Which stars of Hollywood's Golden Age were genuinely homophobic?

Probably known racist Walter Brennan.

Frank Sinatra

I've heard John Wayne was, although he got along with Rock Hudson when they did a movie together

Brigitte Bardot and Alain Delon have made anti-gay comments

Sinatra's detective movie series Tony Rome always had negative portrayals of gay men.

Didn't Sinatra say homophobic shit to Monty Clift?

All, except some of the gay ones, Gloria Grahame and maybe Joan.

Ann Miller wasn't homophobic. She was one of Farley Granger's best friends.

Joseph Cotton definitely was. I remember something about how he ripped into Christopher Isherwood (behind his back of course) at some H-wood party...

It's ironic, [R8], that Mr. Cotton did one of the more subtle guest-star roles of a homosexual man on "The Streets of San Francisco" series.

Joseph Cotton

Don Bachardy who was the longtime partner of Christoper Isherwood (until Isherwood's death) has said that Joseph Cotton was very homophobic and treated him badly whenever Christoper wasn't around. Joseph Cotton wouldn't dare behave like that in front of Christopher Isherwood. Sometimes they are the worst kind.

John Wayne in his infamous "Playboy" interview of 1971 not only said that he "believes in white supremacy" but also referred to the "perverted" "Midnight Cowboy" as "a film about two fags."

[quote] John Wayne in his infamous "Playboy" interview of 1971 not only said that he "believes in white supremacy" but also referred to the "perverted" "Midnight Cowboy" as "a film about two fags."

I'm sure Jon Voight didn't disagree.

In the Cyd Charisse thread someone said she'd make homophobic comments about the gay dancers she worked with.

Me!

[quote]In the Cyd Charisse thread someone said she'd make homophobic comments about the gay dancers she worked with.

In other words, all of them.

Gene Kelly would make nasty comments about gays....but he'd put out for guys if he thought it would help his career

The only reason they didn't use racial slurs about the Jews was because they knew that would ruin their careers. The Jews indeed ran Hollywood - my partner's family is Jewish. There were country clubs they couldn't join, I remember. Lucy and Gary Morton were members of his parents club - that's where they saw them mostly.

All the other slurs were popular at the time, I am sure.

One question I have is how widespread people in Hollywood knew about the gay men in bearded marriages. For example, Danny Kaye, Van Johnson, Jack Benny, Adrian, Keenan Wynn, Rock Hudson, etc. I would also say Fred Astaire since I don't know for sure he was, but I assume so - didn't Gore Vidal out him?

Gene Kelly worked with LOTS of gay men and I can't believe he would have used the word around them in public. My partner knew him, too. He doesn't think he was gay. He also was close with Paul Newman and his family. He says he and Joanne - his wife - were very affectionate around him. They really seemed to be in love.

Do we know if Judy Garland ever used the word? Can we forgive if if she did?

It's easier to state which stars were on record as NOT being homophobic. All were female, as a male star's career would be damaged if he said anything supportive about gays. Closeted gays especially were the most vocal against homosexuality, or they kept their mouths shut.

Three leading ladies were supportive at the time:

Elizabeth Taylor

Joan Crawford

Judy Garland

Ironically, gay icons Bette Davis and Mae West made anti-homosexual statements, although both also had gay friends.

t was a sad time, much like the Jim Crow era of the South when educated white people were afraid to openly support black rights.

Grant Williams said he wouldn't play a gay character....even though there was speculation that he was gay himself

[quote] Ann Miller wasn't homophobic. She was one of Farley Granger's best friends.

Ah jes' LOVED the KARN-holers!

I would say t' my friend, JUH-day Garland, "JU-day, them KARN-holers lak FAR-lay are jes' aces with me!"

Thanks for helping me make a shopping list, 0P!

R8, He would talk about "half men" and how disgusting they were, obviously eluding to gay men. Don Bachardy mentioned it in the documentary Chris and Don A Love Story, here at 1:07:45.

It's a shame Don never said anything back to that coward Joseph Cotten, if that had been me I would've looked him dead in the eye and say "it must be hard for you every time you look down" with the most sympathetic expression plastered on my face and loud enough for everyone to hear.

Sorry to hear that about Cotton.

Always really like him in old movies.

I think Liza is homophobic.

She divorced every gay man she ever married. If she wasn't homophobic she would have stayed married.

British actor Donald Wolfit used to bitch about gays in the theater. When John Gielgud was busted for tearoom cruising, Wolfit tried to start a petition to have him banned from the theater. He had no success with that, since Gielgud was so respected by his peers

Liza must have known about Peter Allen, certainly her mother would have.

R19 What did Mae West and Bette Davis say? I remember someone on DL(?) posting that West was one of the few stars who was openly supportive.

Some of the biggest homophobes during Hollywood's Golden Age were gay. They were either self-loathing or just trying to divert suspicion. Perhaps, a bit of both?

Who are you thinking of, R39?

Joseph Cotton was rumored to be black passing as white.

Maybe Clark Gable? In the 1930's Cary Grant and Randolph Scott lived together. Grant had been lovers with Ory-Kelly before Scott. He seems so obviously gay in the movie he did with Mae West. I don't know if ever said anything homophobic. It's been said that Clark Cable said homophobic things because George Cukor had given him a BJ. He had Cukor taken off of Gone With the Wind because of it...

R32, the story is Clark Gable put out for Billy Haines when Billy was a top star and Gable was an ambitious up-and-comer. Haines and Cukor were good friends and frequent house guests and dining companions, so Cukor was well aware of this past indiscretion. When Gable heard someone on the GWTW set remark that Cukor was directing one of Billy Haines' old tricks, Gable hit the roof and had Cukor fired.

Gable also supposedly didn't get a long with Charles Laughton on the set of "Mutiny on the Bounty" as Laughton was flamboyant and brought along his gay partner as his masseur.

Surprisingly, Gable and Montgomery Clift bonded on the set of "The Misfits," but only after Clift served up caustic volleys of his own. After Clift flubbed his lines one too many times, an incensed Gable called him a "sleazy little runt" and threatened to smash the other side of his face. Clift retorted, "why don't you take out your dentures and kiss my ass?" On another occasion, Gable called Monty a faggot. "It takes one to know one," Clift shot back. Gable laughed these off and ended up Clift's protector to John Huston's bullying.

GREAT POST!

His name was Joseph COTTEN, with an E.

Really gays, you should know better.

Steve McQueen

Helen Lawson

R37, If you mean Susan Hayward, the rumour was doing the rounds a while back, but it all seemed to based upon a bio from IMDB and it's been disputed.

Hedda Hopper was to the right of Ann Coulter. A nasty bitch who’s rotting in hell.

[quote] I remember someone on DL(?) posting that West was one of the few stars who was openly supportive.

She most certainly wasn’t. She wrote some nasty homophobic shit in her memoir. I forget the exact quote, but something along the lines of “homosexuals are degenerates.”

Bette Davis apparently had a young male fan ask for her autograph and later remarked to a friend that she couldn’t imagine what his mother could’ve done to turn him into a “pansy” at that age. Or something along those lines. I can forgive Davis given the times, but West’s remarks were made well into the 1970s when she should’ve known better, were far nastier, and she put them in her book.

Diahann Carroll, performing at an outdoor concert in the 1970s, felt the audience wasn't being generous enough with their applause.

She looked out at the audience and asked, "Are you all faggots?".

That story was printed in a Variety review of the concert.

R31, Carol Channing had a black father.

Jack Paar. But, frankly, if you've watched him for even a minute, there's no question that he was a closet case himself. That was not a straight man.

How can anyone in show biz be homophobic?

Charlton Heston.

[quote] Do we know if Judy Garland ever used the word? Can we forgive if if she did?

If she did it was probably along the lines of Kathy Griffin’s “Where my gays?”

[quote] British actor Donald Wolfit used to bitch about gays in the theater. When John Gielgud was busted for tearoom cruising, Wolfit tried to start a petition to have him banned from the theater. He had no success with that, since Gielgud was so respected by his peers.

Was he too stupid to realize that without gays in theatre there wouldn’t BE any theatre? That’s like becoming a nurse and complaining that they let women into the profession. Learn to read the room, Donald.

I'd really like some links R40

Frank Sinatra became friends with Montgomery Clift during the filming of From Here To Eternity, standing by to watch Clift film his scenes because he was so enthralled by Monty's acting as well as the two going to bars for drinks after a day's shoot. They remained friendly for years following until one time when Sinatra invited Clift to a party at his house where Monty spent almost the entire evening drunkenly pursuing another male guest. Sinatra took it as a personal insult - not only did Clift get drunk in his home, but embarrassed himself.

I came to post that Jack Paar piece by Kliph Nesteroff. Pretty breathtaking homophobia from one of the most fey talk show hosts ever.

R49 Right? If Paar were any gayer, his name would've been Gay Gayerson.

[quote]Sinatra's detective movie series Tony Rome always had negative portrayals of gay men.

Wonder what Ronan thinks of that...?🤨

As I've said many times before, Andy Devine was one of the biggest homophobes in Hollywood.

R40, R41 This is why I keep telling ya’ll to quit worshipping these straight female celebrities and all your stupid “divas” - most of them don’t even like you or support you and just want your money. Try supporting your own instead.

Henry Fonda was a douche to Charles Laughton when Laughton directed him in a production of The Caine Mutiny Court Martial. During the rehearsals, Laughton made a comment about military behavior and Fonda turned on him and said: “What do you know about men, you fat, ugly faggot!” Laughton never spoke to Fonda again, not even ten years later when they were in a film together. (Btw, Laughton served in the trenches in WW1)

Hearing about that depressed me because I love Henry Fonda as an actor

[quote]Which stars of Hollywood's Golden Age were genuinely homophobic?

The gay ones were among the worst.

As in politics.

R18, Astaire was not gay. His friend and choreographer Hermes Pan was, but not Fred.

And yes, Jack Benny certainly acted gay, but I've never ever heard any stories about him and any other male actor, let alone detailed ones.

As for Kelly, there's always been claims here on the DL that he and Stanley Donen were lovers (not) and that he put out when he needed to, but if so, that probably happened VERY early in his career, pre-1944 or '45. Like probably EVERY big star, with maybe a few exceptions.

I mean, just as an example, take the cast of Dallas. With the exception of Barbara Bel Geddes and Larry Hagman, and possibly Patrick Duffy (who'd had his own series prior to that), how in the hell were the others chosen? Can't be their acting ability...

R38, no dear. I mean MISS Helen Lawson, not some pale imitation like Edythe Marrener.

Gene Kelly wasn’t gay, but certainly enjoyed the attention of a male suitor from time to time. He had a very clandestine affair with the very heterosexual Johnny Carson throughout most of the 1960s. Gene told several close associates that Johnny was very well endowed and basically could get you off from across the room. The two men basically just met up and fucked when they were in town together at the same time. Nothing else, just sex buddies.

^^And that doesn't make him gay?

I think Bette Davis and Mae West were peeved about how the gay community was making them into camp figures, feeling their legacies were being ruined. Mae was vocal about not liking the countless drag impersonators and not finding them amusing at all. Bette claimed she was flattered by "some' of them, but I imagine she grew tired of being mocked since she always took her career very seriously.

Another reason for Mae West’s anger towards homosexuals was that historians were beginning to call her out for stealing lines and material from homosexuals. Apparently, many of her early plays were basically improvised by the cast. She kept the good bits and took all of the credit.

Gene Kelly also had an affair with Vincente Minnelli

[quote]titbit

This misspelling is a particular pet peeve of mine, right up there with people pronouncing "shih tzu" as "SHIT zoo."

(quote) In many ways homosexuality is a danger to the entire social system of Western civilization. Certainly a nation should be made aware of its presence — without moral mottoes — and its effects on children recruited to it in their innocence. I had no objection to it as a cult of jaded inverts... involved only with themselves. It was its secret, anti-social aspects I wanted to bring into the sun. As a private pressure group it could, and has, infected whole nations.

The problem with above R60 and R61, is that West alludes to the idea that gays recruit children, which is unforgivable.

R18, I think a lot of people, both in Hollywood and out, were somewhat accepting of gays if the gays got married to women and lead what they considered a "normal" life. Jack Benny seems to have fit that description, and when you watch some of his movies and TV shows, he was hardly in the closet, but that plausible deniability of being in a hetero marriage and having all the gayness come across as humor gave him cover.

Judy said a few homophobic things towards the end in a couple of unfortunate interviews where she was obviously either ill from drugs or on drugs, and I'm not sure how seriously to take it.

Gene Kelly and Stanley Donen WERE lovers and someone who secured most of the Howard Strickling files shared several memos about that with me - for a very steep price. Apparently a book is in the works that details a great deal that has never been previously revealed.

Stricking had quite a time covering up Kelly's indiscretions with everyone from studio hairstylist (Sydney Guilaroff), to Van Johnson and Tom Drake. Kelly even had a dalliance with Dan Dailey, when the well-known drag queen, worked with him on a film in the 1950's. Kelly openly flirted with just about anyone on the Metro lot and earned the eternal scorn of Louis B. Mayer as a result.

Mayer had no issue with someone being gay. He was friendly with and respected the talents of many gay and bi-sexual men who worked on the Culver City lot including Adrian, Cedric Gibbons, Guilaroff, after a bumpy start, Charles Walters, Vincente and even Billy Haines once he was no longer in front of the camera. Kelly, however, like Nelson Eddy before him, took too many ricks that threatened to become public knowledge and create serious financial issues as well as undermining the studio Mayer wished to present to the public.

Is Stricking the one that came up with that crazy idea for Keenan Wynn's wife to divorce him and marry Van Johnson?

Rhonda Fleming, Charlton Heston, Mickey Rooney, Pat Boone, Donna Douglas, Buddy Ebson, Efrem Zimbalist Jr., Lola Falana, Ricardo Monteban, Ernest Borgnine, Steve Allen & his famous wife, Shirley Jones & hubby Marty Engals have all done religious right programming that have bashed us in their "news segments" over the years.

Also what is the final year of "The Golden Age"?

It is an accepted variant, r63.

[quote]Joseph Cotton was rumored to be black passing as white.

He looked like a light-skin black man. Think Wentworth Miller. He had very kinky hair.

[quote] As I've said many times before, Andy Devine was one of the biggest homophobes in Hollywood.

Then what the Hell was he doing in [italic]Myra Breckinridge[/italic]? Gore Vidal must have been one of the most self-loathing men who ever lived.

R63, "titbit" is a normal British version of "tidbit." It should be in the "Words that give the poster away as British" thread, if it's not already.

R66, more dish please!

r69 The Golden Age was when the Hollywood studio system was firmly in control -- about 30 years from the mid-20s to the mid-50s.

r68 Are you sure about Shirley Jones? It's surprising since she was married and had 3 children with a gay man -- Jack Cassidy.

Shirley refused to do an AIDS benefit concert for which she was to be paid very, very well. Her rep said she would rather do a benefit for "...a cause that benefits regular folks and isn't specifically targeting gays..."

Always wondered how these country clubs could keep Jews out. Did they ask to see your penis? Did they do a dna test?

What if you’d changed your name? If you got in and they found out you were Jewish did they kick you out?

[quote] referred to the "perverted" "Midnight Cowboy" as "a film about two fags."

What exactly is inaccurate about this description?

Both Ernest Borgnine and Tony Curtis seemed to take exception to Brokeback Mountain and both thought it was necessary to drag John Wayne into it. And both downplayed it later on.

My partner and I met John Wayne in 1975. WE had lunch with him and he seemed to delight in the company of two 21 year old gays, who were experiencing their first live-in relationships.

He asked us questions about how we'd met (a gay bar in Boston), picked-up the tab and suggested we all pose together for a photo. He stood in the middle between us and laughed saying, "Your friends are going to think that we had a three-way..."

I did not detect anything that would indicate he was homophobic.

John Wayne was a fag. I installed two-way mirrors in his pad in Brentwood, and he come to the door in a dress.

I think with some of the women in particular, they saw all of the hook-ups and seductions, but didn’t really grasp that it was innate. From that vantage point, I think it’s kind of easy to think gays seduced or corrupted men into homosexuality.

Wayne supposedly detested Clift on the set of RED RIVER, as far back as 1947.

[quote]Judy said a few homophobic things towards the end in a couple of unfortunate interviews where she was obviously either ill from drugs or on drugs, and I'm not sure how seriously to take it.

They say a drunk mind speaks sober thoughts so...

R81 Is that a true story? If so, that’s surreal! Can I ask how old you were at that time? And are you still with your partner from that time?

R81 I just saw that you said you were 21. Sorry ignore that question.

When you look at the Ernest Borgnine clip, what's telling is the reaction from the audience, they were laughing. Borgnine lived to be in his 90s and was probably 80+ at the time so he is one of those people who grew up in another time and place. Homophobia was the default setting. The audience members, not so much.

Didn't Kirk Douglas bully his son Eric for being gay?

Kirk was one of the most homophobic actors in the history of Hollywood!!! A real nasty piece of work. He publicly humiliated and mocked MGM's "Star Hairstylist" during the making of "The Bad and the Beautiful"!!!

Well, Kirk was blessed with a beautiful gay grandson, Dylan.

Didn't Roddy McDowall aid Bette Davis in the later years of her life? And didn't Mae West have a similar situation with a gay handler or helper of sorts?

It's very strange to me how certain women can be so negative about gay men and yet still need us to take care of them.

[quote]Shirley refused to do an AIDS benefit concert for which she was to be paid very, very well. Her rep said she would rather do a benefit for "...a cause that benefits regular folks and isn't specifically targeting gays..."

I Googled "Shirley Jones" and "AIDS benefit" and the first three hits were her headlining AIDS benefits on both coasts, so ... ?

(quote)"titbit" is a normal British version of "tidbit." It should be in the "Words that give the poster away as British" thread, if it's not already.

Close R73, I'm Irish

(93) Well she didn't do the one I produced in 2007 despite getting rave referenced from a slew of celebrities who had supported my AIDS Service Organization with appearances in previous years, so.....

Mickey Mouse called me a mincing fairy.

R93 She might 've come around to do them when it was more acceptable.

Donna Summer came crawling back to us in the early 90s when others weren't buying her products.

[quote]Well she didn't do the one I produced in 2007 despite getting rave referenced from a slew of celebrities who had supported my AIDS Service Organization with appearances in previous years, so.....

Thanks. I wasn't doubting your word, just curious to see if there had been a Deidre Hallesque brouhaha over Shirley.

R98 Did Shirley wear the ribbon?

Shirley Temple called Arthur Treacher a Limey Poofter behind his back on the sets of The Little Princess and Heidi.

Does anybody have a link to Shirley Temple Black explicitly endorsing gay rights? I've seen one or two posts on DL about her been pro-gay rights, but a google brings up very little.

R101 She was a far right republican

so I would say don't hold your breath.

