Study suggests a shift towards a 'gay babyboom ' as more than 60% of gay millenials plan to start or expand their family

Wait until people find out how expensive it can be

Ewww. No thanks.

How many of those are gays and lesbians and how many are TQ (i.e. straight people)?

With global warming, wars and a big probability of the brat becoming a heterosexual? No way...

We don't serve alphabet soup here, OP. Just say gay and use sources that do the same.

r3 Admittedly the definition is very broad so it would be interesting see the individual breakdown for all the different letters. I still think there will be a significant increase for gay men but less than this. I could be wrong.

Of the hundreds if not thousands of gay people I've met in my life NONE have ever wanted children.

r7 Perhaps your experience is unusual or atypical?

R7, straight people of breeding age barely seem to want children compared to before. Birthrates are down.

Most younger gay men certainly don't want a screaming baby cramping their style.

r9 But maybe when they reach their late thirties or even older they might?

I don't know any gays who want kids, either. I know one lesbian who came out after leaving her husband and she has kids, but probably wouldn't if she'd come out earlier. These stats are probably all homophobic queers.

[quote] gay millenials

Oh, dear.

[quote] Of the hundreds if not thousands of gay people I've met in my life NONE have ever wanted children.

The ones you’ve met were all fucking in bathroom stalls.

[quote] Wait until people find out how expensive it can be

Can be?

From 2019? I wonder how many of those surveyed can currently afford to maintain their own lifestyles and if their pandemic experience has impacted their desire. I never wanted kids and seeing the experience of people with kids during the past year has only made them more repellant.

This survey combines non-gay communities to ever paint an accurate picture of gay men or gay women.

R13 So THAT was you they were fucking. I knew it. Thousands. Sounds right.

r15 Good questions. I think a lot of people discovered during the pandemic and lockdowns that they ain't as good a parent as they thought themselves to be.

I'm just glad they have the option. I'm still a little shocked society allowed me to adopt 11 years ago. In fact, many agencies I approached at the time said they wouldn't work with us as a gay couple.

It’s fucking exhausting, particularly if you are a corporate gay, you are basically expected (BY THE OTHER CORPORATE GAYS) to have children with your partner.

Well fuck you, we aren’t interested in having kids. Okay?

r19 Are you in the USA and if so what state?

Helllll no. Adopt, maybe - but to bring new humans into this shitty world? I’m not a sadistic person.

All this will create is a bunch of miserable and embittered millennials counting the days until their life ends.

Don't buy the hype. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should or that you need to.

R16 that would explain a lot. Particularly if there are alot of " queer" women responding (ie heterosexual women who wear their hair short and made out with a girl once in college).

The only reason why we didn’t before is because we weren’t allowed to.

What gay wants kids? Please tell me and keep me away from those male fraus please!

I’ve noticed it too. A younger cousin and his partner are having a surrogate. Because “I’ve always wanted to be a farther”. As a Gen Xer my husband and I have NO desire to have children.

Father

R27 so they’re sexually enslaving a woman and trafficking a child.

R29

FF

R29 she’s doing it of her own free will and being paid a lot for it. I don’t necessarily agree with it but it seems like a fair trade.

I’m too old now, but I would have loved to have a couple of babies to raise (who’d be young adults by now). It just wasn’t as common as it is today for single men to have families.

I never intended children in my twenties, and I fully expected that to be the case. I'm half half on my thirties, and I'm in no shape to do it right now (31). My plan is to revisit by around 35 and if I have the means, consider seriously exploring it. My partner, like on some other things, has flipped the other way than me - he started with an appeal for even a biological child, but now comes off like he wants to enjoy the hell out of his remaining thirties before any small potential for children. We're both in the middle enough that its reasonable that x years from now we have a deeper discussion, even if the discussion ends up with: yep, childless. I want no more than 2, and the second I'd have to be dragged into considering before the first happens. I'm a friend of adoption of teenagers, so many are in a shitty place and need a hand up. I just have to be ready for the risk of disaster that also comes with it.

If I'm 35 without kids, cool! If I'm 40 without kids, I think I can live with that. If I'm 50 without kids, I might only curse not having a potential caretaker ;)

Any pressure from others has been rebuffed. If I have kids, its to love them, not to 'have' them.

