Cecil Beaton my fair lady costumes?

Not to mention Audtey’s eyeliner and bouffant.

Now they seem to be overdone.

Most period films from the 1960s looked like the 1960s, though. It was not a great decade for accuracy in costuming and hairstyles!

Things seemed to become a bit better by the time the 1970s rolled around for historical accuracy, but not 100% perfect.

Stunning (and brave!)

Beaton was an artist, a designer, and photographer who dropped out of Cambridge. I don't think he gave a fig about historical accuracy here or in any of the other movies and stage shows he designed. He was a consummate aesthete who lived to make things pretty.

Why were the fake moustaches on the actors always crooked?

Conversely, the ones for Hello Dolly! from 1969 were much better. Barbra's hair was even right, though they still put too much eye makeup on her.

I am currently reading the Marlene Dietrich biography by Maria Riva, and I JUST read that it was thought some costume from "My Fair Lady" was a rip-off from her look in "Song of Songs".

"...Years later when Cecil Beaton recreated this look for MFL, he could not use those magnificent [egret] feathers, they had been outlawed by then..."

"My Fair Lady" is set in the later Edwardian period (1908-1910/pre-WW I), so it pre-dates the 1920s. That being said, because it's a musical made in the1960s, there was less emphasis on historical accuracy, as R3 stated.

Historical accuracy wasn't always as important to designers as it usually is today (look at the films of the 1930s & 1940s, though there ARE exceptions, like Adrian's work for "Marie Antoinette" (1938) where he spent time in Europe studying the clothing of the 18th century, sometimes even using a microscope to look at stitching depicted in paintings, and spent SO much money on the costumes, that the plan to film in Technicolor was scrapped).

As musicals tend to be more whimsical to some degree, Beaton designed theatrical versions of Edwardian clothes, taking later Edwardian silhouettes & trademarks (by 1908, the tightly corseted "pouter pigeon" "Gibson Girl" S-line was out, in favor of a more relaxed silhouette, which you've mistaken for the 1920s, but you're moving in the right direction because styles were in transition by that point, and the later Edwardian is definitely predictive of what would happen in the 1910s & 1920s), and exagerrated them.

Look at Beaton's gorgeous English Regency period designs for "On A Clear Day You Csn See Forever". They too, aren't really historically accurate either, but they served a purpose, as this was yet another musical partially designed by Beaton, produced in the 1960s (1969).

Even now, historical accuracy is important, but not always the priority.

Who the fuck cares? They were fabulous.

I remember reading that somewhere r7, but I don't personally think Beaton stole Marlene's look.

Barbra's hair was not right in Hello, Dolly! That washer woman hairstyle wasn't popular until the Edwardian era, When it was popular, women certainly didn't wear long straight bangs with it.

They are absolutely stunning! They are the inspiration for every community theater production of that show. You can drape a whole cast in faux everything and it looks gorgeous.

It is absolutely amazing how some people know so much about stuff that doesn't matter.

Absolutely true, R12. Which is why I personally, would never want to design it. It's the same with other shows, like the stage version of MGM's "The Wizard of Oz". The audience expects certain things when they buy that ticket. I understand that, but I'm also not interested in regurgitating another designer's work.

Those costumes are usually rented, but if I were tasked with designing one of those sorts of shows, I would need free reign to do my own version. Otherwise, what's the point?

R11 Barbra's Dolly Levi is based on the Gibson Girl ideal of the 1890s/early 1900s. I imagine this was done as a result of her being far too young for the role, though Irene Sharaff never discussed it, as far as I have read (and I've read a lot).

The Gibson girl was much more than a hairstyle, though. She was charming, witty, refined, intelligent, liberated, independent, and firmly rooted in the middle class. So you see how Barbra's "too young" Dolly Levi is the embodiment of the Gibson Girl.

So, I think it's rather clever that they designed the character that way. And as for the bangs? It's just a variation on the ubiquitous hairstyle of the time. I can't imagine that ladies who chose to wear bangs at the time, wouldn't have opted for a straight bang, if their own hair was straight.

[quote] The Gibson girl was much more than a hairstyle

Yes, the Gibson girl was big shoulders, big bosoms, massive hips and painful corsets.

Indeed, R16. Those things too. She WAS created by a heterosexual man, after all!

[quote] they didn’t seem all that historically accurate

The biggest problem was the star was anorexic and looked sickly in the ball scene.

Look at the MFL publicity from 1964 and it tells you the producers scoured LA and NY for mannequins with stick-thin bodies who were prepared to walk in stilt-like shoes to show off the dresses.

Cecil was talented but he was also petulant, precious, neurotic with a persecution complex.

He would create silly self-damaging drama with his colleagues including George Cukor and Larry Olivier and sulk for months. He hints at it all in this—

One thing about “historical accuracy” in costumes is we don’t have documentation about what EVERYONE wore.

We might know what was popular or fairly common... but, for instance, if you look at the cloth flower on Eliza’s belt, below, you might think it’s “wrong.” (Too blunt and simple in silhouette, which gives it a 60s mod vibe.) But you’d also figure the odds are that someone, somewhere in the Edwardian era probably did have a belt like that, even if they were bucking trends.

So, it’s not really wrong so much as it may be atypical.

Cecil and I were lovers

Sorry to all the Beaton_Beatoffs, but I found the costumes distracting in MFL.

R21 Cecil likes to tell us that he and Garbo were lovers.

I don't find it credible

[quote] I found the costumes distracting

The costumes distracted you from the plot, the songs, the drama?

You could watch the movie with the color turned off.

[quote]R19 Cecil was talented but he was also petulant, precious, neurotic with a persecution complex.

He was also bitterly anti-Semitic.

He put the word “kike” along with tiny Stars of David and the names of some Jewish movie mogul wives in a magazine illustration, then when it became a scandal he claimed it all must have been added subconsciously (!!) as he was terribly, terribly overworked.

