What makes an artist

I disagree and think Madonna is both an artist and an entertainer.

I don't think "artist" is that deep. Madonna's easily an artist to me. Whether she or anyone else is a good or great artist is an entirely different question,.

Artists can create art in a self-conscious way. Pop music can be art.

Oh, go jump into an active volcano.

It’s not that serious OP. Lighten up. Art is subjective. This question has no resolution, or real function.

The word artist is overused.

Justin Bieber, SnoopDog, that WAP woman, and Lavarious Slaughter are NOT artists. They are trash.

R5, why do I get the impression that nothing is "that serious" to you? It is that serious. Art is what makes life worthwhile. At least to people with any real depth of spirit. The ability of humans to create art is everything. A world without art, well, you're seeing it now. And it's only going to get worse. People are truly becoming soulless and the world is getting really bleak, depressing, and unbearable because we don't appreciate art, we just consume consume consume and use everything up and there's no reflection or appreciation or understanding or empathy anymore.

Art is what makes life worth living. If we never see ourselves reflected in another, if there is no true understanding, empathy, validation, or love, there is nothing.

True artistry also requires cosmic vision, which many people in general lack.

Where's that fucking worthless Tori Amos Troll trash?

"ART!"

Art? Tori Amos is a fucking Kate Bush ripoff wannabe.

"ART!"

You're full of shit, OP, Gaga Stan. Madonna is an artist. Go fuck off.

None of the names mentioned in this thread so far fit my definition of an artist.

An artist improves life.

[quote]One of the reasons Madonna truly disliked Lady Gaga

Did she really though? Dislike her? Or was it just made up bullshit by the music media.

Madonna is out of Lady Gaga's stratosphere in terms of career. Madonna has had decades of being at the top whereas Gaga had a couple of years of being super popular and gimmicky and has now faded away. Almost totally. This is the same old tired argument as the Madonna/Janet Jackson comparison - when the two are not in the same league and incomparable.

R13, I think Madonna and Lady Gaga are about equal in terms of stature at this point.

Gaga's music will leave a much bigger impact on the world than Madonna's. She has truly great albums with iconic themes (The Fame Monster, Born This Way, Chromatica, and even ARTPOP) that are becoming cult classics, which will endure into the future. Most of Madonna's music is shallow, if we're being honest.

[quote]I think Madonna and Lady Gaga are about equal in terms of stature at this point.

No R14. They aren't.

Lady Gaga will NEVER have a song with the long-lasting popularity and impact of "Into The Groove."

That right there destroys your ridiculous claim, GagStan at R14.

Plus, many, many more giant hits with cultural impact status by Madonna ensures that Gags will never even remotely come close to Madonna in stature and enduring popularity.

HOLIDAY

LIVE TO TELL

LIKE A PRAYER

VOGUE

BORDERLINE

CRAZY FOR YOU

RAY OF LIGHT

INTO THE GROOVE

OPEN YOUR HEART

And on and on... Madonna has more of an impact on the world with that handful of songs than Gag will ever have with her "iconic themes" and "cult classics."

R7 you misunderstand. The question as to whether something qualifies as ‘art’ when that in itself is a subjective term is what is ‘not that serious’. I wasn’t suggesting that music isn’t important. You’re doing the most tho in this thread which is fun. And FWIW I love Madonna.

[quote]Gaga's music will leave a much bigger impact on the world than Madonna's.

This is an unbelievably PREPOSTEROUS thing to claim.

Someone can be an artist and still make bad art. Which is what Madonna has made, most of the time.

Bowie was an artist. Madonna is a first-class entertainer (I'm referring to her live shows) who wants to be an artist but never quite gets there.

On Bowie as an artist:

"Bowie used the art inside him to become a popular legend we all know and love. He was authentic and that’s why he really did blow our minds, multiple times in his lifetime.

And that precisely, is the true mark of an artist. Taking pieces from your soul and turning them into art with the fabric of love, curiosity and passion.

Bowie was the quintessential avant-garde artist — someone who pushed the limits and standards a bit further. Someone who never settled with an insatiable curiosity to explore what life had to offer.

