Stock Aitken Waterman

Because it was garbage music with bad karaoke vocals.

It wasn't all bad. Their early stuff with Bananarama, Dead or Alive, Divine, O'Chi Brown, and Mel & Kim was great. The Kylie and Rick Astley singles were terrific. Some of it started to sound the same, and the novelty wore off. But, there was still a lot of great songs.

The OP says the music is great. The question is - why didn't it take over American airwaves?

I dunno OP - but all that music was big in NYC if II remember correctly.

There were a few hits - You Spin Me Round, Venus, Never Gonna Give You Up, Together Forever (Rick had two #1 hits in America), This Time I Know It's For Real, Kylie's Locomotion, I Only Wanna Be With You (Sam Fox's version hit top 40), That's What Love Can Do (Boy Krazy song which became a surprise hit in 1992).

America was never going to go for Sinitta or Hazell Dean.

It's true a lot of it did make the club charts and was big in the dance and gay community, for example heard all over Fire Island but never broke through besides the few hits mentioned above.

There are some hits but a FUCK-ton of misses.

Kylie Minogue was unknown when she was asked to contribute vocals for a soap opera charity cover of the Locomotion which was a massive hit in Australia. Her episodes of soap Neighbours had only been airing for a couple of weeks when she flew to London, SAW had no idea who she was so wrote the slyly cynical "I Should Be So Lucky" while Kylie waited outside.

Stock later told The Guardian: "We had to get the song together in about 40 minutes and she left not having had a happy experience. We didn’t know we had a hit on our hands and so when it went to No 1 for five weeks, someone said: 'What’s the follow-up?' We didn't have one. So I went out to Australia at the start of 1988 and met her in a bar with Jason and her manager. I basically crawled 100 yards on my knees and apologised profusely."

I Should be So Lucky sold almost a million copies in England. Mandy Smith was the UK star Stock Aitken Waterman was promoting to become a big sex symbol/singer in 1987. Mandy hadn't had any hits so got bumped, and Kylie was given Mandy's song "Got to Be Certain" to record as a follow up, which debuted at No. #1 in Australia.

The videos for Kylie's first several singles are childlike, zany, with lots of primary colors and Memphis looking clothing and designs.

From "Je Ne Sais Pas Pourquoi" onward, things are more sophisticated, classical looking, with lots of inspirations from 1940s film actresses and such.

Occasionally America gets it right.

America also missed out on disco Kylie, which was Stock Aitken Waterman at their very best. Also during the same era, Lonnie Gordon's album "If I Have to Stand Alone" was released. Arguably their finest and most consistent record, written for Donna Summer, but one she failed to record with them.

Are SAW gays?

I love the one they did with Laura Branigan, "Shattered Glass."

That tinny, overworked sound was played everywhere in gay venues in the UK for years. I hated it, and started going to alternative one nighters to hear different music. I also don't get the appeal of dance music or DJ worship.

Venus and You Spin Me are classic bangers. The rest are forgettable.

It was played a lot in the US, primarily in dance clubs and some smaller stations. But since disco, there was this anti-dance feel in America - it was considered black music or gay music.

That didn't really change until mid to late 2000s when all of a sudden, EDM started taking over on pop charts.

I remember when I started hearing EDM sounding music consistently on top 40 radio in the US - I was like FINALLY.

Golden Oldies!

Rolling Stones!

We don't want them back!

I'd rather jack

Than Fleetwood Mac!

(1989)

Hazell Dean's "Whatever I Do, Wherever I Go" ruled the gay clubs in 1984-1986.

Kylie's 1989 SAW worldwide hit, "Better The Devil You know," is her best song.

It became a US gay bar hit in 1991 as part of the soundtrack of a movie starring then-hot Richard Grieco.

A respectable number of US hits, but certainly no Bee Gees

Another of SAW's best songs is "My Arms Keep Missing You," which Rick Astley released as a non-album single in 1988.

Almost all their songs sound the same. The remixes were even worse, with several of them sharing the exact same drum track. I remeber thinking at the time that they should have sued themselves for plagarism.

After Kylie they pretty much over. They did try and diversify their sound at the end, but not all that successfully.

But their final minor US hits were not that bad: a top 100 hit with Sybil (The Love I Lost, #90), and later two hits with US girl-band Boy Krazy (That's What Love Can Do, #18, and Good Times With Bad Boys, #58) BOTH of the latter songs were written for Kylie if she ever choose to record with SAW again.

The Boy Krazy tracks in 1993 were kind of a hot mess. They might have become like the Spicegirls if perhaps the timing was better.

Samantha Fox's version of That's What Love Can Do is a curiosity.

Kylie's final original Stock Aitken and Waterman produced track. She left a sexy, confident superstar!

For what it's worth, Pete Waterman is pretty much retired now and fiddles around with his train collection in Northern England. Matt Aiken does god knows what, but Mike Stock, who was the driving musical force of the production trio, is a MASSIVE looney tunes Trump supporter. Take a look at his Twitter feed (both of them...he's got two) over the past five years, and you'll see he retweets massive amounts of American right-wing Qanon & pro-Brexit garbage hourly. The 2016 election -- in particular, Hillary Clinton's presidential run -- sent him over the edge. The sad irony, since he made millions off producing female, black and gay artists and pandering to the gay record-buying public. Clearly being forced into retirement after foisting the Fast Food Rockers onto the British public in 2003 has given Mike Stock plenty of time to go bonkers in his mansion.

I loathed - LOATHED - their sound.

As much as I like both electronica and dance, their sound always sounded so cheap and dinky, like someone made it on a Fisher-Price xylophone.

Morris Minor & The Majors ridicule the SAW sound.

SAW makes me nostalgic for a time I never knew, as I was not born yet or just a toddler when they all came out. I appreciate the driving, relentless basslines that shift to minor chords -- which admittedly sound the same in almost every song. It's music I put on when I feel down and out; I usually end up dancing, with my spirits lifted.

The SAW-sound would made its way to Japan and have an impact there that would last for years.

Why the fuck would a Brit be obsessed with Trump? What is with these foreigners and there obsession with Trump. The same with that other asshole from the BeeGees? What is with these people and American style racism and Bigotry? You'd think they'd be turned off by that.