I see Gen X being the last generation to have a shit load of kids. Lord knows why they decided to pop out a bunch of little monsters. Nobody told them they had to. I guess they just wanted to copy Boomers and now look at them, stuck with these Zoomers who I doubt will take care of them in old age

I don't dislike Pete and Chasten, BUT I do admit their eventual "gayby" will be more nauseating than Andy and Anderson's spawn put together.

And you KNOW they're going to have children.

r25 and because IVF and other fertility treatments and service like sperm banks exist. Technology and science has played a key role.

[R21] I am in rural Indiana.

Generation Goomer

r37 WOW I am shocked that you were able to adopt In Indiana a state that elected Mike Pence and seems very religious.

I am perfectly content being the gay uncle to my siblings' children, and when they become too much of a handful, telling them, "OK, go back to mommy!"

You are far from alone in that I suspect r39

I wonder how much opposition or hostility there is and will be within the gay community to this increasing 'domestication' of gay men and gay culture/ community?

Oh man, reminds me of a twink I worked with here in Romania. Once his new, Bay Area-based office announced work from home he would work 12 hour days in his small studio and felt like he was going nuts from the stress of a new job AND being cooped up at 23. Finally when the firm announced permanent work from home in the fall, he gave up his lease and moved out into the countryside with his divorced sister. Has to just take care of his nephews and the animals (chickens, dogs, pigs). He told me that when he finds the right partner, he is adopting because having to care for the baby while his sister works at the local police station and just being in the country and getting out with chores literally saved his sanity. Stopped needing Xanax and booze to function. Maybe it's the nature and just having a "back to normal" life - nature, countryside, plus his sister is REALLY nice and bought him a trip to the Maldives.

Coming soon to NYS:

R42, but does he want his own kids?

R44 - well he says he does but is open to adopting as well. Obviously, he is young and it may change once things go back to normal and he sees he will be free to go out and about but for now he says he definitely wants to have a home with a child or two, a green space and a partner. Like, a full home.

R20 - I guess women who didn't marry or have kids felt the same as you do. But probably even worse because they are "made to have babies".

[QUOTE] In the report, the committee noted that there are many parallels between the inter-country adoption system and "the more recent commercial surrogacy system". According to the committee, "legislation and supervision are insufficiently regulated, there are financial excesses, and social and political pressure creates a system where the interests of the child is secondary."

Egg "Donation" and Exploitation of Women

These numbers seem waaay off.

Is DTM next?

Nobody cares you stupid cunt R48

Wow...that article at R43 is crazy. To maximize chances of having a child, many customers hire two surrogates. Then, if both pregnancies "take", they make one of the women have an abortion.

The people using women for gestational slavery don't seem to give a fuck that the common risks of pregnancy include death.

Gays who adopt children who are in need of loving homes are good people. I couldn’t do it, but I have huge admiration for those who do. A friend and his husband fostered and adopted a brother and sister a couple of years ago, and they’re a beautiful little family.

Gays who acquire children through surrogacy are selfish fuckers. It’s a reprehensible practice, a conflation of wealth, colonialism, and misogyny, and should be outlawed.

Overpopulation is the principle reason for climate adversity, pollution, population migration, flora and species extinction.

Surrogacy is a social/moral nightmare.

Do the Earth and the people on it a great favor. STOP breeding!!

r54, Cuomo legalized commercial surrogacy in New York State, like those pregnancy farms in India, over the summer, while no one was paying attention.

Boring.

I realized around the time I turned 30 that I wanted to have kids, but my husband wasn't interested.

I'm almost 43 now, and I still think about it from time to time.

Not having kids and all those expenses is the great equalizer of millennials.

It's like joining the military. We are exempt! Do Not fuck with it! Be a guncle. Adopt an orphan!

One of the great things about being gay is not having kids.

Does the Romanian douche have to mention in every post that they are in Romania?

[quote]How many of those are gays and lesbians and how many are TQ (i.e. straight people)?

Probably most of the difference from the previous surveys. Just like there is going to be a huge sudden "inexplicable" rise in the number of "women" who murder and rape whenever that study comes out.

I live in NYC and know of lots of gays who want babies. They fall into two categories for me.

One is the middle class religious desperate to be considered normal gays that want families as a way to hide their gayness. These types always wanted to impress daddy and become one of the popular boys. These types are secret republicans who would only vote for a democrat if it was Buttigieg.

The other type is the high achieving gay. They want babies are an accessory. To show the world, look I made it. I can have anything I want. These types are super promiscuous and will still be doing Molly after their 30s/40s/50s. These types want to impress daddy and become better than one of the popular boys. These types have high paying jobs at JPMorgan yet brag about being AOC fans.

