Madonna vs. Gaga, revisited

It's Alice Faye vs Betty Grable all ove again.

Gaga's existence has nothing to do with Madonna's legacy. And really, what is Gaga's musical legacy? Having 2.5 hit albums in the span of 10 years? Yeah, that almost rivals Madonna's 7 or 8 huge albums over 3 decades. NOT!

I think Gaga's albums will be appreciated more over time. I think her talent and what she can do with it exceeds the boundaries of pop music.

Madonna is a freak show now. Quite sad to watch.

The old succubus and the new succubus are going to fight over who the pied piper for Satan is until daddy Hades calls them home. Both are disgusting twats.

Madonna has been pretty. Gaga has never been pretty.

Gaga will leave behind a nicer legacy. She is respected for her musicianship and acting talents. Madonnas legacy is pretending to masturbate on stage and her manufactured non controversies from decades ago.

I like them both, they sound lovely on pirated mp3 files.

Madonna has had several distinct and relevant eras. Gaga is incredibly boring and stale… Gaga never did a sex book by Steven Meisel etc.

Penalty kicks. Steel toed boots. Kick away girls!

Gaga has greater vocal ability and she's a more believable actress.

Madonna has a more impressive music career at this point that spans decades and a wide array of genres, which she has succeeded in despite her limitations, and while Gaga has made some interesting and entertaining music videos, Madonna has made some interesting and thoughtful ones, and her live performances and dancing abilities are superior. Madonna has also (as of now) influenced a lot more artists.

They have different strengths. Gaga's technical abilities overall are superior, but Madonna has proved that she can add up all her different marginal talents to a sum that's greater than it should be.

Gaga will have a better movie career but she’ll never be able to touch Madonna’s catalog of music or pop culture significance. The freak Madonna is now has zero relevance to what she accomplished.

Compare their Superbowl performances. And you be the judge as to who's more creative.

.......

Gaga is just getting started so you'd have to compare 2021 Gaga with 1994 Madonna, IMO.

Gaga sang songs from "The Sound of Music" with an orchestra at the Oscars and got raves from the audience, fans, and Julie Andrews.

Gaga also sang "Moth to Flame" with Metallica at the Grammys and got raves from the audience, fans, and Metallica.

By 1994, Madonna...wore a grill in her mouth and pretended to be a lesbian for a few days with Sandra Bernhard.

Imagine...just imagine....Madonna trying to pull this off.

R15 Pull what off, dear? nothing was pulled off-she looks foolish.

^^^^Disgruntled Eldergay

I thought she lost??

Ga Ga creates gag gag.

R17 No, just think Gaga is overrated. I did go see her at a dive bar in LA just so I could tell bigger fans I got to go and they didn't.

[quote] I think Gaga's albums will be appreciated more over time.

I don't really see that happening, that generally doesn't happen with pop artists.

Gaga started off with one huge album (technically cheating--the Fame Monster is really a seperate album but whatever) and then became a lot less popular with each subsequent release, minus A Star is Born. Madonna started off with one decent seller, two huge albums , a very succesful album, the second biggest selling compilation album by a solo artist and then decline with Erotica. And then she came back with Ray of Light and stayed popular until about 2008 or so. Let's see if Gaga can do that. Nevermind, it's not gonna happen.

[quote] By 1994, Madonna...wore a grill in her mouth and pretended to be a lesbian for a few days with Sandra Bernhard.

LMAO such bullshit.

In 1994, Madonna had three huge hits, I'll Remember, Secret and Take a Bow, the latter being her longest-running #1 song on the Billboard Hot 100. Bedtime Stories was a well-received album that was nominated for a Best Pop Album Grammy award. And Madonna made her infamous appearance on David Letterman.

"Telephone" and "Bad Romance" and "Just Dance" are fun but they don't compare favorably to "Vogue," "Like a Prayer," "Take a Bow," "Express Yourself," etc.

"Born This Way" was a big hit but it's really not a very good song (accepting all things are subjective—but I do agree with Madonna that it feels like a trite ripoff of her music).

I actually like Gaga a lot more as a person based on what I see in interviews than I like Madonna. A lot more. And I appreciate Gaga's talents and I think her music is fun and it can be interesting. But her track record of music and videos doesn't compare well with Madonna's in my opinion.

I saw Gaga in concert in 2008, and I really liked her then, but she lost my interest with the concert because she played all but one of the tracks from The Fame and they sounded pretty much like they do on the album. All the creativity was in the wacky geometric and bubble outfits she wore.

R23 And Take a Bow is a great ballad. It's just a beautiful and strong song made even better by a cinematic video, and it's one of the songs that showcases Madonna's thin, warbly voice can be beautiful and warm when applied in certain ways. I think Babyface was her best producer.

I've been watching a lot of YouTube reaction videos during the pandemic and have picked up an unexpected newfound appreciation for Madonna based on young people's reactions. It's really interesting to watch them watch her videos through different eras and hear them all say, "This is Madonna?! She looks so different! She sounds great! She sounds so different! Oh wow, what is this? She was ahead of her time! I never knew Like a Prayer is a Black Lives Matter video! Thank you, Madonna! Wait, what is this? She has cornrows? Wow, this Human Nature video is DIFFERENT! What's this? Bedtime Story is so ahead of its time! It looks 90s but it also looks like now! What is this? She's...is that a matador? She looks beautiful. Her voice is beautiful! I didn't know she can sing like this! This is a great song. Why don't they make music like this now? It's all so different! Everything she did was totally different from everything else!"

R25, I really hope Madonna's music is more appreciated when she dies (hopefully soon)--she is her own worst enemy. Those videos you bring up are proof that her music is loved but as she stuck around, she alienated more and more people.

Reductive was the right word. It's the verse where she has to spell it out in case you missed the obvious point that does it.

R13, Gaga's performance is like HIgh School compared to Madonna's one.

that should say *HIgh School Musical

as i've stated before in other madonna topic threads for those who can't stand her or disappointed in her now and other negative emotions, what do you think she SHOULD do career wise to change it all around? serious replies please.

Gaga's Superbowl performance is obviously the better one.

R30, if she creates some good music again, stops the social media antics and the plastic surgery, that's a start.

Madonna endured the arrival of Paula and Kylie and Stacy Q and Britney, et. al., and was okay with it because there was enough room in the pop culture landscape for everyone. The arrival of Lady Gaga, however, has stung the most because she came when an aging Madonna was increasingly being sidelined by radio and Gaga was being hailed as some innovative artist and queer ally, when really a lot of what she does has already been done... by Madonna. Imagine being pushed aside when you're not yet ready to go.

Huge difference, Gaga is a native New Yorker and she can actually SING.

Madonna cannot sing to save her fucking life, she sounds like she needs adenoid surgery.

I'm not even a Gaga fan, but the woman can sure sing. Not only can she sing, but she can sing different genres. Didn't she sing a song from The Sound of Music on the Oscars a few years ago?

I'd love to see Madonna attempt a song without an amazing band and dancers distracting from her lack of singing ability!

