Bill Maher and his conservative black guest today

Every show is just better with a black minstrel

So per usual, he'll bring on repugnant Trump trash, but too much of a coward to bring on real progressives to challenge his bullshit. Scared bitch.

The black guy spouts these “pie in the sky” wishes to improve America

Sure, that sounds great: “End poverty” “Stop police brutality.”

Guess what? We’ve heard those for generations without any change whatsoever.

Maybe a little protesting by blacks to shock us all is e a you why we needed.

Oh yeah, blacks and whites face the same problems.

Sure,

Is that why there was an insurrection by white people to turn over an election and tons of minority votes?

I thought that African Americans are being denied testing, treatment and hospitalized care. AA are also under-treated for other medical conditions. That guy is a sociopath and a pathologic liar.

I think we need to commission a study to look at who has a medical doctor (PCP) and/or Medical specialist that they have on-going treatment with. Many Americans are not receiving medical care on a on-going basis and many people have medical conditions that requires this level of medical care.

R5, the guy says blacks shouldn’t get access to the vaccine first because it’s really about the circumstances the blacks face (working as essential workers and living in crowded situations).

Sure that’s true, but you’re not going to suddenly fix those circumstances in a year and race becomes a proxy for those circumstances

I think it is a GREAT thing that health insurance companies were warned not to discriminate during the covid pandemic. They need to REACH ALL for vaccination. These private insurance companies are complete shit. Really fucked up psycho work there.

That guy is lying.

The guy basically said “Just don’t talk about race at all because it just divides us.”

Um, we’re divided already. Much of it is because many whites see their power going away to minorities

As soon as he said he was a Libertarian I was done listening to him. They think they are above it all because they don't identify Republican or Democrat, but guess which way they always lean.

R9

Libertarians... I've found them especially bizarre in in-person interactions. My reaction is always, "Ohhhkaayy... time to come up with an excuse to get out of this social situation as quickly as possible..." They always strike me as like animated shells of human beings or pod people.

Bigotry and racism sadly exist in the US.

What should help is the push for human rights groups being able to replace the racist and bigoted people, who were put in positions of power to maintain and protect the country's bigotry and racism.

The complete ignorance, racism and bigotry of those who truly believe that racism and bigotry are restricted to a particular race or ethnicity. See this thread for examples.

And. Here’s the scary thing- Trump would’ve gotten away with erasing large swaths of black votes if Covid hadn’t happened.

r13, don't let the GOP off the hook.

The guy was very, very well spoken. I can absolutely understand why he has a following. But his words, though beautifully said, were nothing but hot air.

I'm tired of bitching that Bill Maher is obviously yet still somehow deniably fans the flames of the alt-right, of racists, of Nazis and Trumpsters. And yet I can't stop bitching about it because HBO will not cut off his lifeline.

He's an old man who is totally out of touch with progressivism. Some of the characteristics he hates most about Trump are reflections of his own ego and narcissism.

If HBO were to fire him and he could only get offers from Fox News or OAN or Newsmax or RT, he would be on them in a heartbeat saying that since weed has gone mainstream and is accepted by Republicans as a capitalist enterprise, he has little left in common with liberals and found his family among conservatives.

[quote] The guy was very, very well spoken. I can absolutely understand why he has a following. But his words, though beautifully said, were nothing but hot air.

At some point we have to admit that it's ok to dismiss people if their opinions don't matter to us. Guys like Maher always insist that we simply must LISTEN to every single fucking right wing pundit or Deplorable rambling, because we don't want to be like *those* people who live in a bubble, do we?

Support what you believe is worth supporting. You think, at this point, Ann Coulter or Tucker Carlson will provide some serious, eye -opening contribution that makes you agree with their conservative side? Time's way too precious to find out if these guys make more sense now.

Who the fuck is still watching Bill Maher in 2021???? lol

Maher gives his platform to people with extreme ideas.

If their words turn out to relate to reality later, then he takes credit for having put that information out into the world.

If their words turn out to be scorned later, then he says "sunlight is the best disinfectant" and he takes credit for having put that information out into the world to be destroyed.

His MO became clear with Milo Yiannopoulos. That did it for me. He brought Milo on. He flirted with him and his dangerous idea. He presented him as a harmless imp, confounded by the makeup and the pearls. After the interview, he told Entertainment Weekly that he found Milo reasonable and said he hopes he will come back on. Mere weeks later, Milo's whole world had collapsed and Maher tried to claim credit for it by having had Milo on his show, as if he was responsible for putting the spotlight on him that disinfected him.

It was as much a lie and as much revisionist history as anything Trump has said.

The good ol' "I meant to do that!" claiming credit or face-saving pivot.

R19

That Milo Y. interview was peak cringe.

It actually physically repulsed me to watch.

He also has that Andrew Sullivan homocon brit on a lot over the years. Completely vapid and intellectually disingenuous; he's always staking out his positions wherever they are as conservative as he can get away with while simultaneously being able to claim to be a 'moderate independent thinker'. In actuality, the few genuine values he holds just boil down to 'I'm an elitist prick who believes that self-interest is the noblest human quality'. He doesn't know about or even care about shit like climate change or gun control. He always transparently just takes the safest conservative position on things he doesn't give a damn about and pretends to be speaking from a place of insightful wisdom.

In my experience, these days, even liberal straight men of Bill's age are almost always awkward to the point of cringe when interacting with gay men. Like they understand that the rules have changed, but they're not exactly sure how. The balance that they try to strike in their social interactions comes off as trying way to hard.

This guy lost me when he commented how sleepy Joe Biden Mister Magoo’d himself into the White House as one of the most disliked people on the planet.

I gave up on Bill Maher long ago because he's annoying and not funny, so don't know who this nameless black conservative was and won't seek it out.

But black people can be conservative, and you'll find plenty who espouse ideas similar to what OP quoted and which fall outside current white progressive dogma.

[quote]The guy was very, very well spoken. I can absolutely understand why he has a following.

He has a following because white supremacists can point to him as their "black friend" and he's never really challenged on his bullshit. Every fucking libertarian from Curt Schilling to Rand Paul to Paul Ryan have ALL depended on socialism - even more so than the general public. It is beyond preposterous when they claim that they are one. It's like someone claiming to be vegan while chewing a steak.

Arrest and prosecute the arsonists and looters in Portland and this man will go away.....simple.

