Homosexual Distortions of Feminine Beauty in the Fashion Industry

This sounds like more idiotic Obese Pride bullshit.

R1 Well, this is from 1998, which was the decade of anorexic/heroin chic. I don't think Fat Pride was a thing yet.

He's talking about the total erasure of womanly body parts altogether in fashion so that grown women's bodies become a proxy for the body of a twink.

Just because Alex, if that’s even a man, likes fat chicks doesn’t mean all straight or bi men like fat chicks. And why is what men find attractive even the first consideration in women’s fashion? Why isn’t the question what women find attractive and functional?

So women's fashion should be about what straight men are attracted to?

OP's quoted source, who it couldn't even bother spell the name right of or not so cleverly intentionally misspelled it to throw us off the scent that it's HIM, *Alec Rawls-- is a pathetic, self hating gay man and son of the late philosopher John Rawls who apparently is making his living from blogging and promoting a general anti-gay agenda

"Alec Rawls on Justice, Homosexual Marriage, and Islamofacsism"

[R3] It's not about "fat chicks" its about the complete erasure of breasts and ass. [R4] It's not about what fashion straights are attracted to, it's about a woman looking like a woman and not a boy. Models looked womanly once, and then that stopped and the model body turned into an androgynous zone. But it's women's fashion. So there was, at the time of this article, a huge disconnect.

I concede that clothes themselves are better displayed on a slim body with less curves. At the time this article was written, however, models had become severely anorexic, and the thought was...how do we correct for this trend?

Rawls on gays in the military:

[quote] Heterosexual young men are willing to join the military and put their sex lives on hold because the manliness of fighting for their nation makes the lack of access to females bearable. That will change if a subculture of active homosexuality is allowed to burst out and grow amidst the suppressed heterosexuality of our military. Instead of a manly brotherhood, military service will become a chore and even a gauntlet of having to abide whatever in-your-face homosexuality the flamers want to throw up, and they will throw up plenty, as proven by every out-homosexual locale in the world…

I didn't/don't know this person. I was trying to find information on if there is a psychological built-in mechanism that allows gay men to assess and appreciate female beauty. I discovered this essay and found it provocative so I posted it just to see what people thought about it. Had no idea this person was so...how do we say...opinionated?

FUCK OFF, DYKE or FRAU!!!

Yeah, let’s try to find ONE MORE THING to blame gay men for... seriously get cancer and die!

OMG you guys this person is a terrible person! Sorry I got us into this mess.

How dumb, everyone both gay and straight with eyes know that thinner bodies photograph better and look better in the clothes. Fashion is about clothes, not straight male pin up fantasies.

[quote]I didn't/don't know this person. I was trying to find information on if there is a psychological built-in mechanism that allows gay men to assess and appreciate female beauty. I discovered this essay and found it provocative so I posted it just to see what people thought about it. Had no idea this person was so...how do we say...opinionated?

R8 Thanks for confirming you're definitely him. We know you're a low life Republican blogger fringe bigot with nothing but time on his hands. This entire thread will now be devoted exclusively to discussing the crazy shit you've said and written over the years, Alec, and what a contemptible hatemongering shitstain you are.

If only your vanity hadn't gotten in the way by you quoting yourself--- you might have gotten away with it. You didn't just stumble across this essay, there's exactly one link on the internet referencing it and it's on the original journal it was published in circa 1998. How disappointing that you haven't written anything since 1998 that might have earned you some notoriety.

Nobody knows who you are-- but they're about to find out.

F&F OP.

R11 No, it's too late, Alec. Your cover is blown and this thread is taking a different course instead of you just disappearing into a puff of smoke until your next appearance. Get ready.

Does anyone think straight men would pic obese female models?

And all the homo obsession with effy idols in entertainment industry in South Korea. Deplorable.

Yeah OP is right, let’s get more straight men in the industry to rape models in the dressing rooms. How about Trans Womyn of Color?

[R13] and [R14] and [R15] Wait are you guys serious? Or are you punking me? I can't tell.

I'm a normal anon and heavy DL user just sitting here lounging on my bed surfing the net, mainly because I am procrastinating on doing my chores. This is so weird. I'm honestly sorry I posted the thing. I had no idea it was going to be so controversial.

If I were that guy, wouldn't I be doubling-down on my ranting? He seems kinda out-there.

R19 you’re getting banned CUNT!!!!

Alec/OP's twitter.

Same writing style and overuse of hyphens.

It's him.

R21 What the actual fuck? Are you a flat-earther?

If I'm whoever this guy is, then you are Alex Jones. F & F to YOU for being a weird paranoid conspiracy person.

Alec is now desperately trying to make his own thread go away since he's been exposed. I bet he's drafting a legal threat to Muriel right now to take it down as we speak so it doesn't appear as a top google result when you search his name, which is precisely why he misspelled it.

Rawls is too much of a fringe bigot for OPs/Alec story to be true. He's all over the internet in chatrooms and blog comments. No doubt whatsoever.

Can't gays and women have one industry that isn't filtered through the straight male gaze?

R13 I'm not fucking scared of being "exposed", because I'm not that guy. I agree with you, alright? He's a fucking nut.

I have a masters in Art History. I was honestly looking for academic articles about the homosexual male's appreciation and love of classic female beauty. Because yes, I'm sitting around, bored. And I found this stupid fucking article and posted two short quotes from it for discussion and debate.

Excessive use of hyphens...LOL! You're unfortunately turning this this thread into some other whole thing than it's original, benign intent, which reflects more on you and your anger issues, than on me. The most I can be accused of is wasting time defending myself against you, and procrastinating on doing my laundry.

Does Alec Rawls have a big, fat cock? Does he shoot big loads? Does he like guys to suck his big cock? Does he like to slide his cock in a guy’s tight ass?

Alec Rawls sounds like a self-loathing closeted homosexual. Allegedly.

The trend of skeletal models got so extreme that at one point there was a law in Italy saying that if a model was beneath a certain weight of body fat, they pulled her off the runway. One model I remember from that era was obsessively anorexic and couldn’t help herself, and she died. She was down to eighty five pounds or something ridiculous.

About the clothes “hanging better,” if a fashion designer designs clothes that look terrible on all normal human women, that’s their fault. In the early twentieth century and before, women’s clothes had a purpose: to attract a husband or keep a husband. So there were a lot of low cut dresses, dresses with ruffles around the boobs, dresses that emphasized a small waist, so they made the hips and bust look bigger (crinolines, bustle, shoulder pads). I saw a YouTube video of a thin woman putting on an antique Edwardian dress. There were ruffles across the boobs built into an underdress to make her have a uniboob, which was the style then. That woman is a clothing historian. She says women didn’t really wear corsets to have a 13” waist like people think now. It was basically a bra that made you stand up straight and supported your back, which makes sense because people did a lot more manual labor then and lifted a lot more. Tailoring made women’s waists look small. In those days, designers built clothes to flatter the figure, not to make normal sized women look like sloppy hogs spilling out of spandex.