Why can't Madonna fans admit the woman has a terrible voice?

I could give a shit how many albums Madonna has sold versus Gaga, who ever said the general public has good taste? Look at all the idiots who voted for Drumpf!

[quote]Madonna was also a university dropout who was a dancer.

Madonna was a Dance MAJOR at University of Michigan, but in no way was she ever a "dancer".

Not by any stretch of one's imagination.

[quote] [R23] And Take a Bow is a great ballad. It's just a beautiful and strong song made even better by a cinematic video, and it's one of the songs that showcases Madonna's thin, warbly voice can be beautiful and warm when applied in certain ways. I think Babyface was her best producer.

Madonna has slayed many a ballad. She has a talent for composing and arranging ballads to suit her modest vocal instrument. Sondheim wrote "Sooner or Later" from 'Dick Tracy' and anyone could sing that better than Madonna -- Bernadette Peters certainly does. But Madonna wrote "Something To Remember" and it works as well if not better than it would with a bigger, brassier voice. She has an ear...her success is not accidental.

R34

Madonna does not have a terrible voice.

She can be inconsistent live but when she puts in the effort, she is solid.

R36, I like Madonna's version of Sooner or Later much better than Bernadette's

Gaga falls under the category pseudo-celebrity. Most people have no idea why she's still relevant. She had a few hits, big deal. No doubt more people hate her than love her. I've always been the former.

Madonna dance years

Lady Gaga's music is boring. Madge's music is better, but you can tell she's not a great singer on a few of her songs, not as bad as Paula Abdul though.

Gaga is an artist.

Madonna is a plug-n-play pop tart.

Gaga will age better.

Madonna is fucking grotesque.

Gaga's music is boring? I keep hearing this, but how. She has covered more interesting themes/topics in her music than Madge.

Has there been a Ga Ga tranny porn yet? I think not.

R41, that's a great video. Thanks for sharing.

Madonna changed the world. Madonna changed MY LIFE.

Gaga changed nothing.

It's easy to understand. Madonna has NO talent.

R47, Gaga completely changed the game in the 2009. She was the first major artist to interact with her fans and make them just as important to the whole "pop universe" or "stan culture" as the star. Whether that's good or bad? Up for debate. But it's 100% changed how celebs are now versus before Gaga.

She also is credited with bringing EDM to the mainstream - which was everywhere post The Fame. She also changed mid 00s sugar pop (early Rihanna, Katy Perry) to the darker themes that dominated pop from 2009-15.

Also, Gaga wasn't supposed to change YOUR world! Guessing you were, what 40 in 2009? She wasn't meant for you. Ask a gay teen in 2009 who meant more: Gaga or Madonna.

End of the day, both played their part. Madonna's much more famous. Though Gaga is doing just fine. I personally like Madonna's catalogue better. But I like Gaga's musicianship, acting and general vibe more. She's a try hard, but seems really likable. Madonna is grade A cunt.

That's what I appreciate about Madoonna--she never pretended to be "just like you" or your best friend. Gag's whole "little monsters" and "love yourself' schtick was so nauseating.

The "Little Monsters" thing was so insulting and pandering. I agree, one thing about Madonna is she doesn't name her fans or pander to them.

At least with Mariah calling her fans "lambs" or "the lambily" it's a bit tongue in cheek. With Gaga it's all seriousness.

Totally R51, R50.

But now that's the way of "the fanbase". Each pop star has their version of Little Monsters. And, for the artist, it's important because those fans become rabid and they buy your shit! Gaga is guaranteed a platinum album - even if she's waning in popularity to the mainstream world - because her fanbase buy multiple copies of her albums. They have websites where they all congregate and tell war stories and host streaming parties. It's like a little subculture.

Gaga started that.

Again, whether it's a good thing or not? Eh, depends on who's asking. But to say Gaga hasn't change parts of the game is silly.

[quote]Having 2.5 hit albums in the span of 10 years? Yeah, that almost rivals Madonna's 7 or 8 huge albums over 3 decades. NOT!

And yet Gaga has sold more records in the US than Madonna, despite being decades younger. Gaga is clearly the bigger star.

MOST CERTIFIED FEMALE ARTISTS IN HISTORY IN THE US:

#1. Rihanna - 224M

#2. Taylor Swift - 190M

#3. Nicki Minaj - 129M

#4. Mariah Carey - 123M

#5. Katy Perry - 122M

#6. Lady Gaga - 104M

#7. Whitney Houston - 89M

#8. Ariana Grande - 85M

#9 Madonna - 84M

What am I, chopped liver?

Born this Way did way more than reference Express Yourself - it's a direct ripoff in both message and melody. I can't believe she wasn't sued. In any case, Gaga can actually sing but can't dance, Madonna can't sing but CAN dance, both put on good shows, Gaga can play an instrument but her songs sound alike, her videos as well, she doesn't have the versatility that Madonna has. I would give Madonna the edge only because she had enough shame and dignity in her early years to realize that if you wear revealing outfits then you have to keep a thin, fit body. I've seen too many of Gaga's rolls.

I've never thought Born This Way sounded anything like Express Yourself. Not one bit. When this controversy happened I asked several people if they heard any similarities, none, zilch, nada.

I heard it immediately R56. And so did my Mom.

R53, you are the person who constantly posts digital singles/digital album/streaming sales as if they are equivalent to physical copies. They are NOT equivalent. Most of those sales are DIGITAL SINGLES.

R52, you are right, Lady Gaga made that a thing and now we are stuck with it.

Madonna is a better performer and has better music and more iconic moments. However Gaga is the better musician hands down. Both definitely benefited from music videos (Madonna was one of the first MTV icons and Gaga was one of the last) and their fashion sense and provocateur nature. Gaga is still young, so we have to wait and see how her legacy will play out but I think she'll stick around for a while. We also have Rihanna, Taylor Swift and Beyoncé who all have impressive longevity. Swift has the high album sales but Rihanna has the fashion icon status and Beyoncé the impressive music videography.

R57 You and your whore of a mama are WRONG.

Madonna's sales are number one at 300 million albums. Taylor Swift might outsell her at some point.

Gaga is number nine with 124 million albums.

Gaga perfected the art of celebrity but Madonna is a real artist.

[quote] Madonna endured the arrival of Paula and Kylie and Stacy Q and Britney, et. al., and was okay with it because there was enough room in the pop culture landscape for everyone. The arrival of Lady Gaga, however, has stung the most because she came when an aging Madonna was increasingly being sidelined by radio and Gaga was being hailed as some innovative artist and queer ally, when really a lot of what she does has already been done... by Madonna. Imagine being pushed aside when you're not yet ready to go.

Also, Madonna was competitive with Mariah, Whitney and Janet but it wasn't anything personal. There seemed to be more diversity and room for all kinds of female artists in the 90s. You had the alternative ones like Tori Amos and Alanis and the divas like Celine Dion. Madonna did criticize the teen pop explosion as manufactured and silly in some Rolling Stone interview. But she never saw Britney or Christina as actual threats because they really weren't. Madonna also seems cool with Rihanna, Beyonce, Katy, Nicki and Taylor. Her main beef seemed to be with Lady Gaga because Gaga was being credited with stuff that Madonna originally was doing and it seemed like the media was erasing Madonna's impact.

