Songwriters Sign Letter Calling for Artists to Stop Demanding Credit for Songs They Didn’t Write

Paging Beyonce

[...]

Paging Harry Styles

Yeah, I would love to see artists sing their own shit. Every song should be hilarious.

Amateurs.

Good for them

Why doesn't copyright law protect their music?

Calling Madonna

When Led Zeppelin was sued about "Babe, I'm Gonna Leave You" they cut themselves in for songwriting credit though they had no hand in writing it. It was just part of the settlement.

Mariah Carey must be terrified right now.

This is such an old phenomenon. People in the industry have been stealing work and taking credit since forever. Beyoncé, Madonna and Led Zeppelin are the three most obvious cases of thievery with all the lawsuits they have. I think that's why copyright laws have it now that artists have list everyone in the recording room and even list artists/songwriters from music they sample. In the past, it would have been listed under the name of the band/group even if only one member wrote it.

Beyonce is definitely the most notable case in the last 10-15 years. Im sure she was the major motivation behind this.

R10: Mariah is probably about the only artist NOT terrified by this. She has enough songs without any co-writers for it to be obvious she’s a genuine songwriter.

Yeah Mariah does write a large amount of her material. Many people don't know that though and will group in her with other manufactured pop stars. Mariah's looks and relationship with Mottolla helped her career get started but she stayed around a long time because she had talent and could plan and create her own albums.

Beyoncé taking credit is so unnecessary too. There's nothing wrong with just being a singer/performer. Tina Turner, Whitney Houston, Aretha Franklin, Elvis Presley and Billie Holliday weren't songwriters either but they are respected. They were able to interpret a song with their unique vocals and put on a show. Bey is just desperate to been as an authentic artist and highly regarded but her work still lacks the substance and enduring quality even with the stolen credits. She needs to embrace the fact she is a pop star who is better off doing upbeat dance tunes and romantic ballads and let her sister Solange be the artist.

Look at all of the songs that Elvis Presley is credited on as a co-writer. He never wrote a note.

This kind of shit is RAMPANT. I'm glad it's being called out.

The ongoing problem should've gotten more traction back when Pharrell and Robin Thicke were sued by Marvin Gaye's estate for the song Blurred Lines.

During a deposition, Robin Thicke admitted he really didn't have any hand in writing the song even though he demanded partial credit. And Pharrell gave Thicke credit because, he said, it's "customary." Thicke got 20% of publishing royalties on the song until the truth came out. It's an old school bullshit setup.

Where the fuck is ASCAP in all this? Do the songwriters give their rights away voluntarily?

Leo Sayer and his producer stole publishing and writing credit for "You make me feel like dancing" from Ray Parker Jr

So yeah this has been going on forever. But I kinda get where the artist is coming from. IF the artist didn't make it a hit it wouldn't sell. If say Carol Channing sang "Rock Your baby" I don't think it would have been as big of a hit. And all of these revenue streams that were mentioned didn't really exist until fairly recently.

R20 "Rock Your Baby", the George McCrae hit? (written by KC?) George McCrae didn't get publishing rights for that song.

How do you "steal" a song? It has to be registered with the name of the writer(s), doesn't it?

R21, Big name singers have big name legal teams. They just amend the songwriting credits if it's already registered.

Duke Ellington used to buy songs from struggling songwriters for pennies during the depression, and put his name on them.

I heard "Satin Doll" was actually written by Mitchell Parish ("Deep Purple").

Dolly told Elvis to fuck off when he wanted publishing to record, And I Will Always Love You.

She canceled the recording session.

R24 Yeah, she said it was one of the most difficult decisions she ever made, being a new artist and turning down the king of rock & roll, but she knew how important her publishing rights were.

So...am I to understand that Elvis could have "stolen" the song if he'd wanted to? She obviously had some choice in the matter.

[quote]Do the songwriters give their rights away voluntarily?

R19, it's semi-extortion. The Big Name Singer (probably via legal team) says to the writer(s), if you want Big Name Singer to do your song, you're going to have to give up some writing percentages.

The writers acquiesce because they'd rather have their song recorded/released for sure than have to shop it around more and maybe get no bites - and also to stay in "insiders" good graces.

So, no. Not "technically" voluntarily.

I think it's a shame that Mariah and Dolly don't get enough credit for their song writing abilities; it puts them head and shoulders above a lot of their contemporaries. It's not like not writing songs is a barrier to success - look at Céline Dion! One of the biggest stars in the world and she's always been very humble and publicly grateful to her song writers.

I heard from some place that Adele didn't write the album 21, at least she didn't write "someone like you".

R27 I think Dolly gets plenty of credit for her songwriting abilities. Everybody knows she wrote "I will always love you", "9 to 5", "coat of many colors", etc.

Oh look, wet-ass pussy was written by a bunch of guys.

R30 I think Cardi B write WAP for her part at least. You can tell it is written by someone of her calibre from the lack of rhythm, the poor word choice and the lack of imagination.

I dont be no theef. I be rote all my song!

Madonna, Madonna, Madonna

Mariah does not share the spotlight. She paid off the real writers so she gets solo credit

I believe Mariah writes her own lyrics.

Wasn't there a court case with a song writer claiming one of Mariah's songs was his? He wanted to be paid off, but when Mariah revealed her notebook, it proved she wrote the lyrics years before and the case was thrown out.

She was sued 3 times over "Hero".

One of the very first interviews I read with Mariah Carey was a short blurb in US magazine or People when she first hit it big with Vision of Love (I’m an old). Anyhoots, what stuck with me is she was asked (eyeroll) about being described as a white Whitney Houston, and saucy little Mariah replied something like, “first I’m not white, and second, I write MY songs”.

That stuck with me, as she made the claim very early in what has proven to be a long career. I believe she writes her stuff.

This guy named Selletti is responsible for the lawsuits re Hero. He lost all his cases against Carey.

"In court, Carey provided evidence to her innocence, in the form of a dated lyrical and music notebook, with conceptual info on the song dated back to November 20, 1992, prior to Selletti's meeting with Stone.[17] Additionally, Carey stated the fact that she had originally written it for the film Hero alongside Afanasieff, making their connection or the involvement of his material impossible. Judge Denny Chin found Carey innocent, and ordered Selletti to pay her a fine"

My dad always used to say that Irving Berlin has a talented black kid chained up in a basement churning out songs.

[quote]Beyoncé taking credit is so unnecessary too.

Remember when DREAMGIRLS was released and was nominated for 3 Best Song Oscars? One of them "Listen" was credited to four people (Scott Culler, Henry Krieger, Anne Preven, Beyonce), but only Culler, Krieger, and Preven received the nomination. This got people wondering what exactly was Beyonce's contribution.

Thanks for the extra information, R39. I think that's pretty definitive!

Feel free to hate on Madonna but all the men she's worked with over the years have commented on how involved she is in the songwriting. Pat Leonard wrote the backing track for Live To Tell, Madonna wrote the lyrics and worked on the melodies.

She is nothing like the "change a word, take a third" artists this is aimed at.

And didn't Linda Perry call out Gaga for claiming credit on Diane Warren's Until It Happens To You? Not a great song by anyone's standards but it got Gaga an Oscar nomination.

R40, your father was not wrong. Allegedly, Berlin used his position in ASCAP to rip off other composers.

Truly disgraceful that these "artists" are forcing songwriters to give up part of the miniscule royalties they get just to sate the singer's ego. Even more so given how many different revenue streams these singer's have - tours, merchandise, etc.

The songwriters should threaten to start revealing just how uninvolved some of these singers are. I bet that would get a deal done quickly.

R45, and be sued for breach of contract? You know the agreement has a non-disclosure clause.