[quote] In 1938 he caused a huge scandal. Commissioned to illustrate an article about New York society for American Vogue, he produced a good drawing, but added in tiny letters sentences containing the word “Kike” to it twice. It wasn’t noticed in the layout stage, and the magazine went to print.

[quote]Many readers and reporters confirmed it was perfectly legible to them, the magazine had to be recalled and pulped, and Beaton was fired, although apparently with great regret by Conde Nast. Beaton was interviewed several times over this, insisting he wasn’t anti-Semitic, he had expected it to be caught and erased by the art department, and even that he didn’t know what “Kike” meant.

R25 Don't let those 4 letters distract you from the rest of his six decades of talent, work and wit.

You don't need to wear blinkers.

[quote] Maria Riva,… thought some costume from "My Fair Lady" was a rip-off from her look in "Song of Songs".

I wonder which one?

[quote] Adrian's work for "Marie Antoinette" (1938) where he spent time in Europe studying the clothing of the 18th century, sometimes even using a microscope to look at stitching

I wish all that behind-the-scenes work was documented in some TV doco or something

[quote] spent SO much money on the costumes, that the plan to film in Technicolor was scrapped

That is a great disappointment to me. (I think B&W is so limiting).

R8 That tightly corseted "pouter pigeon" look you mention seems rather unattractive to my taste (even though it's popular with the Muscle Marys.

[quote] It is absolutely amazing how some people know so much about stuff that doesn't matter.

Why don't you tell us the things that really matter, dear. Here, on a gay gossip forum

The lack of color photographs (or even finished sketches in color) recording many of the great costumes for mid-1930s/1940s films is surprising at first. But then one is reminded of the industry's focus on immediate use and reuse for profit from the studio conveyor belts. That left in-house memory, unrecorded, and the grabs of a few collectors.

Now film-brand marketing is curating the things before the raw filming.

R8 You mention the 'S-line'.

I've heard others use the 'S-line' when describing Molyneux's dresses.

Women were obliged to push their hips forward (like the first picture in the link below) to emphasise their shape.... in lieu of their flat chest.

Are Bab's talons accurate?

R20, dear, the fact that in every year of the early 20th century a few British ladies ran down the lane naked except for an aspidistra up their lady conchs does not make Beaton's perfect costumes any more "accurate to the period." Beaton, after all, tilted quite close to the period, and he was doing precisely what he and production wanted to have done.

Cecil Beaton wanted the film to be made on location at Covent Garden in London.

George Cukor may have also. After all, he made this charming small comedy in London in 1975.

But Jack Warner was determined that his biggest, most expensive and last movie be done in Burbank in order that he would have minute-by-minute TOTAL control.

[quote]r26 Don't let those 4 letters distract you from the rest of his six decades of talent, work and wit. You don't need to wear blinkers.

I am quite familiar with his life and career. Thank you.

[quote]R31 The lack of color photographs (or even finished sketches in color) recording many of the great costumes for mid-1930s/1940s films....

If we saw the actual costumes from black and white films in color it would be jarring. They were a mishmash of colors because the various tones were chosen for how they’d photograph in that black/white/grey spectrum, not for how they appeared in person.

This dress is supposed to blood red. As red as the blood from a thousand vaginas.

[quote] the various tones were chosen for how they’d photograph in that black/white/grey spectrum

Yes, monochrome photography is SO limiting!

[quote] [R26] Don't let those 4 letters distract you from the rest of his six decades of talent, work and wit. You don't need to wear blinkers.

So, you're saying we have to overlook his blatant anti-Semitic behavior because he was a good clothing designer and photographer.

I see.

[quote] Notice how the infamous "Red" dress that shocked everyone was really black.

The fabric was actually brown.

What are you going to do about it at this point R42? Refuse to look at any film that has his designs in it? What are you going to do at this point about Jerome Robbins who actually ruined people's live? Refuse to watch WSS or Fiddler or Pajama Game...ever again?

You are not making any sense in your righteousness. Looks like your the one who wants a book burning. Or should I say a DVD burning.

I like this girl. She recreates historical garments for herself, and even has videos on antique sewing techniques, etc.

R22 r24 you can watch Pygmalion with Wendy Hiller instead. It's got the greatest fey Freddie.

I read that Madeleine Vionnet invented Off-the-bias.

She made diagonal cuts against the grain of the fabric. And this made the fabric drape in a flattering way over the body.

I wonder if that's true?

R46 Yes, Pygmalion with Wendy Hiller is like a contemporary comedy.

It's amusing and Henry Higgins is feasible as an attractive man (if you squint).

You can almost imagine the sexual tension between him and Eliza (which of course doesn't exist in the 1964 version) .

Freddie in the film of Pygmalion is the worst casting in the history of the world. Jeremy Brett alone makes My Fair Lady the superior film. Hiller is great but the rest of the film sucks. And you keep waiting in vain for the glorious score.

By the way on May 25th MFL will be released in 4k for those who can play it. I can't imagine it being better than the 50th Anniversary bluray but we will have to see.

^ I though David was rather cute.

Do you think he was fey?

r40, as r43 states, it was brown. As was her Margo gown.

The Dolly Dress...

I read once that Sharaff told the studio they had to make another gold dress because at some point it was going to be ruined. The studio said no because it would be too expensive. Sharaff though knew her business. So she had a copy made herself paying for it out of her own pocket. Sure enough at some point the dress was ruined and they needed another one right away as the budget was already through the roof and there could be no delay in filming. Sharaff sold Fox the dress for a nice profit.

I assume Irene Sharaff has Palestinian heritage.

I think I've only read that on DL, r53. I would have thought that would have been mentioned at r52 if it was true. I like her Tiki vid...

I can't forgive Beaton for Audrey's ballgown from the last act, the one that's supposed to be the be-all and end all of her lifetime fashion career.

