Have any of you ever been inside The Dakota?

[quote]Billy Joel because he is Jewish?

Excusez-moi?

I grew up a few buildings away OP and have been inside many times.

Apartments are big but range from "bought in 1973 for $20K and have not been renovated since" to "early 21st century hedge fund manager/total rehab"

I'd say you'd be more likely to be rejected for being Christian than for being Jewish.

And after John Lennon I'm guessing they did not want any more celebrities with obsessive followings.

Yes.

They told me no gypsies, tramps, & thieves!

Half-breed!

That's all I ever heard.

Betty bought when they weren't so restrictive.

R2 What is your net worth YMF? Just curious.

I was Jewish and I lived there for years.

They're very gay friendly.

They turned down Madonna because she's a ho.

R8, So did I.

When Bacall wanted to install wall air conditioning back in the early 1960s, she had to go before the co-op board and practically beg.

They allowed it, but she had to keep and number each removed brick in case the next owner desired something different.

She lived there for over 50 years.

Rosie lived there for a while. I think she rented.

My son was born there.

Does it really have a spooky laundry room in the basement?

I always wonder how those rich celebs dealt with not having a washing machine. I guess they send everything out or have a maid do it.

More than fifty times.

I liked it being a plot point in the book Time and Again. I still can’t believe it’s never been made into a movie, or better yet a limited run series. Maybe they could use the sets from the Alienist to film it, but of course a few shots of the Dakota for its plot point. I’m pretty sure that’s where I first heard of it and saw a picture of it as a tween.

Why'd she cover up all her towels and vacuum cleaner?

Sure, you bet.

Oh wait sorry, you said THE Dakota.

The Dakota was also used for the outsides scenes in the horror film "Rosemary's Baby."

One of the few (or maybe only?) NYC buildings where the most desirable apartments are on the lowest floors.

And r14 made me laugh for a good minute and a half, thank you!

"Mr. Reed bought his apartment in the Dakota for $30,000 in 1970, he said. His many famous neighbors have included Lauren Bacall and John Lennon."

Rex with Truman....

I wonder if Albert Maysles, of "Grey Gardens" fame, lived there in the 1970s when it was much more affordable.

What do you want to know? I lived there for almost a year in a friends "mother-in-law" suite on the 9th floor (a studio maids room with a shared bath). Luckily no one lived full time on my elevator so it was actually quite private.

The building is actually quadrants, with an elevator in each corner. Each floor has a small vestibule landing with 2-3 apartments off of it. So there are no long halls and it makes each floor seem more private. In the middle of each of the 4 outer walls is a service elevator for luggage and deliveries. When you go in the arch, you check in at the desk on the right and then once the resident has confirmed who you are, you cross the courtyard to the elevators. In the winter they put up a little antique glass and wood temporary shelter along the outer walls of the courtyard to shelter residents on the walk to the elevators.

The millwork is amazing and the whole building has this warm smell of old wood and plaster. It reeks of history.

The soundproofing must be excellent. No one wants to listen to Yoko Ono singing.

R25, What year did you live there? Any dish on celebrity tenants?

We used to have parties in the basement. Scary basement but someone brought music, we were all sitting on the floor and it was nice. Those days were cool.

R27 Early 2000's. Not really. Bacall was on my elevator. Always with her dog, always polite. I got into her apartment once with my friend. Massively high ceilings. Either 14 or 16 feet.

I saw Yoko a time or two. You'd basically get a nod. It seems like once they see you a few times, you're part of the club.

Rex Reed passed me a few times. He's got a place in the country and seemed to spend more time there. His apartment is in the back of the building, it faces the Mayfair and 73rd street.

Was the Cassavetes film Gloria not filmed in the Dakota?

Rex Reed being interviewed in front of the Dakota by Pat Collins on GMA the morning after the shooting at 6:55.

I never knew Connie Chung and Maury Povich lived there.

R25 again. The most grand apartment (I heard) was on the 7th floor and was built for the builder, Edward Clark. It has a huge, like 60x30 living room/ballroom. The 7th floor has floor to ceiling windows. If you look at the exterior, that's the only floor that does and it's a bit more fanciful than the rest. Story is that Edward Clark wanted to try to make upper floor living fashionable. But elevators were new and very unreliable at the time.

Also, before it was a co-op, it was held in trust by the Clark family. And apparently it was some of the cheapest rent to space ratio after WWII, since the trust never seemed to raise the rents and it ran at a loss for almost 100 years. When the trust finally sold it, I think it sold for something like $4.5mm in the 60's to some real estate developer who really only wanted the lot behind the Dakota (which had been tennis courts and, later, a parking lot). It was at that point the deals were to be had, because when the building went co-op, they basically took the purchased price and divided it up by the amount of space you were purchasing. So those apartments were dirt cheap. I'd imagine the maintenance fees have more than made up for it over the years. That building probably has taken some upkeep.

Another interesting fact. For all the detail and ornamentation on the building, the back wall (that faces the Mayfair) is flat brick and unfinished looking. No design whatsoever. I'm not sure if they intended on building another half of the Dakota on that vacant lot but it never happened.

Interesting stories, R25. Thanks for sharing!

Are the fire places the only way to heat up the rooms. That seems terribly impractical and also makes the apartments smell of smoke and not in a good way.

What about sound proofing? Do you hear the steps of the people from the floor above you?

Who ownes the apartments facing the internal courtyard? I can imagine they don't get a lot if light and fresh air, esp the lower floor ones.

Maybe a nice building to look at, but not sure to live in.

I figure the Dakota was/is considered up scale and they didn't want pop artists, known for throwing big parties, sometimes accompanied with loud, disruptive behavior, moving in.

There is central heating. Residents can’t simply turn a dial to change the temperature though. They have to call down to the basement/boiler room, and the steam operators have to manipulate the correct steam valves.

A look inside Bacall's Dakota apartment . . .

Why didn't they want to have Cher in the building? I can understand Madonna, but a No for Cher?

Yoko Ono still lives there I heard. On the top floor in one of the gabled corner apartments.

I’ve worked on several projects for people who live there. Rare air. The apartments I’ve been in got incredible light filtered through old windows. Kind of a glow. Somehow I ended up at Robert DeNiro’s birthday party. Definitely a never gonna happen again, so enjoy it scenario.

I thought Yoko owned half the building. Didn't she and John Lennon keep buying units???

A friend attended a small dinner party there. His host isn't famous or super rich. Even though the party was only for a small group, the resident was required to reserve the private use of an elevator for the entire evening. Apparently, shitty requirements like this are enforced for the non-Yokos and Laurens in the building to reduce the number of looky-loos walkng around and taking pictures.

R40, Yoko has also purchased additional apartments in the building over the years, which I believe she uses as office space.

I'm surprised that was allowed, given how strict the Dakota co-op board is.

BTW, Yoko and Bacall did not get along at all. Bacall frequently complained when she felt "Mrs. Lennon" was breaking a rule/regulation.

It's not easy to get in there . . .

"The current application process is insane.

Hopefuls must submit years of financial statements and tax documents, go through a background check, and pay a fee of over $1,000. After applicants complete the rigorous application process, the co-op board can still deny them."

LOL, that is standard for most Manhattan co-ops R45

Fuckin cunts the lot of them! All assholes. They only let real legends live there.

A friend of mine lived there and I can confirm that they turned down Cher. My friend's place was right below the Lennon's and she said that they asked to buy her apartment many times. I also once visited an apartment on the first floor 72nd street side. It was very dark.

I’d love to live there. Or any of the really grand buildings built around a courtyard. Many years ago, I had an apartment in a very old building in Brooklyn Heights and I loved living in a historical place. Some people like everything new and shiny and modern. I love old things.

I don't know anyone personally who's lived there, but I can only imagine the aroma of High Point Coffee still fills the halls and elevators.

