NYTimes: Workplace expert Roxane Gay has tough advice for woman whose "man-baby" colleague won't take responsibility!

Why is she (of all people) the NY Times advice expert for the workplace?

Also: why is she such a bitch in that column? Why is she such a bitch period?

This woman is simply trying to fit a mundane workplace experience into the victim rhetoric she learned from Roxane Gay and modern TV series. Stories that neatly conform to ideological narratives are almost never true.

The male colleague must be right, this woman is delusional.

The rest of Roxane's advice:

**************

You do not have to let this go. You should not let this go. I teach, and because I am sensitive to women generally being relegated to note-taking and so on, I rotate the responsibility among all students, regardless of gender. You can do something similar. And you can also let these men fail. They are adults, and they can clean up their own professional messes. Secondary work responsibilities should be shared by everyone. If a natural, equitable system isn’t manifesting, assign people specific responsibilities. Stop assuming everything will fall apart if you don’t hold it together. Stop coddling grown men. Prioritize your own work and ambition more than you prioritize the man-babies you work with.

Idina Menzel says let it go R3

WTF does this fat, angry, bitter dyke know about men?

Has Roxane Gay ever worked in an office? A corporate environment in any capacity?

What a bunch of douches on this thread. Or maybe you're a bunch of man babies yourselves.

The columnist is 100% right. The letter writer's colleague is a passive-aggressive jerk and is not entitled to his alternative facts. I was in various corporate jobs for over 40 years and the narrative that women generally get stuck with minding their male colleagues has been completely true in my experience, though I did see some signs of improvement in my last position.

R7, have you really worked with a douchery of man-babies, or are you a control freak??

I’ve worked in corporate America nearly as long as you and the babies I’ve worked with have been both men and women.

Generalizing can be fun though.

Women in committees spend half their time yakking about their personal lives instead of working, in my experience.

“ Stop assuming everything will fall apart if you don’t hold it together.”

This is something that women tend to do. Nobody’s handing out Martyr Awards, and nobody gets a trophy for suffering. One thing I admired about my late MIL was that she just delegated shit and left everyone to pull their weight. Woe to you of you didn’t. She was a very successful woman because she didn’t micromanage and nag and pick up anyone’s slack. People, even children, will exploit a martyr.

“ s nonsense. Moving along. Research has long shown that in collaborative work settings, women shoulder the most responsibility.”

She pulled that right out of her puss. What complete bullshit.

Same old song, and what verse are we on now?

Perhaps the woman’s male colleague should write in asking for advice on how to handle the systematic double standards women benefit from in the workplace? Or how it’s much easier for women to leave or get out of work due to “the kids”, or how men aren’t afforded their own spaces in the workplace as women do with ‘nursing rooms’ after childbirth etc. Or how women outnumber men in the workforce and occupy the overwhelming majority of middle and lower management positions.

More that 70% of working Americans have a female as their direct or indirect supervisor. You wouldn’t know that with all the bullshit we’re fed about how women are supposedly martyred, marginalized and mistreated members of the workforce.

Any advice for that, Roxanne?

[quote]The letter writer's colleague is a passive-aggressive jerk and is not entitled to his alternative facts.

Quit being delusional, you don't even know these people. This woman is being influenced by a corporate feminist rhetoric that is trendy in social media (her very word choice points to that fact), and it seems to me that the same applies to you.

[quote] I was in various corporate jobs for over 40 years and the narrative that women generally get stuck with minding their male colleagues has been completely true in my experience

Sounds like bullshit.

A few years ago, on Twitter (the epicenter for much of this whiny type of corporate feminism), some women from academia were in a misandrist circlejerk bitching to one another about the lack of recognition they got from men, and one of the complaints that were being made was that their male colleagues are less likely to refer to them as doctor (notice the petty upper-middle class entitlement behind these feminist whinefests).

One of the women who made this complaint said she was going to comb through her emails to make a blog post with statistics showing this discrepancy.

On her blog post, however, came the surprise: she admitted that after looking at her emails, the opposite was true. It was his female colleagues who were failing to call her a doctor, preferring to refer to her by her first name.

I admire this professor (sorry, this doctor) for having the intellectual honesty to acknowledge in public that her attempt to denigrate her male colleagues was unfounded. But it would still be interesting to speculate as to why her impression of her experience was the exact opposite of the truth.

My answer is this: the impression we have of reality is not neutral, but shaped by ideas that we receive from the external environment. And one of the ideas that we have received in recent years from TV series, media columnists, etc., is this one that the female writer is communicating and you are defending here: that women do the bulk of the work in the office while the men are good for nothing, not even for recognizing the professional title of their female colleagues.

When ideas are transmitted without receiving any kind of pushback (and men aren't allowed to push back against that idea lest they be called man-babies, as your post so well illustrates), people, men and women alike, end up thinking that this idea must have a solid foundation, even if they themselves have never seen any empirical evidence in its support, because we operate under the unconscious assumption that lies and fallacies are refuted and rejected as soon as they appear.

As such, people try to fit their experiences into the uncontested narratives they learn from their cultural environment, even if a particular narrative itself is false in their case, as illustrated in the case of the doctor mentioned above.

If popular culture has now chosen to tell women all the time that only they work hard and that all men do in the office is slagging off, then this is how women will end up thinking; their memories of female competence and male laziness will end up being reinforced, even if that is not the whole story, as evidenced by the fact that male employees do not share these impressions.

And lest we forget, r7, women are not the only ones entitled to their lived experiences; men are entitled to theirs, too.

Defensive much, gentlemen? That's because you know it's true.

My bff, who lost her job due to covid, just told me yesterday that of the five people left at her job, the two doing all the work are the women, and the three men - who didn't contribute to the project - are taking all the credit and putting only their names on the report.

But if you were women, you'd know that that's just another day in America.

[quote]lesbian

Figures.

r15 there's probably more to that story.

Yeah -- it's called white male privilege, R17.

No, maybe your friend isn't telling the whole story.

R8, I certainly have worked with a lot of man babies. Worked for them. Had some work for me and had to eventually read them the riot act, with the full support of my bosses (who, in these cases, were mostly female).

Have dealt with some woman babies too, but a very small number in comparison to the guys.

This Roxane woman confuses me so much. [italic]Why[/italic] is she considered the go-to person on every topic under the sun? What does she know about working in corporate environments? It's not just this workplace topic either, it's the majority of topics she writes about. She doesn't really have expertise in much of it. Everything is always filtered through her victim lens. If you see enough of her stuff, it becomes very clear she doesn't like men that much, and she doesn't like white women that much either, and so any point she makes is going to be so she can make broad and unfounded statements about either of these groups.

Also, no one here can claim there are more man-babies or more women-babies in workplaces as a whole, because it's not possible for one person to have worked in enough workplaces out of all that exist to get a significant result on that. For my part, I could point out that in pretty much every job I've had, it's been women who have very quickly become lazy and shirked their responsibilities, leaving it for men in the office to pick up the slack and it would be true in my situation, but I can't extrapolate that to workplaces as a whole. Neither can Roxane or any of these other people arguing that men are the ones who are more likely to behave like this.

If you consider that many people seem to love being the biggest victim in the room it does explain a lot.

I have no idea why anyone listens to this woman's opinions, for the reasons r21 stated.