Making dresses that only skeletons can look good in is subverting the whole purpose of women’s wear. Either women are dressing to attract a man, or they’re wearing clothes that fit their particular figure, not a skeleton’s figure. No woman is going to pick clothing that looks great on some other person with a completely different figure.

This is Betty Grable. She is not obese or ugly, she was a pin up girl at the time. Back then, everyone understood breasts were made out of fat, not silicone, and if you wanted your girl to have big boobs, she was going to have a little bit of meat on her bones, not be a living skeleton with two beach balls sewn onto her chest, like models and actresses are now. No woman with that skeletal figure can model clothing that looks good on normally proportioned women. This is what a normal, healthy woman looks like.

R25 The more you continue to type the more I will continue to expose you, Alec. With this thread you proffered the same homophobic diatribe WoLF has been chanting for years almost verbatim about gay men harming straight women through fashion and Madonna videos, hoping to recruit more than the 2 or 3 self loathing gay men I have seen make their way to these forums from "gender critical" Twitter circles that are your main backup on this website. There's one named 'Rafa from PR', an older gentleman from the UK, and another called Dex or Dez or something that continue to post here and make up a substantial portion of the right wing, internalize homophobia, racist, bigotted posts here that aren't coming from straight women who I have also observed share the link to Datalounge on radical feminist twitter hoping to pad this site with more self loathing queens that they can reference as proof of gay men hating transsexuals.

I know exactly how you found this website and why you are here.

Furthermore, at the risk of sounding repetitive: Your story does not check out. You did not just HAPPEN to type "gay men beauty standards" into google and find this very obscure essay preserved only on YOUR WEBSITE, rawls.org and then quote it verbatim while slyly changing one character in your name to create the illusion of you not being him. There. You got some free promotion for your website so people can check out what a nasty vile little cretin you are firsthand.

It’s all just becoming clearer and clearer.

SMDH

R6 you say “Models looked womanly once,” what do you mean by that? Naturally thin women who don’t have gigantic tits and ass are not “womanly”? Many women around the world fall into that body type, they’re able to procreate and feed offsprings just fine. What is “womanly” in terms of physique in your opinion, since you’re inferring that slim women aren’t real women. That message is misogynistic and one that supposed feminists use time and again in the name of, oddly enough, body positivity.

I want to write some FanFic about Alec:

Alec Rawls sets at his desk typing, brilliantly. He’s working on an article titled ‘Our Homosexual Ideal of Female Beauty‘. I slide under the desk and pull his fat, meaty cock out of his pants. He gets hard immediately and I stick the monster cock in my mouth....

Here’s a picture of a fashion model in Harper’s Bazaar in 1950. Look at this dress. Any woman could wear it at any weight and it would look flattering. Full skirt to make a woman’s waist look smaller, a wide neckline that older women could wear because it’s not plunging. Any woman from eighteen to eighty could wear this.

The model is thin, but not abnormally so. No large gap between the thighs required to wear this.

Alec is good at internet cleanup, net reputation and evidently threatening bloggers and websites with legal action.

Here you can find a reference to some "stupid and abusive correspondences" he made with a law professor in NC in which I'm guessing he argued that Japanese internment was justified. The reference links to these correspondences have been disappeared.

Straight men have their Playboy models and Victoria's Secret.

Here’s an ad for a Levi’s jeans I saw yesterday.

Do you seriously think most women are this thin, or if you’re not this thin you’re obese or can’t look good in any clothes? These are thick pants. Imagine how she looks when she’s not wearing heavyweight jeans. She’s severely underweight.

Please respect Alec’s all-knowing self-expression.

[quote] Excessive use of hyphens...LOL!

Yes, Alec. When you vainly promoted yourself here with your own quote you did not expect that I would be applying my sleuthing skills, which included cross referencing your writing style and MISUSE of hyphens and frequent ellipsis interjections across platforms that appears throughout your writing on both here, your twitter, and your right wing blog that you slip into when you are not using your grown up writing skills and spellcheck.

You do realize that from a sample of your writing I can compare it using an algorithm that matches the style, vocabulary, even if you are likely to be a man or a woman by which verbs you use, right?

I have used these programs to identify anonymous threats and stalking messages sent to friends before.

The writing style is identical. You are him.

R38 Look at my fucking post history, you insufferable twat. I’ve been a contributing member her for years. Get your meds tweaked.

R28 Thank you for your contribution. I agree with every single thing you wrote.

Not the first right wing queen to try this. Won't be the last.

Hell, even Rosie O knows about Datalounge. She follows the website account on Twitter.

Many come and go here.

Some are stupid enough to quote their own essays from 1998 preserved only on their personal websites that would have to be searched for with a line verbatim to generate this specific search result.

This thread rivals the old Tig Notaro ones for weirdness.

R38 If I have an academic writing style, it’s because I’m an academic, you idiot! Algorithm away. I wish you the best in life. I think you need more hobbies. Sheesh.

Why would I waste my time debating you if I had nefarious intent? Wouldn’t I double down instead? I’m at a complete loss here. Somebody? Help me out here.

I don’t know why I care so much about dispiriting your theory but it’s very aggravating to me.

FWIW, I typed “Homosexual appreciation of female beauty” into the Googler. And not much popped up, and I frankly was surprised. That article popped up, so I clicked on it. It was an interesting take, albeit not the one I was shooting for.

Debate the article, not me. Otherwise just go away.

Ps I’m a moderate leftist btw. Have voted Democrat in every election since I gained the right to vote, starting with Bill Clinton.

Welp, this has been super duper fun—oh,shoot, look at the time. Gotta go.

OP, you have attracted the attention of our resident psycho, who is also the "poo shoes" obsessive. Ignore it, and have a better day. I appreciated the article.

The camera adds 10lbs so they have to choose anorexic models

I don’t know who this Alex person is, but if you’re obsessed with him, why not start a thread about him? So I can stay far away from it.

[quote] I’ve been a contributing member her for years.

And yet the simple act of quoting your obscure lame brained writing from 1998 was the sloppy mistake that undid all those years of anonymous posting that undoubtedly points the finger at gay men for being misogynists and argues that gay men shouldn't serve in the military, among other things.

[quote] Why would I waste my time debating you if I had nefarious intent? Wouldn’t I double down instead?

You are doubling down, Alec. Hard.

[quote] Debate the article, not me. Otherwise just go away.

No, it's always necessary to consider the source when the source is a right wing bigot that hates gay men.

R47 This thread is now about him.

I just re-discovered the ignore button. Yay!

R46, there have been cameras for hundreds of years. There have been movies for at least a century.

