Gal Gadot IS Cleopatra for director Patty Jenkins

How’s Angie taking the news?

I'll never understand why this horrendously bland, anorexic cipher has such a major career. She's like the human equivalent of wallpaper paste.

She's no Claudette Colbert.

It will be fun to see the reactions from this casting. Has a Cleopatra ever been a real success, outside of The Globe?

She's far too beautiful to be Cleopatra.

Why R5? Everyone knows Cleopatra looked EXACTLY like Elizabeth Taylor.

YOu know there's going to be a lot of bullshit about Cleo being Black but she wasn't. Not even close. The Macedonians Ptolemy, followed a long cultural tradition among his kind, and didn't mix it up, but he did like the North African/Middle Eastern types . Now Egyptians were notorious for marrying brothers to sisters. For centuries. While Ptolemy may have adopted some of those practices, his line also intermingled with other ethnics. Plus there were no Black Africans indigenous to Egypt. They were further south in Kush Nubia and other places. Bottom line, Cleo was Greco-Middle Eastern in appearance.

Interestingly, as I studied Alexander the Great (who was Ptolemy's younger half brother on his father's side) The Macedonians were inbred and insular and hated outsiders. They got pissed off when Alexander started fraternizing and marrying his generals off to Persians, or Aghanis or other tribes as their conquests led them further East. At one point they wanted to go home and rebelled. After Alexander promised them they could go home and gave them all money they settled down. By then, they were in the Himalayas and were eventually making their way through India to go home. One of the reasons, aside from the fact she was nutso, the Macedonians hated Olympias, Alexander's mother, is because she was from another region, not Macedonian. They decided she was a witch and had occult powers. She did like to fool around with snakes and have orgies in the groves at certain times of year.

The Jews run Hollywood. She’s Israeli. And hot. Does that answer the question?

She's beautiful but a horrible actress. As charming as she was in WW her acting is dreadful. She's all head acting. She can't portray anything from the inside.

They should've cast Rami Malek instead.

I don’t get the euthusiam about this actress. There is nothing extraordinary about her in terms of looks or talent...

Then again, the popularity of Jennifer Aniston, Gwyneth Paltrow, Michelle Williams, Emma Stone and SJP leaves me equally mystified.....

She looks nothing like Cleopatra. Why can’t they get a real Egyptian to play her, a brown skin woman?

She’s beautiful and seems like a nice woman but she can’t act for shit.

Cleopatra may not have been black, but she was semitic and had a large nose. I'm sick of Gadot after reading about her politics.

Worst casting choice ever. I mean she ticks the "diversity" boxes but she can't act. Razzies are coming.

Rami Malek could be good as weaselly Octavius.

Cleopatra was brown.

Oliver Jackson-Cohen for Marc Antony

R14 what are her politics?

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Jude Law and his baby dick as Caeser — um no!

[quote] She looks nothing like Cleopatra. Why can’t they get a real Egyptian to play her, a brown skin woman?

Because Cleopatra was Greek, not Egyptian. She was an inbred Ptolemy, and they were all from Greece,

p.s.--Why do you think you know what the real Cleopatra looked like?

This is one of the rare sculptures of Cleopatra from the period when she was alive.

r17, I couldn't find a single legitimate source on Google Image that states that image is actually Cleopatra VII.

Cleopatra didn't look like a North African as we know them today. I don't know why Americans tend to forget that the Arabs colonized all of northern Africa in the 7th century CE and first established slavery on black people there, but before they conquered thse lands there were no Arabs in Egypt.

Say it a little louder for the people refusing to hear: Cleopatra was of Greek (Macedonian) heritage. She was not black and she did not look like a modern North African. It's legit to cast a white woman in the role. It would NOT be legit to cast a black one, because the Macedonians weren't African. Nevertheless, expect Gadot and Jenkins to catch hell for this by idiots who refuse to educate themselves.

Did she have any children? Are we sure Clepotra wasn't really a trans man?

She wasn’t white or black. She was brown. Macedonians had dark features and curly hair. They considered darker skin more attractive, which is partly why she was described as so beautiful.

The whitewashing in history needs to stop.

Cleopatra was Greek. She looked like Nana Mouskouri.

[quote]She wasn’t white or black. She was brown. Macedonians had dark features and curly hair.

Not really. They look like white people.

R30

Cleopatra was GREEK. Ancient Macedonians are not the same as the Slavic Macedonians of today.

Ancient Macedonians spoke a language related to the Greek dialects, but the Greeks didn't consider them Greek. In any case they were southeastern European, whatever modern racial that would put them in nowadays. They weren't "Semitic" linguistically or ethnically, as someone upthread thinks.

At least the majority of Cleopatra's forebears were Macedonian aristocrats; their dynasty had been ruling Egypt for two and a half centuries when she took the throne. There's some uncertainty about parts of her ancestry, notably her mother, who was probably the wife of her father, but we don't have any direct record. Anyway she might have had some non-Macedonian ancestry, whether Greek, Egyptian, Phoenician or whatever, but probably not. Here's a sample of her handwriting.

LOL!!! Beyonce' has been angling for this FOR YEARS! She's made no secret of it. She' must be ripping her weave out, throwing shit at Blue Ivy!

Expect another Beyonce' rage album to drop any day now. And once again, it's going to be all about how Beyonce's been wronged for being a black girl. Grabbing my popcorn and M&Ms now!

The best Cleopatra was Lyndsey Marshall in HBO's Rome.

[quote]Cleopatra was GREEK. Ancient Macedonians are not the same as the Slavic Macedonians of today.

Ancient Greeks aren't the same as modern Greeks.

If that bust is of Cleopatra, Jenny Slate would be the closest physical match.

Cleopatra for comparison:

See Link to the only known, original likeness of Cleopatra. The tone of her skin and her hair were reportedly perfectly represented here as this likeness was make as she sat for it. Perhaps this settles the debate.

[quote]If that bust is of Cleopatra, Jenny Slate would be the closest physical match.

Jenny Slate on a movie screen for two hours would cause the audience to vomit, so obviously they can't cast her.

Vivien Leigh was a delightful young Cleopatra and I don't care that Shaw himself thought she was all wrong. So, there.

This is what she really looked like. She’s clearly brown and not white

The writing for Cleopatra in "Rome" was ridiculous.

Ironically, the most accurately represented Cleopatra would be a modern day Jewish, or even Italian woman; with prominent nose and a dark beige complexion. And of course, she was not black and nowhere in history was reported to be African or to appear as any ancient or modern day African.

Think a leaner, slightly more attractive Golda Meir. This is what an older Cleopartra would have resembled.

they should make a Cleofatra movie instead.

"Cleopatra was Greek. She looked like Nana Mouskouri."

And she danced like Bonnie Franklin.

She was brown, like me

This thread went down the rabbit hole quickly.

r43 many Italian women don't have prominent noses or a "dark beige" complexion.

r46 that's too dark for a Macedonian.

R49

Ancient Macedonians had dark features. That’s the truth. And the men were darker because most were often in the sun. So this whitewashed version of history is disgraceful.

Alexander the Great was blond, r50.

Years of mixing with Turkish invaders have left Greeks and Macedonians looking much more Middle eastern than they did in ancient times. Both the Greeks and the Macedonians have many blond(e) people in antiquity.

Ancient contemporary sources are very clear Cleopatra VII was a redhead, though.

[quote] Cleopatra was Greek. She looked like Nana Mouskouri.

In fact, when she first met Caesar she wore her glasses and a black beret.

And she sang like an angel!

For me, the best Cleopatra was Leonor Varela. Stunning!

R51

I don’t think so. And allegedly he would dye his hair to emulate his idol, Achilles.

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She was wearing those when she rolled out of the carpet, R53. Gave Caesar quite the start.

Are Gal and Patty fucking?

r56 Alexander the Great's physical appearance is a matter of historical record. Macedonians were more fair, they weren't swarthy like Phoenicians.

R60

There are clearly historical inaccuracies. The writers glorified and exaggerated them and turned them into these godly figures.

I think the mosaic at r56 makes much more sense and is more accurate than the writings. Ancient Macedonian men like Alexander the Great were in the sun all the time. There is no fucking way they were fair skinned.

Mashedonia

[quote]There are clearly historical inaccuracies. The writers glorified and exaggerated them and turned them into these godly figures.