Shirley Jones admitted to having sex with a woman at Jack Cassidy's request and she was well aware of his gay dalliances.

[quote]Shirley Jones admitted to having sex with a woman at Jack Cassidy's request

A Partridge on a beaver?

“Fonda turned on him and said: “What do you know about men, you fat, ugly faggot!” R54“

So are you saying he was your typical Datalounger speaking about anyone over the age of 21?

Esther Williams owns this thread.

I remember reading years ago that Bette Davis was very friendly with gay porn star Johnny Dawes (real name Brian Lee) (doubt she knew about his porn career but you never know) and was very kind to him when he became sick.

This has nothing to do with the theme of the thread but I was reminded of it because of the post about Mae West and to a lesser degree Bette Davis female impersonators.

Babs was asked about female impersonators who did her and her response was "I wish they were more pretty".

R107, I'm sure they feel the same way about her.

I saw Bette Davis in her road show during the 70s and she was all praise when questioned about her gay following during the Q & A session with audience. She claimed that some of the most ingenious and creative people she knew were gay. Not that she wasn't dismissive when it suited her.

And there's this.

Ann Miller did make that comment about Vincente Minnelli once being a fairy - he's ready to fly out the window - that the Golden Girls copied. But her best pal was Hermes Pan so I don't think she had a huge problem with gays. Maybe just the flamboyant ones like Vincente.

All of them.

A lot of people will have no trouble with gays (or people of color or certain religions) until they get mad about something, then the insults start flying.

I don't think these things can be thought of in black & white. (No pun). Society as a whole was hostile towards homosexuals back then. And these stars were simply a product of their time period. They worked in The Arts surrounded by "fruits & nuts" and befriended them. But a homophobic slur/slight/insult might occur occasionally occur and nothing was thought of it. That's not homophobia, it was ignorance.

Case in point....even bisexual Joan Crawford, who spent her entire adult life befriending Gay Men & occasionally sleeping with other women, had her "homophobic" moments. She reportedly acted coldly towards pioneering director & open Lesbian, Dorothy Arzner on the set of 1937's "The Bride Wore Red" According to one of Joan's biographies, she remarked to a friend something to the effect of "I've had a few rolls in the hay with other women in my day, but that bulldyke [Dorothy Arzner] makes my skin crawl!"

R133 Good God, a photo of Joan without a cigarette in her hand.

Joan looked lovely in "The Bride Wore Red".

R106, I read she walked out on her lover because he was a transvestite, but that's more to do about ignorance regarding cross-dressing rather than hostility to the gay community.

I'm not sure about Taylor or Garland but was Crawford openly supportive given the times? That's the point someone made on thread a while back. She was open minded or at least tolerant in private but not publicly and, given the era in which she lived, that was understandable. The point I'm trying to make is, was she really so special? I adore her, but she was probably ten a penny

I think a lot of celebs are like frau BFFs—they love you as long as you are useful and stay in your lane. But never believe they fully respect you or see you (or your relationships) as equal. It’s a hard lesson to learn, but it’s something black folks have known when dealing with a lot of whites—you may be accepted, even cherished, but never stop being the “other”.

Buddy Ebsen. He did a commercial against Nancy Culp when she was running for office but Brian Kerwin told an interesting story. He was going to be on a Buddy Ebsen pilot and Ebsen had seen him in Torch Song Trilogy. He said that Ebsen was upset because he thought they were going to "have a fag on the show". Kerwin wasn't gay but Ebsen later told him that he sometimes wanted to hug his gay friends but was afraid they'd misinterpret it.

[quote]But her best pal was Hermes Pan

She even considered him the worlds greatest choreographer.

Buddy was in Broadway Melody of 1936 dancing with his sister, Vilma. This was the first and only time they appeared together on film. Robert Taylor and Jack Benny were also in it. Benny was gay and I have always assumed Taylor was, too. Ed Long Jr, the dancer - who was also gay - was in it. He danced with Una Merkle and Eleanor Powell. I wonder if Buddy wasn't gay, as well. Nick Long Jr was one of the greatest dancers of the time. All of the Buddy's dances with comedy routines. It's a great film and I recommend it.

Nick Long was an attractive guy

R58, BS. Kelly was close to impotency in the 60's and Carson wasn't far behind, but thanks for the funny story.

R62, that tired cliche again?

R66, the "I Paid Big Bucks to see Howard Strickling's Secret Files for a book that's apparently in the works" Troll.

I dunno R66. If any of that were true, why didn't Esther Williams out Kelly like she did Dan Dailey? She DESPISED Kelly, and trashed him in other ways in her autobiography. Why in the world didn't she mention his affairs, especially if they were so numerous?

The stuff about Kelly having an affair with Vicente Minnelli was in some Judy Garland bios

"Some bios". Then name them.

From one post (among other similar ones) on an old Minelli thread:

"The late great Betsy Blair, who was married to Gene Kelly from 1940 until 1959 or so, vehemently denied in print (in her autobiog) and in person when asked if Gene and Minnell had an affair, or even if Gene was gay.

And Arthur Laurents, who was a member of the Kelly's Saturday afternoon volleyball crowd and Sunday night house party crowd, and was an out gay man in the 40s (his lover, who also came to the events, was Farley Granger) has also said in print and in person that Kelly was not only NOT gay, but a bit homophobic."

R126, gay people can make homophobic comments

And you think Gene Kelly's wife would be honest about his same sex affairs?

[quote]And Arthur Laurents, who was a member of the Kelly's Saturday afternoon volleyball crowd and Sunday night house party crowd, and was an out gay man in the 40s (his lover, who also came to the events, was Farley Granger) has also said in print and in person that Kelly was not only NOT gay, but a bit homophobic."

Actually, Laurents in his memoir remarks that it was odd that Kelly would say anything homophobic, given the rumors about him. He does not, however, opine on the veracity of those rumors.

He does make Kelly seem very thirsty and petty. At one of his parties, Noel Coward was getting too much attention at the piano, so Gene started furiously dancing about the living room to draw focus. Sort of pathetic. Like something Jerry Lewis would do.

R126, one is Get Happy by Gerald Clark

Doris Day was quite reserved in real life and while not really anti-gay, she wasn't overtly supportive. She stated in later years that she had no clue that Rock Hudson was gay and was very concerned for him when he made his last public appearance with her and was very ill - her son stated that she wanted to nurse him back to health. I suspect that Doris had a warm sport in her heart for gays, as she did for just about everyone, but she was more interested in helping animals than people.

R130 Billy De Wolf, a gay character actor from years ago, made some movies with Doris Day and they became friends. Years later she didn't forget him and had him guest star on her TV show a number of times. He was a real character!

I think Doris Day knew Rock was gay but pretended no to know to please her church friends, who'd probably shit on her for knowingly befriending a gay person

Yes, R117, Joan Crawford was openly supportive. After her best friend Billy Haines was essentially fired for refusing to be in the closet, she backed him in his new career as an interior decorator, and she called him and his boyfriend the happiest married couple in Hollywood.

However, she also said this about Whatever Happened to Baby Jane:

"It's become a cult favorite, not just for the fag-hounds that will go to anything Bette Davis appears in, but to civilized audiences that recognize a movie for what it's worth. I really can't say anything against Bette--but I'm damned glad I'm not being represented in fag circles, like Tallulah Bankhead, the way she is. I never wanted to be some sort of joke, and thank God, I haven't been."

[quote]I really can't say anything against Bette--but I'm damned glad I'm not being represented in fag circles, like Tallulah Bankhead, the way she is. I never wanted to be some sort of joke, and thank God, I haven't been.

Oh, bitter, stupid, jealous Joanie, if you only knew!

Doris living close to my partner's family. She used to bring bits of steak over and my partner and Doris would feed them to their dog, Steph. Living in Beverly Hills they were all friends and treated each other just like normal 'folks' and friendly neighbors. Obviously, he liked Doris and has nothing but good things to say about her. As I have posed before his partners were also close friends with Lucy and Gary Morton. They were members of the same country club and his dad used to play golf with Gary at least once a week. He used to play board games with Lucy in the clubhouse when his dad and Gary were out on the course. He knew Gene Kelly and - like Paul Neuman - doesn't think he was gay. He knew both Gene and his wife.

Don't look at us, fags.

Barbara Streisand

"...but I'm damned glad I'm not being represented in fag circles, like Tallulah Bankhead, the way she is. I never wanted to be some sort of joke, and thank God, I haven't been,"

Was she serious? She's like our #1 Old Hollywood figure of fun! She's eclipsed Bette!

[quote]"...but I'm damned glad I'm not being represented in fag circles, like Tallulah Bankhead, the way she is. I never wanted to be some sort of joke, and thank God, I haven't been,"

* Chandler Bing voice *

Have you SEEN "Female on the Beach"? "Berserk"? "Trog"?

[quote]"...but I'm damned glad I'm not being represented in fag circles, like Tallulah Bankhead, the way she is. I never wanted to be some sort of joke, and thank God, I haven't been,"

NO! WIRE! HANGERS!!!!!

Crawford was right when she said she was not a camp figure like Bette and Tallulah -- at the time. It was after her death and Faye Dunaway's interpretation of her in Mommie Dearest that gave impersonators the ammo for mockery with the bipolar ravings, the overdone makeup and hair, and the wire hangers.

Doris Day was very close to many gay men and knew Rock was gay but refused to publicly discuss her friends and their personal lives.

When Billy De Wolfe was dying, Doris helped to care for him as he had no immediate family. Van Johnson came out to her when they found themselves in Cannes together in 1955 and she never publicly commented about him because he asked her not to. He did guest on her CBS comedy series twice in the early 70's.

Hollywood hairstylist Sydney Guilaroff was also a close personal friend as was Charles Walters, who she worked with on two films and socialized with. Ditto Ross Hunter.

But did Hudson discuss his sexual orientation with Day, or was it just an unspoken truth between them? In any case there does seem to be some disagreement regarding whether she knew or not.

r20 Grant Williams was gay. He went out of his way to say he wasn't in interviews. When I was about 20, he tried to get me into bed. He was exactly 30 years older than me and I couldn't conceive of having sex with a guy older than about 25 then. He was a sad case, talented and handsome, but so closeted. He'll be remembered for starring in The Incredible Shrinking Man. Here he is in Red Sundown, made about five years before I was born. He has a nice scene at about 54:00.

R144, wow, that's interesting. I always thought he might be a 'mo (never married or seriously linked to any female)...that's sad that he was so self-hating

R127, yes I do. Betsy Blair was dying and had nothing to gain from lying...unlike Dyan Cannon and their daughter.

Dying people can lie....it's also possible that he hid his same sex affairs and she genuinely didn't know.

r145 Grant Williams was initially under contract to Universal. The studio tried to get him to go on publicized "dates" with several of their starlets, but he wouldn't cooperate. He went to most industry functions alone and left alone, according to gossip. When I was about 20, I went to an AMPAS screening and he was there. Talking in a group after the film, he mentioned he'd gotten a ride there with a friend. Since we both lived in Hollywood, I offered him a ride home. On the pretext of showing me stills of deleted scenes from Shrinking Man, he invited me up to his apartment, where he made an awkward attempt to seduce me. I just found the whole thing embarrassing. After his death, I read a lengthy article about him in the LA Times. It said in his later years (when I met him), he had gotten so paranoid that he kept guns hidden in several places in his apartment. Reading that scared me shitless.

^ Wow, that's sad. The closet isn't a happy place to be.

Grant Williams was hot when he was young. Did he ever get it on with Robert Conrad on the Hawaiian Eye set?

" Williams died at the Veteran’s Administration Hospital after being treated for blood poisoning (toxemia). Allegedly his mother’s death a short time earlier might have contributed to a bout of excessive drinking. Williams told a friend that when he flew to New York to be by his mother’s side on her deathbed he asked her if she loved him. She replied, “I hate you.” He was 53-years-old."

OUCH.

r150 I never heard any gossip that Robert Conrad was gay. However, a Conrad/Williams pairing would have been fantastic. Because of his conflicted, secretive life, I doubt Grant Williams ever had a satisfying sexual relationship with anyone. In his acting, even in some of the utter schlock that were his last films, he's always committed and sincere, which makes his story even more tragic. He never had the success or happiness that he deserved. Truly a sad life.

R145, I never heard of him before, but Grant Williams was hot!

R139 is the most homophobic person on this thread.

R152, there have been numerous stories about Robert Conrad. Aside from the obvious "what he had to do to get into the business" stories, in later life, he allegedly had a thing for blond guys. The creepy thing is that his "type" is pretty much an exact description of his sons, particularly Shane. Again, allegedly, he was so filled with self loathing that he would beat the shit out of the guys after sex.

Looking over all the comments, people are posting both pro- and antigay posts about various movie people. The truth is, during the "classic" Hollywood period, people in the business generally reflected wider society's disdain of gays in general. However, in a business that had many gay members, the straights were usually accepting of individual gays, and could even form close friendships with them. Both my father and grandfather worked in films and had close friendships with many prominent film people. They were our family friends and I was privy to all sorts of intimate and personal anecdotes and gossip. Since I'm gay, I was always very sensitive to possible homophobic behavior or opinions. There was surprisingly little, even from unabashed rightwing types. People, of course, tailored their expressions to their audience. My parents were known to be quite liberal, so rightwingers, even near-fascists, kept quiet about expressing any antigay opinions around us. There were also two well-established gay men who set a very good example to the straight world and made things immeasurably better for gay people. These two were the director, George Cukor, and the actor, Roddy McDowall. Both of them were so genial and good-mannered that they impressed everyone with their civility. George was generally regarded as the elder statesman of Hollywood and commanded near-universal respect. Roddy was known as the only person in Hollywood with no enemies. George died in 1983 and Roddy died in 1998. No one has taken their place. I worked in the film business until I semi-retired about ten years ago. Today, I think film people are coarser and less well-mannered than years ago. Although expressing antigay sentiments is less socially acceptable in society in general today, it's paradoxically more common among certain Hollywood types. It's seen as being "honest" even if regrettable. Also, because the film community is less cohesive and familial than it was in the past, there's a greater variety of opinion and people seem unafraid to express any sort of strong opinion.

r155 That's interesting about Robert Conrad. If true, I can imagine some interesting tensions that must have arisen on the Hawaiian Eye set. I should qualify what I wrote above about growing up in the film community to say that my family also had an anti-gossip culture. There were probably lots of things my parents or grandparents heard that weren't repeated to me. Once, when I repeated a bit of gossip I'd heard, my grandmother sat me down and told me of a rumor that had made the rounds years earlier. She told me of two industry insiders who had completely contradictory versions of a scandalous event. The two "insiders" were Norma Shearer and Irene Dunne (major stars in their day but possibly unknown to most of you). The point was that two "solid" and "respectable" people in the business could purvey completely erroneous information. In his Hollywood Babylon books, Kenneth Anger made a career out of repeating false information.

I used to see Norma Shearer and her husband, Martin, at Nibblers, a popular Beverly Hills restaurant, in the latter 70's before Norma became seriously ill and entered the Motion Picture Home.

I remember one evening arriving there after seeing a Jeanette MacDonald film at the Vagabond Theatre. I mentioned it to Miss Shearer and said I hoped they'd show some of her films, especially "Marie Antoinette" a personal favorite of mine.

She came vividly alive when I mentioned the title and then said, "Darling Jeanette. She was a dear friend. But that Nelson Eddy. He had a glorious voice but he chased just about every man on the lot..."

Rock Hudson.

I read a book of interviews. All golden era celebs. One was with Van Johnson. The interview was around the time Rock Hudson died. Van started the interview by saying he wouldn’t talk about that faggot Rock Hudson. The interviewer outs Van in the introduction & states he loathed Van. Anyway.

Apparently Spencer Tracey was obsessed with Van Johnson. Talk about bad taste.

R159 the van interview - and many others - in the book y James Bawden titled Conversations With Classic Film Stars.

R156, we had somewhat similar childhoods, though my name dropping is more of the Jerry Paris, Paul Heller, Joanna Pettet level. ( ok, I do have an Irene Dunne story but it doesn’t apply here.).

I heard the Robert Conrad story from reliable sources who would not be inclined make up gossip. Basically, it was a reason to NOT hire someone his type for fear it might disrupt production.

I don't think Noima's remarks about Nelson Eddy were homophobic since she counted among her friends, an array of gay men including Adrian, Sydney Guilaroff, Cedric Gibbons, Billy Haines, and many more. Irene Dunne gave a similar response about Eddy when asked what she thought about MGM plans to film "Show Boat" with MacDonald and Eddy. "Jeanette's a longtime friend and would be wonderful but you need a real man to play Gaylord and Nelson doesn't exactly fit that category". (This was said many years after the fact and after MGM waited on the project and shot it in 1951).

r157 I remember Nibblers. I used to occasionally drive my mother out to the Motion Picture Home to visit Norma Shearer, among others.

r160 I heard quite a few stories of Spencer Tracy cruising Van Johnson in the MGM commissary.

r162 I can't remember if it was my father or grandfather who said this, but his opinion was that Irene Dunne wasn't better known because she had the "misfortune" to have appeared in an inordinate number of major hits. These films were so popular that the studios (RKO and Columbia, as I remember) suppressed them after a few years because they wanted to remake them with newer stars. Leaving Dunne's films in circulation might have diminished the marketability of the newer version......Really fascinating about Robert Conrad. He was great looking, but never interested me much. Now that I've heard these rumors, I'm developing a real interest in him.

I used to drive Sydney Guilaroff out to the Home to see Norma. He would ask me if I wanted to come in but I always declined. I preferred to remember her from her films or even from Nibblers when she was still reasonably in good health. Sydney always returned to the car in tears since there were times she knew him and other times she had no idea who he was.

I was confusing William Conrad with Robert Conrad, and getting quite confused about some of these comments!

"...we had somewhat similar childhoods, though my name dropping is more of the Jerry Paris, Paul Heller, Joanna Pettet level..."

Can't get much lower than that!

Dickie, thanks for your detailed, informative post. I find it kind of hard to believe that McDowall had 'no enemies'. Was that because he, shall we say, followed your grandma's rules?

Of course we all know Julie Andrews doesn’t hate gay people. After all, she married one.

That sucks that Van Johnson would call Rock Hudson names. It's sad how deep the self-loathing ran in some of these guys

r168 Yes, I never heard Roddy say a mean-spirited thing about anyone. He was an incredibly good-hearted person and immensely likable.

I am now starting to think that Roddy McDowall died of embarrassment the first time he logged onto DL.

Van Johnson was an asshole. MGM paired him with the already married wife of Keenan Wynn as his beard. They divorced and Van married her immediately. A sham and extremely immoral. Stayed in the closet his entire life.

Julie actually married two (Tony Walton, her first husband, was bi-sexual).

A couple more and she could’ve matched the cast of [italic]the Facts of Life[/italic].

