Why is "Gypsy" the greatest musical?

Gypsy's okay, but I never think "I want to see another Gypsy!"

It's not fool proof--as the Bernadette Peters version didn't work for me at all.

Honestly, Follies is the same. It's fine when I watch it but I certainly don't obsess over it.

Mama Rose is probably one of the top 3 greatest characters in American musical theater. Then you’ve got comedy, drama, child abuse, seedy strippers, and fabulous songs.

Does anyone besides me remember the Broadway Queen from once upon a time on DL who would throw a fit if you referred to the main character as "Mama [or Momma] Rose"? He insisted you HAD to refer to her as "Rose" or "Madam Rose," since that's how she's listed in the program.

Yeah I would agree Gypsy is the best. It IS the story of showbiz

Gypsy's fine but I sick of it, to tell you the truth. I don't want to see another Gypsy ever again (ok, only if Audra does it)

I suppose it's a fun intellectual exercise to identify "the greatest musical," but I hope we all realize it's pointless and foolish to argue that any single show is ACTUALLY "the greatest," because different shows are great in different ways. For example, how can you compare the score of GYPSY to that of CAROUSEL? Both phenomenal, genius scores, but in completely different styles.

Gypsy is without a doubt the greater score. It had one of the great Broadway composers working at his best.

In my life, the best Bway experiences I had were Chicago (early in the run of the current revival), Rent, and The Lion King. Hamilton and the original Evita were pretty good too.

I've seen most of the Gypsys and they don't even show up on my list until we get to the teens.

Gypsy is also an universal yet American story told through musical theater, and it has withstood test of time against other shows with arguably more memorable or better songs. Shows like Carousel and Oklahoma! come to mind. I happen to think Oklahoma! is a better musical both score and as a complete musical. But there’s something very universal about Gypsy and it still applies today. Striving to achieve to be greater than what you’ve got, and you take what you’ve got to make it. Don’t let conventions dictate to you otherwise. Whereas the better score and dance sequences in Oklahoma! are bogged down by conventional story of people wanting to get married/ settled down and live American apple pie kind of life.

Gypsy is a very compelling, dark story about twisted people hidden underneath fabulous show tunes and lots of razzmatazz and showstoppers.

R3 But most theater queens DO know that. I was just about to admonish R2 for his error. LOL

[quote] only if Audra does it

Audra as Rose....intriguing possibility.

She'd have to come down out of the opera rafters with her singing voice, though.

Why is she called Madam Rose in the program? Is she ever addressed like that in the show?

Because it's so fun to belt out "Hold your hats and hallelujah. Mama's gonna show it to you!"

My favorite

R12, I'm guessing Audra as Rose wouldn't happen for another decade. By then, she'll be all chest voice.

Who claimed that it is?

R15, Loved the LuPone version the most

It isn't.

[quote] Why is she called Madam Rose in the program? Is she ever addressed like that in the show?

She's called "Rose" in the program, and when Louise and the girls are doing a vaudeville act it is billed as "Madam Rose's Hollywood Blondes." She is never addressed nor billed in the show as Momma Rose.

But "Momma Rose" is what everyone who talks about the show refers to her as, since the girls always address her and refer to her as "Momma" and Herbie addresses her and refers to her as "Rose."

Unlike a lot of musicals, the book is really solid and could probably work as a compelling play by itself. Add in that score and how could it not work? Rose is still just as compelling a character and truly one of the greatest roles for the stage (male or female/musical or straight play).

The issue is that it's a very truthful show and has a lot of depressing things to say about show business and parent/child relationships. For this reason, it's never been a sure fire crowd pleaser and even the most star studded revival or film adaptation can leave a bad taste in people's mouths. I don't see that changing anytime soon. Some people still don't want to see a show like this. For a show to still be as thought provoking over half a century later means that it'll probably be here long after most of us are gone. It still resonates.

Nobody, outside of a few Broadway queens on Datalounge, has even heard of "Follies", let alone seen it.

I Saw Tyne Daly, Bernadette Peters, and Patti Lupone. Peters was a distant third.

