Kathleen Hanna

She looks like trash

I'm amazed these people ever took themselves seriously.

Sellout. Super annoying now, seems extremely self centered. Loved her as young gay teen though.

A lot of the acclaimed rock music of the 90s doesn't really hold up today and seems ridiculously overblown now. As a whole, 80s alternative has aged better than 90s alternative.

I’ve always like Courtney Love a lot more.

She’s the epitome of what so many gem x women are. She took herself way too seriously and ended up a lame Karen.

The era of "Rebel Girl"--the brashness and exuberance of the early 1990's--turned shrill, sanctimonious, humorless (not just due to Kathleen Hanna, but the instability of Courtney Love and the off-putting hauteur of Kim Gordon from Sonic Youth--never a real friend to women, imho).

It's a real shame, because it didn't have to be that way. I look at Allison from Bratmobile, or the other members of Bikini Kill, Tobi and Kathi, and think THEY were the people you'd really want to hang out with. Early Riot Grrrl was funny and wild, and, sadly, it totally ate itself.

I think Kathleen's whole act was more or less captured by the most obnoxious elements of the campus left/critical theory crowd, and she handed it over, as if to assuage her guilt and self-loathing for selling out by marrying a Beastie Boy. Chronic lame disease on top of chronic Lyme.

After watching "The Punk Singer," I was also dismayed to learn that while her song lyrics appropriated the rhetoric of sexual abuse survivorship, to the point that she herself led people to believe that she herself was a survivor (a powerful position, as you can imagine), that wasn't actually the case. She admits as much in the film, iirc.

I’ve liked a lot of her music

I read some long piece about her.... or maybe it was a whole book? Maybe it was even a documentary.

ANYWAY, I don’t know her music but it seems like she did go through very specific periods that had different artistic visions behind them. There’s one era that purposely sounds like it was recorded in her bedroom with very simple technology.... and something about that intimacy/naivety really captures what she was going for, and predates the whole YouTube “home invasion” of anyone being able to be their own pop star.

I thought that trajectory of her work seemed compelling. She’s not just some girl who they found at a mall and micromanaged/synthesized.

That first Le Tigre record was fantastic - hugely fun and entertaining and at least as good as anything Courtney Love came up with. I never listened to Bikini Kill.

Haven't paid the slightest attention to her in probably 20 years so I have no idea if she's a "sellout" but it's such a lame-ass term that I doubt it.

Why is she a sell-out for marrying Ad-Rock? I can't take anyone seriously who thinks that.

I just think she’s a shrill Karen. I have no opinion of him I’m not too familiar with him. She certainly looks Karenish

R11 because he's a privileged white guy who lives a rich NYC life.

R13, who cares? He had a successful music career and got rich. Most entertainers want to get famous and rich.

...And because the Beastie Boys released that song "Girls" and appropriated rap music from the Black community during the very early years of hip hop. And so she was a beneficiary of the same white elitism and appropriation that she takes other people to task for in her work.

[quote] And so she was a beneficiary of the same white elitism and appropriation that she takes other people to task for in her work.

Ahh, yes, the power of transference. Amazing!

Oh please. The Beastie Boys are respected within the hip hop community. Ad-Rock deserves his success. Again, I can't take anyone who believes Kathleen Hanna is a sell-out for marrying Ad-Rock seriously.

(From 2009) Courtney Love on Kathleen Hanna:

ivehad my fair share of fights with artists, i mean Kathleen :Black Card” Horowitz OOPS did i tell a big secret? you mean ypou didmnt KNPW she had a HUGE bunch of property? a Centurion card and summers in the Hamptons? oops…well lets just pretend shes Julie ruin

Courtney was, I suspect, addled when she wrote it, but the point sticks.

Personally, I couldn't care less if Kathleen has a centurion card or a house in the Hamptons, but I would take her class warrior posturing with a major grain of salt.

[quote]R18 Courtney was, I suspect, addled when she wrote it, but the point sticks.

Maybe, if one can decipher it.

Courtney Love is about as stable as a bag lady... so I wouldn’t look to her for insight, either into herself or others.

[quote]R18 Courtney was, I suspect, addled when she wrote it, but the point sticks.

Maybe, if one can decipher it.

Courtney Love is about as stable as a bag lady... so I wouldn’t look to her for insight, either into herself or others.

Courtney is who she is. This chick always seemed pretentious.

Courtney on Kathleen Hanna, from 2005:

"I still don't like her. She bugs me. Kathleen Hanna runs that ship [her relationship with Beastie Boy Adam Horovitz] in a way that is far more Yoko [Ono] than I would be. I envision her being in a decked-out loft with a little corner for a desk that look like it belongs in a poor person's East Village apartment, with her battered-women's stuff and her Ms. magazines and all her communication with leading feminists."

