Newsom signs law allowing transgender inmates to be placed in prison by their gender identity

Now the raping of women by persons with male genitals who identify as female will begin.

This is good for the ones with new vaginas, because they won’t have to worry about regularly using those twat inflaters. The ones with old or new penises will rape the female inmates.

He needs to google Barbie Kardashian to see how that’s working out in Ireland.

[quote] Last year, while returning to her care accommodation after a court appearance, Barbie grabbed the social care worker who was driving the car from behind, digging her nails into the worker’s eyeballs and tearing the eyelids. Barbie tore hair from the social worker’s head, wrapped her legs around her victim’s head and chest, refusing to let go and biting her on the hand. During the chilling incident, Barbie repeatedly said: “I am going to kill you.”

The social care worker somehow managed to stop the car on the road and gardaí were called. Officers later found a clump of the woman’s hair in Barbie’s pocket.

He’s so California. I love that he’s banning gasoline cars in the future but meanwhile California is fracking HEAVEN.

lol.

Cool!

Finally!! Good guy Newsom 👏👏

He’s drinking again.

Hey, OP/R8, don't you have a Trump rally to attend?

Just another day in the disintegration of America.

Progress at any cost!

R1, those will be rapes of justice!

If one trans murderer means all trans are murderers, I guess the Fatty on the Lam fucked it up for all of us gays, too?

OP has been leaving pro-Trump comments all over DL.

F&F and move on.

A great victory for Liberal "feminism". He and "Crazy-eyes Barrett" will Make America Great (for women) Again.

I don't think I've ever read an article about an institution not wanting to release a young woman because said young woman will go out and rape, R3.

(I know it is a trans. it is just a weird read.)

Any FTM trans people who feel they're man enough to belong in a men's prison will sorely learn their place in that hierarchy much sooner than later. However crude, they'll be nothing more than a vagina for the inmates who want real vagina.

Won't this enable any garden-variety "assigned male at birth" criminal to "identify" as female during their trial and then get to go to a female prison?

What R18 said. If I were going to prison, I sure as hell would chose an all women one. Much safer.

Jesus H. Christ.

One of the Cheshire Murderers is now a "transwoman."

The safety of women aside, isn't the timing of this just pure whack in terms of the election?7

Linked is a story about a British sex offender, also transgender, who is not being kept in a men's prison. Despite having served their sentence they are considered such a threat to women they being kept indeterminately on a public protection order.

It's worth remembering that "deadnaming" means the media will often not report the original name the trans person was convicted under.

When The Guardian ran the story about Marie Dean being denied beauty products they didn't mention anything about the crimes and included this from Dean's friends.

[quote]We specifically request that Marie Dean has her identity as a woman immediately returned to her and that it is respected by all staff, to be given back her clothes and her makeup to allow her to maintain her dignity and for her to be moved into the female estate as quickly as possible. Leaving her in the male estate will subject her to yet more abuse, distress and transphobic behaviour. The truth is it appears that the Ministry of Justice are unwilling to give up judging for themselves what gender a person is regardless as to how long the person has lived in their chosen gender.

The Ministry of Justice had to balance Dean's needs with the likelihood that they would return to their previous behaviour, or masturbating into female prisoners underwear and there being a strong likelihood of raping a female prisoner. When Dean was arrested they were wearing a balaclava made of underwear of the teenage girls he'd stolen after breaking into their houses, and seriously injured the police when resisting arrest.

The former actor Ross Kemp filmed a documentry series in the notorious Belmarsh prison that was shown earlier this year. One of the prisoners interviewed was trans woman Claire Darbyshire who seemed a very lost soul and was convicted of being involved in a suicide pact with her seriously ill father.

The tv show covered her as she planned for her released and there were issues about her not being allowed into a women's refuge which did seem unfair.

But what the tv show didn't explain (The Guardian also ignored it when they reported the original trial) was that before the attempted suicide she had been convicted of another offence.