I'd like to see her CV, I would bet $$$ she's never worked in a corporate environment or if she did it was only briefly.

Now let’s see a column about all the women in the workplace who always pull the “mommy card” to constantly skip work and their colleagues have to take on their workload. You know, when Jayden supposedly has a cold, or Maddisyn has a t-ball game (and there are always at least 3 dramas a week, if not more).

My favorite are the ones who use Madysyn and Jaydyn as an excuse when Madysyn and Jadydyn are in their late teens.

I think your almost-grown children will be able to take care of themselves just fine for a few hours Karen, now get back to work!

[quote]Why is she (of all people) the NY Times advice expert for the workplace?

Roxane must have a lot of connections in the newspaper world, because she always gets these weird gigs that have absolutely nothing to do with her actual skillset. It seems like papers and magazines just plop her into whatever job they need at the moment. I half expect her to have a lonely hearts column in Newsweek any day now.

I mean, this is the lady who made a pot of burned grease for dinner one night, the bitch can't cook, yet she published a food column in a major newspaper.

As far as I can tell, Roxane Gay has spent her entire working life as an academic researcher and lecturer. She's not really qualified to give advice regarding workplace intricacies in the business/corporate world.

Same, r20. I get real fucking irritated at the straight guys I work with who are these coddled manbaby whiners who want someone to do everything for them. It happens a lot, sometimes with straight women as well. You never get that from gays or lesbians.

[quote]>"Research has long shown that in collaborative work settings, women shoulder the most responsibility.”

[quote]She pulled that right out of her puss. What complete bullshit.

Classy response. No, it's true, she may not be a workplace expert but she knows how to Google. You don't, apparently. Sad.

I confess to pulling the clueless-old-man part to get out of note taking.

My sister's an academic and says that Gay is largely regarded as a "joke" who gets jobs due to her "fame."

That sounds about right R30. She's just part of the zeitgeist at the moment really. One of my friends says she thinks Roxane will be considered a classic author in years to come! I just can't see that myself.

Oh my god R25, I remember when everyone was sharing pictures of her cooking around - those were some of the best deep belly laughs of my life!

Gee -- gay men think that women are always at fault. Surprise, surprise!!

The straight men you're defending would rather fuck this fat old lesbian than let you suck their dicks. So I don't know why you bother.

Well, that's a response about as rational and well-researched as anything Roxane herself might put out R32. No one here is saying women are always at fault. It is instead people like Roxane and her supporters who constantly say men are the ones always at fault.

r30 I have friends and acquaintances in the academic world and they just roll their eyes when Gay is mentioned. She's not taken seriously, apparently she's seen as a lightweight (no pun intended) but she checks a lot of boxes that are currently fashionable and in the current cultural climate for another academic to publicly call her out on her lace of credentials or knowledge in general would be a career-ender so people just keep their mouths shut because they fear for their jobs and reputations. In private circles among academics, however, she's seen as a bit of a joke.

On her LACK of credentials, not lace. Sorry.

We need an edit function dammit!

[quote]Now let’s see a column about all the women in the workplace who always pull the “mommy card” to constantly skip work and their colleagues have to take on their workload.

You must not have worked in an office setting for a while. Men pull this shit all the time now. And, not only to they get away with it but they are lauded for being such awesome, responsible, engaged dads for doing so. This is, of course, done at the same time that a woman in the same office is shit upon for it. Kicker: he'll get the promotion

^You can't say that, each office situation is different. I know in mine there were a group of women constantly leaving work early and coming in less and when they were in they were spending their whole day chatting or on the phone to family and friends, dumping their work on others and no one higher up said anything, and then when I needed an extra couple of days off to recover from a serious surgery I had had the attitude was much less forgiving. Because I could be relied upon to do all the work these women didn't, and they were worried it wouldn't get done without me, but they wouldn't hold the women to task. I've never personally seen men get away with half the stuff women do in office environments, but as I mentioned in my post above, I'd never say "women do this ALL the time!" because obviously plenty don't. Just like plenty of men don't too.

R13 and then what about how because of factors like ‘the kids’ women tend to have lower credit ratings than men, for this and other factors are much less likely than men to secure financing to open their businesses and therefore only 30% of new businesses are owned by women.

Or how because of factors like ‘the kids’ women are less likely to be hired in small businesses because they are viewed as more risky (demands of potential motherhood / men eschew equal responsibility in family unit) and that in businesses where there isn’t infrastructure like nursing rooms (?) setup that these businesses are more reluctant to hire them. You’re awful.

[quote]the “mommy card”

The whining about this is such bullshit.

Women are expected to take care of the kids, even if they have full-time jobs. Couples have to have two incomes thanks to wage stagnation. The woman almost always has to work for financial reasons. She's also expected to take care of the kids. That's a cultural constant, and you removing yourself from the marriage-and-kids equation doesn't mean you get to ignore how our entire culture works. You still need to recognize and accept it, instead of whining like you're a victim.

Not to mention, office workplaces often give women leeway to work some flexible hours because of their children, but most other jobs DO NOT. Women who work at Walmart or as waitresses or in factories aren't given this "woman card" you bitch about incessantly.

If you or anyone is having a real, legitimate problem with being forced to do work that is others' responsibility, you need to wait until your balls drop, then go talk to your supervisor about it. Crying like a little bitch on Datalounge doesn't do anything.

Ummm, the only person I see crying like a little bitch on here is you R39.

There's always one angry person on these Roxane Gay threads who is so desperate to defend everything she says and who deliberately takes what everyone else is saying out of context so they can fulfill the victim narratives they're clearly comfortable with. I've noticed many of her supporters idolise her in a very strange way.

R14. This is so true. Women, particularly white upper middle class women think feminism means men have to kiss their asses.

Agreed R41. And in my experience they tend to be the type of women who would've denied being feminists until very recently when the mood changed. They tend to think feminism means putting them in first place or something equally self-centred.

I work with four women. 3 work really hard. 1 is a lazy asshole. The lazy asshole loves to complain and behaves as if she does the most work.

R42. I definitely wouldn't call those lean in/girl boss fraus feminists. They are just hijacking the movement for their own personal gain. "Girl power" until another woman gets in their way, then of course they steam roll the offending bitch/whore/slut. I've had multiple women confide in me that they hate having female supervisors.

Lol the delusion on this thread of u guys trying to act like having children somehow benefits women in the workplace b/c they can use it as an excuse to get out of work early? Lol. As if the cost of feeding, clothing, educating, etc a child not to matter all the hours taking care of the child and paying for the childcare while you’re at work is all a ruse so you can occasionally get out of work at 4.45.

[quote]She's not taken seriously, apparently she's seen as a lightweight (no pun intended) but she checks a lot of boxes

Well, she certainly couldn't fit in one.

[quote]There's always one angry person on these Roxane Gay threads who is so desperate to defend everything she says

I'm sorry you're unable to figure out who posts what, but I very clearly have NOT supported her. For fuck's sake, I said the bitch can't cook.

My entire post was directed toward "mommy card" guy, a troll you probably know better as the guy who is always screaming about Boomers being history's greatest monsters.

Why you want to defend a stupid little bitch like him is beyond me.

R46 Oof, that awful Randa Jarrar is in that photo too! Not a surprise they would spend time together, peas in a pod those two.