It's horrible! Well, it's pretty enough in its own right, but it's so far from being accurate to the period that it looks like nothing else in the movie, it's unflattering to Hepburn (he should have used something to fake the curves that the period adored), and her hair! Totally sixties bouffant. I remember seeing the film for the first time and thinking "Shit, is THAT what they put her in for THIS scene?", and the disappointment has never gone away.

I'm happy to see you folks posting from Amanda's Ultimate Fashion History channel. She's wonderful.

Mr. Beaton for Miss Carol Lawrence...

R29 It wasn't QUITE that exaggerated. But you'll see the resemblance in the photos at the provided link. And I guess it DOES remind me of muscle guys who walk around with their chests pushed out. 🤣

R32 The S Line I'm speaking of was popular at the time of Molyneaux' birth. Imagine a lady in front of you in profile, facing your left. Starting at the neck, the bust created the top part of the "S", the waist is the center, and the rear end creates the lower portion. See the link.

Lotsa Beaton...

[quote]R56 I can't forgive Beaton for Audrey's ballgown from the last act

What I find strange about that design is it gives the appearance of a sparkling sort of “mini bodice” above her natural bustline... which god knows doesn’t need to be made to appear SMALLER.

The repeated scallop motif is mirrored at the back, where it looks marginally better.

But from the front it’s like, “What’s going ON??”

Julie Andrews' ballgown for Eliza was more period accurate.

Again, why?

Or were Audrey’s tits higher than her armpits??

R61, R64 I agree. I hate that dress.

That sparkly mess around her neck makes her neck longer and separate from the body.

It's as ugly as this—

One common error in a lot of period movies is an obsession with making everything on screen look specifically 19-whatever and you don’t see some clothes, interiors, cars etc that are 5 to 20 years out of date, as you do in reality.

[quote] out of date

Cecil Beaton decorated Mrs Higgins' house in the Art Nouveau style which was then 20 years out of date.

[quote]Refuse to watch WSS or Fiddler or Pajama Game...ever again?

Again?

R66 That's my pet peeve about most historical films set in the 1960s and 1950s, especially, everything is brand new in them!

But back to the topic at hand.

'Downton Abbey' looks very faithful to the period with all those unflattering, over-jewelled, waistless sack-dresses.

R64, I think the beaded scalloping is meant to give some structure to her bony chest area. The pattern seems to be trying to give the illusion of the tops of breasts.

I think the dress is nice enough, and I very much like the necklace--they were working with one of her assets: a long, slim Nefertiti neck.

I get frisky whenever I see a neck like that.

R59 The corsets in your link look scary. I read a memoir where one woman maintained her fashion-chasing friends laced their corsets so tightly they cut their livers in two.

I think fashion breeds stupidity.

Is this on the Queen Mary? Look at the low ceiling.

What are those words on the left?

R73 There definitely were reports of internal damage/re-arranging of internal organs/passing out due to not being able to breathe. I've not read the account you mentioned, but internal damage was very real consequence to varying degrees.

Here's the thing R66...

Each decade takes about three or so years to come into its own. So 1951 will look more like 1948 or 1949, than it would 1955, if that makes any sense. Or 1982 looks more like 1978 or 1979, than it does 1985.

Any designer (costume, scenic, or otherwise) worth their salt knows that everything doesn't suddenly flip to a new aesthetic, at the turn of a decade. To quote Amanda at The Ultimate Fashion History: "Fashion is a response, not an island."

Typically, time period parameters are established at the very beginning of the production process, so that everyone is on the same page...everyone from the director, to the actors, and the production and costume designers.

So it absolutely IS important to remember that not everyone will dress in the newest fashions of the day. For instance: the severely sour and haughty Lady Bracknell in "The Importance of Being Earnest" wouldn't dress in the same manner as her daughter Gwendolyn. She skews a few years earlier in dress. She's terribly Victorian!

Woe to the costume and production designers who are so limited in their scope!

I and many people have always found Hepburn stunning in that gown especially when she makes her entrance walking down Higgins stairs, then puts on her burgundy wrap which is then followed by a beautiful bit of business which I'd like to know if it came from Hart or Cukor. I suspect Hart. In that photo Andrews looks like she's in the national tour of Irene.

And in any case though he chose it Beaton did not design it. He found it I'm not sure where.

R31 There was a good book released several years ago with photographs and sketches from the archives of 20th Century Fox's costuming department.

The funniest thing about those costumes were the whores and street hustlers that Cukor hired to wear them in the group scenes.

And he also chose the UGLIEST old women in town.

Why did Audrey Hepburn walk as if she were constipated in the Embassy and Ascot scenes? Was that someone's idea of sophistication? And Annette Funicello did a better job lip synching to her songs in "Beach Blanket Bingo" than Audrey did in MFL.

It was Marni Nixon who did the lousy job of lip synching. Audrey had already filmed her scenes to her own tracks. Nixon with all her experience botched it. Probably with the help of Lerner and Previn. All three should have known better. It might be the worst job of dubbing I've ever seen and I've seen a lot of movie musicals. As the film was finished at the end of '63 they had enough time to get it right.

Jack Warner made a mistake by not filming on location, and he made an even bigger mistake by not casting Julie Andrews. It wasn't just her superior voice, but Julie brought a sweetness and pathos to Eliza that Audrey didn't. (Performance starts 50 seconds in.)

Julie Andrews screen test

R56 here, the first to bitch about Audrey's horrible MFL ballgown. IMHO Beaton should have used a silouette rather like this [pic]. Hepburn actually had the tiny waist fashionable in the period, he should have shown it off, and used appropriately placed ruffles, rosettes, and petticoats to add fake curves elsewhere where appropriate. He didn't even need to give her a pouter-pigeon bust to get the fashionable S-line, because her dress was bought by Higgins and/or Mrs. Higgins, and neither one would go for the latest extreme fashion, they'd just pick something beautiful and obviously expensive.

