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I listened to the "Follies" cast album for the first time. And I don't get it.

This isn't a troll post, I promise. I've seen so many DLers post about Follies that I always meant to listen to it. Now that I have I don't get why everyone here loves it so much. What did I miss?

by Anonymousreply 141November 17, 2020 6:13 AM

The point OP.

by Anonymousreply 1October 23, 2020 12:13 PM

Which cast?

I can't convince you it's great, but....it is. See it in context.

J actually recently had a friend say seeing it in person left them underwhelmed because so many of the songs had become standards that they had already heard various versions of them. I was lucky enough to go into the show blind and absolutely fell in love with it.

by Anonymousreply 2October 23, 2020 12:16 PM

You're not missing anything, OP. It's a fine musical that has reached cult status on DL.

by Anonymousreply 3October 23, 2020 12:21 PM

If you are listening to the original Broadway cast recording, it is a bit of a disappointment, fabulous for individual performances, but lacking in the grand feeling of what the show is on stage. The best recording is definitely the Paper Mill recording where you get to hear that fabulous opening in all its glory as well as songs that were cut, some used in other productions as well as several of the Sondheim revues. Also check out "Follies in Concert" which gives a great backstage glimpse into the many personalities involved (especially Stritch) and has edited but memorable clips of the actual show. My only complaint about that is Mandy Pantinkan who trashed the role of Buddy, and some of the shrill elements of Carol Burnett's singing even though she is perfect for the part and ultimately triumphs.

by Anonymousreply 4October 23, 2020 12:23 PM

But alas, with the Paper Mill you have to listen to Donna singing flat.

by Anonymousreply 5October 23, 2020 12:25 PM

It has hit and miss songs. There's great songs like Could I Leave You and Losing My Mind are amazing, but then there's annoying vaudevillian filler numbers that bug me.

The obsession with Follies is less about the musical itself and more about Sondheim, old Broadway, and both of those things being a big piece of gay culture.

by Anonymousreply 6October 23, 2020 12:27 PM

A lot of people find the storyline depressing, but I find it intriguing because it is about people leading phony existences through having facades that hide who they are really, hence Phyllis's songs "The Story of Lucy & Jessie" and the alternate, "Ah But Underneath!" which was used in Paper Mill because Dee Hoty didn't have the dancing skills that Alexis Smith and Jan Maxwell did. I saw the 2001 revival where Blythe Danner was great acting and singing, but she was given the worst choreography. The 2002 Reprise in L.A. had Patty Duke as Phyllis and was embarrassing. Teeny tiny Neely supposed to be a tall glamorous chorus girl...Yeah right.

by Anonymousreply 7October 23, 2020 12:40 PM

The Pittsburgh CLO had "As the World Turns" legend Kathryn Hays as Phyllis in the early 1980's. Not once did she call anyone "kiddo" or "toots". Totally disappointed! A stock production featured the original Adelaide, Vivian Blaine, as Phyllis, right after she had closed "Company" on Broadway as Joanne. That production featured Selma Diamond singing "Broadway Baby". (Well maybe not singing....)

by Anonymousreply 8October 23, 2020 12:45 PM

I agree that the OBC recording doesn’t capture the show at all, and feels very threadbare. I was too young to see the original on Broadway and I’ve found the revivals, including the recent at the National, disappointing at best.

However, the OBC is worth it for Dorothy Collins alone. An absolutely extraordinary vocal performance across the board. It blows me away she lost the Tony which is a real shame since here’s stands the rest of time and everyone else just... fades.

by Anonymousreply 9October 23, 2020 12:52 PM

*her’s stands the test of time*

by Anonymousreply 10October 23, 2020 12:53 PM

She's still "her".

by Anonymousreply 11October 23, 2020 12:54 PM

Follies is an amazing story, some of the songs suck but they suck in a way that fits for what the intention was. It is a depressing ass musical, but good luck naming a Sondheim show that isn't. You have to really like tragedy to like shows like Follies.

by Anonymousreply 12October 23, 2020 1:00 PM

The only song I've ever heard from that show is I'm Still Here. It's a great song but it must be the only memorable one . Then again, I'm a bad gay because I hate musicals, so what do I know?

by Anonymousreply 13October 23, 2020 1:02 PM

R13 I love musicals but I hear you. Years ago at the West Hollywood Gay Pride Parade (long before it became a circus), two very butch lesbians had matching T-Shirts that said "Dykes who love showtunes". We should make one that says "Gay Man who hates musicals". I think both would be great sellers.

by Anonymousreply 14October 23, 2020 1:08 PM

r8

it would have to been almost 10 years or so since Company closed early in 1972 but I would have loved to see/hear Kim Hughes in Follies!

by Anonymousreply 15October 23, 2020 2:04 PM

The Pittsburgh CLO "Follies" was 1983 actually. My mistake.