[quote]Women are expected to take care of the kids, even if they have full-time jobs. Couples have to have two incomes thanks to wage stagnation. The woman almost always has to work for financial reasons. She's also expected to take care of the kids.

That’s not our problem! If you choose to have kids, nobody feels sorry for that hassles you CHOSE. Those of us without kids should not have to have your workload thrown on us to take care of because you can’t balance your life with “hubby” correctly. If your husband isn’t helping out with taking care of the children, then that’s your problem for choosing someone worthless to have kids with.

Taking credit for other people's work is not exclusive to male/female coworkers. It has always been a part of corporate America. You have to plan better and keep things close to the vest to make sure when your idea or work is in the spotlight, you are able to get the credit you deserve.

And r15, how did these men manage to keep the ladies names off the report? are they all actual peers, or are they at different levels? I tend to agree with r17. Either you, your friend, or the lady still at work is not revealing the whole picture. It is usually a superior who tries to take credit for somebody else's work.

What a STUPID photo in the New York Times she's allowed to publish of herself- with her head resting on her hands and her eyes ROLLING back into her head.

I wonder if they would allow anyone else to have such an idiotic photo of themselves to appear above their essays.

Hahahaha R51! Now you mention it, that IS ridiculous. Not exactly the most professional photo, is it?

Men never do their fair share. Of anything.

Sure, Roxane at R53.

Oh god, it's so bad!

R49 I think the fact that you’re far more likely to get a job as a childless person rather than a woman with a child more than makes up for any suffering you might face by a woman colleague of yours having to leave a little early to bring her child to the hospital for instance. Also remember if you’re a man that your pay is artificially higher than it should be by virtue of you being a man. So rest on that. You have an easier time of it sans baby, and avec penis.

[quote] I think the fact that you’re far more likely to get a job as a childless person rather than a woman with a child more than makes up for any suffering you might face by a woman colleague of yours having to leave a little early to bring her child to the hospital for instance. Also remember if you’re a man that your pay is artificially higher than it should be by virtue of you being a man. So rest on that. You have an easier time of it sans baby, and avec penis.

This is homophobia. Gay men do not have privilege.

Also, this:

[quote]Also remember if you’re a man that your pay is artificially higher than it should be by virtue of you being a man.

Is patently untrue in many workplaces.

I could write a book on this like most of us could. But people are hard to work with, male and female. Men can be babies and women have their issues as well.

I think people need to stop bringing their home dynamics in the workplace. I honestly think its an American thing. You think in China and Japan they have time for this bullshit? You can only "mind" a man baby if you assume the mother role. I have worked with several women who do this and it not only leads to negative interactions with coworkers, it also leaves the woman burnt out like a mom with ten kids. Your employees are employees, not children.

An equally difficult male management style are guys who manage their employees with the team sports or military style leadership. That does not go over well in every office environment.

[quote]But people are hard to work with, male and female. Men can be babies and women have their issues as well.

Yep, agreed.

And interesting point about women who assume the mother role. This can never lead to happiness. I have noticed this a lot lately amongst certain women I know. They will take on this role over men, unasked and unwanted, and then act aggrieved when the men don't appreciate it. Sometimes it honestly comes across like they are trying to create a situation where they can say: "Oh, I do everything for everyone and no one appreciates me!"

And to be clear, I'm talking about something I've noticed with [italic]some[/italic] women. Not all or even most of them. But there are certain women who take this role, particularly with gay men, in my experience.

And to add above, this:

[quote]An equally difficult male management style are guys who manage their employees with the team sports or military style leadership.

Wouldn't work for me either. Well, [italic]maybe[/italic] the military style leadership, only in that I know I appreciate boundaries. But the team sports vibe is really off putting to me. Very good point!

Get with the times, Greg. There's a new thing called Women's Lib. It means women get what they want.

R58 while it may be untrue in certain workplaces it’s true broadly and generally in most workplaces that you get paid more as a man for the same work than a woman is paid. This includes gay men. This is how the statistic is made. As a man you will earn more over you life than if you were a woman. You can throw your toys around all you want but it’s true.

^There was nothing in that post that implies "throwing toys around". No one's going to take someone seriously when they exaggerate and engage in personal attacks like that. That's just a tactic straight out of the Roxane Gay playbook.

[quote] [R58] while it may be untrue in certain workplaces it’s true broadly and generally in most workplaces that you get paid more as a man for the same work than a woman is paid.

No actually r58 is right. It’s patently untrue.

Thank you R65!

Set and enforce boundaries around taskings.

Document, document, document.

Same without being so fucking exhausting.

She seems to be constantly exhausted.

Weight loss might help.

If Roxane wasn't able to be 'exhausted' all the time she might actually be happy, and that would never do. Where would her sense of superiority come from then?

R65, why don't you read the bio of the author of your proof?

You can manipulate statistics in either direction. The point is that over their lifetimes men will make more money because of factors that they don't have to take into consideration that women do. Child care and elder care alone make a huge difference as those fall onto women to a huge degree. You can whine all you want about these women choosing to have children but so did the men. And you can't whine about them choosing to have aging parents. Men are also handed higher starting salaries than women all the time. Less qualified men are given promotions over women all the time. These are facts.

That you would link to manipulated lies and bullshit spewed by a right-wing asshole to prove your point, proves our point.

R65 / R66 lol did u read that article? What a pile of bullshit. Doing the same job does not mean comparing hrs worked - 40hrs v 35hrs can’t explain it away like that. Just because a man stays late doesn’t mean they’re working more it just shows lower efficiency.

Women chose to have children, dyke at R70.

Gay men make less money than straight men because of homophobia, not differing choices.

Go to sleep Roxane at R70/R71, you're awfully crabby tonight.

Gay men make less money than straight men because they take more female-centric jobs. Your getting paid less is based on misogyny, yet you fight on the side of misogyny. You are fucking morons, R72/R73.

[qutoe]Gay men make less money than straight men because they take more female-centric jobs. Your getting paid less is based on misogyny, yet you fight on the side of misogyny. You are fucking morons, [R72]/[R73].

No, dyke.

Gay men who work in the same field as straight men get paid less because of homophobia.

reply 74 4 minutes ago

[quote]Gay men make less money than straight men because they take more female-centric jobs. Your getting paid less is based on misogyny, yet you fight on the side of misogyny. You are fucking morons, [[R72]]/[[R73]].

No, dyke.

Gay men who work in the same field as straight men get paid less because of homophobia.

You say 'women shouldering the bulk of the work' and I say 'women who think work is like home and need to control everything'.

[quote]Gay men make less money than straight men because they take more female-centric jobs.

Bollocks.

R72 even if a woman never has children she will still suffer employment discrimination based on the possibility that she would have a child. Is that her choice?

So R76 if a woman earns less it’s her own fault but gays earning less is homophobia? Gurl.

Homophobia is based in misogyny.

R79 even if a heroin addict never has an overdose at work she will still suffer employment discrimination based on the possibility that she would have an overdose at work. Is that her choice?

Misogyny is based in homophobia.

You want to reorder the world in an unnatural way, R79.

I resent this idea, put about by one particular poster on here (and who I recognise as probably being the poster saying similar things from other threads) that to disagree with people like Roxane is to be sidling up to misogyny and other bigotries. We don't have to accept incorrect information or agree with everything some uninformed, terrible writer says in order to be against bigotry, just because she claims to be against bigotry too.