Fuck these assholes!

R30 there's a gay porn model who's German, lives in Scotland and is a Trump fanatic and also one of those He-Man woman haters who thinks father's rights trump everything in the world. He also opposes gay sex-ed and supports parents sending their gay kids to conversion therapy.

The world is full of loonies.

[quote]Why the fuck would a Brit be obsessed with Trump?

Why are so many Americans obsessed with the British royal family?

R32 If Congress had passed that bill to band all references to the Royal family in America, back in the 90s. Than that probably wouldn't be the case.

Yes, there was a Republican bill back in the 99s to gave a Royal family black out in America. Because we're supposed to be anti monarchy in America.

SA&W is about the only songs I remember from the late 80s. New Wave had ended; gender-bending was out of style; and hip-hop-pop was taking over (Paula Abdul, janet, Milli Vanilli, The Jets, etc.).

Not sure what OP is saying about them not resonating with Americans; how would I know the SA&W sound if they hadn't played on Flyover radio?

Are SAW gay men??

Mike Stock is a piece of shit.

"Kylie Minogue songwriter Mike Stock issued a public apology to fans on Monday after becoming embroiled in a Twitter row about the Black Lives Matter movement and Brexit with a musician who is battling stage four bowel cancer.

The record producer, 68, sparked fury when he appeared to ridicule Delays singer Greg Gilbert by saying 'You’re still here? Stage 4?' moments after the cancer sufferer insisted the withdrawal of the UK from the EU poses a risk to him due to a loss of clinical trials.

After being branded 'vile' and accused of 'bullying', the Stock Aitken Waterman star claimed he 'never knowingly' intended to 'mock anyone with such an illness', and has attempted to reach out to Greg privately to apologise."

Mike Stock actually followed my (openly gay) account for some reason.

He Liked and ReTweeted a nasty Repug Tweet about Bill Clinton, so I blocked him.

I liked their Bananarama stuff.

They were over as soon as the 90s happened and new styles of music took over.

No one has mentioned the gayest of the SAW/PWL acts (no, not Sonia)? Big Fun, consisting of Phil Creswick, Mark Gillespie and Jason John (a.k.a. Jason Herbert). I'm obsessed with the video for Can't Shake The Feeling - the hairdryers at the beginning, the oversized bomber jackets, Phil's abject seriousness with the choreography at 3:04, the choreography in general (walk, walk, walk, booty shake, booty shake), Mark's crotch shot at 2:14 (someone dresses to the right). and Jason's eyeroll at 2:44.

Does anyone know if SAW are actually gay?

I always assumed they were but Mike Stock seems like a Deplorable psycho, so most likely not gay.

I Googled them for myself. SAW are not gay.

Cancelled!

Hazell Dean pretending to be straight!

Heterosexual Jason Donovan in 1989!

R29 Did SAW's work with Kakko influence the Japanese SAW sound? And really R29, we SHOULD be dancing!

When Lady Gaga went mainstream Mike Stock was very vocal in criticising her overtly sexual image.

The same Mike Stock who wrote "I Just Can't Wait" for Mandy Smith. That was 16 year old Mandy Smith who at that point had been "dating" 51 year old Bill Wyman for 3 years.

Donna Summer's comeback with SAW. I would post the "official video" but someone fucked up the aspect ratio, so instead, here is the extended mix video. She looks and sounds great.

Sonia is barking up the wrong tree with her dance partner.

I really liked Sonias album.

I Want You Back - rerecorded with Jacquie O'Sullivan after Siobhan Fahey left Bananarama. Poor Jacquie, she looks happy in this video but the original 'Ramas were mean girls and never let her really be part of the group. Well, at least there are Go-Go boys.

SAW completely reworked Debbie Harry's 1986 song "In Love With Love" for its 1987 single release, including an extra verse.

R49 Fun fact about Bananarama - they were the influence for Patsy on AbFab. Start at 2:25

SAW produced a new version of Hazell Dean's "Whatever I Do, Wherever I Go" for Laura Branigan's 1987 album.

HEY! HEY, BOY!

(1986)

SAW documentary.

SAW ruled 1988!

With Jacquie!

Sonia looked like a Romanian cleaning lady.

If you were a gay bar DJ back then, it was so simple to mix SAW songs into and out of each other.

In 1987, Bananarama's "I Heard A Rumour (House Mix)" mixed seamlessly with Mel & Kim's "Respectable."

This 1987 song is so much better than ANYTHING on Pop Radio today.

Radio DJ's Pat & Mick's cover of Use It Up And Wear It Out

OP mentioned this song. I was surprised it was SAW.

A huge chunk of I Heard A Rumour was stolen from this song.

Still crazy that it was a much bigger hit in the US than the UK.

[quote]OP mentioned this song. I was surprised it was SAW.

In addition to the Hi NRG, SAW did a lot of R&B/Soul lite in the early days - O'Chi Brown, Princess, The Three Degrees then Mel & Kim and later Donna Summer and Lonnie Gordon.

Sybil's Make It Easy On Me wasn't a hit and given to Steps for their second album.

R56 Romanian cleaning ladies didn't wear "Blossom" hats.

For some reason, Donna Summer didn't want to do a follow-up album with SAW, even though they gave her the first hit she'd had in years. Donna made a bunch of odd career choices.

Donna was a Born Again bigot and an idiot. Talented, yes. But an idiot.

Donna really screwed herself in the 80s with her dumb career decisions. We had a thread not too long ago that listed all the songs she turned down in the 80s, and they all became HUGE hits for other artists. She was really stupid, she needed much better management than what she had.

Donna didn't want I Don't Wanna Get Hurt released as a single and refused to record a video for it. When it made the top 10 she was happy to appear on Top Of The Pops.

Donna's best 1989 song with SAW is "Love's About To Change My Heart."

Wasn't it her husband who suggested she work with SAW? I don't really buy that but I read it somewhere.

As talented as Donna was, she also could be a bit lazy. She barely released albums after 1989. I remember reading something about her making the SAW album and someone said she would come in and record a few lines and then go out shopping.

This is SAW as artists themselves. Dare I say this song is........funky?

The sound was based on gay club music of the time, but by the end of the eighties it had started to be seen as music for children.