Interesting ensemble.

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by Anonymousreply 16October 23, 2020 2:12 PM

R10 Hers, not her's. The word her's is ALWAYS incorrect. No possessive pronoun EVER gets an apostrophe. These words are very thrifty and they NEVER buy accessories.

Mine

Yours

His

Hers

Its

Ours

Theirs

by Anonymousreply 17October 23, 2020 2:46 PM

My ex and I saw it at the Papermill, and were frankly quite bored by the whole thing. An out-of-town guest was determined to see it, so sprang for our three tickets; he loved it.

by Anonymousreply 18October 23, 2020 2:55 PM

I listened to the original Broadway cast album. It just seemed lifeless. I thought maybe because of my age (26) it might be a generational thing. I guess I made a mistake. :(

I'll give the other recs a listen. Thanks!!

by Anonymousreply 19October 23, 2020 2:59 PM

R19 Many shows seem to improve in people's minds as they get older and understand the theme more because of personal experiences. The young Phyllis and Sally are quite different than the ones attending the reunion as are Ben and Buddy. That is the point of James Goldman's book. Ironically, I saw "Curvy Widow" which is about Goldman's wife who has kept great tabs on her husband's work while continuing to have a very active "social life". Nancy Opel played the role and was very good, and afterwards, Barbara Goldman came out and did a Q&A. She's quite a feisty senior and very funny!

by Anonymousreply 20October 23, 2020 3:25 PM

I've never understood the notion that you can't appreciate the score from the original Broadway cast recording. I'm a child of the 80s and 90s. Born way too late to have seen Follies or truly have first-hand experience with the cultural references and allusions, but it didn't stop me from appreciating Sondheim's gorgeous pastiche score.

The only production I've seen is the most recent Broadway revival. I loved the big, lush orchestra and several of the performances, though, found the show overall, pretty dated and messy. These days, people in such misery would have gotten divorced years earlier and moved on, so these tortured souls seem silly and maudlin. But, that doesn't stop me from appreciating that beautiful music.

by Anonymousreply 21October 23, 2020 3:29 PM

Read Everything Was Possible, OP. It will will put the show in context for you. You may not like the show still, but you'll have a better appreciation of where it fits in our musical theater history. I've been an ardent FOLLIES fan since 1971, but I understand why some people don't like it. One of the problems (and mystique) of it is that it really is one of those "You had to see the original production" shows. In 1971 it was in real time. There was a poignancy in the casting choices and Hal and the big-budgeted designers were at the top of their game.

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by Anonymousreply 22October 23, 2020 3:38 PM

[quote] shrill elements of Carol Burnett's singing even though she is perfect for the part and ultimately triumphs.

She was not perfect for the part. Carlotta is a desirable sexpot. Carol is the polar opposite of that.

by Anonymousreply 23October 23, 2020 3:39 PM

OP, see if you can find the video of the most recent London production from the National Theatre. It's been linked a couple of times on the Theatre Gossip threads. That is the closest to perfection we will see in this generation. If after watching the entire production, you still don't like it, then that's fine. But you have to see the songs in action in a good production.

by Anonymousreply 24October 23, 2020 3:44 PM

Most of us who first fell in love with FOLLIES from the OBC didn't need to see a full production or hear the complete score to be overwhelmed. There's so much to appreciate in those 50+ minutes that it merely whet our appetite for more.

by Anonymousreply 25October 23, 2020 3:46 PM

The early 1970's was a very trying time socially and politically, but there was a sense of nostalgia on TV and in the movies and on Broadway. It was the end of "The Ed Sullivan Show", but there were still big TV specials like "Dames at Sea" and movies like "The Boy Friend" which had a brief run as a Broadway revival. Broadway also revived "On the Town" and revised "No No Nanette" which was a surprise hit. "Follies" invokes nostalgia because of the pastiche involved and even though its plot is very serious, the second act really wowed the audience who got it. Friends of mine who saw the original production said that there was nothing like it ever on Broadway and were impressed with the last revival. When they revived it for the Paper Mill Playhouse, it was the one out of town show that many New Yorkers had to rush to. A book described how a gay man took the train out there to see it and when he got there asked someone how to get to the theater. "Follow the line of gay men" he was told. I've seen three live productions and various bootlegs, including footage of the original production which has been dubbed over with the original production. I don't think there's a middle ground with "Follies". People either love the book or hate it, either are sick of the score or can't get enough, and every fan has their particular favorite production. Looking at the list of various Phyllis's and Sally's in the Ovtur website, it's a who's who of gay legends, everybody from Julie Wilson and Anne Jeffreys to Maxene Andrews, Karen Morrow, John Raitt and Shani Wallis.

by Anonymousreply 26October 23, 2020 3:48 PM

Was Mary McCarty a dancer...