R82 comparing fertility to a drug addiction is so indicative of your gap in intelligence that I don’t know what to say. It shows not only your total lack of understanding of women, but also the subject at hand, and also heroin addiction!

R84 to clarify I don’t suggest that women should be discriminated against based on their potential for motherhood it was a logical conclusion of another comment. “If such and such is thus then such and such would have to be thusly” kinda thing.

I always love it when Roxane is whinging about something online and then ends her post by snapping at her followers: "I DON'T NEED ADVICE!" Which, of course she doesn't. Being able to fix her problems would give her less to be "so tired" about!

[quote] comparing fertility to a drug addiction is so indicative of your gap in intelligence that I don’t know what to say.

You’re right: women chose to have children, addicts suffer from an illness over which they have little control.

The only surprise in this is that a woman found it necessary to write for advice! The position of women in the workplace has become so dominant, and they employ every tactic in the book (including as groups) against any male they deem offside, it's difficult to imagine the writer needs to reach out for further support.

The entire 'team' corporate culture that has grown up in recent years is primarily due to women, who have a greater need to collaborate then men. That's why one finds decisions which 30 years ago would have been swiftly made by a single male middle manager, now involve endless meetings and group discussions, and more people responsible for things that were formerly managed by one penised person. Alpha males, which used to be prevalent in offices, have been castrated; replaced by neutered Millennials. The culture of big corporate offices of 30 years ago resembled a say-anything, do-anything, happy zoo compared to the super-compliant, buttoned-up, fun-reduced offices of today. Because every employee knows they're only one slipped word or gesture away from an HR review. Ghastly.

Dear Roxanne,

The woman I work with was gone for a few months for maternity leave. We had to keep her job open for her, and since no one wanted to be a 4 month maternity leave hire, I had to do most of her work for her. Now, she is back in the office and she takes multiple breaks a day to pump milk. She is never at her desk when we need to talk. And worse of all, she is mad that things in the office changed during the time she was gone. What can I do?

Dear R90,

You're a man and will be fine. You've always been fine and will continue to be fine, so we shouldn't waste any time worrying about you.

Correction: the offices of 40 years ago. The thing that really changed office culture IMHO was Black Monday, the stockmarket crash of 1987. In the resulting long recession, middle management (which was still predominately male) was wiped out. Because they then made cheaper hires, when rehiring began, women juniors in multiples were hired into middle management roles. Everything changed from then on, including the culture, to the more micro-managed oppressive one of today.

R92 lol what movie are you living inside? Working girl?

The mommy issues on display in this thread are hilarious in their obviousness, especially because the ones suffering from them are completely oblivious.

[quote]The mommy issues on display in this thread are hilarious in their obviousness, especially because the ones suffering from them are completely oblivious.

F&F this homophobia. Gay men do not have 'mommy issues' or any other made-up bigoted psuedoscience BS.

Protest louder, R95. That'll prove you don't have mommy issues.

Get fuck out of gay men's spaces, dyke at R96.

[quote]lol what movie are you living inside? Working girl?

It's true. Millennials and Gen Xs might envy the generation before them that had individual offices with privacy, but that was just the surface. If they really knew how awful they have it compared to the past, they'd revolt!! Office culture now is terrible. Terrible! Back then, when KPIs and performance reviews were unknown, office culture was male dominated, and everyone worked as a lone wolf to varying degrees. Now everyone is forced to collaborate because decisions are now far more often group made, resulting in many more meetings, but no true increase in efficiency.

That's good, R97. Louder. Louder. Louder. And, throw in even more misogyny because that's also proving your point! And, I just want to thank you for proving my points for me with such verve and alacrity!

Lesbians have daddy issues.

R98 what’s really happening is that as time moves on, women are closing the gap on equality with men in the workplace, that means that people like you feel like it’s harder because you have to do more than before - still not your fair share however. Also, fawning over the glory days of past ‘office culture’ is so cringey. Altho what would anyone expect from someone that still says ‘lone wolf’ in a serious way. What’s next... “we need to grab em by the balls”?

This thread has taken a kinda weird and depressing turn. At the end of the day, we're all family, remember. Can I request we get back to people making funny and sarky comments and observations about Roxane? They always make me smile.

R102 lol u think this thread was started in good faith?

[quote]still not your fair share however.

Yeah, right.

[quote]fawning over the glory days of past ‘office culture’ is so cringey.

Says the worker bee.

[quote]that still says ‘lone wolf’ in a serious way.

Could any statement --- the dismissal of personal independence for groupthink --- be more Millennial?!

Hail lockstep Brave New World, where independent behaviour and thought is not only discounted, but demeaned!

R104 ummmm I was saying your buzzwordy lingo was outdated.

Your obsession with order in workplaces doesn’t mark u out as an independent thinker sorry

To be fair R103, Roxane Gay is really a ridiculous person. I don't think it has to be bad faith for whoever started the thread to want to poke a little fun, if that's what they were doing.

R106 I agree she is ridiculous absolutely - this site is so infested with conservatives and right wing nightmares however that the nastiness of misogyny and racism comes out from behind the veneer very quickly. The thread might nominally be about her but really it’s just assholes that can’t be anti woman irl because they’re too scared to so they do it online here in a veil of anonymity. Embarrassing really.

Gay men do not exist as support humans for female breeders, R107. We have a right to discuss how they impact us in work environments.

I agree about the right-wing infestation on this site, but I do not see it coming from gay men on this thread.

Ok. I’ll be honest. First off, as a manager, it is my responsibility to see that my reports and their reports succeed in the workplace, regardless of their sex or sexual orientation. Some managers keep their employees down because they feel threatened when their subordinates start getting recognized. So ridiculous.

That being said, I try to get to know them all. And if a woman strikes me as a true career hound, I won’t hesitate to encourage them to go for assignments where their performance would be hampered by a pregnancy. almost without fail, these women turn out to be rising stars and I go to the mat for them every time reviews come around so they receive the compensation they have earned.

If they are in prime child bearing years and seem likely to get pregnant, I won’t get in their way, but I won’t invest in them like I would the other women I described. But usually these women will gravitate towards tracks that can more easily accommodate a pregnancy and I encourage that every realistic accommodation be provided for them.

It isn’t about discrimination. It is about fairness and reasonable expectations. I do have to protect the company’s interest as well.

So shoot me.

R71, we had a huge thread on that article when it came out at the time, and people made that exact same point, but the MRA crowd around here wouldn't hear it.

The Forbes article is just one of those things written by an outlet with an agenda, which is obvious if you read its twisty logic and compare it to actual statistics.

This thread was probably started in good faith, yes, because we talk about Roxane Gay a lot and as others said, she's ridiculous and it's perplexing why she gets writing jobs that would be better suited to others.

But the thread quickly turned into a wholesale bashing of women, which is typical. There is a long-standing tradition on DL of complaining that women get away with murder while men are victimized by their very existence, and these threads bring out all the alleged supervisors who have to deal with women being -- ugh! -- women, plus all the old guys who also post "women should be forced to wear hats and gloves and crinolines and stay at home like dear sainted mother did."

