Snake handling churches in Appalachia

Apparently that's what I'm descended from on my mother's father's side. He was brought up in that area and with those snake handlers, but flew the coop when he hit 18. My mother was brought up Methodist. I would have liked to have known more about it, but he died way before I was born.

I am conflicted about your desire to dig deeper. On the one hand it holds a certain morbid fascination. On the other hand you might be unpleasantly surprised about what things you discover about your antecedents in that part of the world.

r2 OP here. I am adopted, but I learned my biological family came from a hollow in Kentucky. Many generations in the same hollow -- back to 1800 or earlier. The family was plagued by incest, alcoholism, mental illness, (probable) sociopathy, religious fanaticism. (My great-great grandmother did teach herself to read as an adult -- she was married at 15 and had 10 kids too.)

All of it seems like such a different world to me.

I should add at r3, the other side of my family was relatively normal by comparison, but still rural (Indiana) and still in a social class that would never have crossed paths with my adopted family.

Oh come on, OP, a lot of us do some snake-handling and speaking in tongues right after our morning coffee.

OP you should know that it's all a trick, a ruse. The church elders keep the serpents in a box in a refrigerator for a certain amount of time before they bring them out to be "handled". This renders the beasts almost comatose. It's simply another religious con to make the flock believe the preachers have some magical power given to them by God, and ultimately to keep the tithes flowing. Where some idiots have made their biggest mistake is continuing to handle the vipers after they've warmed up enough to bite the dumbasses.

R6 that makes sense

I don’t agree that it’s a ruse, r6, although they may do all they can to make the snakes as docile as possible. There was a fascinating chapter in the last Foxfire book about snake-handlers and poison-drinkers, and their sincerity was apparent. And practioners get bitten and poisoned all the time.

I was once in Georgia, visiting Howard Finster's Paradise Garden for "Finster Fest," and on the way I passed by Kingston, home of the snake handling church. I turned off the highway, down to the church. I thought I would go in and check it out, but I started to feel nervous, so I drove around a bit, and then decided I would be better off chickening out, for a number of reasons.

[quote] I don’t agree that it’s a ruse, [R6],

Then there would be no need to put the snakes in a refrigerator to make them docile. Possibly you don't know what the term "ruse" means?

I'd love to handle the big snakes on those sexy and stupid white-trash rough-trade boys of Appalachia.

I get the feeling most of the people participating are true believers

That’s what I meant r12, thank you. “Ruse” implies that some people are trying to put one over on other people. I think they’re all in it together.

I know what "ruse" means, r13, and my point was I think some of the pastors are true believers too.

Well I never in all my life.

One time r15 actually makes sense

I have a friend who grew up going to a Pentecostal church in Louisiana. They didn’t do snakes, but they did roll around on the floor and speak in tongues. She never felt the spirit, but did pretend to and would blather away in gibberish waving her arms. It did sound more fun than the stuffy Anglican mass I went to.

I heard that rattlesnakes hunt rabbits and ground squirrels and other small mammals. Their venom doesn't kill people all that often, especially if medical care is available.

replace "church" with "gay app" and "snake handling" with "meth"

and it's pretty much the same

Right now there are refrigerated trucks crammed full of the bodies of American Christians who insisted on going into crowded places with no masks, saying, "If God decides to call me..." and he did. Same difference really. The idea that faith involves playing chicken with Death is very popular here.

It's not exactly the same, r20

[quote] my point was I think some of the pastors are true believers too.

True believers don't resort to tricks to keep the snakes from biting them. They count on their faith to keep them from biting them.

We can quibble about this all night, r22, and not change the other's view. With everything going on in the world, I'd rather not argue needlessly.

If I were ever going to attend church it would be this type. It looks like fun. Is there one in Manhattan?

Rattlesnakes are venomous but not enough to kill you unless you let it go untreated. And some of them do because they think they can overcome it and prove they're immortal. And in need of a brain.

No, r24. These here churches is only in America!!

I remember being a kid and terrified someone I knew would get bit by a rattlesnake and I'd have to cut an X in their arm and suck out the venom. I just knew I couldn't do that.

[quote] Rattlesnakes are venomous but not enough to kill you unless you let it go untreated.

So clearly they are venomous enough to kill you.

Nothing gets past me. Hook on phonics worked for me!! 😂

It’s funny you mention this OP. I find it fascinating too. I design streetwear style tees. And used snake hanndling as inspiration for two of my tees. Line is called Baptist Training Union. It’s what I call “blasphemy chic.” But used this picture of one of the founders of snake handling. to inspire me.

The other one tee.

Original image

For our brethren outside the US who've never seen such religious insanity, this is the last video of Kentucky pastor Jamie Coots. I don't know if it was during this service or a later one when he was bitten by one of the rattlesnakes he allowed to warm up too much. The bite killed him.

Sorry, I didn't read the full description of the video at YouTube. He was bitten at a service 2 weeks after the video above.

R3 Your family lived in Kentucky and engaged in incest? Well, I never in all my life! How shocking!