There are contemporary accounts of Alexander the Great's physical appearance. He was blond. Where did you get the idea that Macedonians were uniformly dark and swarthy? Do you know, geographically, where Macedonia is located? Have you ever seen any Macedonians?

R63, what Greek word do the contemporary sources use that you're translating as "blonde"?

This would have been the perfect comeback vehicle for Zombie June Allyson!

GAGA was supposed to do this!

Unfair

Twitter photo shows her fake rabbity front teeth, ubiquitous in Hollywood.

Randa Jarrar is NOT HAPPY!

(some of the comments underneath are funny though)

I wonder what the overlap is between people who insist Cleopatra as a Macedonian Greek shouldn't be played by a white woman, with those who insist that Rita Ora from neighbouring Albania is white and therefore guilty of blackfishing?

I still think a Greek-Egyptian actress would be a better choice.

[quote]I wonder what the overlap is between people who insist Cleopatra as a Macedonian Greek shouldn't be played by a white woman

Macedonian Greeks are caucasian. Americans are so odd when it comes to shit like this.

my favorite Cleopatra was Andrea Marcovicci.

Cleopatra's father was very heavy - fat - and she tended to be plump and was constantly dieting. She also had a hook nose. Beautiful she wasn't. But she was very charming, had a great personality, and a hypnotic voice. She was one of a kind.

The most memorable screen Cleopatra thus far.

You're not wrong there, R71. It's also baffling how many of them are making idiotic statements about this on Twitter without even bothering to do research first and save themselves the embarrassment.

Gal Gadot is about the right age (35) and skin texture to play Cleopatra.

[quote] Cleopatra's father was very heavy - fat - and she tended to be plump and was constantly dieting. She also had a hook nose.

The busts of her sculpted of her during her lifetime posted above show a prominent nose, but not a hook nose.

I take them as more authoritative than your word.

It should have been ME! Fuck that skank Gal! UGH! I hate her I hate her I hate her!

R77 Coins of her from that era show her with a hook nose, probably also inherited from her father.

R59 no, but Chris and Patty did.

Chris Pine fucked Patty Jenkins? What???

You’re missing that Cleopatra was actually mixed. She also was Syrian and Persian. And who knows what else. So why is this Zionist playing a mixed Arab?

Is she eating Patty's pussy?

She wasn't mixed. Why do people ignore factual historical evidence?

R82, Hi Randa!

What did Marc Antony look like?

R86

Sexy

R61 Alexander can't be fair skinned because he was out in the sun all the time? You know what that's called? A tan! White people get them, it doesn't make them not white, it just means they have a sun tan. It's not white washing. Cleopatra was Macedonian, from a long line of in-bred Ptolemys. Macedonians were what would now be considered white. Having brown hair, doesn't mean you aren't white. Having brown eyes doesn't mean you aren't white. Having a tan from being out in the sun, doesn't mean you aren't white. Having all three of those together still doesn't mean you aren't white.

Strangely, Marc Antony looked like a three-pack-a-day raging alcoholic.

The Macedonians ruling Egypt were like the Boers in Africa. After several generations they became "from there" themselves but it didn't make them Black or of indigenous African heritage.

R82 Lol she wasn't Arab at all. There was no arabic in Egypt at that time. I know it's difficult for arabs to admit it but they are the only one who are still living like they never colonize any country when they colonized a lot. Why are arabs so uneducated ? Seriously ??? Egypt is in Africa and in Africa they was only black people before Greeks, Romans, Arabs and then European went there. Arabs come from the Arabian Peninsula as you see it, it is not at all in Africa.

R86 A bust of Mark Antony.

Mark Antony looked like a Bensonhurst guido.

She was the worst part of Wonder Woman.

She was no Lynda Carter, but I thought she did a good job as Wonder Woman.

R81 that's why he's in the sequel.

R95 and R96 who would you pick to play Wonder Woman?

R92, that's not true re: there only being black people in Africa. DNA testing has found the ancient Egyptians were most closely related to other peoples of the Levant. And that they shared far less of their genome with sub-Saharan Africans than modern Egyptians do today.

Re: R68, apparently:

[quote]I don’t read comments from anyone I don’t follow ::shrug:: my time is too precious

Not too precious to respond there though, I notice!

R98 Your article is pure bullshit. I prefer to read REAL scientists and not arabic invaders

R98 So according to you Turkish, Syrian and Lebanese come from Africa now ? LOOOOOOL please, get your fact straight and read historic books. Arabs and Turkish were NOT in Africa at that time since Arabs invaded and colonized North Africa in the VIII century. Turkish invaded the same region centuries later. And Lebanon did not exist yet. Stop spreading your fantasies and yourLIES. No one believe them.

I in no way said anything about Turkish, Syrian, Lebanese etc people being in Africa. I'm saying the DNA evidence shows that the ancient Egyptians were not black but were much closer related to other Levantine peoples. I never said they were Arabs from the beginning of time, I'm merely questioning your assertion that there were only black people in Africa then. Africa is and has been much more diverse than that.

Didn’t they want to hire an actress?

R102 You meant north Africa ? Because the rest of Africa wasn't diverse at all.

*Just to correct myself I'm adding a link who explains when Arabs invaded north Africa. I said the VIII it was the VII century. Here the History facts.

Well, all of sub-Saharan Africa wasn't and still isn't a monolith either.

R105 You're an ignorant. I'm done with you. Sub-Saharan wasn't diverse. It started being "diverse" when Arabs and then European invaded them colonized them and then enslaved them. End of.

I don't think I'm ignorant. I actually think it's more ignorant to claim all the different ethnic groups that go to make up sub-Saharan Africa are all the same, but that's just me. Anyway, it's beside the point, really. The question should instead be, does Gal Gadot have the acting chops to pull this off?

R106 Uh, not quite. Diverse African tribes had been warring, conquering and enslaving one another for eons before Arab and European invaders discovered them.

Coptics (think Rami Malek) were the original Egyptians.

How do you know that Chris Pine fucked Patti Jenkins? Christ, I can't even imagine.

Egypt like many other empires was a multi ethnic society, it's very much accepted by scholars that it looked like a lot like present Brazil, with people of all colors, ranging from blondes to dark skinned blacks and all the shades in between.

Anyway, the point is, it doesn't really matter what the ancient Egyptians looked like when discussing the meltdowns some people are having over Gal Gadot's skin colour. She's playing Cleopatra, and Cleopatra was Macedonian Greek from an incestuous family.

R109 He's a Moroccan. What don't you understand by: there were no Arabs in Egypt at the time of Cleopatra? What is wrong with you? Wanting to rewrite history will not change the facts.

Salma Hayek and even Mila Kunis could play Cleopatra. I always imagined Hayek as Cleopatra.

R108 That's correct, but it was between blacks. There were no whites in Sub-Saharan Africa at that time. There were kingdoms that waged wars at times. But diversity as we understand it today did not exist until the settlers came to them.

Will they include this scene?

Cleopatra hung out with cool cats...…...

R116 I hope so...

R115 misunderstands the word "diversity". People from different African tribes, who spoke different languages and had different customs/beliefs/dress and varying shades of skin color are also "diverse".

R119 Yep, I agree

Spot on, R119.

I gotta admit, I know very little about Cleopatra (my catnip when it comes to history is 20th century, maybe extending back into the late Victorian), but I might read up on her a bit, it sounds like her life must've be pretty interesting.

R110 i saw it on another gossip site. I thought it was weird that Steve is in the sequel when his character isnt needed.

[quote]Years of mixing with Turkish invaders have left Greeks and Macedonians looking much more Middle eastern than they did in ancient times.

There wasn't much mixing except those who converted to Islam. The Ottomans weren't "Middle Eastern", they came from Central Asia originally.

What peoples were living in North Africa before Arabs? What did they look like?

r113 Rami Malek is Egyptian.

The endless ( and pointless ) debate about her ethnicity and skin color or how "real" Cleopatra should look like will cancel this film before its even began.

[quote] Rami Malek is Egyptian.

He's American.

I honestly don’t find her to be that talented of an actress and I find her looks blandly pretty. I wish they would cast someone deserving of this who looks more like the original Cleopatra as well. Every famous portrayal has been a white woman with a lot of kohl eyeliner.

Stop it, gurls. We all came from Africa. Every single one of us.

R129 - don't be so sure, gran.

R129 stay out of this, Goop.

Carry On Cleo has never been topped.