Did Olivia De Havilland or Joan Fontaine ever pass comment on gay men or lesbians?

r172 Roddy McDowall was a lot of fun. He loved to gossip, but he never said anything malicious. I can't imagine him taking part in DL. His gossip mainly consisted of humorous stories, often about himself. He was more than 30 years older than me, and I was a world-class ageist in my teens and twenties. I made an exception in the case of Roddy because he was so much fun. I often went to his house in Studio City for barbecues. Most guests were gay, but not entirely. He and Preston Foster were said to have the biggest cocks in Hollywood.

Forrest Tucker was no slouch in the size department either!!!

r174 Here's a story relayed by the late gossip columnist, Joyce Haber: There was a lot of tension on the set of the Blake Edwards/Julie Andrews film, Darling Lili. Rock Hudson was the male lead. Edwards and Andrews apparently made several homophobic comments about Hudson, making sure he could overhear them. During a long holiday weekend break from filming, Hudson flew up to San Francisco for a little R&R. He was in a gay bar one evening and ran into......Blake Edwards.

In fairness, I think there is a bit of a difference between what Shearer said and Dunne's comment, R163. Interesting question, R176.

R173, Van Johnson was arrested in a YMCA for having sexual contact with an underage boy.

Louis B. Mayer had the MGM legal department hush it up.

R177, On his deathbed, Roddy brought together Elizabeth Taylor and Sybil Burton for the first time.

r176 I never heard about any antigay attitudes from Olivia de Havilland or Joan Fontaine. I'd kind of doubt it and am a fan of both. To continue my name-dropping, my grandfather was an executive producer at Paramount. One of the films he was involved with was De Havilland's The Heiress. It was supposedly my grandfather's idea to use Aaron Copland for the score, although William Wyler also claimed responsibility. Joan Fontaine had been a neighbor of my parents. When the Bel-Air Fire occurred, her house burned down. I think my mother said Fontaine was selling the house and it was actually in escrow when it was destroyed. Our house wasn't damaged. I was about five months old when all this happened.

R183, I feel we ought to know each other. We are nearly the same age. I also went to parties at Roddy MacDowall's house, but I am fairly certain that I would remember someone my own age. He probably had A-list, B-list, and C-lists for parties. I was probably the C-list and you rated higher. (Also, I don't remember the parties I attended being particularly Gay.)

You are correct that he never gossiped as we would think of it unless it was something ancient like Mary Miles Minter. The closet to gossip was that he told me Natalie Wood's death was an accident. Somehow, I think he would know.

My Irene Dunne story isn't that exciting. She wanted to enroll a boy in the school I attended. I have no idea what the relationship was. He seemed far too "rough around the edges" to be a relative. In fact, in spite of the suit and tie, even my teenage self thought he seemed like a hustler off of Sunset Blv. The application was rejected because he was "too worldly".

R167, I actually can get lower: Ted Jordan. He was the on-off lover of Marylin Monroe and married to Lili St. Cyr and on Gunsmoke for ages.

Not a golden age star, but Lillian Gish was profoundly homophobic. She is one of my all time favorite actresses. I knew her during the last 13 years of her life.

R185, Wasn't Lillian Gish a lesbian? Never married, no known to the public relationship with a man.

r184 Roddy may have had tiered guest lists for parties. Lots of people in Hollywood did. I know I was invited to a lot of events simply because of my parents and grandparents. On my own, I probably would have been excluded. Some people even had A, B, and C lists for their Christmas cards.

r185 I didn't know that about Lillian Gish and I'm sorry to hear it. I'm another fan of hers.

I only met Miss Gish once - in 1986 while she was filming "The Whales of August" in Maine.

I was living in Maine that summer/fall while playing piano at a piano bar in Ogunquit. I was invited to visit the location where they were filming, north of Ogunquit, near Portland.

I brought along my current boyfriend who was very flamboyant and Miss Gish was delighted by our company and my stories about the piano bar. "I love a good piano bar and the wonderful characters who frequent them", she noted.

I didn't see any signs of homophobia but perhaps we were so charming that it didn't matter!!!

She gave me her address and I sent a thank you note a few weeks later and she responded with a handwritten card which appeared to be written by her only because the penmanship seemed to belong to someone who would be ninety plus.

Lillian Gish was friends with Gielgud, even after his t-room arrest

R186 Variety and other sources have previously reported that Gish had a long-term affair (about a decade) with drama critic, George Jean Nathan. Also, her relationship with producer, Charles Duell, seemed to go beyond business, and when they had their "scandalous lawsuit" and things got personal, Variety says Gish was "pressuring friends to deny that they had ever been lovers."

R186, she had a long relationship with George Jean Nathan. It ended because he lied about being Jewish. She did not care that he was Jewish, but the fact that he lied caused her a great deal of embarrassment.

She could be charming in public, but her comments in private were homophobic.

She never mentioned Gielgud's homosexuality. I think like a lot of people of that era she could compartmentalize relationships. We did discuss his production of Hamlet. Also, Lillian had a tendency to create her own reality, which she clung to tooth and nail. If she had it in her head that something was true, nothing, even the most irrefutable facts could change her mind. Possibly she simple decided that Gielgud was not Gay and that was that.

FYI. Roddy McDowall never made a pass at me me but Gielgud and Cecil Beaton did. So much for my luck with famous men.

Gielgud hit on you? What was that like?

R186 I thought the Gish sisters were rumored to be Sapphic with each other.

R192, very gentlemanly. He basically asked if I would like to continue the conversation in the bedroom. I said no and we went on as before.

r193 I think that rumor originated with Kenneth Anger. If so, it's questionable at best.

Eddie Fisher wrote in his autobiography how much he loathed Roddy McDowall, apparently Roddy told him over the phone he didn't "act like a man" during the period his marriage to Elizabeth Taylor was on its way out. So I guess you can say not everyone in Hollywood was a fan of Roddy.

I could have sworn Jones did an Aids benefit back in the early 90s. It was in LA. A wonderful tribute to the Gershwins with Roger Reese being especially hilarious. A lot of stars. I thought I had a pic with Jones after the concert. I don't know where the pics are now.

It was put out on 2 cds. I bought it but don't remember where I put that jewel box either. A great night.

R197 She did. It was reported in the L.A. Times, January 2, 1993:

[quote] Among the company of performers set to celebrate the music and lyrics of the Gershwins include Lucie Arnaz, Betty Buckley, George Chakiris, Nancy Dussault, Penny Fuller, Gogi Grant, Sam Harris, Shirley Jones, Karen Morrow, Holly Near, Linda Purl, Roger Rees and Richard Thomas.

R195, not really. There was a 1920s novelty song that makes mention of it. Also, there was a notorious brothel in LA where one could hire celebrity look-a-likes. lesbian Gish sister were part of the act.

Supposedly Babs early in her career said after Jason was born that she didn't want her gay friends near him because she didn't want him to turn gay. A different time as we are always saying.

Lilian Burns in one of her interviews on you tube said Van was a very wonderful person until his popularity started waning whereby he became rather unpleasant. Tracy refused to continue with the film A Man Named Joe until Johnson had recovered from a car accident he had been in. Back then if it was early enough in the filming a guy like Johnson could be replaced by another man from the MGM stable of juveniles. Friendship or was Tracy sleeping with Van?

I could have sworn I read about Astaire giving blowjobs in Scotty's book. I went back to a library and took it out and there was nothing there. Could Astaire's family have threatened the publisher to take it out in later editions? It struck me because It was the only thing I ever read about Astaire being gay and I've read a lot about him.

Cukor was asked directly about being fired from GWTW because Gable was uncomfortable about Cukor knowing about his past. Cukor could have said absolutely not. Instead he refused to answer.

Sorry the film is called 'A Guy Named Joe.'

Bing Crosby.

r157 & r163, the dish about Nelson Eddy is very interesting because it seems so unexpected. This is really ancient history at this point, of course. The poster who had access to the Howard Strickling files alluded to it as well in another DL thread some years back. I don't doubt Norma Shearer and Irene Dunne's comments, but it seems odd that Eddy's name has never come up in Hollywood gossip, especially if he had a reputation for chasing every man on the lot. Has anyone else heard stories about Eddy?

Strickling must have done a fantastic job as a fixer because as far as I know there was no public awareness of Eddy's being gay. (He was, however, mockingly called The Singing Capon.) He married an older and rather unattractive woman in the late 30s. They remained married until his death, though he spent a lot of time in his later years on tour in nightclubs and actually suffered a fatal attack while performing.

I have mentioned this previously on DL but there are a couple of frau websites dedicated to the proposition that Eddy and MacDonald were lifelong lovers, and one significant theme of these sites is that Eddy was a pussyhound who had numerous female lovers. The Eddy/MacDohnald relationship may also have been genuine, but heads will explode if the Strickling info ever sees print!

R191 --- Thank you for the great gossip! Do you mind telling us a bit more about Roddy's parties? If I could go back in time and do one thing in old Hollywood, it would be to go there just one time.

Frank Sinatra gave Johnny Mathis the mocking nickname The African Queen.

Frank Sinatra was a disgusting bully. Never liked him. Any man that has to be surrounded by Mafia men is pure , weak, trash. Ava Gardner could not stand those people.

Years ago I heard about Nelson Eddy cruising the baths in NYC. This was when he was older, not in his MGM days

I think Joan Crawford said something about an unnamed male star from her MGM days who was gay....I figured Eddy was the one she was referring to

Dunne's Showboat was in '36 which was when MacDonald was at her peak at MGM. By the time there would be a remake even in the early 40s Jeanette would have been too old unless she played Julie.

[quote] "It's become a cult favorite, not just for the fag-hounds that will go to anything Bette Davis appears in, but to civilized audiences that recognize a movie for what it's worth. I really can't say anything against Bette--but I'm damned glad I'm not being represented in fag circles, like Tallulah Bankhead, the way she is. I never wanted to be some sort of joke, and thank God, I haven't been." [quote]

R133, Joan Crawford, may have loosened up privately around very close friends, but in interviews (at least every written & TV interview I've seen) she comes across as professional & expertly rehearsed. She never seemed to say anything that may rock the boat & trotted out the same tired tidbits about Clark Gable being "The King", Garbo being "The Most Beauttiful" and MGM's "Little Red Schoolhouse".

The majority of the quotes credited to a supposedly relaxed, witty Joan speaking off the record can be traced back to Roy Newquist's 1980 book "Conversations With Joan Crawford". The book was supposedly based on a series of interviews that Joan had with the author during the last few years of her life. Though the book is highly entertaining, it's since been discovered that those interviews never took place. (See the customer comments from the Amazon listing I linked). The author simply wanted to cash in on the success of Christina Crawford's "Mommie Dearest" book and frame his book as a posthumous response from Joan.

Unfortunately Newquists's Crawford Fiction has crept it's way in almost every Joan Crawford book & article over the last 40 years. So R133 and everyone else, please take any quote attributed to a sassy, no-fucks-given Joan with a grain of salt.

R210, Many believe the incidents described in "Mommie Dearest" never took place.

DickieGreenleaf, was your father's name John by any chance? I think I may know you.

R211 They didn't.

r211 I'm one of the people who believes the incidents in Mommie Dearest did not happen in the way they're described. Even before Mommie Dearest was published, it was open season on Joan Crawford. People's attitudes to Crawford were almost entirely class-based and sneering at Crawford because of her lower-class origins was the norm. Joan Crawford was a friend of both my parents and grandparents. However, there was a lot of pity (and, I guess, condescension) behind their friendship. I know they saw her as an underdog who wasn't deserving of the supercilious scorn she received. I remember her but can't say I knew her. What I do remember is that she wasn't someone you could relax around. There was a real stiffness to her, because she was always playing a role and trying to live up to a particular image. Stories about her always looking and acting like a "movie star" are accurate, from what I remember. My grandmother told me a "cute" story about my father and Crawford. Crawford stopped by their house one morning to drop off some Christmas presents. Crawford was in her full movie star drag and probably slathered with makeup. While my grandmother and Crawford talked, my ten-year old father was looking at her quizzically. He then said to Crawford, "Why are you always dressed up?" Crawford laughed at this and gave some sort of explanation.

In the film version of Mommie Dearest, it's hinted that Christina was jealous of Crawford's fame. Christina was definitely a flop as an actress and was envious of her mother's achievements. The book is Christina's revenge for not being able to eclipse her mother. Quite a few people in Hollywood knew of Christina's behavioral problems when she was young. Her brother was even more of a problem child. Crawford's other two daughters (omitted from the film for legal reasons) recount an entirely different version of their childhood. They describe Crawford as a very strict, but loving, mother. That's also what numerous people, including Helen Hayes, June Allyson, and Cesar Romero said. Many people could accept that Crawford could be harsh with her children but actual physical abuse of them wasn't believable.

There's no question that Joan Crawford was a very damaged person and I'm sure that negatively affected her motherhood. Just as Christina was jealous of her mother's fame, Crawford was jealous of her children's good fortune in growing up in a wealthy household. She probably resented them for receiving the very benefits that she provided. I can relate one incident that could qualify as child abuse committed by Crawford. I can't remember if it was my parents or grandparents who witnessed this. Anyway, Crawford gave a dinner party they were at. All four of Crawford's children greeted the guests during cocktails and then went off to their rooms. After everyone was seated at dinner, Christina came in to show off "the pretty dress my mother bought me." She was then supposed to leave to go to a party elsewhere. After the guests said nice things about her dress and wished her a happy evening, Crawford told Christina that she'd changed her mind and Christina could not go out that evening. That was that. Christina meekly left the room. No matter what Christina had done to deserve this (if anything), it was humiliating for her.

Pauline Kael was a brilliant critic who also said many things I disagree with. She was definitely no fan of Joan Crawford and wrote many things about her that reek of snobbery and classism. However, one thing she wrote really sums up Joan Crawford in just a few words. She described Crawford as having "frightened eyes and an angry mouth." That's the lasting impression I have of Joan Crawford and I feel pity for her.

r212 No, my father's name wasn't John.

[Quote]She described Crawford as having "frightened eyes and an angry mouth."

Brilliant.

r162 I would love to hear your stories about Jerry Paris and others. Was Jerry gay?

r167 I would love to hear your stories about Jerry Paris and others. Was Jerry gay?

R217, He never hit on me.

I have never understood why anyone would want Jerry Paris to be gay. This comes up on Data Lounge more often than it ought to. No, he was not.

He had a gay vibe.

(204) Regarding Nelson Eddy. While the studio did a very careful job of covering up his indiscretions during his heyday, including the celebrated tryst with Tyrone Power when he was on loan from Fox to make "Marie Antoinette", Louella Parsons didn't hesitate to intimate the truth about the baritone.

"The big laugh in Hollywood these days is Nelson Eddy's feminine pursuers... Come on, Mr. Eddy, even the hinterlands are wise to you." This Parsons quote was included in a book by William Mann.

It's possible Norma Shearer's remark about Eddy might have been because she had set her sights on Tyrone Power when MGM borrowed him as her leading man. The fact that he took up with Eddy, briefly, might have earned Eddy her scorn.

Boze Hadleigh wrote about Eddy being gay in a 1995 book entitled "Hollywood Babble On" and "Who's Who in Gay and Lesbian History" notes that fact as did Anita Loos.

A 2003 book about Hollywood included the following: "What the public didn't know at the time was that Nelson Eddy was gay. Discreet in California, Eddy was frequently seen in New York at the gay baths and at gay watering holes..."

Beyond the desperately needy fraus who want their idol, Eddy, to be a man amongst men, it was general knowledge within the industry during his lifetime that he was gay. He died in 1967 before the era when he might have been publicly outed. However, at the age of 65, nobody would have cared in all likelihood, one way or the other. He wasn't a terribly interesting person.

R126, I'm not who you asked, but the two main bios in question are Mark Griffin's bio of Minnelli from 2010, and Emanuel Levy's bio from 2009.

R222 it would not surprise me; but Vincente Minnelli was bisexual or gay, and Gene Kelly might have been as well? I am not sure?

R221, Wasn't Gene Raymond, Jeanette MacDonald's husband, also gay?

Wasn't George Cukor also known for having nude swimming parties at his home? I think I read somewhere that the apparently very well-endowed Forrest Tucker made himself very apparent by going to those to help his career. Any other well-known people who either hosted nude parties or attended them? Of course in Cole Porter's "Anything Goes" lyric, he talks about "nudist parties at studio". Anyone know about who (straight or gay) were known to have attended or hosted those? It's kind of cool to think about who was uninhibited back then in real life when for the most part the Hays Code censored everything on screen.

There were rumors both that Jeanette and Eddy hated each other and that they were lovers, too. Plus Eddy resembled her real-life husband, actor Gene Raymond as well, and that they may have or may not have been lovers, too. So much has been written, but who knows for sure? I just mainly enjoy their performances though.

Anything written by Bose Hadleigh must be taken with a large grain If salt, R221.

[quote] In Hadleigh's book Broadway Babylon, Madeline Kahn is quoted as saying: "Nathan Lane has a wonderful sensibility for comedy...It does rather surprise me that as a gay man he participates in that degree of homophobic humor in The Producers." Madeline Kahn died in 1999; Nathan Lane only was signed to appear in The Producers in October 2000.

[quote] In the book Leading Ladies, referring to the film Brief Encounter, Hadleigh writes: "Sir Nöel did not believe any of the remakes worked nearly as well, including the highly publicised 1975 British telefilm starring Sophia Loren and Richard Burton." However, Noël Coward died in March 1973.

R221, even in 1967 no stars were out. Even regular people back then were rarely out

r225 Yes, George Cukor was known for his Sunday afternoon/evening all-gay pool parties at his home on Cordell Drive, above Sunset. I went to a few of his all-gay parties, but I was a little too young to have experienced what was apparently the heyday of his gay entertaining. Also, since he was good friends with my parents and grandparents, I think he felt a bit reticent about having me at some of these gatherings. I might have been intentionally left out of the more fun affairs. I was on the UCLA swim team, so I had the kind of body he liked to have around. I've heard of all-nude parties at his place. It wasn't like that at the few parties I attended, but all the guys there wore Speedos or something even skimpier.

R5 Sinatra knew Sammy was bisexual. I doubt he was homophobic. Perhaps just a product of his time.

r225 Wasn't Forrest Tucker a notorious criminal?🤔😲

R230, Frank Sinatra half-jokingly referred to both Sammy Davis Jr. & Johnny Mathis as "The African Queens." I'm hesitant to label many people from that time period as homophobic but Sinatra had his biases and was a product of his time.

With that said, "Ole Blue Eyes" may have been a bastard but if he loved you he was FIERCELY loyal to you for life. And he loved SDJ until the day he died.

GQ once asked David Bowie about him being given the "new Sinatra" tag, and whether he could easily hang it on himself. He replied:

[quote] "Oh, he would not be happy with that! Sinatra's daughter, Nancy, once stupidly suggested that I play him in a movie. God, he hated that. 'I don't want a fag playing me!' He was absolutely terrified that I might be taken seriously. He hated long hair, hated anything limey!"