[quote]It can now be reported Darbyshire was previously slapped with a five-year restraining order after breaking into the home of Lisa Forde, a jewellery shop owned for whom she worked for as a volunteer. While inside, she 'soiled' a pair of Ms Forde's knickers as well as trying on other items of clothing.

Omg r3....Barbie Kardashian is horrifying—right out of a horror movie!

Her makeup makes me think she should be a villain in a Batman movie

Not only is this an insanely horrible decision by the loony California extreme left but the timing as said above is horrible. The rights from moderate to extreme love this stuff.

I wonder how many vulnerable women will get raped before this law is amended.

[quote] Her makeup makes me think she should be a villain in a Batman movie

Her? That’s a dude, dude.

Hope Newsom and California enjoy the inevitable lawsuits.

Is Newsom just the Pope of California now?

[quote]Any FTM trans people who feel they're man enough to belong in a men's prison will sorely learn their place

Literally.

I assume they won't be forcing transmen into male prisons. So, when it comes to transmen, sex is an actual "thing," but when it comes to transwomen, it no longer has any relevance whatsoever. Got it.

As far as the inevitable rapes of female prisoners, it's a question of when, not if. And I and many other sane liberals will hold Gavin Newsom personally responsible for this utter cruelty. It is so completely unnecessary; simply build (or section off) a third space. Not rocket science.

And yeah... GREAT fucking timing.

FTM aren’t the ones asking for this. They are at least smart enough to know what would happen to a 5’4 man with a vagina in a men’s prison.

Also ACLU has been dead silent on this as well as one of their biggest mouthpieces and attorneys chase strangio

They're suffering from extreme ratio exhaustion, R34.

This will end in tears.

Fuck that shit-for-brains Newsom. Has all that Plumpjack wine decayed his already peanut-sized brain? Read below for what female prisoners and guards will have in store for them.

Plus, that CT Petit family murderer is jumping from one identity to another. Gone from an Orthodox Jew bitching about Kosher food in prison to trans. Why on earth are we catering to the mentally ill and manipulative criminals?

This policy is based on the belief that trans women commit victimless crimes like credit card fraud to pay for their gender reassignment surgery, only for their transphobic children to report them to the police.

There is no acknowledgment that men who target vulnerable women to abuse them are cunning, manipulative and devious and will play the system however they can to abuse their victims.

They could have announced safeguards, such as violent and sexual offenders will be held to a higher threshold and trans prisoners will initially be segregated etc. But no, just feel free to request a move and don't worry about shaving off your beard or making an effort to look like you're trans because no one fucking cares!

Make it conditional on the prisoner having his tackle chopped off, then see how many of them are still keen to go to a women's prison.

Bizarre that it's totally okay for biological females to be raped by biological men in prison, but we can't possibly have those biological men feeling pouty because they either dress as a female in a men's prison and get harassed or they dress as men to avoid harassment but feel affronted. If MTF don't want to go to men's prisons, don't commit crimes. No doubt they'll be upset after some female gives them a Bobbitt-ing.

R37 Have you ever heard of "The Toolbox Killers" Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris? Until he died, Bittaker was infamous for filing lawsuits about every little thing? I'm guessing Hayes is the same way.

My sister is one of those weirdos who reads and watches massive amounts of true crime, and she rates them as "the worst."

R21 made me gasp aloud. (It’s okay, I’m a woman)

And women get called names if they object. I will not ever vote for Newsom again.

Going back to voting GOP, R43?

I am voting Biden/Harris this November, R44, for the most obvious reason (Trump), but I am extremely angry about how Democrats have prioritized a tiny minority of fetishistic straight men's feelings over women's physical safety. They are going to lose votes over this, and they have only themselves to blame. The rights and protections of 51% of the population are not something to play games with.

R33, Exactly. This is not going to end well.

War on women.

Holy fuck is Barbie Kardashian a brutally obvious nutjob. Buffalo Bill move over!

Half the MtF trannies in England and Wales are sex offenders, and I feel like I saw a similar study of California prisoners once. But hey, what does the inevitable rape of women really mean when compared to the fragile feelings of mentally ill men?