[quote]Feel free to hate on Madonna but all the men she's worked with over the years have commented on how involved she is in the songwriting. Pat Leonard wrote the backing track for Live To Tell, Madonna wrote the lyrics and worked on the melodies.

Because she's paid them to say so.

[quote]Because she's paid them to say so.

Stephen Bray, Patrick Leonard, Shep Pettibone, Dallas Austin, Babyface, William Orbit, Rick Nowels, Mirwais, Stuart Price, Pharrell, Justin Timberlake, Martin Solveig.

They all lied about their songwriting input.

Or maybe she's just a great songwriter, like Dolly Parton and Mariah?

Great thread.

I never really gave much thought to the songwriters until I watched the TV series "Nashville" a few years ago (it started out really well, then tanked miserably). I love how they focused a lot of their storylines on the songwriters. It definitely gave me a great appreciation of those that "write the songs that make the whole world sing".

I’m not a musician myself, but I guess songwriters are probably the only people (apart from the execs) in the music biz who are not expendable and don’t have an expiration date, so there’s a lot of envy involved.

[...]

I read a story a while ago about payola in the music industry and how radio DJs would demand songwriting credit just to play the song. They got rich, the artists got screwed over and made no money from their own hit songs. Fucked up.

I remember reading about Celine Dion and her husband attempting this type of extortion of songwriters back in the late 90's/early 00's.

They didn't demand songwriting credit, though. Probably because they realized that nobody in their right mind would have believed that Celine Dion was capable of actually writing a song.

Instead, they focused on the publishing royalties. As in, "give us 20% of the publishing, and we'll put your song on the album, and you'll make some money. If you don't, we won't use it, and you won't make anything."

I think they got away with it at first, but the top songwriters eventually started refusing. Rather than just accepting the songwriters' terms and recording the great songs anyway, they started using a lot of mediocre songs by lesser-known writers, thinking Celine's shit couldn't possibly stink, and the public would buy anything she sang. It's believed to be the one of the reasons she went from selling 10-11 million in the U.S, to 3 million, then to 1 million in a relatively short period of time.

Marc Anthony did similar shit in the salsa genre, insisting on songwriting credit for songs he didn't write. His argument was that he was writing the "soneo" portion (most songs in salsa are structured verse/chorus/verse/chorus, then for the last half there is a vocal improvisation, sort of similar to a freestyle in rap, called the "soneo"). Before this, no singer had ever considered the soneo to actually be something that was worth a songwriting credit. It was seen as similar to somebody improvising a guitar solo in the studio and then insisting that he "wrote" that part of the song, and should be credited. The ability to improvise like this was considered an important skill for a salsa singer, and anybody who couldn't do it was automatically thought of as B-list. And it was always obvious who was good at it and who wasn't. By insisting on writing credit for the soneo, Marc Anthony was pretty much admitting that he couldn't improvise, and had to actually sit down and write it. But he got away with it, because reggaeton had decimated the salsa market, and there were only a handful of stars left capable of selling in huge numbers, and he was at the very top of that short list.

[...]

Beyonce can't write a grocery list, let alone a song.

Beyoncé named her kid Blue Ivy. That alone tells us she has no creative talent for lyrics.

I think it's easier now for songwriters to make their names known again. There aren't many superstars like there used to be. People like Beyoncé, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber and Katy Perry are probably the last of the last. In the past it was completely believable that someone like Elvis, Michael Jackson, Madonna, Celine, various rock bands could use bullying tactics to get songwriting credit or publishing rights just off of their star power alone. The internet helped destroy a lot of glamour and mystery behind famous artists and producers and songwriters are getting more of a voice as a result. It's crazy though to think that through the 40s to 70s, songwriters were highly regarded. Everyone knew Motown had songwriters who wrote many of the greatest hits.

Mariah Carey cannot be compared to the great Dolly Parton in terms of songwriting. Mariah always had more talented songwriters working with her like Walter Whatshisname. He recently called her out on claiming she wrote that Christmas crap song on her own as a teenager.

Taylor Swift is more compatible. She writes a lot of stuff on her own.

Mariah has always been honest about her songwriting. She works with a partner who is better at piano than she is. First Ben Margoles (who ripped her off majorly) and then Walter for years.

She writes all the lyrics, most of the melodies, and the other guy helps flesh out the chord patterns. All her songs clearly state the co writers. She never hides that.

R52 Payola involved radio DJs, program directors, or music directors receiving a bribe to play a record. It has nothing to do with songwriting credits.

As a former radio program Director and music director, I had to sign a monthly affidavit swearing I never received any payola money or bribes to play a record.

r60, I guess you are not familiar with radio DJ Alan Freed because that is exactly what he did and it was a huge scandal back then.

[quote]Mariah has always been honest about her songwriting. She works with a partner who is better at piano than she is. First Ben Margoles (who ripped her off majorly) and then Walter for years. She writes all the lyrics, most of the melodies, and the other guy helps flesh out the chord patterns. All her songs clearly state the co writers. She never hides that.

Some people on this thread would argue that Bernie Taupin or Hal David aren't songwriters because they only write the lyrics, or Elton John or Burt Bacharach aren't songwriters because they only write the music.

Mariah Carey writes her own songs, with other people. Madonna writes her own songs, with other people. Taylor Swift writes her own songs, with other people. All three also produce the songs with other producers, often the same person who wrote the song. I don't know what it is about female artists that makes some people think they are incapable of participating in their own creative process.

R61 DJ Alan Freed came from an era when DJ’s could pick their own records to play. That was the 40’s and 50’s and early 60’s. Freed was also a television personality. DJ’s had power back then in the early days of radio. That power doesn’t exist today.

Mariah Carey writes great melody, you can tell she wrote them herself, so many of her hit songs are perfect for piano, you know it's the same person behind the nice melody.

Taylor Swift not only wrote her own songs, she also wrote for others, remember the fake name she used for Calvin Harris' hit single - This Is What You Came For. And in 2017 she wrote "Better Man" for the country group Little Big Town and won the song of the year at CMA award, and she was also nominated for best country song at Grammy, she is the sole songwriter here, that is the real talent!

r21 the George McCrae things was a joke about how singers are instrumental in the success of a song. As far as stealing a song. That's not hard at all. In fact that's what this whole thread is about.

This really isn't about ego at all, as many have mention here. It's purely about money/business. Songwriters/publishing always recieve their royalty off the top. Performers who "arrange" songwriting credits are just taking a bigger bite out the pie. Publishers are paid for the use of a song & songwriters get paid in perpetuity. Beyonce didn't get to be the huge earner she is today because she's a good performer. She's where she is today because she's a shrewd business woman...or has surrounded herself with people who are, which is as shrewd as knowing how to multiply your money.

Agreed, R66. Post-Napster, artists can no longer count on sales or concerts alone for significant revenue, it's all about publishing. Even back in the '70s, Linda Ronstadt could have probably pressured songwriters to cut her in on publishing, but she never did and had to rely on nonstop touring for money--hence her unfortunate performances in Apartheid South Africa in '83.

R53 It was none other than Carole King who refused to fall for that scam by that Quebecois whore and her fat grifting husband:

[quote] Dion and her husband/manager, René Angelil, asked the writers of all the songs submitted to them for up to 20 percent of the publishing money. Some writers whose songs had been on previous Dion albums declined, and their songs were not used. But six songs by lesser-known writers, or writers without clout in the music industry, succumbed to Dion's demands. In one case — a song called "The Reason," co-written by Carole King, Mark Hudson and Greg Wells — the last two writers agreed to Dion's terms but were vetoed at the last minute by the veteran King, who refused to give in. The song was still included on the album but not used — as it had been advertised prior to release — as the album's title. King's objections, however, are not reflected on the album's credits: Dion's music-publishing company, Duffield Music, is still listed as the co-publisher of "The Reason." Paul Farberman, a spokesman for Celine Dion, says that will be corrected in future printings of the album. King's manager, Lorna Guess, says, "They asked, and we said no. We never give publishing away." Guess says that King, who co-writes with many artists, has "never" been asked to do such a thing in the past by anyone.