No one even complained about the casting yet, someone just said "oh, there will probably be complaints" and the entire thread turned into racebaiting and trolling.

We could have been talking about her parents being siblings and how she herself married and murdered two of her own brothers, but no, this is what we got instead.

Actually, there have been massive threads complaining about the casting all over Twitter already.

Angelina is going to herd her children together and visit Nobu with them, to show she is just fine with Gadot playing her dream role.

In those leaked Scott Rubin emails, she apparently indicated she was ready to shave her head for this big role.

This ridiculous "controversy" over Cleopatra's race makes Americans look like total uneducated morons.

R136 From an outsider's viewpoint, Americans are pretty dumb.

I remember hot James Purefoy as Marc Antony in "Rome" and one scene where he was getting a blowjob from a young guy - damn that was a great scene.

R136/R137, it's actually given me a rather terrifying glimpse into the US education system. It's not just the lack of knowledge (and there's nothing wrong with that if you're willing to learn), it's the aggressive ignorance about it. Like they've learnt that you never admit you're wrong or you should never be concerned with thinking critically, you just doggedly stick to your argument no matter how stupid it makes you sound. It's freaky.

What are some twitter threads about Americans being ignorant? I am always so entertained by dumb Americans!

This was supposed to be my role!!

German Gay Guy, here is one of the many threads, if you go down and expand the posts where people are claiming Cleopatra wasn't white or this another case of whitewashing in Hollywood etc, you'll find some very funny responses.

Here's another thread if you're interested:

Cleopatra was trending worldwide. It wasn't just americans whining.

And for good measure, here's that thread by Randa Jarrar. She says she knows Cleopatra was Greek (bet she only found that out yesterday haha), but she still has issues, basically with the fact Gadot is Jewish. There's some funny stuff under here, and you just know Jarrar is both thrilled because she hasn't had this much engagement on Twitter since 2018, and also she'll be pretend upset - throwing this around as another example of how victimised she is online:

To be fair R144, the whining comes from a very specific US American perspective (obsession?) on race and the portrayal of it in movies.

FYI: Alexander the Great, who was Ptolemy's half brother, and Macedonian as Ptolemy was, both of them having Phillip of Macedon as a father, Alexander was described consistently, by multiple sources, as not particularly tall, and he had blue/grey eyes, and his hair was golden and thick and wire-y, often described as "like a lion's mane." It was unruly and his father apparently pitched a shit fit when, once, when preparing the child Alexander to sit beside his father in the throne room for some diplomatic audiences, his nurses and his mother groomed him, pomaded his hair and tried to curl it, and in general made him look like an over groomed sissy boy. he was muscular and he enjoyed athletic games and contests of endurance. He was a very tough scrappy little guy when growing up. He was also trained as a child in Spartan ways to toughen him up.

R138, Can't find the blowjob scene here, but plenty of other James Purefoy here, including as Marc Antony in Rome, for those interested.

R148 - gracias!

Oh, gee, another Cleopatra. Good to know there is one and only one woman who lived in the ancient world for Hollywood. Splendid, fresh and zzzzzzzzzzzzz

It is not at all clear that Ptolemy I was Alexander's half-brother. It is more likely something the Ptolemies made up to enhance their authority.

There is no way Alexander was blond for most of his life. He may have been blond as a child or at some point in his life, he may have dyed/bleached his hair as well. But with his heritage, and parents, for him to be naturally blond would be incredibly rare and almost impossible.

Also, there was also no way he was “fair skinned”. He had bronze brown skin and survived the sun. White people cannot survive the sun.

you know that peoples moved around, right, r152? You know that just because a lot of darker skinned people live in an area today doesn't mean they always looked that way, right? You have heard of conquerors? There were a few in those days, including Alexander and his ancestors.

As for surviving the sun. Well, that kind of happens all over the world.

SJWs and black Twitter are going after her. They even say, how dare they cast a Zionist who's taking Egypt's land from them, "Now she's taking their roles!"

Can we just get to the real problem: Gal Gadot can't act. She shouldn't even have a career she's so horrible.

R23, you can't trust Roman depictions of Cleopatra. The Romans had a practice of insulting their conquests in both literature and portraiture. She was their conquered and they would never depict her .

You also can't go by the coins of the time either as the Egyptians just reused old casts of prior leaders and tweaked them to represent the current leader. Cleo's were old recasts of male leaders.

When Cleo and Mark Antony were on their long tour of their lands and in Greece Antony wanted to commission a portrait of Cleopatra. The artist who either created a portrait or at least saw Cleopatra in person was later asked to make a portrait of her after her death for Caesar Augustus since he was unable to have Cleopatra in the parade of the vanquished that the Romans held to humiliate their conquered peoples. Cleo having avoided that humiliation via suicide. The recreation by that artist was in the encaustic style on slate which makes it easy to date. That portrait was reportedly paraded through the streets of Rome on a cart. There is some tracing of its provenance but it was lost for many years and later found in 1818 in a crate in the ruins of Hadrian's villa on the outskirts of Rome. The stone it was made on was broken into 16 pieces but it was complete. It was repaired and placed on display in various museums/galleries in Europe and London. It was lost again but a steel engraving was allegedly made of it. The picture is a digital reproduction of the engraving. There are lots of articles on this portrait and a very interesting one from around 1880.

Many black Americans insist that ancient Egyptians were black Africans.

Hollywood needs a GIVE IT A FUCKING REST list: Various men, but for the women of history:

Cleopatra Anne Boleyn Elizabeth I Mary, Queen of Scots Marie Antoinette Catherine the Great Empress Alexandra

Pick somebody new, you unimaginative hacks.

sorry, screwed up the formatting, but still ...

Some people have been suggesting they make a movie of Hatshepsut. I don't know much about her, but by all accounts had a fascinating life and would be an interesting subject for a movie.

I've noticed this too R157, I kinda didn't want to ask about it in case it lead to racist rantings on here, which I'm not interested in. But I am interested in why this is a thing. Is it related to this "hotep" thing I remember them discussing on "Dear White People"? I'm being very ignorant here, but am very interested to learn. Time for some googling!

It's sort of a silly argument, r160. They were blacker than me, whiter than Nigerians and Kenyans. The whole claiming thing gets phenomenally silly when you talk about the Ancient World. I'm white, so I guess I get to "claim" ancient Rome and ancient Greece. Except my ancestors are largely German and Irish, who had fuck all to do with either civilization at the time.

r152 you must be an American who has never traveled to that region of the world. Macedonians are caucasian and many have blue-green eyes and fair hair. In fact, many Greeks can be blue-eyed too and it was even more prevalent among ancient Greeks.

Thanks R161, and yes I agree, it does seem phenomenally silly. And in this particular case it's even weirder because Cleopatra wasn't even Egyptian. Maybe in the future people will think the last Viceroy of India, Louis Mountbatten had to be Indian?

Some years back when Stacy Schiff's book first came out and there was talk of Angelina Jolie playing Cleopatra I remember all the controversy and the revisions put forth about her physical features. I looked into it and found that the most recent controversy and, at the time, the latest revised "depiction" of Cleopatra was commissioned and offered up by a woman in England who was teaching inmates at a prison and had been looking for a way to engage her prison students (many of whom were black) in ancient history. She admittedly came up with the revised imagining of Cleopatra based on her wanting to make them interested in Egyptian history by making her look African rather than her true heritage.

Real scholars of ancient Egyptian history knew that there was no way any "mixed blood" person would be allowed anywhere near the throne. Even if there had been some illegitimate offspring they would never have been allowed to be acknowledged or be in anyway in line for the throne. These are people who preferred incest to what they considered polluting the blood line. These revised historical concepts are such BS.

There is a modern digital recreation of the steel engraving that was reportedly taken from the encaustic portrait and quite frankly she looks like Cate Blanchett to me.

R162, this is very true for that part of the world. In my case, I'm a pale-skinned redhead who speaks Italian, and every Italian I've met will always ask me: "What part of Italy are you/your family from?" I've also had Spanish people ask me what part of Spain I'm from. I'm actually of Irish/Scottish/Scandinavian heritage. But it makes complete sense to people from the Mediterranean that I could be from there.

It's only other friends I have not from the area who have a set idea of what "Mediterranean" means that laugh and say: "as if anyone could think [italic]you're[/italic] from Italy/Spain!"