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by Anonymousreply 27October 23, 2020 7:56 PM

R6 I object. I'm obsessed neither with Sondheim nor old Broadway. I just saw the show and loved it.

by Anonymousreply 28October 24, 2020 3:38 PM

Follies is the exclusive property of older New York theater queens. DL is one place where the obsession is all too frequently displayed.

by Anonymousreply 29October 24, 2020 4:27 PM

And yet r29, we find you here on this very thread devoted to Follies.

by Anonymousreply 30October 24, 2020 5:34 PM

Good old Niskayuna High!

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by Anonymousreply 31October 24, 2020 5:55 PM

r31 What the hell is a "vocal preparateur?"

by Anonymousreply 32October 24, 2020 6:59 PM

Warm-ups leader? Everybody gets to participate!

by Anonymousreply 33October 24, 2020 7:15 PM

Mater Dei's Award-Winning production!

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by Anonymousreply 34October 24, 2020 7:26 PM

R27. No, she was a lesbian. Margaret Lindsay was her girlfriend

by Anonymousreply 35October 24, 2020 10:59 PM

... I saw that Niskayuna production ... such a small world.

by Anonymousreply 36October 24, 2020 11:42 PM

She may have been a lesbian, r35, but that doesn't preclude her being a dancer...

by Anonymousreply 37October 25, 2020 1:23 AM

Hey, everyone! Mary's been cast in FOLLIES!

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by Anonymousreply 38October 25, 2020 3:10 PM

Would Dianne Wiest make a good DeeDee West?

by Anonymousreply 39October 26, 2020 4:01 PM

Willkommen

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by Anonymousreply 40October 27, 2020 9:15 PM

OP This is the National Theater Follies.

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by Anonymousreply 41October 27, 2020 9:42 PM

I'm way too young to understand any of the references in Follies and wasn't even born yet when the original production was on Broadway. I don't like vaudeville or any of the big pizzazz and dance numbers of the pre-60's American entertainment business, but I still love Follies. I love it for the same reason I love all of Sondheim's musicals: it is utterly, utterly depressing.

The story is a well written tale of a timeless story: miserable elderly people clinging to their youth because they hate how their lives turned out. The truth is the story doesn't even have to be a musical. You could remove all of the songs and just have it be a play or a movie and it would still be amazing.

But in order to like it you have to REALLY like depressing stories. Otherwise it'll make you blow your brains out.

by Anonymousreply 42October 27, 2020 10:41 PM

Thank you for sharing, r42.

by Anonymousreply 43October 27, 2020 11:27 PM

[quote]These words are very thrifty and they NEVER buy accessories.

Mary's!

by Anonymousreply 44October 27, 2020 11:38 PM

I love that German company's staging of Beautiful Girls @ R40

by Anonymousreply 45October 28, 2020 12:00 AM

I did listen to "Merrily We Roll Along" last night. I loved it!

by Anonymousreply 46October 28, 2020 12:06 AM

It *is* a great listen, r46.

by Anonymousreply 47October 28, 2020 12:29 AM

Follies probably requires more than one listen, OP.

One of the jokes in Merrily is that Sondheim was always accused of not writing tunes that stick in your head, so in that show you get quite a few, with reprises and all. Follies is one of the earlier shows where they're harder to catch onto, but when you do it's worth the effort.

I second the view you should watch R41's link while it's available. (Don't delay.) Beautifully filmed as well as staged.

by Anonymousreply 48October 28, 2020 12:50 AM

After 35 years in Manhattan I saw my first “show” ever which was My Fair Lady at Lincoln Center. I went only to see Diana Rigg. I swear I’ll never sit through another musical again. I dislike them that much. I gave it the old college try but I too am not a good fag.

by Anonymousreply 49October 28, 2020 1:04 AM

It's important that your FOLLIES production have bad wigs...