Before Trump imploded the November election was actually good for Republicans, They expanded their support among black and Hispanic males. We’ll see if that continues in 2022.

BULL. SHIT, R25. How stupid are you to even write that? Republicans who egged on the insurrection with their years of enabling Trump are not only unashamed of being parasites, they thrive on it. They are trying to blame Pelosi for the lack of security that day rather than a fucking second to be introspective. Republicans have not a shred of decency, so STFU.

He's a fucking black libertarian who minimizes how prevalent racism is and effects the African American communities.

He's a unicorn in that world, so he'll make money off of being this repugnant.

R1 is always excited when he finds a black person who disagrees with him, cause then he gets to use racist slurs guilt-free.

R22, exactly. People voted in based on a number of reasons, including the circumstances at the time. The same thing happened when Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton, Bush 2, Obama, Trump—the circumstances at the time got them elected.

I don’t mind if Bill Maher brings in radicals; I mind that this black guy got away with saying nonsense solely because he was black.

The white people at the table were too afraid to challenge him because they would look racist. They kept saying that because he’s black he must know what black people are feeling.

R30, he's sitting there defending a man who would never wants him being his accountant, nor living in his buildings and certainly no where near his daughter.

He slurs himself with his defense of obvious white supremacists who don't want black people's vote to count as EQUAL to white votes.

I hate it when minorities don't follow our rules.

I disagree with almost everything the conservative black guest said.

But there's some degree of truth that policies for the poor cannot aim only at one group of poor people. They can use different approaches to better serve white and black poor folks, but it;s best when those kind of policies have to be "rising waters lift all boats" for lots of reasons.

I knew a guy like that. He moved to a different city and over the course of one month was involved with the police 11 times.

At first, they were doing their jobs.

Then they were being cautious.

Then they were mistaken.

Then they were being abusive.

Then they were fascists targeting him for being an educated well dressed black man.

The day Bill Maher is called too conservative just makes me glad I stepped off the progressive train long ago.

I think the problem with systemic racism is that the solutions being proposed don't work and would be a burden on every American. I think it's important we shift the discussion to class at a time when there is greater income inequality and greater monopolies than any time in our history. Perhaps we can continue to tackle institutional racism where it exists in a way that doesn't presume than an entire race is evil or that America is foundationally racist. Is that really so much to ask?

Who is the guy? Did no one look up his name because he is Black?

R23, everyone. Knows that since slavery there has always been black folk that believe and parrot whatever some white person told them was right even if it means the continued suffering of black people. I am sure white liberals are well aware of Clarence Thomas, Ben Carson, Candace Owens and others like them.

It was Kmele Foster, R39.

I don't watch the show but people on Twitter seem to be saying Peter Hamby objected to some of what Foster said, it wasn't a case of "white people agreeing with him because he's black" like people up thread have claimed.

Coleman Hughes, who is center/left and votes Democratic, says a lot of these same things, and he makes a lot of sense.

For those who don’t agree, what does the continued emphasis on race in daily American life/media achieve, exactly? Where in the ‘systems’ is the racism, and how can it be eradicated? Are we talking about the criminal justice system? The workplace? Apartment rentals?

[quote]I don’t mind if Bill Maher brings in radicals; I mind that this black guy got away with saying nonsense solely because he was black.

I actually think Bill brings on black guests like Foster solely as mouthpieces for his own private views about certain racial issues that he knows wouldn't sound very good coming out of a white guy (and a rich entitled white guy at that). It's like he specifically directs the show's bookers to scour the Internet for black conservatives to invite on and give voice to all of his "non-woke" opinions on issues such as BLM while simultaneously absolving him of any guilt he might harbor as a liberal for having those feelings (i.e., "see, this black person thinks like I do, so it's not racist"). Just a few months ago, he had on the even more repulsive Coleman Hughes, who was worse than Foster.

What was this guy's name? Is it Kmele Foster?

I'm sure there are plenty of affirmative action items he has benefitted from in his lifetime.

There are always minorities - look at Gay Republicans - who think that they are different than their brethren, all the while sucking up to anyone that will get them further ahead in life.

[quote]Coleman Hughes, who is center/left and votes Democratic

Sorry but I do not for a second believe Coleman Hughes votes Democratic.

I'm black and for a long time I believed that racism was a crutch and that it wasn't as bad as some made it out to be. You work hard, you play by the rules and you have just as much a chance as everyone else.

Let's just say that my opinion has changed, as I've watched white people over the last 16 years of my life lose their ever-loving fucking minds. As I've watched white people, who clearly weren't qualified for anything land in positions of power through connections, family name, and favors, just fuck up a lot of shit.

[quote] I actually think Bill brings on black guests like Foster solely as mouthpieces for his own private views about certain racial issues that he knows wouldn't sound very good coming out of a white guy (and a rich entitled white guy at that)

It doesn't matter no matter how much a white person virtue signals because their views will never be accepted as truth. The whole point is that systemic racism can never be taught and can only be learned through lived experience. These are the lessons being taught in colleges and universities by professors with cushy jobs that are in no danger of living with the consequences of what they preach. They will never be accepted by the mainstream or by African Americans as long as they are white.

You can have hundreds of thousands of workers lose their jobs because of new energy policies and their concerns will be dismissed as racism. You don't even need an argument to disempower millions of Americans based on their skin color. If the majority of Latinos voted for Republicans, as do many Cuban Americans do currently, their concerns would be just as easily dismissed. The liberal position would be we don't want them in our country.

The elite in Washington don't give a shit about systemic racism as much as they do retaining their power. They will tow the line with their anti racist rhetoric (which is incredibly divisive) because it helps them personally.

[quote]Arrest and prosecute the arsonists and looters in Portland

To be fair, some of the protestors in Portland were arrested, and they looked exactly as you'd expect them to look:

I used to like BM but he now seems like a tired old crank, constantly mansplaining and spouting his conservative views, completely oblivious that he has white privilege and is a sexist pig. He insults his guests and doesn’t really allow for opinions he doesn’t like.

His last show was called Politically Incorrect. I don’t know if you’re aware of that.

I’m aware - he is no longer funny or enlightening

Why do you guys keep watching this show? Every week it's the same posts. I hate Bill Maher. His show is awful. His guests suck. Isn't there anything else on TV?

[quote]If HBO were to fire him and he could only get offers from Fox News or OAN or Newsmax or RT, he would be on them in a heartbeat saying that since weed has gone mainstream and is accepted by Republicans as a capitalist enterprise, he has little left in common with liberals and found his family among conservatives.