R62, That's not the US. The fact is that Gaga has sold more records in the US than Madonna. The US is by far the largest and most important music market in the world.

lol Gaga has not sold more than Madonna in any market, anywhere. And she never will.

This always cracks me up.

Who can sing better? Gaga

Who can act better? Gaga

How would this vs. thing be a thing?

It's like saying Pia Zadora vs. Judy Garland

Gaga is objectively more talented but Madonna is the bigger star and icon. Many pop culture icons if you look deeper into them aren't the most talented people.

R49 If you're going to credit Gaga with bringing "EDM" to the mainstream, you need to also credit Madonna with bringing "techno" to the mainstream back in the 90s - both genres, which are the same thing, were already mainstream in Europe and they just hopped on the bandwagon.

R68 So?

Vs. isn't short hand for star/icon

cunt

Madonna waited until she was much older to become desperately thirsty. And once had a excellent sense of humor. That other one, well…

That's a fucking lie.

I lived through the 80's and Madonna was always PATHETICALLY thirsty.

So you just lied to try to make a point.

R71 Madonna NEVER had a sense of humor.

You're a double liar.

(Her sense of humor was SOOOOO evident during Truth of Dare)

R70 Take a chill pill or a smoke a blunt.

OP tries this EXACT troll 2x a year. Pathetically transparent.

Gaga and Madonna came from different social strata though--Gaga had a rich daddy who paid for her Manhattan apartment while she was slamming around NYC after dropping out of NYU. Madonna didn't have that kind of privilege-- she came from working-class parents in Detroit, and had to hack it by herself. I have some respect for her for that at least. The bar was higher for her. She hasn't done her "legacy" era right though, and is continuing to embarrass herself in front of the world. Time will tell if Gaga ends up in the same place.

Madonna did have a much better sense of humor in the early part of her career. Yes, Madonna was always thirsty but she didn't try to hide it and that's one of her most endearnig qualities. She is, as Camille Barbonne said, a "human torpedo". And again, she doesn't pander when she does it. Not totally related to the topic, but I always have to laugh whenever people act like Gaga being a gay "ally" is so impressive. Come on now--she just jumped on a train that got going long before she was even a thing. She became huge in 2008 and by then, gays were way more accepted than the 80s when people like Madonna and Elizabeth Taylor spoke up for gays through the AIDS crisis.

*slumming , not slamming (depending on how you look at it though, I suppose)

Madonna's father was an engineer. She grew up middle middle class. Not working class at all.

R76, agree with you overall but Madonna wasn't working class, her dad was a very successful engineer. But she had like 8 siblings so I'm sure they weren't wealthy by any means.

R79 / R80 fair enough, though, as you said, she had multiple siblings, and her dad had to raise them by himself. Still, I don't believe her dad helped her out in any way when she was beginning her career. I think she truly did start from scratch to some degree and work her way up. Gaga had a bigger safety net from the jump.

Now that it has been explained to you, you try to minimize that you have spoken out of your ass R81.

As I said, OP is a pathetic Gaga Stan who writes this EXACT SAME TROLL thread 2x a year. Why fall for it. It's cultural history fit for a jr. HS fan club. Argument and references wouldn't get a C even from a community college in a strip mall.

It's just masturbatory.

I think Gaga will have a better legacy in the end and be the bigger icon. Madge has lost a lot of good will over the last decade with her antics.

R82 what am I supposed to write? I stand corrected on Madge's upbringing. I still think it's true that Gaga had cash flow supporting her as an adult, while Madonna didn't. Gaga has admitted that her dad hooked her up until she was able to make it in music. Madonna meanwhile was taking gigs as a hat check girl and working at Dunkin Donuts. Those are the facts, at least according to them.

Nobody disputes that, but why you typing garbage like Madonna was working class? If you aren't informed, don't make shit up. This is basic Madonna bio.

Madonna's worth billions. What she should do is minimalise her look/self and hook up with younger/eccentric filmmakers and scriptwriters to produce/fund interesting films. Kind of like what Annapurna wanted to be.

Reductive.

Gaga = GAP

Madonna = CHANEL

Does it really matter anymore?

Gaga is no longer a flash in the pan. Or a fad. She peaks and valleys like all huge stars (Madonna included). Gaga (against all odds if you ask me - never thought she'd last much longer after Bad Romance) has carved out a damn great career, one that is very, very different than Madonna's.

She's one of the top 10 female pop stars of all time in terms of sales and influence. Madonna is number one, of course.

She's an Academy Award nominated actress who's headlining big time movies.

She's done EDM, jazz, country-pop, 90s dance music, straight up pop, Americana. And all were either hugely successful or successful.

She just won another Grammy. I think she has 11?

Of her generation? It's really just Taylor, Rihanna, Adele and her that have managed to stay relevant. And Rihanna and Adele don't even release music anymore, so that might change whenever they do.

Is she Madonna level fame? No. But who is?

What drugs is the person on who claimed Gaga brought EDM to the mainstream?

It matters to the stan who pens these ridiculous threads.

How can Gaga be the bigger icon when she doesn't have even half the cultural influence that Madonna had at the same age? By the time Madonna was 35 she had already done Vogue, that alone is bigger than anything Gaga has done. Let's be honest, Gaga is going towards acting for the same reason Madonna did- cause it's easier than having a pop career. All you have to do is recite some lines that someone else wrote for you and say them with feeling. Unfortunately for Madonna she was never able to do that, though she looks much better in front of the camera. Unless Gaga manages to become a movie star at the age of 35 then her acting won't amount to much as far as career is concerned.

Gaga can write music - not just slap her name on a composition or write a shitty lyric with "blue" in it - she can play instruments - she can sing live.

Madonna can wear crucifixes and used to be able to spot and ride a trend a long time ago.

Personality wise, both are insufferable.

It's reductive to compare chart and sales success of any artist today to those in the 80s and 90s. No one buys records now - including most of you pirating queens on DL!

Gaga can sing and dance around the stage in her underwear. Doesn't make her Madonna. Never will.

Lady Gaga hasn't been consistent enough to be considered in the same league as Madonna. She's been out for 13 years now and has had what, two successful records? She dominated the charts for two to three year period, and then just kind of faded away with the exceptions of Born This Way and A Star is Born, and really hasn't been seen since.

And honestly, I think Lady Gaga likes it that way.

I’m a big fan of both, I prefer Madonna overall, though Gaga has a fantastic voice, I think she doesn’t get enough credit for it because the dance music kinda obscures it.

Lady Gaga became a substance abuser a lot earlier than Madonna, if we are to believe the Madonna narrative, and I do. Gaga has been a drug mess and psychological basket case all through her career.

It's important to remember how much Madonna meant to those who grew up listening to her during the Great Depression.