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by Anonymousreply 50October 28, 2020 1:20 AM

Oh well, you don;t get it. Move on to something else. No skin off my nose!

by Anonymousreply 51October 28, 2020 1:29 AM

r48 I will!

by Anonymousreply 52October 28, 2020 1:31 AM

Two pieces of music that always cheer me up are Sondheim's openings to "Follies" and "A Little Night Music" that are very similar in theme. There is a little twist that comes in both that are very subtle. The haunting theme of the Follies girls walking in the beginning is very ghost like, and then "bam!" they start to come in as they are now, and the music goes from soft and gentle to jazzy and upbeat. The opening of "A Little Night Music" is very subtle throughout, and while I could easily do without the "la la la's" of the couples walking around, the twist that happens musically hits an emotion I can't explain. Both pieces of music used in the "Follies" opening (best heard on the Paper Mill cast album) were cut as songs, and when you hear them, you can understand why. There's an awkwardness to them with lyrics that when done just as an instrumental piece is gorgeous.

by Anonymousreply 53October 28, 2020 1:10 PM

Which Sondheim musical should I listen to next?

by Anonymousreply 54October 28, 2020 1:19 PM

R54 Bookmark "Follies" with the shows that preceded and followed it: "Company" and "A Little Night Music".

While Richard Rodgers wrote the music, "Do I Hear a Waltz" is also interesting. "We're Gonna Be All Right" is very similar to "Love Will See Us Through", and the character of Leona in "Do I Hear a Waltz" is very similar to Sally.

by Anonymousreply 55October 28, 2020 1:24 PM

r54

Company loses something since so much is cut but definitely worth it

by Anonymousreply 56October 28, 2020 1:46 PM

I saw Follies with Bernadette Peters, Jan Maxwell (who was phenomenal) and Elaine Paige (meh.) Loved some of the songs but disliked the actual book which is mostly heterosexual marriage angst. Barbara Cook sang "Losing My Mind" better than anyone could.

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by Anonymousreply 57October 28, 2020 1:58 PM

The problem with "I'm Still Here" is that the lyrics were plausible for 1971, when there was still a memory of the late 1920s and 1930s, but now nobody has any memory of that era. Maybe they could update the lyrics now for people recalling the 1960s and 1970s. Because what was forty years ago then and forty years ago now are very different things.

by Anonymousreply 58October 28, 2020 2:04 PM

[quote]Maybe they could update the lyrics now for people recalling the 1960s and 1970s. Because what was forty years ago then and forty years ago now are very different things.

Not until they update The Odyssey to incorporate something relevant like a Carnival cruise ship.

by Anonymousreply 59October 28, 2020 2:18 PM

I don't think the angst is heterosexual, r57, I think it's universal to everyone when one reaches middle age and beyond. Looking back. Questioning our choices in life. Did we take the right path? I'm telling you this now, so I don't have to tell you later. Never...fucking ...look...back.

by Anonymousreply 60October 28, 2020 2:27 PM

Darles la bienvenida!

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by Anonymousreply 61October 28, 2020 2:33 PM

Sorry, Sally, Broadway doesn't go for...

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by Anonymousreply 62October 28, 2020 3:14 PM

The Anti-FOLLIES

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by Anonymousreply 63October 28, 2020 3:15 PM

Another gay guy here (I'm in my forties) who's never been into musical theater, except for a few individual songs from a few shows. I really tried to get into musical theater, but it just wasn't my thing.

That being said, I think I'm Still Here is a very moving song. Even though the era being evoked is long before my time, I still understood the references. All that's being referenced in the song is not obscure, the historical events should be known to anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the major events of the 30s and 40s.

by Anonymousreply 64October 28, 2020 3:53 PM

There's nothing wrong with that, r64. You may not like musical theater in general, but given the breadth of styles and structures through the years, I'm surprised there isn't one or two out of the canon that you might like. I'm not partial to opera, but there's a few contemporary ones from the last century that I've enjoyed.

by Anonymousreply 65October 28, 2020 4:26 PM

R48 - how is it "hard" to catch onto the melodies in the Follies score? I can understand not responding to the show dramatically - it's of (and about) a very specific period in the culture. But that score is one gorgeous tune after another. I never understand this notion that his music is "challenging" to get into.

by Anonymousreply 66October 28, 2020 9:18 PM

I love the concert version. And the Papermill verison. And the OBC. And the version with Bernadette. They are all good in different ways. I had listened to OBC for many year and then was lucky enough to see the Papermill version, which was fantastic. It helped me understand the story.