A man deciding what's best for women instead of allowing women to decide that for themselves. Gavin is acting like a true misogynistic macho.

Yes, why not bring all those sexual offenders into a female prison. After all, we are only talking about women. Not important.

R44 no I have never voted Republican in my life and will not start now. I voted Newsom but will skip voting for gov if I have to.

Disgusted by the transphobia here.

Can I say first I’m the biggest supporter of women and many of these women shouldn’t be in prison in the first place. Prison as a concept demonstrates the worst excesses of white suprematist colonialist patriarchy. Sexual assault committed by all genders should be condemned.

However when it comes to trans women and in particular trans women of co

R8, Is he fucking around again too?

Thank god you came to your senses and cut your screed short, R52.

Fuck off r52

[quote] I feel like I saw a similar study of California prisoners once.

Survey done in 2009 by California Department of Corrections reported that 20% of transgender inmates were sex offenders and 65% were diagnosed as mentally ill. The percentage of the general prison population was significantly lower in these categories.

If MTFs are allowed to be placed in women’s prisons, I think they should be housed in a specific MTF ward—yes, I know that’s segregation but it seems the best way to keep bio female inmates safe.

Gavin Newsom needs to sign a law that allows me to orally service him front and back on a regular basis.

I used to live in Sacramento and I hate him.

Cool. Harris County did this in 2013.

R52 got cut off when a MTF (WITH dick) strayed into her jail cell.

The discussion about where to put prisoners does seem to focus on where trans women go. Is it ever addressed that FTM would therefore go in the men's prisons? I don't think it should be "dealer's choice" but rather, I'd force the discussion because if we say, "OK we'll house you based on your legal gender," FTM would have to pipe up and say no thank you--unless they are willing to go to men's prisons. Hope not!

If i was going to prison I'd do a transition. Im not gonna be forced to join a race gang like in male prisons.

R61 It's rare for them to push to be allowed into men's bathrooms and the like.

That wrestler in Texas was fighting to be allowed to wrestle in the women's division while taking her testerone prescription- literal doping. Her parents thought the substance ban shouldn't apply to her because of her gender identity.

I thought it was obvious my post was satire but maybe too close to the bone.

Why are so many trannies in prison?? Just more proof that they are mentally unstable.

R61. I have worked (physician) as a consultant for years for the Dept of Corrections.

Previously, the policy was that all trans MtF were placed in a special pop unit at Tehachapi. This unit was separate from the other yards to reduce bulling/harm to the trans inmates. Also on the yard were other classes of inmates who face very high levels of violence if they remain in the general pop:

effeminate gay men

gang drop outs

sex offenders

I enjoyed working in this segregated unit. Lots of minor drama, some cat fights involving minor scratching/hair pulling but no significant violence. All the trans inmates had access to a doctor specializing in hormonal treatment for trans.

R61 This hit on why I'm skeptical of the transgender movement in general: it's very focused on MTF and ignores FTM.

The logical conclusion is that the healthcare wing of men's and women's prisons adapt to having maternity facilities.

WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG.

Indeed r64/r52, the trans discourse is so crazy that it's not even possible to satirise it.

Let's face it - this is for MTFs. No FTMs are going to go into a male prison.

I thought that they segregated them already in their own special division like they do on Rikers Island?

So wait, FTM are men, right? Trans men are men, and must go to men's prisons? That's the crack in the facade I'd scratch at.

I don't actually want trans men endangered by being forced to use the men's bathroom, but in the discussion, I'd want to push someone to say whether this sounds right: trans men are men so they must use the men's bathroom. And if anyone points out that trans men are at risk in the men's bathroom, I'd ask what makes them say that? What could possibly be in the men's bathroom that puts trans men at risk? What combination of allegedly negligible genitalia and empirical evidence gives you that impression?

No, transmen are not at risk.

Finally, a lock her up! I can get behind.

[quote] Let's face it - this is for MTFs. No FTMs are going to go into a male prison

exactly. r71 nailed it.

for all their tough talk about being men, when the shit hits the fan, they prefer being women.

Yes, they'll never give up female privilege.