R94, how can someone "fade away" when they've had four huge albums (using your own words. Her other albums were also very successful, btw) in 13 years? The last huge album coming just over two years ago. And her last two singles charted at number 5 and 1! That makes no sense.

No one is saying Gaga is as big as Madonna in terms of sales or consistency. Of course she isn't. Not even close. But it's so weird how Madonna fans can't just admit she's a very, very big star in her own right. You all act like she's Kesha or Tiffany or that Demi Lovato person or something.

So strange.

They both made dance music that the world labelled gay but it was everything but. In fact Madonna or Gaga in a club was a way to get the straights and tacky tasteless working class gays to crowd the dance floor while anyone with actual taste in dance music rolled their eyes. That said, Madonna was at least 3x more adventurous than Gaga as a producer of electronic music that really moves and managed a few decent flat out club tracts with no remixing required, mostly early in her career. Vogue is a terrible club track but it sounds fantastic anyway. Mid and later Madonna is like that. Not especially good dance music but put it on earphones and you'll tear around the city or scrub your apartment while shaking your booty a bit.

Madonna's first album is the very effective club music. Gaga never approached it. Madonna seemed to toss it off without much effort.

Madonna BURIES Gaga as a ballad artist. Madonna sang some great songs.

I think Gaga got cheated on there album last year. It's actually good, and has popular catchy dance floor burners, so the pandemic wrecked it.

I don't know if Gaga was ever that interested in dance music but Madonna understands it quite well and made half of her billion dollar fortune selling it to the hoi polloi. All Madonnas tours have been impeccably produced and "total" soundscapes and image scapes.

We need Madonna and Lady Gaga to star in a Broadway musical together as soon as possible.

Madonna and Ga GA as Daisy and Violet Hilton in Side Show.

Madonna as Phyllis and Ga Ga as Sally in Follies.

Madonna as Helen Rubenstein and Ga Ga as Elizabeth Arden in War Paint.

Or better yet, they don't even need to sing. Finally the Broadway premiere of the classic play Legends!

Madonna had incredible style while Gaga had... the meat dress. Madonna may not have Gaga's voice but Gaga's aesthetics are lacking. I went to see one of her shows and the set design, the choreography and the music were all over the place, trying to create beauty out of poorly designed chaos. I suspect Madonna would never have allowed anything, including chaos that doesn't look perfect. Gaga looks weird and dresses bizarre, and that's not the kind of approach that will help her become a legend most.

Though I absolutely love the epic cunty repartee that often erupts about this whole, now, decade-long battle... I ask: if Madonna picked up the phone and asked Gaga to do a duet (a good one, like Barbra/Donna, not like Barbra/Celine) would she do it? Furthermore, if Gaga asked Madonna to guest on a track (not a “Me Against The Music” or “4 Minutes”) would she say no? I think Madonna fears “passing the torch” (even in her 60s) and Gaga fears comparisons to (old) Madonna. Nonetheless, when and if that collaboration happens it will bolster both their careers, as long as the song is decent. And, no, that SNL joke song they did together 10 years ago doesn’t count.

R102, I think they "made up" after Gaga won the Oscar a couple of years ago. If Madonna was smart? She'd do a collab with Gaga. They gay fandom world would lose it.

R99, I agree that Madonna kills Gaga in ballads - which is strange because Gaga has a better voice. I contend Live to Tell is the best pop ballad of all time - and I'm not a big Madonna fan over all.

That said, have you heard Gaga's ballad Always Remember Us This Way from A Star Is Born? To me, it's the best song she's recorded. Lyrically, sonically, melodically. If she put together an album with songs that? Man.

I also agree that Gaga's album from last year is really good. My buddy (and huge Madonna fan) turned me onto it. It's more his speed than mine; he claims its one of the best dance pop albums in ages.

Besides having different skill sets, they are just different types of stars.

Lady Gaga did begin with a lot of stunts and shocking visuals to snag people's attention. Her producer told her she is too ugly to be a pop star and canceled her record contract, so she went around pantsless and nearly naked and obscured her face and did ridiculous things to get attention and it worked. Then she proved her talents and made people realize she's not some dumb reality show-inspired bimbo.

Now she has made herself respectable in the public eye, and if she's going to be compared with someone, Madonna is not really the best comparison. She's a pop singer who successfully launched an award-winning acting career and launched a philanthropy. Setting aside motivations, all this has elevated her to a different level of star—multiple talents and goodwill. The closest comp I can really think of is Barbra Streisand. I'm not comparing their voices or their styles, but their singer+actor+social/political activism are similar. Also Cher.

Cher has famously given Madonna sort of the opposite of backhanded compliments over the years, insulting her in interviews (She's not that talented. She's not beautiful...) and then flattering her (...but she's endlessly creative and somehow what she accomplishes is more than her talents.), and she's right.

Madonna stands apart from other stars. Her music career really is not rivaled by many people. That's just the business of it; her music itself, the quality of it, is almost unrivaled in consistent quality across so many different genres. And across all the genres and across all the personal styles, she maintains her identity and relates her unique personal perspective. If we have to compare them, then (I'm a fan of Gaga but) all I can discern as Gaga's messages are "BE ART! I AM ART!" and "be nice!" Whereas, Madonna seems to know herself very well and she has summed herself up well with "blonde ambition," "rebel" and "heart." Almost all her music boils down to those things. I don't think her music videos are rivaled by anyone's. She has always been paired with Michael Jackson in popular vernacular, but aside from Thriller and maybe a couple others, his videos like "Beat It" and "Billie Jean" were popular but they don't have any kind of artistic vision like "Like a Prayer" or "You'll See" or "Vogue" or "Bedtime Story" or even "La Isla Bonita."

Music videos are usually overlooked and usually for good reason since they generally just show simple relationship narratives and/or formation dancing with lip syncing to sell records, but I think Madonna really did turn music videos into a commercial pop art form and her videos despite being directed by different people have an incredibly coherent quality and thoughtful vision that I don't think is rivaled—which strongly suggests she is the primary visionary. After rewatching many of them this year, I've come to the conclusion that Madonna's real visionary artistic talent is envisioning and realizing her vision of her music into music videos as short films and/or political and personal proclamations. Except "Telephone," which is elaborate but which doesn't say anything, Gaga's videos are all style, with the standard dancing in formation formula, whereas Madonna's are consistently provocative and at least a dozen of them stand on their own as the best the music video form can accomplish. She should get credit for her visual artistry and not only for performance.

Gaga deserves a lot of credit for performance like Streisand and spectacle like Cher, but she doesn't seem particularly visionary.

Lady Gaga is not in the same league as Madonna. It's pointless to compare the two.

R63 Omg, spot on.

Gaga pretends to be an artist while just being a musical show pony. Madonna is a real artist while pressing being a mainstream pop singer. Gaga is a meat dress wearer and Madonna a Jean Paul Gaultier’s muse (, who hates Gaga btw). Madonna put it best - Gaga is quintessentially reductive - referential, crude, simplified, uncreative and superficial. It’s true that Gaga has the better voice but so do many other obscure singers…. I am sure many painters had better technical kills than Warhol or Haring but who cares? Madonna is usually ahead of time while Gaga is behind.