So if Carole King *had* signed over the publishing to Céliné and Réné Angélil, would Céliné and Réné Angélil have made money from when Carole recorded the song herself on Love Makes The World?

If so that makes Céliné and Réné Angélil very unpleasant people.

As an aside I always wondered who came up with the rhyming couplet "emotional/love potion-al" on Carole's I Wasn't Gonna Fall In Love - Carole Bayer Sager or Carole King herself.

[quote]Diane Warren is probably the most powerful songwriter for hire in the entire industry. You think she'd be forced out of credit and royalties against her will? Even Beyonce ('I Was Here') couldn't make her do that. Linda Perry was just bitter because she had a song in contention that year and got snubbed across the board.

IIRC, Diane Warren had legal issues in the 80s regarding not getting royalties regarding songs she wrote. So that may explain why she wouldn't allow anyone these days to force her out out of credits and royalties.

I hope these writers prevail in getting sole ownership and credit for their work. I've always thought taking publishing credit for something you had no hand in creating is a really shitty practice.

None other than Paul Simon once stole a song from up-and-coming Los Lobos, just because he could.

"After a few days of uncomfortable interaction, (Los Lobos member Steve) Berlin says that David Hidalgo began playing what would become 'The Myth of Fingerprints,' a track they were preparing for their next record. He explains, "We'd been waiting around for two days for Paul to come up with something, but he had nothing. So to have something to do, we just started playing what we thought was our song, when Paul suddenly says, 'Hey that's cool. What is that?' and we said, 'Oh, it's a song we've been working on.'"

Berlin says Simon asked if they could work on it, and the band agreed thinking that it would help get the sessions over quicker. However, Los Lobos were definitely surprised when Simon's album came out six months later with credits that read "Words and Music by Paul Simon."

Berlin says attempts to find out why they weren't credited were met with silence until Simon contacted the band and said, "Sue me. See what happens." The musician says, "We should have sued him, frankly. I would have loved to have seen what would have happened. But I guess in a weird way, we just naively started fooling around with a song -- a song we didn't have a pre-existing recording of -- and I don't know if we could have proven in a court of law, at the end of the day, that he stole it."

Berlin says that one indicator of Simon's intentions was that the singer claimed to have written a lot of the African material on the 'Graceland' album, but later had to give the African writers credit because there were recordings that actually did exist. But in the end, Steve says the band never received a penny for their work on the 'Graceland' record. He concludes, "Everybody I know who has ever worked with Paul Simon says he's the biggest jerk in the world. Yeah - he's a f---ing idiot."

Shit, I didn't know Paul simon was such an asshole.

R65 Gotcha. Your joke just didn't come across. In other words- George McCrae was a total unknown, but had a huge hit anyway. Hit songs have often made a star out of their singer. GM ended up being a one-hit-wonder, but that's not always the case.

R30 The type of songs that used to be underground, x-rated "party songs" are now mainstream. The only difference is that those old party songs were sometimes funny and clever. WAP is neither of those. It's just gross.

This is my overdose and I will not have it taken away! I WILL NOT BE ERASED!!!!!

[quote] [R43] Diane Warren is probably the most powerful songwriter for hire in the entire industry. You think she'd be forced out of credit and royalties against her will?

Exactly, Diane Warren is already known powerful and has leverage. It's the unknowns, up-and-comers who feel more pressure to give out songwriting credits.

I can believe that Mariah Carey writes her own songs. A lot of her songs have really simple lyrics. She's crying all the way to the bank.

The middle part of your statement isn't even slightly true, R78. I'm guessing you aren't a fan! If anything I find Carey's lyrics lean towards over-complexity; they can be very wordy. We Belong Together is a good example.

Isn't there an old phrase 'change a word, get a third'?

You take a song, change a couple of things and bam - you get writing credit and the money that goes with it.

We have to remember that Queen Bey is not a regular celebrated but a goddess from the universe itself. Criticism of her should be made constructively with personal insults and toxic vitriol kept at a minimum.

Agree with R79: there’s lots of things you can criticise Mariah for but writing simple lyrics isn’t one of them, especially if you look at her whole catalogue, not just the singles.

R62 Madonna loon, we all see you trying to stick her name in where it doesn’t belong... it is well documented that Swift and Carey are actual song writers, Madonna may change a lyric or two in order to put her name as a “songwriter”, but she’s not a real musician, she never has been. She pays the actual songwriters to keep quiet.

Mariah an actual songwriter? Her lyrics are fucking awful. 8th grade level material. She has written no real classics aside from that Xmas song but even that, she got a lot of help. I believe Mariah writes her childish lyrics but she also gets a lot of help.

This has Lady Gaga and Beyoncé, as well as a lot of current pop tarts, names all over this.

There is no evidence that Patrick Leonard was lying when he talked about her co-writing with him. If you have a source for that, let’s see it.

She has less than 10 songs in her career where she’s credited as the sole writer. Some of them dating back before her first album. Did Stephen Bray ever claim he or someone else wrote or co-wrote “Burning Up” or “Everybody”?

Mariah is a ditz, lolling around for her next half-naked photo shoot. She's never written a song.

[quote] Mariah is a ditz, lolling around for her next half-naked photo shoot. She's never written a song.

I think it’s been established IN COURT that this is not true.

If you think her music is shit, just say that. You don’t have to add the lie and say she’s never written a song.

Getting strong “Kurt Cobain wrote ‘Live Through This’”vibes from some people in this thread. Is it MRA night on Datalounge?

Mariah is probably the dimmest person in music. She never says anything remotely clever yet, if she writes, it is reflective of her intelligence. Her songs are not classics.

Gaga didn’t write any of her Oscar nominated songs. Warren has a demo where it is exactly the same except ONE WORD. Gaga changed ONE WORD. Also, Mark Ronson wrote Shallow. That thieving bitch can’t write good lyrics without a lot of help from actual talented writers.

Has Christina Aguilera has joined Datalounge to trash everyone, especially Mariah? Seems like it.

R89 Hi Mariah

The fact you try to say she in on par with Dolly is disgusting. Mariah has not written classics. Period. Her lyrics are banal and simple. You can try your best to attach her names to songwriting legends but nobody believes Mariah is a good songwriter. Her lyrics and melodies are basic and simple.

It is easy to spot who most of these “songwriters” are-

-tons of new artists who just happen to “write” their own songs

-artists who write with a very small number of writers. This shields them from possibly being exposed. Keep your circle small

-artists who write songs with an insane amount of writers on ONE song

-artists who don’t have a history of writing their own material prior to being famous

Beyoncé should be exposed but she will never be exposed.

Are her melodies any less simple than songs by other pop musicians? No.

In fact a lot of her songs have some interesting chord changes and the lead melodies go all over the place. It’s not like we’re talking about “Single Ladies” or “To the Left” here. Any song I can think of by Mariah is traditionally ‘complex’, in the direction that Goffin/King’s songs were. “Always Be My Baby”, “All I Want For Christmas”... Unless you want to make the case that the bulk of her songs were written by someone else, and she contributed just 3 notes additionally, or something?

I can’t believe I’m defending Mariah Carey, but as someone who’s heard her songs on the radio hundreds of times, and who knows a fair bit about music, I feel it’s necessary to counter a ridiculous criticism when I see it. R90, you are talking out of your ass.

[quote] Are her melodies any less simple than songs by other pop musicians? No.

Sorry, meant to write “Are her melodies any simpler than songs by other pop musicians? No.”