Just as well Donna is dead - she'd be cancelled for yellowing up.

Despite the slick mullet, this is my favorite Jason Donovan song.

I'd Rather Jack is definitely the nadir of the SAW era. Just terrible. Embarrassing.

S-S-Samantha Fox covers Dusty Springfield

[quote]but by the end of the eighties it had started to be seen as music for children.

Stock Aitken Waterman's talent as songwriters is indisputable but their control over their songs and their marketing left a lot to be desired.

Many of their singles came with an instrumental b-side and the lyrics on the sleeve, and the design of the records themselves were beyond basic.

You can tell from Kylie's single covers when she really took control of her career - compare Wouldn't Change A Thing and Never Too Late to What Do I Have To Do and Shocked.

Had they given songs to other artists to go and produce themselves, even under a pseudonym, it would have given them some credibility. The way Kylie and her musical directors manage to make the SAW songs sound fresh and different on each tour shows it could have been done.

Maybe it's because she recorded a Bacharach & David song by the same name, but Another Night would have been perfect for Dusty.

Bananarama (pre Jacquie)- Love In The First Degree

Big Fun covers The Jacksons (formerly The Jackson 5)

"We spent the night in Frisco, at every kind of disco..." I bet they did.

Their songs always seem so over produced.

But to be honest everything in the 80’s seems overproduced now

[quote] Maybe it's because she recorded a Bacharach & David song by the same name, but Another Night would have been perfect for Dusty.

Dusty was famously finicky about songs.....she's turned down more songs than most artists ever recorded!

Madonna should do a SAW album. She needs a hit.

Pete Waterman knew when to recycle a hit song.

Last Thing On My Mind wasn't a hit for Bananarama in 1992 but was a huge hit for Steps in 1998.

Adjusting the pitch turns Kylie into Rick.

I'm with those on this thread who don't like the SAW sound. I agree that it sounds way too tinny and cheap. Interestingly, I remember reading that the Pet Shop Boys basically analysed the way SAW created their factory music and used that to write "Being Boring", which doesn't sound like SAW but is structured the same (and is better than anything SAW did, in my opinion - plus did SAW ever have naked men's butts in their videos? I think not!).

R47, any time I have seen that video, I think the exact same thing, haha.

Sonia, incidentally, was one of the few, if only, people parodied by French and Saunders who was really hurt by it and refused to be in the same room as Dawn, always mysteriously disappearing when they were meant to be in the same place together. Dawn has said a few times she feels really badly about it, although I don't think the parody was that mean personally.

R34, what you term "hip-hop-pop", was that New Jack Swing? Or is that a different type of music again?

That Bananarama song is from their1992 "Please Yourself" album which is kind of a lost SAW gem. Though the boring cover of "More More More" was the lead single, which bombed, there were quite a few gems in there, like the my favorite below, the shimmering disco track "Give It All Up For Love" that harkens back to their great 80's hits on the WOW album. Sadly the album wasn't even released in the US and was only available as an import.

[quote]Though the boring cover of "More More More" was the lead single, which bombed, there were quite a few gems in there

More More More was the third single and a top 30 hit. Movin' On was the first single from Please Yourself and one of their finest. Had they released it a few months later, after the success of Abba Gold, it might have been a bigger hit. Another song Pete Waterman recycled with Steps.

Suzette Charles had a minor hit in the UK with SAW's "Free to Love Again."

At first their music sounds jarring and annoying but once you start listening to enough of it. You really start to appreciate their talent and ability to put so much energy into their songs. The SAW team really knew how to write song lyrics and arrange melodies and beats. And their stuff can sound sophisticated when you sit down and notice the nuances. It does seem the more talented or heavily involved the artist is the better the material they produce. It would be really hard to make singers like Donna Summer and Rick Astley sound bad.

"More More More" is one of those songs that just can't be remade. The original is perfect and classic.

And apparently Rick Astley was discovered by Waterman when he was on stage performing with his band FBI, a soul band. Rick was this unsophisticated and humble working class lad. He shared a flat with Waterman in London and served as a tea-boy for them and many of their clients like Bananarama. I hope Waterman didn't ask for more than "tea" from Rick lol

I think this was one of his earliest singles with SAW. He's on a duet with some singer named Lisa and honestly his vocals overpower hers.

R10 Perfect pop.

[quote] He shared a flat with Waterman in London and served as a tea-boy for them and many of their clients

Is "tea-boy" a euphemism for something, or is it a person who just brings tea? I know they drink a lot of it over there, but it doesn't sound like a full-time job.

[quote] Is "tea-boy" a euphemism for something, or is it a person who just brings tea? I know they drink a lot of it over there, but it doesn't sound like a full-time job.

Actually, teaboy or teagirl is a real part-time job in The UK but it's not really a thing anymore. I reckon since Waterman was supporting Rick with food and shelter, he probably had Rick earn his keep by serving tea to him and his clients.

It seems hip hop, R&B, house, trance, pop ballads, alternative rock and Britpop killed SAW's dominance on the charts. Dance-pop and new jack swing were completely out by 1993. Kylie was smart to change up her style and go towards a more urban direction.

Rick Astley who was probably the most vocally talented of SAW's roster went on to make more albums with full creative control but they weren't as big as his first two. I think he was too associated with the 1980s for people to take seriously plus he was too reclusive and didn't promote himself well. George Michael and Whitney Houston made better transitions from dance-pop to adult contemporary. It took an internet meme for Rick to start promoting himself again.

True r95. Rick Astley could've had a bigger career in the 90s but he just didn't get out there and do the PR stuff that entertainers have to do to stay relevant.

The KLF parodied the SAW sound too. With a house track aptly called "Kylie Said to Jason" and the b-side track called "Kylie Said Trance".

most of their work was fucking trash, that's why

especially some of their British recording acts . Just overly cheesy

British pop music which leaned more on New Wave and synthpop was quite excellent in the early 80s like Adam Ant, Laura Branigan, Banarama, Wham!, Fine Young Cannibals, Pet Shop Boys, The Culture Club, Nik Kershaw, Julian Lennon, Soft Cell, The Eurythmics and Kate Bush.