By now, Gaga doesn’t even make any effort to hide her reductiveness.

R107 That sounds so much like this older song of hers.

I have liked Gaga a lot from the beginning (although I lost interest in the jazz and country-rock album eras), but while Chromatica sounds like pop music I should like, I find it weirdly sterile and uninspired. I have knocked Madonna's at times simplistic lyrics over the years, but no matter how clumsy she can be verbally, she almost always is making a statement. Gaga's got a few songs that amount to nothing more than "fashion! Fashion!" etc., and she's at her best lyricslly when she's spewing curious nonsense about disco sticks and her playboy mouth and rah rah rah rah rah gaga ooh la la.

R108 Madonna’s Vogue came out first. Gaga’s been ripping off Madonna from the get-go.

R109 Yes, but Vogue wasn't just "fashion! Fashion!!"

Vogue was a response to the HIV/AIDS crisis. No one seems to register that it's not just a silly dance song. It was inspired by the underground LGBT subculture who had dance-offs and pose-offs as a way of escaping real life and making themselves feel confident and important since so many were homeless, sex workers, etc.

The song starts off, "Look around, everywhere you turn is heartache. It's everywhere that you go. (Just look around.) You try everything you can to escape the pain of life that you know. (Life that you know) If all else fails and you long to be something better than you are today, I know a place where you can get away. It's called the dance floor. Yes, that's what it's for."

Britney has a whole catalog of songs based on this idea of escaping to the dance floor, but that's all they're about. Madonna's song is a specific response to the ravages of the AIDS crisis, which is both empathetic and political.

Again, I like Gaga for what she is, but her fashion-based songs are always compared with Vogue, and conceptually, there is no comparison.

Here's a Gaga song:

I am so fab

Check out, I'm blonde, I'm skinny, I'm rich

And I'm a little bit of a bitch

I wanna dress you up in silk taffeta

Tailor these clothes to fit your guilt, what's your size?

This purse can hold my black card and tiara

Versace promises I will, Dolce Vita

What do you wanna wear this spring?

What do you think is the new thing?

What do you wanna wear this season?

Donatella (I'm smokin' 'em on full tank of gas)

Mi-mi-bella (I'm a rich bitch, I'm the upper class)

All of the day (I'm the pearl to your oyster, I'm a babe)

I'm gonna smoke Marlboro Lights and drink champagne

(I smoke Marlboro Reds and drink champagne)

Donatella

'Cause she walks so bad like it feels so good

Listen to her radiate, her magic

Even though she knows she's misunderstood

Voodoo

R110 such a ~deep~ analysis.

Btw, I don’t know why Gaga hasn’t gotten canceled yet. She tried to steal the spotlight by collaborating with infamous abusers R. Kelly and Terry Richardson for a song called Do what you want to my body. And the public still buys her empowerment shtick.

But this happens when you have no message, no substance, no intelligence and only go for cheapest shock value. Madonna would never aim this low.

Gaga is more compatible to Barbra Streisand. She’s an Oscar nominated actress of a movie she had a best selling soundtrack for.

r111, er....did you forget about this?

R110 is 5 years old. A dumb 5 year old at that. Vogue was not about the aids crisis, you dolt. It's just matching silly trite cliched lyrics to Shep Pettibone's beats.

[quote] Madonna had incredible style

[quote] Madonna had incredible style

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

R113 The Sex book was art, she worked with Steven Meisel, Naomi Campbell for that. Gaga‘s collaboration with R. Kelly and Terry was a calculated PR stun and nothing more. Gaga could only dream of Madinna‘s oeuvre.

Yes. Madinna and Jane Jacket and Squala Shabdul were da bombs in the late 80s.

[quote]No one is saying Gaga is as big as Madonna in terms of sales or consistency. Of course she isn't. Not even close.

Gaga is BIGGER than Madonna. She's already outsold her in the US.

Madonna has no cultural relevance today. Look at how Beyonce was able to build upon her legendary status and cultural relevance as she got older, while Madonna has become increasingly embarrassing and bitter.

R120 - You are so very correct that Madonna has become increasingly embarrassing and bitter. It seems the downslide started around the time she divorced Guy Ritchie IIRC.

Beyonce is nowhere near where Madonna was at the same age, R120.

R120 Maybe Gaga has had more streams or even more downloads than Madonna. But selling a ton of physical CD‘s is a completely different matter.

Yes we need to quit pretending that cheap digital downloads are the same as people leaving their homes to spend $15 on a cd. The latter says much more about a person's interest in owning an artist's music than the former. But let's not pretend that Madonna never relied on shock tactics like Gaga does. I mean please, she invented it. The key difference is Madonna has a vision, Gaga is just all over the place; Madonna is a visionary, Gaga is not. And not everyone can be, it takes a level of dedication most are not willing to give for obvious reasons. Madonna's personal life has suffered because of it imo, maybe Gaga doesn't want to use people or stop speaking to her family the way Madonna has/is.

R120 is the worst kind of troll. As stupid, as she is arrogant. Number of units streamed/downloaded means absolutely nothing. How much money the artist generates is the only thing that counts. TPTB have been pushing Gaga onto the public for how many years now. She has been irrelevant since that horrible album BTW and the even more horrible failure Artpop that came after.

I get that it's normal to pair the two up in this huge death match but I'm of the opinion they both can have relevance now and when they croak. Madonna remains one of the last kicking 80s icons. Love her or hate her but she keeps up her "larger than life" persona. Generations of fans will lose their shit when she dies. Gaga deserves all her success and will also be regarded as an icon of her time. I love and appreciate both of them.

R104, you summed it up really well. If you string together all the music videos of the song on The Immaculate Collection, you have one of the great musicals ever.

[quote] Gaga's got a few songs that amount to nothing more than "fashion! Fashion!" etc.

That's exactly the message I got from her video of her cover for Chics "I Want Your Love". It the equivalent of being burried by a bunch of clothes in a dressing room...if that makes any sense at all.

R120, wtf are you talking about? Beyonce isn't even 40. when Madonna was in her 40s, she released Ray of Light, Music, Confessions on a Dancefloor, etc. All were huge hits. Let's see if Beyonce can accomplish that.

R111, I bring that up all the time and I agree. She should have been cancelled for that. Can you believe she was dumb enough to do that in 2013? Of course she apologized for it like 7 years later...because, of course, she had no idea what she was doing was wrong the first time around.

Beyonce is under 40? She looks over 50!

Was R Kelly a known pervert in 2013?

R132, he was a known pervert since AT LEAST 2002. That's when the sex tape with him peeing on an underage girl was releaesd. People in Chicago knew about his behavior for years before that story came out though. Oh, and people knew he secretly married Aaliyah in the 90s when she was a teenager so yes, people definitely knew.