I have no idea what the fuck he was thinking, with that unflattering stick dress and the horrible bouffant.

Gertie

The rain in Spain...

R84 that looks like Eve Arden

It's Gertie...

The most beautiful clothes in MFL are the Edwardian wraps(what happened to them?) worn by beautiful women at the beginning of the film. If you've seen it in bluray their colors and fabrics are astonishing and only for a few minutes of film. Then the rain comes and we are immediately plunged into the gray grimy world of Covent Garden and its mostly old ugly denizens.

Most of you bitches don't know nothing. His costumes for the race scene were brilliant -- stylised to 1914 specifically-- and infinitely better than Hello Dolly for God's sake -- apart from that key gown with the bird of paradise feathers. Hepburn was wearing a collier resille in the ball scene -- its INTENTION was to make the neck elongated for FFS. But agreed, her ball dress was awful, and they never got the hair right. Beaton was helped a huge amount by the MGM set designer - forget name - who made sense of his drawings.

Beaton was invited to a friend's pool party at his country house -- he turned up, and when he saw the pool was full of naked men, he turned on his heels and left! That meant 100 mile round trip! The irony was my friend was upper class (the barony and castle went to his older straight brother), and Beaton wasn't-- he was middle class and always nervous about his status and sexuality. This was when he was having the on-off affair that stupid narcissist Garbo.

Wasn't this also when he was having his real affair with the young very handsome Kin who seems to have rarely discussed his relation ship with Cecil? Beaton took some very wonderful photographs of him. There might very well have been nudes but they were probably destroyed.

[quote] Beaton was invited to a friend's pool party at his country house -- he turned up, and when he saw the pool was full of naked men, he turned on his heels and left! That meant 100 mile round trip! The irony was my friend was upper class (the barony and castle went to his older straight brother), and Beaton wasn't

Holy cow! Just how old ARE you?

One of the things I liked best about "Mad Men" is that the costume and set designers specifically understood that people often have clothes and furnishings from previous decades. Don and Betty's house in Ossining was very new and up-to-date, and the glamorous apartment Don and Meghan shared was even futuristic for its time (since Meghan was very fashion-forward),;but the apartment Don rented after he and Betty separated (before he met Meghan) had mostly 40s furnishings in it, and Peggy's mother had a very old-fashioned house interior in bay Ridge and always wore very dowdy clothes for the era.

R6, go look again at what Irene Sharaff gave Babs to wear to the Harmonia Gardens. Then come back here and tell us all again about historical accuracy.

The dress is not accurate historically or for the character. Least of all for the character. But it is wonderfully theatrical.

R13 = straight but not narrow

[quote]His costumes for the race scene were brilliant

They are gorgeous but I just don't understand the flat washed out lighting used in that scene.

I realize they were going for a stagey artificial look but it seems like it was filmed and lit in a High School gymnasium.

The clothes would have looked so much better with more atmospheric lighting.

[quote] I just don't understand the flat washed out lighting used in that scene.

They are at a horse race. It is day time.

[quote] Hepburn actually had the tiny waist fashionable in the period, he should have shown it off, and used appropriately placed ruffles, rosettes, and petticoats to add fake curves elsewhere where appropriate.

His idea was probably to get Audrey's Eliza to stand out from the crowd, to wow them by not pandering to them.

[quote]Most of you bitches don't know nothing.

We know proper grammar.

[quote] Beaton was helped a huge amount by the MGM set designer - forget name -

All these forgotten details are explained in the 128 page book shown at R19.

Beaton explains his costuming decisions (as well as awful Jack L Warner and jealous George Cukor)

The black and white colouring for the Ascot scene was inspired by the mourning black.

[quote] Beaton was invited to a friend's pool party at his country house -- he turned up, and when he saw the pool was full of naked men

Name and dates please.

This anecdote —with its lack of details on motivation— sounds like second-hand gossip.

^ No, third-hand gossip.

The Ascot scene is outdoors during a cloudy day so that the lighting reflects that. I think it's a wonderful scene though I know there are those who dislike the 60s look. I see it but it doesn't bother me as it gives it a touch of mod 60s London which I think works really well. Some of the costumes are really bizarre like the lady with what looks like a black Christmas tree on her head and another who seems to have stylized eyes all over her dress. And Eliza's dress is stunning and hilarious at the same time. Hepburn was the only one in the world who could have worn that dress and not have it overwhelm her. Look at Andrews' dress in the stage version. After the movie it's pretty boring. Hepburn is also perfection in the scene. Delivering every line with clipped clear precise diction with just a touch of a cold. This is Cukor at his best. I just wish he left out the stage bit with Harrison putting the the teacup on his head. I bet it got a big laugh on stage but close up in the movie it looks forced.

For what it's worth Cukor was not entirely happy with the sequence and wanted to do some reshooting. Beaton had his own qualms as well. When Warner heard this he had the set immediately torn down.

[quote]The Ascot scene is outdoors during a cloudy day so that the lighting reflects that.

Other scenes in the movie are richly detailed. Look at Henry Higgins' home.

The Ascot scene seems to be from another film with those flimsy looking stylized sets. Like some sort of dream sequence compared to the rest of the film.

Though I do like the 1960s sensibility that infuses the costumes, hair and makeup.

[quote] Name and dates please. This anecdote —with its lack of details on motivation

LOL. What fucking motivation do you need?! Beston was a tedious snob who was screwed up over his sexuality. My friend’s country house and estate was stunning - he’s now dead and the house (ultra modern, long flat roof: a bigger and more comfortable version of Philip Johnson’s Glass House ) no longer exists: it burnt down shortly after his death. Everyone who was anyone turned up there, including Nureyev. And he was a great host in the manner of his upbringing. though an aristocrat he loathed snobs, and thought Beaton the biggest arse in the world. I loved going there. He had the most fabulous photographic albums stretching back to the 1920s — he’d had sex with men in every major city in the world — and their photos were there, and photos of his original family house - his mother’s desk had been Marie Antionettes. No one knows where the albums went, which is a desperate shame as they would have made the most fabulous book. I used to spend afternoons browsing his other books: he had a full run of The Saturday Book. If there’s any English eldergays here they’ll remember those: you always found them in gay country houses.