The filmed version of the recent London production is good.

by Anonymousreply 67October 28, 2020 9:30 PM

It's pretty antiquated. You're like "why didn't these assholes just get a divorce if they hated each other so much?"

by Anonymousreply 68October 28, 2020 11:07 PM

It's only 50 years old, r68. It has to be 100 years before it's an antique.

by Anonymousreply 69October 28, 2020 11:59 PM

They don't hate each other, r68. That's a facile assessment.

by Anonymousreply 70October 29, 2020 12:01 AM

No prob OP, you just dpn't have the taste for it. I feel the same way about Pacifici Overtures.

by Anonymousreply 71October 29, 2020 12:02 AM

It's antiquated. And entertainers got divorced all the time even way back in those days. Weird that they would all stay together.

by Anonymousreply 72October 29, 2020 12:59 AM

[quote]It's pretty antiquated. You're like "why didn't these assholes just get a divorce if they hated each other so much?"

I used to say that about "Everybody Loves Raymond."

by Anonymousreply 73October 29, 2020 1:04 AM

Well, r72, one can overthink just about anything until it seems weird. Also, Ben, Phyllis, Sally and Buddy *weren't* entertainers.

by Anonymousreply 74October 29, 2020 1:22 AM

OP, give a listen to Pacific Overtures -my favorite Sondheim show and score. OBC -stay away from the revival or the English National Opera versions.

As for Follies, I discovered the show through the original Broadway cast album and fell in love. The songs had so much feeling -love, rage, despair... The plot synopsis that was included wasn't all that helpful, and it took years to track down a script (it was published, but out of print). Once I could finally read it I was shocked at just how much of the score went unrecorded. The LP didn't even include "One More Kiss" -which was recorded, but there was no room for it on a single LP. One of the show's tragedies is that it should have had a two-disc recording, but Capitol Records did it on the cheap. The original mixing was dreadful, too. If you get Bruce Kimmel's remixed and remastered recording it'a a revelation!

I saw the original London production, and all of the major US revivals. A good production takes you on a roller coaster journey. The older you are, and the more you have experienced love, and its loss, the wilder the trip. I think it's wrong to label Sondheim's shows as depressing. They are just painfully honest about relationships and emotions. Nothing is sugar-coated or given the obligatory happy ending. But they are truly beautiful works of art -very moving and they stick with you through the years.

by Anonymousreply 75October 29, 2020 1:53 AM

OP Company!

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by Anonymousreply 76October 29, 2020 7:10 PM

R76 - I know it has its detractors on here, but I LOVE that NY Phil Company production. It was so well cast. It was great that the book scenes got so much love in that concert, too.

by Anonymousreply 77October 29, 2020 7:12 PM

Follies is as "old queen" as Barbra Streisand. The two staples.

by Anonymousreply 78October 29, 2020 7:12 PM

I assume you're using "old queen" as an honorific and not in a pejorative sense.

by Anonymousreply 79October 29, 2020 7:16 PM

I've always regarded "Eldergay" as an honorific for what we lived through. With Trump's new Supreme Court, I fear many gaylings are about to get an idea.

by Anonymousreply 80October 29, 2020 7:20 PM

I love how people who don't like musicals act like they deserve a fucking medal. Congratu-fucking-lations, queens. Now get on the next bus to Who Gives a Fuck.

by Anonymousreply 81October 29, 2020 9:13 PM

We all can use a laugh...

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by Anonymousreply 82October 30, 2020 1:14 AM

San Jose 1998

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by Anonymousreply 83October 31, 2020 10:18 PM

What the hell is Blythe doing in that clip? It's lucky Steve was potty about the director or he would have drowned him.

by Anonymousreply 84October 31, 2020 10:56 PM

Whaddya mean, what's she doing? Bumpin' into chorus boys...

by Anonymousreply 85October 31, 2020 11:50 PM

Instead of the Mirror number, they should have gone with something more authentic to the Folies of the day...

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by Anonymousreply 86November 2, 2020 1:30 AM

[quote]My ex and I saw it at the Papermill, and were frankly quite bored by the whole thing.

Savages.

You deserve to be alone!

by Anonymousreply 87November 2, 2020 1:50 AM

r87 the show is a relic. Much of it would go over the heads of modern audiences because they wouldn't get all the references. And why would these people not just get divorced, anyway?

by Anonymousreply 88November 2, 2020 1:54 AM

It's part of the Sondheim canon, r88. It'll keep getting staged...somewhere.

by Anonymousreply 89November 2, 2020 2:06 AM

[quote]And why would these people not just get divorced, anyway?