There were rumblings about R. Kelly back in the '90s. It was an open secret. Even when Celine recorded "I"m Your Angel" with him for her 1998 Christmas album, there was a moment of "Huh?" But Kelly was writing and producing loads of hits during this period so I think many people turned the other way (I'm not specifically saying Celine knew but then again, I don't know that). Kelly was like Harvey Weinstein -- people knew, or at least they knew he was no good.

I agree with R126. There's room in the pop universe for both Madonna and Gaga.

Nobody said their wasn't room for both. The douche nozzle OP sets up this competition based on a false equivalency. 2x a year at least.

*there

What's appalling is the obviousness and stupidity of the false equivalency and yet people fall for OP's ruse. Every fucking time.

Madonna, easily

by a long shot

and again

[quote]Yes we need to quit pretending that cheap digital downloads are the same as people leaving their homes to spend $15 on a cd. The latter says much more about a person's interest in owning an artist's music than the former.

It's so funny how the Madge stans keep insisting that unless someone goes to a record store and buy an album for it to count. I don't think they've noticed that all the record stores went out of business because nobody buys records anymore. You just have to shake your head and laugh at how out of touch they are.

And still, Ariana outselling Madonna with actual records in 2021. Oops...

I'm the one who posted all the posts of Madonna. Yet I'm not a huge champion. If you were to put someone who is more instrumental, more really musically gifted, I'd have your side, but in terms of pop music, Madonna wins. She just does. You want to put Ariana Grande up against Madonna? I don't think so, You want to put an real instrumental group up against Madonna, alright that's totally fair. There is a wide definition of popular music, but come on. That's like comparing Madonna to Led Zeppelin.

In other word, Ariana Grande sucks. Am R143

simple question: who does everyone every young popular female singer in pop praise and worship even and consider her the queen... it ain't gaga, it's madonna.. from taylor to beyonce to katy to kylie to arianna to britney and so on.

Honestly, I don't think its female performers.

Men have created the greatest art. Women have created great works, but men absolutely take it in terms of greatness.

What YOU fail to understand R142 is that if people back then were able to download Madonna's records or singles instead of having to get off their butts and fork over WAY more money for her music, then her sales would increase infinitely. The fact that people were willing to pay significantly more money and put in more work to actually purchase her music says it all. Why you don't get this, I cannot understand.

[quote]The Sex book was art,

"Art" photos?

HA! Nudies! That's what they were. Nudies!

I still think the greatest troll ever was Gaga ripping off some notes from PAPA DON'T PREACH for PERFECT ILLUSION. Put Madonna in a weird place--a lawsuit would've reminded everyone she had stolen a different part of PAPA DON'T PREACH from SUGAR DONT BITE and had to settle the lawsuit and change writing credits on that song.

[quote]Put Madonna in a weird place--a lawsuit would've reminded everyone she had stolen a different part of PAPA DON'T PREACH from SUGAR DONT BITE and had to settle the lawsuit and change writing credits on that song.

Except that Brian Elliot wrote the music, not her.

Lady Fuckface loses again.

Madonna is a sociopath.

Gaga has a heart

Gaga disqualified forever for that pathetic David Bowie tribute that showed just how little she even understood about him.

That might be, R152, but Madonna created her own path. I don't like everything she's done, but I respect what she's done.

Let's see...Gaga has real vocal talent

Madonna does not

Madonna copied just about everyone under the sun so it's laughable that she was ever upset about Gaga copying her

gaga sucks.

Gaga wins.

R131 Beyoncé looks like a man in drag.

R132 Absolutely, sweetie. Collaborating with both R. Kelly AND Terry Richardson in song with the name Do what you want to my body shows how calculating, vile, ruthless and cheap Gaga is. It was no coincidence her management didn’t greenlight this in this end.

R143 Ariana is a few leagues below Gaga or even Beyoncé and Taylor Swift. Ariana has ZERO cultural relevance except within her teenage fandom and for singing catchy songs…She is like Shawn Mendes without the gay and with better singing talent or Christina Aguilera without the nasty personality…In retrospective , they are going to be be very irrelevant.

Someone posted a chart upthread showing Gaga with more certified sales or what have you... but isn't there some kind of known issue that WB refuses to properly certify/re-ceritfy Madonna's catalog?

“Those two old broads? I wouldn’t give you a dime.”

They're both over, irrelevant, ego-maniac, lard-ass druggies.

Thank you, NEXT!

Madonna's music is pretty awful and shallow compared to Gaga's. Born This Way, The Fame Monster, Chromatica shit on Madonna's boring and stale ass '80s tunes.

^^^It must be opposite day. Born this Way is some deep song? HAHAHA! Please She probably thought to herself "well, Madonna has the gays, so who can I pander too? Trans? TRANS!".

"I've been watching alot of youtube reaction videos..."

I think we just read the first line of R25s suicide note.

R164, Born This Way (the album) you stupid cunt

I mean, Gaga is an Oscar nominated actress. Madonna derided as one of the worst.

r145, maybe it started with the Queen of Soul, Aretha Franklin.

The thing with Madonna is she ruined her own legacy. She had decades of being on top. She refused to age gracefully and her desperate attempts to be relevant on social media were a turn off for many, including any generation aged 33 and below. She was a joke. And social media exposed her for the very unlikable person she actually is.

If she kept her trap shut and quit trying to show her geriatric snooch in our collective faces she would still be a living legend. She's just a tired old drunk/druggie now. Even Crawford hung up the booze and the theatrics when she realized the show was over.

She was only a living legend to her fans and those sad fuckers are aging out fast. No one cares for that oldster demographic.

R169, I agree. She could be like Tina Turner or Cher. Adding to their legacy while still keeping that cool factor that made them uniquely "them" as they age. Madonna had/has that uniqueness in spades. She SHOULD be the coolest sixty something on the planet. But she's just...not.

r171, after Music, it's like she's been doing her life backwards. At least superficially, she did seem more mature in the late 90s through the mid 00s. Then by the end of the 00s, she did Hard Candy and divorced Guy and everything went to the shitter.

Who divorced whom?

R173, guy divorced her actually....which is what pushed her over the edge. I think she always assumed she would married happily with children until death. And that crushed her. And the fact that Rocco can't stand her really added to that.

Was Paula Abdul bigger than Madonna at one point? She was racking up #1 songs faster than Madonna, which surprises me. Didn't Madonna hate Paula?

Why did Paula's career end so abruptly after all the success she had? I don't get it.

In 1989, Paula gave Madonna a run for her money. I wouldn't say she was bigger than Madonna but Forever Your Girl was huge.

Paula's career declined for a number of reasons - changing music landscape, the lawsuit from a background singer who said Paula's voice was blended with hers, the disastrous VMA performance of Vibeology.

R175 Paula had no substance. She was only a flavor-of-the-month singer, known for catchy but trivial songs like Katy Perry. She didn’t ‚‘reinvent herself‘ and had no message that sticks. Not surprising to me that her fans just moved on when times changed. I hope the same will happen to big-titted Katy Perry btw. Say what you want about Madonna and her antics but she knows exactly what she’s doing in order not to be forgotten.

R175 Wow, Madonna looks really hot in that photo from the tweet.