Yeah, I've felt for a while now that he's a closet right-winger just champing at the bit to come out.

R25, how would arresting and prosecuting the Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers, and the 3%'ers make this guy go away?

[quote] I used to like BM but he now seems like a tired old crank, constantly mansplaining and spouting his conservative views, completely oblivious that he has white privilege and is a sexist pig. He insults his guests and doesn’t really allow for opinions he doesn’t like.

What are you talking about? He's always been like that.

R32...Just like Kendi, Dyson, Coates & Nikole Hannah Jones get to speak for all black people without any pushback or challenge? They've become millionaires selling unchallenged supposition to the white masses. I'd say that that caliber of influence & platform contradicts their claims of the degrees of racism they peddle. The blind support for these people is proof of one thing, that racism is a commodity that's gleefully scooped up by people just like most of you on this board. Just like a new pair of comfy pajamas your support of anything anti racist makes you feel nothing more than cozy. Also, these peddlers are ferociously defensive of anyone who may offer any opposition. There simply is no tolerance for anything that'll mess with the marketplace. Just ignorant & sad.

Bill has always been an asshole, now he is a gigantic asshole. I am surprised he can book any guests after insulting and interrupting then.

R45...Sorry, but after that comment I don't think you've ever listened to Hughes before. He is a brilliant young man with a practical & progressive mind. His politics are very much in line with those of the Democratic Party. Dismissing him for having differing solutions for what so many of his peers simply bitch about is dismissive of wanting any solution at all.

I enjoyed the show and appreciate Maher. Plus,Maher was 100% right sounding the alarm for a Trump coup which I thought was just hysteria. Thank God for someone who doesn’t tow the PC line 24/7.

For an old-time lefty like me, the class-based arguments of people like Kmele Foster (thanks to whomever for finally identifying him) make more sense than the systemic racism arguments which have gone mainstream since George Floyd's murder.

As witnessed here, white folks love to cast aspersions on black people who don't fall into line while feeling good about themselves for being so socially-minded. Meanwhile vastly more black people die as a result of gun violence in their neighborhoods than during police encounters.

[quote]Thank God for someone who doesn’t tow the PC line 24/7.

Sweetie? No one expects him to tow the "pc" line, Here's the thing people like you never seem to notice: He will bring on the far-right, gives a platform to Bannon and Coulter and Milo and others, but not the far-left.

How do you not notice he doesn't have the guts to bring on progressives to get called out? You're too dumb to notice he isn't brave in the least. he's a fucking coward

Maybe it's because the far left, except Michael Moore, isn't really all that interesting. You get the far left on and all they're talking about is sexual violence, corporations, billionaires, and the lack of free stuff. No one wants to watch that, not even most democrats. Most democrats want to watch something that is going to make them go to a message board and start a post about how pissed off they are about the right wing person they saw on Maher. Plus the far left doesn't know how to put on a show, they are so freaking earnest.

What do the protesters in Seattle and Portland want? Do they even know? Move to Cuba commie scum.

TBH, both guests on last night episode were assholes. They were one of the worst panels Bill ever had on his show.

The white guy, think he's a writer for Vanity Fair, was even more annoying than the Black guy. The white guy was so smug. His face was also annoying! Most of the nonsense he was spewing, you could see he was just trying to appease the black guy.

The funny thing is this black conservative guy is the recipient of all sorts of affirmative action. The only reason he was on that show is because he's black.

R66...Just like the leftist handbook indicates: Antiracist thought prevents any blacks from achieving anything based on merit or original thought. It all has to be given to blacks just for being black. Isn't that supposed to be infuriating? It fucking should be. Instead it's considered acceptable & sustainable equity.

btw, the left doesn't want "free stuff", that's all people get out of the left being so angry? I will say, it's a joke when most of the younger people on the left , the ones who grew up in comfortable upper middle class households, they are the ones who seem to rant the loudest. The seem to need something to complain about. Most haven't had any struggles.

Most people on the left are simply tired of being the working poor and the middle class, they're hard working being honest people who have paid their taxes, yet get little for their tax dollars.

For example, people pay for their health insurance, yet it sure doesn't cover everything. Welfare recipients are basically covered for everything, well, not plastic surgery, but pretty much everything is covered, even dental work. If you tell me, I don't know what I'm talking about, I do. I know several people on Medicaid, it covers everything. A friend had cancer surgery, he's still alive thanks to Medicaid.

The wealthy sure don't pay their fair share, while others continue on welfare programs from generation to generation. It's that simple, people are fed up.

After the first 2 or 3 kids, these people who are on constant welfare, do need to be cut off. It is as simple as that. What's the incentive to get off welfare if you know you can keep receiving it forever?

A few years ago, after surgery, my mom had a home aide for a month, this woman had 8 kids! The woman worked part-time for the home aide agency, she was was on Medicaid. Her husband, who had a job, was the father of one of her children, he didn't live with her because if he did, her rent in public housing would be more! This woman practically bragged about all this to my mom..

I'm sure many people have similar stories about Medicaid recipients. I don't mind people who have worked their entire lives and need to be on a social service program, we all need some kind of help at least once in our lives. However, the people who have been on these programs their entire lives, from generation to generation and have no incentive to get off them, that's just ridiculous. Any hard working person would be pissed off.

The first guest, a former FBI guy, he's always on MSNBC, I forgot his name, made a great point. He called the lunatics who invaded the capitol and the QAnon mental cases, America's version of the jihad tourists.

These people are essentially home grown terrorists with similar grievances to the jihad terrorists.

And R68 proves my point as to why no one wants to watch the far left on a TV show.

^ zzzzzzzzzz

The reason the so-called far left isn't allowed to join such discussions is because of the fear that the Liberal audience will favor them over whatever the right wing conservatives or Maher himself are peddling.

Nothing to do with the right wing extremists being "more entertaining". Maher is too scared to give actual progressives a platform on his show.

[quote] Most people on the left are simply tired of being the working poor and the middle class, they're hard working being honest people who have paid their taxes, yet get little for their tax dollars.

This is not true about the left today. Today's left is about increasing the wealth and power of technocrats and consolidating power. I am a classical liberal and did not vote for Biden.

Consolidating power for the revolution? Sounds the same as Trump patriots.