R162

The Macedonians of today are not the Ancient Macedonians, idiot. They are descendants of the Slavics who took over Macedonia and have no connection to Greek.

It is pretty rare for Greeks to be blond and blue eyed. That’s the truth. Alexander’s parents were neither. It’s just not realistic.

The mosaic at r56 accurately shows Alexander. He clearly was not what these stories told. They glorified him and turned him into this godly figure. And obviously things got pretty fucking jumbled.

[quote]The Macedonians of today are not the Ancient Macedonians, idiot. They are descendants of the Slavics who took over Macedonia and have no connection to Greek.

You have no understanding of history.

r166 read r147. There are contemporary accounts of Alexander's physical appearance by people who knew him.

These Woke Twitter idiots won't be happy until Roxane Gay is cast as Cleopatra.

Thanks R169, I just choked laughing so hard!

I mean it, thanks! Haven't laughed like that for ages. I needed it.

I see another Glitter bomb.

Someone calling themselves Sameera Khan (I don't know who she is but she has a blue check against her name) is outraged that Hollywood didn't choose an Arab to play Cleopatra, and then explains further that they should've cast an Arab because "Cleopatra was part Greek and part Berber". I just... I don't... you can't reason with people who are so illogical!

This counts as slavery reparations for the Jews.

Very few people are their modern peoples. The Gauls, the Britons, the Lusitanians, the Philistines, and so many others. Everyone got jostled around. The "Rus" were the Scandinavians who took over and invented Russia. This shit happens all over the world.

Interestingly, R173, there's no evidence the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt. I saw a really interesting discussion by Biblical historians on that once. What they were saying is that at the time those stories were being told, Jews [italic]were[/italic] slaves in Babylon, and that story was kind of a fable with a positive outcome designed to keep the faith that the current situation they were in would have a happy ending too.

I find the way we humans have developed our mythologies to be so fascinating!

I agree r175. I think Exodus is completely invented. Ancient Egypt was not a slave society. There were slaves, as there were in most times and places, but there is a big difference in societies where slave do most of the work. Egypt was a peasant society. Most people who did the real work were Egyptians who were free. They might not all have had fun and easy lives, but they weren't slaves. I think the Bible invented all that.

It's possible, but there is just no evidence for the kind of story the Book of Exodus tells, especially the Exodus itself.

[quote] The "Rus" were the Scandinavians who took over and invented Russia.

I never knew this! Interesting!

or they could, ya know, skip the whole Cleopatra version 10.infinity and actually tell the story of an Arab princess, or a berber, or an African, or an anything else. That might be interesting too.

Yep, R178, see now I think that's a fair criticism of the project. Instead of always rehashing the same stories, how good would it be if they found new ones to tell? As I mentioned above, I've seen Hatshepsut mentioned a few times by people, although all I know of her is that apparently she was obese, balding and had a beard... so I wonder which actress would like to take that on? Haha. Nefertiti is another one. I don't know their stories but people say they are very interesting and would make good movies.

R175 is pushing lies.

Unfortunately, little is known about Nefertiti.

I think Hatshepsut would be a great choice, and an actual feminist choice if they want to go that route, very much unlike Cleopatra who was a famous woman but it's just silly to make her at all feminist.

Incidentally, Hatshepsut didn't have a beard. She had a fake "pharaoh" beard made to strap on her face, since she was Pharaoh.

Nefertiti was a beautiful woman, and it's kind of wonderful that you can still see how beautiful 3,000 years later because of that bust of Nefertiti. But I don't know that her story is anything more than loyal wife and decent mother.

No, he really isn't r180. Exodus seems to be invented.

Only to a racist like you.

Is this a whole Israel is always right thing, r184, or do you actually have any historical objection?

Spoken like a true racist.

got it, thanks, Netanyahu

Yeah, once someone's argument boils down to calling others racist with no justification, I think we can pretty much dismiss them.

Thanks R182, that's really interesting stuff, and I think I'm gonna have to go and read up more on Hatshepsut.

Honestly, despite the bitter intruder, I would say looking into actual ancient Israelite history might not be a bad idea either. Although a lot of the Bible is pure invention and nonsense, there is no question that there was a Kingdom of Israel and a Kingdom of Judah at some point. Bringing them alive, especially Judah in the last years, might be a very fascinating movie in itself. Obviously, the Book they wrote in the days of King Josiah has had a hell of an impact on human history and that whole story would be fascinating.

r189 they did a Biblical epic a few years ago called Exodus: Gods and Kings with Christian Bale and it had people screaming about white actors playing various Middle Eastern/Semitic peoples. It was a big shitshow.

The movie itself was actually quite good but got lost in the controversy.

yeah, that is what we do in this culture r190. Focus on the stupid shit and not the stuff that actually matters. God, this country is depressing sometimes. We can't deal with ideas. We deal with nonsense about skin color instead.

It's bullshit r191. It's called "acting" for a reason. As long as an actor is close enough to a certain physical type, that should be all that matters.

Christ, British actors have been playing ancient Romans for generations.

and also, not to belabor this point, but damn, white is such a moving target. Syrians are not black. Arabians are not black. Subsaharan Africans are black. Not Middle Easterners. It doesn't matter, it truly makes no difference, but if we are going to be freaks about this, could we stop pretending that people who thought of themselves as Mediterraneans, if they ever thought about themselves like that at all, are not "People of Color." Could we all just stop.

Heh, so true, r192. The general idea in history, at least as this American has ever seen it, is that upper class people from every era have spoken with upper class British accents, and lower class people forever have been Cockney.

And you know what, it wasn't a trauma.

I Claudius, dammit. We get it. Livia was not actually a British duchess, she just sounded like one. We don't have to fall apart about that.

Fuck me, turns out that that Sameera Khan at R172 is a JOURNALIST. My god how standards have fallen!

Natalia Kills should play Cleopatra

R197

Whoops I mean “Teddy Sinclair”. She no longer goes by Natalia Kills

How does Gal Gadot get to play 2 larger than life female characters with her lack of acting chops?

They should just not touch this thing though. Truth is, as long as they cast somebody southern european/balkan/african/arab their ethnicity should not be an issue, but everybody has an opinion now. It isnt like Miss Cleo had an instagram.

She’s going to get cast as Xena next.

R200 don't even joke about that.

We literally will hear shrieks of how "the only actor allowed to play Cleopatra is a trans woman of color!" They will use the male form of the noun "actor" for this trans "woman", really! Reasonable people will nod and agree!

R202

No one has mentioned trans but you. Obsessed psycho

I am available.

When Elizabeth Taylor played Cleopatra no gave a fuck it was a white woman...and a British Jew to boot....no, wait. She wasn't a Jew yet. Wait. Yes. Yes she was! Because she was married to Eddie Fisher and converted for him even though she didn't for Mike Todd who she claimed was the love of her life...until she started fucking Richard Burton.

A lot of people here have old-fashioned ideas about conquest. DNA analysis has confirmed existing theories that they made little difference to the population in terms of genetics. Brits today (English, Welsh, Scots) are overwhelmingly the same genetically as they have been for thousands of years. Incoming groups ('Celts', Roman, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Normans and other French) only had the tiniest impact, as the very small numbers of incomers were absorbed into the population over a relatively short period of time. What they did was import and spread a collection of cultural modes that ended up taking over. These had a selection from an range of things including language, religion, political customs, costume, modes of fighting and so on. The same thing is true for the Middle East and North Africa - the people there now are genetically and racially (whatever that really means) much the same as they always were. Populations are hardly ever totally replaced in the linked Eurasian/African worlds. Thanks to disease it would be different in the New World, though only after the 16th century.

R206

Bullshit. To say Slavic Macedonians are no different from Greek Macedonians is pure crap. In fact, many Greeks are offended by that nonsense.

Yeah, that's ridiculous statement. Mongols had HUGE impact on modern genetic composition of most of Russia and China.

Dull as ditchwater - as almost all the women cast in those superhero/ine films were, from Larson to Gadot.

The Avengers lot did better: Scarlett Johanson gave Black Widow the juice she needed and Elizabeth Olsen as Scarlet Witch also did well, but the Superwoman, Wonderwoman, and Captain Marvel-into-Captainette Marvel were stupefyingly dull. Of course, that is true of Cavill as Superman, as well.

Someone tell the antisemitic troll upthread that if the Jews were really in control of Hollywood, two-thirds of the A-List stars with names like Pitt, Clooney, Downey, Depp, etc., wouldn't be household names.