Some of them are trolls, some are just assholes. All of them are people who just cannot wrap their heads around the reality that couples need two incomes at least, that in hetero couples women do the majority of childcare and eldercare and taking care of the home, and that most women work jobs where there is no such thing as a flexible schedule or the ability to just say "I'm off to soccer practice" before the work day is over.

[quote]>The mommy issues on display in this thread are hilarious in their obviousness, especially because the ones suffering from them are completely oblivious.

[quote]F&F this homophobia. Gay men do not have 'mommy issues' or any other made-up bigoted psuedoscience BS.

The men on Datalounge do, whether they're gay or just some leftover hetero rightwing trolls. They didn't say all gays had mommy issues, they said the people in this thread did. You CAN read, can't you?

Go ahead, waste an FF on them making an obvious point -- in case you haven't noticed, nothing gets moderated around here anymore.

Accusing gay men have having 'mommy issues' (whatever that is) is an old homophobic trope.

Such a voluptuous lovely gal

R109 what you’ve just described is discrimination and unfairness lol. Read it back to yourself more slowly. “I treat women differently because of their potential for pregnancy”. That’s discrimination.

Like I said r115. Shoot me. Read my post again without your hysteria blinders on. I base it on probability not possibility. I don’t really care how you interpret it. I have rarely been wrong in these calls.

There are women who could possibly get pregnant that I have put in these positions, but it was not probable. I am not talking about leadership roles in the cubicle farm. I am talking about extensive travel to undesirable locations for weeks on end. Investments are required. There are also men I won’t put up for these roles.

[quote] [R49] I think the fact that you’re far more likely to get a job as a childless person rather than a woman with a child more than makes up for any suffering you might face by a woman colleague of yours having to leave a little early to bring her child to the hospital for instance. Also remember if you’re a man that your pay is artificially higher than it should be by virtue of you being a man. So rest on that. You have an easier time of it sans baby, and avec penis.

I actually have no problem with any of that. When my children were young, we made sacrifices for my wife to stay home with them until the youngest was 6. We had an old car, put off home ownership, never ate out, rarely bought new clothes for ourselves and struggled to keep the lights on. Our choice. And I would pick it again. When she went back to work as an accountant, she got a job with the city that was not as glamorous as many of her friends from school who were way ahead of her on the career scale by then. We have since divorced for obvious reasons (since I am here). But she makes good money now and the city has good health benefits and a pension plan. Aside from being married to me, I would call her life a pretty fulfilling success story.

So since you are willing to admit that women with children deserve to be paid less in exchange for accomodations not extended to men with children, then I am all on board.

She fat.

R116 lol I was correcting you because you said in your first post it wasn’t discrimination, and then in your most recent post you’ve acknowledged it’s discrimination. That’s either growth or memory loss so deal with that as needed. I know you’re just a cog in the machine so you don’t have the power to effect change but your obsequiousness to said machine is disheartening (but unsurprising).

R117 did you find this on mumsnet?

[quote]Read my post again without your hysteria blinders on.

Funny that the employer who openly discriminates against women uses the "hysteria" crap that went out of style, basically, with the Roman empire. Sexist fucking Repug. Guaranteed.

I've found a number of the posts here that are women-bashing to be really disappointing too. Now, I don't think it's an excuse at all, but I will push back slightly on the idea that everything was ok in this thread until the women-bashers turned up. Reading through, it's plain to see that it was a response to one poster who started writing blanket statements about men like R7, R20, R32. And others were pushing back on that.

To be really fair, a number of posters above were merely talking about their experiences with women in the workplace that showed that Roxane and her follower's attitudes about men were too simplistic. Those posters made it very clear in what they were writing that they weren't saying it was all women, that they were merely showing it wasn't black and white. Then the thread got hijacked, and it was both by women-bashers and men-bashers.

I hate doing the "both sides" thing here, but in this case it really is true.

R30 and R34's responses are very illuminating. I have often seen Gay complaining on Twitter that she is being disrespected or otherwise treated badly at work, but based it never quite rings true. Considering her own observed behaviour, towards people who follow and worship her, no less, it has always felt to me like there is more to those stories than poor Roxane is being treated badly. I expect she behaves in a pretty recalcitrant manner and then complains when others don't bow down to her that it's a sign of being oppressed.

Lesbians like Roxane LIVE for being victims.

If someone wasn’t mistreating Roxane she would just make it up.

It’s pathological sadly.

Is she a big girl? Roomy through the hips?

She’s exhausted as often as Susan Collins is concerned.

Typical Roxane:

Well, r121, at least my intent wasn’t lost I’m you.

Well r119, you can try and put words in my mouth as much as you want to. I imagine that is a technique you use to help you make it through the day. That is an internal issue for you. Not me.

As I sad in my my most recent post, I will back women who could possibly get pregnant if I find them up to the task. I just don’t believe in setting people up for failure. If that is discrimination in your book, then so be it. The women that I have helped move up the ladder would disagree. But you have your axe to grind. So lean in.

R127- In that video she sounds like an IDIOT , and why would anyone in Australia be interested in what she has to say.

I work for a corporation. It's true that the men generally get away with way more crap than the women, the lazy shit men pull is unreal. BUT it also has to be said that it's straight men, not gay men who do this. It's also true that women take on more work than the men in an attempt to move up when the truth is, if you aren't buddies with the guys in charge then you aren't getting anywhere. People look out for their own so if you are a gay man or a woman, your chances of succeeding is smaller.

You can try and put words in my mouth if you want to r119. That seems to be a coping technique for you, so I will let you work that out on your own. As for my most recent post, I am going to assume that you are the type to play games on forums and deciphered in your grandest detective work that I am R117. If this is the case, then I will spare you satire in the future as it doesn't seem to be your strong suite.

R132 I think you forgot to take your dementia pills you already made a version of this comment 2hrs ago @ R129. Either that or check your ears they might be bleeding. Every time I hear that clunky sentence “you can try and put words in my mouth” I’ll think of you. Bonne chance (I really mean that, you should prob get to an urgent care).

Touche dear. I didn't think it had posted as I was on my phone with poor reception. I shall return to my chess game at the park.

R130, exactly, and also extremely insulting given the issue at hand. She doesn't know the first thing about the issues out here. I have no idea why she gets invited out here to speak either, but she always comes off badly when she does. There was a debate she did here not that long ago where she sat there sighing and rolling her eyes and behaving like a brat, and then got her people to threaten the organisers not to release video of the debate, because she knew she came off badly.

And the funny thing is she basically pulled an "all lives matter" in this video, something she'd be so exhausted by in other circumstances. That hypocrisy is nothing new for her though.

I'm sorry, but we have nothing in your size.

I mean, REALLY.

May we suggest Mr. Ray's War Surplus?

Why does The NY Times hire such terrible Black opinion writers. Charles Blow sucks too. I do like Jamelle Bouie though.

Maybe Roxane is going to be the woke Fran Leibovitz. Thin resume but her contemporaries love her and nobody else gets it.

[quote] [R65], why don't you read the bio of the author of your proof?

Love how they can’t disprove the statement in the article so they go straight to ad hominem.

r137 time will tell. She's very fashionable right now, but fashions change.

R138 the article barely has a point. A 35hr week v a 40hr week does not a thesis make

Inequitable, wobbly, unfair workplace cultures exist. Without recognition and commitment to change by the people running the place/company, improvement is hard.