Overall, 100% have come off as dealing with some major self loathing issues and think a baby/family will fix this misery.

I have met great gay parents though. None of them “wanted” it though. Maybe they had a child from a previous marriage, or they naturally found themselves in a situation that led to adoption, or they raised a loved ones child. These types are good parents after all is said and done.

Is the gays that “want” a child that seem to be trying to fill a void.

[bold]Nobody[/bold] is pointing out OP misrepresented the article.

r58 Are you still with your husband? r35 What makes you feel so sure they will have children?

[quote][R58] Are you still with your husband

Yes. Wasn't worth throwing everything away.

The greatest quality you can have for being a good parent is the ability to be selfless. Have you met a lot of truly selfless people in your lifetime? I haven't - quite the opposite. Still, I often observe how families interact when I'm out in the world and nothing brings me more joy than to see a loving, affectionate family. I know I'm observing children that will grow up with a healthy sense of self esteem and will one day themselves be a good parent.

r68 Sounds like you are very confident you made the right decision for your circumstances. I'm pleased for you. 🙂👍

I used to be flattered by a (presumably straight) man cruising me with his kid(s) nearby. Now I can never be sure if the father's not an out gay man.

r71 Times indeed are a changin!

im a straight girl married to a gorgeous bi man. we are pregnant, he fucks me unlike any of my completely straight exes. sometimes we do a threesome with his ex-boyfriend because he still wants a little dick, and then i make the ex fuck me as part of the deal.

Gross

"We are pregnant"

Um, OK.

"He still wants a little dick". Is telling your pregnant partner you're a male hoe and whoring you around the cornerstone of your solid relationship?

R73 types like a man.

a true relationship, you give your significant other things, because thats a partnership.

R77

but i’m a girl, you fucking fag.

It makes sense. They have legal marriage, they're still young, gay parenting is more common. I'm slightly surprised the percentage is that high, but that reflects the ones "planning" - I would assume 60% would not end up being parents, but maybe.

R78 Herpes?

R79, you're still typing like a man. Either a homophobic straight man or a self-loathing gay man.

r82

okay you gay fag

What's a girl doing HERE calling gay men fags? That poor kid is going to want to abort itself.

Why do trolls R83 come here and ruin everything? We prefer to ruin things ourselves, thank you very much.

a GIRL is here, you fags.

Why is this sexual slavery? The women are doing it of their own free will. Women have been being paid to have babies forever probably just like your mother.

i also am a girl living in a three-way relationship with 2 kids. we all fuck each other, but my husband is only allowed to cum in my pussy, our 3rd can cum in my/his ass.

How romantic.

R73 and R88 are the same poster. (And the same poster who keeps retyping the homophobic F-slur). Sloppiest troll ever.

Also, no female over 25 calls herself a "girl" instead of a woman."

Women are human beings, not commodities to be rented for their biological functions. If you don’t understand that, you’re fucking hopeless and a failure as a human being.

you assholes are just jealous because i’m a girl fucking your men. you fucking fags.

R92 = Mother Pence

R93

got to save my baby after the insurrection.

R87 I'm not the original poster that brought up the ethics, but feel compelled to point out the irony of you asking why surrogacy has issues, but then followed up with: " Women have been being paid to have babies forever probably just like your mother." Childbirth was fatal until the 1920s when medicine caught up, but even now we don't have all the answers.

Right there it's the admission of what it is, paying for a human being. This is different than adoption because that child already existed. I take issue with IVF for any couple, gay or straight, and even when it's both parents DNA.

With the wealth gap growing, it's going to be a majority of women that aren't wealthy doing this "job". There's been plently of known exploitation that's come with this process-- more and more laws to break down the rights of birth mothers, while giving the outside party control over pregnancy. Plenty of cases of the outside party then going to areas of the globe that basically farm these women. Complex cases where there's difficulties, and so on.

I'm not trying to shame anyone that's done this, but trying to raise awareness. With outside parties wanting full control, it's also raised the stakes by including not just one woman, but two, because of the demand for no biological link (getting a different egg). Egg harvesting can be detrimental to womens health, without them being told this in a transparent manner. The medications are harsh, thus making women susceptible to side effects. There's an increased % of risks to babies produced from IVF, especially with an outside egg, that we're just starting to learn about. The surrogates are more at risk than usual because regular pregnancies are risky enough with dealing with foreign DNA in the body -- autoimmune diseases, poor reactions to pregnancy, and developmental problems.