Brie Larson is easily as dull as Gadot and not nearly as pretty, and somehow, despite being about as Jewish as the last Tsarina of Russia, she got a superhero role, too. Tell us again the religious affiliations of the other stars of the Marvel and DC films outside of Scarlett Johanson?

Oh, right: Hiddlestein, Hemsroth, Cheadleberg, Rennerstein, and Evangold.

[Quote] but the Superwoman

????

Remember how batshit the Jews went when Charlton Heston played Moses?

Thanks to a few commenters here, I checked out some clips of Cleopatra from the Rome series. I never thought I'd be interested in that show, but now I'm thinking I might check out more, it does seem interesting.

At the very least I just want to know why she arrived in Rome wrapped up in a carpet.

How sad that people are conflating superheroes with historical figures?

Rome was a good show.

I recognized that nose from the bust. There are plenty of Jews in Israel that have that exact same nose as well as the eye bags. What's odd is that they chose an Ashkenazi Jew for the role when most middle eastern Jews would have fit.

Americans think Italians and Sicilians are the same thing. You think they'd know the difference between Jews?

That woman at R145 keeps gasping: "The caucasity!" at these types of things, but... she looks pretty white herself.

She’s middle eastern... should be played by an African actress, but.. I’ll accept it

Who's Middle Eastern? Cleopatra? No, she wasn't. She wasn't African either.

The darker Greeks came from Turkey. Yes. And the blonde Greeks among whom were the Macedonians came from mainland Greece, and there was always prejudice between them. In fact to this day Macedonians will tell you they are Macedonians not "Greeks." Just like Italians will tell you they are Italians not Sicilians. Now you want some interesting lineage go check out the Sicilians going back a couple thousand years. Oh, and someone mentioned the Mongol hoards? Shit. The co-mingling is what gave us the current Sllavis peoples of today in Eastern Europe. Go look at a damned Map. Jeez.

Speaking of Sicily, a number of people from there are pale-skinned redheads, due to the Norman invasion of 1061 (redheads are known as "normanne" in Sicily) and it is believed that it is from there that the ginger gene spread into mainland Italy.

Americans believe that all Italians are dark and swarthy because of the immigration patterns to the US.

This movie is not the same project that was being planned with Angelina Jolie from the book by Stacey Schiff, whose latest attached director was Denis Villeneuve. This is a separate project that will probably annihilate plans for the other one. This one was written by Gal Gadot among others.

You lot all know that Daniel Radcliffe wasn't a real magician, right?

I understand the Sorcerers' Guild made some noise about the casting in Harry Potter, but, as they complained bitterly, "Who listens to us!?"

Not to mention the difference in scale of pay between Fawkes (who, after all, was the real deal), and those charlatan wannabees waving their wands around but wouldn't know a decent spell from a child's nursery rhyme . . .

R224

You’re comparing a fake magical world to a biopic about a real person.

Italians begin to lighten up once you go north of Rome. Southern Italians are darker, just as the Greeks from the Cyclades and other island groups especially those closer to Turkey and the Middle East, especially Persia, tend to be swarthy. It would be interesting to study the history of migratory patterns.

Ahh, but due to the Norman invasion as mentioned above, there's a number of lighter skinned peoples as far south as Sicily, so you can never tell. When I meet Italians, they always assume I'm from Sicily if they have to guess, and I'm a redhead.

You know, when people read history our impressions a re colored by what we see in movies. For instance, we look at The special effects of a movie like Troy, and we see literally tens of thousands of soldiers storming the beaches, or we watch a film about the battles in England or France, and imagine thousands and thousands of soldiers, or we read a book abut Alexander and his father was King of Macedonia. But really. What distinguished Philip of Macedonia was his ambition and his ferocity, his ability to go beyond his tribe, so to speak, and dominate other regions. He united the Greeks. The various regions on the mainland were unruly. They tended to gather around their cities and tribes. Yes. They were very tribal. But Philip had ambitions to go beyond and go after the PErsians. It was his dream. He didn't get there, but his son did.

"You’re comparing a fake magical world to a biopic about a real person."

R225 You said it, it's a biopic. "Pic". It's ALL fake. The words are made up, the situations are made up for dramatic purposes, characters from real life are erased or integrated into other characters to be able to tell the story in 2 hours, the sets are made of wood or digitized and the make-up is the latest from the cosmetics world, actors speak in English instead of the characters' original language... But God forbid they use an Israeli actress to play an Egyptian queen because all hell will break loose.

Cleopatra already had her crack at playing a powerful ancient woman in Alexander. She was horrible. Thank God she's too old now to be cast as Cleopatra. It would be a shitshow.

Ha ha--I meant ANGELINA had her crack.

It is odd that people get so hung up on casting for type yet don't seem to mind British accents and modern slang in their historical epics.

Dumb psychos like this one are going to get people to root for this movie even if it's crap. I didn't care much, now I'm really hoping they manage to pull off something special.

R124, see R98 and R100

[quote]Dumb psychos like this one are going to get people to root for this movie even if it's crap.

It makes me want them to cast Margot Robbie as Cleopatra just to piss them off and make them go batshit.

r234 Ancient Egyptians were not sub-Saharan Africans.

A recent archeological study found that the excavated mummies closest kin were ancient farmers from a region that includes present day Israel and Jordan. Modern Egyptians have inherited more of their DNA from central Africans.

r235, this 'girl's' fixation with Gal Gadot is that she's Israeli and Jewish, she's upset that Cleo won't be played by a middle eastern (Muslim) woman (even though you could make that argument that Gadot is, partially) despite the fact that Cleopatra was Greek/Macedonian, and despite that fact that even this 'girl' is larping as middle eastern

[quote] Americans think Italians and Sicilians are the same thing. You think they'd know the difference between Jews?

Most Americans can't even tell Jews and Italians apart.

Many Italians have portrayed Jews and vice versa.

On a personal level I'm thrilled that the granddaughter of an Auschwitz survivor is upsetting so many Israel obsessives hot under the collar. Too Jewish for the Nazis, too white European for the progressives.

Even The Guardian's inevitable piece joining in on the outrage felt it necessary to report on which strand of Jew Gadot is, i.e. the wrong type of Jew to play someone who ruled the neighbouring country to where they were born.

British Indian actor Krishna Pandit Bhanji aka Ben Kingsley had no problems playing several real life Jews - Otto Frank, Itzhak Stern, Simon Wiesenthal and Meyer Lansky. Maybe his Indianness helped him pass as the right kind of Jew.

So now that these idiots have been schooled that Cleopatra was ethnically Macedonian Greek (common knowledge that should've been known since grade school) they've moved on to criticizing Gadot's Jewishness as being offensive.

These people are fucking insufferable.

Sorry black people and blackwashing white folks, but Cleopatra was not African nor would she appear to be a modern African/African-American. That's simply fact and has been documented for, literally thousands of years. You don't get to rewrite history for the rest of the world the way you've done in the states, just like you don't get to go to other countries and knock down statues or other historical artifacts your modern woke'ness helps you get off on doing. Luckily, there are still some in Hollywood and the rest of the world who won't let you completely bastardize and dictate entertainment or historic perspective so, pity.

Oh, and she's gonna be played by a Jew. So, suck that too.

That Syrian Girl at R233 is apparently an Australian and as a fellow Australian I am so ashamed. I had a quick look at her YouTube channel and it is choc-a-block full of conspiracy theories. Girl is NUTS! I agree, while I have no interest in this movie in particular, I kinda hope it does really well and inspires a lot of people to dress up as Cleopatra for future Hallowe'ens, just to really annoy the easily offended.

R242, insufferable is right! Relating to what R243 said, I feel like lately I'm seeing over and over how certain Americans really don't understand that the world outside their country is different, and in fact [italic]refuse[/italic] to see that we're not what they think we are. It's so arrogant. If you don't know something, there's no shame in admitting it and learning from it, but there's this segment of people who continually insist they know us better than we know ourselves, and if you finally convince them that they're wrong, their point becomes: "Oh well, the way you do things is weird/wrong then." It really is insufferable.

Aside from the all important question of which exact ethnic group is allowed to play Cleopatra, I wonder about WHY Cleopatra? Why must her story be told for the 1000th time?