But the bleeding-cunt blame of men as being the root problem today is naive and bigoted. An anecdote or two does not prove anything. I can offer about a dozen well-evaluated examples (I'm a program and organizational evaluator and researcher) that show how women do the same thing, and get away with it more because of the "historically underutilized/discriminated against group" games they can manipulate. Unfortunately this tendency can and does exist among any minority or group that has a route to power and security not connected to performance measures. The worst places I've seen it is in universities where the quality of entire departments has collapsed as an in-group has propagated an efficient, calculated campaign to take down anyone challenging them.

Why is this tendency worse? Because the entrenched old-boy cultures, sexist slop-pots, arrogant male entitlement dens and the rest of what women and minorities have faced (in fewer proportions as time goes on) are just that. And they have no defense once the identification and attention takes hold. But the burlesque and absurdly Orwellian antics of people who game the "enlightened" approaches and use the protocols of equity to create safe havens for the same patterns of power, control and self-protection are very hard to change once in place. Even bad performance and lack of productivity (and bad client or customer responses) can fail to move the offenders out or change their behavior. They invented cancelling.

If you're in a bad place and can't find support, either go the legal route or get out. The former works only given certain narrow circumstances. And this applies to anyone in any kind of shit organization. Bullies, snipes, back-stabbers, boss-ass-lickers, liars, cheats, braggarts, and generally disgusting cunts come in all colors, sexual identifications, sizes and ethnic backgrounds.

Ms. Gay smells like just the kind of abuser to avoid. Once she said, "Research has long shown that in collaborative work settings, women shoulder the most responsibility," she showed her stance, her beliefs, her bias and her truth. No, just because you're an aggressive, African American woman, it doesn't mean you can get away with this kind of smug bigotry. Oh, wait. Yes you can. Because you are distorting the idea of equity research and skewing limited results to proclaim a rule.

What I observe, more often, is that women's games are more insidious, personal and destructive to openness than are men's in many environments, and they will cut the throats or women just as easily as those of men to keep themselves where they want to be. And don't forget the fucking tears.

I'm a gay male who works in corporate P&C.

I'd like to have a long, long talk about all the times that I am expected to pick up the team workload and stay late to finish/fix up my female colleague's projects, deliverables and deadlines because they have "kid stuff" that is so important they can't do their jobs.

Because I don't have children and am not married I am a "less than" to them so I just have to do it and if I make any noises about having other commitments, I get coldly angry female colleagues staring at me like I owe them something... It happens so regularly I feel like it's in my job description.

So, can we please talk about that?

Lol r141 did you just say ‘an anecdote or two doesn’t prove anything’ and then immediately proceed to offer anecdotes as proof of your point?

Your whole argument is very ‘trust me I kno I’m a researcher u see’ with no factual basis. You’ll have to do better than that sorry.

R141, excellent, well thought out post, I think you really hit the nail on the head there.

[quote]Bullies, snipes, back-stabbers, boss-ass-lickers, liars, cheats, braggarts, and generally disgusting cunts come in all colors, sexual identifications, sizes and ethnic backgrounds.

Yes!

[quote]No, just because you're an aggressive, African American woman, it doesn't mean you can get away with this kind of smug bigotry. Oh, wait. Yes you can. Because you are distorting the idea of equity research and skewing limited results to proclaim a rule.

Yes, yes and yes!

R142, those are have been my experiences as a single, childless gay man at work too. And I've always been earning considerably less, for any one arguing that men get paid more. In the job I have been in the longest so far, I was earning exactly half of what those women were earning for me to do all their work (not part of my job description) while they sat at their desks and gossiped... on the days they bothered to show up at all.

Obviously not all women do that, I work and have worked alongside many that are fantastic. But it's a lie to suggest that men are the only ones behaving badly in work environments and ridiculous to argue that there are reasons we should let bad behaviour by women slide.

No it's not fair to let women slide on bad behavior but that's not what the original post is about. It's about a woman supposedly writing about having to pick up the slack for her lazy male colleagues. Something I've had personal experience with and have observed long before that post was ever made. But whoever said the only option is to get out is correct. If women don't want to work in a culture that is sexist then they need to start companies of their own, grow them successfully and then hire whomever they want. If that means no hiring men then do it.

[quote] [R138] the article barely has a point. A 35hr week v a 40hr week does not a thesis make

It doesn’t have a point of you don’t read it or refuse to see it. Women duck in and out of the workforce. They tend to work fewer hours then men. They take years off. All of this done to raise children. Totally fine of course but don’t then go on to complain that you’re making less than men.

The idea that women of the same tenure doing the same job as men are only making 78% is utter bullshit.

Imagine being one of Roxane's colleagues, and it's your birthday on Friday and Roxane says: "Don't worry, I'll make a special birthday lunch for you and will even bake you something for your special day"...

Oh god, it's like living in bizarro world when articles like this get written. I just... what? And such weird lines in it:

[quote]I cook for myself and my partner, who does not cook. She makes two dishes, and she tells me with absolute sincerity, "I make really good popcorn." She also makes roast chicken, which is a real dish.

Er, yes, roast chicken is a real dish. This is news to..?

[quote]Ina just knows she's excellent and never apologizes for it, which I think is really useful for women. I appreciate that she had no problem claiming that excellence. There is no shame in it, and I wish more people would be like that.

Except for men of course, because then it's constant cries of "Lord give me the confidence of a mediocre white man".

Ugh, Roxane and I are closer to being on the same side, politically. I wish I could like her more, but she makes it very difficult.

[quote]"Lord give me the confidence of a mediocre white man".

As annoying as she is, this is funny. And, if you added the word straight, you gay guys would agree.

I wouldn't. I'm not keen on these kind of divisive sayings, personally.

"Lord give me the confidence of a mediocre white woman".

Everything about this woman is hypocritical. I remember seeing her on a panel discussion once where she started off saying women shouldn't have to take men's feelings into consideration when they make any decisions in life (very fair point) and by the end was telling women not to do certain things because men would react a certain way. She can't form a coherent argument to save her life, which is why it's so baffling she is considered an expert on so many topics and always being asked for her opinion.

R151 lives in bizarro world if he thinks mediocre women have self esteem at all.

Mediocre women have far more self-esteem than mediocre men.

Like I said, R154, you're living in bizarro world. There's a reason all those idiotic white men vote for Trump and Repugs all the time. Because they are so fucking special that they know they, one day, will be rich and powerful and they vote for the party that will give them a tax break when the world finally recognizes their greatness. Every last one of them.

Hey guys, I think we should just ignore this one poster who is constantly arguing with every post everyone else is making. They'll never stop because they just want to have the last word, no matter how well put together all the rest of y'all's posts are, and how nonsensical what they are saying is. I think I recognize this poster from other threads too, it's just useless engaging with them. They will continually make claims about other posters' beliefs and opinions without knowing what they are talking about, trying to cast them in a bad light because they have no argument themselves.

Let's just get back to mocking good ol' Roxane and her terrible writing.

R143, there you go again. Maybe repeating myself was appropriate earlier. Please point out the anecdotes you accuse r141 of using. Or maybe you should look up the definition first.

Of course you can’t do it. All you do is characterize other people the way you wish them to be. Then you dismiss them based upon your conflated version of their stance simply because you cannot engage in healthy debate.