Most surrogates working with agencies also have the requirement of having children prior, meaning the risks of pregnancy, like death, are on a woman that will leave her children motherless. The US has the worst maternal mortality rates in the Western world.

Until there's a way to produce babies outside of women's bodies, or we at least fix economic inequality with our healthcare, wages, etc., I can not find moral justification. This is just my personal opinion, everyone is free to disagree and do what they think is right. Again, it's about sharing all the information that rarely comes up with surrogacy and IVF.

r99 Do you have a link please for the study,research or information that shows there is an increased risk of babies produced through IVF especially when outside eggs are used? That is not me so much challenging your opinion but rather trying to source the scientific claim you are making.

Maybe those generation z children can be fooled into having kids, I dunno many millennials buying that crap

[quote] Also, no female over 25 calls herself a "girl" instead of a woman."

r90 You know only one category of older people do this: middle aged MtFs calling themselves girls.

Of course your righteousness completely missed the point of what I was saying R95. Women have been bartered for their capacity to have children throughout human history. Whether it was to produce an heir to the throne or produce farm hands. Or simply the social cachet of having a family. If there are medical problems that's a separate issue. I agree that these people should not be indulging in the narcissistic cesspool of having their own children when there are so many who already exist who need love and care. They get all warm and fuzzy that they're a father and we are supposed to beam oh how nice when they actually should be horsewhipped.

r99 Horsewhipped sounds harsh!!!

Sorry my r96 post should be addressed to r95

Losers

r102 What makes you say that?You disapprove of the trend? If the trend holds it has big implications for gay culture and the gay scene me thinks.

Because the whole point of being gay is to be free. Not to become homogeneous married tools that breed.

A gay male acquaintance of mine had three children—twins and a single—in just over two years via the same surrogate. The way he talked about the process made me uncomfortable; “we transferred three embryos—two took. She delivered and we got her on birth control for a few months, then it was time for another baby...”

He was also rather insensitive and graphic in describing the physical changes this woman underwent after back-to-back pregnancies and vaginal births.

I don’t know if I could ever ask someone to do that for me.

r105 sometimes they offer rather than being asked

r105 I don't think she minded getting paid $10,000 per baby

Call me old-fashioned, but I think children deserve and need a mother.

I'm not interested in this newfangled rush to heteronormativity, and being an uncle is just fine.

Gay couples have as much of a right to starting their own families as straight couples do. If you don’t like or want children that’s totally fine and your prerogative but arguing that gays shouldn’t have kids or be interested in having them is just internalized homophobia.

r108 Are all aspects of heteronormativity problematic or less desirable in your opinion ? What exactly do you mean by heteronormativity and is it still a relevant concept ?

Here in the UK r109 despite some backlash and negative reaction to gay dads , same sex parents receiving IVF etc the actual law now is very accomodating to same sex parents and their ability to access assisted reproduction. Such a shame the picture is much less rosy and more patchy across the USA.

I understand money can be a big motivator, R107, but I don’t think it’s worth it when you consider the impact back-to-back pregnancies have on the body, especially when one of them is with multiples.

As for my acquaintance, if he insisted on having a biological connection to his children, I don’t understand why two wasn’t enough. Ryan Murphy is another aged gay man who just welcomed a third surrogate-born child.

I'm in my 50s and rushing to emulate straight people was just not on my radar and I loved not having to join the masses looking to be a suburban homeowner and parent.

I think younger gay guys today have a ton more pressure to get married and be "examples" of how "gays are normal too". It's all great if you like it, but it was liberating to operate in a community not expected (yes, it is expected now) to do all those straight things.

Please, I promise I'm not suffering from internalized homophobia because I think kids deserve and want a mother. I believe this because of my wonderful relationship with my own mom. My dad was incredible and we were very close, but my nurturing from my mom as a child was different.

May I suggest a dog and a couple of cats instead?

[quote]Please, I promise I'm not suffering from internalized homophobia

Yes, you are.

[quote]because I think kids deserve and want a mother. I believe this because of my wonderful relationship with my own mom.

I had a shitty, toxic mother. There is no way that was superior to two dads who moved heaven and earth to bring a child into the world.

I understand why people are uncomfortable with surrogacy, although I really think you diminish a woman's autonomy if you read the relationship is de facto exploitative. And I know adoption is better for humanity and the planet.