R92 Just no. Mariah is not even a middle tier songwriter. Her music is not at the level of other artists who are singer/songwriters, Jaguar. NOBODY reading your ridiculous defense of her is going to believe a word. We all know her music. Simple, stupid, and weak describes a lot of it.

I'm not R92.

Also, simple doesn’t mean song structure. A song can be very complex and absolute shit. It is no bearing on the quality of the songwriting. Simple means lyrics that a love struck high schooler could write and probably write better.

I’m not Jaguar. I don’t know as much about Mariah as Jaguar does, but I am very familiar with her songs from the early-mid 90s, and I know a lot about music. I don’t like radio-pop music, especially nowadays, and I would never say Carey’s songs are interesting lyrically, but the music underneath them is traditional, rather sophisticated pop like stuff from the Brill Building era, with additional influences from the 70s singer-songwriter scene, Motown, etc.

Do you want to get into the music theory behind some of them? Because I can do that. Can you?

[quote] Simple means lyrics that a love struck high schooler could write and probably write better.

Yes, but that isn’t what the criticism was. At least not the criticism I was taking exception to. The claims were “she’s never written a song” and “Her lyrics and melodies are basic and simple.”

Her chord progressions and melodies are not basic and simple.

R97 ahahahahahahahahaha nobody has EVER described her music that way but YOU, an Anon poster, are going to school us? Have a seat, B.

I’ll take that as a “No, I can’t discuss music theory,” R99. Just as I expected.

What the hell does my being anonymous have to do with anything anyway? Do you need to check my credentials in case I say something about major 6ths or diminished chords that you don’t understand?

R98 Chord progressions don’t make a song complicated or good. There are tons of songs with “complicated” chord progressions and melodies that are shit songs. Mariah’s songs are never highly regarded, never make critic’s “Best Of” lists. In fact, when Rolling Stone, VH1 and MTV did a survey in 2000, 2010 and maybe 2016, of the Greatest Artists of All Time, Mariah faired very poorly on these. Oh, the survey was a poll of hundreds of other songwriters and musicians as well as critics. When none of her songs make Best Of lists, that speaks volumes.

[quote] There are tons of songs with “complicated” chord progressions and melodies that are shit songs

Name some of them.

[quote] Mariah’s songs are never highly regarded, never make critic’s “Best Of” lists. In fact, when Rolling Stone, VH1 and MTV did a survey in 2000, 2010 and maybe 2016, of the Greatest Artists of All Time, Mariah faired very poorly on these.

Well, yes, she isn’t considered a serious songwriter, and she isn’t a rock musician. So I wouldn’t expect her to show up on those lists. I wasn’t trying to make the case for that, was I?

Two criticisms here that don’t make any sense: that she has never written a song, and that when she has written songs, her melodies are simple.

They’re not simple melodies. Their chief structures and melodies are actually complex in a traditional pop music sense. I never said they were works of art.

So which is it? Are they simple, or are they complex works of garbage? Does she write no part of her songs, or just three notes? Does she have someone else write the music entirely? Why would she need someone to do that, if they’re so simple?

Your criticisms are internally contradictory because you don’t know what you’re talking about, and you’re talking down to me like I’m a) a Mariah Carey stan, and b) like I don’t know anything music. I live and breathe music.

R102 I’m not reading all of that.You are a Mariah Stan. There were plenty of pop artists on those Best Of lists. Plenty. She just simply isn’t taken seriously because most other artists know she isn’t very good.

Top 1000 acclaimed artists of all time based on a comprehensive critics guide. Only certain respected critics are taken into consideration.

R103, you’re in over your head, that’s why you don’t want to read what I wrote. I have never owned a Mariah Carey album or single in my life. Her songs are pop trifles; that’s not my scene. I don’t actually have a dog in this fight; I just know more about music than the people criticizing Carey here, and my Asperger-ish brain can’t resist the urge to correct someone who’s arrogantly wrong.

What I believe you and whoever else here is a Mariah critic are trying to say, is that Mariah’s not a serious songwriter and her lyrics are insipid, or whatever. That’s fine! I don’t disagree with that. I’m not some vapid f*gg*t who listens to pop divas and shit music all my life. My only point was that her songs are in fact melodically complex, not simple—they’re not classical pieces, or jazz, but they’re as complex as pop music that gets played on the radio is allowed to be. She’s not prog rock, but she’s not, as I said, “All the Single Ladies”, either.

She also CLEARLY writes or co-writes her own songs.

That’s it. I basically agree with you that she’s not someone who will ever end up on one of those lists (which aren’t important anyway; they’re just designed to sell advertising, but that’s another story). I get it that people really hate her music, which is fine—but just be consistent in your criticism, and don’t make shit up. Especially when you don’t know much about music and aren’t qualified to actually make the criticisms you wish you could make.

She isn’t responsible for her chord progressions and “complex” melody structures. She has a cowriter for that. Her lyrics are insipid. Her songs are not complex. They just aren’t but simple songs can be very hard to write and make work. Simple vs complex does not mean one takes more talent. Her music is not taken seriously by critics. Even Janet Jackson ranks higher than her on every critical metric.

Beyoncé, a whole other matter. She needs to be exposed. She has a lot of people protecting her yet it still gets out she is a joke in the songwriting dept.

It's just incredibly dishonest for someone to claim credit for a song they didn't write. I'd be too ashamed to do something like that.

[quote] Even Janet Jackson ranks higher than her on every critical metric.

Ooooooooohhh, okay. Hi, Janbot! Why didn’t you just announce yourself to begin with and I would’ve known not to waste any of my time?

R108 I was pointing out how awful Janet is and she is still above Mariah with critics.

Ah. My apologies for calling you Janbot.

Still, critical consensus has nothing to do with whether her melodies are simple or if she writes her own songs. Which is what the argument (and the whole thread) was about: songwriting.

I’m making myself slightly nauseous for defending her so vociferously, but whatever. I am noble and just.

When we say "songwriting", we mean both lyrics and music? Or just one or the other?

No way does Mariah write her own music. Nope.

R111 Neither does Gaga. Or if she does, it is nothing to brag about. Taylor is way overhyped but she is heads and tails above Gaga in songwriting. Gaga has shown, over a decade, to be quite a bad songwriter.

Fuck all you haters hatin on Queen Bey. She is the greatest, most talented star of all time. And everybody who claim she steals credits is just jealous of her sucess and beauty. Queen Bey does add true lyric magic to her songs. That one number was ordinary until our Queen came up with the brilliant adlib "Ooh ooh, fuck me boo" which became a national anthem for strong women everywhere. Or that genius lyric in the album track "I ain't your ho bae, ooh ooh ooh baby". The Queen deserve all the credit and royalties and to win Song of the Year every damn year.

Don't hate, appreciate!

[quote]When we say "songwriting", we mean both lyrics and music? Or just one or the other? No way does Mariah write her own music. Nope.

See my previous post.

[quote]Some people on this thread would argue that Bernie Taupin or Hal David aren't songwriters because they only write the lyrics, or Elton John or Burt Bacharach aren't songwriters because they only write the music.

[quote][R62] Madonna loon, we all see you trying to stick her name in where it doesn’t belong... it is well documented that Swift and Carey are actual song writers, Madonna may change a lyric or two in order to put her name as a “songwriter”, but she’s not a real musician, she never has been. She pays the actual songwriters to keep quiet.

So when Madonna was working on Like A Prayer, did she say to Pat Leonard "write me a song about my divorce" and he came up with Till Death Do Us Part, "write me a song about my dead mother" and he came up with Promise To Try, "write me a song that covers religion, my father and my divorce" and he came up with Oh Father.

Or is it more likely Madonna had some personal lyrics she wanted to explore and worked with Pat Leonard on the melody and music, or like Live To Tell Pat Leonard had some music and Madonna wrote the lyrics to it.