Marilyn Monroe and Rita Hayworth were not anorexic by any stretch of the imagination. Those women are still considered beautiful by modern standards today.

This idea that “you have to be anorexic or you can’t look good on the screen” is not borne out by any actual old movies or photos.

Seems like for decades fashion favored skinny women. The 50s appear to be the exception, evidenced by shaply women like Monroe and Loren. There was also Audrey Hepburn but at least there were different models for feminine beauty.

Temporary influence of European filmmakers or temporary change in taste of western men?

Why are models thin? Because of gay men?

NO - they are human coat hangers. End of story. The clothes need to drape off the body to show well. It's not about erasing women's bodies or anything like that.

By the same token, do you have any idea what the male model measurements are? 6' to 6'2" and between 140 and 155 pounds - but muscular and toned. That is extremely thin and difficult to diet down to - particularly with a muscular frame.

There's no concerted diabolical effort on anyone's part.

This poor woman. She’s so fat. If only she would lose about forty pounds she could make it big in Hollywood. As is, no one would want to look at her and men would certainly not want to pay to see her.

Patricia Arquette is an example of a woman who has never caved to Hollywood pressure to be thin for the camera. I like her a lot. But it’s almost jarring to see her onscreen because we are so conditioned to seeing actresses onscreen being so thin, with the bolt-ons. Patricia’s boobies are real, and they are fabulous.

Well the type of body you see in fashion mags has always been different to what you see in pornographic material for men. Young women, certainly pre-internet, had little exposure to porn but saw fashion models and actresses everyday so girls and young women got the impression that these very thin women were what straight men were attracted to and absorbed the idea that they had to be very thin to be beautiful and sexually attractive. Straight men think women want gigantic muscles and 10 inch dicks because boys and men have never consumed 'women's media' and only see roided out looking guys in porn and video games and action movies when the reality is women are not very attracted to bodybuilder muscles and a 10 inch dick hurts.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Marilyn Monroe and Rita Hayworth were still small, probably about a size four in modern size. The camera does put flesh on the frame—we’ve all experienced that! High fashion is made for skinny teenagers and starving society ladies as far as I can tell. I tried to try on a Prada Jacket a few years ago, and couldn’t even get my arm in. I have broad shoulders and am a normal weight BMI index, so I can’t wear couture. If they don’t want my money, that’s their business.

Here’s Teri Hatcher when she was anorexic. It looks like this is from a tabloid.

There is nothing sexy about this. She’s getting bad publicity for looking horrible and at the time she was going nuts on the set from drug use. Telling people if they refuse to destroy their physical and mental health they don’t look good enough, is bad for them and even worse for every other woman that sees this is what you have to do to get rich or be successful.

So basically the fatties are going to use any angle to get themselves "accepted" except do what most people who aren't obese are doing, which are portion control, dieting or working out, because they are to lazy for that.

I’d just like to add that the group mentioned above, WoLF, is composed almost entirely of lesbians and the farthest thing from homophobic as any group could be.

R58, I think what changed is they used to design clothes for customers, now they design them for models. And very few people are that underweight and none of them are healthy. Most models take drugs or smoke to stay that thin and that’s not healthy.

I know an Instagram girl and I’ve known her since she was a child. She was always petite and has never been not fit. She’s always been very athletic. She works out daily. Since she started posing on Insta, a couple of years, she’s now obviously anorexic and has lost a lot of weight. Her bones show on her ribs and down her front. She has never had one ounce of fat on her and has a six pack. She used to be a gymnast. She won’t be able to continue to lift weights if she gets any smaller. People have to eat food to live.

She doesn’t look better thinner. She’s very flat chested now and looks emaciated. I’m wondering how long it’s going to take before the men that visit her site get creeped out. A lot of them have followed her for a couple of years when she looked better.

And once you get that thin, your metabolic system is screwed up and your body hangs on to every ounce of fat it can get. She’ll get fat when her system slows down in her thirties. It’s pointless and self destructive.

Everyone wears “workout” clothes now anyway. Who cares.

Ha, There is that. I spent 3 days last week in PJ bottoms and a t-shirt. I'm making an effort this week to put on some slacks but working from home will hit the fashion industry both high end and fast fashions. I haven't bought anything since last Christmas.

Thanks, OP, for another woman bashing thread. There's a little grey area between anorexic and fat chick, but never mind. Carry on.

Definitely not rail thin.

The boyish figure was all the rage in the 1920s. In film, in fashion, in illustration.

The great deco illustrators of the1920s John Held and Russell Patterson were not gay. But they both did tons of magazine covers celebrating this new ideal.

R60, women are not “fat” when they’re not anorexic. It doesn’t go straight from eighty five pounds to obese. There’s something in between.

Women have a higher percentage of fat because they have babies. If women get too thin they stop menstruating, because it takes a certain percentage of fat to support a baby. Breasts are made out of fat, not silicone. If you have to have implants to look normal, you’re too thin. Having gigantic breasts and being bone thin everywhere else doesn’t happen in nature.

Being bigger in the chest than the hips is having a male figure and it’s based on bone structure. Almost all women are bigger in the hips than the chest. Expecting women to have a male figure or telling them they look bad if they don’t have a male bone structure is holding them to an impossible standard. Women have bigger hips because their hipbones are bigger to accommodate childbirth. No amount of starving is going to change bone structure.

Who decided women had to have a male bone structure to be qualified to wear women’s clothes? Not women. Women are the ones buying the clothes and wearing them. It’s like any other business. Cater to the customer’s needs, don’t tell the customer to have body altering surgery to buy your product. Only men would be arrogant enough to tell women they’re not good enough to buy their product. And only women would be so defeated as to believe them. Men would never fall for that.

How many fat men have you ever seen saying, “if only I weighed a hundred and twenty pounds (at six feet), I could fit into that suit.” Bigger men just wear bigger clothes and don’t care what some twink is wearing.

R67, that’s a drawing, not a human woman. Here’s an actual woman whose figure was the ideal in that era. She had small boobs, but wasn’t flat chested. The “flat chested ideal” you hear so much about was based on the drastic change in fashion from the 1910s to the 1920s. In the 1910s, women wore dresses that were tailored to make their boobs look bigger than they were.

Here’s Miss America 1930, Miss Margaret Ekdahl.

I don't for a minute believe this industry's focus on abnormal weight, or pre-pubescent boy shaped bodies can be blamed on gay men. They may be contributing to it, as some posters here seem to think there's no possibility for variance between "fatties" and an unhealthy, unrealistic shapeless stick figure.

The designers, the corporate leaders, and even the models themselves are all complicit to a point. I think there are many different ways women can be feminine, or beautiful. I often notice a grace and fluidity of movement most women have, regardless of shape, that men do not naturally possess. This may be difficult to notice in print, or photographs, yet could easily be visible on a catwalk.