Courtney ripped the riot grrrrls/Evergreen State College a new asshole with this song—the mockery is scathing.

Is there anyone Courtney Love hasn’t trashed?

Courtney Love is beyond redemption. Or comprehension.

Has she even done anything of note during the past decade? Haven’t thought about her since 2003, at the latest.

The music of that period was very forgettable and the infighting tiresome.

[quote]R26 Has she even done anything of note during the past decade? Haven’t thought about her since 2003, at the latest.

Courtney, or Kathleen?

R26 she cannot type worth a shit, but she is hilarious, and probably more intelligent than Hanna. I know she was active on AOL in the '90s and would post similar massive, rambling essays full of typographic errors, name dropping, and oblique references to things that you'd only really understand if you knew about her and her life story. I find her fascinating--a maelstrom of insanity with a slight dash of down-to-earthness that can be endearing. She's human, and she never pretends she isn't.

Meant R25

Wasn’t her kid taken away because she was a junkie? Then she swore to kill who ever ratted her out?

Classy. She’s a pig.

Courtney Love has taken over a thread about Kathleen Hanna which answers the OPs original question, absolutely no one thinks anything about her.

[quote]because he's a privileged white guy who lives a rich NYC life.

[quote]He had a successful music career and got rich.

As much as I hate the word, wasn’t he somewhat privileged before Beastie Boys? His father wasn’t exactly a nobody.

I din’t think Hanna is a sellout.

[quote]Courtney is who she is. This chick always seemed pretentious.

Exactly.

[quote]Is there anyone Courtney Love hasn’t trashed?

No, but that doesn’t mean everything she says is wrong.

[quote]"Courtney Love's in dire need of attention right now."

WHET Kurt Loder?

I remember that VMA's moment, and thinking what a great, sleek on-it look had Madonna with that Ursula Andress getup, and what a bummer that Courtney had to crash it.

Rewatching, I see Courtney as troubled and sloppy but oddly sympathetic. That was, what, a year after Kurt killed himself? She gave good TV, back when that kind of thing seemed to matter. For a mentally ill, drug addicted, widowed single mother craving a kind of otherworldly limelight, she was likable.

R36 here again. Meanwhile, this is Kathleen in last November's issue of Pitchfork:

"I was assaulted by a male feminist when I was in Bikini Kill, the day before we moved to D.C., in 1991. It was literally three hours after I finished [the zine] Bikini Kill 2, which was called Girl Power. I’m still processing that violence."

The Courtney v.s. Kathleen antagonism is one sided. Kathleen couldn't care less, whereas Courtney can't let it go.

I think that Courtney resented her band and herself being lumped into the riot grrrl movement, which she always considered a media driven label, and she may have personalized it in the form of Kathleen, the most recognizable person within riot grrrl. I think Courtney resented the riot grrrl bands as being the presentable face of feminism at that time, whereas someone like Courtney, was not considered feminist enough, for whatever reason.

Ultimately, it feels like Courtney's beef is that she hates being considered less authentic and feminist than Kathleen Hanna - who never claimed perfection to begin with. In my less charitable moments, I think Courtney knows it gets her attention to be so antagonistic towards other female musicians, attention she wouldn't otherwise get.

I thought that the Courtney disliked Hanna because Kurt Cobain had been in love with Hanna a few years earlier. The Nirvana song, "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was named by Hanna. After she and Kurt had sex, her "Teen Spirit" deodorant (a late 80s / early 90s product) had rubbed off on Kurt, and she teased him about it, "Kurt smells like Teen Spirit". I think she left Kurt, and Courtney was his rebound.

So of course, Courtney trashes Hanna frequently. Just like Courtney trashes everyone she envies while trying to emulate: Madonna, Billy Corgan, Tori Amos.

Adam was always a corny, rich Jew. His success is undeserved. I'm glad he ended up with Kathleen to drive him crazy.

I would have never seen, in a million years, Dave Grohl and Courtney making up. It's still weird thinking about it.

this thread makes me miss the mid 90s so much.

R39 I didn't know that Kurt and Kathleen dated, or that Kathleen inspired the "teen spirt" song. You're probably right that romantic rivalry and jealousy is the reason for Courtney's dislike of Kathleen, among other petty bullshit.