I found that Guardian article mentioned above; holy god, someone was allowed to publish that? She starts off saying: "because the ethnic origin of her mother remains unverified it has strengthened the idea that the Egyptian ruler was of mixed heritage" and then finishes the article saying: "So given what we now understand about the Queen of Egypt’s heritage..." Those two things don't match. It reminds me so much of that idiot, Tia Taylor, devoting a whole half an hour to discussing the Adele issue where she starts off making up her own reasons why cultural appropriation is a real thing based on nothing except, as she literally says: "you may disagree but I don't care, I know I'm right" and finishes by saying that we all have seen now how cultural appropriation is a real thing, therefore her arguments are correct.

That's very disappointing, I used to read the Guardian and held it in higher esteem than that.

Cleopatra overlooking the harbor in Alexandria.

Oh wait. Is this better?

She was not of my times.

And some people confuse Medes and Persians!

Re: R246

[quote]It’s an unfortunate coincidence that Gadot will be next seen in Death on the Nile, a film with an Egyptian setting also which, like its 1978 predecessor, fails to include any north African actors in the main cast – and is yet another example of how cinema colonises foreign regions for its own white-centric purpose.

This makes no sense (like the rest of the article). Death on the Nile was adapted from a novel about the wealthiest of British and American peoples travelling down the Nile and getting involved in a murder mystery. How is that cinema colonising foreign regions for its own white-centric purpose?

How could we have known that when we fought for equality that these were the battles people were willing to die on. Pathetic.

That's so depressingly true, R252.

Hanna Flint, who wrote the god awful Guardian article, is a generally a really good journalist when writing about films but some awful politics are seeping into her writing.

She’s the daughter of former Labour MP Caroline Flint (Generally a good egg and victor in the scrap with smug cunt Emily Thonbully) and her father is a Tunisian man who was deported from the U.K. for being violent and abusive onwards them.

I have to admit R254, I don't know what that was about, but I still enjoyed the video, haha!

Maybe Hanna should just stick to what she knows, because that article was embarrassing. And I have to say, even the film reference in there re: Death on the Nile was perplexing. One of the comments I saw on Twitter was a guy saying he still loved The Guardian's news coverage, but he felt their opinion pieces were getting REALLY strange. Perhaps that's the case? I haven't read The Guardian for a few years now, but I know they sometimes get Roxane Gay to write opinion pieces, which is a bit of a sign to me that things are heading south, haha.

The incredibly attractive Hugo Rifkind, who is also a journalist and the child of a former MP, had this to say in response.

[quote] I understand that sort of column. I've written them. It's one of those ones where you're so convinced of your own rightness when you start, and then it all falls apart morally and factually along the way, and you deny it to yourself, but you know. She knows.

The most important thing for me is that Angelina won't be playing her.

I find that immensely satisfying in terms of schadenfreude, as well as a relief knowing I won't have to suffer through an Angelina/Cleopatra publicity campaign.

R23 The bust of Cleopatra looks like Aidan Quinn.

[quote] One of the comments I saw on Twitter was a guy saying he still loved The Guardian's news coverage, but he felt their opinion pieces were getting REALLY strange. Perhaps that's the case? I haven't read The Guardian for a few years now, but I know they sometimes get Roxane Gay to write opinion pieces, which is a bit of a sign to me that things are heading south, haha.

The article liked being an example of what’s happening at The Guardian.

There was also one recently about how black people feel the Labour Party is racist under Keir Starmer and are leaving as a result with one single person who left quoted. The writer was also a Corbyn fan who dismissed the anti Jewish racism under Corbyn.

They’re copying right wing papers but the problem for The Guardian is that many on the left don’t think they should have to pay for news.

[quote] She looks nothing like Cleopatra. Why can’t they get a real Egyptian to play her, a brown skin woman?

Because Egyptians ---like Cleopatra--- don't have have brown skin.

That's a great quote at R256 and I bet that's exactly what happened.

R239 - American Jews in particular have been "marrying out" since the 1960s in such large numbers that even the Reform community became alarmed for its heritage. All Jews don't have dark skin and large noses, any more than all Muslims look like Sadiq Khan (cf. all those "white" Muslims in the Balkans) and you'll find plenty of, say, Irish nationals with dark hair and big noses or just big noses.

Paul Newman was half-Jewish (his father), Scarlett Johansson is Jewish, John Garfield was Jewish and could have passed for an Irishman in the streets of Dublin if he didn't open his mouth . . . Ffs, no one screeched when the divinely handsome Omar Sharif played Nicky ARNSTEIN ("what a beautiful beautiful name . . ." did they?!

What the fuck is the obsession on this site about the "look" of people when there are so many variables everywhere?

Gal Gadot's problem isn't that she's not Greek or Egyptian, but that she's a really bad actress and profoundly dull. End of.

I didn't hear the PC Brigade screeching when a nearly menopausal 47-year-old black actress of Nigerian parentage was selected to play the 20-year-old historically and verifiably white Queen Margaret of Anjou opposite a 30-year-old Tom Sturridge as her husband, Henry VII, whose mother she looked like.

Cut the crap. The whole thing is the usual social media double standard bullshit.

R262 I've never seen Gal Gadot in anything and this production will continue the streak. What is it with Hollywood trying to make these incredibly unappealing people (male & female) into 'stars'.

People don't do to the movies anymore for 'stars'. Also, I've only ever seen one film directed by Patty Jenkins which was Monster and that was awful aside from Christina Ricci. After the mess of Monster I'm not interested in watching anything Patty Jenkins make.

There is over 100 years of years to sit through and lots of great stuff too that I'd much rather watch again they sit through this probably turkey.

[quote]All Jews don't have dark skin and large noses, any more than all Muslims look like Sadiq Khan (cf. all those "white" Muslims in the Balkans) and you'll find plenty of, say, Irish nationals with dark hair and big noses or just big noses.

Stunned to learn that Bosnian Muslims have different characteristics to Pakistani Muslims, and that they both have different characteristics to Egyptian Muslims.

It's as if Irish Catholics have different characteristics to Spanish Catholics, or Filipino Catholics, or Nigerian Catholics. Funny that.

But while Catholic and Muslim represents someone's religious beliefs, Jewish represents someone's ethnicity as well as their religious belief. Anyone who has followed the outpouring of antisemitism in the UK over the last few years know that atheist Jews get as much abuse as religious or cultural Jews.

[quote]I didn't hear the PC Brigade screeching when a nearly menopausal 47-year-old black actress of Nigerian parentage was selected to play the 20-year-old historically and verifiably white Queen Margaret of Anjou opposite a 30-year-old Tom Sturridge as her husband, Henry VII, whose mother she looked like.

Sophie Okonedo is also Jewish.

When Angelina Jolie played Marianne Pearl there was some outcry that she shouldn't play a woman with African, Chinese and Jewish heritage, and the response was that Jolie's mother was Frenchish and Pearl was raised in Paris.

yeah it is an awfully confused "standard." On the one hand, color is nothing and black people can play any role in any era of history or any Shakespeare play or really any other play from any era or culture, especially European cultures. On the other hand, color is everything and everyone remotely "of color" (and that itself is a shitty, stupid "standard") must be portrayed by somebody carefully evaluated for their exact ethnic makeup. It's stupid, and I imagine everyone will get bored by it after awhile. Before than, there will be a lot of stunt casting.

R265, it also helped that Pearl & Angie are close friends and Pearl insisted Angie tell her story.

Elizabeth Taylor was fine as Cleopatra. It was the screenplay that was stultifying. On the other hand Amanda Barrie was awesome as Cleopatra in Carry On Cleo in a film that knew exactly what it was and never dragged for a moment. If that is the one they're remaking with Gal Gadot as Cleo I'll certainly give it a look.

[quote]No one has mentioned trans but you. Obsessed psycho.

Are you triggered because you're too homely to be considered?

Ok, we'll open the category to include the "unfortunately visaged"!

[quote]I have to admit [R254], I don't know what that was about, but I still enjoyed the video, haha!

It was a spat between two Labour MPs - Caroline Flint (represented working class pro Brexit north of England constituency, daughter of an alcoholic who had her at 17) and Emily Thornberry (represents middle class north London ultra Remain constituency, daughter of the former Assistant-Secretary-General of the United Nations, wife of The Honourable Mr Justice Sir Christopher Nugee, lives in a £3m mansion).