There's a commercial for either a calcium supplement, or a women's vitamin complex that featured an x-ray or skeleton of an older woman... It was remarkable in that it was apparent the skeleton was female, and there was definitely that grace, and movement of the hips that was both beautiful and sexy, without any breasts, hair, jewellery, make-up, or other "feminine" elements or embellishments. Thin women can have this quality, but so do many others. Even some rather stereotypically butch female athletes possess this unadorned, or intrinsic feminine beauty. It's almost the female equivalent of what some describe men as having when they use the term "swagger". This is just one gay bloke's take on the essence of feminine beauty, for whatever it's worth.

Here’s some dresses from 1911.

I know it’s hard to tell how these dresses actually draped on a woman, because the drawings are so stylized. But these are the “pigeon breasted” style dresses at the end of the Edwardian era. Women looked like they had one breast that went straight across, and that look came from corsets that covered the breasts, combined with ruffles inside the dress to fill in the space in between. This made women look like their breasts were much larger than they were.

When women stopped wearing corsets, they stopped with these extreme styles meant to conceal women’s natural figures. The 1920s styles had no corsets.

R62 types morbidly obese

R71 Thank you that was a lovely contribution to the thread. R70 I cannot believe how healthy and normal and sweet that cutie-pie Miss America was! What a doll! I'm very sad western society has become so perverted that natural bodies are the ones under suspicion, and surgically-enhanced, pumped, or starved ones are held up as the gold standard. And that goes for either sex. And no, I'm not talking about normalizing obesity. I'm talking about natural vs synthetic.

R69 You are wrong.

First of all, the photo you posted is not from the 1920s.

And those illustrators I mentioned were expressing that popular ideal. Magazine covers atthe time were not photographs. They were illustrated. Those covers expressed the culture of the time.

THIS was the 1920s jazz age Flapper ideal.

R71, women on the catwalk are trained to stomp up and down like men.

Back in the 1940s and even fifties, women were hired at upscale department stores to model clothing for customers. There are scenes of this in old movies. Look at the way those women walked as opposed to how they walk on modern catwalks. They walk fluidly and gracefully, not like horses stomping.

Paris fashions 1920s

OP/r55, Patricia Arquette is fat.

The fact is that most people find fat people visually revolting. Bullying, lying about and otherwise disparaging thin women will never make obese people attractive. When the rest of us see someone who has let themselves go like that and get big, it’s a neon sign that the person is psychologically unwell and a liar because all fat people lie about their weight, exercise, metabolism, what they eat, etc. Women who look good in stylish clothing and the men who design those clothes are not responsible for your eating disorder. You are.

R72 The style or drape of women's clothing can certainly enhance that grace of movement I notice. Not a popular example, yet I recall how feminine and beautiful Mrs. Romney appeared in a very fifties-style long, pleated skirt that was a bit "poufy"... She didn't appear rail thin, and I notice that style being very attractive on heavier women as well. I think the late Kate Spade is another great example. Though she had gained considerable weight, she never lost beauty, and seemed to favour that style of skirts and dresses.

Cheers R74

The new modern woman. She drank, she smoked, she drove a car. And this was the new figure.

Of course that ideal shape changed with the Depression .

Not that there weren't a few strategic interventions in the Victorian era! But at least it didn't involve ruining the body itself.

Jazz age baby

55 years ago, the 1920s ideal returned with Twiggy, Penelope Tree etc.

Twiggy was not the 1920s ideal. Women in the 1920s and thirty were small breasted but not underweight. Here’s Clara Bow, the 1920s “It Girl.”

And Clara Bow would be what today is a 0-2 and twenty years ago was a 4-6. A size 0 today is a 28 inch waist.

Sorry, 1920s and 1930s. ^^

Here’s some flappers. They’re slim but not anorexic. Legs were a big deal back then because women’s hemlines had come up very recently. These women don’t have stick like legs like in some of the 1920s illustrations above, that is just exaggeration for the illustration. Real women of that era weren’t stick thin.

Grace Slick worked as a department store model in a SF department store, Magnum?. She said she would walk about in the clothes while a sales lady described the outfit to old society ladies and told them how good they would look in it. Prior to reading her book I had no idea such a job existed. I guess I assumed they just used plastic mannequins.

Stop confusing models with actresses! 1950's models were thin - Marilyn Monroe and Sophia Loren were NOT models. 1920s models were thin - Clara Bow was NOT a model.

We're talking about fashion models and the fashion industry.

OP / r86’s idea of a “healthy” weight:

Bras in the 1920s were designed to replace corsets and make women’s breasts look smaller in the 1920s. Clothing styles made them look smaller. Not all women in that era had small breasts, a lot of it was tailoring.

Here’s some Miss America contestant in 1925. They’re not unusually flat chested or bone thin. Look at the hairstyles, that’s the 1920s.

R86 God you are dense.

OF COURSE real women of the era were not stick thin. No way could they be. But thin and boyish was the Flapper ideal. Do you understand the word "ideal"?

In the 1920s diet plans and diet aids came into being. Short shift style straight line waistless dresses were introduced. Thin was a new trend.

R84 Certainly the normal figured woman like Clara Bow was admired, but we are talking about a fashion ideal, the new thing.

Twiggy existed at the same time as the figured Raquel Welch. Just as Louise Brooks existed at the same time as Clara Bow.

But even Clara Bow adopted to the new look.

R86, who considers herself to be “pleasantly plump” with “healthy” and “womanly curves”:

Note Clara's dress. It is straight lined. No waist. No bust darts. Designed to hide curves and the bust.

A few years later this was out dated as the 1930s brought back the ideal of curves.

It’s amusing to see men mansplaining to women that they don’t know what women are supposed to look like. Or claiming that anyone that thinks most women should weigh more than Twiggy must weigh 500 pounds. Because there’s nothing between Twiggy and 500 pounds.

You’re actually proving that the premise that men have way too much influence on women’s weight is correct. And the premise that gay men designers don’t like women and think they’re ugly if they don’t look like twinks with bolt ons.

For normal thinking gay men that don’t hate women, I don’t mean you.

R95 has learned a new word: "mansplaining"

R95, how many inches around is your waist? Also, that woman in the photo I posted weighed 1200 lbs. So your perception of how fat people are is off by 700lbs.

R94, that woman standing next to Clara Bow is wearing a typical coat of the era, very heavy and bulky. Cocoon coats were really common then, so were women’s dresses with an over-tunic. A lot of clothing in those days had dropped waists and a lot of tiered ruffles below the dropped waist. Not all dresses were clingy. People wore natural fabrics then, so a lot of daywear was cotton or linen or wool, which is stiffer and has some body. Clingy clothing was for evening wear.

Here’s some pretty typical street wear, all dropped waists and a lot of layered or tiered looks. None of it’s really clingy.