I found this Penthouse C listing from 2014 when it went for 7.2 million. This is quite different from the other apartments, as it is very modern, and is a duplex with a mezzanine. It's situated on the top floors and also it has a terrace (the buildings only one?).

Yes.

I saw The Dakota while on a trip to New York City. It looked rather forbidding, somber, dark, and kind of scary. Not sure if I would really want to live there.

I'd want a modern building with central air, washer/dryer and a fitness center.

OP, coyly stirring up trouble again with vaguely bigoted and insulting remarks about volunteers?

I've volunteered on my co-op board for a few years. My experience has been generally positive. In my opinion, the majority of co-op volunteers are decent, fair-minded, trying to protect the quality of life of building residents and trying to improve everyone's investment in the property. Just my experience, just my perspective, but boards look at whether an applicant can pay their own bills, be respectful, maintain or improve one's property values, keep the building quiet & safe, and basically be a good neighbor.

Madonna's had troubles with her neighbors and co-op board in the past. I would imagine the paparazzi and parties and disrespectful behavior would be a turn-off to board members. It would seem to me Madonna wouldn't care if her neighbors disliked the fact that she's dancing at 2;00 a.m. or that the press is mobbing the building entrance, but the co-op board would.

Why yes, yes I have, OP.

But please don’t ask.

R56, Actually, Mark, you never got beyond the front gate.

This article is a good whos-who.

Frankly, the list of tenants is underwhelming, at least from a Social Register POV (sniff). Lots of "money men" (hedge funds, etc.) Lots of "artists" and "art administrators" who either inherited their apartments outright or the funds to buy their way in. And certainly no shortage of show biz.

No building that admitted Maury Povich and Connie Chung has any business turning away others, IMHO.

Nobody gives a fuck about that Social Register horseshit anymore.

Not in the 21st century world of media and tech.

The Dakota always seem to be like a place for refugees from the Village rather than the where the blue bloods would want to descend upon. Kind of like when you’ve come into money after living in the Chelsea Hotel.

The Social Register types would live on the Upper East Side.

We've discussed this before, but those old co-op buildings aren't as attractive as they used to be. Lots of people prefer new construction with all the modern amenities instead of the "classic" old money-type buildings on 5th and Park and also Sutton Place. The luster of those addresses is not as relevant anymore.

Still plenty of people trying to get into places like 834 Fifth Avenue and 740 Park Avenue.

Not as many as in the past, r63. And lots of shady-ass foreigners now too. Younger people with money are skipping the old guard co-op buildings entirely, and buying a townhouse or moving into new buildings.

Yes, I attended many parties there. Of course, I would NEVER live on that side of the park.

Who's Lee Radziwill?

Growing up on Park, whenever anyone mentioned the Upper West Side, dearest Grand-Mere would simply nod and say, "leave it to the bagel merchants."

So true.

Isn't Columbus Circle a rather sketchy neighborhood these days?

r67 - posting from 70 years ago.

R66 , you remind me of my sister when she was on Assistance.

Who was your sister?

Many times!

North or South?

Gilda Radner lived there.

Al Maysles married into the building - his old money and fugly wife Gillian owned her place since1960. When they sold out they bought three adjoining buildings in Harlem to give their kids some sort of security.

The Dakota

What Lauren Bacall's apt looked like when she lived there.

R44, Ono and Lennon first bought space in the Dakota in the early 70s. It's possible that a streamlined or modified process exists for current owners to buy additional apartments. After all, they are already approved and there is likely no subletting with our without an addtional process.

Come on ovah, honay! I'll make ya' a nice cup of herbal tea!

Christ that dog is annoying, R77. How did it not disturb the other residents?

[quote]Al Maysles married into the building - his old money and fugly wife Gillian owned her place since1960. When they sold out they bought three adjoining buildings in Harlem to give their kids some sort of security.

Thanks R75.

That makes the 3rd time the video at r77 has been linked in this thread.

Read an article where Roberta Flak complained that they were not allowing her to repair/replace her tub. I could not live in a place like that. I would understand if they insisted it be replaced with a period tub, but that's just ridiculous.

In response to someone upthread regarding noise: Flak also stated she could hear music being practiced in the Lennon's apt. I don't think she was complaining though.

The constant rules and regulations would be too much to deal with.

What makes the basement so creepy?

R85 The bodies Rose, the bodies.

[quote]I'd want a modern building with central air, washer/dryer and a fitness center.

Yeah, they need to figure out how to get central air and washer/dryer hookups into each apartment. I know lots of other old buildings eventually incorporated those amenities, so why can’t this place?

NYC apt living is hellish. Rules and regs, neighbor noise, constant renos in the building. If one doesn't grow up this way its almost impossible to adapt.

I wouldn't complain if I were a tenant and could hear music coming from the apartments of John and Yoko or Leonard Bernstein.

Have you heard Yoko's singing, R88? Not pretty.

True art.

One of the links upthread showed floorplan of a unit for sale in 2017. The w/d was in a little closet off the kitchen and entrance hallway. No photos of it tho. I am sure every unit has w/d by now. If not theres always the kind you can operate with a stationary bike....

R88 I thought Leonard Bernstein lived in the Beresford?

Wikipedia says Bernstein lived in the Dakota. Of course, he moved around and lived in various prestigious apartment buildings.

I used Yoko's music to torture loud neighbors myself. I adore her, but that just wouldn't be tenable all of the time.

I’m Jewish & lived in Dakota for years

Didn’t Billy Joel also claim East Hampton was anti Semitic when it has one of the largest, wealthiest Jewish Centers in the United States that was built in the 1950s?

When Bacall's apartment was listed after she died, all the photos and video of the interior were careful not to show the kitchen or bathrooms, just the living areas.

[quote] NYC apt living is hellish. Rules and regs, neighbor noise, constant renos in the building. If one doesn't grow up this way its almost impossible to adapt.

Right, because almost no one ever moves here as an adult and deals just fine with apartment living.

Question: Have these apartments in these old buildings been upgraded to be soundproofed or is it just like a shitty built apartment and you can hear neighbors stomping, talking, and TV through the walls?

[Quote]almost no one ever moves here as an adult and deals just fine with apartment living.

Yes, this is correct.

r29 and others who've been inside: What did you find the most striking as far as architecture goes? What are the doorbells like?

[quote]Question: Have these apartments in these old buildings been upgraded to be soundproofed or is it just like a shitty built apartment and you can hear neighbors stomping, talking, and TV through the walls?

The Dakota was built as a luxury apartment building with all the modern amenities of the time. I hardly think wealthy people would be willing to live in a building where you can overhear neighbours' conversations. The soundproofing must be very good.

For that kind of money, I'll take a downtown loft.

I guess the building has thick walls, so there would be little noise from your neighbors left and right, but impact noises like walking, moving furniture, dropping things etc. can only be fixed by floating screed or sound insulation layers underneath the wooden boards, tiles or whatever your flooring is. Unless apartments were retrofitted with sound insulation batts, these places can become hellish noise wise.

In pictures it also looks like the windows are single pane glass windows which means there's a lot of street noise. Maybe New Yorkers are used to it, but it's not like double pane windows are just an invention of the last 5 years.

I wouldn't move into a place like this.

No way would I spend millions to have tacky window units. Madness. This place could have done a complete overhaul to add central air and modern heating. As NYC continues to suffer through hotter and hotter summers I think these apartments will regret skipping out on those investments.

After hearing Yoko scream like a cat in heat at R90, I can only imagine the building's maintenance fees are monopolized by replacing dozens of panes of glass every time she practices. Good fuck, she must've been singing from the soundtrack heard in hell.

Yeah I’m not spending millions on an apartment that can’t even install central air conditioning or retrofit the floors, windows and walls to be soundproof.