Didn't see the show after Linda Lavin replaced Tyne Daly. That might have scarred me for life.

I'm not a theater person, so this is just a lay opinion, but Tyne Daly affected me the most.

And I think the greatest Louise of all time was Natalie Wood.

[quote]Why is "Gypsy" the greatest musical?

THE WRITING!

Gypsy is special in that the second lead as opposed to marquee name of the show, is actually the star and story of the show. Inadvertently I’m sure but it was that way from the beginning.

I would hardly call Gypsy the greatest musical of all time.

Ethel Merman was a fat gasbag who only had one range: Shrill.

[quote] Ethel Merman was a fat gasbag who only had one range: Shrill.

That rustling you hear are the caftans of dozens of DL'ers reaching for their pearls and gasping.....

M

A

R

Y

!!!!!!!!!!

I don't need to see GYPSY revived again any time soon, either (and that goes for FOLLIES).

That said, Rose and Louise are complex, fully-formed, dimensional characters, and their musical moments can be quite moving. And funny. The book and score of GYPSY are classic and have a universal appeal.

FOLLIES has some striking moments, but the main characters always felt like fragments to me and it's difficult for me to empathize, even with a song as gorgeous as "Losing My Mind." That moment feels a bit... unearned. I don't really understand who Sally is by the end of the show. I definitely don't know Phyllis or the two men at all by the end of the (long) evening, even after all those solo turns.

I would love to see Kathryn Hahn (Agatha/Agnes on "WandaVision") play Momma Rose. She's the right age, is a fine actress, and has a powerful singing voice.

The same thought occurred to me when I saw Kathryn Hahn in Bad Moms. I'm not sure if she could sing it as I'm not familiar with her range, but the best Rose I've seen was Tyne Daly and she wasn't the world's best singer, but managed to sell the songs anyway. Only someone like Hahn or Toni Collette would get me back into a theater to see a production or film of Gypsy.

Gypsy.

And wee nasties who conflate a book musical with one performer ought to be locked out of the theater. There always was something very funny about Merman in one of her rare quieter, more sensitive moments. It always seemed more effective because of the surprise, even as you could see the words in neon: "You want nuanced? I'll give you nuanced!"

Tyne Daly showed a little much desperation and self-awareness for me. Rose's version of cathartic breakthrough is Mama's Turn - the depth is all on the surface.

I do like the fact that the real Rose was likely a murderer. VERY interesting stories from her true life. She DID do everything she possible could for her family.

The worst Rose (and worst production of GYPSY) for me remains Bette Midler and her made-for-TV version. Largely and deservedly forgotten now.

All the ingredients were there for it to be great--and it wasn't. She wasn't.

As much as I love GYPSY and Ethel Merman (sorry R27) I think the greatest musical is SOUTH PACIFIC.

As good as most of GYPSY's score is, I've never been a fan of 'Little Lamb' and by the time we get to "Madam Rose's Toreadorables', at the top of Act II, I'm really tired of the awful-on-purpose kiddie numbers (Yes, I know the purpose is to show Rose has no imagination and keeps recycling the same tired act, but that doesn't mean I enjoy them). On the other hand, the score of SOUTH PACIFIC is perfect, from first note to last.

(Incidentally, not that it's the final authority on the matter, but SOUTH PACIFC won a Pulitzer Prize for Drama, GYPSY did not).

[quote] All the ingredients were there for it to be great--and it wasn't. She wasn't.

She almost never is.

Dolly was perfect for her....it demanded so little

ALW might have something to say about that.

South Pacific is a practically perfect score with the exception of You've Got to be Taught. I know it's the entire point of the musical but it lays the message on with a trowel(Nellie and Emile have already covered this point in dialogue) and it simply is not as good as the rest of the songs in the show. The people who thought it should be cut were right but I guess we're stuck with it.

I had all the goddam talent in my family, but nobody wants to admit that.

Zero Tony wins for the original Broadway production. That's really surprising.

My favorite will always be South Pacific. Beautiful music and story.