Fashions looked great on women before the models started becoming less feminine and more boy like and anorexic. Why is that? Saying that they photograph better is just bullshit. That's a completely subjective opinion.

OP does have a point. The reality is that women usually dress to be attractive and that means attractive to men as well as other women. Not sure that women want or need to be attractive to gay men. No offense and nothing wrong with that it's just the reality of it.

Sorry, bad link. I can’t link the photo directly so here’s a link to a story including the photo and some fashion plates from the same era.

Hot takes from 1998, how exciting.

The biggest problem with this conceit is that most models have never been anorexic. That’s simply untrue. It’s a lie obese women love to repeat about any woman who isn’t overweight.

I’m a gay man and I have been saying this for YEARS. The reason you see stick thin models with no tits or ass is because a bunch of middle aged queens have been choosing them. They want hangers for their clothing and have zero use for curves of any kind. Not to mention most of them probably don’t care much for women in the first place because it’s competition for the hot male model ass they perv for.

"And Clara Bow would be what today is a 0-2 and twenty years ago was a 4-6. A size 0 today is a 28 inch waist."

No, a size 0 would be like a 24 or 25 inch waist

You can tell in 1930s pre-Code fashions that very thin figures were en vogue at the time. In fact, designers were irritated at having to dress Bette Davis when she first arrived on the scene because she was full-busted, and they went to a lot of trouble to hide that with bolero jackets and wide collars.

"Yes, but not in the way they think. The problem is that the fashion industry is all women and homosexual men. No one in the entire industry is attracted to women."

This is a lie. There are plenty of het male photographers, and plenty of straight men working for the modeling agencies. A lot of straight guys work at modeling agencies precisely so they can hit on models. Why do you think Trump started a modeling agency.....

Some designers wouldn’t have banned anorexic models if there were no anorexic models. Saying “fat women are the reason for it” is simply untrue. Fat women aren’t designing high fashion. Nor are they men.

A designer I know who worked on indies and for older R&B acts has an absolute ton of lesbian designer friends who have worked with her over the years. These are women in their 40s and 50s so I'm pretty sure these lesbians were around in 1998 when this article was written. Plus as R106 said, there are a lot of hettie male photographers.

R105, small breasts aren’t automatically attached to thin women. Bette Davis was busty in that era, because women didn’t have boob jobs. She was normally proportioned for her, not fat. There’s a lot of variance, it’s mostly genetic. She’s apple shaped.

A lot of women are pear shaped, even if they’re thin. It’s bone structure, not fat. Those women have small breasts, which were in fashion then.

This is a good example of bone structure. To look at this woman’s measurements, you’d think she was average weight.

But she’s a model and very tall so she’s thin for her height. She’s being measured around the bones, which are going nowhere no matter how much weight she loses. This woman could probably put on ten pounds without looking a lot different. At that height, it gets distributed around so it’s not really noticeable. Maybe she’d gain an inch here or there, that’s it. Certainly she wouldn’t appear overweight or obese.

I'm sick of the tired and false idea that gay men are somehow personally responsible for unrealistic female beauty ideals. The idea that they want boys instead of women.

It's ridiculous and insulting. Tall and thin models show clothes better - always have. Male models are also extremely thin and have to diet all the time as well.

Plus sized models are very tall - and they aren't necessarily that 'big' either. I don't see anyone complaining about how they're unnaturally tall - most are over 5'11" and weigh around 190-200. That's really not that big if you met them in real life.

There's a larger issue of people comparing themselves to what they see in magazines - fine. Beautiful women or handsome men have always been used for ads. This isn't new - and it's not the gays fault.

Just accept that models are rare exceptions and that you are not a model and never will be. Fixed. Nobody is asking you to be underweight.

This is A GAY FORUM FOR GAY MEN stupid frau, we don't give a shit about women's looks.

A lot of gay men are fashion designers though, so there’s some crossover. Maybe some gay men are designing clothes for hangers to wear and not people, but hangers don’t have any money and people do.

R110, it’s the definition of “thin” that’s the issue, as opposed to underweight or anorexic. Thin is normal. Anorexic is not.

The idea that all models have to be underweight isn’t really a good idea. The customers mostly aren’t, nor should they be. Fifty years ago neither male or female models were abnormally underweight, just slim. Some people are naturally just slim.

It’s not really good for anybody, male or female to be starving themselves for a job, and not really necessary. It’s out of control on the part of designers and actually a work hazard, like factory owners that don’t mind if their workers lose a few fingers here and there. If it’s really that important for models to have zero personality and look like skeletons, replace them all with robots. Then you can make them any shape you want and people will only look at the clothes.

Distortions of feminine beauty have existed ever since the fashion industry became an industry! Here's some drawings from 1926, intended to sell dress patterns, and as you can see, the drawings are less anatomically accurate the a Barbie doll, and any clothing designed to look good on these hipless stick figures is going to look ridiculous on an ordinary woman with an ordinary shape.

Sadly, the fashion industry has lived on unrealistic fantasies ever since the invention of mass marketing. Although the focused has changed slightly, used to be they'dd sell these unrealistic things and rely on the shortage of full-length mirrors to keep the dream alive, nowadays women are convinced by the concurrent diet and gym industries that they can make their bodies more like the unrealistic ideals that the fashion industry is designing for. Well, show me a diet or exercise program and will make someone's legs longer or their pelvis narrower.

R114. Those clothes are tailored to look like the women have no hips. They’re still in there.

If you look at photos from that era, a lot of women actresses or models were really hippy, probably because they had small breasts and that was the fashion, and small breasted women usually have big hips. I guess people were more realistic about it being one or the other, pear shaped or apple shaped.

A lot of those drop waisted dresses were sailor dresses or had ruffles or were gathered on the bottom part, so they were pretty shapeless, you could hide a lot in there. This full skirt below a dropped waist style was pretty common. They were starting to do this in the late 1910’s, and it went through the 1920s.

This lady was in the Ziegfeld Follies, so that’s a professional picture.

[quote]and any clothing designed to look good on these hipless stick figures is going to look ridiculous on an ordinary woman with an ordinary shape.

Once again: that was the style of the time. Straight lines, shapeless.

It was a reaction. It was liberation. It meant freedom from the restricted corseted figure of the Edwardian and Victorian era.

[quote]Sadly, the fashion industry has lived on unrealistic fantasies ever since the invention of mass marketing.

It was long, long before the fashion industry that their were "unrealistic fantasies" of a woman's shape.

Furthermore: some of you seem to be unaware of the fact that the arbiters of women’s fashion, Vogue and Harpers Bazaar have been historically headed by women.

And women designers have also favored the the slim figure.

In fact, it is Coco Chanel...a woman... who was most responsible for popularizing the look.