Dance-pop and hair metal music oversaturated the UK/US market by the late 80s similar to the disco explosion in the late 1970s and people got sick of it and there was backlash. Dance-pop came back in the late 90s and died for a bit but came back again in the late 2000s. It's all cyclical.

Laura Branigan wasn't British.

Lesbian in love with a gay man

To me it's British House music. Very overpowering producers like Trevor Horn or Stephen Hague who put their distinctive mark on each song they produce instead of complimenting the actual performer. Very factory made music.

I think SAW worked best when the performer had more creative control. Rick Astley had a lot of input in his albums. Kylie took control starting with Rhythm of Love.

The beginning of the Kylie we all know and love.

Mel and Kim ... discovered them whilst backpacking in Europe in 1987 ... Munich maybe?

Fans of Stock Aitken Waterman should enjoy A Journey Through Stock Aitken Waterman, a podcast from some Australian homosexuals featuring interviews with the likes of Hazell Dean, Two Of The Three Degrees and Princess.

It's very well made - 8 episodes so far and they've just finished 1985.

Wow, all of these songs suck!

I hate that SAW worked with so many poor quality singers. Princess was one of the exceptions.

Is this Acid House?

That's not Acid House but this is

They should have released that song as a single. Sonia could have used a little more club cred.

Hazell Dean's "Who's Leaving Who" -- a cover of an Anne Murray song (when the latter tried to shed her country sound).

Jason Donovan's "Too Many Broken Hearts" flopped in the US, but I always thought the B side was better, perfect for Adult Contemporary stations.

There's something very jolly hockey sticks Head Girl about Hazell's bopping in that video, r112.

Because their shit all sounds the same

[quote] There's something very jolly hockey sticks Head Girl about Hazell's bopping in that video, [R112].

Less head girl, more lesbian PE teacher.

When they worked with the acts who either had strong vocal chops (Donna, Rick Astley, Princess, for example) or a strong, more independent personality (Bananarama, Kylie, Mel & Kim, Dead Or Alive), they hit pure gold. The rest were the proof that literally anybody can be turned into a one or two hit wonder even if they had all the presence of a used fish and chips wrapper (Jason Donovan, Sonia, Big Fun, Hazell Dean, etc)

What another poster mentioned upthread about PSB trying to apply the SAW formula on one of their tracks is correct. I think Neil Tennant discussed it somewhere: verses are always in minor chords and then the chords go up in the chorus.

Hazell and Sonia had good voices, though. No one wanted to be in their gang, though.

Waterman probably got to suck on Astley's fat uncut hog. Lucky fucker.

But SAW did like the pretty boys

Exhibit B

Exhibit C

Michael Davidson - Turn It Up

He actually lucked out because the song was on the WHO'S THAT GIRL soundtrack. The song please in the scene where Madonna drives Griffin Dunne's Rolls-Royce and they almost get hit by a train

I thought Matt Aitken was dead.

Michael Davidson had a follow up with the non-SAW song Warehouse.

Unfortunately, it didn't do too well and was obscure even in gay clubs.

You Spin Me Round, is a classic. I always sing it at the top of my lungs when I hear it.

Most of SAW's songs sound like J-pop that belongs on an 80s or 90s anime.

A few of these songs are fun to hear every now and then but so much of it is disposable.

The Mel & Kim "F.L.M." LP was pretty good.

Kylie's music from SAW aside from most of the singles and several album tracks wasn't very good. While the critics were mixed to somewhat positive her SAW albums (with the exception of Let's Get To It) were commercially successful. Her two albums with DeConstruction were appraised by critics but commercially unsuccessful. It wasn't until she released Light Years 13 years into her career that she had an album that was both critically and commercially successful, then of course Fever was released and things really took off for her from there. Out of all of SAW's roster of artists they discovered Kylie and Rick Astley are the only two artists they can be proud of.

This is so totally my childhood. I hated this sound though because it was overplayed and I hated that cheap sounding synth thing. And I just hated Sonia’s face. I could tell as a 7 year old that these were some junk being force fed to the masses in my country, being played over and over again hoping that they will hit through repetition. It was clear that the songs didnt sound american- i thought they were junk songs from australia, you never heard them on the top 40 stations but only on the “cheap” and unclassy radio stations where i comefrom. I feel nostalgic about them now though. Does anybody have a spotify playlist?

Kylie made smart decisions with her career after SAW. She was very ambitious to make her music career happen and had a good ear for hits. Rick Astley could actually sing and he had some creative control too, he tried to keep the music more on the soul and R&B side rather than dance-pop. When he got free from SAW, he just did adult contemporary style ballads. Donna Summer did good work with SAW, again it helped she could sing and she was an industry veteran.

Have always detested Kylie Minogue. SAW were pretty big over here, OP, people knew who they were or at least music followers knew them. And whoever was listing the Brit pop stars of the 80s left off Howard Jones.

[quote]Does anybody have a spotify playlist?

R130 It also helped that she has a consistent track record of being very nice with her fans and everyone she has ever worked with. Dannii was known to be very rude to the few fans she has and look where she is today. I'm not saying that being nice guarantees success (because look at Madonna who is the complete opposite of nice and is more successful than Kylie) but it helps ensure loyalty and future work with previous collaborators.

Madonna only got away with her rude, nasty behavior because she was the biggest pop star for decades. She was popular at her debut but catapulted herself to mega stardom with Like A Virgin. She got away with throwing shade at everyone in interviews and being a mega bitch just because of her popularity and being untouchable at the time. Now, Madonna is a laughingstock and alienated so many people in the industry that her recent albums have been mediocre, she doesn't get any good producers or songwriters to help her and all she has left are her aging fans despite the fact she is dismissive to them. Kylie isn't mega-huge like some other pop stars but she is still well-liked by the industry and general public. Her recent album broke expectations with its sales and streams. It helps Kylie is a sweet person with a sense of humor, she loves her fandom and she releases remixes of her older songs, she kept her camp factor too which is how she got her gay fanbase.