Agree r104. Also, for that kind of money I would need a state-of-the-art fitness center in the building. That's a must for anybody with money to spend these days.

[quote]I guess the building has thick walls, so there would be little noise from your neighbors left and right, but impact noises like walking, moving furniture, dropping things etc. can only be fixed by floating screed or sound insulation layers underneath the wooden boards, tiles or whatever your flooring is. Unless apartments were retrofitted with sound insulation batts, these places can become hellish noise wise.

How do you know the floors aren't concrete? That would solve that problem.

I've seen apartments in The Dakota with an asking price of $10 million. I doubt anyone would pay that if you had to listen to your neighbours walking, moving furniture and dropping things.

[quote"With its massive load bearing walls, heavy interior partitions, and double thick floors of concrete, it is one of the quietest buildings in the City." —National Register of Historic Places Inventory

[quote]partitions of "brick or fireproof blocks"

Doesn't matter how thick the floors are, you can't eliminate impact noise unless your walking surface is separated from the concrete slap with an insulation layer.

The soundproofing is only bad if you're Rosemary and you have Satanists chanting next door.

If you recall from the book and movie, the soundproofing was bad enough that Rosemary figured out that they had her baby in the next apartment after they had told her he had died in childbirth.

R31 I suspect John Lennon would not have had a long life even if he wasn't shot that day at The Dakota.

As R110 said, the National Register of Historic Places describes it as one of the quietest buildings in NYC. Maybe if you have a big party with people yelling and music blasting, then you'll bother your neighbours. Let's hear from people who have actually been in the building.

[quote]If you recall from the book and movie, the soundproofing was bad enough that Rosemary figured out that they had her baby in the next apartment after they had told her he had died in childbirth.

The soundproofing was bad because there was a door joining the two apartments, hidden behind a big dresser.

The Langham, next door is very similar and a rental. $35K/month will get you in the door. You'll get big bright 4 bedroom apartment, with a large kitchen and central air. All apartments have 4 bedrooms and its quite a bit taller than the Dakota, so a lot more apartments are above the treetops and have views.

I wonder if these ritzy people in The Dakota have ever visited Dakota?

You people don't understand the difference between airborne noise and impact noise.

I wonder how well-built this building is?

The Titanic was built using the best available steel and iron or whatever. But I'm told it would unacceptable nowadays.

* Like most pre-war buildings it is very well insulated and solidly built

* I suspect more than half the owners are Jewish (or close to half) so not an issue

* Because the UWS was shady in the 70s, the apartments were very inexpensive when the building went coop and there are still original owners there, or were when I was growing up in the 90s/00s. They were psychiatrists, professors, ad execs, writers, etc. The UWS was where you lived if you were "artsy:.

* The Dakota, the Beresford, the El Dorado and a few other buildings on CPW will always have willing buyers--the apartments are huge nf have great views and the neighborhood is family friendly

* UWS was always considered more avant garde and it got very shady in the 60s and 70s. By the 90s that had all changed but it still attracts a different kind of buyer than the UES, even if they're paying the same money. "Society" is a bizarre DL obsession that no longer really exists with anyone under 50, but if you care a lot about what other people think about your apartment, clothes, job, vacation destination, etc., then you are far more likely to live on the UES than on the UWS.

The UWS is still too "Jewy" for many people.

Former Dakotoan again. The walls are VERY thick. I think something long the lines of 3 feet or so on the first floor and 1 at the roof line. I was never able to hear any noise from the unit below. I was told that in order to avoid having a fire escape when it was built, they had to make it "fireproof," and the floors are concrete with a layer of dirt from the basement excavation sandwiched between them. The building is VERY solid. Interior walls are load bearing and I had heard it was a nightmare to replumb and rewire.

The Penthouse was designed by some famous architect. Ward something or another, from former mechanical space. I remember hearing that the flagpole in the center on the building on the CPW side goes down through his dining room or something.

Alot of these apartments have weird layouts. There's one that's split across 2 sides of the building so you have to go outside into the public area to go to bed. They broke them up when large apartments because too expensive to rent, but some people have tried to restore original floorplans. The original design had roughly 4 apartments per floor on the lower floors, with living and bedrooms facing the exterior walls and the dining rooms and kitchens facing the courtyards. The building also had a restaurant for residents on the first floor, which was later sold off during the co-op conversion and is a huge, extremely modern apartment with almost no ornamentation.

I asked my friend about Yoko not being able to purchase more apartments, and he said she owns 6 units ranging from a studio to a 5 bedroom and they don't want her to control too much of the building. The co-op is set up like a company where your sqft counts as a % of the total. I guess majority rules and they don't want her to be able to dictate what goes on in the building. He also said John Lennon had no particular reason for moving in there other than an apartment was for sale and it provided better security for his family than the loft he had previously lived in downtown.

[R17]: Robert Redford had the rights for a while, and hoped to star and direct, but couldn’t figure out how to do it. Pre CGI. There was even an article about it in the New York Times.

Did you know “Time and Again” was also made into a musical? I saw it in tryout at the Old Globe in San Diego, in June of 1996, where I sat next to a man from L.A. who’d invested in Redford’s effort.

The show had book problems, but the score, by Walter “Skip” Kennon, was wonderful. It was later done by the Manhattan Theatre Club in New York, but not with a full orchestra, only two pianos. There are many, including myself, who believe the score is one of the best never released commercially.

(Mr. Kennon is also known for his scores for “Herringbone,” and the marvelous Off Broadway production of “”The Last Starfighter.”)

“Time and Again” should have had more productions. I believe the heirs of author Jack Finney had higher hopes for the source novel, but seem to have just held on to it without much result.

R123, Datalounge's correspondent from the year 1977!!

You'd be surprised r126 how people are in private. Still.

People over 65 perhaps

But the 1977 reference was less about antisemitism and more about the fact that the UWS hasn't been home to lefty Jewish professors in many years, the people who are buying those $10M apartments are hedge fund managers of all religious backgrounds and the UES has been equally "Jewy" for many, many years.

Though I have no doubt that some dowager of your acquaintance hissed something at you about the UWS sometime in the past 10 years.

Dowagers.

They're a lot like DLers.

OP - this book was written in the 70s

r128 I hear it from much younger NYers all the time, in private. You'd be surprised.

Roberta Flack’s apartment

The Dakota is nice enough, but it just belongs to another time.

[quote]You people don't understand the difference between airborne noise and impact noise.

I don't understand why it would make a difference. Brick and concrete don't conduct sound waves. Wood and dry wall do. Anyways, as R124 has already explained, the building was very quiet. Nobody's going to spend millions on an apartment if you have to put up with noise.

I've read that Red Roof Inns are very quiet because walls, floor and ceilings are all concrete.

Yes. I viewed a studio apt that was owned by Fred Trump's late accountant that he sued as a pied-à-terre . It was spooky. As we entered The Dakota, the reception desk room looked like a cheap roadside motel check in.

We walked down the hallway and it was like entering a morgue. It was very dark with strange sconce lights. I remember them as almost being like gas lights. You couldn't tell if it was night or day.

The apartment had a dark, strange energy. I felt like someone was watching us. I looked out the window and up. Yes, someone was watching us from above.

The window looked into the courtyard that is a pale yellow brick. It seemed like an insane asylum. The top floor used to house the poor Irish servants. When their rich employers moved out of The Dakota, some of the servants were left behind in dire straights.

I read a book about the ghosts of The Dakota. They aren't happy. One lights fires and another throws a snow shovel at people. I think there might be a ghost of a little girl who haunts The Dakota.

A woman committed suicide by jumping off the roof. Her spirit is frequently seen.

In the ghost book, a man who owned an apt was approaching The Dakota. He looked up at his apt and saw a lighted crystal chandelier in his window. It was not his current lighting fixture.