R28 I know at least part of Adrian's "Marie Antoinette" was documented on film (as a retrospective, I think). I will have to find that, and post it here. Of course, I've also read tons of online articles, and bits in books. When I find that clip (and I will look), I'll bring it back here.

Those are enough details for me, R104. Must we question every good story that gets posted? All that does is drive off posters with interesting stories to tell.

[quote]There was a good book released several years ago with photographs and sketches from the archives of 20th Century Fox's costuming department.

Except there are not sketches, just wardrobe photographs. I owned it at one point.

deborah noodleman landis has done a few books on hollywood costume design that do have sketches.

I wonder if Cecil moved in the same social circles as Chips Channon?

Did they share rentboys?

Or Coldsteam Guards?

Coco by Ceci

I read Riva's memoir of her mother several times, it's absorbing.

I had to see Marie Antoinette after reading Dietrich went to a screening of the film and lost her shit over the fabulous wig and costume designs.

[quote] I wonder if Cecil moved in the same social circles as Chips Channon?

Everyone wanted Peter Watson, the margarine heir., shom Beaton pined for. There’s a fabulous novel written by one of Watson’s former lovers describing what it was like to be ‘taken up’ by him. The chap later married and his wife urged him to publish it.

I read that MGM's costume collection warehouse burned down so many of those magnificent Adrian costumes were lost. My favorite from Antoinette is the fireworks dress which didn't even make it into the film.

How some survived I don't know. I remember seeing a costume from Queen Christina many years ago and I've forgotten where. Was it here I once read that Garbo said to Adrian, I never liked wearing your clothes.'?

[quote]I read that MGM's costume collection warehouse burned down so many of those magnificent Adrian costumes were lost. My favorite from Antoinette is the fireworks dress which didn't even make it into the film.

Nope. Most of MGM's costumes were sold at auction in 1970 Including Marie. Pennies on the dollar.

Riva claims the classic Chanel nude and black shoe is ripped off from Dietrich who designed shoes to make her legs look longer and feet smaller.

I’m so glad OP started this thread. This subject has been ignored for TOO LONG.

"Was it here I once read that Garbo said to Adrian, I never liked wearing your clothes.'?"

To be fair, I don't think Garbo ever liked wearing anything remotely feminine.

I sometimes wonder if Greta Garbo was somewhere on the spectrum.

^ Garbo was a 19th century-Swedish woman.

She had her own culture.

She set it before the vulgar world culture that we inhabit was established.

Dear R25, no doubt you'll take pleasure in ignoring this enthusiast's appreciation of Beaton's diaries.

r115 - "Darling, the legs aren't so beautiful, I just know what to do with them".

R59

Oscar Wilde described in 1887 how 'civilised women would hang on to a crossbar while her maid laces her waist into a 15 inch circle'.

I understand he was involved in something called Dress Reform but I don't quite know what that is.

19th century "Dress Reform" was the radical notion that people who could afford to wear ten layers of high fashion might want to wear something practical and comfortable instead.

A few outrageously unconventional women dared to wear stuff like the outfit in the pic instead of hoop skirts and whalebone corsets, or the huge puffy "bloomers" that became marginally acceptable by end of the century. By the end of the century women of leisure were starting to ride bicycles and participate in genteel sports or even bathe in the ocean, they needed something that allowed at least a little movement.

[quote]R122 I understand he was involved in something called Dress Reform

Well, in doing drag he was.

Speaking of, when Denny died at 34, he looked 50 something. Fortunately I had him very young, when Jean Marais was too exhausted to take him again, and sent Denny over to my room at the Villa Noailles.

^ Denny, you've dated everyone!

Another THAT DRESS!

After all these posts, perhaps someone should remind the OP that individuals and crowds singing together in London's streets (or pretending to sing while Marnie Nixon's voice comes out of your mouth) is not especially "accurate," either.

OP, where is it written that the costumes are required to be historically accurate?

There is no such requirement.

I went googling to see if George Cukor wrote any memoirs to counter Cecil's memoirs mentioned at R120 and R25.

Cecil was rather melodramatic and self-aggrandising but I suppose George was too sensible to be bitchy in print.

Well, anyway I found this curiosity—

Was Cecil the one at the party "under the table being had by a Negro"? As reported in the book about Frederick Ashton?

Cukor said in public that Beaton picked his pocket. Really.(It was a joke.) Beaton had to be talked out of suing him he was genuinely so furious. Cukor did complement his work on Coco calling it 'creditable' which with Cukor was high praise. He wasn't one for complements.

'compliments'

[quote] By the end of the century women of leisure were starting to ride bicycles

That must have been rather outré for a generation that expected ladies to ride side-saddle.

(though it seems the current Queen does it side-saddle while 'Trooping the Colour'.)

Yes, R134, women wearing bloomers and riding bicycles was seen as shocking in the late 19th century. It wasn't just the bloomers which were considered scandalous, but women actually wanted to go outdoors and exercise and ruin their complexions! And do something that allowed them to be totally physically independent, instead of having a man drive them around or escort them everywhere! Indecent AND immoral!!!

Anyway, enough with the thread hijack, I just want to say that I prefer historically accurate costumes to fantasias like the ones Beaton put in the Ascot scene. As someone who knows a bit about history, I have a reasonable idea what the people of a given time and place should be wearing, and when I see some of the period-inspired silliness that mid-20th century costume designers put on the actors, it can take me right out of the film and into the 1960s or whatever.