He knew and understood that the purpose of art isn’t validation but creation. It’s not competition, but expression."

Art is supposed to be provocative. To make you think, feel, question things on a personal level. In that sense Madonna is artist. It’s different than a person who just provokes - like the kardashians. They do stuff to just draw attention to themselves. There is nothing deep.

R18, actually it isn't. Gaga's music has way more substance and creativity to it than Madonna's ever did.

And R16, Gaga has just as many if not more immortal hits than Madonna:

JUST DANCE POKER FACE PAPARAZZI BAD ROMANCE ALEJANDRO TELEPHONE BORN THIS WAY JUDAS THE EDGE OF GLORY YOU AND I APPLAUSE MILLION REASONS SHALLOW ALWAYS REMEMBER US THIS WAY RAIN ON ME

In just 12 years of career. But alas, this thread is not about hit songs.

There's plenty of entertainment value in Madonna's work, but her true art has been her ability to reimagine herself every few years. It hasn't been working so well for the past 10/15 years, but she was genius at it for awhile.

Real art does need to speak to the soul and say something about the human condition that's resonates with us. I really don't think much of Gaga's work has this either, though she tries.

None of those Gag-worthy songs are cultural icons like INTO THE GROOVE.

I think 3rd Graders might know POKE HER FACE but that's about it.

EVERYONE knows INTO THE GROOVE.

OP is talking out of her prolapsed cunt. Madonna has always been an artist in the same way that MJ, Prince, or any other 80s pop tart is an artist. She has always been involved with songwriting, and every aspect of song structure, musical choices. I don't even like Vadge as a person but I will defend her artistic integrity. She wouldn't have sold hundreds of millions of albums, CDs, singles if she wasn't artistically talented, which she is. Very few people are at her level of achievement. Celine Dion. Lady Gaga. Beyonce. Even nutbag Mariah Carey have been at the top tier of entertainers like ARTIST Madonna. OMFG I have to go puke now for defending Vadge.

Madonna was not a good example to use because she's always been very creative and visual. And she delved into dance, film and writing.

I am suspicious that this thread is just the latest tactic in Janbot's arsenal as a way to concoct another thread shitting all over Madonna.

Anyone else?

Isn’t it amazing that in human history art precedes agriculture?

In human history hunting wooly mammoths precedes agriculture.

AFAIC art arrived in the Renaissance.

[quote] One of the reasons Madonna truly disliked Lady Gaga was that she had surpassed her very early on by becoming an artist. Gaga had enough empathy and creativity as a writer and a singer to be able to express very internal fears and neuroses as universal, things that we all feel and experience

LOL! No. She expressed herself way better with her early songs like "Paparazzi", "Poker Face" and "Bad Romance"--which I'm guessing is largely due to Red One. She became unbearable when she decided to become an "artist". Madonna could be artistic (Ray of Light, Like a Prayer, her ballads, etc) without being boring, something Gaga struggles with.

r30 yes, red one's stuff is great. The gaga stuff after it doesn't have the same magic.

Madonna's artistry is on full display with Madame X. She's no longer giving a shit about making dance music. I'd call the album dreadful but its just not for me. I want songs I can listen to on the treadmill, not Madonna mashed up with whatever world music she'd into this year.

Gaga borrows from Madonna's melodies, totally ripped off Express Yourself and Open Your Heart.

OP is clearly a manic depressive off her meds. Her psychotic ranting rivals Janbot in its delusions. "Cosmic" vision. Only someone manic and psychotic speaks like that. Get help.

Don’t think it’s any accident that Madge shares her name with the 6th Century Welsh Saint, who died defending her prize ram from livestock bandits.

Art is what is lost in description.

McDonna is not an artist. Quit posting threads about this washed up, delusional hag.

Pop music--dancey, fun, get-up-and-party pop music--can absolutely be an art, and its creators artists.

I'm not sure Madonna is. I think she's come close a number of times, but I don't think it's ever been her primary concern.