Another Scorpio

I don't think Kathleen dated Kurt—they were just friends. It is true that Kathleen inspired the popular Nirvana song by scrawling "Kurt Smells Like Teen Spirit" on a wall in his apartment, though. Kurt did date Tobi Vail, one of the other girls in Kathleen's band. IIRC, Courtney has never really attacked Tobi, only Kathleen. This really went public in 1995, when Sonic Youth/Kim Gordon brought Kathleen along with them on the Lollapalooza tour, which Hole was also a part of. Backstage at a show in the Columbia River Gorge in Washington, Courtney allegedly heard Kathleen make a joke about Frances Bean sticking herself with a heroin needle in a closet or something. By all account, Courtney proceeded to throw candy, a lit cigarette, and ultimately, her fist, at Kathleen's face. It's impossible to know if Kathleen actually made the joke or if Courtney created it as an excuse to attack her, but the altercation did happen. The next day, Courtney performed onstage without her guitar, and her arm in a compression wrap.

[quote]R38 I think Courtney knows it gets her attention to be so antagonistic towards other female musicians, attention she wouldn't otherwise get.

Exactly. Bitch needs to finally grow the fuck up and stay in her lane... which I thought was in England, where she slurs in a whine about how much of her dead husband’s money she was supposedly swindled out of (?)

what about her sisters?

Kurt didn't date Kathleen - he dated Tobi Vail, before Courtney. I'm surprised Courtney never went after Tobi, given that she went literal/physical apeshit on Mary Lou Lord, who dated (not only) Kurt (but also Elliott Smith). I hate to assess a female artist on the male artists she slept with, but damn.

I would guess that she held off on Kathleen for the same reason that she didn't (as far as I know) try to physically assault Kim Gordon or Madonna - they'd probably sue her (and they had more credibility than she did in musical circles).

Melissa auf der Maur--who also briefly dated Dave Grohl *while* she was in Hole and he was actively feuding with Courtney--has been publicly very sympathetic toward Courtney and her various life struggles. This generosity impressed me, because I think she probably had one of the less-desirable gigs in rock music, playing backup to Courtney very gingerly and coolly so as to avoid the volatile wrath.

None of which means that Kathleen Hanna isn't pretentious and obnoxious. She's a caricature of the 90's-era critical theory-style feminism that I believe not only sabotaged itself, but the whole political left. I was thinking that Kathleen Hanna was kind of like a mashup of Andrea Dworkin and Joan Jett, but I think that kind of mashup could be pretty cool even today.

It's easy to reject and ridicule feminism when you think that's what it's all about.

I'm just surprised that the member of Le Tigre with a moustache still uses female pronouns.

R48 hits the nail on the head. Kathleen does, in many ways, epitomize a certain kind of leftist campus feminism, and there are numerous connections between the kind of leftist "activism" we see today and the brand of activism that riot grrrrl was attempting to drudge (mainly at the Evergreen State College, which is, sorry to say, a joke of an institution).

I remember reading once that Courtney Love's main criticism of riot grrrrl and all of its purveyors was that, when given some attention, they entirely shut out the media and threw a conniption fit about the public taking interest in what they were doing. I think that Courtney's point (and a valid one) was, if you're making all this noise in the name of saving women, why not try to spread it to a larger audience? Peddling DIY zines and staging punk shows at your campus student union is great and all, but why make feminism an underground movement? It makes it appear as though riot grrrl was more concerned with being an exclusive club for the cool kids—a vain and flawed attempt at presenting oneself as socially conscious.

R50 That's an interesting take. I never saw the riot grrrl movement as not wanting to be spread to a larger audience or be an exclusive club. I remember feeling that they didn't want their message to be misrepresented by the mainstream media, but not so much a wholesale rejection of it. At the time, as you probably well remember, it seemed that there were few avenues to present your views/music/whatever in a way that didn't feel it was soon to be coopted and changed by the mainstream media. Today, it's so different with social media, etc. I remember groups like Bikini Kill and Fugazi being wary of the mainstream press, and often, with good reason.

As I remember riot grrrl and grunge, it was all about DIY from music to media to image. There were very few examples of women playing in bands (and even after "The Year Punk Broke," females were often relegated to the role of dumb/sexualized bass player, one small step up from van groupie). Very rare indeed for women to control the band, write the songs, drive the bus.

It was exciting to see musicians in control of their own image: not in thrall to a producer or a record company (saying, in fact, f*ck you to the whole corporate music establishment). Total control. Wearing filthy thrift-store clothes or ironic t-shirts, if that's what they wanted to wear (because it's all they could afford).

When Bikini Kill said "Girls to the front!" at their concerts, they were inviting females to take back the traditionally wild/often violent mosh pit and jump in, without fear. And if a guy tried to assault or harass you, you called it out loud, ridiculed it, lampooned it, wrote wild songs about it.