South Pacific is a great musical but it hasn’t aged well. Gypsy is that rare time capsule piece that has, compared to its contemporaries. No wonder it didn’t win any awards. Such works are often overlooked in their time but gradually gains appreciation and timelessness over time.

Why the best?

1. Best overture of a musical.

2. Best first act finale.

3. Best act 2 finale with Rose’s Turn.

4. The book and lyrics all speak exactly the same language. One of the reasons the book is so good is because the lyrics are so good.

5. The 2nd act takes an entirely new trajectory with the collapse and rise of Louise. Given the countless musicals with 2nd act-Itus, it’s surprising that more musicals haven’t used the dramatic format.

6. It’s one of the only musicals where the literalism of the storyline is matched by the metaphorical storytelling. The combination lends a depth that doesn’t exist in either pure ‘story’ shows or ‘concept’ musicals.

The only thing that would have made the show better is if Rose had served lamb chops to the kids after Little Lamb.

Ana Gasteyer (sp?) would be a great Momma Rose.

I saw the movie version more than decade and I've completely forgotten what happened in the second half.

I'm a misogynist who's repelled by the tawdry display of the female body.

"Gypsy is also an universal yet American story ..."

DL grammar queens - question. I read the above sentence and thought it sounded weird. The normal rule is "a" in front of words that start with consonants and "an" in front of words than start with vowels. But "an universal" sounds weird. "A universal" sounds better even if it's incorrect. And I've heard people use "a universal." I was going to posit that it's simply the n after the u. But "an underling" or "an underdog" sounds fine. Anyone else think it sounds weird or is it just me? Maybe it's because the "u" in universal is "you" and you'd normally have "a" in front of a word starting with "y" - a Youtube video.

Would this be an exception to the general rule?

I was sure South Pacific could never be revived but the Lincoln Center version was a revelation

I loved Patti LuPone’s Rose, because of how subtle an actress she can be.

Soon after that I revisited the Bette Midler version. Wow, scenery chewing like nuts

I know it’s fashionable to knock the Linda Lavin Rose, but when I saw her sing on the Tonys, for the first time I, who had only knew Gypsy from the OBC, finally understood that these songs had melodies.

Merman basically shouts them out

Gypsy’s realism as well as its dark underbelly is sometimes lightened up with comedy. It mirrors real life. Real life has highs and lows encapsulated as comedy and drama. Family as well as people who go in and out of your life but nevertheless influence you in crucial ways. Unexpected turns sometimes shape your trajectory in life. Gypsy has all of these things. It’s a story with multiple layers and lead characters who are not entirely sympathetic. That in itself is a modern concept, the protagonists don’t have to be lovable or one-dimensional. Most importantly the songs fit into the twists and turns perfectly, otherwise we wouldn’t be hailing it as a great musical.

I agree, R45. 'U's which are pronounced as a 'Y' break the rule.

But I get flustered with the Frenchified 'an hotel'.

West Side Story, and A Chorus Line are better.

The only one who accurately nailed the character was Daly, and from the little I've witnessed on youtube of it, Betty Buckley. Never saw Lansbury, but it probably was good as well.

Lupone, subtle? Oh my sides. That performance was pure ham.

Bernadette was lost.

Merman is one note.

Bette was hampered by a bad TV production.

Russell was miscast.

The one who should have played it? Liza Minnelli. She lived the part.

Daly truly navigated the tightrope between full fledged narcissist, and cartoon. It was a dazzling performance. And no, she couldn't sing as good as the others, but the singing comes second in this case. It's the acting that needs to be first rate. Daly made it the chilling experience that it needs to be.

R45 You're correct. "A" is the proper article to use with a "long u". "An" precedes a "short u".

To each his own. I saw the original run of A CHORUS LINE and adored it. But I'd make the case that it has aged more poorly than any of the other musicals on this thread.

Particularly Michael Bennet's staging and choreography, which is the DNA of the show (it's definitely not the book). And the score is fun, energetic, and appropriate.... but it's not Rodgers and Hammerstein.

I saw A Chorus Line at the very end of its run. By then it was old and crusty.

I saw the revival of West Side Story a decade ago (with the guy playing a gay Tony). Meh, the movie was better

[Quote] Bette was hampered by a bad TV production.