You don't have to be a fan of Madonna or Mariah to think that they are involved in their musical output in a way that someone like Whitney, Celine or Dusty weren't. Yes, Whitney, Celine and Dusty are better singers than Mariah and Madonna, but they didn't write or produce their own songs.

Of course this turned into a stan war....

R112, I agree that Gaga isn't the best songwriter, but she can most certainly write songs. Out of all the main pop girls, Gaga is far and away the best musician. And it ain't even close.

And, yes, I realize that musicianship and songwriting aren't the same...

FUCK, this is why I come to DL. For threads like these and the ones that objectify men.

It's pretty obvious singers like Carey and Gaga write the lyrics because they don't really deviate much from song to song. Similar themes, words, phrasing. There's a commonality in each song. A definite stamp. Madonna obviously didn't in the beginning but since she's decided to take on this grounded, learned singer persona, the writing has taken a SHRAP decline and that leads me to believe she's much more involved in the writing process. And that's not a good thing.

Taylor Swift is another one whose songs have a definite stamp. Even the ones others record.

Beyoncé, Taylor Swift and Mariah are the names that came to mind.

That list r104 is very heavily skewed towards white rock and roll. I love David Bowie but to put him and Bob Dylan(who I also love) ahead of Stevie Wonder is just wrong. Nirvana! Come on! But it's all subjective anyway.

R40 There were rumors that Berlin stole “Alexanders Ragtime Band” from Scott Joplin, and Joplin claimed as much. That is the only major song for which he is accused of plagiarism, however, seeing as how it was his first major hit, perhaps that is normal. He had career that spanned until the 80s; he had a top billboard hit even after his death. You do not get that kind of career via plagiarism.

[quote] Feel free to hate on Madonna but all the men she's worked with over the years have commented on how involved she is in the songwriting.

Yeah, Stephen Sondheim really struggled to win that Oscar before she shed her genius on the songs.

Precisely r43. Madonna also has her own musical and lyrical identity that has been consistent for literally decades, regardless of who her songwriting partner is.

[quote] Yeah, Stephen Sondheim really struggled to win that Oscar before she shed her genius on the songs.

Of all the posts this is by far the most fucking stupid.

Madonna never claimed a writing credit on the songs Sondheim wrote for Dick Tracy. Because she didn’t co- them. Neither did she claim a credit alongside Lloyd Webber and Rice on Evita because she didn’t co-write them.

She didn’t write Like A Virgin, Crazy For You, Holiday or Borderline either.

She did get a writing credit on Into The Groove, Live To Tell, Like A Prayer, Vogue, Deeper & Deeper, Take A Bow, Frozen, Music, Hung Up etc because she did co-write them.

Can someone explain Mick Jagger/Keith Richards vs. the Verve’s Richard Achcroft to me?

Did Jagger & Richards merely decide to give Ashcroft songwriting credits and publishing rights out of the goodness of their hearts?

[quote]Now, according to a press release from Ashcroft’s camp, Jagger and Richards have agreed to unconditionally give their songwriting credits and publishing rights for “Bitter Sweet Symphony” to Ashcroft. The decision comes on the heels of Ashcroft’s management making a direct plea to the Stones members, according to the release.

Madonna didn’t write the best songs she sang on, it was the shite ones she co wrote and they prove she sucks at that as well. Britney is a hillbilly without an education so it’s laughable to think anyone believes she wrote her own name correctly let alone lyrics to her pop hits.Justin Trantor was in Semi Precious Weapons and a close friend of early Ga Ga. they would go to the lower east side clubs where Ga Ga was a stripper/gogo dancer.

Oh lord the Loon is in full meltdown mode r124. Madonna is not a songwriter as much as you wish it was true. Like Beyoncé should be investigated for her Grammy wins and songwriting credits, Madonna should also be investigated for how she got into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. In a recent interview Cyndi Lauper confirmed that Madonna’s record company paid her way into the Hall.

I'm not really a Madonna fan, but I believe she's enough of a control freak to contribute lyrics where she can.

Dolly Parton was born a hillbilly and she has written hundreds of songs.

Britney apparently wanted to write songs and she did contribute to her hit single "Everytime" though that could have been embellished. But it's not known for sure what her ability could have been in the songwritimg. I don't think it's hard to write a song but writing a hit song is another question.

Timberlake and Christina apparently cowrite a lot of their songs and I think it's very believable given what control freaks they are.

Linda Ronstadt commented that she never wrote songs so never got royalties from any.

The royalties from writing apparently are more lucrative than just performing in the long run

Madonna deserves her place in the RHOF. She's responsible for just about every pop tart in music from the past 4 decades.

I believe Gaga definitely wrote "Donatella." That is her "I Love New York"--embarassing, puerile, shallow, amateurish. I do not believe she wrote "Marry the Night," " Edge of Glory, " "Just Dance," " Born This Way, " "Perfect Illusion," or any of her huge hits. She maybe writes the lyrics to the B-sides, perhaps the filler stuff, but no way is the person who thought "Mary Kane Holland" was clever responsible for "Shallow." She probably came up with the yelling mid-section before the octave change, and demanded a credit.

I earned an Oscar, a Grammy and shitloads of royalty income for demanding that Paul Williams change the lyric from "Love, ageless, evergreen" to "Love, ageless and evergreen". Who knew it was so easy to get songwriter credits?

[R127] "Best" is very subjective thing. I love Like a Prayer but I'm not going to claim it's lyrically complex. It has simple 'moon june spoon' sort of rhymes.

Not every musician can be Prince.

Of course r128, the only way the biggest and biggest-selling solo female star ever, with a career covering several decades, could get into Rock n' Roll Hall of Fame is if her record company bribed someone. Meanwhile, Cyndi Lauper wrote just which of her 2 hits?

Frozen

Justify My Love

God Control.

All stolen. How reductive.

Justify My Love was written by Lenny Kravitz. From whom was it “stolen”?

[quote] Madonna obviously didn't in the beginning but since she's decided to take on this grounded, learned singer persona, the writing has taken a SHRAP decline and that leads me to believe she's much more involved in the writing process

Madonna obviously did write or co-write most of her songs in the beginning. Some notable exceptions have been mentioned, like “Holiday” and “Borderline,” but she also has songs from that same album that she wrote entirely herself, like “Burning Up” and “Everybody”.

No one who is really, REALLY into music thinks of Madonna as a singer-songwriter, at least not a serious one who should be revered for her writing (she stopped playing guitar before her first record came out, and I don’t know if she bothered to pick up any instrument between then and decades later when she started incorporating guitars into her live performance). So don’t worry, no one here is confusing her with Bob Dylan or Neil Young or John Lennon or Dolly Parton or Joni Mitchen. Also, no one is obligated to think her music is good. But you don’t need to spout falsehoods about her involvement in the creation of her songs just to make the point that she sucks. Same goes for Mariah Carey.

R115 and R125 speak the truth, everyone else is just being hyperbolic.

Madonna doesn't write her own songs but steals elements of other people's songs to give to the songwriters who are writing her songs and who are forced to give her credit, even though she doesn't contribute to them.

OK

For Justify My Love and God Control it was Krazitz and Mirwais who didn't acknowledge their collaboration and I love the story that Madonna first heard the melody for the verse of Frozen when she was a back up dancer in Belgium in the late 70s and kept it for nearly 20 years.

Beyoncé knowles is talentless garbage.

[quote]Justify My Love was written by Lenny Kravitz. From whom was it “stolen”?

The lyrics to Justify My Love were written by Ingrid Chavez. Kravitz didn't credit her.

r141, Don't ever disrespect Queen Bey you stankin ass bitch. Ever.

Kravitz is credited for Justify My Love, but he didn't credit Ingrid Chavez, with whom he co-wrote the song.