I do not believe that it was ever supposed to be about luxuriating in a permanent state of gender victimhood and high-semiotic debates, but parts of it (like the part called Kathleen Hanna) apparently went that way.

And the rest went off the rails with the sad, druggy spectacle of Courtney Love, which put an end to the idea that a riot grrl was someone "in control" of her image, or of anything else. I think today, Courtney comes across more clearly as a person with mental health and substance abuse issues that became part of the zeitgeist, not a shrewd manager of her own image.

I read Patty Schemel's memoir, "Hit So Hard", last winter (a better title would have been "Live Through This," but I'm guessing THAT wasn't gonna get the Love seal of approval), and it was really a bleak tale. She was Kurt's drug connection during his last, long downward spiral, and ended up selling her ass to men on the streets of L.A. (though she is openly gay) to support her crack and heroin habit (I think she was technically still in Hole when this was going on).

RIP Riot Grrl.

Also, Kat Bjelland (from Babes in Toyland, the *other* riot grrl act that we haven't mentioned), has had a lot of issues with mental health and substances. I believe she's been diagnosed with schizophrenia, and was institutionalized for a period of time after the band broke up.

"When Bikini Kill said 'Girls to the front!' at their concerts, they were inviting females to take back the traditionally wild/often violent mosh pit and jump in, without fear."

...and now, according to the above interview, she won't say it because she doesn't want to "misgender" and hurt some straight male's fee-fee's. She can't even see what privileged, First-World bullshit that is.

An ironic thing, I suppose, is that Kathleen and Courtney are each enabled in their respective obnoxious behaviors by the money of more successful men.

In that way, they've turned out quite similar. Maybe that's why they don't get along.

Oh god, Kat Bjelland. I remember that mess from the old days at 1st Ave in Minneapolis. The good old days, truly.

R53 Babes in Toyland! Who could forget them? They rocked hard.

R57 Kat Welland, musically speaking, was 10x more talented than Courtney and Kathleen combined--she could shred on guitar for real--but ultimately, overall, Hole was a better band than Babes in Toyland IMO (although I massively respect Kat as an instrumentalist; her guitar playing was truly unique).

Bjelland*

Sorry (15) but they didn’t “appropriate” anything. Music is for everyone. Rap artists all appreciate and revere Beastie Boys for their inventive style irregardless of their race. So Jimi Hendrix was “appropriating” white music for playing rock? Ridiculous statements like this cause more divisiveness in society than unity. A race didn’t create hairdos either. It’s usually regional not race based. Cornrows were created in humid and hot climates for hair to be neatly worn off the face whilst making a fashionable look for the wearer. The new woke police are killing the way we live. Beastie Boys are one of the most unique groups whose music changed lyrically as the members did personally. They used their personal growth to show their metamorphosis which is why they’re still as relevant today to all ages than when they began in the early 80s as a punk band. As for Hanna, her music was based solely on a movement in a time that needed it but it has very little need today. Most of the bands from the 90s sound dated musically compared to the 80s.

[quote] A lot of the acclaimed rock music of the 90s doesn't really hold up today and seems ridiculously overblown now. As a whole, 80s alternative has aged better than 90s alternative.

Well, Bikini Kill was a shit band like the rest of the self-identified Riot Grrrl crap. It was always more about politics, the scene, fashion, and identity than it was about songs. The actually-talented female musicians who existed outside that pathetic ghetto (PJ Harvey, Kim Deal, et al.) were quick to distance themselves from it, and they went on to have long, legitimate careers as musicians.

But it sounds like you just don’t like loud, aggro guitar music.

[quote] I would guess that she held off on Kathleen for the same reason that she didn't (as far as I know) try to physically assault Kim Gordon or Madonna

Why on earth would Love have ever physically assaulted Gordon or Madonna? She’s never had a serious, personal beef with them. With Hanna, it was indeed personal. I’m not defending crazy Courtney’s violence (though I do agree with earlier defenses in this thread of her character: she does speak some truth, and is occasionally down to earth in a weird way, and can be very funny, and Live Through This is a very good album). It’s just ridiculous to say the only reason she never assaulted Gordon or Madonna is because they’d sue her. Good god.

[quote]So Jimi Hendrix was “appropriating” white music for playing rock?

Didn’t rock music evolve from rock & roll (like Chuck Berry) which originated with jazz, gospel and rhythm & blues music? And wasn’t Hendrix influenced by people like Muddy Waters & BB King?