Sure blame Bette’s horrendous acting on the production. Whatever makes you feel better

Because Ethel Merman existed. Creators of the show have always gone out of their way to belittle Merman's acting ability. But without her there never would have been a "Gypsy." It was written for her, and she was the inspiration for a musical version of Gypsy's memoir.

And there really was no other big-name musical star who could have carried it on Broadway in the late '50s. The best that the first two national tours could come up with were Mitzi Green and Mary McCarty, and great as they may have been, the show would not have been mounted on Broadway for either of them.

Doesn't Catherine Zeta-Jones deserve a shot at Louise?

It's such a great score that they were able to cut one of the best-known songs for the movie. Fortunately, it's been preserved for posterity by Marcia and Carol Brady.

Smells like mothballs and last nights pinot grigio up in here.

I want to see Lavarious Slaughter's "Gypsy".

I never noticed before the extremely handsome black man sitting next to Alice and sneaking looks at her in the clip at r58.

[quote] Ana Gasteyer (sp?) would be a great Momma Rose.

R30 suggested Kathryn Hahn and I think we've increasinly decided they may be the same person.

Sondheim said Gypsy was written in three months, which is blindingly fast for a musical. The reason being that Laurents and especially Styne knew the language of Vaudeville and burlesque.

[quote]"Gypsy is also an universal yet American story ..."

How come it ain't An Universal Picture?

[quote]It's such a great score that they were able to cut one of the best-known songs for the movie.

Oh dear.

r65, they filmed that scene but they still indeed cut it from the film; so there's no "Oh, dear," except for you.

Sheesh. They really didn't cast anyone who could sing? No wonder they cut the number.

I heard it was included in the original roadshow run (limited run in major cities) but then was cut for wide release.

It's not my favourite musical, but it is very, very good. "Everything's Coming Up Roses" is a fantastic song, and the ending of Act One is actually pretty terrifying in a thrilling way at the same time.

I don't find every track great though, and I think for the greatest musical for me, it has to be strong start to finish.

I don't see who it can compete with CATS.

It's not even worth discussing. Gypsy has a good score. So does My Fair Lady. But the greatest musical and music of all time is West Side Story.

I like Evita

Because we’re all Elektras who think of ourselves as Tulsas.

Hope springs eternal.

OP? Have the last two decades of Datalounge meant NOTHING to you?

Midler was awful in the role which was a surprise to me. On paper, she seemed perfect.

I agree with those who said Daly was probably the best dramatically. She got all the humor, charm, and disturbing aspects of the character. She also felt the most like a real person to me.

The issue with many modern productions of the show is that they forget the first half of the show is musical comedy before it turns into a tragedy in act 2. I've seen a lot of Roses play the tragedy upon their first entrance into the show and it doesn't work. Betty Buckley sang the hell out of the score, but took this approach and it made for a boring evening. She played her as depressed the entire time. A sad sack Rose isn't very interesting.

[quote][R65], they filmed that scene but they still indeed cut it from the film; so there's no "Oh, dear," except for you.

[quote]to cut one of the best-known songs for the movie.

They didn't cut it FOR the movie which means it would not have been filmed. It was filmed, then cut the due to time constraints. The public might not have seen it performed but for the premiere audience, but a large number of people who worked at the studio saw it as it was filmed and after.

Mama Rose is a wonderful character (how many peers in musicals does she have?). The success of the show depends on her and I suppose depending on which one you remember best, it would color your opinion on how good Gypsy is.

[quote] Because we’re all Elektras who think of ourselves as Tulsas.

Elektra! Schwester! Komm' mit uns! Komm' mit uns!

Trivia:

I've always wondered what Ethel would have sounded like singing Wagner or Strauss. Surely she could have sent that clarion tone soaring over a 120 piece orchestra without amplification.

Ethel was a great favorite of Toscanini. Whenever he had a season in New York, he expected his hosts to take him to see her latest show and on opening night if possible. He affectionately called her "Iron Lungs Merman."