You can’t do better than that. You have proven it over and over. Sorry.

Logic is part of the patriarchy!

Down with logic!

[quote]Women duck in and out of the workforce. They tend to work fewer hours then men. They take years off. All of this done to raise children. Totally fine of course but don’t then go on to complain that you’re making less than men.

The vast majority of Datalounge eldercranks demand women do all the housework and childcare. Most of society is the same way.

But then society penalizes women for "ducking in and out of work" like they're playing hooky. No, they're doing the job you say they're supposed to do, because they're women.

And again, none of you even once consider that most women work at jobs that are NOT in an office and that you can NOT just leave early at. Women working at grocery stores or Walmarts or in factories or at restaurants don't get flexible work hours, they can't work from home, they can't leave early every Thursday. They don't "duck in and out of the work force" at all.

The fact that none of you will even acknowledge that part of the equation shows you aren't commenting in good faith.

[quote]I'd like to have a long, long talk about all the times that I am expected to pick up the team workload and stay late to finish/fix up my female colleague's projects, deliverables and deadlines because they have "kid stuff" that is so important they can't do their jobs.

Then do it. Then grow a fucking pair and go talk to your boss about it! Stand up for yourself instead of whining on Datalounge about how you're the victim of cruel, cruel misandry.

There one is one man-hating dyke on this thread and she's doing everything to make excuses for fraus.

What world are you living in r159? One where the eldergays of DL define the modern split of household responsibilities in people raising children? Again, I am no spring chicken (older GenX), but even my contemporaries and I don’t expect the women to absorb all these responsibilities when both spouses work. Nor would the wives/mothers tolerate it.

It is just as common to see men have to leave work to handle family emergencies as it is women. I know I did it when we had young kids. But I had the job where I could come back and finish my responsibilities after my wife got off work. She didn’t have that luxury until later in her career. And while you might dismiss that as an anecdote, it is actually a trend. Especially with many women doing better career wise than their spouses today.

So quit arguing about last century stereotypes and join the rest of us in the modern world. I am sorry women have it better today than you did in your prime. Trust me, bitter is not becoming.

It's not about what you personally expect or have experienced, R162, and I am baffled that someone as old as you would really believe that "Well *I* don't expect it!" somehow means that society as a whole doesn't expect it.

Let me know if you ever want to actually post any statistics that back up your claims. Until then, you're not worth talking to.

Speaking of stats, here's a few:

Jobs dominated by women. How many of these teachers and healthcare workers do you think can just "play the woman card" and duck out any old time they want?

Coronavirus child-care crisis will set women back a generation:

Studies show women are 10% more productive at their jobs than men:

Women in majority-male workplaces report higher rates of gender discrimination

Women have made great strides in the workplace, but inequality persists. The issue of equal pay is still a hot-button topic. The US Census Bureau reports that women earn 80 percent of what men are paid.

Dykes will always side with straight women over gay men.

There's a few links with info for ya. There are more at this place called Google. You should check it out.

While you're all warming up your bitching fingers, getting ready to scream at me that Harvard, WaPo and Pew are terrible sources and that you know the real truth, which you will reveal in a poorly written anecdote, a suggestion: instead of spending hours on Datalounge complaining about women, or trashing lesbians, or screaming about immigrants, or yelling about whatever group it is that you like to yell about, how about you take a few seconds to figure out what exactly is making you so miserable and deal with that?

Constantly complaining about various demographics doesn't make you feel better; if it did, you wouldn't have to keep coming back and doing it day in and day out, year after year.

So, anyway, about that cunt Roxane Gay.

What a cunt she is!

[quote] [R151] lives in bizarro world if he thinks mediocre women have self esteem at all.

I'm not r152, but this is not a bizarre statement. I've met plenty of women who think they are smart and superior to others simply because they have a degree. Even if they scraped through schools with mediocre grades or barely practiced in their career, as long as they have the degree or job title, they are better than others.

I know plenty of mediocre fraus who really seem to believe they should be selling more cookbooks than Ina Garten because they can whip up a cake from a box mix. They totally believe themselves to be sages and deserving of global fame. Seriously.

I don't know any men who think like that.

Just fuck off R160. Interesting that you blame ME for the bad behavior of my colleagues as if it's my fault that they are unable to do their jobs. I have already spoken to my manager about the situation several times over several years and the last time I did, she suggested I "get another job".

She's a [bold]real[/bold] cunt. Just like you. Are you her?

There wouldn't be a Datalounge if people did that R170.

One of the problems we're having with current culture is that everyone, absolutely everyone, thinks they're special because they have 200 followers on social media. It's not a gender thing, everyone of any gender thinks they're going to make it big by posting something on TikTok. No one wants to admit they're mediocre.

Nope. It's women. I don't know any men who think the world is interested in every thought of theirs, but I do know plenty of women like that.

Oh my. Somebody got their buttons pushed. Funny how you dismiss other people’s links and then try to preempt criticism of your own. It’s great sport watching you twist in the wind. I love how you had those stale links at the ready. Your such a cute little keyboard warrior.

No. I think I’m done with you. I never complained about women or more specifically, lesbians. And I have certainly never said anything derogatory about immigrants. So since you have been reduced to making things up, I will move on now.

Believe it or not, more than one person disagrees with you on here. I’m just the more reasonable one. Which probably explains why I get under your skin so. And while it’s been fun, it hasn’t been that fun.

I don’t have any meetings till 10, so I am going for a run in the park. I think it would do you some good to step away and get some air too.

I wish you the best of luck.

Not to turn this into a job advice thread but if your boss really did say to either do extra work for others or leave your job, then maybe you should consider leaving? That's a terrible workplace.

I worked in insurance and brokerage and both companies encouraged women to take the lower lesser-paid jobs while men like me got fast tracked to promotions. It was obvious.

You know how businesses are always trying to cut bennies and salaries? They can with women because they can let them leave 15 minutes early here and there in exchange for paying them less.

The thing is my supervisors were always upfront about that. They said that they respected the way childcare worked in this day and age and that some people were expected to work the full hours and overtime while moms weren't expected to as often. This was also true of men who had health problems or in one case a major side hobby that involved a lot of travel. There was flexibility but at a price. The people who did the extra work got consideration for raises and promotions.

If you're really not getting acknowledgement for doing extra work or being told the truth about why you're getting extra work, then you need another job. This isn't about gender equality.

[quote]Somebody got their buttons pushed.

You're the "hysteria blinders" guy though, right? You've been turned up to 11 for two days on this thread, arguing with everyone.

The lesbians though will claim that women leaving early doesn't happen but it should.

R13--Wants a plush jack off room to make up for the tragic unfairness of women who need to pump breastmilk (so much fun!) at work to feed their babies when they go home. The disparity of perks in the workplace really keeps men down!

What a friendless, put-upon little turd troll.

Don't have children then.

All you hateful fucks are beneath contempt.

Right backatcha, Dyke.

R182--If only your mom had taken that advice!

Roxane Gay can be annoying and a shitty writer, and discrimination can exist. Both can be true.

I’ve worked in male and female environments. I prefer male, because you can question someone without feelings getting hurt. Female bosses prioritized being friends, and males prioritized work and competition.