Because love dies slowly, that's the exquisite pain of it. It's hard to know when to stop loving. Hope and dreams die slowly as well, and to revisit them as they once were, honestly and without reservation, is one of the main universal themes of the show.

by Anonymousreply 90November 2, 2020 2:31 AM

Ben and Phyllis need each other. They'll never divorce.

by Anonymousreply 91November 2, 2020 2:37 AM

Why was Follies never made into a movie?

by Anonymousreply 92November 2, 2020 2:53 AM

I think Jennifer Lopez would be quite wonderful in it. And Adele. Adele and Cher both need Tony Awards to EGOT.

by Anonymousreply 93November 2, 2020 3:00 AM

I too saw it at Paper Mill and thought it so well intended, and some of the performances so fantastic, but overall missing the mark so widely.

For example, Donna McKechnie is still my favorite Sally, both vocally and dramatically, next to Dorothy Collins. (Not a popular opinion, btw.)

But my otherwise beloved Ann Miller was so, so off the mark singing I'm Still Here that I understood Forbidden Broadway portraying her singing I'm Still Weird.

As good as parts of it were, I understand The Widow Goldman not allowing it to transfer to Broadway, as was originally intended.

by Anonymousreply 94November 2, 2020 3:09 AM

[quote]Why was Follies never made into a movie?

It was in development as a commercial film several times over the years but never made it as far pre-production. Michael Bennett, for example, wanted to film it with the situation changed to old .film stars instead old Broadway stars, with Elizabeth Taylor and Debbie Reynolds proposed for Phyllis and Sally. That would have been fascinating, no?

The well received recent National Theater production in London was shot on video and seen widely and then was announced to be shot separately as a commercial film. But that was last year before Covid and I haven't heard anything about it since.

by Anonymousreply 95November 2, 2020 3:27 AM

They should've done this as a film in the 70s but instead of a theater closing it could've been a film studio. All the old battleaxes like Bette Davis, Katharine Hepburn and Barbara Stanwyck were still alive and working, it would've been a fantastic film.

by Anonymousreply 96November 2, 2020 3:31 AM

[quote]But my otherwise beloved Ann Miller was so, so off the mark singing I'm Still Here...

I saw her too and I disagree. The song is often sung as an internal semi-lament yet Miller sang it rather triumphantly, like a victory lap, which is supported by the lyrics. I remember her being on the money with her interpretation and she was wildly applauded by the audience. The bootleg does her no justice, she was excellent.

by Anonymousreply 97November 2, 2020 3:35 AM

R96, see my reply at r95. Filming it with old film stars on the sound stages of a closing studio was proposed several times, first by Michael Bennett. The financing never came through for those suggested projects.

by Anonymousreply 98November 2, 2020 3:39 AM

[quote]Instead of the Mirror number, they should have gone with something more authentic to the Folies of the day...

Thank god for triple threats r86.

by Anonymousreply 99November 2, 2020 7:43 AM

R14 that’s grand! As a dyke who loves showtunes, I certainly need one of those tees (and a girlfriend who feels the same).

Shamefacedly, though, I must confess I have not yet seen or heard a bit of FOLLIES, so I shall be exploring this thread in more detail.

As to why I haven’t seen it - I am a Zennial and not American, got into theatre late (at University), and am not a particular fan of Sondheim (while still appreciating his talent), but I know it’s still no excuse.

by Anonymousreply 100November 2, 2020 8:51 AM

Personally, r99, I think being able to perform in an amphibian style should be considered a threat all its own.

by Anonymousreply 101November 2, 2020 2:16 PM

I certainly feel threatened about it.

by Anonymousreply 102November 2, 2020 2:50 PM

Oh, r88, it went over the heads of a lot of people in 1971...and they got the references. As far as getting divorced , look up symbiotic relationships. I get that some people don't like FOLLIES. What I *don't* get is those who can't appreciate those of us who do. We know what the problems with the show are. We know that not any production of it will surmount all of them. I'm also aware that the majority of us were enthralled by it in 1971. When we die off...who knows?

*

2016 Broadway South Repertory Production

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by Anonymousreply 103November 2, 2020 3:27 PM

r97 - Oh Fanny, she got that applause because she was Ann freakin' Miller. She was too old for the role. Buddy and Carlotta are so tricky to cast because of who the roles were originally built around. Buddy has to be a dancer because of Nelson, and The Right Girl never made sense to me having Buddy being a terpsichorean dynamo when he wasn't a performer.