Chanel 1920s:

While I'm sure there are 'modelizers' in the industry its also true that straight men dont look at runway shows or Vogue to jerkoff. Biologically straight people are programmed to find attractive in the opposite sex what they don't have. Men like the jiggly bits and the curves and the softer faces and women like the muscles, the chest, the shoulders and chiseled faces. Men of all races and ethnicities will get hard for a slim/'average weight' woman with enough body fat to have a curvy butt or breasts or both. Women who are underweight or overweight are more of a niche attraction although when I think about it I have known more straight guys guys who said they were attracted to overweight women than very skinny women. An overweight woman walks by with a big butt or a big rack and they get whiplash turning around to gawk at her.

R113, the problem is that your concept of “thin” is clinically obese. That’s the problem. You cannot differentiate between “anorexic” and thin. You mistake obese for “healthy”. That’s the issue here. Many people in the American flyover have the same problem because they’re surrounded, nearly entirely, by people who are obese and they, themselves, are obese and to them, in contrast with the entire rest of the world, the US coasts and all of human history, people being grotesquely overweight is “normal”. The obesity epidemic is only “normal” in the same sense that people infected during the CV19 pandemic is “normal”. You’re mistaking a health crisis for its opposite.

R117 = fat frau who can’t tell when she’s being lied to

Also, this a gay board for gay people.

Straight men prefer skinny over obese, unless they have a fetish. I have straight men for brothers and cousins and I know they find fat women repulsive, especially in bathing suits. The biological imperative is to mate with someone healthy who will produce healthy children, and that’s not an obese woman.

The age of most runway models is in the17 to early 20s range. They are not full grown women. Many are naturally thin at that age.

R121, all women are *naturally* thin, unless they’re pregnant. Women with eating disorders are fat.

R120, severely underweight women aren't very fertile either

That's why straight men prefer bikini models to runway models. What's weird is that people here think there's no middle ground between model thin and obese.

R122, very few women are naturally 5'9" and 110 pounds.

Gay men are just better designers. Sorry folks. And clothes look better on coat hangers.

R123 I think most that height (considered as having "nice or great figures" are more like 135/145lbs. That's typical of the women I know a bit younger than 50. They're fit, work out, have breasts, curves, and a waist,etc.

R125 I think you're right. I'm no expert in women's weight but my best friend is 5'2' and 110lbs, she's tiny and wears a size 2. I cannot imagine stretching that 110lbs out to a 5'9' frame. There can't be more than 1% of women who have that weight/height while eating the recommended calories and nutrients.

I do people here are being silly anyway. It's either runway model or obese whale with them. Neither group are what straight men consider 'hot babe' but then most women lie in between anyway.

R120 I think you may be generalising from your own white or WASP culture. African American men, Hispanic men, Greek men, and Polynesian men appreciate full figured or curvy women you probably perceive as obese. Pretty much all my mates happen to be straight or bi, and none prefer skinny women, or women nearly as hungry looking as these models. They may enjoy the faces, but not necessarily the stick figures.

They all like breasts, hips, and ass. It's hard for a woman to keep or have ample breast size without a certain percentage of body fat.

[R127] I was thinking about truly fat women, not curvy ones. But yes, WASPy men generally like the athletic type that you would see on a tennis court. They like long legs, too.

I was a baggage handler at Heathrow during college and worked with a bunch of straight guys mostly from black and middle eastern backgrounds and they had a real thing about very angular featured women who would be considered great beauties by women and gays. They found them masculine and unappealing and favored women that on DL would be considered pretty but no great beauty. Think Kelly Preston. Their ideal woman, of any skin color, was Kelly Preston type pretty, of average weight with T&A. The tits were less of an issue as long as she has hips and butt.

I don't have very strong opinions on female beauty myself. I will say that I find the tall WASPy blonde the least attractive 'type'. They do seem less womanly/sexy to me but more 'safe wife material' who will look nice in a gown at a company dinner but other men won't be drooling after her and hubby will be pounding out the curvy little Latina assistant on his lunch break.

Another thing about straight men and thinner women, is that men like youth. Thin, smaller women look younger. Heavy breasts and hips look matronly. I know there is variance in taste, but I have been privy to these conversations. Their ideal would be a thin yet curvy woman. The rolypoly shaped ones, no.

R130, most straight men like big boobs. That's why there is way more porn aimed at guys who like big boobs than guys who like small boobs. No, most of them don't want fat women (though fat porn exists) but most of them don't want boyish looking, flat chested girls either

The fashion industry is about clothing and selling clothes. Not beauty or sex. Sometimes it's mixed like with Victoria's Secret but that's retail fashion and targeted towards normal people. All the high fashion is for wealthy clients and the models are just walking clothes hangers hence they are tall and skinny. They also choose models with alien or androgynous faces. A lot of runway models are European or African descent due to being tall and slender. It's probably harder for an East Asian or Hispanic model to book gigs as they may not be tall or long proportioned enough

For some reason Hollywood loves skinny actresses too. The women that a lot of guys would be attracted to you would see on TV, in music videos, porn, magazines like Maxim and GQ. Feminine face, big eyes, pouty lips, big smiles, big boobs, big butt and long legs.

Hey, R128, back @ R120 you had suggested they prefer skinny.... I know we all have different definitions, so please don't take offence by my taking your words literally. Several of my closest, oldest mates will say to each other: "too skinny"... The three closest to me who are always commenting on the ladies are a fellow Jew, an Irishman, and an Englishman. Even as younger men, they never went with skinny.

The reason I made the comment regarding ladies 5'9" upthread is because my best female friend is that height, and after having two children, complains she needs to lose 25lbs, she's saying she's feeling fat at 165, though all my mates think she's still "hot".

She's a former rugby girl, and runs every morning. She's never been what we consider skinny. She's athletic and long legged, with big hips and medium breasts.

"And clothes look better on coat hangers."

Yes, clothes look better on people who are tall and lean, and people who are tall and lean look better in clothes.

But the fact is, most human beings aren't particularly tall and lean, and clothes designed to look good only on people who are tall and lean will look like shit on a regular bastard with an ordinary build. And IMHO that's one reason that regular schmoes and fraus are checking out of the fashion business, spending as much of their lives possible wearing gym clothes or board shorts. The fashion industry is losing influence, and I suspect certain parts of it are losing money, as more people pay less attention.

No one is naturally fat. Everyone is naturally thin. If you’re fat, it’s the result of some combination of too much of the wrong food, too little of the right exercise and, in very rare instances, side effects from medications. That’s the fact of it. You and whole family may be obese, but obesity is not hereditary and poor lifestyle choices are learned.

R135, no one is "naturally fat"....nor is anyone severely underweight naturally. Plenty of models have come forward and talked about their struggles with eating disorders. They have to severely restrict calories to look the way they do.