[quote]The song was written by Lenny Kravitz and Ingrid Chavez, with additional lyrics by Madonna. Chavez was not credited on the song, which led to a lawsuit against Kravitz. Chavez settled out-of-court, the terms of which included a songwriting credit. Madonna's vocals are primarily spoken and whispered, but almost never sung, a style that she later employed on her following studio album Erotica (1992).

Madonna is actually a well regarded songwriter. I know it pains the fans of other divas but there is tons of proof Madonna writes her lyrics and writes the melodies. Read the book Like An Icon by the well regarded Lucy O’Brien. She interviews dozens of musicians who worked with Madonna. They confirm she is heavily involved in the music writing as well as writing almost all lyrics from early on. All of the writers, drummers, guitarists, background singers, engineers said she is one of the best. The only album she was not heavily involved with the lyrics was Like A Virgin and even then, she wrote half the songs.

Madonna is sole writer for Lucky Star, Burning Up and Everybody from her first album. To her credit, she says she is a much better collaborator because she likes being pushed in the studio to consider other options.

Rick Knowles, Babyface and Patrick Leonard have worked with the most revered songwriters in music. They all say Madonna is on those musicians’ level.

140-142 same anti-madonna troll.

Beyoncé will never be exposed count on that so she’s safe.

Any pop bitch who claims to write their own songs over the last 15 years should be worried.

Gaga is not a good musician. She is average/fair at best. She plays about as good as an elementary choir teacher. Her songwriting is bad. Her honking singing is not pleasant.

Madonna was in a few rock bands before her big break. People don't realize Madonna came onto the scene at the age of 25. She wasn't that young and she was living in NYC for years rubbing shoulders with many in the art world. It's believable she practiced songwriting during that period and she did write a lot of songs for her debut. A lot of the songs on that album had amateurish lyrics. Now her later stuff after she became a huge star, she had many collaborators who probably refined the songs but I believe she played a big part in the songwriting process and coming up with the concepts.

R148

It is well documented Madonna wrote a lot of songs from 1978 on after Dan Gilroy taught her guitar and drums. He has said numerous times how the songs, music and lyrics, just seems to flow out of her. He did a documentary called Madonna and the Breakfast Club.

R134, Gaga said she wrote Edge of Glory when her grandfather was dying. She and her father were drinking tequila and her father said that his father was on the edge of a glorious moment: He'll soon reunited with his deceased wife. That inspired the lyrical hook.

And she wrote the lyrics for Perfect Illusion after she broke up with that Taylor actor guy. The lyrics seem to fit their rather public breakup to a tee.

No idea about the other songs on your list...

R147 I don't like Gaga much anymore. I only enjoyed her stuff from 2008 to 2009 because it sounded fresh at the time when urban and hip-hop was everywhere. Her imagery and wardrobe was fascinating too compared to the other pop tarts whose imagery was just midriffs, bikinis and high heels while dancing in a club/bar. I think Born This Way was when Gaga started getting arrogant and believing her hype as the "new Madonna". She clearly wants to be a famous diva known for her singing and celebrity factor rather than an actual musician who lets the music speak for itself. She is very self-promoting and seems insincere in everything and I don't think her music will age well. I can't stand Taylor Swift but I do think she'll be around for a long time and she is smart about adapting to new styles.

R152, yeah Gaga can grate for sure. Though that Theater Nerd Try-Hard Ethic seems to have waned as she's aged. She seems mellower these days. She's also loved by her peers (even Madonna these days). Her last album was one of the biggest female albums of the year and she did nothing to promote it (unlike Dua and Taylor who had bigger albums). It seems she's here to stay.

I do think she's a very talented musician who all too often writes (or chooses) bad/cheesy songs. But she also writes/chooses some pop bangers for sure (I really like Rain on Me).

I don't like Taylor as much as Gaga, but she's here to stay too.

Gaga is not liked by her peers. She is still the biggest try hard of all time. She did promote her last album which was only successful due to streaming due to Rain On Me. Ariana got her those streams. Gaga can only write bangers when she has multiple songwriters involved. She is a so-so pianist, a shitty guitar player and a very average (if that) songwriter. Among her peers, she is not even top 5 most successful. All the other pop tarts easily get #1s, tons of streams and so on. Gaga has to have an Ariana to have a hit. Her other “hits” seem to magically jump then plummet down the charts in a week.

Oh, the anti-Gaga bot is here.

I know you because of the "she's not even the top 5 most successful" line you always use.

Hi!

[quote] Diane Warren is probably the most powerful songwriter for hire in the entire industry.

A lot of old people in this thread who don't have a clue about music today. Diane Warren hasn't been a relevant songwriter in over a decade. Her corny power ballads are as dead as Celine Dion's career.

R72 I always knew he was a little shit. They should’ve sued him.

R155 I read the line and liked it. It fit.

R43, Perry backtracked on that:

[quote]A lot of old people in this thread who don't have a clue about music today. Diane Warren hasn't been a relevant songwriter in over a decade. Her corny power ballads are as dead as Celine Dion's career.

And yet she's still one of the most prolific and successful songwriters in history.

And she just got her 6th Oscar nomination in 7 years, her 11th in total.

Do songwriters get paid when their songs are played at funerals? How Do I Live, Because You Loved Me, There You'll Be, I Don't Want To Miss A Thing would have played non stop at all the Covid funerals over the last year.

R159 You don’t make that kind of comment and it be “a mistake.” Diane Warren had a demo of the song that clearly shows Gaga changed a word. Gaga has powerful mod connections and money behind her. She is shoved down our throats even though she went 8 years of flops.

‘Madonna and the Breakfast Club’ written by the Gilroy Bros is on Hulu. It isn’t the best documentary by any stretch but it clearly shows how Madonna was writing song solo (lyrics, music) for much of her early work. She clearly writes her songs. It also shows she was a decent drummer, decent guitarist, played keyboards proficiently and it shows her voice getting more mature. It also doesn’t portray her as this huge bitch but rather a more complex person though there were some tense moments when the various bands broke up.

Dan Gilroy, her boyfriend throughout, also has recordings of them interacting with each other. Madonna is using this baby voice which is distracting but otherwise it gives a very unique perspective of her from those in her early rock bands.

Most of Madge's earliest hits were written by others....why is that the case if she's so capable of writing hits on her own?

R163 Not true. WBR wanted more control for her second album. Reggie Lucas stole songwriting credits from her. She wrote most of her first album, half of her second, all of her third. Into The Groove was ranked by critics as the #1 song of ‘85. She wrote that. It would have been #1 but, due to WBR, was not released due to competition with LAV.

Madonna wrote Lucky Star (solo), Into the Groove and Angel. She also wrote Borderline but had it stolen by Reggie Lucas.

LOL, she didn't write Borderline

Open Your Heart was written for Cyndi Lauper but she got songwriting credit because she changed a few lines

R166 Do your homework if you’re gonna troll- a rough musical outline was written. Madonna and Patrick Leonard completely redid it with Madonna writing all new lyrics.

Translation: she stole it

R166 read Like An Icon- Reggie stole more than that from Madonna. This isn’t a new revelation.

Reggie also stole from Stephen Bray on the first album.

Because a biased bio is an objective source of information

R171 Biased? Lucy O’Brien is a renowned biographer of musicians.

Britney claims that she wrote "Everytime" herself

Some of you aren’t very knowledgeable about the music industry. There are tons of songs shopped to artists. Even those who write their own songs. They are contracted by record companies. Most artists are highly encouraged to take some of them, even if they completely redo them, to give the songwriter credit to build their name. The problem is, as this thread is all about, many do not give them credit.

Also, This thread screams Janet and Beyoncé.