To add to R232's comment, Sinatra also had a black valet he referred to among friends as The African Queen. It was a cheap shot but he got a lot of mileage out of it, that old Wop.

Yeah, Dickie/R214, I don't think Crawford was as she was portrayed in Mommie Dearest, although there was probably a middle ground. And yes, she wasn't a mean person, but could be vindictive, but that's because she was SO terrified of being unloved and unpopular. One doesn't drink all day long because they're content.

Perhaps Joan was bored, too, and it was another reason she drank. Maybe she was lonely, too

R214 you seem to be going fairly soft on Crawford and I don't know why. Allyson has a quite scathing story about Crawford and how she treated Christina which she recounted on the Dick Cavett show. Natalie Schaffer has a story about Joan and her son which was horrible child abuse. Douglas Fairbanks Jr had a story about Joan that when they got married he was undressing and he threw his socks on the floor and Joan went ballistic. Imagine what she would have put children through? As you know there are other stories as well told by other celebrities after Joan's death about Joan's children which avowed that they were very lonely and abused. Christina even said her brother suffered far worse than she did. No wonder he was so troubled. Being unwanted for whatever reason by his own parents and then being adopted by the mother from hell.

I think the owners of the school Christina attended also backed up her claims. Joan was a harsh, vindictive bully.

So who was hung among the nude Los Angeles movie parties? Or at least, who was there, so we can imagine?

George Cukor had his "straight" top take care of him for years then left most of his estate to him. He must have been at those parties.

I assume Aldo Ray was one of them. He was honest about putting out for Cukor if that was what George wanted. It beat working on a dock or in a warehouse. Cukor was no oil painting but neither was he James Levine or Harvey Weinstein. Who has the stomach for that?

R225 This is from the linked-to article about Cukor:

[quote] My favorite anecdote: Hunky, young Forrest Tucker, who was straight, would show up at Cukor’s parties and swim naked in the pool for the viewing pleasure of Cukor’s famous gay guests such as Noël Coward, or Cecil Beaton or other assorted influential gay guys from the art, literature, and theatre scenes. Tucker realized these men were important contacts. He was one of the many up-and-coming young actors who were willing to make a naked appearance for the sake of their careers. A favorite of the group was handsome, hunky, hairy Aldo Ray, whom Cukor seemed to like well enough to cast in Pat And Mike (1952) and The Marrying Kind (1952) with Judy Holliday.

r242 Thank you for your detailed reply but I am still confused because when I Google that name an actor doesn't come up but a notorious American criminal?

r235, r237 I don't think I've "gone soft" on Joan Crawford. I've tried to convey that she wasn't the cartoon monster of popular imagination and that there were many deficiencies in her life that made her the way she was. I know she could be very rigid about things and she had a strong streak of vindictiveness. She was also a perfectionist and couldn't stand what she thought was imperfection in other people. She had incredible anger within her and, unfortunately, took it out on some friends and even her children. Something I've noticed in her acting, which mars a number of her films, is a point at which her character reacts to a criticism or perceived slight. Her face is overtaken by incredible hostility and anger. It's completely over the top and my first thought is always, "That woman is fucking crazy." She had no subtlety in her character. She treated people, including her own children, without subtlety or nuance. As I related, she could be harsh to her own children, and I characterized the incident with Christina witnessed by my family members as child abuse. But she wasn't the raving maniac of popular imagination and her two younger daughters are a testament to a better side of her mothering skills. What's doubtful is physical abuse by Crawford. Even her detractors have doubts about the examples of physical abuse shown in the film version of Mommie Dearest. Should she have adopted children? Absolutely not. Even one of her defenders, Helen Hayes, said (I'm paraphrasing from memory), "Joan wanted to be all things to all people. I just wish she hadn't wanted to be a mother." As for June Allyson's comments to Dick Cavett, I found this on YouTube. June simply said Crawford gave Christina the silent treatment throughout lunch and made her sit on a bench in their home holding someone's birthday gift rather than going to the birthday party. This was supposedly punishment for Christina's obnoxious behavior the prior week. That's bad (and petty) parenting but is not even on par with the dinner incident I recounted. I hardly think it can be characterized as abuse. What's extreme about this is Dick Cavett's reaction in which he calls Crawford a "psychopathic sadist." That's utterly ridiculous. Let's end this on a happy note. Notice I referred to June Allyson as "June." She was a family friend and once babysat my brother and me when our parents were going to an event at the California Club. Whatever the babysitter plans were, they fell through, and June just said my parents could drop my brother and myself off at her place and stay there overnight. She made us popcorn and we had a fun time.

Here's the young George Cukor. Would you, if it'd help your career?

I suppose I might, he's... not bad as film directors go, and I always liked that sort of Ashkenazi look.

Well we clearly disagree on the extent of her sadism in how she treated Christina when she was hoping to go to a birthday party. And for Allyson to recount it to Cavett shows she herself considered it pretty appalling and heartbreaking. And Fairbanks was clearly taken aback at her rage over a pair of socks on the floor. How does a child deal with that? They have no way of processing it. An adult can say this person's a nut. For a child it is terrifying. Look at the Schafer clip. Crawford intentionally made her son very sick to the point of throwing up because he snuck an extra piece of candy. That's horrible physical abuse. To intentionally make your child ill to teach them a lesson? NO parent in their right mind would do such a thing. I haven't seen the movie or read the book so I don't know how they deal with Crawford's behavior. I am curious about it however because I am a Crawford fan and do believe she's given some terrific performances.

I've seen interviews with the twins. There is something off about them. They seem either slow or emotionally damaged. Christina Crawford seems a lot more coherent no matter her personal vendetta.

I'm glad Allyson was a sweetheart. I'm a fan of hers as well

R245 Not bad -- without the glasses he looks a bit like a fuller-faced George Gershwin.

Joan Crawford was a textbook case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and as such, I have no doubt she was a godawful parent to at least some of her children. Parents with NPD treat their children like props to be used in a story of which they are a star, their children are always emotionally neglected (as their parent doesn't think they're actually a person), and are frequently physically or mentally abused, as their parents will use any means necessary to get their children to play the supporting role laid out for them in the narcissist's drama.

Parents with NPD also tend to be masters at putting on the "perfect family" act, and that's one way in which Joan was atypical - she was occasionally abusive to the kids in front of her friends, most parents with NPD save the abuse for private time and nobody believes the kids when they talk about it. But then, perhaps Joan's idea of the "perfect family" was one where the parent was a disciplinarian and was seen to firmly correct the kids. What did Joan know about what the perfect family looked like, she never saw one growing up.

I would have slept with Cukor for a role had I been an aspiring actor. Jimmy and Harvey though no way in hell. I couldn't live with the memory of those two.

Cukor looked reasonably attractive back then. Sure, why not?

[quote]Hedda Hopper was to the right of Ann Coulter. A nasty bitch who’s rotting in hell.

She was a racist, homophobic anti-Semitic Cunt with a capital C. She participated in the McCarthy witch hunts and ruined careers of innocent people. She was an awful person. Check out Helen Mirren's portrayal of Hedda Hopper in "Trumbo" (excellent film, btw) to see what Hopper was really like.

Barbara Stanwyck and Robert Taylor also supported the witch hunts....so where is your hate for them?

That's not the subject, dear.

R232, Sinatra stood back and allowed old Joe Kennedy to prevent Sammy from performing at JFK's Inaugural Gala because he was with May Britt at the time.

Their relationship was not consistent, there were stops and starts.

And the the Kennedy's then thanked Sinatra by cutting him because of his ties to organized crime.

Yeah, the JFK Inaugural Ball snub was just mentioned on the Dean Martin thread, as Dean supported Sammy, and refused to go and perform because of it.

Steve McQueen was a teenage hustler. He lived in fear that someone would discover his sordid past.

Leo Lerman outed Yul Brynner and Steve McQueen as bi

I'll oh dear myself. Kennedys.

June Allyson did have a drinking problem so that make have affected some of her memories.

June Allyson would piss and shit her pants.

"Hi, I'm June Allyson. I'm taking a dump right now but you can't tell because I'm wearing Depends."

In regards to Joan Crawford, there is a reason why she had 7 miscarriages and was unable to adopt through legal means.

She was really a man?

R263 She was legally able to adopt because at that time because she was 'single' and because of her occupation in the entertainment industry.

All these crackpots in the public eye purchasing children couldn't possibly be acquiring them legally. If you have power and money you can get almost anything you want as Joan proved back in the 1940s and people like Woody Allen prove this century.

Jimmy Cagney adopted a son who committed suicide. Cagney didn't like him.

Stanwyck adopted a son and wasn't talking to him at the end of her life.

I think a fair number of these women had a number of studio provided or back alley abortions when they were young ambitious actresses that prevented them from having their own children. Jane Russell was the only one who admitted to it.

Jeez R244, the fact that you can't equate what your parents and grandparents witnessed to what "June" saw, says a lot about your critical thinking, or lack thereof. The 'silent treatment' is incredibly humiliating and shaming -- making the child feel like they don't exist or aren't worthy of any acknowledgment.

And what was that your grandma said about gossip?

R257: McQueen a hustler? What, for blind folks?

r268 Isn't Steve McQueen widely regarded as a Hollywood sex symbol?

McQueen smouldered. Very very sexy. Treated women horribly. Supposedly a real jerk. But I believe he treated his children well.

R269, His former wife Ali MacGraw described him as devastatingly handsome, and she was also married to Robert Evans, who was gorgeous.

Robert Evans was attractive for like ten seconds and then turned into an overly tanned lizard

McQueen was attractive but SHORT

r271 Is that the same Robert Evans who produced Sliver who Sharon Stone recently claimed he said to her she should consider sleeping with her costar William Baldwin?

I would've fucked the living daylights out of early 90s William Baldwin.

R274, That scene where he sneaks up on Stone completely naked and then starts fucking her against a wall. He had such a nice arse. Now I have access to unlimited porn. But as a gay teenager in the 90's before the internet took off, that really was big deal.

I'll add to the chorus that Jack Paar seemed to protest too much. Dick Cavett (who worked for Paar) wondered if his constant gay bashing/obsession came out of self-loathing. His latter day interviews in the 80s and 90s reveal a very fey man.

R276, Paar would cry on camera at the drop of a hat.

r274 Me too! A very hot guy!

r275 It certainly was and I am very grateful to him for sharing his arse in those pre internet days!

There's a podcast about The Doodler - a serial killer who killed gay men in San Francisco in the 70s. It talks about an (unnamed) famous actor who escaped from The Doodler and is still alive......but there's also a tidbit about Cary Grant being seen in gay bars in San Francisco. (Rock Hudson, too, but we know that already)

It was 1974 and 1975 R279. The actor would be around 67 + years old.

R270, Yes, he smoldered. Like a dried up piece of driftwood on a blazing hot beach.

The guy had ONE EXPRESSION. Like a bored accountant who stumbled onto the set.

But you're right. He treated women, and most of his costars like shit, and smoked himself to death...all because he was SO hot.

r281 I don't get the appeal of Steve McQueen. I'm too young to have seen many of his films released when he was alive, but I've seen several years after their release. His physicality wasn't impressive and he gave bored readings of his lines. From what I've seen, his best movie was Junior Bonner, directed by Sam Peckinpah. I find that movie to be quite memorable, but not because of McQueen. There was impressive acting by Robert Preston and, especially, Ida Lupino. Both of these two knew how to film-act. Lupino turned in quite an impressive number of performances in her career and I think film students will remember her long after Steve McQueen is forgotten.

R243, here's the Wikipedia article about Forrest Tucker the actor.

Stupid thread because how would anyone posting have a clue? And applying today’s take on homophobia with 50 or 75 years ago is ridiculous.

r283 Many thanks

R284, Dickie was there. Read his posts...

R284, you don't need to have been there to read or listen to interviews. Or to read books from people who lived in that time. You seem to lack imagination.

^ quite challenged.

The same John Wayne that took handsome young men out on his boat from Newport Beach?

R288 is quite challenged

I remember reading the Joan story as told in June Allyson's memoir. The two were neighbours at one time but June says never friends, which was cemented after a lunch June was invited to at Joan's house. June says Joan was totally self-absorbed but she met Christina at the lunch where she heard about the silent treatment. But Joan never told June what her daughter was being punished for, so more details might have been useful. I have not seen the Cavett interview. Did she give more info then?

This John Wayne:

r289 Yes, that John Wayne. The same one who looked like this when he was younger. The one who reportedly sold his services to older men when he had an apartment in the Montecito on Franklin Avenue.

Wow r293 I'd never heard that before about the duke!😲

Capucine said Wayne was a "sweetheart" (meant sincerely) and you know how she loved her Gays.

r294 I heard that from a couple of people whom I trusted. On the other hand, I could be doing a Kenneth Anger here.

Also, keep in mind I'm the same person whose grandmother cautioned him about gossip. Still, it's fun.

A correction and a clarification: When I wrote about two of the biggest cocks in Hollywood, I mentioned Roddy McDowall and Preston Foster. I just noticed that, and I know nothing about Preston Foster's size. I meant to type Forrest Tucker, and several subsequent posters rightly mention him. Despite being good friends with Roddy, I never saw him nude, but his appearance in a bathing suit confirmed he was hung. Also, a (straight) friend thinks my posts imply Roddy and I had sex together. Nope, we didn't. I don't think what I wrote could be interpreted that way, but just in case.....When I wrote that I made an exception with him about being friends with an older person, that's all I meant. In my teens and twenties, I had some pretty bigoted views of "old" people and their desirability as sex partners.

r184 You mentioned A-list, B-list, and C-list parties. I made a subsequent comment about there even being different types of Christmas cards that adhered to an "importance" agenda. I referred to this as a "tiered" system. That was the term used by a lot of studios to describe the hierarchy of celebrity. As far as I know, my parents only sent out one Christmas card design each year to everyone on their list. When I was a teenager, Lizabeth Scott (popularly known as Lezabeth) was at our house at Christmas time and was looking over cards we'd received. With a combination smile/smirk, she said, "That fucking bitch." She pointed out we'd received a much nicer card than she had from the same prominent actress. Also, my mother's garrulous saleslady at the old Francis-Orr stationery store used to show mom which designs various people had bought for their Christmas cards and which customers ordered boxes of cards at different price levels for recipients of different magnitudes of importance.

Any gay gossip about Lizabeth Scott?

R297, a now-deceased couple I knew in New York said had sex with Roddy back in the early1960s. They affirmed that he was definitely hung.

^^^ "they had sex with..."

R297, did you ever meet Montgomery Clift? I've always been fascinated by him and know that he and Roddy McDowall were good friends.

r298 I don't have any special info on Scott. She was a nice person and had a good sense of humor. She was very good in Dead Reckoning. She reminded me of both Lauren Bacall and June Vincent.

r297 I hope they all had fun.

r301 No, never met Montgomery Clift. I was only about five years old when he died. As a person, I think I would have liked him. On the other hand, as an actor, I don't think his performances have aged well. I know my grandfather thought he was too stiff and "too modern" in The Heiress, marring an otherwise exquisite film. Olivia de Havilland, Miriam Hopkins, and Ralph Richardson, on the other hand, were magnificent.

Gossip about Montgomery Clift: He had a tiny cock and liked to be gang banged.

Milton Berle also was legendary for his cock. Tom Snyder on his "Tomorrow Show" even talked with some guest about it and I believe Tucker's years ago. The term used was "East meet West" when Berle and Tucker ran into each other.

or even "East meats West"!

Hollywood is still just as homophobic as ever if they think it is acceptable to put anti-gay hate speech in the title of anything.

Seriously, burn it all down if this is the best they can do.

Forest Tucker, Milton Berle, Roddy McDowall ...

Weren't there any good-looking men who were well-endowed? I mean someone who you would actually want to fuck?

Possibly Jerry Paris.

r306 George Montgomery.

Lol r296 Thanks for your reply. Your posts sort of remind me of a well known famous TV soap character in the UK whose iconic catchphrase is "You know me I'm not one to gossip!" Who then goes on to have a bit of a gossip shall say!??! Google it! Made me chuckle in a friendly sense! 👍😁😆

Sizemeat verificatia, por favor.

Roddy was nice-looking back in his day, if not particularly striking. I'd have happily given him a roll in the hay based on that and the genial kindness that was his trademark regardless of what he was packing downstairs.

George Cukor, not so much.

That is the best picture of Roddy I have ever seen.

I mentioned this years ago, but oh well. I used to see Roddy McDowall regularly at a shop I worked at in Studio City. He was always a pleasant and friendly gentleman. Ask him questions about someone or some moment in Hollywood history and he was would gladly regale us with stories. But one day, he brought along his friend, Lauren Bacall, who was very unpleasant and ornery. As they left, he discreetly apologized for her behavior.

Van Johnson was another oldtimer I'd see in the shop and he [italic]looked[/italic] old Hollywood gay with the bronzer, eyeliner, blow-dried hair, ascot, and manner of speaking that was Mid-Atlantic pompous with a dash of swish.

Roddy had the kindest eyes, always. His eyes really seemed to match the kindness everyone who knew him speaks of. Window to the soul indeed.

Dickie, did you ever socialize with the agent Charles K. Feldman at his home which is sometimes referred to as "the house of debauchery"?

r315 No, Feldman was before my time out in the world. I was born in 1961 and Feldman died in 1968. I know his name, of course, but that's about all. Had to check imdb for all his stats. He produced some good movies, but I was a bit surprised when I looked at the list. Fewer than I would have imagined.

Do you have any details on the "house of debauchery"? Sounds interesting.

Reference to assorted debaucheries here. Vague. However I recall reading somewhere else that the parties were legend in terms of all kinds of hook-ups.

r317 Interesting house. Thank you. No photo of street facade, so I can't place it.

Back when we had the SusieLee threads, I often had a different perspective from her because we knew the same people in different a context. Jule Andrews and Blake Edwards were her friends. To me they were the parents of a friend.

Obviously, I was not around in the 1920s, and cannot speak to John Wayne as a young man. He was a family acquaintance. My parents were very active in the Republican party during the 60s and 70s. He came to our house and I visited his. I doubt he was gay. I also doubt he was gay-for-pay. There is a lot of BS about him. I have read that he collected dolls. He collected Native American Art. Part of the collection was Hopi Kachina dolls. He did not have shelves of Madame Alexander dolls. The gay thing seems to be based on a photo of him in beachwear which includes espadrilles. Hardly proof-positive.

He was a, however, a drunk and a jerk. I loved to get drunk and terrorize other boaters with his powerboat. Yes, he was racist. Yes, he was homophobic. I really doubt he was gay.