Flint was an experienced minister during the Blair/Brown governments, Flint and Thornberry were both shadow minister in opposition, although Thornberry had to resign because of a snobbish tweet about a house with an England flag in the window and a white van on the drive, which resulted in Ed Miliband saying he felt proud when he saw a white van.

When Corbyn became leader Flint took a step back but Thornberry became one Corbyn's most sycophantic cheerleaders and enablers when he clearly wasn't up to the job. She had her moment in the spotlight and nothing was going to stop her getting that attention. She really debased herself over Labour's response to the Russian Novichock attack in Salisbury, when Corbyn initially sided with the Russians. Her media performances were often ridiculed with the host of Question Time pointing out to her "But the audience are laughing at you". Thornberry even defended Corbyn's antisemitism with "my own children have Jewish heritage" and rubbished the Panorama programme featuring whistleblowers Labour has since paid damages to.

Both campaigned for Remain during Brexit and Labour's policy was all over the place. At first Labour were committed to leaving the EU but on different terms to the Tory government, then it was ambiguous, then Thornberry campaigned for a second referendum, turning up to an event with a necklace of stars like the EU flag. Flint recognised the danger in telling people like her constituents they'd got it wrong and it that Labour would suffer in any election as a result. Fast forward to the December 2019 election when Jeremy Corbyn announced Labour would hold a second referendum if elected, but he would remain neutral throughout. Labour fell to its worst defeat in 80 years and Flint lost her seat which Labour had held since 1922.

When Corbyn stood down as leader Thornberry announced she would stand but is so disliked amongst other Labour MPs she didn't even get through the first round with support from 10% of MPs. During an interview about why Labour lost so badly, Flint said the second referendum pledge had been a massive factor and the influence of London MPs had been fatal for Labour MPs in leave seats, and she said Thornberry had told another MP "I'm glad my constituents aren't as stupid as yours". Thornberry announced she was taking legal action against Flint, but unsurprisingly nothing has materialised.

Basically Caroline Flint is a decent pragmatic honest woman and Thornberry is an insincere egotistical sneering liar.

R264 - No one is saying that "ethnic" i.e., non-observant Jews don't get the same antisemitic shit observant Jews do. The Jews occupy a very special place in Europe, where, if they didn't exist, they'd have had to be invented.

But in fact, yes, Balkan Muslims don't look like Nigerian Muslims and Egyptians come in a wide range of shades . . . in fact, the widow of the late Anwar Sadat, in her memoir, related how horrified her mother was at how dark he was when Jihan announced that she intended to marry Sadat.

Colourism, as the black community names it, exists in Korea, Iran, China, and the Middle East - which tells you immediately that, yes, lots of stereotypes are just that.

Yes Jews are an "ethnicity". Muslims are not, or not yet it remains to be seen what happens after 100 years in Europe and increasing intermarriage, just as happened with Jews in America and then the rest of the West, and is happening in Britain with the Afro-Caribbean population (currently at about 4%).

Which is why these "cultural appropriation" discussions become so ludicrous. One must bow to the logic of a black middle-aged actress playing a historic 20 year old white French princess opposite a 30 year old King Henry, but Gadot playing Cleopatra begs a heated discussion.

I repeat my conclusion: it's the usual double-standard nonsensical bullshit.

Even the black community is starting to question colour-blind casting.

I brought up Potter above for a reason: one of these days the Wiccans are going to start demanding that only "real" witches and wizards should play these roles.

Thanks for taking the time to explain that R270, appreciate it.

I love Sophie Okonedo, always happy when people discuss her because I've always been impressed with her in the roles I've seen her in. Looking forward to seeing her in Death on the Nile - probably the only thing I [italic]am[/italic] looking forward to with that movie, haha.

[quote] On the other hand, color is everything and everyone remotely "of color" (and that itself is a shitty, stupid "standard") must be portrayed by somebody carefully evaluated for their exact ethnic makeup. It's stupid, and I imagine everyone will get bored by it after awhile.

Yeah, this is it in a nutshell really. I don't get this constant need to evaluate people's exact ethnic makeup, and it's getting more and more involved all the time. I'm not trying to America-bash here, because obviously this is an issue around the world, but the specific, down to the nth degree type examination of people's backgrounds at this point in time seems to be particularly American and is getting foisted on the rest of the world as being the "right" way to think about things. It's sometimes like in people's attempts to not be racist, they end up being incredibly racist themselves.

What's so sad about the whole thing is that scientifically, race isn't a real thing. We've invented it and now spend our lives looking at others for the reason why they are different from us. And the target moves the whole time: Jews are white, oh but they're "people of colour" (wretched term!). Same for Italians, Greeks, Egyptians... basta!

[quote] the specific, down to the nth degree type examination of people's backgrounds at this point in time seems to be particularly American and is getting foisted on the rest of the world as being the "right" way to think about things.

The Nazis invented it and is being foist upon us by left wing academics of all people.

Right, R273? It's so bizarre. How did that happen? Honestly, I have no idea where I fit in the scheme of things anymore as I am on the left, but I don't identify with this kind of thing at all. It's so contrary to values of inclusiveness, multiculturalism, treating people based on the content of their character... etc.

Should have been Billy Porter.

R274 I watched a fascinating documentary on Youtube about the descendants of the Nazis who are now many generations removed. Many, especially those who were still alive at the time (although babies) said they still felt guilt, while many others said that they don't feel responsible because they chose to reject persecution based on genetic identity.

Interesting, R276. I can't even imagine what it'd be like to know you had family members who were Nazis!

R272 - "I'm not trying to America-bash here, because obviously this is an issue around the world, but the specific, down to the nth degree type examination of people's backgrounds at this point in time seems to be particularly American . . ."

You're joking, right? Britain and British theatre, television, and film led the way in this thoroughly nonsensical Emperor's New Clothes approach to casting.

Loathe though I am to admit it.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean R278. Are you talking about the colourblind casting that is common in British TV etc, as in 'any person can play any role'?

I think for DL'ers, the main issue is Galdot's lack of acting chops. This will sink the movie.

Whatever her phenotoype, Cloepatra was a charismatic, brilliant and seductive woman. Gadot is incapable of portraying her in all her glory.

Yeah, that's where I think the real conversation is R280. I don't think many of the people who are correcting other's erroneous history actually care themselves about who plays Cleopatra, it's more just if you're going to make stupid ahistorical statements and then double down on them when you're shown to be wrong, don't be surprised that people will call you out. But the real question is, is Gadot a good enough actor? She may surprise us, she may be terrible, but that's a valid concern. Her ethnicity isn't.

I'm only familiar with Gadot as Wonder Woman, which of course is a far different role than what Cleopatra requires, which is an actress who has a certain charismatic quality and makes you believe that men would be enthralled with her. Liz Taylor conveyed that very well.

^Me too. It's hard to judge what sort of an actress she is based on Wonder Woman, considering the type of movie it is. I'll watch Death on the Nile for sure, will be interesting to see what she does with Linnet Ridgeway.

Theater rules don't apply to film/tv. simple as that.

Gal Gadot's Casting as Cleopatra Is a Part of a Bigger Problem

Hollywood has been white-washing ancient civilization for decades.

If she's Jewish she's not white moron. Ask the White Supremacists, and look up Semitic people. Some black people present white too; it doesn;t make them white.

DNA testing has shown that the Ashkenazi ("European") Jews and the Middle Eastern Jews (who make up the Majority in Israel and were kicked out of Muslim countries) are all related, despite the white supremacists theories otherwise.

[quote] Interestingly enough, there doesn't seem to be an official historical consensus on Cleopatra’s true ethnicity. What is known is that she was a descendant of Ptolemy I Soter, a Macedonian-Greek king. However, the ethnic origins of Cleopatra’s mother aren't as clear. Some sources contend that her mother must have been Macedonian Greek, like her father. While others cite a 2009 discovery that she may have been at least part African.

The Ptolemys were very specific about who they married and procreated with. This quote from r285's article is ridiculous.

Why are Americans such utter morons?

It was thought that Cleopatra V was her mother, but there is no true historical record of that. The Ptolemys always intermarried. When they weren't killing each other, the kings also took numerous mistresses. It would be silly to think that none of those side dalliances never produced children.

Illegitimate children were not put on the throne.

There is whitewashing going on. I'm talking about these writers referring to anyone from multiple continents as "white" regardless of their race or ethnicity.

When did Teen Vogue turn into Buzzfeed?