That horse race scene is one of the most magnificent costumes extravaganzas put on film and the set design was flawless. Masterpiece all around.

[quote] but women actually wanted to go outdoors

Yes I'm finding out that my city only starting providing public lavatories for women in the 1920s. But presumably there were public lavatories for men long before that.

The breakthrough for women was the popularity of the bicycle. They needed lighter, more athletic clothes to ride one, and suddenly they could travel (within reason)

OK, the Ascot scene was stylised (as compared the dowdy reality shown R99).

But the whole movie was stylised (as explained in R35).

George Cukor acknowledged the artifice—as did Anthony Asquith in his superb production of the deliciously witty 'The Importance of Being Earnest' which opens and closes within a theatre performance.

If the Ascot scene had clothes accurate to the period it wouldn't be astonishing. It would look like something you'd see on PBS and fall asleep watching. Beaton gets to be witty and even funny. Chanel wanted to do her own clothes for Coco but Brisson was like that's not a good idea.

This on bluray.com about the 4k release. So get it already. And if you don't have a 4k player move into the 21st century why don't you?

'Paramount brings My Fair Lady to the UHD format with a 2160p/Dolby Vision presentation that is not simply "fair." It's "fantastic." The film begins with a resplendent opening title sequence that thrives under the Dolby Vision color grading. The titles are spectacularly white: crisp, bold, and perfect. The colorful flowers behind sing; there's a terrific array of reds, whites, purples, and all variety of colors that leap from the screen to balance the intensely white titles. The sequence to follow, night with falling rain, bleak gray backgrounds, and black formal attire accented in high intensity white, looks resplendent

The print is meticulous and the compression is perfect. It's easy to be a little jaded in 2021 with so many "excellent" UHD transfers now on the market but My Fair Lady proves that there's still room to be dazzled and delighted though, in this case, still not surprised in the least considering the film, the restoration team, and the studio. This may very well be the new ultimate UHD reference disc on the market. It's nearly impossible to fathom anything on this format looking any better than this.'

^ How come Paramount is selling a Warners film?

Warners only had the film for 7 years at which points the rights reverted to Columbia or CBS which put up all the money for the original Broadway production. This then became SONY. I assume though I don't know for sure that Paramount absorbed SONY. Anybody know the exact specifics of all these companies buying up each other?

Wow, R143. That sounds very messy.

I remember someone saying Zukor, Zanuck, Goldfisch and Laemmle etc could just as well be making salami sausages as much as movies.

He wasn't a 'Good Guy'.

He was a bald, bloodless machinator.

Tom Courtenay?

sometimes costumes are just better than accurate. Definitely true here. Don't be accurate, capture the idea. And other things too. I like Queen Margot, but I knew the hairstyles were actually wrong for the period. But in their decadent rock star look, on the guys, they captured the decadent rockstar sleaziness of the French court at that time better than short hair would have done.

R145 Wrong thread

[quote] by 1908, the tightly corseted "pouter pigeon" "Gibson Girl" S-line was out, in favor of a more relaxed silhouette, which you've mistaken for the 1920s, but you're moving in the right direction because styles were in transition by that point, and the later Edwardian is definitely predictive of what would happen in the 1910s & 1920s

Virginia Woolf wrote that "on or about December 1910, human nature changed… all human relations shifted— those between masters and servants, husbands and wives, parents and children, and when human relations change there is at the same time a change in religion, conduct, politics, and literature".

That date may have been important to Virginia Woolf. The film My Fair Lady is supposedly set in 1910 even though Shaw's Pygmalion was first performed in 1913.

The war commencing in 1914 must have been a bigger change. And I suggest that Bakst's costumes for Diaghilev in 1912 were another influence in the abandoning of corsets.

Women still wore corsets through the 1910s, but they were less restrictive than anything worn since the 1860s. They were longer and had less boning, they were more intended make dresses fit with a long smooth line than to restrict the waist, although I'm sure they put more pressure on the rib cage than was comfortable.

Corsets didn't officially become unfashionable until the 1920s, and even then, women with curves still wore foundation garments.

Personally, I think Audrey would have looked better in a 1910 silouette like this than in the shapeless thing Beaton put her in for the ball scene. She was tall and would have been the slimmest woman in the crowd, and some appropriately placed flounces would have given the illusion of filling out the dress.

R149 I'm guessing another change in the 1910s-1920s was the motor car replacing horses.

I understand Victorian women were required to wear heeled boots to avoid horse manure in the streets whereas they could wear slipper-like shoes in the 20s.

R151 I don't think any of us like Audrey's glitzy, unflattering dress and unflattering coiffure for the ball scene. Her hairdo is reminiscent of what Gigi wore in her climactic scene—

Only on DL could there be people who dislike Audrey's dress for the ball. She's supposed to make a show stopping entrance at the top of the stairs in Higgin's house and she does. Never before have I read any complaints.

The image in R151 is embodied by many of the extras in the ballroom scene. Audrey is meant to stand out and she is radiant.

Hepburn's Embassy Ball gown is perfection. She looks magnificent in it.

another view of the gown

Another view through the gown.

Poor anorexic Audrey might just as well have been nude in that scene.

Indeed, that gown could only be worn by a woman shaped like Audrey Hepburn. Tall and lean and blessed with an elegant long neck. If Hepburn had weighed five pounds more, the dress would not hang properly.

If she had been costumed in any of the gowns suggested above, she would have looked like anyone else. But this dress underscores her complete transformation into a woman who was unique and unattainable.

R113, which was the "fireworks" dress? I've tried searching and come up with nothing.

Here you go, R159.

Norma Shearer has the frauiest face in captivity.

Noomi Rapace resembles her. Shearers films are challenging to watch now. She believed her profile was her best feature, lots of profile shots at odd moments in her film. She had to be the saint and the sex symbol in her films, unlikeable.