The US is a "nation of immigrants", almost everyone is descended from people who came from other continents in the last century or two. So... sometimes I think that a large proportion of the people who left their home countries had genes associated with sociopathy, personality disorders, pathological "lack of empathy", and other non-disabling mental differences. And those people left their homes where people disapproved of them, and went to a place where they were free to be assholes and could teach their children and grandchildren to be assholes, and that's why we have such a huge proportion of people who are okay with slavery, segregation and the KKK, and the modern right-wing lunatic fringe.

But then, I realize that Canada and Australia have similar histories, but don't have the same proportion of mean and crazy assholes.

Let me put a bit of perspective into this because I've visited churches like this.

The idea of snake handling comes from the story of the Apostle Paul. When he is shipwrecked on an island, he builds a fire and a snake comes out and attaches itself to his hand. He shakes it off and it falls into the fire. The residents of the island think he is going to die and when he doesn't, they think that he is a god.

These people demonstrate their faith by handling snakes. HOWEVER, the Bible also says "Do not tempt the Lord your God." So they are wrong in demonstrating their faith by handling snakes. If they truly want to demonstrate faith, they should use it to help someone else. Heal the sick, raise the dead. True Christians call this out for what it really is: It's showmanship masked in religion.

I thought it was from one of the Gospels, r36.

From Mark 16:16-18

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

r37, you are correct. In my dotage, I forgot that passage.

The point is that you don't do these things just to show-off. True Christian leaders have been teaching that during Covid you should wear a mask. The power of God can heal, but you don't purposefully try to get sick just to prove God can heal.

They should remember that other passage in the Bible.

"And God said unto them: I will smite those who doeth stupid things". 😂

Oh, I know, r38.

Interestingly, George Went Hensley, who was illiterate, an alcoholic, and married four times, is largely credited with spreading the practice of snake handling in the US in the early twentieth.

It just seems like a thoroughly American practice to adopt. And it also seems ... very Appalachian, within that American context.

^^ *early twentieth century

I want to read this book now:

Nobody ever produces the play "Dark of the Moon" anymore, but I would love to see a production of that where the church people do some snake handling. And I don't think any mention of it was made in "Whistle Down The Wind."

Are there any plays or movies that really explore the country "backwoods" practices of religion? Maybe I should write one. I've seen plenty.

And the funny think about that passage from Mark is that scholars agree it was tacked on decades after the rest to give the story an ending.

This documentary from 1967 looks like a good way to waste an hour:

Just suck out the poison.

I'm reminded of the old joke...

[quote] Two cowboys are staying a couple miles outside of town on a trail they used for herding cattle. While taking a shit behind a bush, one cowboys gets bitten on the penis by a rattle snake. He alerts his friend, who jumps on his horse and races toward town seeking a cure. He reaches the doctors office and runs inside. The doc explains to him that the only way to save his friend is to suck the poison out. The cowboy jumps back on his horse and races back to his ailing friend. When he reaches his camp, the frantic cowboy cries out "What did the doctor say?" To which his friend replies "He said you're gonna die!

R6 Also, the snakes can be weak from near starvation.

These religious sects who claim to believe everything written in The Bible is true and should be followed are frauds. Just like all religious people, whether they follow The Bible or some other religious text, they pick and choose what they're willing to believe or emulate based on what they're comfortable with.

r49 hypocrisy is inherent in human nature. The religious don't have a monopoly on it.

Salvation on Sand Mountain by Dennis Covington is a fantastic book.

R42 Sorry, I didn't see your post. Salvation on Sand Mountain a great book. I highly recommend it.

Thanks, r52!

One tooth and no brains in the entire lot

Handsome gays only: would you suck the poison out if that 22 year old pastor got bit on his penis by a snake?

I'm sure the lovely snake handling people of Jolo, WV were happy not to have been profiled in this clip. I know this practice is rare, but it always seems they're #1 on the list where these documentaries are concerned. There are tons clips out there on the Jolo snake handling church.

And despite being a native West Virginian, and having been to that part of the state, I've not been to that church (because I'm not an idiot).

Snake handling is repressed homosexuality. Count on it.

"Take up serpents, but don't EVER take a dick!'

I think you're right r37, and what is kind of funny is that is one of the 12 verses tacked on to the Gospel of Mark by some later scribe. The original ended at verse 8, with the women fleeing the tomb and being too afraid to tell anyone about what they saw.

People hated that rather abrupt, weird ending and started inventing their own endings, and what the hell? Why not throw in some shit about handling snakes and drinking poison?

That is fascinating, r59.

I kind of wish I knew more about early Christianity.

Should have added at r3: there were at least two preachers in the family in the early 20th century. One Freewill Baptist, the other Pentecostal. But I don't think he engaged in snake handling

[quote] I kind of wish I knew more about early Christianity.

What do you want to know?

Haha. Well, can you recommend any books r62? My current knowledge is post-1000 (I'm an early modernist).

Walter Bauer's Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianity is a classic. In modern writers, Bart Ehrman is one of my favorites. Crossan was very popular 30 years ago, but is largely (and rightly) dismissed. Trajectories through Early Christianity, edited by Robinson and Koester is good...pretty much anything associated with Robinson or Koester is good. Karen King is an embarrassment; but Elaine Pagels is good reading.