R164 is full psychotic. Madonna Ciccone is not a songwriter, definitely not a singer and barely a dancer. She’s a product of record executives. To put Madonna in the same category of any other real songwriter mentioned here is laughable.

I don't know about Janet. Janet consistently worked with Jam & Lewis and later Dupri. I don't think she stole any credits and her work has a consistent sound. It's not hard to believe that she had a lot of input in her work especially when she started overboard with the sex image as she hit her 30s.

174-175 Anti-madonna troll

[quote]Feel free to hate on Madonna but all the men she's worked with over the years have commented on how involved she is in the songwriting. Pat Leonard wrote the backing track for Live To Tell, Madonna wrote the lyrics and worked on the melodies.

Exactly Madonna actually co-wrote her songs. The only lawsuit that came near any of her songs was "Justify My Love". Ingrid Chavez sued Lenny Kravitz who didn't give her credit, Madonna added some lines after Kravitz and Chavez finished but Madonna wasn't named in the suit. The case was settled out of court in 1992, with Chavez getting a composer credit along with Kravitz and Madonna.

Meant 175-176

R174 pretends to be knowledgeable but singles out black artists like Janet and Beyonce as if white artists never do this

R180. I’d add Taylor to a certain degree, Katy, Gaga, Adele (to a degree).

Madonna stole from a lot of people

R182 fake troll site from a notorious madonna hater

Madonna stole lines from "Sky Fits Heaven" from Max Blagg

She won the Frozen lawsuit and the SFH was ridiculous. Try harder

Mariah has faced a lot of accusations.

If you read this article, sadly from FOX, they detail many, many allegations against Mariah. Her defense is often HYSTERICAL.

R185, if by "ridiculous" you mean accurate...

In Mariah’s defense, many songwriters get sued all the time but those allegations against her in the Fox article by her best bud Roger Friedman were really damning.

Every A-list artist gets one to two copyright lawsuits filed against them in a typical year. Lots of unsuccessful songwriters see it as an easy payday, since so many of these lawsuits are cheaper to settle out of court, even if there is no legal basis to them.

It's understood that when you reach a certain level as an artist that a percentage of your income is going to be spent on lawyers to fight unscrupulous people who want a piece of what you have.

Yeah, people can file bogus lawsuits.....but big-time artists can also rip people off

[quote]Reggie Lucas stole songwriting credits from her.

That is a joke. Reggie Lucas is an industry veteran who wrote or co-wrote Mtume 's Juicy and with Mtume did Stephanie Mill's Never Knew Love LIke this Before.

You think HE stole from Madonna???? WTF

R192 According to Stephen Bray himself, and other industry veterans, he stole from Madonna and Stephen Bray.

Slowly Beyoncé’s legacy is stripped away. Her PR machine can only go so far. When’s the last hit she’s had? She should hire new writers.

Beyoncé has very few actual hits in what 10 years? Her streams are suspect. But this is not uncommon. Success is an illusion now. Streaming is highly manipulated. The music industry is in trouble. There is no universal hits now.

"Slowly Beyoncé’s legacy is stripped away. Her PR machine can only go so far. When’s the last hit she’s had? She should hire new writers."

Of course the DL Klan brigade singles her out.....

"Beyoncé has very few actual hits in what 10 years?"

She's been famous since she was a teen and has had a ton of hit singles and platinum albums......which you know damn well. But keep beating that "success is an illusion" drum if it makes you feel better.

This could be a separate thread, but does anyone remember when Mariah Carey was white?

She was marketed as white when she first came out. I think people forget that. It wasn’t until a good decade into her career that it seemed like she was allowed to be herself. Maybe longer

But I distinctly remember her being lighter on her album covers and maybe even made up that way on her performances.

She never seemed to tour as much as the others.

Everytime is a good song.

I would be disappointed to find out that GAGA did not really write Born this way (album) or Poker Face or Monster. Her early stuff. And even a couple off Joanne and Artpop.

I would be surprised and disappointed. Because I’m not her biggest fan anyway but I always gave her credit for being a good catchy Pop songwriter at the very least. Bout this way full album from back to back was a pop masterpiece. Along with her first album.

So please tell me this is not true.

[quote]This could be a separate thread, but does anyone remember when Mariah Carey was white?

From the beginning she said she was mixed race. Her songs were not as hip hop but she always had goslpel/rnb type songs even on her 1st 2 albums

She was white, black or mixed when it suited her. Typical coward. Or typical Sony.

[quote]She was white, black or mixed when it suited her. Typical coward. Or typical Sony.

you're just making shit up. In her interviews on TV from the get go she said she's mixed race.

Beyoncé is the reason this was written

Professor of Rock with Patrick Leonard on Madonna’s songwriting

Beyonce seems too illiterate and stupid to be writing anything. I doubt she could even write a lyric spelling out her name. She'd hire a team of eight songwriters to spell out her name and then get herself added to the credits because "using my name was my idea."

R147

Gaga has the career that Madonna wanted:

Gaga was nominated for a Best Actress Oscar (Madonna never will be).

Gaga can SING (Madonna has a very weak voice).

My only problem with Gaga is that her songs just aren't very good/catchy. Madonna at least had some catchy pop songs that made her weak vocals palatable.

R207

...any day now they'll announce a re-make of EVITA with Gaga, and she'll actually be able to sing the songs Madonna struggled through.

R207 You dumb Gaga Stan- she will never ever have carrier Madonna has had. Gaga cares about the awards but it is sales and the general public giving a shit that Gaga will never have. You Gaga stans know it and it eats at you. She can’t even best her peers much lest Madonna.

207-208 same Gaga stan

R200, Gaga co-writes most of her song - including Poker Face. Don't let the weird anti-Gaga bot fool you. He's weird.

R211 That’s something to brag about/ Ahahahahahaha

Per Wikipedia, Madonna didn’t write her third album, True Blue, herself. Every song on their has at least one co-writer, more often two.

[quote]Per Wikipedia, Madonna didn’t write her third album, True Blue, herself. Every song on their has at least one co-writer, more often two.

Ever heard of Holland Dozier Holland?

The Bee Gees?

R214 Regarding True Blue, I was just responding to the poster who said Madonna wrote all of her 3rd album.

There is a song on I am Sasha Fierce - Smash into you, that she literaly changed one word. Smack to Smash. The song was originally called Smack into you. "I want to run, smack into you" When they changed the one word the song made zero sense. I want to run smash into you? who the fuck says that? But that was the demand from her team if they wanted that song on her album she got a song writing credit.

[quote][R214] Regarding True Blue, I was just responding to the poster who said Madonna wrote all of her 3rd album.

She did write all of True Blue.

7 songs were co written with either Pat Leonard or Steve Bray or in the case of Where's The Party, both.

She was credited with writing additional lyrics for Papa Don't Preach and re-wrote elements of Open Your Heart which are obvious when you listen to the demo by the original songwriters.

Why is it so hard to understand that if someone *just* writes the lyrics or *just* writes the music they are still credited for writing the song?

Love the people who call Beyonce "illiterate" but act as if all the White pop divas are reading Proust all day

Because it makes it sound like she’s the sole songwriter, R217. She co-wrote the True Blue album—that’s the only accurate way to say it. Anything else—in either direction—is misleading. I’m not saying this to take anything away from Madonna’s work, I just think it’s better to be accurate and avoid confusion.

R209 Are you the anti-Olivia Newton-John troll, too?

I knew Mariah's name would get dragged through the mud. These people aren't fighting over songwriting credits from artists whose heyday was 20+ years ago, you old queens. And thats no shade to Mariah, its just the truth. Mariah never had someone suing her for song writing credits like Beyonce has, on numerous occasions.

R217 when I of an artist writing his of her album, I mean written completely by that person. For example, Sting, Kate Bush, Paul McCartney. There are no co-writers.