A friend of mine who is psychic, told me that she avoids walking by The Dakota. She feels evil lurks there.

The Dakota has pointed roofs which is said to attract evil spirits.

I showed the photos that I had taken of the studio apt to another psychic friend. She said that she felt like evil spirits floated out through the radiator into the the apt that I had seen.

Never buy a co-op apt regardless of how famous, fabulous or haunted --- the rules are too restrictive!

^^^ Maybe more of a funeral home vibe rather than a morgue when walking down the dark, ominous hallways.

Interesting, r134.

I'd rather live in a shoe box in Mayemphuus.

Seems like.a roach infested dump that’s going to collapse at any minute.

What’s with the ratty window units stuck in random places without windows? I would want to live in within 10 blocks of Yoko or Lauren Bacalls yappy mut.

Roberta Flack did a horrible, 80s renovation, that she regretted about ten minutes after it was done. She ripped out a room to install a hot tub, dropped the ceilings to add in recessed lighting (who wants a LOWER ceiling?) - and she bought a unit at the rear. It's on the same floor as one of Yokos. I think that broad has like 3 levels.

I read an interview once where she had a party and Cyndi Lauper was nursing at the time - and she was told to go the Mummy room - like a mother's room - only literally it was a mini gallery that in the middle had a fucking mummy in it! I would kill to see that! Have read other interviews that said her apartments are rather under-stated.

Rosie O didn't live there - she lived at the Apthorp - which I actually think is more grand (equally if not more plagued though) but it does not have a park view. some apartments have a peek-a-boo view of the Hudson. It takes up an ENTIRE block from Broadway to West End, 78th to 79th. Unlike the Dakota, the building is finished all of the way around. I live a block away and it's always a SHONDA when you see the back of the Dakota. Like meeting a hot top who then has a flat, dirty, ass.

typo corrected : Fred Trump's late accountant that he used as a pied-à-terre

You get used to some noise. My apartment is around the corner from a firehouse. Those trucks go screaming past my 9th floor window day and night and I sleep right through it. The garbage trucks on Friday mornings that pick up the bottles and cans always wake me, though.

Lauren Bacall bought her (rather large) apt. in the Dakota in the early 60s for something like $28,000. I'm certainly no expert on the history of NYC real estate prices, but that seems unusually low even for that time period.

This is a great essay by the late Nora Ephron about living at the Apthorp.

In recent years, the Apthorp went bankrupt . We always heard that there were a lot break-ins.

The views aren't great for the most part. Your windows just look across the courtyard into other people's windows.

R139 I think it was Roberta Flack who said that she got a lot of flack for having her little dog go up in the elevator with her at The Dakota. Was it Lauren Bacall who kept complaining about Roberta's dog in the elevator?

Did Roberta Flack's dog excrete in the elevator? Did Roberta Flack pick it up?

R145 Roberta Flack was forced to take her dog up in the service elevator even though no other resident was forced to do it with their dog.

Well, naturally, because she’s Colored.

[quote]Brick and concrete don't conduct sound waves.

Yes they do when you hammer, bang or walk on them.

The difference between airborne noise and impact noise:

If a thick wall or concrete slab separates a room between me and you, you likely won't hear me screaming, but you do hear me banging on the wall or walking on the concrete slab.

If you are lost in an underground cave and you can't find the exit anymore, to make yourself heard, not by shouting but by banging on the walls.

Sound travels long distances in dense materials. The Sound waves of you speaking won't move a thick wall, but banging on it will.

It's building physics 101.

It depends on how thick the concrete wall or floor is, doesn't it? If they're as thin as possible, maybe you would hear something. Obviously the builders of the Dakota had it figured out because R124 said it was very quiet.

There will only be foreigners living there in about twenty years. Young Americans have no interest in living in an old dank overpriced place like this.

If Buckingham palace can avoid window units, then this expensive building can get with the times.

[quote]It depends on how thick the concrete wall or floor is, doesn't it?

No it doesn't, if you walk on a concrete slab, it doesn't matter how thick it is. I will still hear you walking if I live in the apartment underneath yours. If you bang on a 3 foot wall you will hear the banging on the other side. That's the difference between airborne noise and impact noise.

You only lessen the noise from walking if you're wearing shoes with soft soles, have a thick carpet or you put sound insulation batts between your flooring and your concrete slab.

It's not really that difficult to understand, if you can think logically.

The trailer for 666 Park Avenue. The devil lives at The Ansonia, but on the Upper East Side.

Dave Annable made it tolerable.

[quote]It's not really that difficult to understand, if you can think logically.

No, it's not logical. Concrete isn't a pliable material that conducts sound.

Why would they be varying the thickness of the walls at the Dakota from top to bottom, as described by R124, if thickness had nothing to do with dampening the sound of traffic at street level? I've also heard of prestigious apartment buildings on the Upper East Side having thick walls. If it has nothing to do with soundproofing, then what's it for?

Link to a reputable source to prove that you're right.

Look sweetie, I studied this stuff. I'm a building engineer and an architect. I specialize in building physics. How temperature, moisture and sound effects buildings.

I really tried to explain this to you in layman's terms, there's not much more I can do if you don't get it.

R150 The Dakota is an icon. Anyone can live in one of the new buildings. The Dakota's exclusivity will keep it desirable.

Wait, you're not allowed to have a washing machine in your own appartement?

[quote]How temperature, moisture and sound effects buildings.

You've studied at university and you don't know the correct word is "affects".

I get it. If a cave has a ceiling that is an inch thick and a woman walks across the surface in stilettos, you might hear something. If another cave is a mile deep and the same woman walks on the surface in stilettos, anyone in the cave will hear the sound just as loud as in the 1 inch ceiling cave, even though there is a mile of solid rock above him. It makes perfect sense.

Miners in deep mines hear everything on the surface. Added thickness doesn't provide extra sound insulation. I believe you.

[quote] Young Americans have no interest in living in an old dank overpriced place like this.

They will when they're middle aged and if they have lots of money. You're the one who says these buildings are dank and overpriced.

Young people want to live in trendier neighbourhoods like the West Village, Tribeca and SoHo.

R158 My place in Italy is centuries old. The construction is probably not much different than the Dakota. I hear zero noise from the apartment above. No sound of walking and we all have hard terra-cotta floors.

Hasn’t everyone been inside Dakota at some point now?

Thanks, R160. I'm pretty sure the builders of the Dakota had soundproofing figured out because it was built as a luxury building.

It's cheaper apartment buildings in North America with wood frames and lots of dry wall that have terrible soundproofing. Probably not a problem in Europe with older stone buildings.

You got to hand it to Yoko. She hit the jackpot 3 times.

Meeting JL

Tricking him into marriage

Inheriting his entire estate/fortune/catalog

I wonder if she had JL killed.

What is the (Sidney Sheldon) type novel about two sisters who are film actresses, and end up competing for an Oscar?

Spoilers: the blonde one had sex with their rich uncle as a teen, to get nice things. The brunette one does period dramas.

^^ sorry... thought I was in the Trashy Novels thread!

Yoko Ono was poised to be one of the great Conceptual Artist of her day. Meeting and becoming involved with John Lennon destroyed her career and it never recovered, unlike his musical career which did. She far from hit the jackpot with Lennon R163. She could have been one of the greatest living artists, instead she is a decades long lonely widow know for who she was married to, had a foray into an ill conceived recording career and a talentless child.

I'd like to live below Yoko so I could bang a broomstick on the ceiling.

R161, Not since 1980.

[quote]she is a decades long lonely widow

Hey, aren't you forgetting someone?

[quote]The Dakota is an icon. Anyone can live in one of the new buildings. The Dakota's exclusivity will keep it desirable.

The tide has already turned. Younger people with money want new construction with modern amenities. The older "icon" buildings are now sought after by foreign scumbags, for the most part.