Females can be just as toxic as males in the workplace and frequently are. Crying to get out of things is the fucking worst. And that’s intentional manipulation.

R186 Women tend to take criticism more personally than men, which sometimes works in their favor. They take fewer chances and are more reliable in the long run. It can be a pain in the ass to get guys to do certain things because they are a lot less neurotic about how they are perceived. But when men are focused on a task at hand, the task will be completed competently and men are usually the ones to improvise, think fast on their feet, and offer the best new ideas. There are definitely trade offs in how men and women function in a work environment. I truly believe there is a biological basic for this.

[quote]So since you have been reduced to making things up, I will move on now.

Yep, this poster has a habit of making ridiculous claims about the beliefs of those who disagree with them (their writing style is so similr to a poster who has appeared on a couple of other threads like this that I believe it's the same person). If you have a different opinion you're considered a white supremacist, a misogynist, any type of bigot really, in their eyes. It isn't lost on me that this should happen in a thread dedicated to Roxane Gay, because that is a classic Roxane arguing technique.

Roxane wants everyone to know: "Mission Accomplished!"

[quote]I get the best letters. A surprising number of men are very, very upset that I used the phrase man babies" in my column. This guy! "As a new subscriber to the NYT, I am amazed at how oriented the content is toward women." MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

From the comment section: "For millenia women have been demeaned by men in and out of the workplace. Men have brought this upon themselves. I have a hard time finding sympathy for them. Payback is never easy". This is just psychopathy masquerading as liberalism.

Lesbians really hate men with a passion -- and Roxane isn't even one of the worst of them!

It's really only upper middle class white women who have all these gripes. White women from poor backgrounds and POC women can hold their own and don't need don't need management or the NYT *cough* daddy *cough* to mediate their social grievances. If someone asked my sister to take notes, she'd tell them to shove off instead of experiencing crippling neuroses and whining to prestige media.

[quote]Payback is never easy

This is the nub of the arguments made by people like Roxane and her friends. They don't really want a better, more equitable society. They want to invert things, to be in the position of oppressor themselves against people who even remotely remind them of the people who used to oppress them. It's just a real mess.

I know it's really unfair and frustrating to think we may have to draw a line under things and move forward when so much pain has been caused to people in the past, but I'm not sure I can think of a better way of doing it. I'm open to ideas!

R192= classic misogynist

R194 Typical WASPY white woman. Your tears are useless here, begone white woman!

Notice how when you specifically criticize WHITE women, white women will cry about misogyny. Black women are sick of your shit too.

I still want to know why Roxane Gay is the NY Times workplace advice columnist when she has never worked in a corporate environment.

One thing that drives me batshit about women in the workplace is that they bring their personal lives into work and think the office is an extension of their kitchen table or their book club meetings. No, I don't want to hear your life story. I don't want to hear about your home life, your husband, you kids, your extended family.

Maybe it's my Nordic/Germanic background, but when I'm at work, I'm at work. My personal life is separate and I don't mix the two. It is very regimented and I can't stand it when people won't shut the fuck up about their personal/family lives in the office.

R197 - agreed, this is the big question!

R198 - I'm similar to you, my work life and social life are very separate, and I don't understand why people would want to mix them. It seems like doing so means you never get any down town. My country's work-life balance is based on the idea of 8hrs of work, 8hrs of play, 8hrs of sleep. And I very jealously guard those 8hrs of play, haha!

^That should read "down time" not "down town"! Hahahaha!

R196, if you're male, you're not really in a place to tell any women not to complain about misogyny.

R198. One thing I like about working from home is that I no longer have to tolerate peoples' "fur babies" in the office. If you need to bring your dog to work, then don't have a fucking dog. I don't care about Han Solo/Bellla's (the dogs are inevitable named after children's pop culture characters) or their special bone meal diets. The fewer 'things' from home people bring to the office, the better.

R201 As a white woman, you are one of the most privileged people on earth. Everyone want you to shut up regardless.

Totally R187, I've seen it first hand. Women are DEFINITELY worried more about how they are perceived and it makes them more risk averse. They tow the line more and are very reliable and competent as a rule. HOWEVER it becomes a minefield to navigate their feelings and they stress out way more too, which can hinder progress. Men are lazier, but more laissez-faire. Women are more competent, but burn out faster and harder.

It's sort of obvious from the immediate angry responses that a lot of posters are familiar with this woman's stuff. I don't read the NYT so I'd never heard of her before but the advice she gave is pretty sound. If a coworker isn't doing their job then let them fail, delegate specific tasks instead of having people "collaborate" and if it doesn't get done on time or properly then you know who's at fault. How is this so egregious?

If you've not heard of her before then you wouldn't see the article in context and how it fits in to Roxane's whole raison d'être, most likely. It's actually even more insidious when you realize people who aren't aware of her may pick up an article of hers and think it seems fair enough on the surface. Oh, one thing to point out if you don't know of her is that she is actually a huge bully who has tried to ruin the careers of a number of people out there (generally white women authors). She's very well known for continually going on the attack, only to be called out for being wrong about the person she's attacking and then deleting any of her troubled statements and pretending it never happened or giving a half hearted "I GUESS I'm sorry then guys, GOD!" type apology.

Plus, she has no expertise in this area, or the majority of areas she speaks on, and yet is continually invited to talk on them, which I think just weirds a lot of people out. I'd say most of the responses I've seen regarding her are joking around and being sarcastic more than being angry (when it comes to Roxane herself, most find her pathetic and ridiculous, not anger-inducing, I'd say). It's just where the conversation devolved to where people started getting angry.

Hmm, seems like Roxane may need to write in to her own column for some advice!

[quote]This publication is a year late in paying me and... I don't even know. Like, clearly, I should let it go but also, I did the work! Pay me!

Its rare outside STEM to encounter women in team meetings who effiennetly move through the business at hand. I highly doubt there is any research that women complete more to team success than men.

efficiently

R209 how ineffiennet of you.

R208 just to really hammer it home you also misused ‘highly’ and I think when you wrote ‘complete’ you probably meant ‘contribute’. While we’re at it ‘move through’ sounds clunky. But tell us more about the failings of women. You also missed your apostrophe in ‘it’s’. Last one (and this is a guess albeit an educated one), you didn’t check to see if that research exists did you?

R211 why don't you link it, vagina dollface. Thx hun.

Oh and grab us some coffees with that research, would you doll? Thnx hon. Vanessa, you'll continue takin' the minutes, thx. Where were we?

Get ready, DL. Roxane is putting out calls for work-related questions!

[quote]If you have work-related questions, you can send them to me at workfriend@nytimes.com. I'm ready to give you answers!

"Dear Work Friend: I work next to someone the size of a medium-sized hippo. That's not the real issue: the problem is that she's an absolute cunt to everyone who approaches her. On top of that, she's not half as smart as she thinks she is. And her gawdawful attempts at cookery have put everyone off the office microwave. Oh, Work Friend, what do I do?"

Oh go on, R215! I dare you! 😂

By all means, be sure to make it known you’re “difficult” to work with. Wonderful advice! Your boss will be thrilled to have a report like that!

R215,

"She's always lecturing the rest of the office to "be better" and complaining about racism and sexism in the workplace. Meanwhile, she has attempted to get two colleagues fired for no other reason we can see except that they are white women."