SAW had ten Top 20 hits in the US - that's not a bad result in an environment where anything considered too close to disco was vilified and written off as offensively gay. Rock and male aggression still ruled at that point in time. SAW's Top 20 US hits: "You Spin Me Round Like A Record" - Dead Or Alice - #11 "Venus" - Bananarama - #1 "Brand New Lover" - Dead Or Alive - #15 "I Heard A Rumour" - Bananarama - #4 "Never Gonna Give You Up" - Rick Astley - #1 "Together Forever" - Rick Astley - #1 "The Loco-Motion" - Kylie Minogue - #3 "It Would Take A Strong, Strong Man" - Rick Astley - #10 "This Time I Know It's For Real" - Donna Summer - #7 "That's What Love Can Do" - Boy Krazy - #18

Such a sad story what happened with Mel & Kim. They really did seem like two nice young chavvy girls who just liked getting dressed up and going to the club on the weekend. Not some great artisan musicianship, but not pretending to be. Simply fun and charismatic, relatable young pop personalities with a memorable look and a few cute songs.

The SAW sound really did sound poorly mixed or something, very metallic, plasticky, and almost ‘in the red’. I loved when they did mature, but they had barely any hits after that. My favourite is the Sybil cover of ‘The Love I Lost’ though, it reminds me of Donna Summer’s ‘On The Radio’ or ‘Last Dance’ with the slow open leading to a disco beat.

Mel & Kim were chirpy, not chavvy.

Poor Sonia. That is hilarious that Sonia thought releasing her own version of a song called Better the Devil You Know, three years after Kylie's would reignite her career.

A while ago I tracked down a few songs from the SAW-produced and US-based group Boy Krazy, who recorded some unused songs written for Kylie, which she turned down in order to be a free agent. 'Good Times With Bad Boys' would have definitely been a huge hit for Kylie, maybe even another US breakthrough for her.

Kylie's mid-career output with SAW is effortlessly timeless though. Who knew that sexy songs, with sexy videos, and sexy guys would age well?

[R 106] Kim from Mel & Kim is still around and has spoken to the SAW podcast.

It's a real shame that Donna moved on from SAW so quickly. "When I'm Good and Ready" would have suited her as well.

It's bittersweet watching some of the Mel & Kim videos now (with puppets playing them or whatever) and knowing that they couldn't appear themselves because Mel was dying. I can't think of many other pop artists who passed away literally at the height of their success.

"Respectable" might be the most quintessential SAW record (sonically), with the chunky sound, remixed vocals, and abrasive staccato chords.

Buddy Holly?

[Quote] Waterman probably got to suck on Astley's fat uncut hog

Is Waterman gay?

[quote]Poor Sonia. That is hilarious that Sonia thought releasing her own version of a song called Better the Devil You Know, three years after Kylie's would reignite her career.

In 1989 and 1990 Sonia had a UK #1, 5 other top 20 hits, a top ten album with SAW

In 1991 and 1992 Sonia had another top 10 hit and 3 other top 30 songs away from SAW.

In 1993 Sonia signed up for Eurovision and performed 8 songs on live tv. The public voted for their favourite and Better The Devil You Know was selected. Sonia came second at Eurovision and had her last top 20 hit.

It was her last hit but served her well enough to make the move into West End and she took on the role of Sandy in Grease after Debbie Gibson finished.

She's seen as a joke by many but invested her money wisely and has a comfortable life, coming out of retirement for Pride events and the odd theatre gig.

Don't YouTube Sonia's recent live performances. It's all very Baby Jane.

I was pleasantly surprised by this.

It's a shame that Sonia's version of The Greatest Love Of All from Reborn In The USA hasn't made its way onto YouTube. The performance that sparked the long standing Dollar feud. "You're a nasty piece a werk!".

From memory even Davina McCall was taken aback by Sonia's performance and said something like "How can such a big voice come from such a little person"

The song at R146 would make a good Eurovision entry.

"Greatest Love of All" is a dogshit song.

The SAW thing didn’t work so well for poor Laura Branigan. I wonder why they didn’t wind up producing the whole album.

Because they were only occasional hitmakers in the States. The Donna Summer album didn't do all that well even with the sizeable hit single attached.

Charlie Brooker had this to say about Sonia on Reborn In The USA

[quote]Jesus Christ. Astonishingly she possesses a powerful singing voice but like a nuclear bomb in the hands of a madman, that's not a good thing. During a nightmareish rendition of The Greatest Love Of All she shuddered, howled and shook her fists, like Shirley Temple in a remake of The Exorcist".

The aftermath is on YouTube.

It’s because of them late 80s and early 90s pop sounds so crap, mostly because lots of other producers of conveyor belt pop tried to imitate their sound.

The album with Donna summer was the pinnacle of their career, quality wise. Most of their albums include lesser filler songs and a few hits, even the Kylie and Rick Astley albums. But Another Place And Time every song is a catchy banger. Bananarama's WOW album almost meets that standard as well.

[quote]Shirley Temple in a remake of The Exorcist

Hot.

Donna's was the most out of this world voice that SAW worked with but I don't think her heart was in it. She even refused to make a video for one of the singles. The Princess album is better. Princess really put those doormat lyrics across as if they were sincere poetry,

[quote]The album with Donna summer was the pinnacle of their career, quality wise. But Another Place And Time every song is a catchy banger

I mean the album featured a song previously recorded by Princess and Mandy Smith but I mostly agree

The Only One is a standout SAW song. It's such an Abba tribute I can almost hear Donna singing in a Swedish accent.

Does anyone have a scan of the alternate Donna cover. It's like the link but it has no song text or barcode.

Lonnie Gordon's "If I Have to Stand Alone" was almost as good as Donna's album, maybe even more consistent. That's because it was tailor-made for Donna, and captures her sound even more exactly. But Donna "could not find the time" to make the trip to London to record it.

Princess was a very good album, but not every song was great. "Say I'm Your Number One" is a classic, but theres definitely some filer there. Its well known that Donna Summer hated working with SAW and refused to do a second album with them even though her record company commissioned it. The song "Happening All Over Again" was written for that album, but when she refused to work with SAW it was given to Lonnie Gordon, who had a big UK hit with it. Donna Summer never had another US hit after that, ever.