R78, that was incredible. Thanks for posting

R50 I agree with the 'a' or 'an' before a word beginning with 'u'.. I also use 'an' before the letter 'h' ---- 'an historic event'

[quote]I've always wondered what Ethel would have sounded like singing Wagner or Strauss.

What the fuck is a Valkyries? Give me Irving Berlin who wrote sensible songs.

This thread has some major unquestioned assumptions There is far from any consensus that Gypsy is the greatest musical, even among people who love the show. It is nowhere near the most frequently revived or produced musical. Few of those productions have been major hits.

What would this mean, anyway? That we only see Gypsy and never Fiddler? That high schools are forced to find a 16 year old Mama Rose who really should be playing Audrey or Ado Annie?

Who's the Audra people at the start of this thread were saying would be a great choice to play Mama Rose? The only Audra I know is Lindley and she's no longer with us.

Oh puhleeze, r51. How did Liza "live the part"?

Liza had the right voice to play Rose. And the right amount of desperate energy, determination and plainness hiding a bright light. She's not a bad actress at all, and a wonderful actress in song. (Bette Midler is NOT) They really should have filmed it with LIZA in the 80s when she could still do it justice.

I say this as someone who doesn't much like Liza Minnelli. Lupone sang the hell out of it, but Liza's voice had many more shades of feeling PLUS all that SHOWBIZ PIZAZZ!

Liza is too much of a hot mama. She's too frenetic for Rose. Be happy with the songs she recorded from the show.

Regardless, r88, ....she didn't "live the part".

How do you like these egg rolls, Mr. Goldstone?

OP, the real reason why Gypsy is called the greatest musical is because some critic said it once and it stuck.

But, why not? If some musical has to called the greatest, then Gypsy is a fine contender. It covers almost every sort of relationship there is - person versus society, parent versus child, romantic love, romantic loss, siblings, business, show business. It has jealousy, betrayal, triumph, hope, angry, sex, happiness, and sorrow. And, it is one of the few, and maybe the first(?) to cover a long span of time.

Plus, and I think this is another big part, it is a musical with strong women. Gay men are the biggest fans of musical theater and gay men enjoy strong women.

And, like others have said, it is timeless. When Gypsy is redone, it doesn’t feel like a stale period piece. It feels refreshing and new.

What other works could take the crown? South Pacific feels too old timey. Sound of Music is too goody two shoes. Company doesn’t have an actual plot. Sweeney Todd is too operatic. Hello Dolly is too one note. Chorus Line is too nitch. Fiddler too Jewish ( I am Jewish, just saying what the public may feel. Little Shop too camp. Phantom too camp. Les Mis is too epic.

And, I think that because the film wasn’t a high success, it helps keep the musical a “musical lovers” musical and thus respectable. If your favorite musical is Sound of Music, Funny Girl, My Fair Lady, Dream Girls, or something like that, musical fans will think you just like the film.

I think Gypsy would probably be even more loved if Sondheim would embrace it. He seems to have almost disowned it (it does get mentions in his memoirs at least) which is odd because it is his greatest work.

A Chorus Line was contemporary when it opened which gave it an immediacy and relevance. Now it's a period piece. Gypsy always was a period piece.

Carol Burnett would have been the greatest Rose of them all!

[quote]I think Gypsy would probably be even more loved if Sondheim would embrace it. He seems to have almost disowned it

Because it's not his alone. He's the same way with West Side Story. You rarely see him criticizing the shows he did both music and lyrics for.

I'm doing the movie version, ya know?

Liza really would have been great in the role. She was approached for the Tyne Daly revival, but felt it would be too much work and turned them down. Oh, what could have been....

[quote]And, it is one of the few, and maybe the first(?) to cover a long span of time.

Certainly not the first. Show Boat starts in the 1880s and ends in the 1920s.

^ And Coward's Bitter Sweet opens in 1920s, flashes back to the 1880s and then ends in the 1920s.

Closing Performance (Live, 1961)

Fiddler is known specifically for *not* being too Jewish, r92. Jerome Robbins harangued the creators over and over on this point, most notably on the multiple attempts at a song for Perchik.