R134 Fashion is shown on the runway on tall lean models so the buyers can see the product to its best advantage. Fashion shows are not for the general public. They are for buyers and fashion editors. The buyers then order the clothes in the sizes that are best for their customers. The big fashion houses were doing better than ever pre covid. You have to remember that the big fashion houses are international. There are plenty of women around the world who buy fashion and would not be caught dead out on the street in gym clothes.

R136 Those models are a tiny minority. Many girls who are not models have eating disorders.

Nobody is naturally morbldly obese, R136, but human beings vary. Some are naturally very lean, some are naturally muscular, some are naturally beefy, some are naturally plump. Put 100 people on the same diet (calculated for basic body size) and make them do the same amount of exercise for ten years, and at the end of those ten years those 100 people are going to have varying builds and varying amounts of body fat. Some will be what you think of as "fat".

The fashion industry does need to cater to the various body types people actually have, because if they keep designing for only one body type then yeah, most of the population has a choice between looking like shit in clothes that were designed for tall thin people, or saying "fuck it" and going out in their gym clothes again.

Sorry, R136, I was addressing R135.

R135 I don't for a minute believe everyone is born "naturally thin". It sounds as if you're dwelling in a dream world. Most are born with an AVERAGE or MEDIUM build, and unless they turn to athletics, and seriously watch their weight, they will become fat or obese after having children and aging. I know this as someone born average, former rugger, and rugby coach. I know a tonne about nutrition and training, yet I enjoy cooking and eating. It's a struggle for most after a given age, ESPECIALLY women.

With age not only comes a decreased metabolism, but also a decline in Pepsin, Hydrochloric acid, as well as other digestive enzymes. This, in addition to decreased metabolism, coupled with changing hormones, NATURALLY puts on weight, unless a concerted effort is continually made to counteract it. Most have to watch what they eat and either work out more with advancing age, or learning to feel sated with fewer calories. Not everyone wins the battle!

R138, the most common eating disorder is over-eating and people who eat garbage food and don’t exercise. The number of people, male or female, with anorexia or bulimia is minuscule in comparison to the quantity (and mass) of the people who eat too much. The vast majority of thin people are healthy. There are no healthy fat people. You cannot be both healthy and fat as fat is by definition unhealthy.

What? Fashion isn't about pleasing heterosexual men; therefore models don't need to be ideals of male beauty. The clothes will be bought and worn by women.

"None of them have any direct knowledge of what a heterosexual man is innately attracted to."

Oh Jesus. We all know hetero men like more than model stick figures. Many like in shape women who have ample breasts and ass. Some like them even "thicker." While some really do like thin. Like it's all some sort of mystery that is unknown because we don't have hetero father, brothers, uncles, classmates, coworkers, teammates who we've seen and heard talk about women a million times.

R142, anorexia and bulimia are far more common IN THE FASHION INDUSTRY than obesity

Thiinness does not correlate with health, R142. Some thin people are naturally thin, and are thin because they abuse their bodies. Some people, especially older people, are naturally plump or fat, and are healthier than a thin person of their own age who keeps their weight down with cigarettes, severely restricted calories, or Adderall.

You don't get a straightforward correlation between weight and health until you get to the upper levels of obesity. Nobody morbidly obese is going to avoid having weight-related health problems, not for long anyway.

One of my family members is morbidly obese and is almost 81. I didn’t even think you could live that long being so fat and sedentary.

It's by far easier to strive for an average to medium build, being fit with muscle mass, rather than "thin". This is simply because muscle is what burns fat and calories. As long as lean muscle is maintained throughout subsequent pregnancies, and aging, one can still continue to eat normal portions.

Those struggling to be thin or skinny, will be relying on calorie restriction alone. That takes a lot of will power, and self discipline. Not everyone is meant to be thin or skinny. One can be healthy, fit, and athletic with more shape, or muscle mass. Unless someone is using hormone replacement, this becomes difficult after fifty. Men do have andropause or "manopause". With decreasing Testosterone, it is difficult to build muscle. Much easier to keep it, if you have remained fit, and watch what you eat.

Most women after fifty who appear naturally thin are engaging in some form of calorie restriction, or severe portion control, intermittent fasting, etc. "Natural" is quite misleading really.

[R147] What about the truly elderly, over seventy, who often are very thin? Is this because they lose their appetites?

R148 Some do, whilst others simply lose interest in cooking or eating in their senior years. I've seen more than a few in my life who were "more robust" shall we say, apparently shrink in old age. Many we see like this may have been the rare naturally thin, or they continued to strive to be thin. I'm still not buying EVERYONE is born naturally thin.

I would say it depends on the individual. Many older people develop digestive issues, and no longer can continue eating the same. My experience with family members who have become thinner were existing on an ever increasingly narrow diet. Fatty or rich foods can be impossible with gallbladder issues, reduced pancreatic enzymes, or common heartburn or reflux makes people choose leaner, more easily digested foods.

I refuse to design for Miss Valdosta Grain and Feed. Let the cow head over to Georgia Tent and Awning.

Not R147 but some health issues use up a lot of energy and make it hard for the elderly to keep on weight. COPD is one example. Older people also are more likely to have digestive issues, chronic pain, dental issues. Some widows stop cooking and eating properly because they see no point cooking for one.

R151 Excellent observations. Many on their own are not getting enough nourishment due to fatigue, giving up, or because of medications they may take. Some do indeed claim things taste different to them, or their preferances change. So many different issues. For some, teeth or dentures may be an issue as well.

Regardless of our individual histories and situations, as we get beyond seventy, we require drastically fewer calories as we are usually living a sedentary lifestyle.

[quote]No one in the entire industry is attracted to women. None of them have any direct knowledge of what a heterosexual man is innately attracted to.

Huge knockers and tight clothing that shows off the huge knockers and figure. It's not exactly rocket science.

Heterosexual males literally start drooling and lose all concentration.

As long as it's not women deciding for themselves, I'm ok with whatever the men decide-- gay or straight, a man at least has the sense of a man.

As for elders, everyone loses most of their muscle at a certain age, which leaves the body looking either body or doughy, depending on the amount of body fat left.

Some scrawny old elders are energetic and bounce back fast, some are weak and listless. Same for the heavier elders, because natural body types vary as much as people's state of health. And again, you don't get a direct correlation between weight and ill health, until you get to the higher levels of obesity.

For senior doctors prefer them to carry a few extra pounds. A few, up to 10. Low BMI in the elderly is related to earlier death and is worse than being overweight.

Then decide for yourself R154. Stop lamenting and blaming everybody else about everything and just get on with it.

At least many of us agree it's stupid to solely blame gay guys for the prevalence of skinny models in the fashion industry. A lot of fashion designers are also women and straight men (yes they exist) also. It's just easier to show off clothes and designs on tall and skinny models.

But we also can agree it is pretty fucked up how much models will starve themselves, do drugs and whatever it takes to distort their bodies to fit into that aesthetic. And also for a long time, many models were scouted out of middle school and high school (which makes sense they would be skinnier and less developed at that age) but were exposed to God knows what madness.