Gene Raymond was also one of my fathers war-time buddies. Unfortunately, I ran in the opposite direction when the war buddies came over. It actually was not until fairly recently that I knew he was married to Jeanette MacDonald.

r313 Everyone says the same thing about Roddy McDowall. He was a real gentleman. He was patient and generous with fans and I was out with him several times where he graciously spent time answering peoples' questions. Once, he took me on a hike in Malibu Creek State Park, part of which was the former Twentieth Century-Fox Ranch. Two movies he was in - How Green Was My Valley and Planet of the Apes - were filmed there and he wanted to show me the location of the Welsh village set. We came across a group of tourists who recognized him and he spent at least 20 minutes patiently answering their questions and posing for photos with them.

I never met Lauren Bacall, but everyone says the same thing about her. Haughty, rude, and arrogant. Worse than Bette Davis, Katharine Hepburn, or Marlene Dietrich.

I crossed paths with Van Johnson several times. He was just as you describe, almost a parody of an old-school Hollywood gay. I spent a brief period working as a story editor, and encountered him on the set of Murder, She Wrote. He appeared in several segments. But at least he was pleasant with everyone.

You worked on Murder, She Wrote? That's so cool. Do you have any other gossip about guest stars

Probably TMI, but my father was a doctor. He treated Bogart when he was dying. To the end, my father had nothing nice to say about Bacall. Apparently she was an uber-bitch to everyone at the hospital and to Bogart. My father was not an emotional man, but her behavior made him angry decades later.

If Roddy took the time to listen to me blather on about silent movies, he was a saint. My interest in movies was way before his time, yet he still seemed to see someone interested in movies and put up with me. I was probably insufferable.

What was Bacall so hoity-toity about? She was Betty from the Bronx fer Chrissake! And she made it like when she was 19.

June Allyson was also from the Bronx, and while she has her detractors regarding her singing and acting performances, I didn't hear too many stories about her being unpleasant (though I'm sure Joan Blondell probably had some for stealing husband Dick Powell).

R324, Dick Powell must have had lousy taste to make that choice!

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

R326 Liz looks great/crazy, like a Prince tribute act.

Malcolm McDowell ,his wife Mary, that handsome guy who turned out to be a perv...

R326, That's Bette's faithful assistant Kathryn Sermak to her left, Elizabeth's fiance Victor Luna to her left and Stephen Collins standing behind Bette.

The blonde woman on the left is Faye Grant who was married to Stephen "kiddie diddler" Collins at the time. She was a great actress who gave up her career to marry him, and we all know how that turned out! Poor woman.

I think that's Roddy's sister who's next to Roddy.

Kathryn Sermak was a very pretty woman. And SO 80s with the dress, gloves and chandelier earrings!

Liz was wearing her George Hamilton costume.

Nice that they had Bette seated, in the center. Even Liz took second billing to Bette, lol!

r322 - my partner's dad was a doctor, too. He treated lots of celebrities in Hollywood. He was at Cedar's, they lived on Crescent Drive. He started treating Frank Sinatra around '60 or '61 and a friend, too. He was on Merv Griffin once talking about one of his star clients who was but back together after an accident - I forget who it was. As I mentioned before Frank came to Doctor Jack to treat Ava. Doctor spent much of his free time playing golf and being on boats with his clients. Joey Bishop used to invite my partner on his boat all the time. He sort of adopted him. My partner's sister worked on Golden Girls and other TV shows. Last night we were watching Funny Girl on TCM and he told me that his parents knew Ray Stark very well. My partner knew them, too.

r321 Murder, She Wrote is just one of several shows I worked on. I was strictly a small-timer. I was just starting out, wanting to be a writer. My father got me small-time paying jobs on several productions. The Murder, She Wrote set was very pleasant, like anything Angela Lansbury would be involved in. When she became a producer of the show, I understand things got even nicer. In those days, I had an apartment in Brentwood, where Lansbury lived. We'd see each other in the produce department at Vicente Foods, occasionally.

r326 Christ! It looks like Liz Taylor borrowed George Hamilton's tan for the evening.

r330 Apologies. I see you beat me to it with the George Hamilton dig.

(319) Jeanette MacDonald and Gene Raymond became my godparents after I was born in 1954. They spoiled me rotten with gifts for any occasion.

Jeanette passed away in January of 1965 when I was 10, so I only met her once although she would call our house on my birthday and sing Happy Birthday to me. I don't think I fully realized at the time that Jeanette MacDonald was singing to me.

Gene Raymond never forgot my birthday or any other holiday in all the years after. I visited with him and his second wife numerous times in Los Angeles and he was extremely thoughtful and loved to share stories about his life, career and marriage to Jeanette.

I'll never forget something he told me when I was on my first visit to Los Angeles in 1973. "Having a name or achieving some level of success is only good if you utilize that to make a difference. I have never said no to doing a Telethon, hosting a benefit, attending an event to support a cause or helping raise money, especially for the Motion Picture Home. We need to look after our own."

He was very proud to have been one of the first stars to enlist in the Air Force after Pearl Harbor and after the War, remained in the service until 1968 when he was required to retire at 60.

R335, thank you for sharing this. Your memories of Gene Raymond corroborate what others have said of him - that he was a true 'Hollywood Citizen," in that he gave freely of his time to charitable and civic endeavors. Though he was not a top-tier star, he had a long career and must have known almost everyone in the Old Hollywood community on a first-name basis.

His second wife must have had a great deal of forbearance to live in the shadow of his marriage to Jeanette, which, not to be unkind, is perhaps the thing he is most remembered for.

Someone said above Montgomery Clift and Roddy McDowall were good friends, well actually they were more than that, they were lovers for at least 2-3 years. The relationship is alluded to in Patricia Bosworth's bio on Clift. I believe it was Elizabeth Taylor who played matchmaker and hooked them up together. Monty treated Roddy quite horribly and when they broke up Roddy tried to commit suicide. Roddy still stayed on good terms with Monty even after the fact; he was one of the few friends that kept on with Clift until his death.

I bet Monty was the bottom.

Were Bette Davis and Elizabeth Taylor friends? Not much in common, perhaps -- but did they like and/or respect each other, and get along?

Roddy McDowall co-starred with Monty Clift in Clift's last film, "The Defector" (1966), a French-West German production shot in and around Munich. By this time, Clift was ill, uninsurable and largely unemployable, so he took the role to prove to the Hollywood powerbrokers that he was up to the challenge of shooting his next project, "Reflections in a Golden Eye." Roddy went along for support and to make sure Monty stayed on the wagon. So despite their troubled history, Roddy stuck with Monty, while many other former friends had fled along time ago.

When you worked on Murder She Wrote did you see Cesar Romero's big cock?

r341 If that question is directed at me, I didn't know Cesar Romero had a big cock. Romero was known for his vast wardrobe and for being one of Joan Crawford's best friends. He was an extremely popular man about town. He also made many good investments and was quite rich. That's all I know.

Romero was a walker who was in great demand among Hollywood ladies of a certain age.

r320 I find your remark about Lauren Bacall being more hard work or diva like than some of the even bigger names quite funny. I dont mean that I disbelieve you -I dont disbelieve but because I recall a BBC interview in the year 2000 that Lauren Bacall had with a scottish film journalist were she complained about Marlene Dietrich having such a big ego that she was always looking for the lights and camera in every situation and Ms Bacall definitely did not approve and said she was not a fan of Marlenes! Yet it seems like Ms Bacall was the one with a bigger ego!

r344 Bette Davis, Katharine Hepburn, and Marlene Dietrich could apparently be quite annoying and abrasive with people. They were genuinely talented in what they did, even if their acting or singing styles aren't to everyone's taste. Lauren Bacall had no real talent for anything. She married a famous man. Her best film performance was her first, in To Have and Have Not. But that performance was actually sculpted by the director, Howard Hawks, and his wife, Slim Keith. The persona they created for Bacall was that of a sullen zombie, with a hint of sexuality. At least it worked in that film. Thereafter, Bacall played the same character in every one of her subsequent film, television, and stage plays. It's all she knew how to do.

I don't think I ever met any of these women and my comments about their personalities are based on what I've heard from many first-hand sources. My only original contribution is the analysis of their acting styles and public faces. That's something I'm acutely interested in. How actors handle dialogue is one of the most important elements in film acting. My steady employment was as a dialogue coach. I was/am also a screenwriter, always writing with a partner. But that's not steady work. Or, rather, the work is steady but the income isn't.

According to pretty much everything I've read about Bette Davis, she could get nasty drunk in social situations. There are many anecdotes about her being an awful drunken bitch at parties and dinners in peoples' homes.

R336, as mentioned in the post above you, Gene Raymond was and to a lesser degree, still is remembered for his military service and skill as a fighter pilot. He managed to carve out a life where he was known as someone other than Mr. Jeanette MacDonald. As I wrote above, in spite of the fact that I practically lived in revival houses and the fact that Gene Raymond was a frequent visitor at our house, I did not know he was married to Jeannette MacDonald until much later.

What I don't quite understand is that his gay life is apparently documented in police reports, and yet he was accepted into the military. That doesn't make any sense to me.

Mary!

R348, it doesn't help that the studio bleached his hair to platinum blond. Transatlantic Merry-go-round is actually one of his better pictures and it has an extended scene with him in a swimming pool.

However, as an indication of how forgettable he is, I had forgotten that he stared in I am Suzanne, one of my favorite pictures. However, I love it for the puppetry, not the performers. I knew all of the Turnabout Theater gang during the 70s, including Elsa Lanchester.

Gene Raymond was quite beautiful in the early 30s. I recommend Flying Down to Rio where he is shirtless in one scene. Don't let the the chorus girls in sheer blouses on the airplanes put a damper on the fun.

Also Zoo in Budapest with Loretta Young as an orphan looking impossibly beautiful and Gene as an animal rights activist. One of the more bizarre films you will see.

(347) Gene Raymond would never have been allowed to remain in the Air Force and the Reserves for 27 years and make it to the rank of Colonel if there were skeletons in his closet.

The late Jim Bacon, a ruthless Hollywood columnist who never held back, dug into Raymond's past and found that there were no arrests nor any indication that he was gay. Bacon did find seven arrests for Nelson Eddy, which MGM managed to hid. Raymond, on the other hand, was never a star of the magnitude that his private life could have been hidden, especially with respect to the US Air Force. They were ruthless in vetting officers who rose in the ranks.

As I noted, he was my godfather and I never heard anything legit about any scandals. My mom, who is still alive and well at 97, knew the Raymond's from the time she graduated from Julliard and worked with them on several ventures. She heard lots about Nelson who was frequently called "Nelly" by industry insiders (not the Raymond's) and it was common knowledge that Eddy was gay.

R351, thank you. As I wrote, I knew him as one of my father's war buddies, but still, all the stuff written about him never really passed the smell test. He may not have been a perfect husband, but I just cannot believe he was in the military as long as he was with skeletons in the closet.

I saw footage of Rita Hayworth's funeral and noticed that Cesar Romero was one of the pallbearers.

I don't think Cesar had an enemy in Hollywood. He was well-liked by everyone. "Butch" Romero oozed charm and good manners and was the perfect escort for anyone wanting to make an entrance.

R347, It was not my intention to diminish Gene Raymond's long military service or his charitable activities, which indeed were well-respected in Hollywood and in the military community. My comment was referring to what the general public would most likely remember him for.

You can certainly be gay and be in a high-ranking position in the military, there have been gay generals and admirals and, no, those guys weren't all celibate and repressed either. That said, a lot of the "Gene Raymond is gay" shit is coming from the Nelson Eddy/Jeanette Macdonald fangurls. They are pushing the idea that Jeanette was really in love with Nelson and was forced to marry Gene Raymond as "punishment" by Louis B Mayer because she spurned his advances. Yes, that's what they believe. They've cast Gene Raymond as the "villain" so they spew all this crap about him being gay and abusive to Jeanette

It was not for nothing that Jeanette MacDonald was known as "The Iron Butterfly".

Unlike most stars signed by major studios, she refused to sign a 7 year contract. Instead, so as not to be beholden, she signed 3 year contracts in 1933, 1936 and 1939. She was not about to have a studio telling her what to do or who to see.

Mayer was besotted with her but there is no proof whatsoever, that she ever succumbed to his "charms". They did, however, remain lifelong friends and she would hardly have done that if he had tried to control her life or to force her into a marriage that she did not want.

In 1957, she sang at Mayer's funeral at the request of his family. In addition, Mayer often hosted parties for her when she would appear in concert in Los Angeles. He also attended her two Hollywood Bowl performances (1945 and 1948), persuaded her to return to MGM for movies in 1946 and when Jeanette opened at the Coconut Grove in her nightclub act in 1954, Mayer and his second wife were at a front table and were warmly introduced by MacDonald during the performance. Jeanette did not take her marching orders from Mayer and as a result, a friendship of nearly two and a half decades resulted.

Mayer had no control over Gene Raymond, who was under contract to RKO and had their marriage not been real, MacDonald would not have remained with him for nearly 28 years. Other than the "fan ghouls" who live in the same kind of alternate universe that our former President lived in, nothing legit has ever surfaced to call into question the validity of the MacDonald-Raymond marriage or Gene Raymond's sexuality.

Mayer DID force Eddy to marry the former wife of one of the studio's leading directors, Sidney Franklin - a woman several years older than Eddy and looking even older. Eddy and Ann Franklin were good friends and Ann, who had endured a painful hysterectomy that made it difficult to engage in sexual relations, was very content to marry Eddy and remain, mostly, out of the public eye. They shared a warm friendship and she allowed Nelson to do whatever he wished, providing she never brought shame to their marriage. Eddy was discrete in his indiscretions and Louella and others did not publicly hint at the reality.

Nelson's relationship with actor William Tannen who was cast in a supporting role in Eddy's "New Moon" which went before the cameras in 1939, some months after his January, 1939 marriage, caused a showdown with Mayer and he never forgave Eddy or treated him the same again. Mayer was fond of Ann and had promised her a comfortable and stress free life if she agreed to the marriage.

r345 I'd forgotten that I was in the presence of Lauren Bacall once. It was decades ago and I was in Hatchard's in London when I heard her distinctive, unpleasant voice. I recognized it immediately. She was speaking with a clerk whom she seemed to know. Although her voice had a surface friendliness, there was also a demanding quality to her manner. Rather unpleasant.

Damn, Nelson Eddy was arrested 7 times? Dude was hardcore

Bacall's amazing charisma filled the Palace theater which is a very large theater. And I say this finding her too hard in Designing Woman and being treated not very nicely by her myself. She was unforgettable on stage in Applause. The TV version is another matter.

Were there any others who were in studio-arranged marriages, besides Eddy and Van Johnson?

Apparently there were quite a few others, R361.

Robert Taylor and Barbara Stanwyck. Tyrone Power and Annabella.

Rod LaRocque and Vilma Banky

Mel Brooks and Anne Bancroft

Julie Andrews and Blake Edwards

Alfred and Lynn though not of course studio arranged.

I think that Hedda and Louella were the type that if you were gay but made an attempt at a happy lavender marriage, they rewarded you by keeping mum about your inclinations. It was all about keeping up appearances. But if they ever got wind that you weren't keeping your end of the social contract, they dropped vicious hints about it in their columns.

Lucy is definitely a friend to the gays. She was quoted in an article as in favor of gay marriage (and this was like the 70's). She was good friends with Van Johnson and was very close to Robert Osborne. She's basically the reason Robert Osborne was the fantastic historian and host he was.

I'm pretty sure Audrey Hepburn was gay friendly. Never heard anything different, and I remember Kevin Aucoin put in one of his books on makeup that he once worked on Audrey and she was truly lovely and wrote him a beautiful hand written thank you note later on.

I think Marilyn was a very ahead of her time, progressive person in lots of ways, so I doubt she was homophobic. There are rumors of her and Joan hooking up as well.

I don't know when it comes to homosexuality, but Myrna Loy was known as one of the more progressive people in Hollywood.

There were comments a while back about Fred Astaire, I lean more towards him being possibly asexual, not that I have anything to back that up. I can't imagine him doing either for some reason, especially after reading his autobiography. He was very charming though, and gigantic hands.

Myrna Loy hit it off with Monty Clift while making "Lonelyhearts," despite Monty's deteriorating mental state, that she remained his loyal friend and mother figure until the end. She was a good woman.

"I just heard that the Statue of Liberty has AIDS. No one knows if she got it from the Mouth of the Hudson or the Staten Island Fairy." Bob Hope July 4 1986.

Bob Hope's AIDS joke, interesting read

I know Audrey was good friends with Noel Coward

Julie Andrews may have been just having a bad day but during the shooting of "Darling Lili", she had a minor on-set disagreement with Rock Hudson her co-star. IN front of more than 2 dozen crew members she said to Hudson, "There is only one leading man in this film and it's not you..."

r371 Myrna Loy was a thoroughly decent woman. Politically, she was very liberal and actively campaigned for feminist and pro-Black causes. She once asked a studio boss why Black actors were always servants in films. Why, she asked, couldn't they be shown carrying a briefcase and walking up the steps into a courthouse. She was outspokenly pro-gay in conversations I had with her. My family was associated with Paramount Pictures and Myrna had been an MGM star for much of her career. Although there wasn't really any social rivalry between studios, for some reason we only had a few MGM stars among our family friends. Myrna Loy, June Allyson, Fred Astaire, Judy Garland, and Oscar Levant were the principal MGM players in my grandparents' and parents' social world. I guess that's a lot, but MGM had a huge payroll. It's often forgotten that in the 1930's poll of American moviegoers of who the king and queen of the movies were, Myrna Loy was named queen to Clark Gable's king. Myrna was absolutely, hands down, the biggest defender of Joan Crawford of anyone in Hollywood. She openly trashed Christina Crawford for Christina's selfish, diva-like behavior in a play they both appeared in.

The poll that named Gable and Loy was conducted in 1938. The following year in 1939, the King and Queen of the Screen were Tyrone Power and Jeanette MacDonald.

Ed Sullivan who presented the awards to them snidely remarked to an assistant, "Which one is the Queen?"

Jeanette MacDonald who was one of Ed Sullivan's favorite singers, overheard the remark that Sullivan made.

She took Sullivan aside and chastised him for his insensitivity and said she hoped he'd never say something like that again.

He may have heeded her advice since she guested on his television program a couple of times in the early 50's.

Oops - sorry 'bout that!!

Tyrone and Jeanette were equally pretty.

Barbara Stanwyck apparently didn't like gay men, esp. gay men who were effeminate.

R361, Alexis Smith and Craig Stevens

R380 Probably because she was so butch herself.

Who was Stanwyck's hair dresser?

R380, she must have hated her hubby then

Marilyn bedded most of the hot female stars of the period so its doubtful she was homophobic.

Apparently if you post that Nelson Eddy was gay on the TCM forums....your post gets crossed out. This is the crossed out post:

Nelson Eddy was gay, a fact fully documented and widely known in the industry. Jeanette MacDonald was happily married, a fact also widely documented by such esteemed journalists as Bob Thomas, Vernon Scott, Jim Bacon, and others.