My point was not to argue for a greatest musical, especially against the arbitrary and foolish criteria r92 ticks off. My point was that OP wrongly states that most consider it to be the greatest musical and that is produced and revived more than other contenders.

R101 No, YOU are wrong. Gypsy is famous for being called the Greatest American Musical.

You really think Sweeney Todd is better? You may like it better, but no one calls Sweeney Todd the greatest musical. It is great, but that stupid dentist scene really slows down the play, and Joanna is such a one note character.

Carousel spans about 16-18 years, depending on how old Louise is when she graduates.

And Billy Bigelow didn't put up with no stripping daughter. He smacked the hell out of her when she got out of line. That's why she was able to graduate high school and didn't have to resort to flashing her lady parts for the titillation of men.

Pacific Overtures starts in the 1850s and ends in the present.

Sondheim had a problem with Merman because she nixed him as composer for Gypsy. He had it in his hot hands and she yanked it away saying no this isn't happening. He never forgot. And he never forgave.

And as it happened the stenog from Astoria made the smartest decision in the history of the Broadway musical.

Next to Gypsy, I'd say Sweeney Todd is the next best musical Sondheim had a hand in. It has a very solid script as well. Company is amusing and the score is excellent, but its lead character is a big nothing. Anyone playing Bobby had better have a ton of natural charm, because there's truly nothing on the page to make that character interesting at all. Being Alive, as great a song as it is, always feels totally unearned to me.

Follies is another show with a perfect score and concept, but the script was messy from the start and subsequent revisions only served to make it worse instead of better. The National Theatre production at least had the smarts to go back to the original book instead of tinkering with it once again and making things worse.

Sondheim wanted to quit the show altogether but he sought advice from his mentor Hammerstein. Hammerstein told him to stick with it because he needed the experience of crafting a show for an established star.

Sondheim does seem a little bit more fond of Gypsy than West Side Story. "Rose's Turn" feels like a very Sondheim-type song, which is perfect in some ways. You have this fairly traditional, toe-tapping Broadway score for the majority of the show and then it closes with this bizarre mental breakdown set to music, ushering in a new style of musical where you could explore all kinds of darker and taboo topics.

Even though Natalie Wood was sluttier, I preferred Cynthia Gibb in the Midler version.

I thought Benanti was terrible.

Madonna should play Louise to Streizand's Bubbe Rose.

Only if Next is updated, r104.

[quote]I also use 'an' before the letter 'h' ---- 'an historic event'

You must be Cockney.

Sondheim sure had a lot of balls. Wanting to quit Gypsy. His only Broadway experience was lyrics for West Side Story.

Benanti was one of the best Louises I ever saw. I've never seen anyone else make that final transition from scared little girl to confident stripper. You can tell the moment she realizes she has a gift during her first strip when she throws in that offhand "hello" and the audience laughs and she gets this look on her face like "oh, I'm funny. That's how I can do this. I'll be funny." I found her very moving and funny throughout. I thought she and Boyd Gaines outshined LuPone at just about every turn. LuPone was fine, but she did exactly what you'd expect her to do with that part. It was more novel to see a Louise and Herbie that were a bit more fleshed out.

All this discussion of GYPSY, and not nearly enough credit given to Jule Styne as a composer. Those melodies are for the ages. I think Styne is less revered because his other shows (FUNNY GIRL, BELLS ARE RINGING) are entertaining but not regarded as "the greatest."

I love Sondheim, but while he always excels as a lyricist, he does not deliver as consistently as a composer. His scores are always interesting and unique, but melodic and memorable? Not always. (And a lot of books for his shows are simply not that great, but that's other people.)

[quote]And Billy Bigelow didn't put up with no stripping daughter. He smacked the hell out of her when she got out of line. That's why she was able to graduate high school and didn't have to resort to flashing her lady parts for the titillation of men.

How did he manage that when he died before she was born?

He came back as a ghost and then smacked the hell out of her.

R102, I am not going to engage other than to say that the OP’s claim (“most people would say "Gypsy" is the greatest of Broadway musicals, and it is certainly the one musical that is most frequently revived”) is not proven on the first point and objectively false on the second.