R63, nonsense. Maher has spent years attacking policies he has perceived as "far left" without ever actually having that debate with the very people he attacks, Yet he manages to bring on that insufferable Bari Weiss every five minutes to complain about the left and because we simply must know how what happened at the Capitol is about Israel.

Accept that Maher is in fact a coward. No one needs to hear from people like Bannon or Milo, yet Maher brought them on and looked stupid in both cases.

[quote]These people are essentially home grown terrorists with similar grievances to the jihad terrorists.

Then he's a fucking idiot. You're referring to that Frank Fugazzi (or however it's spelled). The grievances of the white terrorists are hyperbolic bullshit based in conspiracies supremacy and entitlement. They do not believe in democracy. Most of the Jihad terrorists are based in decades of foreign policy where their god damned countries are blown to smithereens. Do people just assume you get over watching your country literally get invaded by foreign forces who kill family/friends?

[Quote] This is not true about the left today. Today's left is about increasing the wealth and power of technocrats and consolidating power. I am a classical liberal and did not vote for Biden.

Did you feel Trump would get you whatever your “classical liberal” heart desires?

[Quote] What's the incentive to get off welfare if you know you can keep receiving it forever?

Welfare can mean many things. If you mean gov payments because someone is poor, welfare can only last 6 years during a lifetime.

Medicaid can last a lifetime and why not if you don’t mandate that every job, even minimum wage jobs, come with healthcare?

[quote] For an old-time lefty like me, the class-based arguments of people like Kmele Foster (thanks to whomever for finally identifying him) make more sense than the systemic racism arguments which have gone mainstream since George Floyd's murder.

[quote]As witnessed here, white folks love to cast aspersions on black people who don't fall into line while feeling good about themselves for being so socially-minded. Meanwhile vastly more black people die as a result of gun violence in their neighborhoods than during police encounters.

Co-sign all the above. The renewed obsession with race, thanks to things like the popularity of DiAngelo’s execrable ‘White Fragility’ and the murder of George Floyd, is yet another moral panic (like the Satanic panic) that’s making people see evil and racism where there is none, which will not solve any problems and only exacerbate them.

Black people are not killed by cops at higher rates than whites. They just aren’t. The murder of GF was horrifying and sad, but how does Amazon and HBO prominently featuring “Black Voices” in their On Demand video categories help stop police killing black people? How do you solve a problem that doesn’t exist?

If blacks are given more executive roles at companies, will that help get black trans prostitutes off the streets and stop the epidemic of violent hate crimes perpetrated against them?

If Bill Maher stops having black conservatives on how show, will that prevent militia groups and Proud Boys from doing another storming of the Capitol?

Listen to people like Glenn Loury, Coleman Hughes, Sam Harris, and John McWhorter. These guys aren’t right-wing. They talk about statistics, the actual issues, the forces behind them, and how the current moral panic isn’t going to change these things. Most people who are caught up in the panic are only looking at these issues in the most superficial light and are satisfied with things like affirmative action, corporate appeasement, cancel culture, etc.

It is not going to solve the problem. Don’t believe me? Wait another 5, 10 years. You’ll see.

[quote]Maher has spent years attacking policies he has perceived as "far left" without ever actually having that debate with the very people he attacks

I wouldn't bring them on my show either. Because there is nothing fun about debating with them. At least with the right you know they're either crackpots or hypocrites and you could be amused by their stupidity. The far left is humorless and zero fun and they take themselves way too seriously. There is nothing fun, as a democrat, about highlighting the most absurd people in your party unless they are in on the joke, which the vast majority of the time, they are not.

The “far left” just wants to give Americans what Europe has given to its citizens for decades now.

There’s nothing particularly far about the far left

[Quote] Black people are not killed by cops at higher rates than whites. They just aren’t.

The people criticizing the huge BLM protests after George Floyd’s death are missing the point. It because a flashpoint to protest all the racism that blacks deal with, not just from the police.

There is deep racism in the justice and penal systems, that is indisputable. George Floyd’s death was a racist act from a well known racist cop. It’s just one act of such public racism that broke the camel’s back.

Of course the black guy on Bull Maher said “There’s no such thing as systemic racism and saying so only divides us.”

What an asshole

[Quote] The renewed obsession with race, thanks to things like the popularity of DiAngelo’s execrable ‘White Fragility’

You call it “execrable” solely because you don’t think racism exists. White Fragility spells out quite clearly how white remaining racist benefits them

The dude was stuck on COVID not being a race issue. Duh, dumbass. Black folks aren’t more vulnerable to COVID. However, due to systemic racism, poverty, and a lack of access to medical care, COVID becomes more of an issue for that particular demographic. Same with the Hispanic community. Obtusely denying these realities is an inverted form of racism.

[quote] To be fair, some of the protestors in Portland were arrested, and they looked exactly as you'd expect them to look:

shhhhhh. Datalounge wants to pretend those new riots didn't happen. The thread was closed within a couple hours.

R84 If that is racist, then what do you call failure to stop drug and human trafficking and drug ODs that affect mainly rural areas? I call that just plain evil.

R68, in Georgia Medicaid does not cover dental care for adults. The reason a "single" mother receives Medicaid is because the government wants her to healthy enough to raise her children. It is cheaper to provide Medicaid than to foster them if she becomes sick and dies. Also that Aide that cares for your mother is to be pitied that she has to result to living in public housing (a horrible place to live) without her husband to survive.

This guest is one of those people who love to hear themselves speak, but they don't EVER say ANYTHING new or something you haven't heard A THOUSAND TIMES before. They can not experience an original thought. These people are like a walking blank tape that you have to que up with pre-scripted drivel for them to be able so speak. Ana Navarro is another one of these people.

This is a black Ben Shaparo wannabe. "Oh look at me, I am so wise and intellectual but just a down to earth, one of the guys" faux-modest bullshit. These people are all poser trash and survive solely on the gullibility of the most pathetic fools among us.

Where were all these people 5 years ago? Now everybody is a political expert because they know the word Marxist? And they drop these words and then sort of pause like everyone is supposed to be blown away by their vocabulary.

It makes me cringe to hear these people recite poly sci 101 buzzwords and think they are the next great political mind. The arrogance of it all.

[quote] DiAngelo’s execrable ‘White Fragility’ . . . You call it “execrable” solely because you don’t think racism exists. White Fragility spells out quite clearly how white remaining racist benefits them

DiAngelo is describing herself in the book and she is/was racist. That much seems clear. She assumes that all whites feel as she did. That is pure ignorance and arrogance. She is wrong. She is also making a bundle with her nonsense of pandering to simplistic minds.