R171 Young people with big bucks may now prefer the downtown neighborhoods but historic buildings, brownstones, townhouses, and mansions are coveted by them. Among wealthy celebrities a 150 year old West Village brownstone is quite the thing to own.

Brownstones are different, we're talking about the old co-op buildings on 5th, Park, Sutton Place etc.

Brownstones will always be in demand because they're so private and there are no co-ops.

R173 It is only because of the neighborhoods. If 740 Park were on Bethune street, young wealthy people would be dying to live there.

[quote]The older "icon" buildings are now sought after by foreign scumbags, for the most part.

I don't know about that. I'll bet plenty of foreign scumbags are buying into new buildings like 432 Park Avenue and the supertall buildings going up on Billionaire's Row on 57th Street.

In fact it is the foreign clientele that wants new.

[quote]It is only because of the neighborhoods. If 740 Park were on Bethune street, young wealthy people would be dying to live there.

No, it's that the old buildings are out-of-date and the co-op boards are a pain in the ass. You're not getting young wealthy Americans into a building that has archaic rules, no fitness center and no central air.

And yes, lots of foreign scumbags are also buying into new buildings, but they're also the few people who are still interested in the old "prestige" buildings. There have been many articles about this.

[quote]R177 There have been many articles about this.

There have been many articles about YOUR BUTT!

"There have been many articles inside YOUR BUTT!"

Fixed it for you.

I'm glad my obvious spelling mistake helped unknot your deficiency in logical thinking R158.

The reason for not allowing washing machines inside the apartments in the Dakota could be because the vibrations would be heard in the apartments below. Another reason could be that there are no floor drains in the bathroom, which would prevent flooding with defect and leaking washing machines. Looks like they haven't done much retrofitting to modern standards in the building at all. Hence why the building also doesn't seem to have double pane windows to minimize traffic noise from the busy streets below.

Again, airborne noises from apartment to apartment aren't a problem in the building because it was built with thick walls and floor separating concrete slabs in the first place. But impact noises can only be minimized with insulation batts, thick carpets and tenants wearing shoes or slippers with soft soles. If you got an asshole living above you who likes to walk around with high heels at 3am or moves furniture all the time you got a big problem.

R155

Don’t most people who live in the Dakota have a professional housekeeper?

THEY can run downstairs with the laundry... or arrange to have it picked up and dropped off by a laundry service.

R180 "But impact noises can only be minimized with insulation batts, thick carpets and tenants wearing shoes or slippers with soft soles. " Not my experience all as far as walking goes. Moving furniture perhaps but how often does that happen?

I know a local building which supposedly is similar to The Dakota.

It has amazing laundry chutes down to the basement. There's hairdresser on the ground floor and a restaurant which (I'm told) can send cooked meals upstairs using another chute.

[quote]Again, airborne noises from apartment to apartment aren't a problem in the building because it was built with thick walls and floor separating concrete slabs in the first place. But impact noises can only be minimized with insulation batts, thick carpets and tenants wearing shoes or slippers with soft soles. If you got an asshole living above you who likes to walk around with high heels at 3am or moves furniture all the time you got a big problem.

R180, you ignored R160.

Anyone stayed at a Red Roof Inn? Do you hear the people on the floor above you walking around?

How’s it holding up during Covid?

I didn't ignore R160. It's science, it's like ignoring the laws of physics if you say an uninsulated floor doesn't cause noise problems for the people below.

But whatever, this discussion is like Fauci vs Dump and it's superfluous to continue.

How many of you queens complaining incessantly about noise from another apartment actually live in an apartment? I’ve lived in NYC apartments for 30 years, none of them were built anything like the Dakota, and noise is rarely a problem. It’s a minor annoyance maybe twice a month and really distracting around three times a year.

You deal with it by going to the laundromat and getting other shit done. Both Dakota problems solved!

A laundromat? Sweet Jesus. If you've lived in NYC for thirty years and you're still going to a laundromat maybe it's time to re-think things.

[quote]How many of you queens complaining incessantly about noise from another apartment actually live in an apartment? I’ve lived in NYC apartments for 30 years, none of them were built anything like the Dakota, and noise is rarely a problem.

There you go, R186. I win.

I'm ready for "Have any of you ever been inside 1040 Fifth?"

R190, Yes, once.

No, no, r184, he’s right.

When I’m down on the subway platform I hear the clip-clop of ladies shoes on the street level all the time.

[quote] Like meeting a hot top who then has a flat, dirty, ass.

If he’s a top, who gives a shit about his ass?

Does the Dakota have views of the Ramble? Or at least easily within walking distance?

If so, then I may consider it.

R153 It's not The Ansonia (standing in as "The Drake" at 666 Park Ave.) that is the Devil. It's The Ansonia's management that is the Devil.

I didn't like any of the 4 lead actors:

Dave Annable (Henry) - --- annoying lisp

Rachael Taylor (Henry's blonde wife) ---- very bland

Robert Buckley (friend, Brian w/ glasses) ---- boring and looked too much like Dave Annable wearing fake glasses.

Mercedes Mason (Brian's wife, Louise) ---- irritating

The only good actors, who made the show worth watching, were Vanessa Williams, Terry O'Quinn, Samantha Logan (the girl w/ the grandmother who lived at 666), and the smaller roles played by the actors who were on " Homicide: Life on the Streets."

Hurricane Sandy destroyed or damaged most of the Brooklyn sets. ABC didn't want to spend any more money on the series, so it ended with a fizzle.

No love for us?

[Quote]and noise is rarely a problem

Ridiculous. Neighbor noise is the single greatest complaint re NYC apts. I

London Terrace in Chelsea where 300 sq ft apts are going for 1M plus is a pre war building with terrible sound proofing. One can hear walking upstairs, music from both sides, etc. Bloody nightmare.

A good friend has lived in London Terrace for 20 years and I’ve been over countless times. Never heard any loudly distracting neighbor noise when I’ve been there and he’s never complained about it. I think most people who choose apartments and city life don’t mind, or really even notice, a small amount of noise; if you are distracted by anything other than library like silence apartment living isn’t really for you.

1. There aren't that many "young people" with the means to buy into buildings like the Dakota

2. The actors and musicians DLers are familiar with usually do prefer to live downtown or in Brooklyn because artsier/trendier. This is not new.

3. The young(ish) hedge fund managers and the like like the UES and UWS because that's where most of the private schools are, and if they're raising families they (a) want really big apartments and (b) want to be near said schools, and Central Park, where said children can play.

4. Foreigners, Russians and Chinese in particular, buy condos because there is no co-op board that wants to look into their ill-begotten wealth, and because condos don't care if you only live there for one week a year. Co-ops do.

[quote]The young(ish) hedge fund managers and the like like the UES and UWS because that's where most of the private schools are, and if they're raising families they (a) want really big apartments and (b) want to be near said schools, and Central Park, where said children can play.

But the classic co-ops aren't as appealing to that crowd as they were in the past.

[quote] Foreigners, Russians and Chinese in particular, buy condos because there is no co-op board that wants to look into their ill-begotten wealth, and because condos don't care if you only live there for one week a year. Co-ops do.

But some of them are getting past the co-op boards these days. Things have changed.

[quote]The actors and musicians DLers are familiar with

What a condescending statement. You really are an insufferable snob.

I did hear of one Saudi prince getting into one of the prestigious pre war buildings. He would often have parties and there were pretty women constantly coming to the apartment.

The co-op board was determined not to repeat that mistake.

I appreciate your posts, YourMillennialFriend.

The list upthread that listed who lives in the Dakota listed a married couple going thru a divorce. They are selling their apartment for $39 million.

The linked photos definitely show that it has been updated/tricked out.

Cosmetic upgrade isn't soundproofing.