Elaine Pagels? Is she a scholar? I thought she was a popular writer on the Gnostics.

Thank you r64!

Yes, r65. Early Christianity included Gnostic Christianity.

Ok, I looked her up. She teaches at Princeton.

What's interesting to me is how many of these early twentieth century Pentecostal preachers were (I assume?) illiterate.

More coverage

These denominations are among the ones still practicing snake handling; church of god, church of god of prophecy and “holiness“ churches.

I don’t know enough about them to know the difference between the three.

I admit, I am kind of fascinated by denominations that were born in the US.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Pentecostals.

They're all ... a bit odd.

[quote]but Elaine Pagels is good reading.

Her portrayal of Evita was suberb.

Are serpents by definition poisonous? Why can't these fools handle non-poisonous snakes if they really believe they've been called to handle.serpents?

Because the passage with which they justify the behavior implies the snakes should be dangerous r74:

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

R75 thanks. I grew up Carholic and we didnt stray too far from the gospels.

I grew up Catholic too, and while I admit it has its own set of odd beliefs, one way it differs is through its long and rich intellectual history.

Without Catholicism, for example, the West might not have developed the university system, frankly a great boon for humanity.

^and pedophilia.

You're kind of missing my point, r78. I'm discussing the origins of Pentecostalism vs. Catholicism (mostly uneducated preachers in rural Appalachia in a few decades versus hundreds of years of vigorous study and development.)

Here is a fun fact: here is some evidence -- although I think the jury's still out -- that early Christian apologists developed the codex book form (a book with pages that you can open and close and easily locate certain passages -- what we now think of as a book). Prior to this, information was written on scrolls. The apologists needed to find exact Biblical passages (probably in the Old Testament) to justify Christianity, and realized that task was very difficult with a scroll, but easy with the codex.

The codex changed the way humans record and store knowledge. It's had a great impact in the trajectory of human development.

Of course, Christianity generally and Catholicism specifically have committed horrific, atrocious crimes in two millennia. But they also contributed some beneficial things too.

History is rarely -- nay never -- black and white.

r74. I'm with you. Why not just use nice, friendly snakes and have parishioners dance around with fake ones if they want to. It's symbolism, it's not like they are drinking deadly things, as also mentioned. Why is everything about religion so arbitrary all the time?

Give me snake, a bottle of moonshine and some good music and I'm good to go. See you on Sunday.

[quote]This phenomenon is so wild to me. Sometimes it's hard to believe these people live in the same country as me.

Yeah because only the most sane, wholesome things happen in New York or LA or wherever you are, right?

[quote] If I were ever going to attend church it would be this type. It looks like fun. Is there one in Manhattan?

Yes, it's called Saint Thomas Episcopal at 53rd and Fifth Avenue. Go in with a rattlesnake during a service and have a blast!

R71, the difference is the holiness church members have a shoes. The other two don't.

r81 no, it's interesting to me because I would never have any interaction with people like this in my day-to-day life. Hell, I could go my entire life living in the US and never have interaction with them.

See also r3.

I hope the Old Southerners were more grammatical, r83.

R82, the Episcopalians are precisely the ones who would turn it all into symbolism and dance around in a special service with non-poisonous snakes, or better yet, rubber ones. "It's just a myth! It's only symbols anyway!" Whereas these people are real believers and closer probably to some crazy early version's of Christianity (the ones who inserted that verse into Mark.)

I'm Catholic (progressive but still) but I sorta respect the authenticity of the snake handlers over St Thomas Episcopalians. We Catholics have our weird shit rituals too. Like parading around with severed arms of saints or displaying their hearts or tongues.

[quote] no, it's interesting to me because I would never have any interaction with people like this in my day-to-day life. Hell, I could go my entire life living in the US and never have interaction with them.

R84 I get it but my point is you said it's hard to believe these people live in the same country as you. I assumed you meant that wherever you live in this country, you don't encounter people like this. And I'm saying maybe they're not like this, but it doesn't mean they don't do things as weird or strange.

I hope every single one of these freaks gets bitten by one of their rattlesnakes and dies in agony, frothing at the mouth.

Fucking redneck psychotics.

You must admit, r88, this behavior is rather extreme and non-mainstream

we Catholics don’t do this sort of thing.

....

[quote]We Catholics have our weird shit rituals too.

Like when you take Communion, you believe you're actually eating the body of Jesus and drinking the blood of Jesus.

Jesus must have been one huge man for the billions of Catholics to eat on his body all these years.

Glad you mentioned the Welch's Grape Juice, r92. It's so interesting and arbitrary how "literalism" actually works. Snakes, yup, real definite poisonous snakes. It's the Word of Our Lord! Wine? Well, maybe we can use grape juice. I'm sure that's what Jesus meant when he turned that water into grape juice at that wedding that one time.

On the subject of snake bites....

They are abusing snakes and alligators, and other animals.

It's a miracle, R92.

Nuff said.

r64 I just picked up a copy of Bert Ehrman's The Triumph of Christianity. Thanks again!