Graham Norton questions need for same-sex dancers on Strictly Come Dancing

[quote[ He's often avoided making any comment on things like gay rights, equal marriage and so on, hiding behind him working for the BBC as reason he can't. He also doesn't seem to be a particularly pleasant person, judging from various interviews with him.

Can you offer specific examples or link them? Your sweeping generalizations sound as though you cherry pick and spin the results.

You sound like a judgemental prick in all of your threads. This one is no different. Just some agenda-driven items and your obsession with gay men.

[quote] He's often avoided making any comment on things like gay rights, equal marriage and so on, hiding behind him working for the BBC as reason he can't. He also doesn't seem to be a particularly pleasant person, judging from various interviews with him.

Can you offer specific examples or link them? Your sweeping generalizations sound as though you cherry pick and spin the results.

You sound like a judgemental prick in all of your threads. This one is no different. Just some agenda-driven items and your obsession with gay men.

i agree with you r1 and r2

Norton's fine in my book, never heard a bad word about him

He's annoying, I know that much. He's the Brit version of Jimmy Fallon.

Isn't he a little late for the beard trend? I was hoping it would go away.

When H from Steps was paired with newly gay Matt Evers on Dancing On Ice, it didn't seem strange watching them dance together, but it did feel odd in how they were judged alongside other, and not just because John Barrowman was doing the judging, with his main contribution to ice skating was having coming 7th out of 10 on the first series of DOI.

It did appear that the male professional skaters had it easier when performing the lifts with their female partners, and it was easier for the male celebrities to lift their professional partners.

It'll be less of an issue with Strictly and I'm sure Nicola Adams will take the role of the man, what with being a LESBIAN BOXER and all that.

Incidentally the new series of Dancing On Ice has THREE former Strictly finalists - Colin Jackson, Denise Van Outen and Jason Donovan. No news on whether Colin will be paired up with a bloke. With all that muscle I wouldn't fancy lifting him.

R1/R2 Since you asked so nicely.

This on an article about him quitting as being a writer for the Telegraph in 2019. That's right, he only found the Telegraph objectionable last year:

[quote]Norton said he was restrained in his political opinions because of his BBC job: “Other people who work for the BBC are very political but I don’t feel comfortable doing that. I think when you work for the BBC you’re in a slightly different position. Having said that I do vote and have opinions. I’m not on marches. You wouldn’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure out who I vote for, but I don’t say who I vote for.”

And from the interview linked to in that paragraph:

[quote]“Yes, I do tend to keep my opinions to myself,” he admits. “And often I feel like a coward. I don’t do the Gary Lineker thing, sharing my opinions on Twitter. And maybe that makes me a spineless dick. As the world hurtles towards the alt-right, yes, I worry about that. But, who’d listen to me? Would retweeting Guardian articles really help?” He thinks. “What I see when I do that, rather than change, is a real wheelbarrow of shit being pushed on top of me. And it turns out I care about that more than I do about ending fascism. Yeah, I’ve weighed it up. I’m good, thanks.”

As for being unpleasant, there's this from the linked article:

[quote]I’m so unfriendly. My face is like thunder. So I’m out with the dogs and I try to give off the vibe that I’ve just received terrible news, or a member of my family has just died, so best not to talk to me.

The rest is stuff that was posted on the now closed Popbitch message boards. But this quote from him in the interview I mentioned in R8 sums up what was said:

[quote]on the radio he said he’d rather be alone for the rest of his life “than live with towels that were folded incorrectly”

I don't object to same sex dancers on Strictly but I do think ballroom and latin dances are based around traditional gender dynamics - the male aggressor etc. I can't say I'm excited at the prospect of just plugging two men into those dynamics. Will one of the males start acting all coquettish or avoidant to the other, dominant male? The easy answer to that is: No, they'll find their own dynamic. But will they? In the tango, for instance?

Good point R10.

I decided a couple of year ago the best way to appreciate this Norton show is to NOT watch it.

It's just parade of people wanting to advertise their product.

The guests have to slouch on a backless couch and display their genital region.