[quote] London Terrace in Chelsea where 300 sq ft apts are going for 1M plus

Please tell me this is a typo and you meant to type 3,000 sq. ft.

[quote] The UWS is still too "Jewy" for many people.

Thank goodness for that.

Most of the floor plans I've seen online for the Dakota show very unusual layouts of rooms. This might be due to the division or larger apartments into smaller ones, or rooms created from within larger rooms. Really, the only thing that I like about the building are the high ceilings.

Couldn't I please have some interesting comments about things such as doorbells or dumbwaiters? Thank you kindly.

Thank you R202. That's very kind.

[quote]Cosmetic upgrade isn't soundproofing.

You do realise that the people upthread who have actually been in the Dakota said it is very quiet.

R203 That apartment #82-84 is owned by DeNiro's partner in Tribeca Films, Jane Rosenthal, and her ex-husband Craig Hatkoff. They have been trying to sell it for a few years. It started off with a list price of $49 million. It's now down to $25 million.

"You know we've got rats in the cellar?"

They do off and on......

Like nearly every other building along Central Park West staff of the Dakota wage a constant battle to keep rats out. Most of times building wins, but others....

Besides being across street from Central Park there is the Eighth Avenue subway that runs under CPW.

A few random comments.

Many apartments that have been recently renovated do have laundry rooms or at least washer/dryer. Late Lauren Bacall's unit was one, and there are others.

Then as now yes, there is a laundry room on premises, but servants are the ones going down there, not residents. Like other residents of Manhattan with certain household incomes much is sent out anyway; bed/table linens, shirts, etc.

Sound proofing....

Like nearly all prewar apartment buildings built for a certain income bracket have masonry walls that are three bricks thick. Add to this inner walls of lath and plaster and you have makings of mausoleum silence which is a hallmark of these buildings.

Plain brick wall on back of the Dakota (facing Mayfair Towers built in 1964 on land that once was rose garden, tennis courts and parking lot for Dakota apartments), is common for nearly all NYC buildings.

It is only the front and or other facades that will be seen that are normally richly ornamented. Walls facing lot lines were normally left plain brick for a good reason; someone could come along and develop said lot.... This or back in day advertising was painted onto these plain canvases. Sometimes when an adjacent building is being demolished it reveals long covered such advertising.

Prewar and post war building construction differences...

How Dakota apartments are heated: see 17:47 onward...

Did you know when other buildings began going up around Dakota apartments that building supplied steam for heating/hot water. Steam left the boilers at Dakota and traveled via (now long since sealed but still there) tunnels.

Can you hear YoKo screeching from down the hall?

That place looks as if it smells of must, R213.

R207

Many prewar buildings have apartments with odd layouts, this is not unique to Dakota apartments.

When many of these buildings went up in late 1800's or early 1900's economic times were good; well at least for the wealthy. Several economic recessions, then a few depressions (including the Great Depression) meant changes even at the higher end of things.

Many of these grand buildings were designed and built with just one, two, three or maybe four apartments per floor. That just wasn't sustainable for economic reasons, so units got chopped up. Note many of these changes happened while buildings were still rentals and predate co-op conversions.

Remember purpose of introducing "Paris Flats" type living to New York City (and America for that matter) was to coax the wealthy out of their private mansions and townhouses. Thus these buildings were designed and advertised as "mansions in the sky" if you will. Think of wondering around the palaces and grand hôtel particuliers of Europe.

In best of buildings floor plans followed European traditions; things were broken up into public, private and servants spaces. There were rooms for entertaining, those for the family's private use, and then something for servants.

For those interested in such things New York Public Library has online digitized collection of various brochures and pamphlets of many prewar NYC apartment buildings. These documents show original floor plans/layouts of grand Upper East and West side buildings that long have been altered.

When money began moving back into city by 1990's people began buying up adjoining apartments to restore original floor plans. This has happened at the Dakota and many other such grand buildings. Easy way to tell where an apartment was split is to look for a closet that is out of place and or you can certainly hear what is going on on other side.

When apartments were split most common place was a hallway. You just close it off and create closets on both sides. We see this in film "Rosemary's Baby" where the witches Minnie Castevet & Roman Castevet have their apartment on other side of Guy and Rosemary Woodhouse's where a closet serves as means of getting between units.

More:

The rooms are probably very dark as they only have small windows. Those high glossy pictures are very misleading, they use artificial lighting to make it look like the rooms are bright and sunny.

Also since the surrounding building are higher or equally high to the Dakota, you only have a view if your windows facing Central Park.

R221

My dear that is true of nearly every single building along CPW, Fifth Avenue, Park Avenue, etc.... If building largely fronts an avenue then units facing same will have views of "something". Those on sides and perhaps rear are another matter.

Even with taller buildings along CPW such as the Beresford, views from upper floors or towers facing west likely may not stretch very far thanks to things on Columbus, Amsterdam, Broadway....

One of reasons people prefer buying into those towers or or adjacent to "Billionarie's Row" or in Lincoln Square area is that zoning for midtown west allows higher buildings, thus you get better views. Well if you buy on a high enough floor....

Because of the Museum of Natural History, the apartments on the south side of the Beresford have amazing views south over the park.

This Beresford apartment has some of the best views I've seen, and it doesn't have a single window on Central Park.

Wow, the apartment in r223's post is almost $9 million and there's no formal dining room? It also looks like one of the bedrooms is missing a closet and all bathrooms are inside bedrooms. There's a staff room, but no restroom for the staff to use.

One thing like about old construction is windows that open. If anyone has noticed all these new buildings either are like all glass office buildings, or even where there are windows they barely open.

This is due to interference by new city zoning laws designed to make things "green" and enhance energy efficiency by having buildings tight as possible. I like fresh air! Don't want to breathe HVAC recirculated air at home same as have at work.

R224

We had this discussion before a few times on DL, many homes and apartments are ditching formal dining rooms. Space instead becomes a media or some other room deemed more useful.

As it relates to apartment in question maybe it was chopped up from another unit thus lost a few rooms from original floor plan.

R225 there was a new NY building that was marketing its “passive ventilation technology”. This is a fancy way of saying the windows open. I can’t remember which.

[quote] a new NY building that was marketing its “passive ventilation technology”.

Does this mean you'll get the Covid?

The link R213 shared mentions a "renovated gym" in The Dakota, for those asking if it has a fitness centre. Granted, everything's relative...is this renovated gym merely the same basement room from the 70s with a fresh coat of paint, and Bacall's stationery bike finally removed? Or perhaps Yoko and Connie Chung got some new yoga mats and called it a day? (BTW, picturing Yoko and Connie doing yoga together in the basement of The Dakota would be a great reality show.)

I thought I’d seen a photo of the Dakota’s gym, but I guess not. Apparently they spent millions, and it’s styled appropriately.

“Filled with state-of-the-art machines for weight lifting, running, rowing and Pilates, the fitness center’s red-brick walls are decorated with accents of wood. Large mirrors make the two-room space, which is tucked into a corner of the iconic’s co-op’s unfinished basement, seem much larger than it is.”

“It’s been impressive to everyone who’s been in there. I don’t think they expect it to be such a nice, modern space with a cool aesthetic,” he said. “[The renovation] really kind of kept with the Dakota vibe, which I think helps a lot.”

Sure R225, cross ventilation by opening windows is less energy efficient than switching the A/C on.

Idiot!

No wonder the US is one of the biggest CO2 guzzlers.

Wealthy people of a certain class do not do gyms with others. They have private trainers.

r231 do you know how fucking hot it gets in NYC in the summer? Opening the windows doesn't do jack shit.

[quote]Wealthy people of a certain class do not do gyms with others. They have private trainers.

Yet another DLer who's posting from god only knows what decade. Wealthy people "of a certain class" go to the gyms in their buildings and also public gyms. The days of the old money WASPs who don't associate with the hoi polloi are over.