[quote] None of which means that Kathleen Hanna isn't pretentious and obnoxious. She's a caricature of the 90's-era critical theory-style feminism that I believe not only sabotaged itself, but the whole political left.

I agree with all this.

[quote] But it sounds like you just don’t like loud, aggro guitar music.

Nonsense. I love hard rock/rock. And lots of different music. Maybe I'm specifically thinking of the "alternative" 90s stuff that dominated MTV. Think stuff like Collective Soul, Better than Ezra, Bush, etc. That shit was horrible. 80s alternative was much better. And a lot of 90s groups that never became popular were good too.

[quote] As I remember riot grrrl and grunge, it was all about DIY from music to media to image.

Grunge was the mainstream/corporate media’s term for this new, moody, distorted electric guitar alternative music that came from Seattle, and it was applied to bands that resented the term and bands that didn’t even match the description, bands that were signed to major labels and came out of metal and vaguely classic rock-ish scenes. Taking all of that into consideration, Grunge as a genre or a scene barely existed as a definable thing, and certainly didn’t come with its own ethos the way Riot Grrrl did.

Riot Grrrl is an offshoot of punk, really nothing to do with bands that the media identified as grunge.

[quote] Also, Kat Bjelland (from Babes in Toyland, the *other* riot grrl act that we haven't mentioned)

Did Babes ever identify as part of Riot Grrrl? I would hope not. They didn’t seem to be part of that, in much the same way that Hole were not part of Riot Grrrl. The whole scene was really tiny as far as bands that got some national attention went. Seven Year Bitch was one, of I’m not mistaken; Huggy Bear was another.

And yes, poor Kat. Babes did a reunion tour five years ago and they played and sounded great, but KB was obviously worse for the wear. Very sad to see, because although she clearly dabbled in drugs in the early 90s (or maybe she more than ‘dabbled’), she looked far healthier than she does now. I don’t know if heroin or meth is her drug of choice, maybe it’s both, but I wish she could get help. She has a son who’s probably in his early 20s now (?). Lori Barbero very recently said in an audio interview that Kat couldn’t get up and walk ten feet to get her guitar the last time they tried to rehearse, which was maybe 4 years ago. I imagine her severe mental illness is a major roadblock for her, as far as wanting to get off drugs. She probably feels like she’s managing her illness with them.

Fontanelle is such a great record, and yes Kat is a bad-ass guitarist, way way better than C Love.

[quote] Nonsense. I love hard rock/rock. And lots of different music. Maybe I'm specifically thinking of the "alternative" 90s stuff that dominated MTV. Think stuff like Collective Soul, Better than Ezra, Bush, etc. That shit was horrible. 80s alternative was much better. And a lot of 90s groups that never became popular were good too.

Well, those bands are all corporate mainstream “alternative” bands that were on major labels. Watered-down “alternative” or indie rock for the masses. They were just regular, modern rock radio acts in the mid 90s.

When you wrote your first reply, it sounded like you preferred 80s New Wave style alternative, or the “second British Invasion” stuff. But maybe you mean R.E.M. or the Replacements? What do you mean by 80s Alternative?

If you’re comparing 90s “alternative” to 80s alternative (whatever that might be), it isn’t fair to judge the 90s by *the worst* of the post-Nirvana corporate Alternative/grunge acts of the mid- to late-90s. Alternative and indie rock bands in the first half of the decade were great—and I’m referring to the more indie & underground stuff that you’d find on college radio or MTV’s 120 Minutes, not the average major label acts that you’d hear on corporate modern rock radio.

R67, you're right, a lot of the first half of the 90s was so much better (For alternative). When i think 80s alternative, I think of early U2 (before the Joshua Tree), REM, Husker Du, The Replacements, the first Ninch Inch Nails album, etc. So many great bands. For whatever reason, I have never lumped in British New Wave with alternative.. But I love that stuff too, was just listening to Blue Monday ('88 version) this afternoon.

I find that whole early 90s era gross. Everyone looks filthy, doughy, and smelly.

what’s a ‘zine anyway? I was born in 1970 and was in college in 1990 but I don’t remember anyone selling them or really talking about them. Yet they’re frequently mentioned as a seminal part of early 90s alternative culture

PJ Harvey was, and still is, superior to all of these ladies.

r6 What is "gem x?"

R72 Xanthite.

Totally agree R71. She absolutely does whatever the fuck she wants, does not compromise, has never “sold out” or gotten lame—even if her last 3 albums are of no use to me (I only like her loud, aggro-guitar stuff), I still respect them for being pure artistic endeavors.

Courtney Love has openly worshipped PJ Harvey for decades now, which makes me take her semi-seriously because I know she has good taste.