R76 ugh no he’s not - it’s very obvious that Maher is just a liberal of the old school (or baby boomer school) that finds the v2 “progressive” version tiresome. And frankly so do I and I’m more than 20 years younger.

R89 "Now everybody is a political expert because they know the word Marxist? And they drop these words and then sort of pause like everyone is supposed to be blown away by their vocabulary. "

It's truly obnoxious. If an average, even mediocre historian or social scientist was on that panel, they would have called that out almost immediately and said, "Oh, BLM is full of Marxists? It's full of people ascribing to Karl Marx's critiques of industrial, national capitalist economies? Even though they were born into an information-service, globalized capitalist economy? There are dozens of varieties of contemporary Marxist schools of thought and they bear little resemblance to orthodox Marxism because orthodox Marxism is firmly conceptually entrenched in industrial era economic dynamics. Saying "Marxist" implies little more than a focus on power, inequality, and exploitation. Are you opposed to addressing those things?"

That Uncle Tom couldn't pass a multiple choice pop quiz on the basic concepts of Marxist theory like 'use value' and 'exchange value' even its original recipe form to save his own life. His ilk just toss it out there as a substitute for 'anti-capitalist' because it conjures up vague notions of authoritarian communism in their minds.

The internet has created this pseudo-intellectuals by the dozen because they read Wikipedia and think they are on the same level as someone who attended a rigorous university and has an advanced degree.

So cringe.

[quote]The “far left” just wants to give Americans what Europe has given to its citizens for decades now.

And there in lies the problem. Europe is not this perfect fairyland where all is good and right. America is not Europe. And most Americans do not want to be Europe.

[quote] And most Americans do not want to be Europe.

What's the old saying?

Europeans work to live.

Americans live to work.

[quote][R68], in Georgia Medicaid does not cover dental care for adults. The reason a "single" mother receives Medicaid is because the government wants her to healthy enough to raise her children. It is cheaper to provide Medicaid than to foster them if she becomes sick and dies. Also that Aide that cares for your mother is to be pitied that she has to result to living in public housing (a horrible place to live) without her husband to survive.

I live in NYC, you would not believe what Medicaid now covers. I have several friends they work, yet now have Medicaid for their health care. Medicaid is now the gold standard, if anyone tells you otherwise, they are either lying or don't live in NY state. Medicaid is now paired with other insurance plans. That way, the recipient gets even better care.

The ReThugs have lied about Medicaid for way too long: "You get card, but when you go to a clinic, no one helps you." That's a total lie. Medicaid recipients can see any doctor who accepts their coverage, their combined coverage pretty much guarantees they will be helped.

Of course, re Medicaid dental coverage, you cannot go to a dentist, then ask for eight top caps because you teeth look like crap, yet Medicaid will cover a tooth which is visible and needs a root canal, which Medicaid will OK to be capped.

Years ago, Medicaid would actually tell a recipient they must have any viable teeth near the 'bad' tooth which needed to be extracted, also removed, then the dentist would create a bridge. Either a removable bridge or permanent one.

Medicaid never covered bonding, just metal fillings, exams and X-rays and the aforementioned, bridges. That's no longer the case. Medicaid dental now covers bonding and basically everything but cosmetic dentistry. Medicaid will also cover root canals on any visible teeth. Basically, Medicaid now covers more than a health plan people get through their jobs or by paying out of pocket.

R87, I won't even get into the argument that a woman with 10 kids receives Medicaid "because the government wants her healthy enough to raise her children." Healthy? Have you seen some people on Medicaid? Many are obese, they smoke, they drink alcohol and basically could give a shit about their health. Give me a break.

If you cannot afford 10 kids, WTF are you having them? I'm a Liberal, yet I think there must be a line drawn for people who are on Medicaid from generation to generation, especially those who expect it.

The home aide did tell my mom she grew up on welfare and her mother also had many children. The home aide has a working husband, she simply doesn't put him down as living with her, that way, her Medicaid subsidy is larger. Her rent would be larger if she reports her husband lives with her and has good job, he's a plumber. If the aide reported a working husband lived with her, she would not receive as much in her monthly stipends.

Who said the husband wasn't helping with her bills? I didn't post that. Here's EXACTLY what I posted: "Her husband, who had a job, was the father of one of her children, he didn't live with her because if he did, her rent in public housing would be more! This woman practically bragged about all this to my mom.." Yes, some people on welfare seem to be proud they are scamming the system. A plumber husband, yet this woman is on public assistance? Unreal.

You are flapping your lips about things you clearly know nothing about. Public housing in NYC, particularly in Long Island City (oh, those Manhattan skyline views, they are gorgeous!) isn't as bad as some assume.

Years ago, I worked with a woman who remains in a public housing apartment In Long Island City, she lives right across from Silvercup Studios, in an area of Queens NYC, which now is boasting $1-2million dollar condos! There are even nice hotels in LIC. This woman is a fashion illustrator who grew up in the same apartment she now lives in, with her parents and a brother. She's never been on welfare, her daughter is an adult and moved out years ago. The daughter is a publicist in the music business.

Not everyone in 'the projects' is on welfare, this is an absurd assumption and a fallacy. Lots of people remain in public housing, especially in NYC, because it's one of the few places where your rent is determined by your income and assets. If you lose your job, then get another job which pays less, your rent is lowered.

Public housing rents are based on income and assets, not every resident lives on welfare and has tons of kids. The NYCHA projects are not the worst place to live.

Most of the public housing apartments aren't as bad as depicted on TV. In most of the projects in NY state, major renovations were done years ago. The kitchens and bathrooms were completely renovated, there are even new NYCHA buildings specifically for the elderly and handicapped. Honestly, way too many people don't have a clue. You sure don't! At least not about public housing in NYC.

R97 a unique NYC story that does not pertain well to the rest of the US ,esp. in mid size flyover cities.

[quote]Welfare can mean many things. If you mean gov payments because someone is poor, welfare can only last 6 years during a lifetime. Medicaid can last a lifetime and why not if you don’t mandate that every job, even minimum wage jobs, come with healthcare?

Not true either, at least not in NY state. I know someone who has been on Medicaid, for their health insurance, for over 12 years. This person makes sure not to accept the food stamp card, they don't have their rent covered and they do not receive any monthly subsidy towards their rent. This person works, doesn't make large scary and has few assets, they qualify to have their health insurance covered.