R234 You are so wrong about that.

r235 no I am not. Go to a Soulcycle class sometime.

Truth be told, the layouts for many of the UWS buildings are a bit Frankenstein in that they've been cut up, sliced and diced, so many ways, the original floorpan is unrecognizable. Most of the units were half-floor in many of these grand dames like the Dakota, The Apthorp, the Dorilton, Sam Remo (which is so over-rated). UWS was more "new money" so people came and went, downsized, etc.

Though the exterior of many UWS buildings is more flashy than the more subdued UES, the UES (especially on 5th in the right stretches, and Park Ave in the right stretches, still has many buildings where only a few apartments occupy each floor. Their co-ops are generally more strict. I think the Dakota got more strict probably from all the chopping and subdividing, who knows. But generally, you don't see the frequency of the funky layouts in the very famous UES buildings like 740 Park Ave, 907 Fifth Ave, etc.

PS someone should do a new thread on Huguette Clark and her 3 massive apartments formerly at 907 fifth ave. Two take up the 8th floor and one takes up half of the 12th floor. I was banned from DL before for being too snarky (which I thought was impossible on DL!) and I'm not giving them another 2.99 a month lol.

[quote] do you know how fucking hot it gets in NYC in the summer? Opening the windows doesn't do jack shit.

You open the windows in the evening to cross ventilate. If you can't open the windows at all you need have the A/C on ALL THE TIME!

It still gets hot in the evening.

[quote]Most of the units were half-floor in many of these grand dames like the Dakota, The Apthorp, the Dorilton, Sam Remo

r237, absolutely none of those buildings were comprised of half-floor apartments.

This pissing contest over sound insulation is too funny. Like this buildings architect and engineer didnt exist or NYC building code for that matter. Interesting thread, although I don't like being too far north of Union Sq. I LOVE this building. Would be great to see the original floorplans completely restored. (In my dreams I know) but the building is going to have an inevitable change post covid.

R237 - most of the original apartment layouts in the UWS buildings you mentioned were pretty tortured as well; big, (though not half floor) but still pretty quirky to downright clumsy. The better buildings on Fifth and Park, especially those designed by Rosario Candela were prized then and now for their gracious floor plans. Many of the others were built by developers looking to maximize their return, as ever, so things were shoehorned in.

The Dakota sounds completely charming, now please could someone talk about what the Brahms is like?

I loved what you did with your place, Ro.

Brahms? The evil doll from the movie "The Boy" (2016)? What does that have to do with anything?

[quote]This pissing contest over sound insulation is too funny.

It isn't funny when you live underneath a sociopath who deliberately walks around in wooden clogs all day and esp at 3am. The reason the Dakota has a strict admission board is probably why they don't want inconsiderate assholes in the building, because there was never any upgrade to eliminate impact noises from one floor to the one beneath it. The same reason why washing machines and the gym are in a dingy and dark basement below street level.

[quote]R245 Brahms? The evil doll from the movie "The Boy" (2016)? What does that have to do with anything?

I imagine that was an autocorrect for Bram (for Bramford)

Oh ok. That makes more sense.

I guarantee a building made of cement with 3 foot thick walls and floors you cannot hear your neighbor. The Ansonia was prized for having completely soundproof partitions when it was originally built.

Has anyone stopped to consider perhaps the co-op board declined both Madonna and Cher because they don't want another John Lennon assassination situation on their hands? Yes, his death made the Dakota famous. But they wouldn't want the infamy these days if history repeated itself. Yoko can stay because she's still the "grieving widow." In fact, let's let her buy several apartments! No one cares enough to kill Connie Chung or Maury.

I love the look of the San Remo and see it from my window. A window washer told me that the views of Central Park are beautiful from the San Remo but the apts themselves are pretty meh.

In regard to The Dakota, I don't get the appeal of a courtyard view if the view from your windows looks directly at pale yellow brick walls. It's like being an an insane asylum. The Apthorp has the same problem.

It is entirely different in London or Savannah, when your view out your windows is a lovely courtyard garden or garden square.

This isn't the book or article that I read about the ghosts of The Dakota but it's interesting. It sounds like John Lennon saw the same UFO that 2 of my neighbors saw land in Central Park.

R249, you still don't understand the difference between airborne noise and impact noise. Also concrete slabs are never 3 foot thick, walls yes, because at the time the Dakota was built they didn't have the technics to build a 7 story building with thinner walls as they do now.

I've done sound insulation improvements in older buildings a couple of times. Airborne noises are hardly never a problem in them because they have thick walls separating units, impact noises from people walking upstairs very often are a problem.

Really, the difference between airborne and impact noise shouldn't be too difficult to understand, even if you haven't studied the subject as I have.

The library in that Beresford apt at r223 is actually the dining room. Situated between the kitchen and living room. It all depends on lifestyle and what you want. Personally, I wouldn't want a library off the kitchen. I'd probably take down the wall and make a bigger kitchen.

R232

You don't know what the eff you're talking about.

Nearly all new buildings along "Billionaire's Row" and or in that area have private athletic clubs/gyms and spas. Who the fuck do you think is plonking down $8k-$10k (USD) per square foot to live in these buildings? It certainly isn't the poor who can't get a foot past front lobby doors.

If one lives in these buildings then by nature one is part of a certain set. The only "poor" persons in Dakota and other white glove co-ops are those who bought ages ago when prices were low, and now find themselves house poor. They have *some* wealth, but no where near what it would take to buy today. This and those who were renters and thanks to NY rent control laws didn't buy when they could, but remain in building.

Almost.

R255 The gyms in those building get reserved.

R237

Wrong! Totally wrong!

Clearly shown in R218 and R219 many prewar (WWI) buildings clearly had two or more apartments per floor.

The Langham, The Dorilton, The Ansonia (four per floor), The Apthorp (2-4)...

The Chatsworth went one better:

"For families still ambivalent about apartment living, the Chatsworth offered a semi-freestanding mansion, called the "Annex," that was attached to the main building on just the first floor. Each floor of the Annex was its own 11-room apartment."

The Belnord is huge with perhaps four apartments per floor.

Mind you layouts for these buildings often and did vary by floor. Some floors having more apartments than others, then you had fact like the Dakota some floors were designed for servants and other uses not strictly just for residents.

[quote]Simply put, walking down a painted, dense (high psf weight) concrete hallway (floor, ceiling, walls) in capped boots will be very noisy, but the person in the next room may not hear you very well if there are no cracks or openings in the wall. Walk down a lightweight, unpainted, porous concrete hallway in capped boots, and you will not hear yourself making much noise, but someone in the next room will hear you walking by.

It seems like the actual design of a building plays as much a part in the transmission of sound as the materials that are used. That got me thinking about the constuction of the Supermax Prison in Colorado. That place is supposed to be otherwordly quiet, and each cell is entirely poured from concrete even the furniture. The walls between the cells are at least 2 feet thick concrete so inmates cant tap to communicate with each other.

A word about floor plans....

There is a world of difference between early prewar (WW!) buildings that went up at time Dakota or shortly afterwards, and those that came along in say from 1910 until Great Depression put a halt to things.

Early developers and architects didn't understand or know how to design great apartment buildings, especially in terms of luring the wealthy out of their townhouses and mansions. Later on Rosario Candela, Emery Roth, and others not only got it, but nailed things right. They understood how to lay out grand apartments like townhouses or mansions in the sky. This is why apartments in such buildings seem to work far better today than units in say the Dakota

Here is original floor plan of 7th floor of Dakota apartments.

You can see layout made extensive use of hallways and corridors in each apartment. This is common to many multi-family buildings that went up from 1870's through late 1890's. Units in these buildings look like hotels of same period, many of which were first residential, then got busted down line to budget tourist and finally SRO).