R75 but she also hated Tori Amos....so it's a draw

Didn’t Tori Amos write a song about Courtney, “Professional Widow”, but then stated she didn’t know her at all and tried to back track about the song? I never understood the Tori Amos love, she’s a mediocre singer with tiresome songs.

Gah, I saw Tori Amos live in Kansas City in 1993! I was not a fan (and am still not), but my soon-to-be-ex-boyfriend at the time was. I can't describe it. She sat on that piano bench like someone trying to get a stealth orgasm from a seat at the back of the bus. The ladies in the audience were very into it, like a Christian youth rally.

I took a different off-ramp, never into the Lilith Fair scene.

I too have great respect for P.J. Harvey, and I think the dynamics between and around female musical artists, generally speaking, are less toxic in the U.K., Canada, and other places.

American women are groomed to hate, distrust and undermine each other, particularly in the male-dominated and male-worshipping music scene. Many hoped for better with Riot Grrl, which spectacularly failed to deliver, and was particularly disappointing for that reason.

R77, I think her song "The Waitress" was alos about Courtney too. I used to find Tori's music boring but lately, I really have a respect for her. I prefer her music to PJ Harvey or Bjork's now.

[quote] [R75] but she also hated Tori Amos....so it's a draw

Tori Amos is not like some universally beloved artist. She has a large cult following, that’s all. She isn’t exactly The Beatles or Dylan.

R79, I don’t know why people always mention Bjork, Amos, and Harvey in the same sentence, as if they have *anything* in common with each other musically. They’re 3 “weird women” artists who started in the 90s, and yes they posed for that Q magazine cover story—the pictures from which are very popular on social media—but I have never liked Bjork, and I only ever liked a handful of early Amos songs but haven’t intentionally listened to her in decades. Amos and Bjork aren’t even ‘rock’—whereas Harvey is mostly straight up down-and-dirty, bluesy noise-rock. Just completely different musical universes.

[quote] Tori Amos is not like some universally beloved artist. She has a large cult following, that’s all. She isn’t exactly The Beatles or Dylan.

Neither is PJ Harvey

PJ Harvey is more highly regarded by musicians and music critics than Tori Amos is, is all I was saying. The two are not exactly equal in that regard.

But more to the point, there’s just no reason to ever mention those two (plus Bjork) in the same sentence. It only happens because they’re women.

R80 you're right; but PJ is more highly regarded because her music is not an utter bore. Tori Amos is dreadful to my ears.

Now this is a fascinating story that I missed, about Babes in Toyland's brief 2015 reunion.

Some background: Much has transpired in the time between Babes in Toyland's initial split and their June 21 homecoming. Bjelland was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder and endured two divorces; Barbero drunkenly crashed her car into her garage and had a 63-pound box dropped on her at a local hardware store; and Herman, who jokingly refers to herself as "the Forrest Gump of social issues," was gang raped, rendered homeless, became addicted to crack, and was diagnosed with PTSD before bouncing back and making a name for herself as a writer.

Rough!

Also news to me was that the reunion was funded by 3 ex-Google employees, who pooled money together and started an LLC to fund the tour. Very inventive financing model.

I hadn’t thought about her for years, then I saw this on the TV. Yabba dabba doo, man.

R84 Jesus Christ, did someone put a curse on them? How can 3 people have so much bad luck!?

Ok, so Kathleen isn't a sellout because she married Ad-Rock, she's certainly a sellout due to that commercial R85 posted. Ewww. I get that the concept of "selling out" is quite antiquated in our culture, but that's commercial is lame as fuck.

I posted the commercial. Yeah, it’s terrible, but as a performer you gotta take that moment. She didn’t have to record any new material, song was in the can 15 years ago. Make that money. Get those clocks.

Wall clock.

Great article, R84. I wish more rich people would do interesting things with their money.

There was a New York Times article a few years ago that mentioned Ad-Rock having a young son, but nothing about Kathleen Hanna being the mother. I never heard another things about it.

— Mr. Baumbach had long thought about casting him. “I love Adam’s voice, I love his countenance — there’s something very dry about him,” he said. Earlier he’d considered him for “Greenberg,” another film starring Mr. Stiller. All three grew up in New York, the children of artistic parents. “There’s a sensibility that we all connect to,” Mr. Baumbach said, and shared cultural references. (Cookie Puss, a trippy Carvel ice cream cake that wound its way into the Beastie Boys debut single, looms large.) All are parents — Mr. Horovitz has a young son — and Mr. Baumbach, 45, was a longtime Beasties fan.—

I'd have married Ad-Rock too if given the chance.