Madonna used to be good at reading the room. She had a knack for picking good songs, good producers, and the right sounds.

She also took sound career advice by experienced and reasonable people. Back in the day, she had people like Freddy DeMann and Liz Rosenberg. I'm sure they didn't come cheap but Madonna knew she had to have them around. When she went through the Sex controversy, she was able to rebound and come back strong (Bedtime Stories/Evita/Ray of LIght). But back then she had the good sense (and advice from her manager and publicist) to regroup.

Now she has Guy Oseary who doesn't give a shit about her, her music or her legacy. And Madonna no longer has the good smarts to get her shit together.

Yes, Madonna WAS extremely intelligent. It seems that went out the door with the other Guy, the one she married.

R176, Katy Perry is today's Paula Abdul. At one point, she was dominating the singles chart as much as Rihanna and MORE than Lady Gaga was. Now, she's washed up. History will look at her music the same way it looks at Paula Abdul's.

Gaga is growing up with her audience. That isn’t “boring”, it is smart. Madonna just aged into a pathetic middle aged woman still desperately trying to look twenty....fast forward to now, where she is an old hag living in delusion.

I wouldn't call Chromatica "growing up".

Do you think Madonna will ever do another big world tour? Not a silly theater tour like she did with Madame X, but a big arena tour. Cher still tours.

I totally agree with the Katy Perry/Paula Abdul comparisons. Btw, Abdul's big years were when I was in 5th and 6th grades. She was definitely bigger than Madonna for us! That ended the second we got to junior high, however. Back to Madonna we all went.

R183, have you listened to Chromatica? It's really good. And I'm not a dance guy. The Gaga I love is A Star is Born. But damn if Chromatica has almost zero skips. It's just a really solid album.

I don't know if Madonna will have another big tour.

She has pissed off a lot of people including longtime fans with her shitty behaviour on her last two tours. Especially the coming on at midnight-type of diva shit. Plus, all the plastic surgery on her face and ass have slowed her down, and the grills have slurred her speech. It's painful trying to watch her croak out a song or one of her unfunny jokes.

Also, with the pandemic, who knows when those type of arena tours will happen again? Madonna is 62. She might be 65 by the time huge tours can start up again.

This is solely personal taste and not a "this person is better than that person" comment.

From Hard Candy through MDNA, I thought Madonna's quality took a sudden hit. She did seem to have hit that creative wall and I assumed because of her age that she'd probably wind down. But I like Rebel Heart a lot. I think the concept is exactly right and it made me realize that consistently throughout her career, that has been her dual perspective: romantic songs and rebellious songs. And the music is well produced. Her voice has lost some resonance as happens withmany older singers, and the production helps with that. I also like Madame X as an experimental, development project, although the music doesn't hold up against her good to great music. It's more interesting than it is a great listen.

I liked Lady Gaga's earliest albums best. I bought into a dance-pop singer and the rebranding as a country singer (I never listen to country.) and as a jazz singer was interesting and admirable in the sense of an artist doing something versatile and following her muses, but the music did not appeal to me. I did buy Chromatica and I do think it's a well-produced pop album, but it also never really sunk its teeth into me. "Rain on Me" etc. sound fine but nothing has has the effect of Poker Face, Alejandro, Bad Romance, Just Dance, etc. I do admire her imagination and creativity, but as of now, her music doesn't have much of an appeal to me, whereas Madonna's recent couple of albums do still appeal to me even though they don't measure up to her peak decades.

But I learned a lesson from my favorite artist, Tori Amos: When someone has real talent, never count them out. Tori was never a mainstream pop star, but for those who love her music, they LOVE her music. Or they did until the mid-2000s when her (always changing) music lost some of its magic. At the same time, she was raising a daughter, dealing with aging parents and later would make it clear she had a hard time dealing with her own aging. But the albums she made during this period had a few gems and it turns out they were gestational intermediary albums. She later has made some of the best music of her career, and influences of the in-between work can be heard. Most people assumed she had peaked and then lost it, but she just had a slump. She's a consummate musician and writer, and so she didn't give up from the depression of being less successful during those years.

I learned not to count people out. Madonna has made some visionary statements and videos in the past and could do it again. Gaga may be capable of something profound as she continues to develop. We don't know. Personally, I care about the quality and appeal of music and not sales and charts. I wouldn't care of Gaga fell off the pop culture radar and she made great obscure music. I will keep an eye on her career just in case. But as disciplined as she clearly is, I wish she would work a bit on her lyricism and find less trite ways to express her ideas. A lot of what she sings is platitudes and I guess that works for pop culture appeal but it does get boring.

There's hope for touring for Madonna.....if Grace Jones is doing this at 68 (also notorious for tardy starts at her performances), she can too:

[quote] The old succubus and the new succubus are going to fight over who the pied piper for Satan is until daddy Hades calls them home. Both are disgusting twats.

I don’t know if I agree with this but it made me laugh so I gave it a thumbs up.

So true

I actually find that Gaga's music never really reaches the level of "as interesting as it ought to be", if that makes sense. When she first started out, songs like "Just Dance" and "Poker Face" did seem fresh and interesting, like stuff we weren't used to hearing at the time, (even if we're just talking about the synths she used), but she seemed to lose that freshness (in my opinion) pretty quickly, and came across as quirky just for the sake of it, rather than it being her true personality. Even The Fame Monster had songs like Alejandro, which sounded like a cheap ripoff of Ace of Base.

I'm not saying this to bash her, or because I am stanning Madonna at all, just that I think the promise of Gaga was more interesting than what ended up happening. As others have said, I think she became so overexposed that all mystery was gone.

R191, have you checked out songs on A Star is Born? Always Remember Us This Way and Is That Alright? are absolutely beautiful ballads. Just her and a piano and her voice toned down a bit. Country pop or Americana at its finest.

I really like Madonna, but she could never pull those songs off.

I sometimes wonder if Gaga is TOO involved with her albums. She is a very gifted pianist, but that doesn't mean she's a great songwriter. Or lyricist, even though she has a wonderful, versatile voice.

I wonder if she did more albums like ASIB (where bigger people made the final decisions) where her simple musicianship and singing prowess were on display, but others did the rest in terms of songwriting - if those projects wouldn't be more successful. I think that album is nearing 10 million SPS. So, there is still a big market for her work.

[quote] I sometimes wonder if Gaga is TOO involved with her albums. She is a very gifted pianist, but that doesn't mean she's a great songwriter. Or lyricist, even though she has a wonderful, versatile voice.

[quote]I wonder if she did more albums like ASIB (where bigger people made the final decisions) where her simple musicianship and singing prowess were on display, but others did the rest in terms of songwriting - if those projects wouldn't be more successful.

This is an interesting point. I've often found Gaga struggles to make her intentions with her songwriting clear. You may be on to something! (I've not checked out those songs, but I should!)

R193 here's Always Remember Us This Way.

It's my favorite Gaga song. By a mile.

Madonna almost always uses an elementary vocabulary, but her ideas over the years have been interesting at times. She has done totally trite confections like "True Blue" that say nothing at all and are enjoyable, but she's also done a range of more thoughtful and dynamic music ideas-wise.