Instead of a more natural series of rooms enfilade, you have at Dakota and other such buildings hallways that mean one has to exit one room, go down a corridor to reach another.

R251

I'm sorry? Courtyard at the Apthorp has perfectly wonderful views of interior garden including plantings.

Ditto for Astor Court apartments.

R262 Oh, yeah. The views outside this $25 million Apthorp apartment are so lovely. People just love looking out onto brick walls and neighbor's windows.

That being said many of these courtyard buildings in Harlem, UWS, and other parts of city went through rough times just as city did in 1960's through 1980's. It is only recently that many under new rental management, turned into co-ops, and or otherwise money began going into the place that interior courtyards were brought back to former glory.

In any event believe you are missing entire point of interior courts or courtyards.

Before modern HVAC systems (especially ventilation such as electric fans and of course air conditioning), purpose of interior courts was to bring light and air into areas that faced center of building. As it relates to this conversation if one were lucky enough to have a full floor or even partial depending upon layout cross ventilation was possible thanks to interior courts.

Of course modern HVAC and electrical lighting have largely replaced need for interior courts, that is why developers don't put up such buildings any longer. While they are beautiful, tranquil and private, modern developers consider all that interior empty space a waste, and loss of potential revenue in terms of square footage.

R263 Get a load of these breathtaking views from the windows of an Astor Court apartment.

R264

You're either an idiot or blind, maybe a bit of both.

Views out of interior courtyard facing windows are just that, *NOT* a brick wall but of an open space with windows of other units across. If you went out those windows you'd hit ground below, not a wall, and certainly couldn't reach apartments across way.

My previous statements stand; thanks to that courtyard interior facing apartments have windows that emit light and air. Or would you prefer a solid wall?

Or would you rather prefer a lovely air shaft view?

R267 You are the idiotic. Everyone can look at the photos from most of the apts listed for sale or rent and know that the courtyard garden in not visible through those windows unless you open the window, stick your head outside, and look down.

R267 Moron. You still see brick walls. They aren't up against the window and they may be100 ft across the courtyard, but you are still seeing brick walls or neighbors' windows and not a garden oasis. Good God. Are you a real estate broker?

If you were on a side street you would see your neighbor's windows too. So what is your point? Rooms facing a landscaped courtyard have added protection from city noise. It can be pleasant. The Park Vendome.

R261 I think the primary reason for the long hallways in the apartments was for servant travel during entertaining.

R271 Give it up. Not every one who looks out their windows sees their neighbors windows. Some people have views of landscape, waterscape, et.

And it's Parc Vendome not Park Vendome. I've seen 2 apartments there. Neither had views of the courtyard.

The best view of the courtyard was seen through a giant glass window of a restaurant on W. 57th St. It's no longer there.

It's Parc Vendoom

Recall reading in some Paris, France blog about a resident in one of those grand Haussmann apartment buildings who had issues with hearing footsteps, heels and other noises from flat above.

Madame wrote a very nice letter (on monogrammed stationary no doubt) asking if perhaps her upstairs neighbor would consider carpeting or putting down some rugs. Week or so later response came from said upstairs neighbor via Madame's lawyers.

Lawyers stated Madame recently had all the parquet floors in her apartment redone at great expense and discomfort. She was *not* therefore going to lay down carpeting or any such thing. If Madame Downstairs had issues with normal noise she should perhaps consider making other arrangements.

Since you girls keep going on about the Ansonia Hotel.....

Yet more....

Ansonia Hotel was in many ways like similar prewar buildings in NYC (especially in Manhattan) during late 1970's into and through 1980's. A wave of co-op and condo conversions began which owners of properties saw as the only way to make these once grand buildings once again glorious.

Like Ansonia many of the grand UWS buildings were built as residential hotels, or became so due to various economic forces. This and or over years places were chopped up into apartments that fell under rent regulation.

Because city/state set rents and other laws affecting these buildings many simply did not bring in enough revenue beyond keeping lights on and other functions (often barely) going. There wasn't much in terms of major capital improvements, and as such places looked like who did it and ran.

By converting buildings into co-ops or condos buildings could start to get rid of rent regulated tenants. This and now could raise funds for much needed improvements, maintenance and so forth.

Another thing, for those old queens going on about sound proofing in these old buildings here is a quote from link in R222

"DEBORAH on SUNDAY, DECEMBER 14, 2008 10:01 PM I lived in this beautiful; building in the early 80's. I woke nearly every morning to the sounds of operatic scales being practiced. I lived beside many film stars such Roy Scheider,Richard Dreyfus,Lee Grant and opera great Placido Domingo....."

Obviously the Ansonia at least isn't as sound proof as some imagine.

Don't know if I'd pay $16M to live in this Ansonia apartment....

Isn't it true that no two Dakota apartments are alike?

R266, et al., why don’t you use articles? Do you think it makes you sound more high class or intellectual?

Hint: it doesn’t. It makes you come off as an idiot.

I've been to the Sherry Netherland, which is a million times classier.

Years ago, I was in Bernstein’s apartment at the Dakota. On a low floor, but vast and gorgeous, with treetop views over the park.

R280

Probably no two apartments in the Dakota are alike now, nor have been in many years thanks to all the chopping up and so forth.

The Ansonia is fab. Not fancy in its upkeep inside, but a glorious building in the perfect location. (The 72nd Street station is a block away, and is an express stop.)

My friend used to live there.

R281. You must be the one posting ARTICLES from 2005 instead of the current listing of apartments for sale at The Dakota, The Apthorp, and the Ansonia.

Despite what one of the old articles says, The Ansonia is a condo NOT a co-op.

Are you the person who keeps harping on how sound travels?

R280 and R284 the building was originally designed so that no two apartments were the same.

R17, I love "Time and Again". I first read the story as a kid in one of my mother's Reader's Digest condensed books. Then years later I found the original version, and re-read it probably once a year or so. Love the idea of the Dakota. Would love to visit NYC and see it some day.

For the reading pleasure of DL inhabitants.

R299 - that blog is fascinating; the guy is an excellent writer.

R290

Have spent hours on Daytonian in Manhattan just reading through archived posts. It is fascinating not just learning about history of buildings in Manhattan, NYC, but how much we've lost as well.

New York City has some of the oldest housing/building stock in the nation. It's fascinating to learn buildings in areas of lower Manhattan (below mid-town) that have been around since 1800's or even a bit earlier are still standing and in use.

I had forgotten the Clark connection. The family created the Clark Art Institute in Williamstown, MA.

John Lennon would have been 80 last week (9 October).

R293, Just think of all the nookie he missed.

R293, I swear I’m not being snarky, just thought you might enjoy this thread if you didn’t already know about it.

Interesting stuff there.

I'm not a New Yorker but I always thought if I had the money I'd prefer a co-op with a water view as opposed to a park view. I am really drawn to water.

What are some fancy buildings with water views?

R296, the NYT article from 1997 titled "Big, Beautiful Numbers: 820, 834, 960" mentions 1 Beekman Place and 1 Sutton Place South.

In about a year or so One Manhattan Square not only will have killer views, but largest garden (private) in NYC.

One Manhattan Square - multi-million dollar condos for the one percent with public housing projects right around the corner.

Only in New York, kids.

R298 that buildings facade with that lighting makes it look like a large grater.

R298, I wouldn't live in a building that ostentatiously tall after 9/11.

I would be paranoid about living that high up, too. If there's a fire you're FUCKED.

I'd prefer a lovely townhouse over a high-rise.

[post redacted because independent.co.uk thinks that links to their ridiculous rag are a bad thing. Somebody might want to tell them how the internet works. Or not. We don't really care. They do suck though. Our advice is that you should not click on the link and whatever you do, don't read their truly terrible articles.]

^Connie was on CNN from the Dakota yesterday.