But whether her heart was in it or not, she sounds incredible on it and the songs are almost all single-worthy . A recent Guardian UK article listing her top 20 songs ever left out any track from this album and readers in the comments were livid, rightfully claiming anti-SAW snobbery on the part of the critic who left out "This TIme I Know Its For Real" and "Loves About To Change My Heart"", a cult classic among fans and great SAW production

With the exception of Beyond Your Wildest Dreams the Lonnie songs wouldn't have suited Donna.

Lonnie was in your face with a "Get out of my life you piece of shit" attitude.

Hazell Dean recorded Better Off Without You after Lonnie and while she does her best with a lesbian angst vibe it's not a touch on Lonnie threatening to Bobbitt her guy.

I agree, r156, "The Only One" was another awesome song on that album.

Its hard to even listen to Lonnie Gordon because she has such a different type of voice, its much edgier and "black" sounding and not particularly unique, whereas while Donna could capture an edge if she liked, she also had such a smooth beautiful tone, a true one of a kind instrument on her.

If Tracy could do "Happenin' All Over Again," I don't see why Donna Summer couldn't. Didn't Sybil and Lonnie do a couple of the same songs?

*Tracy Shaw

I think the Princess album succeeds more than Another Place and Time because it predated SAW becoming overly peppy. In one of the music videos, you can see Donna take the piss out of that vibe with one of the dance moves she does. Donna was a 40 something who had no interest in being Debbie Gibson, Robin Sparkles or... Sonia.

The fact that Donna Summer wasn't that into it doesn't negate the quality of the music. But I do thing that "I Don't Wanna Get Hurt" was a poor choice for second single because it is written from the perspective of a teenage girl and sounds a bit silly sung by Donna, whereas most of the other songs have a more timeless, if not mature, quality tha tmakes them more believable and less juvenile sounding, even though the energy level is high.

"If It Makes You Feel Good" is hardly mature.

Speaking of Abba sounding SAW productions, their 1993 Bananarama album "Please Yourself" was an homage to the ABBA sound in many ways, especially fantastic lead single "Movin On". An underrated gem, the album never got released in the US.

I said they had a more timeless if NOT mature quality.

"Timeless" is a tricky term when discussing pop music. Are Adele's often flavorless productions timeless? They are less tied to their time than most pop productions. I guess "timeless" is a synonym for "classic."

[quote] Was it because the music was considered too cheesy

Yes.

Just look at Robbie Williams.

Kylie had a US hit with The Locomotion, so I don't think "too cheesy" explains it. Britney built her brand on cheese. The jailbait stuff was simply put on top.

I agree r169, its tricky indeed, what I meant to convey by timeless was not that the songs were timeless in relation to pop music production styles over time, but that relative to "I Don't Wanna Get Hurt" which feels very specifically pubescent, the other themes, though simple, feel like they have more general affirmations of love and heartache that one might feel during any time of ones life.

In that case, I think "universal" would have been a better word.

Robbie William's music wasn't particularly cheesy. I think as a personality he was a CHEEKY Brit which doesn't always translate to the US masses. But a lot of his music was heartfelt and sincere.

[quote]Kylie's music from SAW aside from most of the singles and several album tracks wasn't very good. While the critics were mixed to somewhat positive her SAW albums (with the exception of Let's Get To It) were commercially successful.

"Let's Get To It" was the curtain draw for SAW. They were burnt out, and in a reversal of fortune were now the ones trying to keep Kylie happy. It was her fourth SAW album but really it was her sophomore mature album.

She was desperate to move on. Embarrassed by the early work. To keep her, they had to loosen up and expand their sound (NOT the way they were used to doing things), so they added funk, R&B, house, big band, and a Kylie version of Justify My Love: "Finer Feelings".

The US label made a mistake by naming Robbie's debut US album "The Ego Had Landed." Americans enjoy a big ego but they'd rather it belong to an American (c.f. Donald Trump).

Kylie's pop instincts deserted her for quite a few years. "Confide In Me" is great but the DeConstruction era is lacking stellar material.

R161 I agree Lonnie was raw but those were Donna's songs. SAW would never bury a track that had marketable value, it gets passed along. Those songs that ended up be released by Lonnie would have been sent to Donna months before so she could learn the lines in the car, at home etc.

All the artistic decisions would have been complete and final. They would have the tracks finished with vocal guides, have done remixes, probably even the cover art and built sets for the video before Donna even put a foot inside the studio. All she would have had to have done go in and is sing karaoke-style for four or five days. Not judging her on what happened at all.

Lonnie can smooth out her sound as required. Her visual presentation worked against her.

If the SAW album had sold better, I have no doubt that Donna would have gone back for more.

Agreed, R149, I was kind of surprised that “Shattered Glass” didn’t do better for Laura Branigan, considering how hot SAW was at the time.

I do have a special place in my heart for some of the good SAW acts like Mel and Kim. Even Divine and Dead or Alive. Not so much for the later cheesy stuff but the classics were really good fun for clubbing and club prep on Saturday nights.

Laura Branigan singing her non-hit SAW tune in front of The Queen. I loved Laura, but jeez, she was always so awkward on stage.

All their songs sound identical to me. They're so formulaic and redundant.

[quote]I agree [R169], its tricky indeed, what I meant to convey by timeless was not that the songs were timeless in relation to pop music production styles over time, but that relative to "I Don't Wanna Get Hurt" which feels very specifically pubescent, the other themes, though simple, feel like they have more general affirmations of love and heartache that one might feel during any time of ones life.

I Don't Wanna Get Hurt is a great song - it would have made a perfect second single for Sonia though, not Donna. And Sonia's Listen To Your Heart is a great song that would have fitted perfectly on the Enjoy Yourself album.

Sinitta's I Don't Believe In Miracles is an underrated classic. I always thought SAW might have written it for Mel & Kim. Mel & Kim would have been perfect for A A Handful Of Promises. Wasted on those whiny queens.

If Donna had recorded a second album with SAW I think the track listing would have been something like this

1. Happenin' All Over Again

2. Beyond Your Wildest Dreams

3. Another Night

4. One Thing Leads To Another

5. Make It Easy On Me

6. If I Have To Stand Alone

7. Made In Heaven

8. That's What Love Can Do

9. Secrets

10. Better Off Without You

Also when it comes to recycling old SAW songs Hazell Dean is the undisputed queen of green.