The report between American guests and British guests is sometimes icy,

The level of conversation is inane.

Is all this handwringing just another way of asking, who's "the man" and who's "the woman"?

[quote]The report between American guests and British guests is sometimes icy,

Do you mean rapport?

Thank you for providing the links R8, R9. He does sound unpleasant, uptight but he owns up to all of it. He seems unfriendly but he's very honest about it.

[Quote] The guests have to slouch on a backless couch and display their genital region.

When the Irish drag queen made that "oppressive" speech, Graham was outspoken in his support. He's also criticized the treatment he received as a famous son on Co. Cork.

[quote]The guests have to slouch on a backless couch

I did some work in the same complex where the show is filmed and the couch is pretty grim looking. The whole set is rather tatty in person, actually. Mind you, not as bad as BBC Breakfast where their couch actually has a hole in it.

[quote]The report between American guests and British guests is sometimes icy

Though it is always amusing to see three glamorous and beautiful Hollywood celebs and then you're typically, let's say unique, looking British standup or character actor. Especially when they're then all given equal time.

[quote]Is all this handwringing just another way of asking, who's "the man" and who's "the woman"?

Well yes, because differences between male and female biology are noticeable. Not all dances require physical strength, but those where they are lifting their partners do, and it will generally be easier for men to lift women, then women lifting women or men lifting men.

There are obviously exceptions, for example where the female celebrity is obese, like Lisa Riley.

[quote]There are obviously exceptions, for example where the female celebrity is obese, like Lisa Riley.

Which is the point I made, the fact they've had people like Riley and Susan Calman immediately invalidates his argument.

Isn't Strictly mostly against lifts?

R18, and especially when most of the times the character actor outstages the other more famous guest by actually being interesting and/or funny. This is not limited to American celebrities though.

R14 Yes I did mean 'rapport'. I've seen some US guests stare at some English guests in a state of dumbfounded incomprehension. And vice versa.

In my experience I have found a lot of comics have a stage persona that is quite opposite to what they are like in real life.

Michael McIntyre is a good example. Great when "on" but chilly and a little homophobic when not.

I like the GN show and the way guests seem to be more revealing than on American chat shows.

Probably all that booze. Drunk Marky Mark is a classic.

Remember when Mark Wahlberg sat on Graham's lap?

Was that when drunk Marky Mark challenged Michael Fassbender to a big dick competiton?

They have to display their genital regions!

That’s the most hilariously Mary! comment I’ve read on DL all week.

All the American shows have the host sitting behind a desk. The guests have to walk on and the females have to show off their legs in short dresses. They're forced to sit down and keep their legs crossed continuously so the camera can't look up their skirts.

Norton's backless couch is worse because the guests have to either hunch forwards or flop backwards displaying themselves.

R28

[quote] the females have to show off their legs in short dresses.

Because they couldn’t possibly wear longer dresses (or, God forbid, trousers).

Mark on Graham Norton talking about his prosthetic. You wouldn't see this on Jimmy Fallon.

Nor this: Dominic Cooper's penis discussion.

James McAvoy talks about shaving his pubes. Won't see this on Kimmel.

He's a gay lapdog and wants to keep his mainly straight audience happy.

Silent?

R30 Mark Wahlberg complaining about the prosthetic fitting, and making a comment how for him the big dildo was a big pain the ass. Talk about a Freudian slip.

It is always entertaining when the Americans ask if they're allowed to swear.

Despite my comments in OP, I do like his work, though it's a shame he did rather bomb at the BAFTA Film Awards. I do miss the style of his old shows, but it's pretty obvious why he can't do them any more.

[quote]I don't object to same sex dancers on Strictly but I do think ballroom and latin dances are based around traditional gender dynamics - the male aggressor etc. I can't say I'm excited at the prospect of just plugging two men into those dynamics. Will one of the males start acting all coquettish or avoidant to the other, dominant male? The easy answer to that is: No, they'll find their own dynamic. But will they? In the tango, for instance?

So true. It could never work.