R357, Didn't know about Tannen and Eddy. Tannen showed up in a lot of films, but mostly in bit parts.

Still, he was pretty smokin' hot. Or just pretty.

[quote]I don't know when it comes to homosexuality, but Myrna Loy was known as one of the more progressive people in Hollywood.

r369 or anyone else who might know, was it Myrna Loy who was reported as saying in the 1930s or 1940s that she didn't understand why there weren't more black actors in movies? I have a memory of Robert Osborne talking about an actress in that era saying she didn't know why there weren't at least black extras playing roles as lawyers who were walking up the steps of the courthouse, instead of always playing maids and porters.

Oh lord I am SO sorry for my post at r388, I didn't realize the whole thread hadn't loaded until my own post didn't show up, so I hit refresh and saw Dickie @ R375 already answered my question!

Older gays I know used to say Isabel Jewell was very pro-gay. Apparently after several decades, she was still pissed her child-birth scene in Gone With the Wind was cut.

Just remembered another very pro-gay actress, Ann Harding. She was a fairly major star for a while and had a pretty long career. According to imdb, she joined the NAACP in 1934 and supported pro-Black causes. My mother belonged to a liberal group called Women For. They used to have lunch meetings at the Beverly Hills Hotel and there was always a guest speaker. I think my mother said Harding was once a speaker there about gay rights. Another pro-gay member of this group was Edward G. Robinson's stepdaughter, Jeanne. I remember meeting her, but can't remember if I ever met Harding. Harding made a very good movie in the UK called A Night of Terror, with a very creepy performance by Basil Rathbone. I only joined DL recently and it's caused me to start living in the past. Not much else to do in semi-lockdown.

I love Ann Harding and never understood why her hair so often covered her ears. They weren't that bad!

A lot of times when people write about a certain actor and I am not familiar with them I look them up. Ann Harding R391 later in life started living with a woman by the name of Grace Kaye. Later she took on Hardings last name. Harding referred to her as her daughter.

R391 Glad you can join us, DIckie! Keep the stories coming!

[quote] Gene Kelly would make nasty comments about gays....but he'd put out for guys if he thought it would help his career

He was known to whip his cock out on the set and do a whirlybird with his rather large penis. A lot of the gay men who were crew members used to talk about this a lot. It was mentioned in one of the memoirs.

Miss Ava Gardner, as quoted by her biographer, Peter Evans in "Ava Gardner: The Secret Conversations":

[quote]"I hate journalists. I don’t trust them. But Dirk Bogarde says you're O.K. Dirk said you deal from a clean deck, and you're not a faggot. Don't get me wrong. I get on fine with fags, I just prefer dealing with guys who aren't."

That part curiously wasn't caught on tape, R396. That's just what the author claimed she said. It's odd that none of what was caught on tape is ever that vulgar, and in fact at one point she asks if she can even say the word "hard-on" on tape.

Besides, it never made any sense for her to have Dirk Bogarde of all people screen for "faggots" so she didn't have to deal with any.

I don't believe she said it.

r396 Ava Gardner was MGM white trash. When her ex-husband Frank Sinatra married Mia Farrow, she said, "Ha! I always knew Frank would end up in bed with a boy."

I don't believe that Ava said it either. She adored Roddy and even did a film for him. In addition, one of her closest friends and confidantes was Sydney Guilaroff, the gay hairstylist at MGM. They remained close until Ava's passing. In fact when Ava returned to Los Angeles to film "Earthquake" and was invited to the May, 1974 opening of the compilation film "That's Entertainment", she only agreed to attend if Sydney would accompany her.

r399 On the plus side, Gardner was a good friend of Lena Horne. Another good friend of hers was Kathryn Grayson. Gardner said Grayson "had the biggest boobs in Hollywood. With her, they didn't need 3-D"

Ava denied ever saying that.

We go through this every time Ava is brought up on DL.

Michael Thornton claimed she said that to him when he interviewed her for a Kitty Kelley book, but he was in fact interviewing her for some newspaper articles and never did interview her for a Kelley book.

The quotes from Ava in the Sinatra book were never verified, and in fact Ava denied quite a few of them.

My partner lived with Ava for a year in 1978, he says she never would have said this. It is totally out of character.

Kathryn Grayson told a funny story about "Kiss Me Kate" and her "ample endowments"!

"Kiss Me Kate" was released in 3-D but the studio did a more wide release in the regular "flat" format.

Kathryn joked to friends that they had to drop the 3-d gimmick because, "each time I turned around on-screen, I wiped out the first five rows of the audience..."

After attending a performance of "La Cage aux Folles" (the musical) at the Pantages in Los Angeles with Sydney Guilaroff, Ann Miller remarked to Sydney, "Do you think we could get the producers to change the lead characters to a couple of old dykes and let me and Katie (Grayson) play the roles?"

Regarding the Gene "is he or isnt he" Raymomd question - the author of a Jeanette/Nelson website and book has links to Raymond's arrest records and pages from Jeanettes diary showing things may not be as rosy as they are being painted here. I dont have the link but it should be easy enough to find. Take it as you will.

Jim Bacon, the writer and longtime entertainment columnist, delved into those "alleged arrest records" and found them all to be fraudulent and created by the author, who refused to share actual copies with anyone for verification purposes. He was able to verify the Nelson Eddy arrests but found nothing implicating Gene Raymond and noted, "the broad perpetrating this fraud should be locked up..."

This author has letters Gene Raymond and Jeanette Macdonald sent each other proving they were a real couple. Doesn't mean they never had any problems, or that he couldn't have had a bi side, but the idea that their marriage was a sham or that she was literally forced to marry him are ridiculous

I once saw an episode of "This Is Your Life" with Jeanette MacDonald, shot in the 1950s. She kept up her usual sickly-sweet act for most of the show, the only time the mask slipped is when her husband Gene Raymond called in, and said nice things and said he'd see her that night. She said pointedly "Oh, will you be home?", with the "...for once" plainly left unsaid.

I assume the divorce was not long after.

They never divorced, nor were they unhappy. I guess people see what they want to see

The "fan ghouls" who are apparently visiting this site with their wild imaginings. The desperation is truly pathetic and the need to "butch-up" Nelson and turn him into a womanizer, which he was not, and demonize Gene Raymond by making him the "gay villain of the piece, reveals a group of unhappy individuals who can only be defined by their ability to concoct fantasy scenarios that have no connection to the real world.

The true story of Eddy and his unhappiness, which drove him to drink, over being gay and having to live a lie, would make for a compelling story. Jeanette's fascinating life was told in an outstanding and award-winning three volume set by Maggie McCormick that I stumbled upon by chance. IT's a book about people, a business (entertainment) and the challenges they faced when the wife was vastly more popular and known than the husband. How they came to terms and dealt with those issues and others, makes for a real page turner.

Reading the book, I had no doubt that MacDonald and Raymond were a real, not a "reel" couple and that the love they shared was true. MacDonald did not allow anyone to control her life or force her to do things she did not want to do. Marrying Eddy would have been a sham as Ann Eddy discovered.

The sources for the "fan ghoul fantasy" are all suspect and the writing in their books reads like very bad soap opera text. I was fortunate in interviewing Jim Bacon about his life and brought up the MacDonald-Raymond controversy. Bacon was not one to censor himself and was always blunt about what he knew. He said pretty much what the previous respondent noted in their comments. Shoveling the b.s. the "fan ghouls" have been shoveling for decades doesn't change the fact that it's manure and none of them come out smelling like anything else.

[quote]Gene Kelly worked with LOTS of gay men and I can't believe he would have used the word around them in public.

What could they have done if he had used the word? Nothing.

Gene Kelly was so convinced of his own self-importance and feeding his considerable ego, that he never hesitated in belittling others if it served his purposes.

Donald O'Conner did not have happy memories of working with him on SITR and told Kelly in front of the cast and crew after one of Kelly's tantrums that if he ever acted that way again he was going to kick him in the nuts. He also claimed Reynolds sugar coated a lot of what she went through with Kelly. Whatever she said it was far worse.

r413, r414 Politically, Gene Kelly was supposed to have been quite liberal, which would have made him a natural fit with my parents' set. However, he wasn't part of their social circle. Perhaps because of his egotism. June Allyson said that the Singin' in the Rain musical number was originally planned for Kelly, O'Connor, and Reynolds to sing together. Kelly wanted it all for himself and got his way.

I remember reading that Gene Kelly's wife would visit him in the hospital during his final days and she would bring her boyfriend along.

R409, Actually, the show had Gene telephone Jeanette from backstage when she thought he was 3,000 miles away in NYC.

She caught on and that is why she made the "Will you be home? . . ." remark.

Near the end of the "live" broadcast, Nelson appeared and sang to both of them, the same song he sang at their wedding.

Any dish on Gary Cooper? Was there not a similar story to Gene Kelly's about him flashing his genitals at a bar where there were prominent gay figures, also?

There was never a gay bone in Cooper's body.

Here’s the This Is Your Life episode with Jeannette. She clearly knew the Gene Raymond phone call was fake (starts ~6:20). She was also tipped off (by the parking lot attendant) that Nelson Eddy would appear.

Jeanette looks almost giddy talking to her husband of 15 years.

As for the tears when "The Singing Capon" appears - it is clearly a reminder of the day she pledged herself in marriage to her husband and they are happy tears. The "Fan Ghouls" would have us believe its for another reason. She seems like a really charming, delightful and genuine person - nothing phony.

R326, that's a gathering at Roddy's. Mary Steenburgen is at the left, standing. She and Roddy did "Dead of Winter" together in 1987. Steenburgen also appeared as the young version of Lillian Gish's character in Davis' "Whales of October," also in 1987. I might be blind but I think that's also Stephen Collins there - he and Roddy both appeared in the "Tales of the Golden Monkey" series earlier in the 1980s. Three others look familiar but I can't quite place them.

Liz looked so fabulous and also batshit crazy in that Roddy photo, I love it! Bette Davis looked like she was going to keel over any minute.

Liz looks like tan mom in that photo.

Susan Lucci looks great.

That's not Susan Lucci. That's Kathryn Sermak, who was Bette Davis's personal assistant.

This article talks about Gene Raymond's arrests.

But it also talks about Nelson Eddy fucking McDonald.

Anyone can write anything (as the author of the book the "Fan Ghouls" esteem as second only to the Bible) and pass it off as fact, especially when the individuals are deceased. The book of lies can then be used as a reference to put lies on other sources.

I think I'll stick to reality and individuals like Jim Bacon and Bob Thomas and Vernon Scott, who had impeccable credentials and backed everything up with facts.

What's the big deal about Nelson being gay? Wouldn't that make him a better actor than critics ever stated he was? He was able to fool a lot of people while enjoying the comfort of select men.

The air of desperation emanating from the "Fan Ghouls" doesn't change reality or facts. Those who believe such stuff are either fools or followers of our former president and his alternate universe of facts.

Gretchen, stop trying to make Fan Ghouls happen. It's not going to happen.

I tend to believe that "where there is smoke, there is fire" in regard to Gene Raymond.

Except the "fire" is coming from homophobic fangirls who make shit up. These gals think Nelson Eddy was straight, so....

I just read an article that says BOTH Raymond and Eddy were gay. And that McDonald had been a call girl in NYC and hated sex but used it to advance her career.

Sounds legit, R432.

I love Ann Harding! There's a pretty good soapy movie she did with William Powell. They had good chemistry.

Dickie Greenleaf: So you said Fred Astaire was a part of your family's social circle right? Did you get to hear stories about him? He always seemed like a gent to me, but I also heard he was a republican. When Debbie Reynold's was crying under a piano, hiding from Gene Kelly, Fred Astaire found and consoled her. He seemed to have less ego and dickishness, just a lot of perfectionism.

(430) Well if that's the case, then the longstanding rumors about Eddy and his arranged marriage per L.B. Mayer and his trysts with various male actors and others, must also have some truth!

R422, they've already been identified. Standing (l to r): Mary Steenbergen; La Liz; Steenbergen's then husband Malcolm McDowell; Stephen Collins; Roddy's sister; Roddy; sitting (l to r): Collins' wife Faye Grant; Bette; Bette's assistant Kathryn Sermak; Taylor's fiance Victor Luna.

Nelson Eddy and his "beard" and good friend, Ann Eddy

^ That was nice of him to marry his mom

R432, Clark Gable did not enjoy making "San Francisco" with Jeanette.

r372 An absolutely vile 'joke' made by Bob Hope there.

I've already written this but I'll write it again. I went to a showing of Royal Wedding at the Biograph and Burton Lane made an appearance. This man who worked many decades on Broadway and in Hollywood and probably knew everybody at least from the 20s through the 70s said the nicest person he ever knew in show business was Fred Astaire.

I don't believe he was asexual. He had children and then married that young jockey when he was an old man. I very highly recommend the book on the history of both him and his sister. When they were an act Adele was the one everyone loved and was charmed by. Adele said that George Gershwin(who wrote two musicals for them) was asexual. 'If he had been heterosexual I would have known.'

I think Gershwin was a closet gay, not "asexual"

Regarding Fred Astaire....if you listen to the director's commentary for the movie De-Lovely (not a great film, but the commentary is interesting) he says Astaire's kids were freaked out over the movie "making him look gay" even though it doesn't. There's a character in the movie (played by DL fave John Barrowman) who introduces the song "Night and Day" and later hooks up with Porter. I guess because Astaire was the one who introduced "Night and Day" they thought this character was supposed to be Astaire. I wonder why some of these celeb kids are so freaked out over anyone saying their famous dads might not have been totally hetero. Cary Grant's daughter is the same way.

Cary Grant was absolutely bi, or perhaps even gay but he fucked and married women because of the times he lived in and for career considerations.

Why would they make up a fictional character to introduce Night and Day in a biopic when it is one of the most famous introductions of a great song in show business?

R444, I don't know, maybe because they wanted a hot guy like Barrowman in the cast and Astaire was ugly. Either way, the character clearly isn't supposed to be Astaire

Wasn't Robert Montgomery homophobic? He was definitely right wing.

Thank God his daughter Elizabeth was the exact opposite.

r434 When I was growing up in the sixties and seventies, a lot of Hollywood, especially the older generation, were Republican. Most, however, weren't nasty Republicans like the ones we have today. Also, most of them were willing to leave their political opinions at the door when they came to our house. They had good manners. Or maybe my parents only invited good-mannered people to our house. I definitely remember that Fred Astaire was a "mild" Republican. The principal thing I remember about him is that he had a gentle personality and a soft sense of humor. He was simply a pleasant person. I don't have any special stories about him. Well, there's this: When I was a teenager, we visited him at his new house in Beverly Hills. I have a vague memory that his daughter had something to do with its construction or decoration. Anyway, it was the first time I'd seen sprayed plaster ceilings, and I thought it looked incredibly cheap. I don't think that's the kind of reminiscence that biographers are interested in. The main problem I have when I'm asked about some of the famous people we knew is that, at the time, I didn't appreciate who they really were and that they had any real importance. To me, most of them were just old people and I really didn't find them that interesting. Now, I'm sorry I didn't pay more attention.

I'm glad you like Ann Harding. The movie she did with William Powell was Double Harness. I think she's always interesting as an actress. She had a refined, ladylike air that didn't come across as snooty. At times, she seems rather wan in her roles, but it's usually because important scenes have been clumsily edited or deleted entirely. I don't know if you've seen The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit, but her role was originally much bigger. Most of it was left on the cutting-room floor. In her one big scene, she gives her lines a beautiful reading, but they kind of exist in a vacuum. That's one of many movies that I wish could be reconstructed from its original shooting script. Impossible wish.

Unrelated issue: In rereading my comment r375, I only mention five names. There was a sixth that I should have included, Joan Crawford. It's revealing that I "forgot" her. I know my family partly befriended her out of pity and kindness. And also, I'm sure, there was a bit of condescension on their part. I think it's partly snobbism on my part that caused me to forget about her. She was from the wrong side of the tracks, and nobody ever let her forget that.

R414, Please provide a link for that quote. O'Connor was very fond of Kelly and guest-starred with him on several of his tv specials. He may have said that, but I'm skeptical because that was his big break at MGM, and Kelly was an idol of his.

Also, there's this:

"Gene was wonderful and amenable. He was known up until that time as kind of temperamental, but with this picture, he was just great."

A great interview in general as well.

Mr. and Mrs. Nelson Eddy on their wedding day in 1939 . A "perfect" match!

Jeanette MacDonald and Gene Raymond celebrate their 20th wedding anniversary in June of 1957. Gee, they look happy!!

R396 R397 Ava and Dirk. So she was a homophobic fag hag?

Any word or knowledge on Esther Williams, Angie Dickinson, Jane Powell and kirk Douglas and their attitudes towards gays please?

Kirk Douglas was powerless to stop them from censoring references to homosexuality in [italic]Spartacus[/italic] in the early 1960s but put up no fight against it when they were restored in the 1990s.

Jane was great friends with Bob Osborne and they socialized together frequently.

Personally, when Jane came to NH in the summer of 1981 while touring with David Hedison in "The Marriage Go Round", we got together for a bite after her performance and I brought along my boyfriend at the time. After dinner she remarked to me, "Now he's cute and I think you're a perfect pair. He's a keeper!"

All of them were transphobic except for Julie Andrews.

Jane Powell did a show-stopping recreation of her "Why Did You Believe Me When I Said I Loved You When You Know I've Been a Liar All My Life" from "Royal Wedding" with DL sorta fave Lee Roy Reams when she was like 60 at an Alan Jay Lerner tribute at the old NY State Theater. Her voice mic may not have been working properly, but man, her dancing was on fire.

Angie Dickenson is tricky. I worked with her once and I did hear some casually homophobic comments, but I suspect that while she might use the word "fag", if you were her "fag" she would fight tooth and nail for you.

Angie was great friends with Earl Holliman, who is gay and was her co-star on "Police Woman". Most people in Hollywood knew he was gay. They remained close after the show ended.

R458, that is why some of these old actors and actresses are hard to categorize. Nancy Reagan was great friends with William Haines, but when it came to AIDS, her attitude was "Just die already." Ronald Reagan, on the other hand, didn't understand why they could just stop being Gay. He was more compassionate, if clueless,... at least in private.

Oops. Ronald Reagan, on the other hand, didn't understand why they *couldn't* just stop being Gay.

[quote]Ronald Reagan, on the other hand, didn't understand why they could just stop being Gay. He was more compassionate, if clueless,... at least in private.

It didn't matter what Nancy "Blow Job" Reagan thought or said. Ronnie had power. And he refused to use it to help gay people dying.

He was NOT compassionate. He was an asshole.

Didn't Kirk Douglas bully his son Eric for being gay?

R458, They're both still alive.

Earl Holliman is 92 and still with us!

Wonder if they were thinking of Earl Hindman, who died a long time ago?