Medicaid is very convoluted, they will review whether or not you need to keep getting a food stamp card before they try to end your medical insurance! The health insurance costs more than a yearly food stamp card. The system in NY state is insane.

Rich people in NY have their longterm nursing home care covered 100% by Medicaid, they do this by moving their assets 5-6 years before they need to be in a nursing home full time. Their money goes into a trust. Millionaires are able to do this.

[quote] Every show is just better with a black minstrel

Jesus Christ! R1, WTF is wrong with you?

Why don't you try to discuss his arguments.

R92, calling a black man "Uncle Tom" is racist, isn't it? You expect him to hold the same political views as you. When he doesn't, you denigrate him. According to Robin DiA, you're supposed to sit down and listen to everything black people say and not offer up any criticism, right?

Good god.

I'll give you an example of institutional racism.

I teach at a southern college in the humanities. We're 80% white. I'm a GWM. I consider myself a decent professor even if I'm bored with the job. I'm sarcastic with my students and they seem to like it. I'm moderately involved with college life, but I'm over that too. I do my job, and clock out.

My colleague is a black woman in the sciences. Hired just after me. She bends over backwards for her students, goes to their sports meets, attends events and is a general force on campus. I adore her.

Guess who gets better student evauations?

R97, R98 is correct that your experience is not the same as other state especially in the south where I live. Working people may live in public housing but they are trying to get out ASAP. I work in a Ryan White Clinic and occasionally we get people from NYC as patients. Most never stay because we do not supplement Medicaid to the extent that NYC does. Most of the best medical practices either do not accept Medicaid (they are slow payers) or will only accept a small percentage of Medicaid patients. And as stated above Medicaid does not pay for any dental work for adults. I will still stick my story that is pathetic that a family has to live separately in order to survive. The fact that he contributes to what is essentially child support does not address the trauma those children experience from not having a father in the home. These folks are poor. I do not envy their situation nor would I want to live like that. I doubt you would either. You are correct that people should not have children they can not take provide for but what are the options for the children who are innocent in this situation. I will also stand by WHY Medicaid is given to women with children. Like it or not that is the rationale behind it. Foster care and group home are costly in numerous ways. I am not saying I agree with it but it is what it is.

I defy you to uncover Kmele Foster's education. I just googled for 5 minutes and got bupkes. He seems to be a bullshit artist.

Well, this is thread is very off-topic, but we may be vilifying the wrong segment of people here. It's equally 'unfair'(?) that we don't castigate the ultra wealthy 1% elites. They have so much and yet seem justified in paying little to zero taxes. Dumpster paid $750.00 in taxes last year. Some would rather waste/or 'redistribute' wealth to those less well off. At least, I feel a little better to fuck over the snobby assholes. And do not contend that they earned their wealth. Many have not and simply were the loin fruit of another asshole (Trump family).

Yeah, it's always interesting that the Liberal progressives, aka the extreme left, are so bad and dangerous ... for asking the 1% to share their wealth by paying their taxes instead of spending their money and influence to evade them. Madness, pure madness!

There is not a single thing in this world wrong with wanting the 1% to pay their fair share in taxes, however it sometimes appears that 'liberal progressives' want to penalize people for being successful or achieving the American dream. The problem is your messaging is off. Americans celebrate success. Stop trying to paint all billionaires as the enemy and point out the problems in our tax laws that allow them to use legal methods to not pay their fair share. Billionaires aren't the problem, the tax law is the problem.

[quote] however it sometimes appears that 'liberal progressives' want to penalize people for being successful or achieving the American dream.

Please, a great deal of these success stories were subsidized by government programs. Like, say, pharmaceutical companies receiving funds for research inventing the latest cures for the latest diseases. Then "big pharma", the media, government officials and posters like you, r107, whine how UNFAIR it is that these companies are treated like scum, because they can't keep all of their profits.

R107 w by is asking the 1% to pat their fair share of taxes considered a insult. To those who has more much is expected. Many got their “success” off the backs of workers they underpaid and underinsured. I mean how much money does Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk need? How was Trump who lives a life luxury able to get away with paying less than a thousand dollars in taxes. It is interesting that the rich sees taxes as a punishment while the rest of us are expected to subsidize their greed.

[quote]I mean how much money does Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk need?

That's not up to you or anyone else to decide how much money anyone needs or deserves.

[quote]Many got their “success” off the backs of workers they underpaid and underinsured.

That's a concept as old as this country. But now it's a problem?

R110, as taxpayer l must certainly can say as l am subsidizing their income through my taxes. Yes, the concept is as old as slavery and colonialism all three are wrong. We should be better than this.

[quote]That's a concept as old as this country. But now it's a problem?

Yes, it's now a problem, as it has always been a problem. Sometimes we choose to give a shit about that problem, at least some of us do. Others choose to sob and moan about the "needs" of billionaires who don't want to pay taxes.

He's a libertarian who has been paraphrasing Ayn Rand for years.

I have watched in person or online Democrats, moderate and so called 'progressive' (some Dems are labelled either depending on which is more favorable for Republicans at the time) speak about tax reform and they are spot on each time in identifying the problem. However, the Republicans and right wing media attack wit the lie about penalizing the American dream and push the Dems on the defense, trying to defend something they never said. The Republicans did this effectively about inheritance tax. They coined the phrase death tax which sounded terrible and you even had Walmart workers thinking a death tax was unconscionable even though those people will leave nothing to their children but a funeral bill.

[quote]Others choose to sob and moan about the "needs" of billionaires who don't want to pay taxes.

No one likes to pay taxes. Why should billionaires be any different? Again, the messaging is off. The most effective thing I've seen was when Biden kept pointing out that Trump only paid $750 in taxes. You have to break it down in terms that the average every day Joe can wrap his head around.

Billionaires can complain all they want. The rest of us don't have to give a shit about their complaints. And you comment about Trump's taxes just reinforces that point. Trump being under taxed, precisely because he's in the "rich grifter" tax bracket, is exactly the kind of thing we are talking about. Worrying about billionaires and their complaints is the least necessary thing any government can do.