Um, having to avoid a place because if you go there you'll get raped for being a female human being isn't what I'd call "female privilege," R75.

[quote] Half the MtF trannies in England and Wales are sex offenders

The half that are in prison, not in the general population according to they ridiculous web site you linked.

R67 It's funny, isn't it? In most minority struggles, we guys typically assume significant leadership positions. We are supposed to believe MTFs are 100% women, yet absolutely everything MUST revolve around them at all times, meanwhile FTMs (their supposedly "male" counterparts) are left in the dust.

Mmmmmm... really makes you think, doesn't it?

The MTF don't see FTM as "men". They see them as women and they hate women.

So brave

Newsom seems really stupid. When does his term expire?

And do gay men, who are at higher risk of being raped in prison than ciswomen, have a place to go, R76?

[quote]Um, having to avoid a place because if you go there you'll get raped for being a female human being isn't what I'd call "female privilege," [R75].

[R75] is the Misogyny Troll who thinks women should no longer have rights to single sex spaces to accommodate trans women, but refuses to accept trans men as women.

When anyone challenges him he accuses them of being a cunt, a dyke, a homophobe, a radfem, a fish. He just hates women and has no problem with women being at threat from sexual violence.

Do you believe gay men should have a right to safe spaces in prisons, given that they’re at a much higher risk of rape than other groups including ciswomen?

The provisions that [R66] highlights for effeminate gay men are quite appropriate and the prosecution punishment for men who commit rapes need to be harsher.

You're deliberately blind to the realisation that gay men are more likely to be raped than women in prisons simply because women's prisons don't have men in them. Your response to that is to put male rapists in women's prisons so we can have equality in prison rapes!

You really are men's rights activist.

You were silent on sexual assault that gay men suffered despite it happening at much higher rates.

All prisons are gender segregated, but few have facilities for gay men.

The danger gay men face is more pressing right now.

Protecting gay men in prisons and protecting women in prisons isn't an either/or argument. You clearly loathe women and have no interest in their rights.

I'm just glad most of the gay men and lesbians contributing to this thread have respect for women's sex based rights and can appreciate the danger in allowing *any* man to self ID as a woman and be housed in a woman's prison. And they appreciate the risks that transgender men face if they were to be housed in a men's prison.

[quote][R61] This hit on why I'm sceptical of the transgender movement in general: it's very focused on MTF and ignores FTM.

An obvious reason for this is that biological females are significantly less violent than biological men. In the UK there are around 80,000 men in prison at any given time, and 4000 women., i.e. barely 5% of the prison population. Biological factors mean females are less likely to commit violent or sexual crimes which require a prison sentence both as punishment and public protection. It's established that women often get harsher sentences for minor crimes than men do, and are often coerced into their crimes by violent and abusive men.

But with the rise in young girls transitioning, having double mastectomies and starting hormone treatment that gives them facial and body hair we will begin seeing high profile cases any time soon.

[quote] It's established that women often get harsher sentences for minor crimes than men do, and are often coerced into their crimes by violent and abusive men.

No, it isn't.

How does this make any sense. They are just girly men.

First rule of misandry: men are responsible for women’s bad behavior.

Women get tougher sentences than men - Wednesday June 05 2019

Women offenders are being given disproportionately harsher sentences than men, a report published yesterday has said.

Research published by the crime and justice specialists, Crest Advisory, shows that only 15 per cent of women sentenced to prison have committed serious offences, compared with 27 per cent for men. For non-violent crime, the pattern in gender disparity sentencing is repeated.

In 2017 more than one in three of all prison sentences handed down to women was for shoplifting compared with only one in ten for men. Short sentences of six months or less correspond with the highest reoffending rate of all sentences. The report said that 73 per cent of women serving these short custodial sentences went on to reoffend, compared with 63 per cent of men.

“Politicians from all sides have long agreed on what needs to change to improve outcomes for vulnerable women in the criminal justice system,” Sarah Kincaid, the head of policy at Crest Advisory, said. “But despite the consensus, little has changed because the criminal justice system is too centralised and reactive to drive sustainable change.