That video at r37 doesn't work for me. It's fun to see. But take the move at 0:33, for instance. It's pure "man dips the lady but she turns her head away so no possibility for a kiss." There is nothing male/male about that kind of move.

I think the mere fact that he doesn't see the harm in saying anything negative about the same-sex dancing, is tone-deaf. My guess is there is a good bit of self-hating gay going on with him

Or maybe there's nuance to the situation?

The couples are just dancers, they're not in a relationship together. I see no reason why it's in any way homophobic to insist they're male/female.

Fuck off, Officer .

Isn't it helpful for younger people/kids to see this progressive statement of showing same-sex couples dancing? What is the harm in it? It's a fricking dance show, not the Olympics. So let's not get into the fairness of it.

Younger people are not this shows demo.

R44 Probably true. But what is the harm/downside? Other than some old homophobes complaining.

Norton's sofa allows the guests to flash their panties

[quote]He's a gay lapdog and wants to keep his mainly straight audience happy.

I guess my age (close to 50) is showing when I say that I don't mind most of the gay society and its norms reside mostly outside the mainstream straight world. It's clear many or most of the professional male dancers are gay but I don't have a need to see them dancing with each other in a show that's mainly for the straight audience. Maybe it's my internal homophobia speaking here, caused by the bullying I had to endure during my teens for being a girly gay boy. That said it's obviously great that there are more gay or even queer people being openly themselves in the entertainment these days. Gay and queer kids need to see positive role models and I'm glad they do now unlike back in the 80s when we only had like Boy George. He was definitely my superhero, though.

Still, Graham Norton works in the straight world and I don't care if he's not a crusader for the gay rights. People like him who are likeable but not over the top in their activism are extremely important since they are the ones many straight people don't mind watching. Gay activists whose main role is to spread the message are just as off-putting as other activists. It's idiotic to expect every gay celebrity to be one. The clips I've seen from the Graham Norton show are actually quite gay so it's not like he's somehow trying to hide anything there. If your problem is that the guests and the audience are not gay themselves then I guess it's time to find another talk show to watch.

Poor R47, forever seeking the approval of straight people rather than just finding happiness being himself.

R48, I'm perfectly happy being the person I am, and I've always been. However I don't have a deep need for gay celebrities to be gay gay gay every second they're in the spotlight.

R49 And no-one's saying they are. But what you want is gay people to be what straight people deem acceptable - not demanding rights, just there to entertain.

Thanks for your judgement r48.

Good to know we have you to tell everybody what's what.

Now back to the Barilla boycott!

When lesbian Miriam Margolyes cheerleaded for straight actors to play gay roles BETTER than gay actors (and Stanley Tucci AGREED with her), Graham did not join in with their cheerleading. The idea that he's dedicated to being a "gay lapdog" is stupid as fuck and clearly a knee jerk insult. It doesn't apply to him.

Wow. Fuck him. Self loathing asshole.

Cancel this prick. I've known lemmings with more courage.

[quote] But what you want is gay people to be what straight people deem acceptable - not demanding rights, just there to entertain.

You seem to have a very black and white view of the world. How the hell would you want Norton to behave? Bring out facts about gay life to all his guests? Tell sad stories about gay oppression in every show?

You actually sort of sound like someone who feels oppressed and expect all gay celebrities to fight for you. Are you from Eastern Europe? If you haven't noticed the UK is one of the most gay friendly nations in the world. In a poll from a few years back more than half of the people aged 18-24 said they were not completely straight.

And you sound like a dummy.

We are oppressed and sometimes early generations of gays get ahead precisely because they are idiots whose stereotypical behavior is not threatening to straights. Graham Norton is one of these untalented freaks whose success is due to his lack of talent is reassuring to straights.

"When lesbian Miriam Margolyes cheerleaded for straight actors to play gay roles BETTER than gay actors (and Stanley Tucci AGREED with her), Graham did not join in with their cheerleading. The idea that he's dedicated to being a "gay lapdog" is stupid as fuck and clearly a knee jerk insult. It doesn't apply to him."

Here is the clip at 5:08. Your criticism is fake news.