I'd contrast her with someone like Robyn, who writes, records, and produces her own material (and DJs). Her songs are deceptively simple sounding but infectious, and her lyrics are often rich in psychology and character (and English isn't even her native language). Robyn is the real deal. It's always more about the song and less about the personna for her.

I agree r16. "Holiday," for example is almost 40 years old and you still hear it all the time.

Madonna is a vapid narcissist, it's no wonder she can't relate to the average person.

I'm not Gaga's biggest fan--I fear the Lady has lost her way over the last decade.

But her early good work is as good as Madonna's early good work, IMHO.

(It would also be almost impossible without Madonna, though. Or highly unlikely.)

[quote]Gaga's music will leave a much bigger impact on the world than Madonna's.

Did you type that with a straight face?

Madonna and Gaga seriously?

Joni Mitchell, Jill Scott, Fiona Apple, Erykah Badu, Kate Bush, Odette, Lauryn Hill, Solange and Alanis Morissette are artists.

Janelle Monae is what Gaga wishes she could be

It’s more interesting to think about the music that lasts. In 50 years will people listen to Madonna and Gaga the way they listen to Ella Fitzgerald or Billie Holliday. No. Too pop and not enough emotion and soul in either.

Madonna and Gaga are brands. Just the face to sell the product of songwriters, producers and fashion designers. They operate their own brand and are involved with crafting their looks, sound and the final product.

I can't say they are on the level of Aretha Franklin, Elvis Presley, The Beatles, James Brown, Etta James, Beach Boys, Joni Mitchell, David Bowie etc.

Madonna isn't more talented than Whitney Houston or George Michael but she was just business savvy and knew what sold and kept herself alive longer. So she is more successful but I don't think she made much of an impact on art or music. She didn't originate anything. Her impact is mostly on pop culture.

Perfectly said OP and two perfect examples, I agree totally.

FYI, unlike some of the bloviating queens on this thread, I actually went to art school. OP is correct in his assertion. Calling everyone in music an artist is a disservice to the true artists.

[quote] I think 3rd Graders might know POKE HER FACE but that's about it. EVERYONE knows INTO THE GROOVE.

Wow Gramps, sit down and finish your prune juice. Into the Grove has faded into the sunset long ago, nobody has played that song in a bar or club for ages unless it's senior's night at the old gay bar. By 3rd graders, you must mean 30 something year old Millennials, that's who grew up with Gaga Gramps.

[quote]Gaga's music will leave a much bigger impact on the world than Madonna's.

It already has.

Gaga peaked with The Fame Monster. I'm a millennial who was in high school during her height of fame. She hasn't really been interesting since then. Plus she never really added anything new or unique to music either. A lot of Gaga's early sound is derivative of 80s synthpop and New Wave and she dabbled in different genres but never really stood out in anything. She and Madonna are both very image and spectacle over musical substance.

If you want to discuss current people who fit the label of artist then we can talk Lorde, Frank Ocean, Solange, fka twigs, Tyler the Creator and Janelle Monae.

R45 O puke, bish. Whitney never wrote anything, couldn't dance, and had maybe three years of peak vocal performance. During most of her fifteen minutes of fame she couldn't sing because she destroyed her voice with crack and a lifetime of drugs. Writing and publishing is where the real money is, that's why Dolly Parton is worth 800 million and Whitney died penniless.

R43, I disagree, I believe Gaga is a greater artist than Janelle Monae. Monae only had one good album (her debut), and her other albums after that were weak to flat out bad (especially Dirty Computer, yikes).

Gaga is actually a great artist. Her best album is Chromatica, a truly wondrous feat that not many people have heard yet. Also disagree, R44, Gaga's music is infused with a lot of feeling and emotion, especially albums like The Fame Monster, Born This Way, and especially Chromatica.

I'd say Gaga is probably the most exciting artist in popular music currently. That drony listless sound that Frank Ocean, Solange, etc are pushing ain't it to me.

I like Frank Ocean very much, especially Channel Orange, but the second album Blonde was very humdrum in parts. Solange can also be very drony and humdrum.