(484) No, my error. I meant ARE good friends. Sorry.

I don't know if it's hilarious or sad that this thread has veered into a heated discussion of two long, long-ago movie stars who have been dead for nearly sixty years. Welcome to DL, I guess.

It's difficult today to understand how these people could have been such huge and popular stars of their era. A friend of mine once was dragged by her grandmother to a revival house, to see a pair of MacDonald-Eddy films. Her reaction was, "What was THAT all about?"

I suppose they still fascinate because all three were beautiful and glamorous, and there was a real chemistry on screen between Nelson and Jeanette. And Gene had a spectacular body, in addition to good looks, in an era when relatively few men paid that kind of attention to their physique. Which may be why people speculated that he was gay.

Still, I'm enjoying all the parrying back and forth about old maybe gay Nelson and old maybe not-gay Gene and old tough-love Jeanette!

[quote]It's difficult today to understand how these people could have been such huge and popular stars of their era. A friend of mine once was dragged by her grandmother to a revival house, to see a pair of MacDonald-Eddy films. Her reaction was, "What was THAT all about?"

Their personas are so dated now. The Classic Hollywood stars who are still known and revered all had a modern sensibility about them, like Bette Davis, Katharine Hepburn and Clark Gable, among others.

The others who were just as huge in that era Like MacDonald/Eddy, Norma Shearer, Loretta Young, Bing Crosby etc. have faded away because they just didn't translate to the generations that came after them.

The esteemed columnist, Army Archerd, when asked about an alleged affair between MacDonald and Eddy in 1998 exclaimed, "You mean gay Nelson Eddy? The baritone? Ha!"

Army knew where all of the skeletons were buried.

r462 I never knew Kirk Douglas had a gay son?

r457 r458 Thank you

didnt Angie beard for John Barrowman briefly?

r454 Oh yes of course I had forgotten Jane Powell was very good friends with Robert Osborne .I am still curious about Esther Williams though.Anyone know anything?

r453 That I did not know thank you.Kirk not objecting to the inclusion in the re-release is clearly a positive sign

Jeanette MacDonald is remembered very respectfully by many film historians and scholars for her work with Ernst Lubitsch and Rouben Mamoulian. Her early cinema work (1929 - 1934) earned her praise and kudos and she was known as the "Lingerie Queen".

It was only after MGM starred her in so many operettas and opposite the wooden Eddy, that her reputation later took a hit.

Her personal popularity, after her screen career was over in 1949, continued throughout the 50's with sold-out concerts before upwards of 10,000 as well as stage performances in musicals such as "The King and I".

It was unfortunate that she got stuck in the 8 films with Eddy and was not able to continue with more sophisticated fare.

Naughty Marietta was nominated for a Best Picture oscar, just because those films are maligned now doesn't mean they were at the time. They were big hits, too, so I seriously doubt she was complaining (well, she complained about Eddy but that was more due to his personal habits)

What an amazing thread!

Not only did Jeanette do musicals and concerts, she studied with famed soprano Lotte Lehmann and appeared in opera, receiving excellent reviews for her Juliette in "Romeo et Juliette" and Marguerite in "Faust" in Chicago, a major opera city. I believe she may have done more opera as well.

Bogarde was really cute there. We tend to see a lot of stars from yesteryear as they were when they were older, you forget that they were once young and hot.

R452 Angie is one of the actors who supported Rock Hudson in People Magazine's big 1985 cover story on him. (The duo had worked together in 1977's "Pretty Maids All in A Row.")

“There is no doubt in my mind that Rock has taken a courageous stand,” says Angie Dickinson, a longtime friend. “I think it is pretty unfortunate that some people may not accept Rock because of his honesty.”

More support from Angie.

r477 r478 Thank you very much. Confirms Angie as a very good and geniune soul in my opinion.

Four of Jeanette's films were nominated for Oscars as best Picture ("Love Parade", "One Hour with You", "Naughty Marietta" and "San Francisco").

Her 1937 release, "Maytime" was the top moneymaking film in the world for 1937 according to Variety and her films consistently finished in the top moneymakers.

In 1951 a national poll found her to be the number 2 favorite female singing star in the USA.

An album she recorded with Eddy for RCA in 1958 was released in 1959 and earned a Gold Record for sales.

Operetta is not for everyone but even in the most trite production, MacDonald brings a certain sparkle to the screen that is mesmerizing. Only 8 of her 29 films were with Eddy and many are worth checking out. (With Eddy I would recommend the aforementioned "Marietta" as well as "Rose Marie", "Maytime" and "Sweethearts", which was MGM's first all Technicolor musical production.

San Francisco is absolutely sensational and if you don't think so I don't know what to say. But the problem is clearly you.

Maytime is one of my favorites. Kind of long and lumbering but very lavish and quite a payoff at the end. Barrymore gives a brilliant performance.

Lubitsch's Merry Widow is one of the best movie musicals though it doesn't pay a whole lot of heed to the original operetta. Another impossibly lavish MGM production and Jeanette is fabulous and very modern in her attitudes towards female sexuality. That's the Lubitsch touch.

(481) Totally agree. Jeanette was cited by the Screen Actor's Guild for her performance in "Maytime" and the range she displayed playing her character from very young to elderly. "The Merry Widow" is masterful and "The Cat and the Fiddle" has a great score by Kern and is very saucy and funny.

Producer Ross Hunter unsuccessfully tried to reunite Jeanette MacDonald and Nelson Eddy to play the roles eventually played by Arlene Francis and Edward Andrews in "The Thrill of It All"(1963), starring Doris Day and James Garner.

Jeanette and Gene were good friends of Ross Hunter and had a lovely dinner at his home joined by Doris Day and Marty Melcher in 1962 to discuss the possibility of Jeanette appearing in the film. Nelson declined, however, and then Jeanette's health took a turn for the worse.

Hunter even considered pairing her again with Chevalier, who he used in a 1964 film, "I'd Rather Be Rich" which featured Gene Raymond in a supporting role.

Interesting piece of trivia about Ross Hunter and Nelson Eddy.

When Hunter was acting for Columbia in the 1940's, well before becoming a successful producer, he was picked-up by Eddy in Griffith park.

Ross, who had loved the MacDonald-Eddy films while growing up asked Eddy for his autograph, after they'd "finished". Eddy gave it to him and Ross had it in a frame in his home. Virginia Grey, who was a close friend and confidante of Hunter and appeared in many of his films, loved sharing the story - especially after she'd had a few drinks.

Virginia had been a supporting player, mostly, at MGM while Eddy was there and always thought of him as being a big phony trying to fool people into thinking he was straight. That's probably one of the reasons she delighted in telling the Ross Hunter story.

Nelson Eddy somewhat resembled the later blonde MGM star Van Johnson, who was also a matinee-idol type, and similarly hid his gay life from the public, though in Johnson's case it was not exactly a secret.

Leonard Penn, an actor who had a featured role in Jeanette MacDonald's 1937 hit, "The Firefly" (with Allan Jones) was another of Eddy's conquests.

Penn was "married" (in name only) to actress Gladys George. They would divorce in the 1940's. George was an alcoholic and Penn was bisexual. Their relationship was open with George dallying with many bottles and Penn playing with other things.

Eddy met him while visiting Director Robert Z. Leonard on "The Firefly" set and it was instant, for about 2 weeks, between the baritone and the younger actor.

Despite all the praise cumming from the Eldergay Friends of Jeanette, everyone who saw 1974 "That's Entertainment" in a theater, remembers the MacDonald-Eddy clips were always met with laughter.

(488) While there are plenty of laughable moments in operetta, or at least the way it is viewed by audiences since the 1970's, the film's gay producer, Jack Haley, Jr. had a genuine distaste for operetta and sopranos which is why they were shortchanged in the compilation film.

It's an amazing film and a deserved success, but to watch it, you would think that Jeanette made barely one film at MGM instead of 17 - most of them hugely popular from a critical and box-office standpoint.

There were numerous scenes that could have been shown that would have more accurately reflected MacDonald, including a Technicolor scene that would have shown off her stunning beauty in color. There were also duets that were not necessarily "nose to nose".

Haley knew what he was doing and received a great deal of negative remarks from Jane Powell, Kathryn Grayson, Eleanor Powell and others. Had Miss Grayson not starred in the enormously popular Freed Production of "Show Boat", her scene in the film would have only been her and Mario Lanza attempting to "out bellow" one another while singing "Be My Love.". Miss Powell was only caught doing a reprise of "It's a Most Unusual Day".

Hay was a vicious closeted "Queen" who hid his gayness while being a nightly visitor to every bath house in Los Angeles county.

Jeanette also starred with Chevalier in Mamoulina's "Love Me Tonight", considered one of the greatest musicals ever, and it's witty, sexy, wonderful and everything they say, with a top-notch Rodgers & Hart score, and a great supporting cast including a sexy Myrna Loy.

Mamoulian, that is

r489 Hay? Do you mean Haley, who was married to Liza?

Yes, Haley - my magic fingers aren't so magic today on the keyboard!! Can I blame it on the Covid vaccine I received yesterday?

r489 Operetta isn't my thing, and it can be quite silly to modern audiences. However, Jeanette MacDonald was very good both as a singer and an actress. She made some very good films. Did you know Kathryn Grayson? If so, did she live on La Mesa Drive in Santa Monica? I have a hazy memory of being at her house for lunch, and she served her homemade chili. I think Mel Brooks and Anne Bancroft also lived on La Mesa. I remember meeting Rouben Mamoulian a couple of times. George Cukor used to host the directors of the Academy-nominated best foreign films at a lunch at his house. After he died, Mamoulian continued doing this for a few years before he died.

Any dirt on Ramon Novarro? I love him. I know MGM tried to pair him off with female stars like Myrna Loy and Greta Garbo, but he didn't play along

McDonald's historic legacy in film was hurt first by the enforcement of production code in 1934 so she can no longer play the sexy roles that she did before then. And operetta becoming a form that fell out of popular favor.

MacDonald. unlike her 1920s Broadway colleague Irene Dunne, apparently never took an interest in broadening her horizons by playing non-singing dramatic or comedy roles. Dunne, who had a serviceable soprano voice, not quite in the range of Jeanette's, managed to work with equal ease in musicals, comedies and dramas, and usually managed to warble a song of two in most of her films. It may simply have been the case that MGM already had plenty of actresses who could fill those roles and so MacDonald was relegated to operettas, where she was unique and well-loved by audiences.

(494) Yes I knew Kathryn and she did indeed live on La Mesa, right next door to Mel and Anne. Lovely lady - very gracious. Loved her fans and often shared dinners with Ann Miller and Zsa Zsa Gabor.

(497) Mr. Mayer loved old-fashioned operetta and having Jeanette at his studio suited him just fine in regards to making and remaking operettas that he loved himself.

Thalberg was involved with the production of "The Merry Widow" (1934) and "Maytime" *1837) among others and the original concept for "Maytime" was much different than what ultimately resulted after his death. Had Thalberg not died, I believe MacDonald's MGM career would have been much more diverse. Unfortunately MGM put you into a particular category and rarely deviated from that. Jeanette could very well have done similar roles as Irene Dunne did. Irene, however, mostly freelanced and had more opportunities for comedies, musicals and drama.

Jeanette and Irene started out together in musicals on Broadway and tour and remained very good friends for Jeanette's entire life. Irene and her husband and Jeanette and hers often socialized and traveled. Irene usually attended Jeanette's Los Angeles concert performances.

Jeanette and Irene

Operettas contain some really gorgeous music and the NYC Opera was the last time they got serious professional fully staged productions in New York. Their production of Romberg's The New Moon which I saw 3 times is something I'll never forget.

R489: Those Eddy/MacDonald musicals must have been pretty popular; they obviously influenced Walt Disney in the production of [italic]Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs[/italic].

Tell me something about Kay Francis and Carole Landis.

An old friend who was involved in the television industry had a business meeting with Jeanette about some project that never materialized. He said that even though at that point she was in her late fifties and not in the best of health, she was still so glamorous that she stopped the room dead when she walked in - every head turned toward her.

Broadway Producer Hal Prince said pretty much the same thing about Jeanette.

He went to meet with her in the early 60's to discuss her starring in a musical version of "Sunset Boulevard".

She looked every inch the glamorous star when she greeted him and they had a long and interesting discussion. He felt hat she would have done the show, which would have opened around 1964/65 had her health not taken a serious turn soon after.

Jeanette MacDonald performs "Getting to Know You" on-stage in "The King and I" (1956)

r490 Your comment prompted me to watch Love Me Tonight again. First time I've seen it in a number of years. It's really good and there's a masterful use of sound in the first few minutes. It's a crime Mamoulian wasn't able to make more films. Travis Banton costumes (assisted by good old Edith Head). Paramount, of course. And yes, Myrna Loy was sexy ("Could you go for a doctor?" "Certainly, bring him right in.") Other good dialogue: [Scream of pain] "Did you break your leg?" "No, I fell flat on my flute."

r504 I'd never heard that there were any plans to do a musical version of Sunset Boulevard with Jeanette MacDonald. MacDonald would have been a worthy successor to Gloria Swanson. We'd have been spared the Andrew Lloyd Webber/Glenn Close abomination.

I wonder possibly if that's the one Sondheim wanted to do but Wilder said to him it needed to be an opera. I read that Jeanette was also up for the mother superior in SOM.

(507) Yes that is the one Prince was going to produce.

Both Jeanette and Irene Dunne were considered for the Mother Superior but Jeanette had heart surgery performed by Dr Michael DeBakey in Houston in 1963 and so the talk never proceeded any further.

"In the early 1960s, Stephen Sondheim outlined a musical stage adaptation and went so far as to compose the first scene with librettist Burt Shevelove. A chance encounter with Billy Wilder at a cocktail party gave Sondheim the opportunity to introduce himself and ask the original film's co-screenwriter and director his opinion of the project (which was to star Jeanette MacDonald). "You can't write a musical about Sunset Boulevard," Wilder responded, "it has to be an opera. After all, it's about a dethroned queen".

r507 Sondheim would have been worthy of tackling Sunset Boulevard. That's also news to me that he might have been involved. After he saw the musical version in LA, Wilder sardonically commented, "It was brilliant. They didn't change a thing."

Jeanette's sister was Blossom Rock, who was most famous for playing Grandmama in the original Addams Family TV series. But her movie career dated back to the 30s when she played bit parts and featured roles under the name Marie Blake.

Blossom once said she didn't look much like her sister because she broke her nose in an accident.

R133 I really wonder about that quote. I know it comes from Ray Newquist's 1980 book Conversations with Joan Crawford but frankly to me it just doesn't sound like her. I wonder if, like Boze Hadley, this Newquist just made quotes up, as Crawford was dead and there was no one to contradict him. Isn't Joan saying she's sure glad she's not a gay icon just a bit too on the nose?

R489, what in the world did Eleanor Powell have to bitch about? She would've been completely forgotten if Haley hadn't included her duet with Astaire in That's Entertainment.

You're right, he did know what he was doing. He chose the best of the clips, and edited them with great skill. That's Entertainment 2 and 3 didn't come anywhere close to the original compilation.

(489) Eleanor Powell was not complaining about the footage that celebrated her dance work in the film. She was complaining about the treatment of Jeanette MacDonald. They were good friends for many years and Eleanor said:

"Jeanette was a far bigger star than most of us at Metro and her films brought in millions. She deserved footage that didn't hold her up to ridicule and instead celebrated her contribution to movie musicals at MGM..."

Eleanor Powell's comment points to the inherent fragility of screen operetta, and how easy it is to ridicule it when taken out of context. Even Nelson Eddy, in his nightclub act, poked fun at his screen persona as the singing Mountie.

Peter Bogdanovich has written about Ernst Lubitsch and his impact on the musical film. He observed, in regard to MacDonald, who made four films with Lubitsch, that there is something slightly absurd about her singing style. Lubitsch, however, was able to walk a fine line between mocking and celebrating the absurdities of operetta. And clearly he had enormous affection for Jeanette, whom he literally made a star with her first film, and showcased her magnificently in all their films together.

Here is a very perceptive short video commentary by Bogdanovich, about "The Merry Widow," from YouTube:

(513) Thank you for sharing that.

Yes, Jeanette and Ernst remained very good friends and hoped to work together again but didn't.

During his latter years, Jeanette and her husband alternated with Anita Loos in having Ernst as a holiday dinner guest at their home and Jeanette sang at his funeral. At the time of his passing, Jeanette and Ernst were hoping to bring "De Rosenkavalier" to the screen.

I recently taught a college course on the sopranos of the 1930's/40's (Jeanette, Deanna, Kathryn, etc.) and was stunned by the response it received.

They were thrilled with these new discoveries and how beautifully they sang - in a style not overly familiar to them.

Jeanette received the biggest positive with Deanna a very close second. It was very gratifying to see them through young eyes and to hear the comments the clips and music engendered.

Yes there were some who found it slightly corny but they could not deny the talent.

Ah, thanks for the clarification R514. I'd forgotten this thread jumped the shark about 150 posts ago and turned into the 'Poor, Suffering Jeannette MacDonald Fangurl Appreciation Thread'. :)

Good points R515, even if they'd been said before. I don't think there's any way -- especially in the 1970's -- that screen operetta could've been presented where it would've been appreciated to the same degree that the other clips received in TE.

So...what other stars of Hollywood's Golden Age were genuinely homophobic?

Question for Dickie (and of course others):

I'm curious if you ever met Franklin Pangborn, Eric Blore or Edward Everett Horton, and if they were beloved or at least appreciated by their co-stars? Horton seemed to work for almost 65-70 years, so no one could say he was unprofessional.

r519 I certainly know of all three of these actors. Each is among my favorites and I always enjoy their screen time. However, Pangborn and Blore died before I was even born, and I never met Edward Everett Horton. I think it's great, though, that the city of LA has a street named Edward Everett Horton Lane.

R506 Glad you enjoyed "Love Me Tonight". Not only was the use of sound innovative, it was perhaps also the first use of zoom lense, also uses of slow motion and fast motion in the wonderful horse race sequence (of which a big part is copied in "Auntie Mame" and "Mame" with a fox substituted for the deer). Plus, the whole sequence of "Isn't It Romantic" starts with the leading man, is carried by various other characters -- customer, taxi driver, composer, army battalion, gypsy violinist, chorus of gypsies until it is finally sung by leading lady Jeanette McDonald, thus connecting the leading man and leading lady before they've even met. It's a wonderful sequence. Someone told me they think "Beauty and Beast" used this in their "Belle" sequence, but I don't think the melody got as far as connecting the leady lady and her ultimate leading man. I also love how "Love Me Tonight" uses Jeanette's love of riding -- there are sequences where she's absolutely doing some dangerous riding, like alongside the train. The studio didn't want her doing all this, but the "Iron Butterfly" insisted. She even sang "Lover" in such a charming way while riding, that even though it's never repeated in the film, it became a standard anyway. Very innovative film that still delights today.