But I'm also enough of an egotist to admit that if my husband had wanted to go down that road, we probably would have found a way to have our biological children.

I've never met any gay men who wanted sprogs either. Surely it was one of the best things about BEING gay. The ones who DO seem wet, feminised, and bourgeois, and determined to emulate, or rather, play-act, a heterosexual paradigm they consciously or subconsciously long for because they were raised to think it the way of RIGHT, and poofism the way of WRONG.

[quote]Surely it was one of the best things about BEING gay. The ones who DO seem wet, feminised, and bourgeois, and determined to emulate, or rather, play-act, a heterosexual paradigm they consciously or subconsciously long for because they were raised to think it the way of RIGHT, and poofism the way of WRONG.

It's always fascinating to me that so many people here want to demonize gay men who want to be in a more "one of those good gays" relationships while also shitting on those who opt not to be monogamous.

Pick a lane.

Sorry if this has been brought up. But aren't younger people more likely to consider having children than those over 55?

r117 Good point

r116 Times seem to be a changin....

Anybody personally know any gay men who have gone down the surrogacy path?

Bump!!

They're nuts.

Why do you feel that r123 ?

R1, amen

If I'd had the money back in my 30s I might have done it; money and a partner.

but...no money, no partner. I'm still in my 50s and I read stories about Clooney and years past Tony Randall or Steve Martin having babies; Alec Baldwin is in his 60s, isnt' he?

I'd do it...but only if I could do it tomorrow. I don't want to be mistaken for the grandfather at my kids' graduation.

I kinda hope there's reincarnation; I'd love a do-over

r125 You have plenty of time yet r125 so stay hopeful!

Have any of your gay friends gone down this route?

R126, you're sweet, but I feel the ship has sailed.

Ultimately, it's unfair to do to a kid.

COVID has taught me a lot.

I really want to get out there and live life, take some chances.

Tony Randall died in 2004 at the age of 75. He had two kids: "Julia, born on April 11, 1997, and Jefferson, born on June 15, 1998."

He left two kids behind under the age of 9! And had he lived he'd have been in his 80s when they got out of high school. Plus, a lot of kids need their parents till a year or two out of college.

I have no gay friends who've gone down the baby route, no. I live in LA so...I hardly have any friends.

awe thank you r127

Is Los Angeles that souless that there is an assumption or even reality that most people do not have friends?

Funny I've noticed the opposite among heterosexuals.

I've stayed in contact with the people who had the same major as me in college. (small school)

There were 28 of us. We are all like 38 or so now. About 6 have had kids. The others (all straight except me and two others) are mostly married yet still childless.

My parents were 39 when I was born and kids at school used to be shocked by that.

r129 This is why I think we are likely heading to a situation in many western countries were an increase in same sex parents gay dads etc will help halt or lessen the decline in the overall birth rate.

R128, it's my belief that there's truth in cliches

I think most people who come to LA are deeply broken; sad childhoods; they think coming to LA will heal their inner child

Most want to be stars, make tones of money, receive love from everyone and they won't have to give any back.

it's sad. All so sad.

r131 Do you mean Los Angeles or more specifically Hollywood or Beverly Hills?

The problem with this survey is that it looks at the entire LGBTQ population, including those in straight relationships. I have a friend from college who's a bisexual woman, monogamous married to a straight man for a decade, and has two kids. Someone like her would be included in this survey.

Not really, R119. R116 made a good point and neither you nor R117 appear to understand it.

Fair point r133 That's why I'd love to know the breakdown statistics for individual categories within this survey.

The reason homosexuality exist is to reduce births that's why there are more gay people lately but if ignore this and breed anyway it's all useless

r136 Surely you are being a little oversimpistic reducing homosexualitys existence down to a single one dimensional reason?

Expect a molestation boom as well

[quote]I don't know any gays who want kids, either.

More than half of the couples I know either have kids already, or want them. It's now become a requirement for gay couples of a certain income bracket to have children. And they spend a fortune of their kids.

I have no desire to ever have children, but I somehow feel left out and it's created some anxiety for me. I am jealous that they will have someone to take care of them as they get older.

I'm happy that things have changed for younger gays, but I can't help but feel resentment that my generation didn't have the option to get married and start families. We had to hide our relationships, even from our families. We had to hide in the shadows and these young people today live their full lives in the bright sunshine. I guess life isn't fair.

I'm calling bullshit on this 'survey' - 77% of gay Millennials either have children or plan to have them? Based on 500 survey responses?