In Carlotta's case...well...you have to believe her name *is* Carlotta and that she was once a sloe-eyed vamp. Annie's personality was always gum-chewin' chorine...from Texas. Having said that, I was a contributor to that prolonged ovation - not because she was at all right for the role, but because she was Miss Ann freakin' Miller.

by Anonymousreply 104November 2, 2020 3:50 PM

Stephen Sondheim cried when he heard Ann Miller in rehearsals, kissed her hands and told her she that she WAS who I'm Still Here was written for. He gave her no notes.

by Anonymousreply 105November 2, 2020 3:58 PM

I believe the "Sondheim cried" part.

by Anonymousreply 106November 2, 2020 4:03 PM

[quote]you have to believe her name *is* Carlotta and that she was once a sloe-eyed vamp.

I don't know why I'd have trouble believing anyone's name was Carlotta. What an odd argument

The lyric is "First you're another sloe-eyed vamp"....of course Carlotta could be speaking broadly and not only of herself, but of course even if she is, Carlotta isn't Ann Miller's bio, she's her character's bio from 40 years earlier! How can that observation be valid? Marlon Brando wasn't Polish! He's from New Jersey!

You don't have to like every interpretation, but I thought hers was supported by the lyrics. The little scene with Carlotta and Mr. Weisman which seems to get cut often was nicely handled as well.

by Anonymousreply 107November 2, 2020 4:41 PM

[quote]In Carlotta's case...well...you have to believe her name *is* Carlotta and that she was once a sloe-eyed vamp. Annie's personality was always gum-chewin' chorine...from Texas.

Yvonne De Carlo was a blue-eyed Canadian named Margaret Middleton. Your point?

by Anonymousreply 108November 2, 2020 5:03 PM

r103 - Why do the showgirls wear colanders on their heads?

Were they planning on straining spaghetti?

by Anonymousreply 109November 2, 2020 5:09 PM

My point, r108, is that they changed her name to Yvonne De Carlo. Maybe she hadn't been exactly sloe-eyed, but she was certainly marketed at times as a vamp. Ann Miller...wasn't. Again, I loved seeing her up there, but she wasn't right for the role as written....mostly due to her age.

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by Anonymousreply 110November 2, 2020 6:11 PM

Yvonne was as gorgeous as Ava Gardner and Hedy Lamarr. There, I said it!

by Anonymousreply 111November 2, 2020 10:27 PM

There were plenty of second-tier beauties. Yvonne, Alexis, Lucille, and....such.

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by Anonymousreply 112November 2, 2020 11:27 PM

The high school at r50 is the best of the three schools posted here. It was first posted years ago, and I think the girls here did a great job with "Who's That Woman". Sure they're just kids in lousy wigs, but they still do this number quite well. They make the other two schools look pretty lame.

Somewhere there's the video of their Sally singing "Losing My Mind" and she was fantastic. I give them a lot of credit.

by Anonymousreply 113November 2, 2020 11:27 PM

[quote]I listened to the "Follies" cast album

Why ??

by Anonymousreply 114November 2, 2020 11:30 PM

I may have been the first to post that, r113. I remember finding it so lame, basically due to doing FOLLIES at their age. I posted the other high school productions as well. You're right. After seeing the others, I finally watched it again and looked at it with new eyes. They really did do a great job.

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by Anonymousreply 115November 2, 2020 11:38 PM

Why do eldergays act like Sondheim musicals are about great singers? He's on record as not preferring them. And he seldom cast them. Patti LuPone is the greatest Gypsy ever but that's not really his show is it?

Bernadette's voice is an acquired taste, but was lovely in Sunday in the Park. But she wasn't given a showstopper. Just lots of lovely moments. She was not cast in Follies until her voice was O V E R.

Liza was invited to sing a lot of Sondheim too. And lots of other people like her. Performers, not great singers. So why go on about beautiful high school vocal renditions of his non song, songs? Meryl Streep can't sing but Donna Murphy still had to sing half of her work Into The Woods. Because Sondheim music requires vocal presence and great annunciation. Not great voices. Streep has neither.

Yvonne De Carlo was as gorgeous as any woman on screen in the 1940s. But I guess she fucked too many of the wrong people and was probably a bit too carnal in her presentation. She was a tootsie from Vancouver who didn't hold out for the best men or parts. Ava Gardner was the most beautiful and sexual feline on earth, but the length or her neck and the elegance of her feline features, combined with a beautiful speaking voice saved her from being cast aside as a just a sloe eyed slutty vamp. She fucked who she wanted, when she wanted. But that didn't include her father or Louis B Mayer. (Hey Ann Miller)

When a great voice sings a great song, it can be a thrill. But Sondheim doesn't offer many great songs for great vocalists to sing. Except this one, by this one.