I think the reason many girls want to look like fashion models is because of the fame and status attached to it. And also think about the fact many are given Barbie dolls and princess dolls at a young age and are encouraged to like fashion, looking rich and living in luxury. Many get older and realize they cannot afford those high-end luxury brands either, so resembling those models is the next best thing. Usually teen girls grow out of this but not always. I imagine if we encouraged more girls to value an education and pursuing careers rather than aspiring to fame and seeking status less would want to superficially resemble the women they see as rich and prestigious.

So I think young girl's self-esteem and body image is more dependent on their family and peer group rather than just the media and fashion industry.

R158, are you able to admit that everyone is naturally thin, i.e. height/weight proportionate?

R159 Humans vary in body sizes due to genetics. I would say some are more muscular, some are thin and some are more stout. Nobody is naturally obese though. A lot of people aren't proportionate because of genetic expressions can result in asymmetry.

R156 Especially if they're prone to falls. Dairy may be harder or impossible to digest in the elderly, and that may have been their main source of calcium when they were younger. Striving to be skinny isn't all that it's cracked up to be, especially if one happens to develop cancer, and requires chemotherapy. The really thin ones often don't do well.

R160, You’re redefining “height/weight proportionate” and “thin” to mean things other than than their actual definitions. And the clinical term “obese” is not limited to people who have grafted to their sofas.

I love how this thread started at high fashion and is winding down to geriatric medicine. That’s life for ya!

[quote]Low BMI in the elderly is related to earlier death and is worse than being overweight.

What is "Something a fat person would say?" Alex?

R162 Would you include women who are voluptuous or people who are heavily muscular but have little body fat to be thin? My idea of thin is like petite that's why I said human bodies can range from thin, stout/stocky and muscular. And I am very aware that many people can be overweight and obese without being land whales.

R163 Ha! Well, most of us are older here, so contemplating lifestyle choices throughout our lives would naturally progress to old age.

R159 I'm not R158, yet I'd like to impress yet again we may not be using the same working definitions of [italic] thin [/italic]. Yes, most are born proportionate, but frames are different. So is genetic inheritance. Some may very well be prone to laziness as well. The genetic studies involved with twitchers and fiddlers is interesting. They tend to be in constant motion, driven by something we don't completely understand, and they do burn more calories, whether they admit to being or feeling nervous or not.

Let's be fair, many babies are now indeed born fat, due to overweight mums, who ate everything in sight during pregnancy. I think those children probably do struggle, though I have no medical literature to site. I think there exists other descriptions of proportionate height and weight. Everyone isn't born thin. One can still be within a healthy range as average or medium build. Thin or slim is the lowest end of the BMI, or under.

[quote] This is A GAY FORUM FOR GAY MEN

No it is not. Stupid sexist asshole at R111.

It is GAY forum for HOMOSEXUALS. Get lost, you prick.

Thin means a lack of body fat. It means height/weight proportionate. It’s the physical state every single person who is born naturally has. Muscle isn’t fat. “Voluptuous”, by definition, means excess body fat. A woman can have wider than average hip bones and larger than average breasts and not be fat. Most of the people who define themselves and others as “voluptuous” or “curvy” or “womanly”, however, are just lying about someone being overweight. The only time a woman is naturally not thin is during pregnancy and for up to two years afterward, assuming she stops breast feeding, at that point.

R168 Maybe thin means lack of body fat. But to most people it means skinny and boney. Every time I have heard voluptuous it's been used to describe women like Monica Belluci, Scarlett Johansson, Tyra Banks, Jennifer Lopez and Marilyn Monroe. So I don't associate it with being fat at all.

R165 Your working definition is more in keeping with mine. Those with stouter frames, bigger hips, bones, shorter height may very well be proportionate and healthy, without being thin. Those I refer to as average or medium.

Those who have been athletic usually are not thin per se, as in rugby, football, or a woman with a Jane Russel figure. No one would describe those three as thin, yet not fat or unhealthy. Thin to my sensibilities is rather lean, and a synonym with slim or skinny... slight if you will. Athletic build is more bulk from muscle, and in the case of females, a bit wider hips, as well as traditionally female fat storage.

R169 “words may have meanings but I refuse to accept those meanings and will redefine the English language as it suits my biases and insecurities”

All the people you mentioned weigh 30 pounds less than you think they do.

R171 Um OK. I'm not refusing to accept anything. You are making assumptions. I am speaking from what most people would perceive the term "thin" as. Part of communication is also understanding how others will perceive that word. Terms are never literal and have never remained frozen in time. Language is fluid and perceptions of words will change. Especially in the English language.

R171 Did I say those women were fat? I said people have referred to them as "voluptuous" which would mean they are not fat but have big boobs and round ass with a thin waist.

You think Marilyn Monroe was “voluptuous”?

[quote] Further, one of her dress makers also chimed in with exact measurements he took. Those measurements were 5 ft. 5.5 inches tall; 35 inch bust; 22 inch waist (approximately 2-3 inches less than the average American woman in the 1950s and 12 inches less than average today); and 35 inch hips, with a bra size of 36D

A 22 inch waist with 35 inch hips, today, in the US would leave MM swimming in a size 00 in mass produced clothes and still needing to have the waists taken in for a size 0 at a store like Diesel with slightly less mass produced clothes.

R174 Yes she's voluptuous. Big tits and ass. That's what people define voluptuous as. Why is this so offensive to you?

R168 Women who are healthy are meant to store a bit more body fat. I'm not down with the percentages, but even without pregnancy, it is a natural pattern of fat displacement to pad around the womb. Breast tissue is mainly fat. You seem just a bit skewed in your perception that only thin is acceptable as proportionate, or the healthy ideal.

Ethnic diversity is different too, when one considers hips, lower abdominal fat around the uterus, etc. Diet aside, there are different shapes, and thin or skinny is often associated with taller, longer limbed women of low body fat.

Have you ever heard the phrase "Baltic Body Type"? Even with a strict healthy diet, some women have short stature, thicker ankles, not much of a neck, thick wrists, larger hips, thick ankles, huge pendulant breasts, wider frame, etc. No one would describe such a woman as thin, though she may well be within the bounds of normal BMI, and without a higher than average percentage of body fat. Still not thin! Not picking on women of this region, as many Polynesian women, Ashkenazi Jews, and Mediterranean types inherit such builds as well.

There are plenty of athletic, or active healthy people who are neither thin, nor obese. It's not black or white.

R87. I encountered that in several high-end stores in Dallas in the late 90's.

By no one’s definition is a size 0/00 (her hips) a “big ass”.

I'll add I rather like the term "thick" popular with African Americans. They're not all obese or fat, and they're certainly not slim, like the term "Baltic Body Type".