Ad-Rock was by far the cutest Beastie Boy

How is she a sellout?

Bikini Kill was staunchly indie - they turned down major label offers.

Suck my left one!

R39 Kathleen would have a case for getting a song writing credit (very minimal though) for coming up with that phrase that was then used for a song. Even coming up with a song title is enough to come up with a song writing credit.

I love hearing fellow gays and lesbians talk about their love of alternative and underground music.

There's actually a Zine Store and 'Support Centre' in Melbourne.

Zines are still a thing.

They sell a cool zine about Bananarama

I think Kathleen stood up for women's rights by wanting women to have safe spaces away from transwomen - particularly not shared bathroom facilities.

R90 This article refers to "their" son, so take that as you will.

R7 Is Alison from Bratmobile gay?

I love Bilini Kill's music, but hearing Kathleen talk in interviews makes my skin crawl. Same way I love Black Flag but listening to Henry Rollins or Keith Morris talk makes me want to kill myself. Same with Dead Kenedys and Jello Biafra

Babes in Toyland, Hole and L7 weren't Riot Grrrls bands. Riot Grrrl was a name for small indie college female punk bands on local small independent labels in Olympia, Washington and in D.C. Bands like Bikini Kill, Bratmobile and Heavens to Betsy (the best band of that movement). By the time riot grrrl started happening, Bikini Kill, Hole and L7 already had few albums behind them, were signed to big major labels and were making videos for MTV

How does the point stick, R18? Are we pretending Courtney Love didn't have loads of money and didn't pursue fame?

R103 Courtney openly pursued fame and fortune, and has never claimed otherwise. The crisis of her career has been wanting to maintain her punk roots while still harvesting a mainstream appeal. Kathleen, on the other hand, was all politics—the music she made was merely a vessel for her leftist feminist political agenda. She shunned the mainstream and shunned capitalism, so it's funny seeing her marry a Beastie Boy and reaping from that wealth (and no, I am not saying she married him for money—I'm sure it was incidental, but still).

R102 is right. Hole, L7, and Babes in Toyland were all female-led bands that inspired the riot grrrl scene, but had no direct connection to it. Somehow, they ended up being lumped in with these ridiculous "bands" they had influenced. Riot grrrl was very localized—pretty much all of those bands were made up of students from the Evergreen State College, a leftist laughing stock of an institution with no academic standards, and where you can major in literally anything. It's an intellectual travesty of a place, and almost all of those riot grrrl groups were a joke. I believe Courtney Love, for a brief period, tried to support the scene (I think she had a couple of the bands open for hers at one point), but I think she quickly came to her senses. Babes in Toyland shunned any association with it.

Did she, R98? She talks about being afraid of misgendering people in the article linked at R37.

R105 You're taking it way too seriously. Sure, the riot grrrl bands were strident about their feminism, but they were also a lot of fun. Many of my women friend's were inspired by these bands to try things that they thought they couldn't do. They made space for other women musicians, and for that they have my respect.

That's hilarious R101. I don't hate any of them, but they do annoy me at times, especially Rollins.

Get a grip, people. Damn.

She looks like a complete Karen in that article @R37!

That fruity pebbles commercial?!?

Total sell out.

I too loved Heavens to Betsy. Better than the Subsequent Sleater Kinney.What is Corin Tucker up to these days? One hell of a voice.

R110 I'm 99% sure I saw Corin Tucker walking through a hospital in Portland about 4 or 5 years ago. I was leaving my doctor's office and passed her in a breezeway. I know Corin and Carrie Brownstein were/are(?) still doing Sleater-Kinney, but Janet Weiss left the band a year or so ago after Carrie's girlfriend (the imperious Annie "St. Vincent" Clark) got her hands into the music-making and produced their most recent record—which sucked, and was a flop, by the way. Then again, I find everything Sleater-Kinney did horribly dull. I find it truly ear-grating.

Also, I don't think Corin has a good voice—nor does Carrie. Both their singing voices are very thin and affected. Combined with the dull guitar riffs, everything they do is yawn-inducing. Kathleen at least had a powerful, forceful voice that grabbed your attention—same with Courtney Love.

You are kidding, right? Corin has some of the best female voices. And Carrie is an amazing guitar player

R105 These some interesting alumni though from the College, including Matt Groening.

R110 'Decaptacon' by Le Tigre got used for a Michael Hill Jeweller chain advert in Australia (and maybe NZ). Not sure if bands always get total control of where their music gets used. I think some has total control whilst others may not?