Who selected to be part of these surveys from the Family Equality Council?

Majority of Millennials are finding they can not AFFORD children - straight or gay.

r138 A vile inappropriate and inflammatory comment.

R20 What is a corporate gay?

r143 I'd be interested in a little more detail on that too.

Its amazing how much of an increase in photos and accounts on Instagram on other social media that hashtag as gaydads two dads etc I would never have believed it even 5 years ago.

Gosh r146

[post redacted because independent.co.uk thinks that links to their ridiculous rag are a bad thing. Somebody might want to tell them how the internet works. Or not. We don't really care. They do suck though. Our advice is that you should not click on the link and whatever you do, don't read their truly terrible articles.]

[quote] Majority of Millennials are finding they can not AFFORD children - straight or gay.

It's ok, god always provides. Or in this case, the government.

[quote] I am jealous that they will have someone to take care of them as they get older.

Don't be. Most of them will dump their parents in an old folks home. And the ones who don't, the stress from raising kids will bring on most of their age related illnesses.

[quote] The reason homosexuality exist is to reduce births that's why there are more gay people lately but if ignore this and breed anyway it's all useless

Not just gays, but infertile women. It used to be that a woman reached a certain age, and they can no longer have kids safely. Now they get pumped up with hormones, freeze their eggs and god knows what else. I have an acquaintance who had three kids after 40. That was unheard of in the old days.

R150 is correct. People who have kids so the kids will provide something for the parents (saving their marriage, taking care of them when they are old, for grandchildren) are so fucking selfish, and deserve it when the children they made do not act according to the parental plan. Children should not be brought into this world with a job to do.

I pity those poor gaybies!

r151 I know it is increasing but I think the statistics for women having babies well into their forties especially a number of babies or pregnancies are still quite low.

R136 Homosexuality just exists. There is no higher purpose for us. Either reproduce or don't. We are not sterile.

r155 Certainly not sterile no! I think purpose us the wrong word as it suggests we only exist for one primary reason which is too simplistic apart from anything else.

Bump!

Climate change is a looming existential threat for all humankind. So, there's that. In America:

- Economic inequality is the worst it's ever been, and so far, with (barely) a full Democratic federal government it doesn't look good for any meaningful reform anytime soon. - Hate crimes against many non-white/hetero/cis/Christian/wealthy demographics are on the rise. - Republicans have become so craven in their perceived entitlement to all power that they've dropped the facade and are now committing their democracy-killing chicanery right out in the open.

I'm an optimistic person by nature, but I'm also fact-based. With all this in mind....why the fuck is ANYONE having babies these days? In the direction that things are apparently heading, what the fuck kind of country / planet do you think your children will inherit as adults?!

For fuck's sake people, THINK TWICE about bringing new children into the world right now. If you just can't shake that parental desire, adopt a kid who's already here. 🙄🤦🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️

r158 I feel deflated after reading that!

Sorry R159. Not my intention! This thought does cross my mind, however, when I hear people considering having kids or announcing they're expecting. But hope springs eternal, right? Maybe by some miracle, these things will finally take a turn for the better. I, for one, am glad that being gay has forced any kind of family planning to be a very intentional and deliberate pursuit. No risk of a shotgun pregnancy!

I'm an only child, and there was a time about 12-15 years ago in my 30s when my parents asked me if I'd ever have kids -- they wanted grandkids. It was a rough few years because they would have made such loving grandparents, they deserved that joy, yet I knew it was something I most likely wouldn't be giving them. We lost my mom a few years ago to a very sudden and aggressive cancer. Now, thinking back on that time in my 30s still hurts a bit, though with how things look in the world now it makes me very grateful in the larger sense that I don't have any kids who will come into their own in what might be a world in real decline.

Its ok r160 I totally understand were you are coming from and empathise with the difficult emotional circumstances with your parents i just like to think there's some hope or possibility of good or turning the tide amongst the bleakness. Im very interested to see how this trend of same sex parenting experiencing a boom plays out.

I would be interested to know what the statistics are on surrogacy in countries like the UK and USA. They seem quite hard to find.

R136 got his info off the university of 4chan.

Certainly not a well founded or well researched claim thats for sure r163.

R163 I am not 136 but this is definitely not what people on 4chan say. They usually deny any biological origins of homosexuality. I actually heard 136's argument often among gay people.

r165 No biological origins at all to homosexuality? Not even a component? They sound terrifyingly stupid.