She recorded Turn It Into Love after Kylie, More Than Words Can Say after Mel & Kim AND Carol Spatchcock, Better Off Without You after Lonnie and Can't Help The Way That I Feel after Sonia.

Laura Branigan's high kick was underrated. And the convulsive head shake at the climax... Inspired!

Hazell should have recorded a Jason Donovan songbook album.

Hazell actually recorded Turn It Into Love first.

[quote]Hazell actually recorded Turn It Into Love first.

LIES!!!!!

[quote]As explained in notes contained on her 2012 greatest hits compilation, Evergreen, Hazell was at PWL studios recording "Maybe" when she was played a selection of songs being recorded for Kylie's debut album. "Turn it into Love" stood out, and she liked the song so much, she asked Pete Waterman to let her record her own version of the song. Waterman obliged and it was eventually released as the lead into the release of Dean's second Stock Aitken Waterman-produced album Always in October 1988.

I'm aware of those liner notes. Hazell had nothing to do with them. Why she wouldn't check that shit off on her own record is beyond me.

I've heard Hazell do an tv interview where she says she heard Kylie's version and asked to record it when it became apparent she wasn't going to release it in the UK.

I'm sure Haze will cover it in the SAW podcast, which will be in 2026 by the time the Australian gays get around to late 88.

I'm really looking forward to "Searchin' 2026 (Almighty Remix)" being performed at the Peterborough Mardi Gras!

I'd be interested to see that TV interview because she's said the opposite to me, to my face, in a personal conversation. I'm not calling anyone a liar, I'm just genuinely confused right now.

R16 dug up the worst SAW ever and a song that pretty much ruined their careers.

Did they have careers to ruin?

I always thought Hazell Dean was the in-house demo singer and some of those were eventually released on albums.

A technical clarification for R175. Let's Get To It is not SAW. Aitken left the trio earlier in the year and only Stock and Waterman produced it. The loss of Aitken is palpable in the final product.

Not quite an in-house demo singer. She was Pete Waterman's go-to for a long time when he had a particular song or musical idea he wanted to try out in the marketplace. Probably due to his respect for her voice and loyalty from the fact she had their first top 10 hit, back when she was already a star and they were nobodies.

There was a rumour for years that one of the Reynolds Girls had died in childbirth. Whatever they're up to now they've done as well a job at maintaining anonymity as Maxine Carr.

There was a story that they were unhappy with the songs PWL offered them after I'd Rather Jack so they set up their own record label and released Get Real. I can't think why it wasn't a hit. Such a banger with soulful vocals.

They were talented producers. They had signature sound but they did try to give each artist under their belt a distinctive identity. Also if you listen closely, their production style is complex and lyrics are pretty clever. It also depended on how smart and talented the artists they were working with were. Rick Astley and Donna Summer were real singers so they could elevate the material to a higher level.

They wrote a song for Rolling Stones underage sex scandal victim Mandy Smith called "I Just Can't Wait".

Laura Branigan was awful. The song and performance above are equally abysmal. Never liked her, and she copied Donna Summer's vocal style.

[quote]They wrote a song for Rolling Stones underage sex scandal victim Mandy Smith called "I Just Can't Wait".

Of all the fucked up things about Mandy Smith's relationship with Bill Wyman (they started "dating" when she was 13 and they had sex when she was 14) for her to record that song - written specifically for her with those lyrics!!! - aged 16 was just vile.

She suffered horrible health problems as a result of being put on the pill by her mother at such a young age, and her mother went on to marry Bill Wyman's son, so Mandy's step son was also her step father.

Eh... recording the song was the most vile part of that whole sordid business? Weren't Mandy and her sister accused of misappropriating contributions to their charity?

Mandy Smith never got over being sexually taken advantage of at 14. She said herself that after she married that creep it all hit her and she couldn't have sex with him because it felt so wrong. Her story is not a titillating one it's straight up child abuse. She never got over it and is still very fragile. She has been unable hold down a normal job.

The most unabashedly gay one is my favorite in the SAW oeuvre:

How did Bill Wyman get away with it molesting Mandy? I heard her story again in the podcast and I couldn't believe it.

Two Australian gay guys have a podcast with interviews from lesser known singers and employees of SAW. Not the world's most polished podcast but it has the energy and interest that only fan-produced podcasts possess.

I don't know about "lesser known". They're going through the songs in chronological order and have had most of the major artists on so far; Princess, Mel & Kim, Hazell Dean. Mike Stock has been on. True, Bananarama were a no show. But anyone who knows about them fully expected that.

Funny to listen to Matt Stock denying the melody of I Heard A Rumour was stolen from Michael Fortunati's Give Me Up.

You can literally sing the lyrics to Rumour over Give Me Up

But who would though? An Italian?

Because we enjoy a good laugh at their expense, R32. The same way they look down their noses at us.

It was fascinating to hear in this podcast that SAW didn't have a clue who Kylie was when she turned up to record, they weren't expecting her, and they wrote and recorded her hit in 40 minutes while she was sitting in the waiting room. She didn't want to work with them again after that. But obviously she did!

Rick Astley was their “water boy” before his record hit it big.

There was a short Princess PWL video promo with a drop date of June 15 (or thereabouts) showing up on screen. Is her debut album being reissued again?

The Princess project has been "postponed".

Rick Astley was their teas boy, but he was being developed as a singer the whole time. He wasn;'t just "the help" who they turned into a star.

[Quote] The Princess project has been "postponed".

Do you know anything else about it? I hope they at least gather the main long versions of the album tracks together on one disc.

It wasn't a re-release it was some kind of gig.

[Quote] It wasn't a re-release it was some kind of gig.

And she used music and visuals from her first album to promote a contemporary gig? Or rather, her brother did? Lame.

Her brother's management has always been a source of discussion.

A source of failure...

There's no doubt that had she stayed with SAW, who were just on the verge of mega success, she would be a much richer woman today.

If you ever heard the camp crap she did with Simon Cowell you'd know it wasn't beneath her.

Princess signed with Simon Cowell?

She did some gay crap for him before SAW.

[Quote] There's no doubt that had she stayed with SAW, who were just on the verge of mega success, she would be a much richer woman today.