When I think of an artist writing ^

[quote][R217] when I of an artist writing his of her album, I mean written completely by that person. For example, Sting, Kate Bush, Paul McCartney. There are no co-writers.

You don't consider Elton John to write his own songs because someone else writes the lyrics?

R224 John co-writes his songs. It’s not a criticism, though I admit I admire artists who write (and produce) the songs completely on their own. You tend to get a very distinct set of songs (see Kate Bush’s discography) rather than a product by commitee.

It’s not an insult to say an artist co-writes his songs. It just isn’t the same as writing everything.

r218 Love how you turn this into a race issue when Kelly Rowland, Letoya Luckett and Latavia Roberson all grew up alongside Beyonce and probably have the same level of education as her, yet all of them are more articulate and appear brighter than Bey.

There's nothing wrong with co-writing songs....after all, MOST songs are written in collaboration. It's only a problem when you act as if your co-writers don't exist and pretend you wrote those songs on your own

R227 well put.

Dont try me, bitch!

R227 every copy of All I Want For Xmas says Walter co-wrote it and he earns 50% of the publishing. Mariah has never claimed otherwise. He's just pissed off because every time she tells the story of how she got inspired to write it she doesn't mention him.

Her process is she gets ideas and then works them out more fully with Walter or Ben or others at the piano. Doesn't mean she has to mention Walter EVERY FUCKING time someone asks her about that song. He's earned and continues to earn millions off it.

Rita Coolidge claimed that she co wrote "Superstar" made famous by the Carpenters, it was originally called "Groupie". She also claims she wrote the second half of "Layla"

Bob Dylan has been called out for plagiarism

Elton’s songs all sound the same. I have to wait for the words to know what damn song I’m listening to.

Taylor Swift has been releasing the same boring song for the last 10 years, but with slightly different lyrics.

R234 I’m not all that impressed with her songwriting either. I am esp skeptical because her record company tries so hard to push the narrative she is one of the best of all time. I would not be surprised she has a lot of help writing even though her lyrics are nothing special.

Aren't Taylor Swift's songs written by Max Martin?

Now can we get all the producers of Real Housewives to sign a letter that Andy Cohen did not create the franchise?

R230: agree that she doesn’t need to mention Walter every time AIWFCIY is mentioned but she has in recent years been quite clever to imply when talking about it that she did it all herself. I guess there is still bad blood between them after he apparently sided with Tommy Mottola after they divorced in 1997 (and his recent criticism of her) so she’s still loathe to mention him ever but I’d like to see her acknowledge his role in it, in part to actually shut people up who claim she must have had little to no part in writing it. Does she lose anything to say ‘yeah I came up with 90% of the lyrics, Walter helped me on a bit of the melody’. Otherwise people think ‘hang on she’s saying she wrote it herself so why is this guy on the credits? She must be lying and probably did nothing’.

Poor Madonna.

R238 He did far more than a little writing. She takes way too much credit.

R239 I highly doubt she is worried. On Hulu watch Madonna and the Breakfast Club. All members give her tons of credit and talk about how prolific a songwriter she started becoming (She was “churning out songs more and more”) as the band broke up. No doubt Stephen Bray helped her develop the arranging/music part but she was sole writer for hundreds of her early songs before fame. Songwriting credits were stolen by Reggie Lucas from Madonna and Stephen Bray per the band members. Madonna was taught drums which they said she was a natural due to her timing being a dancer, self taught guitar and would play with Dan Gilroy while walking around NYC with an amplifier, and played keyboards. Pat Leonard has said her songwriting was getting highly developed by the True Blue album. He called her a fast learner. He also said she is among the best lyricist/melodist in the business and he says he has worked with the most revered song writers. Rick Knowles, who has written hits for everybody, profusely praises Madonna’s songwriting abilities saying her way with lyrics and melodies is gifted.

I wish they would call out all the artists who do this. I would wager over 90% of new artists over the past 20 years do this.

Mariah doesn’t write with many different songwriters because she would be exposed as the weak writer she is.

Rick Knowles on Madonna’s songwriting abilities

Rick Knowles on Madonna: “Madonna and I wrote nine songs together over a two week period in late April 1997. Madonna would show up at 3 p.m. and we would start from scratch. She would leave at 7:00 and we would have a finished song and demo with all her lead and background vocals recorded.

She is a brilliant pop melodist and lyricist. I was knocked out by the quality of the writing. The lyrics to ‘The Power Of Good-Bye’ are stunning. I love Madonna as an artist and a songwriter… I know she grew up on Joni Mitchell and Motown, and to my ears she embodies the best of both worlds. She is a wonderful confessional songwriter, as well as being a superb hit chorus pop writer… She doesn’t get the credit she deserves as a writer.”

Check out the songs and artists he has written with and for. He’s the real deal.

NOWELS you fucking idiot. You can't even spell his name properly and you expect people to take you seriously?

R244 Awwww you sound triggered

For a second I thought he was related to Beyoncé Knowles. LOL. Rick is one of the best songwriters out there so high praise from him is rare and impressive.

Rick Nowels is one of my favourite songwriters.

I'd love to hear Belinda singing The Power Of Goodbye, with Donna De Lory on backing vocals naturally.

Madonna even had hits with the songs that didn't make her albums. Nick Kamen made #5 with Each Time You Break My Heart, a cast off from True Blue. I hope he fucked her as a thank you. Not a bad song but not a patch on Kamen's I Promised Myself which he wrote all by himself. Not just a pretty face.

And Gary Barlow hit #1 with Love Won't Wait, written with Shep Pettibone from the post Erotica album that became Bedtime Stories.

Not a hit, but I love this song written by Madonna for Nick Scotti. You can clearly hear her on backing vocals.

Nowels is right about Madonna. She's a combination of classic Motown, Brill Building pop and 70s singer-songwriter with dance beats. If you hate Madonna nothing will stop you but that's the truth.

Between 1986 and 1993 all but 4 of Madonna's singles (18 in total) were written by Madonna with either Patrick Leonard, Stephen Bray or Shep Pettibone. Between them, Leonard, Bray and Pettibone wrote a total of 2 top 10 hits for *other* artists, both being Bray co-writes.

Take A Bow was the first time she had co-written with an established songwriter who had a track record of having hits with other artists. Take A Bow saw Madonna overtake Carole King as the female songwriter with the US #1s and was her longest running #1.

Babyface had won 3 Grammys and been nominated for 8 more when he worked with Madonna.

[quote]When Edmonds played Madonna the bare bones of a song that would become "Take a Bow," she immediately took to it. "It was just a beat and the chords. From there we collaborated and built it up," he says. "I was living in Beverly Hills and I created a little studio in my house, so she came over there to write. As for "Forbidden Love," Edmonds recalls that track came together with similar speed. "She heard the basic track and it all started coming out, melodies and everything... It was a much easier process than I thought it would be."

[quote]Mariah doesn’t write with many different songwriters because she would be exposed as the weak writer she is.

You clearly don't know anything about Mariah or her catalog, since this statement is objectively false (she's written with many different people; it was just early in her career she worked with either Ben or Walter)..

And she's so "weak" that her career and publishing catalog or doing so "poorly". Moron.

[quote]Mariah doesn’t write with many different songwriters because she would be exposed as the weak writer she is.

There's a reason why artists find a team they trust and rarely venture outside of it. The music business is especially treacherous with songwriters trying to get credit for just being in the room when a song is recorded, even if they added nothing to it. This is very common, and more so today as songwriters make a fraction of what they used to make before streaming. Lawsuits are common with hit songs. Artists are very careful about who they let into the studio with them now.

R252 Artists also protected themselves by sticking to a small team. You can read it how you want but it is suspicious. Writing with a larger team would leave you open to criticism if you weren’t that involved in the actual writing.