[quote] In re-interpreting Cleopatra’s story through the lens of women’s empowerment, the decision to cast yet another white-passing woman for the titular role fails to actually move the needle forward.

The irony is that as our country becomes more diverse, people's views of diversity become narrower. For people to view Gadot as someone who doesn't look ethnic should be a sign of progress.

[quote]Gadot is one in a long line of white and white-passing Hollywood actresses who have played Cleopatra,

[quote]Even more, examples can be found in Jim Caviezel’s portrayal of Jesus Christ, in The Passion of the Christ, and Charlton Heston’s depiction of Moses in The Ten Commandments.

Very telling that the TeenVogue writer picks two famous historical Jewish men a being victims of whitewashing, yet somehow can't bring herself to mention Gal's Jewishness, indeed, she's described as white passing with her nationality focused on, not her ethnicity. In fact the word "Jew" or "Jewish" doesn't feature once in the article.

Fareeha Molvi should deal with her micro aggressions and undertaken some unconscious bias training.

Gadot could easily pass for Southern European. She's not a Barbra Streisand-type Jew.

They should really troll the racists and get Barbra to play Cleopatra's mother, and get her to play it with her strongest Brooklyn accent.

"Oy-yoy-yoy! That Octavius! What a Momzer! And that sister of his! What a Shikker! Feh!"

If Barbra played Cleopatra's mother, half the script would be about how she's so much more beautiful and alluring than her daughter.

I don't understand this obsession in articles like the Teen Vogue one with talking about how there is uncertainty over Cleopatra's mother as though that proves their point? The thing is, we DO know who her father was, so she's absolutely at least half Macedonian Greek, and on top of that the likelihood is that her mother was too due to what we know of Ptolemy inbreeding practices. This argument that because there is uncertainty over the mother it's somehow most likely her mother was Egyptian and that therefore a different actress should've been chosen, negating what we do know about her lineage, is such a poorly constructed one, yet these media outlets are saying it with no shame. They should be embarrassed at the leaps in logic they are making.

Whitewashing has been a big problem, it's absolutely true, but Gal Gadot as Cleopatra is not Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's, you know?

Whitewashing is in effect. John Leguizamo should know after getting schooled that he's white now.

To add to what I said at R297, thinking it over, it's almost like these people who consider themselves anti-racist and woke etc, are way too comfortable with applying the racist "one drop" rule themselves.

Stoppit!!!!!!Cleopatra was mixed. She was Macedonian and something else...Who the fuck knows. Who gives a shite?

If in some alternate universe, if Gal Gadot walked into an interview at Teen Vogue, you can bet the interviewer would say, "Can you repeat that...is that how you say it...that's such a nice name now what do you want to be called how about Gale?"

[quote] This argument that because there is uncertainty over the mother it's somehow most likely her mother was Egyptian and that therefore a different actress should've been chosen,

They DESPERATELY wish Cleopatra were a black woman, and use that as an excuse.

I wonder why? Was she that amazing that it justifies everyone wanting her to be one of them?

Because they want to claim an important historical figure as their own.

[quote] In re-interpreting Cleopatra’s story through the lens of women’s empowerment, the decision to cast yet another white-passing woman for the titular role fails to actually move the needle forward.

What does this mean?

R305, I doubt they themselves know what they mean, except: "we want to gripe about something and darn it, we're going to!"

r305 I have no idea what that gobbleygook means either, but I'm going to guess that they think they can ignore actual facts and rewrite history.

As has been said, there's a segment of people who will accept nothing less than Cleopatra looked like Beyonce.

Maybe Angelina Jolie should play Cleopatra's mother and put an end to questions about Cleo's ethnicity.

Aside: can you imagine the look on Jolie's face if they offered her the part of Cleo's mother?

I think Jolie will bag another Oscar in future matriarchal roles. I actually don't think she'd be upset if she was offered the role of Cleopatra's mother, but Marvel will keep her busy the next few years.

Charlize Theron did get upset when they offered her the role of Wonder Womans's mother though.

Despite being 45, Angelina may not be ready to admit that she's old enough to play the mother of an adult child. You know how actresses are.

The role of Cora in Downton Abbey (Elizabeth McGovern's character) was originally offered to Gillian Anderson, who was then in her early 40s, and she turned it down without even reading the script because the characters had adult daughters.

Because the character (singular) had adult daughters. Sorry. I wish we had an edit function.

Will never watch any movie starring the Israeli soldier.

[quote]Charlize Theron did get upset when they offered her the role of Wonder Womans's mother though.

I never knew this! I'm sure Charlize was thinking they would offer her the title role, despite being about 15 years too old for the part.

I always hear this in Tracey Ullman as Linda Granger's voice: "Oh, I couldn't [italic]possibly[/italic] play her mother!"

R309 Jolie has been preparing to play Cleo for a decade. She said she would shave her head for the role! Angelina has a warped view of herself and her acting abilities.

She would spontaneously combust if she was offered the role of Cleo's mother

I guess Jenkins and Gadot really like working with each other.

Did Jenkins cast Gadot, or did Jenkins join after Gadot was cast?

So I guess there won't be a Wonder Woman 3?

R317 have to see how WW84 does first. But i think there will be a third movie.

If WW84 ever gets released! It was supposed to come out a year and a half ago and it's been postponed about four times. They should just release the damn thing on streaming already.

R319

It was going to be out around Spring, but COVID-19 pushed it back.

It was supposed to be out in summer '19. Then spring of this year, then summer, then October and now it's Christmas.

Yeah what’s awkward is a bunch of merchandise are out for WW84, but the movie has yet to be seen.

Here comes the Woke Brigade demanding DNA tests on actors to make sure the parts they play are DNA-concordant with the characters they play.

There is literally no audience for this film. Nobody under 50 cares about historical drama so unless Cleopatra is going to destroy Rome with her super powers then it's dead in the water.

R324 You are correct. The last Sword and Sandals epic was Troy, in 2004. Now everything is cartoon superheroes.

I would like to see Angelina playing Cleo's mother. It would work because Cleo's mother probably got married (to one of her brothers) at 13.

They should have went for an ancient black African woman in history. The audience is 100% there.

^I agree, I think that would've been a smarter move. As others have said, I'm not sure who is really that desperate for another film about Cleopatra.

[quote] The last Sword and Sandals epic was Troy, in 2004. Now everything is cartoon superheroes.

They still make plenty. The Clash of the Titans series, John Carter, Warcraft, The Hobbit Trilogy, The Great Wall, Robin Hood, Prince of Persia, Snow White and The Huntsmen, Jack the Giant Slayer, Gods of Egypt and more.

In addition they are still adapting very old properties like Tarzan, Pirates of the Caribbean, Lone Ranger, King Arthur, The Mummy, etc.

We also got not one but two Hercules movies in the last several years

Just remembered Spartacus, Immortals, and 300.

Elizabeth Taylor was the only one who could anchor such a lavish production, there is no one like her today, no equivalent, no star big enough - The only way I could see this working is if they went in a different direction, did something almost unflattering and gritty, not gritty in a boring cliché way, you know what I mean-

The last few posts have just shown me how little I pay attention to what's on at the movies. I had no idea about most of those, haha! But also, they're not really my type of movie anyway, I guess. I suppose I could see myself seeing a movie about Cleopatra if it was done well and tried to be historically accurate (though even then I'm not that interested to be honest), because that could be interesting, but I imagine it will be more of the same Hollywood type stuff.

r329 the only memorable Herc was Kevin Sorbo on that TV show

[quote] I suppose I could see myself seeing a movie about Cleopatra if it was done well and tried to be historically accurate (though even then I'm not that interested to be honest), because that could be interesting, but I imagine it will be more of the same Hollywood type stuff.

HBO's Rome came closest to an historically accurate Cleopatra. Hollywood always glams up Ancient Egypt because the reality of what it really looked like is a bit underwhelming.

Thanks R334. I've heard a few people now really recommend Rome so I should give it a go!

R328 you're right except they're all cgi shit-fests.

Is Gal going to sing on the soundtrack?

[Quote] the only memorable Herc was Kevin Sorbo on that TV show

But Xena will always be the superior show.

HBO's Rome had Cleopatra as an opium addict. Not likely. They also had the royal palace outfitted like some ancient Egyptian temple with sand floors. Also not likely.

Why did she arrive wrapped up in a carpet? Was it so no one knew she would be in Rome? Was that historically accurate?

Did they even have opium back then?