R115 I was actually raised to believe that paying taxes was a noble and honorable thing to do. My parents were blue collar workers who didn't earn much but because we had to use public schools, hospitals, transport etc.. and because we were dependent on the safety net of unemployment, financial aid for students and state pensions we were always told that paying your taxes was for the greater good and that having a job and contributing would come around someday if/when you were stuck. Many of my older American friends tell me they were raised like this too. Some also remember a time when lawyers and doctors couldn't advertise and those professions were not considered rather noble and their relatives would treat patients for free and represent their neighbors in return for a casserole. They are aghast at the doctors earning 500K+ today and whining and playing the victim and pretending they are middle class by city X's standard.

So I believe the attitude to taxes changed sometime in the 80s. The attitude to money in general I guess you could say.

Apologies, those professions WERE considered noble

Well, but he makes an argument that resonates when he says, remove race, and let's talk about policies that can help all people who are vulnerable. What he does, is ignore history, and demonstrates total...and willful ignorance of SYSTEMIC Racism. He rejects facts that don't fit into the framework of his ideology, and he will be much in demand by factions and pundits who are "tired of casting things in a racial context." The "Tell" that he exposed, was when he threw the Marxist label out here. It's bullshit, but that doesn't matter, and even if it were true, does that negate the legitimacy of the movement? No, IMO it does not. I think the guy is an opportunist who is intellectually dishonest. Unfortunately Bill is an accommodationist and a self described "Libertarian" too. I liked the guy from Vanity Fair. Is he family? Because he is hot.

One of the worst episodes ever.

[quote] What he does, is ignore history, and demonstrates total...and willful ignorance of SYSTEMIC Racism

How is he ignoring history? He is just not letting it control today's reality and govern solutions.

He doesn't see systemic racism as you do. While he is not a fool denying that there may be racists in the world that does not equate to systemic racism. It just doesn't. And to sell your statements you need to make a better argument for them. i think you and others who recklessly bandy this descriptor around do not make an evidenced-based argument. Instead the so called evidence is too often that the results prove the racism, such as if tests scores in math are low in a given population of students then the tests are racist rather than other factors which may have contriubted to the low scores.

If there are vestigial effects of slavery and racism in the country - and to be sure there are - that does not mean that either of them exist as a SYSTEMIC problem in the system as it exists today.

That is the new & revised argument - that if we do not discriminate against non-black persons today to make up for past discrimination then the system is still racist. And that people who disagree with this new form of discrimination are racist. Which is utter nonsense. Unfortunately I think this "discriminate to stop discrimination" policy has been sold to Biden. We'll have to see how some of the new Exectutive Orders and policies stand up in court under constitutional challenges.

[quote] No one likes to pay taxes. Why should billionaires be any different?

There's a difference between not liking to pay taxes and looking for ways to not pay taxes or full-on criminal acts of tax fraud and tax evasion.

And there is a difference between tax crimes and using existing tax law to pay as little as possible.

This was THE worst episode in the history of the show.

I think it is obvious that Bill is being sucked down these right-wing rabbit holes. I think he got red-pilled while doing reasearch.

He now uses the vocabulary of 4chan, with words like "Chad" so I think it's obvious he is getting brainwashed. It can happen to anyone. That is why I don't argue with these parasites like this black loser who just wants to join the right-wing gravy train instead of working.

I stay far away from all these deplorables and don't read their tweets or listen to their nonsense propaganda. They are just going to try to use cognitive dissonance to confuse and disorient you. You will never have a productive conversation with these people.

Uncle Tom's are the absolute worst and these are the same people who used to try to rat out slaves that were trying to escape from plantations.

R125 = white guy who can't handle independent black thinkers. So he resorts to racist insults. LOL!

[quote] And there is a difference between tax crimes and using existing tax law to pay as little as possible.

Existing law that, for some reason, favors the 1%. Could that be because they, I don't know, use their money to bribe government officials to take it easier for rich people to pay barely any taxes?

But the radical left is, well, radical for trying to change these existing laws and close loopholes that the 1% use to evade taxes. But that's not ok, because it's unfair to these poor 1%ers getting punished for being so successful while the lazy bums on welfare steal a couple of millions while the 1% have to settle for a couple of billions for their handout.

sorry, to make it easier for rich people to barely pay any taxes?

Why are we giving microphones and pedistools to uneducated trash? Go learn something first and then speak. Not the other way around.

There are enough right-wing, fake intellectuals to last a life time. They field is saturated and this loser is latching in to an already full cart. Get a job and stop grifting from people. When did professional grifting become acceptable.

When "There's a sucker born every minute" became a profitable career choice.

*pedestal

The uncle toms do a lot more damage than the kkk because the uncle Tom’s give cover to the racists. It’s so dangerous. This reminds me of the days when they used to turn in their fellow slaves for every minor infraction.

I wouldn't consider it dangerous. More like pathetic that some people are such desperate sell-outs they turn on their own family, tribe or community.

Does anyone still fall for things like "I'm no racist or homophobe, but ... / how dare you accuse me of being racist / homophobic? I have black / gay friends!"?

[quote]But the radical left is, well, radical for trying to change these existing laws and close loopholes that the 1% use to evade taxes.

From what I've seen the radical left is too busy with statues and making sure that everyone's pronouns are respected to focus on important issues like tax reform.

An excerpt from the show. Despite this specific tweet's sentiment, there are many including doctors and other POC who agree with him.

People who agree on a goal often disagree on how to get there. That doesn;t make either side evil or racist or an Uncle Tom. The intolerance of diversity of POVs is a dangerous and totalitarian problem.

It is dangerous, because back in the slave days the uncle toms would snitch and do anything to hold back their fellow slaves because they would get extra privileges. And people like this guy will do anything to get ahead, including giving cover to the KKK. Just as the uncle toms of yore got ahead by snitching on slaves just for trying to be free.

It's not just some racist joke, Uncle Toms are very dangerous and capable of going to great lengths to keep blacks enslaved. The uncle toms have been oppressing blacks for centuries and they need to be stopped. They are even worse than the KKK because they actually empower and enable the KKK.

Tim Scott is another example of generational oppression techniques that uncle toms have been using for ages. He gets a cushy senate seat in exchange for continuing the status quo of systematic oppressions. This needs to end in order for black people top rise to their full potential. They will never be able to do that if uncle toms keep oppressing them and minimizing their struggle.

It's more than just a silly joke. This is an organized effort to recruit blacks to keep the status quo of systematic racism. It has been going on for ages, and it continues in modern times with guys like Bill's guest, Jamie Scott, and that black sheriff that has made tons of cash from this age-old racket.