Nope that's not the fireworks dress. There was a photo of Shearer in the dress but it is not in the film. Adrian was inspired to design it because the court at Versailles loved fireworks.

I found it. Can somebody explain to me how to post a picture? I'm not finding instructions anywhere on the site. Thank you.

"Most period films from the 1960s looked like the 1960s, though. It was not a great decade for accuracy in costuming and hairstyles!"

All film costumes reflect the times they were made in. Today's period films, especially when it comes to the women's hair and make-up but also their clothes, look markedly like the 2020's. Costume designers do this on purpose to make the characters more relatable to audiences and I personally hate it. I have never seen a period film that takes place in the 1920's and 30's that looked 100% period accurate but it's the same with any time period.

Good News is famous for being accurate to the period of the 20s in all facets.

I HATE the "Marie Antoinette" dress linked at R160! A lot of the gowns in that film have 1930s torsos and necklines, and that's one of the worst offenders, with the sweetheart neckline and padded cups.

I really dislike that sort of thing, it pulls me out of the action and any empathy for the characters, and gets me thinking about what was going through the costume designer's head rather than what was happening to Marie Antoinette or whomever. Okay, that does give it a certain camp appeal, and well, perhaps I should excuse Shearer's "Marie Antoinette" for that, because as a drama it's a sticky mess and it's much more fun viewed as camp.

^ LOL. Yes, so is Cleopatra.

The ending of Antoinette where all the courtly extravagant costumes are ripped away and she is wearing a simple peasant's dress in jail and they accuse her of abusing her children and have come to take them away from her is incredibly moving.

Sometimes costume designers and hairdressers must be very aware of how anachronistic their work is: I remember even as a child wondering why Potsie had feathered hair when "Happy days" was set in the 1950s. Often that's because of pressure they receive from the studio to make the characters look more palatable to contemporary audiences. But sometimes I think they've just not caught closely enough the telltale signs of the era they're in, and it only becomes evident later. Michelle Pfeiffer's hair in "The Age of Innocence" is supposed to be in what were in the 1970s called "Josephine curls" (as is specified for her character in the book), but today it just looks like she has a weird 1990s perm done in an upsweep.

Hadn't realized he'd also done Tenderloin.

^ Or that he won the Tony for it!

I was very surprised for some reason that he had worked with Hal Prince.

Instead of ending this thread with a Bajour!, it should be ended with a Tenderloin! instead.

Cukor and Beaton got into a hissy, extended cat fight during filming because B kept pulling Hepburn away from the set every spare second to photograph her, and C found it intrusive and distracting.

Eventually a deep freeze settled in and Beaton became distraught. Bitch should have stayed in her lane.

Maybe that's why it was Prince's first flop after having a charmed string of successes.

William Paley who sold the rights to Jack Warner after what I assume to be a very long time of negotiations with various producers wanting the rights only had one stipulation: Beaton had to do the costume and production design. Cukor was not happy with that. Though he was the boss Beaton was the only essential component of the film.

People think Minnelli should have filmed it. But these people have never seen Brigadoon, Kismet, or Bells are Ringing. One Minnelli film adaption clunker of a Broadway hit after another.

[quote]George didn’t tell me what an evil man Cecil was,” Gene Allen said, “and I don’t know how the actors felt about it. Audrey was as sweet and lovely actress as there ever was one, and so fond of George. But I’m sure she could be just as fond of Cecil, for his contributions. Some of those egos may have gotten between George and Cecil.” They were not on speaking terms at the end; Beaton left Hollywood before shooting was over.

[quote]Beaton also violated a sacred norm of Cukor’s code: as soon as he departed from Hollywood, he began to trash Cukor and the crew. Cukor resented Beaton’s tales of the “absolute truth” about the “strains” and “despairs” of working on My Fair Lady–how against all odds, he managed to put some taste in the picture. Beaton spoke most patronizingly about Hollywood’s “skilled technicians” (not artists) on the order of Gene Allen.

I think he referred to Allen as that son of a policeman. In fact Allen himself was first a policeman.

R175 That 'extended cat fight' is mentioned at R19.

Cecil was talented, temperamental and a little neurotic. I think's OK that solitary artists be neurotic but theatre and movies demand co-operative team players.

Basically, Cecil Beaton was a miserable cunt. That [italic]arriviste [/italic]Beaton’s own father was a merchant, so I have no idea why he’d look down on art director Gene Allen for having worked as a policeman (and then as a soldier) in his youth between art jobs.

[quote] When Cukor talked to Allen about My Fair Lady, he foresaw that, for all the work he would do, there would be little acknowledgment. Cukor didn’t realize then how greedy Beaton was. Allen contributed a lot to the picture, way beyond art direction: He supervised the construction and painting of the sets, shot the main titles, did second unit work, and helped with the cutting. Allen confirmed that he’s never been so busy shooting a picture of that size. “In addition to designing sets, I worked with George on how the picture was going to be filmed, shot by shot, frame by frame.” Cukor felt guilty that Allen was never given the recognition he deserved.

[quote]In later years, Cukor pigeon-holed Beaton CCC, “Classed as Cunt by Cukor.” “We were happy making that picture,” he would tell his friends, “with one minor, but very irritating, exception: The initials are C.B., and it’s not DeMille.”

Hi R164, if you can right click and get the link to the photo you can add it to the Web Site Link: box below the reply, or you can also get the URL of the page it's on and link to that in the same box.

[quote] That arriviste Beaton’s own father was a merchant

R181 Jack L Warner was a merchant. George Cukor was a merchant.

Everybody in the industry is a merchant selling their goods and/or services for cash.

Thanks R182 I couldn't figure out how to make it larger so you could see the detail but this is the fireworks dress. Maybe somebody who knows how could do it?

We don’t care about that cross eyed mutant Miss Lotta Miles here, r184, so no one’s gonna help you.

for r184...

It doesn’t display. Haha.

And FUCK Norma, the cross eyed bear.