Not horse race, I meant hunt sequence with horses!

Gene Kelly was said to have had a big penis and would often let gay crew members take a gander during filming.

Was Barbara Stanwyck homophobic in any way?

r521 Another memorable sequence in Love Me Tonight was the use of a diagonal split screen during the duet of the title song. It slyly gave the impression that MacDonald and Chevalier were in bed together. Making the split on a diagonal really increased the sexual element. I can't imagine a post-Code version of this.

Barbara Stanwyck allegedly did not like gay men.

^^^Including her "husband". At least during the last few years of their marriage, according to Farley Granger.

[quote]Any dirt on Ramon Novarro?

According to the Scotty Bowers book, he liked to order up a baker's dozen of boys and suck them all off. He called their cum "honey."

R528, Cole Porter would place similar orders with Scotty.

Mamoulian was not only revolutionary in his use of sound in musicals he directed the first 3 color Technicolor film Becky Sharp .Then he went on to direct the original Broadway productions of Porgy and Bess, Oklahoma and Carousel. I highly recommend his early sound film Applause with Jane Morgan.

[quote] Diahann Carroll, performing at an outdoor concert in the 1970s, felt the audience wasn't being generous enough with their applause. She looked out at the audience and asked, "Are you all faggots?"

I have to applaud whatever DL'er is DETERMINED to mention this at every possible opportunity. Brava!

The Lubitsch Merry Widow had its world premiere at the Astor Theater in Times Square where the Marriott now stands. This is what the NY Times had to say about the event:

The new Ernst Lubitsch confection, a witty and incandescent rendition of "The Merry Widow," had its first public hearing on this earth last night at the Astor, where it was presented amid the tumult and the shouting which befit important cinema openings and perhaps the coronation of emperors. The overhead arc lamps threw a weird blue mist which was visible up and down Broadway. According to Major Bowes, whose first-hand description from the lobby came thundering to the crowds outside through a loud speaker, enough stars were present to outfit a new universe. Mounted policemen clattered up on the sidewalk and gallantly beat back the surging proletariat. Miss MacDonald announced that her heart was full of gratitude. When Franz Lehar's name was flashed on the screen, everybody applauded, and necks were craned in an effort to discover if Mr. Lehar was in the house. Then, or a bit later, the show went on.

R530.

Oh dear!!!!

In her later life, most of Bette Davis's friends were gay men.

Bette Davis came to Seattle in a traveling show about her life. My friend Patty and I went. We were very brave and always went back stage to try and meet celebrities and ballet dancers when they came to town. She and i went to the same ballet school when we were teenagers. After the show we followed Bette Davis out to her limo to try and get her autograph. Bette was wearing this huge mink coat. There was a problem with her limo and we got to talk to her for around 15 minutes. She was very nice and let Patty try on her mink. She talked about her gay fans and how they were showing up at everyone of her appearances on this tour. She said they knew more about her than she did about herself. Bette was very-very small and I was 6'5" tall. I wish we had gotten pictures.

Looks like it must have been 1974....

Diahann Carroll, performing at an outdoor concert in the 1970s, felt the audience wasn't being generous enough with their applause. She looked out at the audience and asked, "Are you all faggots?"

r537 Yes, we heard you the first time.

Was Charlie Ruggles family? He was kind of cute when he was younger and still fun as Grandpa in the original "Parent Trap". He's great in stuff like the wonderful Lubitsch "Trouble in Paradise". Speaking of Eric Blore above, was Erik Rhodes, from 2 of the Astaire-Rogers films family? He was really cute and had a very nice singing voice. Later on, he's on the OCR of "Can-Can" alongside Lilo, Gwen Verdon and Hans Conried and the rather strong-voiced Peter Cookson. Mr. Rhodes was quite dashing and fun in both "Top Hat" and "The Gay Divorcee", and I'm surprised that didn't lead to better film roles.

I always confuse Charles Ruggles with Charles Farrell.

Charles Farrell's MALE bed partners never got confused. Farrell was long and very, very thick.

R537, that reminds me of the time Miss Helen Lawson performed at the Cafe Caryle, accompanied by Mr. George Feyer. She had a little too much to drink and went off script, bantering on and on, telling lewd, offensive jokes. As certain audience members got up to leave, she hissed, "What a square crowd! Where are all my fags tonight?? They can take a joke!" That Helen really appreciated her fans.

The first time she rehearsed the "One of the Boys" numbers for "Woman of the Year", Lauren turned to the choreographer, Tony Charmoli, who was gay (and passed away in 2020) and said, "Is every guy in this number a fag?"

Charmoli was mortified, walked off the stage and had to be coaxed to return. Bacall never apologized.

Raquel, on the other hand loved working with the guys and to friends referred to them as "my boys"

Any gossip about either Richard Widmark or Paul Muni? Friends or foes?

That's odd of Bacall because Applause was filled with gays Including the director/choreographer. And Lee Roy Reams who played her gay hairdresser had nothing but wonderful things to say about her in a podcast when she died.

(546) I have no first hand info about that but I witnessed the "Woman of the Year" situation since I was "One of the Fags" in the number, remaining with the show and working with Raquel, who could not have been nicer. In fact she sent me and my partner cards each year for Christmas and when we eventually got married, a thoughtful gift.

I'd be willing to bet that the majority of Betty Bacall's male friends were gay.

My boyfriend and I were friends with a woman who was the ex-wife of a minor 1950s actor, and who had an even more minor career of her own - some fleeting soap opera, TV commercials, bottom tier stock. She and my boyfriend worked together and became friends. She would behave very over-the-top 'camp' with us, in her comments and manners, which I think is how she viewed gay people. It wasn't exactly homophobic, but one had the sense that she did view gays as being of a lower order than straights. She had two grown sons and once said she was glad they didn't turn out gay.

I think that kind of attitude was common in Hollywood.

[quote]She had two grown sons and once said she was glad they didn't turn out gay.

You should have squealed in the queeniest voice possible: "Oh, guuuuuuuuurl, you better be sittin' down, Miss Thing. 'Cause Mama got some scalding tea to pour for you about that little topic. Yes, girl, indeed I do! Let us commence with the younger one."

(543) Here.

I have no doubt that Lauren knew many gay men and probably found those, who could do something for her, even if nothing more than escort her. However, it was obvious that she looked at the choreographer and the chorus boys in a completely different way. WE were there to make her somewhat limited dancing look really good in that number and other numbers. We weren't people that she would engage in conversation with and I don't think during the entire run of the show, she knew anyone's name, including those who worked most closely with her in a scene.

She treated Marilyn Cooper like she was a cleaning lady, was abysmal to the two gals who performed, "I Wrote the Book" with her, but saved most of her caustic comments for the chorus.

One night, after a performance that had been attended by a friend of hers, who was extremely fey, she was introducing him to several cast members. He was clearly eyeing the chorus guys and even said to Lauren, "What about them?" (I think he wanted to be introduced in order to make a pass).

Lauren's reply was "Oh they're all the same!"

Why didn't you drop a heavy piece of scenery on her?

You should have thrown a pot of High Point coffee at her

R551, as I courtesy, I’m letting you know the practice here in referring to another poster of post is to type the letter r immediately followed by the reply number thereby allowing readers to link directly to the previous poster, r551, r543.

Cesar Romero attended one evening and around him she was very charming and gracious and I have no doubt they'd been friends for a long time and that, around him in any setting, she would come across as accepting of everyone. Around us, however, it was a different story and she and Harry Guardino would mimic some of the gay cast members for laughs.

Marilyn Cooper saw them do it once and was very direct in saying, "These guys are the heart and soul and bedrock of Broadway" WE all loved Marilyn.

R554 Thank you!! Glad I learned something new and hope some other posters who did the same thing I did, see your post.

The only thing I saw Marilyn Cooper in was On the Town. She was fabulous. I'll never forget when she said 'Goodbye Mr. Chips' and brought down the entire Imperial. I marveled (I was pretty young) that with just 3 words a performer could make 1,500 people laugh out loud.

R551, Apparently, Marilyn Cooper held Miss Bacall in higher regard.

r558 Is there a sane explanation for Bea's hair in that clip?

R559, Yes, Aqua Net.

Wait...but how did she treat DL legend, Bonnie Franklin and how did Bonnie treat the gays?

Like this, R561:

R559 - There was a whole thread on Bea's hair at the 1981 Tonys.

Was that more productive than the thread about her vagina?

Shirley Hemphill wanted to bump donuts with Mabel King but she said "no thank you, I'm a married woman and a Christian" and that was the end of it.

To reference another post in the same thread, simply type R and the post number. EG.

You are absolutely correct R# and you are obviously a lovely person. Thank you for your contribution to the conversation... (well, perhaps in an alternate universe's DataLounge anyway)

I saw Bonnie Franklin at the AIDS Memorial Quilt when it was being displayed on the Mall in Washington. She was very friendly to everyone, not homophobic at all.

I wonder what director Frank Capra thought of the gays. My half-sisters and step-dad are related to him. I haven't seen it in quite a while, but in Lady For A Day, there was a gay hairdresser or something and he was in the room with the girls getting dressed and a male character was like "he can't be in there!" and a girl starts to close the door saying "It's okayyyy" and he says "ohhhhh". Again, I can't remember the scene perfectly. I thought, for a very old movie, that was about as positive as I've ever seen a gay character portrayed. Is it a stereotype? Sure, but there was no crass remarks that I remember and they basically just say it's fine that he's watching women undress because he's not interested.

R568, Sweetie, that was 1933.

r581 A couple of years after "Woman of the Year" I worked with Bonnie as part of a big production number for 1985's "Night of 100 Stars: 2"

The number, "Brand New Pair of Shoes" featured just about every dancer still alive and we spent hours rehearsing the lengthy piece. Bonnie went out of her way to mingle with everyone, especially the chorus and could not have been nicer.

r476 Dirk and his long-term partner Tony Forwood:

R570, uh...there is no R581, yet. But I'm curious to hear your impressions of Donald O'Connor. Also wondering how many oxygen tanks they had off-stage for the hefty Miss Rogers?

r526 Really? Any furthur details please?

r572 Donald O' Connor was very nice - possibly slightly inebriated - but not certain as I was not near enough to him to tell. I had worked with Ginger at Radio City in 1980 when she did her show. She was very sweet to everyone BUT would not do the dancing that had been planned for her to do in the show.

Ultimately audiences were disappointed that she really didn't dance at all. She moved, very gracefully, around the stage and did a number called, "My Big Moment" with a group of us. It seemed, to the audience, as though she was going to segue into a dance number but did not. She sang songs from her films but that was it.

A friend of mine danced in her show in 1976 at a number of eastern theaters and she had four dancers and did quite a bit. However, in 1980 at the Music Hall, there was nothing.

She didn't look well in 1985 at "Night of 100 Stars 2". I don't think she was on medication because her Christian Science Faith would not allow it. But she was not very connected to what was happening. She rehearsed very long and hard for her brief bit at the end when Dick brings her down and everyone launches into a soft shoe dance but she didn't move well.

WE had to do the entire number a second time because there were tech issues and it was being filmed for eventual broadcast. The audience cheered when it was announced. Ginger looked shell shocked and said, "Oh my God, no!". She did it, however, and the second time moved much better than the first.

A favorite Ginger moment . . . Lucie Arnaz claims that Ginger and Lucy were distant cousins.

[quote] Lucie Arnaz claims that Ginger and Lucy were distant cousins.

Does that explain why both Ginger and Lucy were such big Republicunts?

R574, thank you SO MUCH. Seriously, I've felt for years that I was the only person in the world who thought Ginger Rogers just walked through (almost literally) all her "dancing" performances from about 1960 onwards. They're truly painful to watch, as was the Night of a Hundred Stars segment.

But knowing that she refused to learn any steps says a lot. Helps explain why she comes of so poorly in clips from the Hollywood Palace, Perry Como's show, all the way through her stage work in Hello Dolly and her Vegas acts, etc.. I think it also explains her rather defensive nature in interviews about her partnership w/Astaire. It's telling too that Hermes Pan dubbed her taps. She was great with Fred, but there clearly must've been a good reason to have Pan dub them rather than Ginger herself.

She was good -- for those 20 seconds -- on the Lucy Show, and also good reunited w/Astaire at the Oscars in '67, but that's clearly a testament to both his power of persuasion and his innate skill choreographing a simple walk-on.

I believe O'Connor quit drinking (under an ultimatum from his wife) around 1979-1980, so I hope he hadn't slipped back for that show. He did a big production number for the Oscars in 1981, kind of a comeback thing, and brought the house down with a standing ovation, so again...I hope it just seemed that way, and he really wasn't drunk. He did always seem like a nice guy...

Thanks again. Truly.

Did Donald O'Connor ever play "Buddy" in a production of FOLLIES?

It would seem a natural role for him, as it was for Gene Nelson.

R577, Ginger toured with a nightclub act in the mid-1970s, which included several male dancers.

I recall Rex Reed raving about it when she played NYC, and Rex was never easy to please.

R575, Ginger was my wife Phyllis' cousin, as well.

Ginger was supposed to have been a bitch but she's coming across well here. She attempted to sue Fellini when he came out with his film Fred and Ginger. He was shocked and upset. He meant it as a tribute and then she turns on him. He said when he was a child and went to their movies it gave people so much joy and happiness and then to have that happen. He was very disillusioned

Ginger was also angry that Woody Allen used clips from "Top Hat" in "The Purple Rose of Cairo".

Ginger was the type of Republican who can be very sweet... until money is involved. She was always worried that someone was stealing an asset of hers. She went a bit bonkers in the 1970s during the nostalgia craze because the studio owned all the images. She did not get a penny off of it. Every time she saw a poster, figurine, or cookie jar she was seething. It represented money she lost. I was fortunate that my interest in nostalgia tended towards silent movies, still, my mother insisted that my bedroom door be closed when she was over.

She was also very anti-commie. OK, it was the 1970s; so, it wasn't something to which I related, but to me, she seemed like a cartoon when she got on her anti-commie schtick. She would go off anytime she heard of a school doing any sort of community project. Food drives = communism.

A lot of Hollywood people who had hardscrabble childhoods - Rogers, Stanwyck, Lucy, et. al. - developed an attitude that is common among today's MAGAts (and more than a few DLers, alas): the government didn't give me a handout and I ended up doing fine, so why should they help anyone else? Anticommunism in the 50s was a convenient excuse to shut down any social programs. Today they use Jesus instead.

Rogers also had the disadvantage of being raised by her absolutely nutty mother Lela, and the apple did not fall far from the tree.

r579 I saw that show in the 70's and knew two of the dancers who worked with her (Ron Steinbeck and Jeff Parker, who'd learned tap from Eleanor Powell in the late 60's and early 70's). Ginger worked very hard to keep up with the "Four Freds" as she called them.

She did not embarrass herself.

In 1980 at the Music Hall she hadn't looked as good as she did in years. She was very slim and her hair, which was sometimes like straw, was in really good shape too. However, as I noted, she had been expected to do some dancing and the show was a sell-out but she moved gracefully and seemed ready to launch into a dance which had the audience breathless with anticipation, and then nothing.

That same year she did a "Love Boat" and danced briefly as well as doing some moves to the song "Love Will Keep Us Together" but they were moves that a first year dance student could have done.

She had privately consulted Oona White about dance steps that would be limited but look far better.

I will say this on her behalf - she loved gays. She had absolutely no compunction about expressing her feelings toward us or showing affection. For me one of the highpoints of her "Night of 100 Stars 2" appearance was a couple of second we had to chat.

She asked me whether I'd lost any of my friends to the growing epidemic and when I said yes (half the guys I danced with in "Woman of the Year"), she hugged me and said how sorry she was. (When we hugged she felt as though she was corseted ala Scarlett in "GWTW"). And unaware of how to do what amounted to a time step.

The last time I saw her was in Boston in 1991 when she was promoting her book. (I won't say autobiography since it was pretty much factually incorrect).

She was in a wheelchair and looked awful. However mentally she was sharper than in 1985.

Before I could say anything, she called me by name and remembered we'd chatted 6 years earlier.

When I left, she grabbed my hand and squeezed it as though to say goodbye.

I liked her because she always tried to play the "Star" but I was disappointed with her being willing to coast on her reputation and not work as hard as she should have in the instances that we worked together.

She had serious issues with her mother who was a first class bitch. I have little doubt that some of that probably rubbed off on Ginger. However, one on one with me, she was sweet and caring in a way that an slightly eccentric aunt might be.

Ginger's mother, Lela, was very close to J. Edgar Hoover.

In the 1930s, there were even rumors that they might marry, which seems ridiculous given what we now know of his private life.

Ginger gave one of the worst performances in the history of films in "Black Widow"(1954).

I like Black Widow for its camp quality, but it was undone by really bad casting. Ginger was not the only one miscast. The effete Reginald Gardiner was supposed to play a pussyhound, while the plain-looking former child star Peggy Ann Garner tried to play a nympho slut. Ginger as a Tallulah-like Broadway star looked good in comparison.

And Ginger gave one of her best performances in The Major and the Minor (1942) which I could imagine being made today.

R589 That should have read 'that I couldn't imagine being made today'.

r589 I agree about "The Major and the Minor" and even Ginger's mom, Lela, playing Ginger's mom, does a respectable job.

A wonderful film.

Ginger Rogers won the Oscar that should've gone to Bette Davis for "The Letter."

R592, Or Joan Fontaine for "Rebecca".

This has been one of the best threads I've experienced in years. While we frequently deviated from the original intent, those deviations were to fascinating and interesting areas.

Fun, informative and Data Lounge at its best.

[quote]Fun, informative and Data Lounge at its best.

No fraus and no Wokes. That's why.

Indeed

Lew Ayres has an interview on youtube from '95. I find him one of the cutest actors from Hollywood's golden age and his performance in Holiday is one of my favorites. He was married to Rogers in the 30s when she was at the height of her success with Astaire. He said they couldn't remain married because they were both so busy. But he says she was always a wonderful person. Her young female companion/personal assistant who took care of her at the end of her life said that Lew Ayres was the love of her life.

He had to work with George Cukor on All Quiet on the Western Front as he was the dialogue coach. He was hesitant at first as he had heard the rumors but said Cukor was a perfect gentleman. I like to imagine him as one of the young men at Cukor's Sunday afternoon pool parties.

When this thread is done, let's keep going! Love it. 💛

Roberta Olden was Ginger's personal assistant and companion and was truly remarkable - more of a daughter to Ginger and unselfish.

I met Lew several times, socially, and he was a true gentleman who spoke very warmly about Ginger. At that 1991 book event, I relayed to her a conversation I'd had with Lew in the 1980's and what he'd said about her. Hearing it made her face light up and she replied, "dear, dear Lew"

This Ginger Rogers/Joan Rivers interview is fun.