There is nothing new about what this guy is doing. Read a history book from time to time.

Anybody, including this idiot guest, who enriches themselves solely by continuing the oppression of his own people, are the reason for so much destruction in this world.

If people would quit selling out their brothers and sisters just to get some followers or sell a book, this world will be a better place.

Uncle toms are useful for many reasons, and the deal usually goes like this: "If you help me oppress your kind, I will give you a pass."

And people like this greedy thug are the first to sign up. They have no conscience and don't even care if their own children face racism in the future. As long as they got theirs.

Its like Harris Faulkner, she got her millions so she immediately joins the KKK network.

It's amazing how fast people will turn on their own kind for a buck. This guy is getting scraps. At least Faulkner got millions and Tim Scott got a senate seat.

This guys sells out his people just to get social media followers. What a terrible betrayal.

So if Charles Mansion was giving his opinion, we are supposed to take the time and hear him out? Is that really what you are claiming? You're going to have to walk me through that one. As if everyone's opinion is somehow valuable?

People are crazy. They are stupid. If you listen to them, you life will be ruined.

Why do we give evil, selfish, self-serving, lying, bullshitting, gaslighting people a microphone?

What about stupid idiots? Should we let them write policy? Maybe we should put them in charge of your next surgery.

The intolerance of others is what is dangerous. There is nothing "Uncle Tom" about this guy. Refuting ideas requires more than insults and slurs and a demand for no deviation from your preferred opinion.

This legacy of compensating blacks to oppress other blacks needs to end. If all blacks were all given equal opportunities, they wouldn't need to sell out their own race just to gain a few followers.

The whole operation is sick and depraved.

And it needs to end today.

If you think people like Ben Carson are so smart, let him do surgery on your child.

"One of Carson’s disastrous operations involved a 9-year-old girl who was undergoing surgery to remove a brain tumor. Instead of only removing part of the tumor, as he was authorized to do by the girl’s parents, Carson allegedly removed the entire mass, which had been deemed too risky. After the surgery, the girl was left permanently paralyzed on her right side. The parents sued Carson and Johns Hopkins Hospital for medical malpractice in 2010."

That sounds like Hubris to me, not a mistake. Dumb people are often arrogant. These right-wing nut cases are extremely dangerous because they don't listen to logic or reason. They deny what it right in front of them, even if it causes terrible consequences.

"Carson has been sued twice for leaving equipment and objects inside of patients. During the surgery of a young girl, Carson allegedly implanted a shunt upside down."

"In another case, Carson allegedly left a sponge in the brain of a 69-year-old woman, which caused her constant nerve pain."

"he was hit with eight malpractice claims in Maryland, according to the Maryland Health Care Alternative Dispute Resolution Office"

EIGHT CLAIMS in just ONE STATE!

And that was only the ones who came forward.

This is just one example of how entrusting right-wing loons will mess you up.

"Carson didn’t review her MRI before doing the procedures. “According to the claim, the MRI would have alerted Carson that Perna had lesions on her brainstem as a result of her MS, making the microvascular decompression essentially useless.”

"...after Carson finally reviewed the MRI post-procedure, he came to her hospital room in a “highly agitated state.” The suit stated that Carson said, “They did not tell me that there are lesions on your brainstem. Had I known that, we would have never done the microvascular decompression.” Sounds just like Carson, blaming everyone but himself."

But he is intolerant and worse he is gaslighting thousands of black people who have experienced racism.

It's the gaslighting that I take issue with. There is nothing more evil that you can do than try to confuse a group of people who have been through enough abuse to last for generations. They don't need more abuse from people like this grifting thug.

His great-great ancestor was likely someone like Stephen.

Bill Maher needs to take 6 moths off. I think the last 4 years have really got to him. I think for a moment there he thought they were going to round him up.

What in the world does malpractice and Ben Carson have to do with this? Stop using silly deflection and slurs rather than reasoned arguments.

And this

[quote] This is an organized effort to recruit blacks to keep the status quo of systematic racism.

is the epitome of racist white entitlement to suggest that blacks who disagree with your party line are too stupid or avaricious to have their own opinions and principles. Same on you. And fuck off.

That's Shame on you. Happy to repeat it.

Gaslighting and purposely trying to confuse and disorient you’re own race in exchange for profit is not new. It goes back to nazi Germany as well as the plantations.

This creep guest has found a way to adapt this age old grift to the 21st century.

your

R161 just lost the argument. I was waiting for that.

But keep up the racist insults to black commentators for those who don't toe the white man's line.

I’m confused.

We all saw that the black guest was the one who is toting the white man’s line.

I think he is more of a pseudo authority/intellectual. I have particular perspective as a gay man, but it doesn’t necessarily mean I deserve a platform and should speak as an authority on it to other groups. I question how much the guest has read/studied the history of systemic racism in this country. Being black and having a mic/platform shouldn’t be the only qualifier.

I’ve have enough gaslighting from right-wing sympathizers to last a lifetime.

"racist white entitlement"

The black guest on Bill's show said that doesn't exist.

The right wing trolls need to get their story straight.

It took us 159 posts but we got the right wing to admit that racism exist.

Job well done!

Bill "welcoming" the new douchebags.

Wow, the intolerance in this thread is staggering. As I stated up thread, there simply is no room for differing points of view, and that's really telling about how unfocused & irrational the business of race baiting is. Assuming that all black people share a similar, exclusive lived experience is narrow, and racist at its core, really. What's worse is the childish, slur laden responses when someone dares to speak out against the stereotypical, expected & deemed acceptable politicized dialog. Pathetic, especially since too many self-appointed race "experts" have been given unlimited free-ride passes to spew simplified, hateful--and not to mention, contradictory & self-parodied rhetoric, and have become millionaires doing so. Is it because their message is comforting to those who wish victimhood for perpetuity? Is it because it justifies eschewing the intellect & work it takes to consider a profound issue from another angle? This latest push for "racial equity" has become the laughable counterproductive mess pride parades have become, where grown men & the "queer" dressed in g-strings, fetishist gear, cartoonish drag , blah blah blah march in the name of increased understanding, tolerance & mainstream inclusion. In actuality all this is achieving is the regression of social advancement. Unfortunately, anyone participating in these movements fails to recognize the picture beyond their own simplified role in very simplified causes. Too bad, since commentators like Foster are really pointing to the diverse complexities of an issue that are conveniently ignored.