Oh, it’s hard to take you seriously on Sweeney. The dentist scene is only on the recording.

Funny Girl has as good a score as Gypsy with one of the all time great Broadway overtures. Gypsy couldn't last beyond Merman where Funny Girl had legs after Streisand left. The problem with Funny Girl is the book. Girl becomes Broadway star finds love and then loses it. Gypsy has a compelling overall narrative and works on so many levels. Sometimes I wonder who actually wrote Gypsy's book. In comparison Laurents' other work is pretty terrible. Lehmen rewritting WSS's book turned it into a worldwide phenomenon. I don't think WSS on stage was ever a sell out hit. The movie made it legendary.

You could probably get day of performance tickets to Gypsy. Funny Girl not so much.

I've had the same thoughts about Laurents. How can I churn out something like Gypsy and mostly garbage for the rest of his career? No wonder he was so protective of the show - it was all he had. Then again, I've seen it happen many times. Some creators are just "one and done."

Funny Girl has just as great a score as Gypsy, but the issue is that terrible book. I watched the recent London revival recording and wanted to fall asleep after act 1. Act 2 is a total slog to get through. I'm not surprised it's never been revived since. I think it's more than just the ghost of Streisand. Gypsy survived the ghost of Merman because the script and story were more interesting and is more open to various interpretations. The success of Funny Girl was solely due to Streisand and Styne.

Not to derail the thread, but The Contest is no longer done in Sweeney Todd? While I can perhaps agree that it stalls the plot for a few minutes, it's also hilarious. Glad I saw the original cast/production!

Back on topic: I have zero interest in ever doing drag, but I would play Electra in a heartbeat.

A few of Sondheim's cast recordings have songs and moments that were cut during previews. Into the Woods has a few and so does Sweeney Todd and Anyone Can Whistle. There Won't Be Trumpets was cut because Lee Remick did such a great job with the monologue that came right before it that they felt they didn't need it.

The shaving section remains, but the tooth pulling sequence was cut in previews in the original Broadway production, r120.

As highly rated as it is now, "Gypsy" when it opened in 1959 was generally received as a first-rate Merman vehicle with perhaps the star's best role. But only a couple of critics, most notably Walter Kerr, saw the show as truly great.

"'Gypsy' has one of the greatest musical comedy finishes I ever saw...a great beginning, a great middle and a great future....Best damn musical I've seen in years!"---Walter Kerr, Herald-Tribune

And then of course there was that most discerning of critics: "Anyone who doesn't think 'Gypsy' is a fine, funny, satisfying evening in the theatre needs oxygen, a nurse and a pint of blood."---Dorothy Kilgallen, Journal-American

Who's louder, Mazeppa (Faith Dane) or Ethel? SOMETHIN' WRONG WITH STRIPPIN'?

"...to have no talent is not enough..."

How eerily predictive of OnlyFans, TikTok, and Instagram. Talentless Rose would've wind up being on these platforms had she been alive today and mama right there along pushing her.

The one...the only...

R50, “an” before word with French origin that start with “h”— because in French the h is silent when followed by a vowel.

Hotel is pronounced Otel. So, in English an sounds better too

South Pacific is a far superior musical in comparison to Gypsy.

[Quote] Gypsy couldn't last beyond Merman where Funny Girl had legs after Streisand left.

Huh? Um, no

My name's Kyla, what's YOURS?

Gypsy lacks the grandeur and spectacle of a big ALW musical

[Quote] There Won't Be Trumpets was cut because Lee Remick did such a great job with the monologue that came right before it that they felt they didn't need it.

I'm sure Lee Remick's singing voice had nothing to do with the decision.

If you divorced the scores from My Fair Lady and Gypsy you would still have a good play (both adaptations).

This is why they are considered greatest Book Musicals. West Side Story would fall apart if you took away either the songs, book or dance...

I am not sure if the bonafides for South Pacific's book hold up as strong as the others.

