. Doris preferred Dewar's Scotch with water and a twist of lemon.

Here's Betty in 1964 on the Hollywood Palace, doing a reprise of her early hits (to a playback track). She gets an elaborate staging, with 12 chorus boys behind her, but it all comes off feeling rather desperate.

It's interesting that the chorus boys' patter at the beginning pokes fun at all her bad points -- she's not a glamor girl, lost all her money, can't keep her mouth shut, doesn't sing soft and low, and is "a nut." That, apparently, was her branding, which is really not a great way to endear yourself to audiences.

Even at this point her voice is in rough shape - she can't hold her big notes at the end of her songs, and does this modulated bellow to try to cover her lack of breath. Things only went downhill from this point for her, unfortunately.

Let;s try this again - must be the Hutton Curse:

Here's Betty in 1964 on the Hollywood Palace, doing a reprise of her early hits (to a playback track). She gets an elaborate staging, with 12 chorus boys behind her, but it all comes off feeling rather desperate.

It's interesting that the chorus boys' patter at the beginning pokes fun at all her bad points -- she's not a glamor girl, lost all her money, can't keep her mouth shut, doesn't sing soft and low, and is "a nut." That, apparently, was her branding, which is really not a great way to endear yourself to audiences.

Even at this point her voice is in rough shape - she can't hold her big notes at the end of her songs, and does this modulated bellow to try to cover her lack of breath. Things only went downhill from this point for her, unfortunately.

Audrey Hepburn and Doris Day shared the same fashions.

After seeing her in R565, I'm surprised she wasn't in either Hello Dolly, Mame ,or especially, Gypsy.

Same silhouette, r566, but Givenchy isn't Jean Louis.

[quote]I'm surprised she wasn't in either Hello Dolly, Mame ,or especially, Gypsy.

Because she was unemployable. Impossible to work with. Erratic. Disruptive. Undisciplined.

As I surmised upthread, r567, she either burned her Broadway bridges with Fade Out or been in poor shape as to not have been offered even a Dolly tour. She was wrong for Mame, and Gypsy didn't have a Rose replacement. She did do Rose in that stock tour with Bernadette as DJ's U/S.

The faculity advisor in Hutton's film is Irene Ryan. Granny from the Beverly Hillbillies.

I love The Greatest Show on Earth.

That's what a 50s era Best Picture should be in my opinion.

And Gloria Grahame should have won for her Angel in TGSOE rather than her Rosemary in The Bad and the Beautiful that year.

I think Betty sounds pretty damned good in that Hollywood Palace clip.

The number with it clouds backdrop and chorus dancers looks lifted from the "Get Happy" idea.

Hardly, r572. My gritty, trenchant performance was all that the critics raved about.

R559, Hepburn's idea of a meal was a ciggie and a breath mint.

Were Betty and Mae West friends?

Doris was strapping.

[quote]I can't imagine it was pleasant to dine with Audrey Hepburn

"Oh, no, thank you. I'm still stuffed from that tablecloth stain I had earlier."

That's not Doris Day with Michael Feinstein. It's Bruce Vilanch.

r576 No,, but Doris and Mae met at the Premiere of "The Last Tango in Paris" that Doris attended with her friend and Mae's tenant, Billy DeWolfe, who is NOT in the photo.

Barbara Cook wrote that she was so thrilled to meet Dorothy Lamour backstage after a performance of "The Music Man," that she immediately blurted out "You're Dorothy Lamour!" Dorothy replied: "Yeah, what's left of me, honey."

DeWolfe lived at the Ravenswood, r580?

Dorothy Lamour is all but forgotten today but she was a huge star and popular pin-up girl during the WWII years. Her Road pictures with Hope and Crosby were some of the biggest financial hits of those years and the sarongs she wore in Hurricane and other South Sea Island films caused a sensational fad in strapless bathing suits and beach cover-ups that even infiltrated men's fashions as seen in Hawaiian shirts.

She was a tireless War Bond seller (maybe selling more than any other Hollywood star?) and was much beloved by her colleagues for her earthy and unpretentious manner.

She was diagnosed with Panamania early on, r583.

r582 Yes he did.

With respect to the lovely Miss Lamour, she told friends that Betty Hutton barged into her dressing room one day while they were shooting TGSOE and blurted out, "hmmm, my dressing room is much larger."

[quote]No,, but Doris and Mae met at the Premiere of "The Last Tango in Paris" that Doris attended with her friend and Mae's tenant, Billy DeWolfe, who is NOT in the photo.

Billy DeWolfe often played unconvincing heterosexuals in early Doris Day movie musicals. Years later, he became a regular on her sitcom.

Well, DeWolfe was comic relief as well. I used to mix him up with his English counterpart Terry Thomas (though I think he had a gap in his teeth).

One of De Wolfe's regular characters was "Mrs. Murgatroyd," who wore a flowery hat and carried a purse but otherwise wasn't in drag. And had De Wolfe's trademark mustache.

Doris also provided financial assistance and medical care to Billy during his final illness. His nickname for her was Clara Bixby, a name he'd dubbed her in 1950 when they worked on "Tea for Two" together.

and I think Rock Hudson called Doris Eunice. Did she call Rock "Ernie" ?

r590 Yes, they were always Ernie and Eunice, nicknames that dated back to the filming of "Pillow Talk".

Terry Thomas had a featured role in Day's 1968 comedy, "Where Were You When the Lights Went Out?" and was quite full of himself, causing headaches for Director, Hy Averback. At one point Doris suggested that Averback hire her friend, Billy DeWolfe.

"Billy has the talent minus the ego" she told Averback.

Interesting Factoid: I was fucked on the floor of Dorothy Lamour's house in Palm Springs.

She had died a year or two before this happened.

Were you wearing a sarong to get into the spirit of the place?

Had they removed her body yet, r592?

What an odd pairing, R580. Here's Doris with Zsa Zsa, also odd pairing.

r595 That was the benefit performance of "Benji" for Actors and Others for Animals.

Here is Eydie Gorme at the same fundraiser.

I love how this thread kept morphing from Betty Hutton to other stars. most recently Doris Day. I guess that's what kept it going for nearly 600 posts.

Another shot of Doris and Betty at a Hollywood event in the 50's.

Bye Betty!

Doris had nice boobs for an old broad.