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by Anonymousreply 116November 3, 2020 12:36 AM

[quote]Liza was invited to sing a lot of Sondheim too. And lots of other people like her. Performers, not great singers.

Liza had some great moments, like And the World Goes Round. I wouldn't just call her a performer.

by Anonymousreply 117November 3, 2020 12:40 AM

[quote]Liza was invited to sing a lot of Sondheim too. And lots of other people like her. Performers, not great singers.

Liza had some great moments, like And the World Goes Round. I wouldn't just call her a performer.

by Anonymousreply 118November 3, 2020 12:41 AM

[quote] But Sondheim doesn't offer many great songs for great vocalists to sing.

You've got to be kidding.

by Anonymousreply 119November 3, 2020 12:42 AM

Ziegfeld Follies rehearsal

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by Anonymousreply 120November 3, 2020 12:52 AM

Meanwhile, in the West End...

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by Anonymousreply 121November 3, 2020 12:55 AM

[quote]Rhonda...now playing Phyllis at the Gates of Heaven Dinner Theater

There's a dinner theater for VAGINAS?

I can only imagine the appetizer menu.

by Anonymousreply 122November 3, 2020 8:20 AM

Sondheim isn't about vocals, his songs have always been about the content rather than the person singing them. Of course, the singer is important (Stay With Me from Into The Woods wouldn't have packed as much of a punch if it was sung by Gilbert Gottfried instead of Bernadette), but the lyrics are the things that make the songs stick.

by Anonymousreply 123November 3, 2020 1:59 PM

The imagery in I'm Still Here doesn't matter, it doesn't need to be updated. The song isn't relatable because it's about surviving the events of the 30's and 40's, it's relatable because it's about surviving. The audience is supposed to subconsciously glue their own life struggles over Carlotta's, anyways, because that's what makes it relatable and powerful. It's a song about getting through the worst parts of your life, whatever they may be, and surviving.

The 30's and 40's references can be kept because they're still understood today. Herbert Hoover wasn't unique to the 30's, every generation has had their Hoover. Look at Trump. And that's what I mean, the references still ring true today because each generation has had their own version of them.

by Anonymousreply 124November 3, 2020 2:03 PM

I'd really rather hear trained voices singing Now, Soon and Later, r123...

by Anonymousreply 125November 3, 2020 3:08 PM

Cut the Hoover number!

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by Anonymousreply 126November 3, 2020 3:10 PM

Keep the Hoover song, cut the rest of the show

by Anonymousreply 127November 3, 2020 7:49 PM

The films cut the song and we know how they turned out.

by Anonymousreply 128November 3, 2020 7:51 PM

Not to be mistaken with FOLLIES' Herbert Hoo-oo-oo-ver.

by Anonymousreply 129November 3, 2020 7:54 PM

The Beautiful Girls number always get them going

by Anonymousreply 130November 3, 2020 7:56 PM

Stephen Sondheim Discusses the Contributions of Michael Bennett to Company & Follies

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by Anonymousreply 131November 4, 2020 7:44 PM

Berlin 1991

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by Anonymousreply 132November 6, 2020 7:58 PM

[quote]But Sondheim doesn't offer many great songs for great vocalists to sing.

I'm not sure I understand this statement.

The entire score of A Little Night Music is great.

Being Alive

No One Is Alone

In Buddy's Eyes

Losing My Mind

I'm Still Here

Not A Day Goes By

Hey Old Friend

Not While I'm Around

Johanna

Pretty Women

I Remember (Evening Primrose)

by Anonymousreply 133November 7, 2020 12:54 AM

Op Try Into The Woods.

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by Anonymousreply 134November 8, 2020 2:20 AM

Ethel & Muppets

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by Anonymousreply 135November 8, 2020 2:39 AM

Dude, is there some reason you always post straight after I do?

by Anonymousreply 136November 8, 2020 2:43 AM

R136, I highly doubt that r135 does anything particularly "straight".

by Anonymousreply 137November 8, 2020 8:17 AM

OP try Merrily We Roll Along.

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by Anonymousreply 138November 9, 2020 2:42 AM

Why the women wore sashes with different years written on them ?

by Anonymousreply 139November 17, 2020 5:58 AM

Because the Follies ran for more than one year and the women differed in age and the year in which they participated.

by Anonymousreply 140November 17, 2020 6:06 AM

I watched the video of Follies the other day. I get it now. I love it.

Does this make me an eldergay now?

by Anonymousreply 141November 17, 2020 6:13 AM
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