Nellie Forbush lacks the multidimensional character in Louise/ Gypsy let alone Rose. In South Pacific the backdrop against which the plot/ book is based, that IS the main plot, not the characters themselves. SP is more about social commentary whereas Gypsy feels more personal, even psychological with its dark undertones always beneath the surface.

They're two completely different stories with different character development. Apples and oranges.

Apples and Oranges. Happy Birthday to one of the Roses! BP!!

[quote] South Pacific is a practically perfect score with the exception of You've Got to be Taught. I know it's the entire point of the musical but it lays the message on with a trowel(Nellie and Emile have already covered this point in dialogue) and it simply is not as good as the rest of the songs in the show. The people who thought it should be cut were right but I guess we're stuck with it.

Mandy Patinkin recorded it in his ridiculously overwrought style when they did the studio album version of it in the late 20th century (back when he was handsome, which is hard to remember). (This is a much milder and acceptable recording of it.)

I once saw a drag queen perform a hilarious dance to the crazy version of it in a club.

Bernadette is no doubt the best actress to play Rose. Though she was wrong for it vocally.

John Kerr acts "You've Got Be Carefully Taught" (while lipsyncing for Bill Lee's nice tenor) so beautifully and honestly that it's my favorite part of the 1958. film.

Even if you don't like it, the song is only a minute and a half long.

Bernadette was my favorite, though many disagree. You saw her he dream slip away from her over the course of the show, and she finally accepted it. That acceptance was painful and disturbing and felt far more real than Patti LuPone literally grasping for the scenery.

Her charm made it really feel like she was born too soon and started too late, which is even more tragic given how hard she worked to overcome obstacles in her way.

[quote]Bernadette is no doubt the best actress to play Rose.

Excuse us?

^ No and Nope. I don't have to see them to know it either. Bernadette is the greatest Musical Theatre Actress there is.

I detested Bernadette as Rose. Kewpie dolls should play Rose

I've seen every Broadway Rose with the exception of the Merm. Angela Lansbury was the best of all. You are free to disagree with me, of course. That's why they're called opinions, Tyne Daly was my second-favorite, followed by Patti. Bernadette Peters, "the greatest Musical Theatre Actress there is," was my least favorite, by far.

We're not all a thousand years old. I've only seen Bernadette and LuPone. Both great, in very different ways. But Gypsy is built around three showtopping numbers that require a certain kind of VOICE. Nothing Tyne Daly or Angela Lansbury can ever do. There's a reason it's not often revived. Lots of Broadway singers are capable to sing the score, but very few have the right voice for it. Streisand would have been wrong for it, at any age. She's an asshole, of course. Belongs on closed circuit TV only.

LuPone was a thrill. This is how you perform it for late night TV. Speed it up and show the fuck off. She's being herself! The fucking band bows down to her.

I respect your opinion R144. Have a nice evening. 🙂

Oh for chrissakes, r145, Angie's voice was perfectly suited for those songs.

No. Not at all. She couldn't sing her way past a pub. Why pretend that she can?

If you can't discern the difference in talent and vocal ability between Patti LuPone and Angela Lansbury, it's time to admit you are musically STUPID.

I only saw LuPone, but we had near front row proscenium for cheap and it was the last preview before opening so I can not assume they changed much. I remember it being well acted for the most part.

[quote]There's a reason it's not often revived.

WHAT? It's probably the most revived musical of the past 75 years.

Judy

Overbearing mother, in love with a guy who we can never have, using success as revenge on those who’ve wronged us.

Gypsy is (most) every gay man’s life. We don’t need to see a musical about it.

Gypsy by Hurrell

Bump it with a trumpet

Miss O'Connor does NOT do *subdued*...

R152 leave out the success for most of us.

John Kerr is wonderful in South Pacific. I can't imagine a more perfect Lt Cable at that period in time. I'm sure R and H had final say in casting.

While one can definitely see Gypsy as a story for the abused, neglected gay boy finally finding his place in the spotlight like Louise does, I've found most gay men are drawn more to Rose, which is a little depressing when you think about it.

Someone once said Arthur Laurents wasn't writing Rose for Ethel Merman, but for himself and he was Rose.

R145, She's amazing in that link