I don't know about that. Mel & Kim were blaggers more than singers but they were hugely charismatic. Princess probably would have lost out to them for material. She may have scored another hit but I'd wager she'd have beena another Hazell Dean - maybe she'd have had another big hit, but probably not much more than that.

I like "Let The Night Take The Blame." Princess sings it very well.

The production on that track is cheap and dreadful. Cowell was obsessed with making cheap nasty cynical gay records. He clearly had a low opinion of that audience and it showed.

[Quote] cheap nasty cynical gay records

Robson & Jerome?

Cheap nasty cynical records sounds more like Ian Levine. Cowell is an equal opportunity purveyor of cynical records.

TV tie-in crap aside, Cowell only ever had one genuine success and that was Sinitta. He's never stopped slagging off her music since calling her pop career "appalling". Everything he's ever done has been pure cynicism and he very clearly hates the people who buy his music. He sees the stuff he markets as utter shit and the audience as scum.

Was Simon Cowell not behind Westlife?

If he was he should be fucking ashamed. And it would only back up the cynicism argument.

Yes, but Westlife are infinitely more successful than Sinitta...

[quote]There's no doubt that had she stayed with SAW, who were just on the verge of mega success, she would be a much richer woman today.

Sinitta became quite bitter that she was more or less dropped by SAW when they focused on Kylie and Jason. Pete Hammond produced Right Back Where We Started From which was a bigger hit than many SAW records in 1989, and she worked with Ralf Rene Maue who had produced big hits for The London Boys.

She only ever worked with SAW on 5 songs. Four were singles and Who's Gonna Catch You was an album track that Mel & Kim had had on their FLM album just 9 months earlier.

Those early comedy records were a millstone for her.

R233 and smallpox was more successful than athlete's foot.

The podcast right now is in 88, the period when SAW could basically fart into a microphone and get a global number one with it. They could even have a hit with an old Ann Murray flop, Who's Leaving Who. They overdid it by 89 and that was their downfall, too much of a good thing.

I did laugh at the gays commenting on Hazell's "glamourous" makeover for Who's Leaving Who. They mentioned the green dress on the Hitman and Her performance, which Hazell used for the Love Pains video.

The stylists basically delesbianed her. They turned her mullet into a ponytail and put some make up on her.

She looked like a different person in that era.

Re: Mandy Smith - semiregular PWL backing singer Suzanne Rhatigan spilled the tea on the "Journey Through SAW" podcast that she ghosted Mandy's voice for all those tracks. She's not bitter though. (To be honest, I'm not sure I'd want anyone to know I did the lead vocal for those songs!)

The vocals on the finished Mandy records aren;'t dreadful - besides Got To Be Certain. I think that one's really Mandy, with no help.

[quote] "Stock Aitken Waterman"

It's a shame they didn't also open a law firm.

Bananarama's "I Heard A Rumour" is a rip off of Michael Fortunati's "Give Me Up".

Stock insists it isn't...

Stock seemed to get the shits when confronted about that song on the podcast. He started getting technical and snappy. It's clearly a rip off of the Italian record.

What happened to Matt Aitken?

Stock is also a QAnon wingnut. I'd take what he says with a huge rock of salt.

That's very sad to see.

Hazell Dean complaining about her 4th biggest hit on the SAW podcast was typical miserable.

SAW were very generous to give her one of Kylie’a album tracks and still she complained.

Not surprised they called it a day with her LOL

It's kind of a mystery why she got so many chances ,after half a dozen flops over a number of years between hits. I guess the record industry was more cashed up or forgiving back then.

Fascinating new episode on “I’d Rather Jack” and the Reynolds Girls

It's amazing the Reynolds Girls have never been found. You'd think they'd at least come forward and complain about what happened to them. Pete Waterman wasn't exactly gracious to them in the press. I bet Linda is thrilled she quit school to do that song.

The Donna Summer episode was very interesting, hearing her talk from the grave about the Another Place & Time album.

Jason Donovan cannot sing.

Jason could cut it on stage, he's had a good career there. His vocals are much more suited to things like "Joseph" (where he excelled) than pop music. He didn't have the range to nail most of the SAW material. A lot of it was far too high for him.

The recent SAW documentary is very good. It should still be on YouTube (although slightly cut). The parts about Mel and Kim, Kylie and Donna Summer are insightful. They really loved Mel & Kim and Mel's death still affects them, especially Pete. Kylie pretty much admitted she was a puppet at first - showing up to sing and then going home. When she wanted more control, she really proved that she was going to transcend SAW.

When Kylie left SAW and had total control, she came out with one album where she wrote virtually nothing, which produced one very good top ten hit, but then underperformed commercially and failed to recoup for the label. She followed that up with an album she wrote extensively on, and that was an out and out flop. She signed to a new label and re-embraced the pure pop that had made her very famous. Who was right? Kylie or her much reviled first producers?

I don't think they are reviled - at least not by Kylie. She is very fond of them and appreciative of what they did for her and helped her. But Kylie never worked with them again after leaving them. And Impossible Princess was a flop album but it's also a great album.

She continues to write on her albums so she still won in the end.

Like so many people, Kylie now understands and appreciates the greatness of SAW. Around the time she left she wasn't so clear on that. She publicly slated "What Kind of Fool" as embarrassing and also criticised their process in a few interviews. Although in relatively diplomatic Kylie terms.

R238: She does look good there.

R254: Kylie is the only one who survived in the immediate aftermath of SAW.

Rick Astley has endured long term, but he had a multi decade hiatus, so that's quite an unusual story.

The Journey Through Stock Aitken Waterman podcast had its best episodes yet covering Better The Devil You Know.

Excellent interviewing and editing that managed to balance both "sides" in the dispute between a creative team who didn't want to change a winning formula and an artist and her team who wanted to grow and progress.

Kylie comes out of it so well and was lucky to have Terry Blamey on her side. And what a stroke of luck getting Dannii's boyfriend to direct the video.

David Howells at PWL was right in highlighting what had happened to Tiffany and Debbie Gibson but he was nasty in his dismissiveness of the 1994 and 1997 albums.

[Quote] Sinitta became quite bitter that she was more or less dropped by SAW

Shitta?

I liked the work SAW did with Laura Branigan in 1987. "Shattered Glass".