[quote] they are idiots whose stereotypical behavior is not threatening to straights

Why oh why should we be 'threatening to straights' in 2020? You sound like you live in a more or less imagined war state in your head. I'm sure there's still a war going on in homophobic countries like Russia but in most Western countries things are most certainly not that dire.

Graham Norton is a pleasant host to watch, and he most certainly is not untalented.

R55 Hey I was just basing that on what you yourself said in R47. It's incredibly hypocritical to accuse me of black and white thinking when you're acting as if things are in a binary state of 100% activist all the time or not.

No-one expects him to promote anything political on his show. That's when his talk of working for the BBC holds up. But when he says he avoids supporting things he believes in just because he doesn't want to deal with people not liking him for it - yeah, that's pretty pathetic.

And I'm British, and so therefore am deeply concerned by the rise in homophobic hate crime which has been recorded in recent years. But by all means bury your head in the sand because that's the easier route for you to get accepted by straight people.

The UK is not that gay friendly. The place is a racist shithole.

What's your experience of it, R61?

r58

Fake news? Graham was not buying their bullshit. He made that clear.

[quote] But when he says he avoids supporting things he believes in just because he doesn't want to deal with people not liking him for it - yeah, that's pretty pathetic.

He's apparently not confrontational. Not all of us want to start a fight. And yes obviously troublemakers like Boy George many times are the ones truly pushing things forward but there are only so many troublemakers we need. It's a bit silly to expect everyone be like that.

The thing with Norton is that he's so gay that just his presence serves as a reminder of gay rights.

And Norton himself isn't the joke on his show. He's often quite high handed with the audience, especially the red chair people. He's actually an example of a high status gay "character" in popular culture.

[quote]The thing with Norton is that he's so gay that just his presence serves as a reminder of gay rights.

That's the kind of stupid shit which people said about Jack on Will and Grace. It's those activists who are so despicable who actually changed things.

What do you want from Norton? Peter Tatchelling?

Norton is a decent Irish lad.

R67 Because that's the only two states gay men can be in, right? Either no involvement whatsoever, or complete obsessive involvement. No middle ground is possible whatsoever.

So what do you want from him?

Same sex dancing should be a seperate sport altogether if at all....

To have more of a spine that to not speak out on issues you agree with because you don't want to deal with people not agreeing with you.

But the article talks about declining to make comments on gay marriage. He was openly supportive on gay marriage in both the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland.

R73 It in no ways limits his comments to gay marriage, and he calls himself spineless so this isn't even controversial

[quote]“Yes, I do tend to keep my opinions to myself,” he admits. “And often I feel like a coward. I don’t do the Gary Lineker thing, sharing my opinions on Twitter. And maybe that makes me a spineless dick. As the world hurtles towards the alt-right, yes, I worry about that. But, who’d listen to me? Would retweeting Guardian articles really help?” He thinks. “What I see when I do that, rather than change, is a real wheelbarrow of shit being pushed on top of me. And it turns out I care about that more than I do about ending fascism. Yeah, I’ve weighed it up. I’m good, thanks.”

That attitude, then combined with the comments he made about same-sex dancers, I think that earns a side-eye at least.

"Side eye." Ugh.

There's nothing wrong with being an entertainer. The world already has plenty of crusaders.

[Quote] he calls himself spineless so this isn't even controversial

You don't need self deprecation explained to you, do you?

Once again with the pretending you can only be one or the other.

Saw him do ZaZa in La Cage in London many years ago. He was terrible.

R76 You apparently do.

[Quote] Once again with the pretending you can only be one or the other.

Graham hasn't been one or the other. He's spoken out in support of issues before. Does he do it all the time? No. Does he call himself an activist? No.

No one is asking him to be a trail blazer on gay issues. But why feed the homophobes with the "we don't need to see it" bullshit.

There was a BBC documentary a few years ago about gay life in the UK and it featured some young gay men who were incredibly sterotypical but they were slagging off Graham for also being a stereotype.

Graham had this to say last year during an interview with Alan Carr

[quote]Do you still encounter a loathing of camp among some “straight-acting” gay men?