Gaga's word choice is a lot more interesting, but she frankly doesn't seem to have much to say that's very interesting, at least in her music. I admire how well spoken she is in conversation. Her songwriting is curiously limited, though.

On the line level, Gaga's "I wanna take a ride on your disco stick" and "I need to shut my playboy mouth" etc. are more interesting than what Madonna gives us. With a few exceptions like Bedtime Story, written by Bjork, Madonna's lyrics are always straightforward and don't have a curiosity factor—but the ideas, especially once enriched by her videos' concepts, are worth consideration. Like a Prayer, Papa Don't Preach, Take a Bow, etc., become rich experiences when Madonna's lyrics and videos come together. Just Dance is just dancing, Alejandro is just formation dancing, Telephone is just a spectacle of a road trip with some visual delights plus formation dancing. There just isn't a lot going on.

I like a lot of Gaga's music because it's so hooky. But it's not honest to say she has much to say. Her best-known "idea song" is Born This Way. Personally, it's among my least favorite of her songs soundwise, and lyrically, it's nothing but platitudes. I appreciate the spirit of it, I do. But the lyrics sound like something printed on a tea towel sold in a tourism shop, and they could translate directly into the next Stewart Smalley script. Although Madonna has the vocabulary of a third grader, she has a more sophisticated means of expressing herself beyond those basic words.

It's a little odd that most of Gaga's videos are anchored by formation group dancing since she's not a natural at it. IMO she comes across a but robotically and doesn't take very naturally to choreography as Madonna does, and while Madonna is a professional dancer, she has chosen in many of her videos to express herself differently. Gaga has some career defining music videos, but she doesn't have any that are worth analyzing for their ideas and most of Madonna's are worth analysis and reveal a lot of interesting and provocative thought when they are analyzed. At least for me.

All that said, Gaga indisputably has an accomplished and superior vocal ability and she sings very well and expressively. I am always impressed by singers with beautiful or powerful vocal instruments who choose to use their voices in non-beautiful and non-belting ways for the sake of expression and dynamism and she does this. Her belting sounds a lot like Christina Aguilera's and yet is more impressive to me because Gaga has so much more discretion and uses this ability judiciously instead of constantly. Aguilera's voice overall is much stronger but I can't stand to listen to her because she always oversings, and I've never had that problem with Gaga. Her voice sounds less than pretty much of the time and part of the joy of listening to her is waiting for her to employ the beauty or power of her voice, which she does wisely and not in a showoffy way in her recorded songs.

I appreciate both of them. I have bought most of the albums of both of them. Gaga lost my interest after a while because she has changed her sound often but she hasn't really engaged my mind; whereas, Madonna often changes her sound and also appeals to my curiosity. Her newer songs have lost luster but her concepts remain interestingly executed. Rebel Heart actually reframed for me how I look at her whole career—she said every one of her songs are either romantic or rebellious, and damned if they aren't—and Madame X is self-consciously weird and pretentious and yet it is a worthwhile curiosity. Madonna's got some trademark mortifying lyrics on that album, just totally clumsy writing, but that in and of itself is actually more interesting and humanizing to me than trite pronouncements like "Don't be a drag!/Just be a queen!" Madonna is just a more interesting person, and Gaga is a pretty nice person and an extremely talented vocalist.

When pop stars start to believe in their own hype and consider themselves "artists" versus entertainers, that's when they become more boring. That happened to Gaga from Born this Way onwards.

I came to new york with a dollar and a dream! - Madonna, creating a false narrative. Her fucking brother already lived there.

Gaga was smart with her persona and "The Fame" concept, but after that her ideas dried up and she has been struggling ever since. A Star Is Born was a great project for her, since it was a ready concept to her work with.

Madonna, on the other hand, spent most of her career knowing where to go sonically and aesthetically, that's why she has a strong discography. Of course, her ideas eventually dried up too and now she's an embarrassment, but she had an unusually long run. I have to say that Kylie, with her obvious limitations, became a much better example of an active older popstar.

Yeah, but Kylie is getting a bit long in the tooth to keep putting out that cooing, sex kitten sound.

R195/R196, Chromatica is the album that solidified Gaga for me. It goes beyond Gaga to explore the universal human experience, which is why I love it. It's the best singing and best writing of her career and I think her best album overall, or at least her most cohesive.

As great as Chromatica is, I'm waiting for Gaga to deliver something alternative/outside of pop music.

And R196, what you said about Gaga's voice is true and why she'll go down as one of the great singers. She sings to express an emotion, not to "sound pretty" or to show off. Her voice can get very rough and gritty at times which I love. I'd love to hear her singing true rock songs at some point.

Intro] 'Cause I used to live In a fuzzy dream And I wanted to be Like all the pretty people

[Verse 1] I'm so stupid 'Cause I used to live In a fuzzy dream And I used to believe In the pretty pictures That were all around me But now I know for sure That I was stupid

[Chorus] Please don't try to tempt me It was just greed And it won't protect me Don't want my dreams Adding up to nothing I was just looking for Everybody's looking for something

[Verse 2] I'm so stupid 'Cause I used to live In a tiny bubble And I wanted to be Like all the pretty people That were all around me But now I know for sure That I was stupid Stupider than stupid Stupider than stupid Stupider than stupid

R195 You seem to be stuck the 80‘s just like Gaga

R203 Madonna has some terrible, terrible lyrics. Her word choices often are embarrassing. Her songs + videos together are thoughtful. I think of her more as a visual artist because she expresses herself best visually. She has managed to be more than the sum of her parts throughout her career.

Lady Gaga is multitalented but I don't see the parts adding up to something greater. As someone mentioned, she was most interesting when she was doing Warhol-inspired fame-as-pop-art but then she reinvented herself in one direction as an actor, in another as a country, no, jazz, no, showtunes singer then, no, back to pop. Which is all fine. There's nothing wrong with it but it doesn't feel like it's part of a creative vision, just dabbling in different genres of performance.

I think Gaga is smart and well spoken and I like her "be nice" messages. Compared with Madonna, whose nature seems mean, I like Gaga so much more as a person. I just feel like, as artists, I can think about Madonna and have a sense of her whole career's vision and her musical/visual expressions as a series of artistic expression, and when I think of Gaga, I see more of a disparate series of pastiches, more imitations of artists she admires than someone with a clear personal vision.

R205, I find Gaga 10x more contrived than Madonna. And that Little Monsters and "love yourself" BS is exactly why. Yes, Madonna has some embarassing lyrics but also some very good, simple ones. Gaga tried so many things to see what would stick--it was obvious that her persona during the Born This Way era turned off a lot of people and she was constantly trying to recapture the kind of fame she got with The Fame/Fame Monster.

Alpha and Omega

Gags gets in her own way too often trying to prove what an "artiste" she is.

R208, she suffers the same fate as many pop stars and entertainers before her--how to be an artist without being pretentious. She really struggles with that. But she survives, I guess.

All Hail Madonna