If I remember rightly, Bikini Kill made no money from their records, and finally took ownership of the tapes for the albums are now distribute themselves through their own label.

Also, Samson from Le Tigre has spoken about not making much money despite all their various musical projects - so I don't blame these sorts of acts for getting some money for their music (given they don't make much from the music itself) and have to tour their butts off to pay some very basic bills.

If you don't want small indie bands 'selling out' by letting their stuff be used for commercials or movies, then buy their work. Don't just stream their music from Spotify or watch their vids on YouTube where they make nothing at all and are ripped of by streaming companies.

Bands shouldn't have to tour and perform to make money from the music they produce.

People are cheap and then have the nerve to call these bands 'sell outs' for trying to make some money from the music they have worked hard to produce and create.

R111 I liked their first album they part produced in Melbourne.

How many people in 90s alt rock were trust-fund babies? Sonic Youth and Pavement come to mind.

R118 Probably not as much as the early 2000s NYC scene - The Strokes, Yeah Yeah Yeahs, Vampire Weekend - all rich kids who could have some fun and know they could inherit some good money from their folks.

R118 Sonic Youth were an 80s underground band. In the 90s they were signed to a major label

I didn’t know where else to go, but I gotta ask you guys... what happened to that Def Leppard thread?

BTW, I always think it funny when older gays are like, “who is into this metal shit, anyways?” Didn’t they see it in periodicals?

R113 no, I'm being serious. Their voices are nimble-thin, and their guitar playing is dull as dirt. Carrie is a fine guitar player, technically speaking, but the riffs are boring as fuck. Of all these bands, the only ones I think are worth a shit are Hole and Babes in Toyland; Hole, because Courtney is a great lyricist, and Babes in Toyland because Kat is a great guitar player. Pretty much every riot grrrl band and riot grrrl spin-off is abysmal.

Fools.

I loved this stuff. Supplemental teenyouth cultcha.

Has Courtney ever written a love song? Her lyrics all seem to be of the wry and observational kind, which you don’t see a lot with female rock musicians.

R126 Doll Parts?

Didn't Kurt write the entire Live Through This album?

R128 The lyrics are very “Courtney Love” though. I think Kurt probably helped to streamline her songs.

Billy Corgan wrote her music. And many of her lyrics on most of the Hole albums.

R118 Sonic Youth were definitely NOT trust fund babies. Kim and Thurston may have come from privileged white backgrounds in the suburbs in the 70's before making their way to NYC, and were raised by arty parents (Kim especially). But once they left home or college, they were on their own. Their penniless struggles as a band for years leading up to their sixth (and first major label) album have been so meticulously time-lined and documented in countless biographies, articles, and interviews, it would be impossible to be some sort of cover up.

Pavement... maybe? I don't know their history that well.

Courtney Love? DEFINITELY a trust fund baby. And adult. This is well-documented and she even jokes about it in her own weird way.

Ever since early 00s bands like The Strokes and Yeah-Yeah-Yeah’s came into the limelight, people generally assume indie band members are trust-fund babies.

^ they pretty much have to be now.

It's a shame, too, R132. Kurt was the last rock star in so many ways, including the last one to make it from a working-class-type background.

Nowadays, when I see someone like Kurt Vile, for example, I think he landed in the wrong decade. His talent is wasted on this one.

On the other hand, singer-songwriters have it easier. They can record their music at little expense (if they’re talented and can write and perform their own music), and release it on Soundcloud without having to deal with gatekeepers. Bands usually have a lot more overhead.

I think KH looks really cute and scrappy in OP's pic. I looked at a bunch of photos of her and she seems comfortable with or without makeup. Now she looks like a normal woman of her age.

CL is on the sixth plastic version of her face.

R131 But you're more likely to go out and chase arty dreams if you know at some stage there's a good chance you'll inherit a nice house and some money from the folks. Pursuing your dreams is therefore less risky.

R130 bullshit. Hole's lyrics have always been all Courtney. The guitar riffs ostensibly had more input from Eric Erlandson than from her (she's not a great guitar player). Billy Corgan did admittedly help write about 1/2 of the instrumentation on Celebrity Skin, and it's possible Kurt helped with some riffs on Live Through This, but lyrics-wise, I cannot imagine Courtney handing the reins over to Billy or anyone else for that matter.

Thank you, R138. (Sorry, I know I’m late to this.)

R128 and R130 are retards.

Way old thread but she screams about feminism and equality and charity while living in a $3 million house with her rich husband and their son they keep a secret. Since she was 45 when the kid was born I’m guessing they used a surrogate/donor eggs and that’s not a good look for a self proclaimed feminist.