[quote]Graham: I think you do in that, still, straight acting is an ideal. And that’s just part of our sexuality. We’re all prone to that. I remember seeing a BBC Three thing about young gays down in Brighton, and my name came up, and the idea of being me was just horrific to them. And it broke my heart, because they were me. I just thought: “But you are little mes, you are the fey, camp ones.”

[quote]Alan: I say to Graham, do you remember when we used to get slagged off by the snooty gays, you know: “Oh, camp – is that really how gay men should be portrayed?’ I mean, look at what’s come since, love. We’re like Vin Diesel and Sylvester Stallone, compared with that. Camp is different things to different people. Did you ever watch Dynasty? What about when the son came out as gay and had a fight? That, to me, was the stirring.

You realize he's the host of a chat show right?

Go after Ellen if you want to do some good locally.

Whoever kept going on about the backless couch will be glad to know it's been replaced with socially distanced chairs!

"Strictly Come Dancing" is a stupid name for a show.

It's a play on the movie "Strictly Ballroom" and the original TV show "Come Dancing."

He got a perfect score on Strictly.

Britain had a show : The Greatest Dancer, in which the act dances behind a wall. If 75% of the audience votes for them, the wall opens and they are scored.

R84 It was me going on about the backless couch but I still refuse to watch this puerile show with its upskirting, crossed legs, smutty penis jokes and its parade of performers making awkward banter while flogging their latest product.

The last time I watched was when feeble octogenarian Maggie Smith was forced to sit on the uncomfortable couch. She was forced to appear because it was in the film company's contract to advertise that Alan Bennet film. The conversation was very strained and she let out some odd remark about 'Lord Ben Kingsley'.

What is that creature on the left at r88?

"Sir King Bensley," you dolt.

You have to admit that the US doesn't have a show as entertaining.

Lies!

R85 R86 The name may reference the appalling queen Baz Lerman's 'Strictly Ballroom' but it's still stupid name for a TV show.

The characters in appalling queen Baz Lerman's campy 'Strictly Ballroom' were a bunch of obsessed, closed-minded suburban losers.

I enjoyed more the original version of Dancing on Ice.

[quote]the uncomfortable couch

All television furniture is uncomfortable to get people to sit upright rather than slouch

I handled the couch very well, thank you.

Joan!

R97 Meryl KNEW she had to keep those legs crossed all the time

Graham Norton's couch gives the viewers what they want.

I don't know, but I think he's got a point. You don't need same-sex partners in a Dance completion to strike a stake for equality.

Aesthetically speaking, different sex partners just looks better.

Same sex pairings in dance makes sense in certain ballet pieces or certain other dance routines.

[quote]I don't know, but I think he's got a point. You don't need same-sex partners in a Dance completion to strike a stake for equality.

But that wasn't his point. His point was it somehow makes it difficult for the judges to assess the couples evenly, but this is a moot point given the couples they've had in the past have been different anyway - from athletic to obese - and that never stopped the judges.

R100, the audience does NOT want the greased legs of two unattractive blonde transgender women.

R37, Love it! Where is that from?

R10, R38, Lol, you must be a Frau.

So last night the UK was treated to some glorious lesbian dancing thanks to Nicola Adams and Katja Jones.

Despite being the first celebrity in a same sex (not same gender) couple, Adams, a double Olympic gold medal winning boxer, is now being denounced as a transphobe because she thinks trans women should not compete against biological women but should have their own category.

This is from a Stonewall's Head of Trans Inclusion

[quote]I’m sad because Nicola Adams was almost prevented from being her true self on #StrictlyComeDancing by homophobia. But she is trying to prevent trans people from playing sports by using transphobia. I’m sad that the first same sex dancer on the show is transphobic

How dare she not want to get in the boxing ring with someone with the same body as a man.

Katja is still a Jones?

Katya is still a Jones and Karen is still a Clifton

Is it me or is Karen more butcher since she ditched her husband? She now has the same haircut as her new partner. Last season she shaved the side of her head and this year she's cut it all off.

I still miss Julian Clary.