Don't care about Shearer but I do want to see that costume!

It appears to be all about the sheer hooded cape, r188. There doesn't appear to be any fireworks on the dress itself. What's that about? Is she supposed to keep the cape on all evening? Even when she's dancing or standing in the buffet line?

R185 Is pea green with envy that isn't hanging in her closet!

[quote] Hepburn stunning in that gown especially when she makes her entrance walking down Higgins stairs, then puts on her burgundy wrap which is then followed by a beautiful bit of business which I'd like to know if it came from Hart or Cukor.

I wonder what bit of business you mean, R77?

I think Cecil's full Victorian gowns for Vivien are more spectacular than skinny Audrey's Edwardian stuff—

Thank you r184, I'd never seen it before, I love it!

R189 you can see the fireworks on the skirt, they look like shooting stars.

Norma Shearer in a caftan. Data Lounge gold!

They're on the cape/caftan, r193, not the skirt.

Norma has never looked more radiant.

I hate Norma's "fireworks" Marie Antoinette gown. It looks drably monochrome in black and white, the shapeless sheer cape does look more like a Palm Springs caftan than anything found in the 18th century, and under the sheer cape is yet another damn early 20th century bodice.

Maybe it'd have looked better in a night scene, where it could glitter and stand out against a dark background, but it's just as well it didn't make the finished film.

They look to be on both r195, it's easier to see in this photo, you can see a little under the cape.

I only wish Palm Springs' caftans looked like that.

The Widow Thalberg in a hooded caftan:

Every thread should be hijacked by Norma Shearer!

LOL @ R201. Norma Shearer, from the grave, has hijacked many a thread on Data Lounge.

Told ya I was hardcore.

[quote]R202 Norma Shearer, from the grave, has hijacked many a thread on Data Lounge.

She always was good at ferreting her was into places. Like between producers’ legs.

I like Norma Shearer except for her beady eyes and that fake little laugh she always does.......

Her personal harlotry was unconscionable.

Norma Shearer wasn't just plain, she was UGLY with her weird crossed eyes. How the hell she hooked Irving Thalberg and became a movie star will forever be a mystery to me.

She did it through sheer will, r207. You have to give her credit for that.

Norma towers above Ruby Keeler, I’ll give her that.

Robert Morley who was featured In Marie Antoinette asked Shearer, 'How did YOU get to be a star?'

She said, 'Because I wanted it!'

And Norma Shearer asked Robert Morley ‘How did you, a completely unknown inexperienced person, get this plum role playing my husband?’.

And Robert Morley replied ‘Because Charles Laughton didn’t want it. He already appeared with you once in ‘The Barretts of Wimpole Street’ and that one time was enough. Besides the role of Louis XVI was a grotesque part but that English actors didn’t mind playing freaks and grotesques’.

Regarding the period accuracy debate: Okay, I'm watching "The Abominable Dr. Phibes" right now, which is on youtube for free. It's set in the early 1900s, at least judging by the cars, because you'd never be able to tell from the costumes! The characters wear a combination of period clothes and 1960s fashions, and Dr. Phibes's female sidekick could have come right off of Carnaby Street circa 1971. But it works for this film at least, because everything is ridiculously stylized and unreal, and the period confusion just adds to the dreamlike oddness of it all.

So I love period-accurate costumes, and sometimes I love weird non-period fantasias like this or "Moulin Rouge", but I've never reconciled myself to mixes of fantasias and accuracy as in "My Fair Lady". When Higgins and Eliza are sitting around the house they're wearing ordinary 1910 clothes (except for Audrey's bouffant), but when they go out suddenly everyone around them is wearing some sort of extravaganza of Beaton's imagination.

You mean, like in the stage show?

Yes, Cecil Beaton won a Tony for the stage show back in '56.

I bet Warners demanded to have Beaton for the movie even before they cast the actors and director.

Matter of fact, Warners did.

Not Warner at all. It was William Paley the head of CBS who owned the rights. There was only one condition for the film in the contract and that was for Beaton to do the sets and costumes. The cast of My Three Sons could have played the characters for all he cared. I bet it was Babe who said you will come home every night to a very unhappy wife if Cecil does not get to recreate his costumes.

The Oscars are on youtube. Gene Allen whom Beaton despised takes his Oscar without mentioning him and Gladys Cooper accepts his Oscar for costumes. I don't think anybody told her until she hears the announcer say Accepting the award for Beaton will be Gladys Cooper. She is seated next to Jack Warner. He must have had great affection for her. She seems flustered then overjoyed that he won. But that cunt Cecil didn't even want her for the role despite his infatuation with her as a boy when she was one of London's great Edwardian beauties. She should have won the Oscar that night. After such a great career it would have been a crowning achievement and it would have made an old woman very happy. She would have be murderous if Edith Evans had won after stealing her stage role..

Costumes by Cecil Beaton

^ That seems to be the only film that Beaton did that didn't feature frilly, flouncy feminine gowns,

In his diaries when working on the original Broadway production of MFL Beaton calls Harrison 'beneath contempt.'

He made a flattering sketch

Gladys Cooper was a phenomenal talent with an extraordinary career and I would love to see a biopic of her, though I'm afraid they'd cast Meryl as a matter of course.

Gladys sacrificed her skin to the California sun. She shrivelled up.

Bette always spoke of Gladys with the highest respect.

Yes, R18, R151.

Nice music but a hideous rig and truss.

She ascends those stairs as though to the guillotine.

Somehow a lyric came into my head.

[quote] the blossom in her cheek has turned to chalk

What a wonderfully curt, pert, poetic lyric!

I hate the movie costumes. The costumes for the play were much better, and no real hints of the 1950s (it was 56, so no 60s influence either).

Dame Gladys had one of the best deathbed quotes. On seeing herself in a mirror " If this is what pneumonia does to one, i really don't think I shall bother to have it again."