“A decade on from the Corston report, alternatives to custody remain under-funded and patchy, meaning too many women continue to be sentenced to ineffective short sentences in prison.”

She added: “Our report, which draws on extensive deep-dives in two major police force areas, provides a blueprint for reducing women’s offending and the numbers going to prison.

“We set out how local services — and budgets — need to be brought together to address women’s vulnerabilities; from mental health problems or financial hardship to domestic abuse or substance misuse.”

Nothing in that article proves the point of the headline.

“ In 2017 more than one in three of all prison sentences handed down to women was for shoplifting compared with only one in ten for men. Short sentences of six months or less correspond with the highest reoffending rate of all sentences. The report said that 73 per cent of women serving these short custodial sentences went on to reoffend, compared with 63 per cent of men.”

So women do disproportionately more nonviolent crimes when compared to men, but at a ten percent higher frequency. Not really seeing the problem here. Would they rather have women commit more violent crimes?

"How does this make any sense. They are just girly men."

The problem is that they are NOT "girly" in the least. Take a poll of your female friends and relatives and ask them this: "Would you rather share a prison cell with A.) an effeminate gay man, or B.) a trans 'lesbian' who was a heterosexual male before transitioning?"

There isn't a woman in her right mind who would choose the latter.

The radfems seem to hate the former just as much as the latter.

[quote]The radfems seem to hate the former just as much as the latter.

No one hates anything as much as you hate women.

Why are you so obsessed about wanting women to lose single sex spaces?

If you think gay men are at such risk from straight men, why not focus on improved services for them rather than take down women's rights? Why does your mens rights activism focus on women as the target and not other men?

[quote]If you think gay men are at such risk from straight men, why not focus on improved services for them

We do.

You don't. You never mentioned gay men until someone else mentioned it.

You're a women's rights activist not a gay rights activist.

I can’t believe this requires explaining but Target owns the bathrooms at Target. The customers don’t. They’re not ‘women’s spaces’ they’re bathrooms at target. When target decides that trans women can use a certain bathroom it’s not a public health or public safety or culture war issue. Remember in these instances you’re not ein public, it’s a private business. Why are these battlegrounds in US discourse always so cringey in their terms, like why is it always an argument over something happening at the mall.

In Europe there are large unisex bathrooms in shopping centers - are the centers declaring all their customers are trans by this? Is everyone raping each other? Are women falling down in the streets scandalized at the thoughts of having to use the space? No. People are going about their day and minding their business. Jesus you people are such losers.

[quote]In Europe there are large unisex bathrooms in shopping centers - are the centers declaring all their customers are trans by this? Is everyone raping each other? Are women falling down in the streets scandalized at the thoughts of having to use the space? No. People are going about their day and minding their business. Jesus you people are such losers.

You're comparing toilet access in shopping centres to prisons.

You're comparing toilet access in shopping centres to prisons, where 95% of the population are male. 20% are sex offenders.

So roughly, for every 1 woman in prison, there are 4 men who have committed sexual offences.

People want to give male prisoners the opportunity to be housed in women's prisons, and you're comparing that to using a toilet in a shopping centre?

Seriously?

Nobody's making any comparisons.

Someone is just pointing out another radfem talking point.

So MRA Troll, seeing as you're so concerned about the safety of effeminate gay men in men's spaces, do you use women's toilets in shopping centres?

No, I would not feel safe in a one.

I don't believe gay men who feel safer in one should be allowed to.

But mostly I remain suspicious of anyone who claims to be both a gay man and is as obsessed with women's bathroom as British housewives.

Dear, the bathrooms at Target are subject to state and local jurisdiction, laws, and codes. Target is not some private kingdom nor does any shopper waive their rights once they walk in.

Woops!

To clarify:

I DO believe gay men who feel safer in one should be allowed to use one.

But I wouldn't (they're filthy).

[quote] Dear, the bathrooms at Target are subject to state and local jurisdiction, laws, and codes. Target is not some private kingdom nor does any shopper waive their rights once they walk in.

And the law of the land allows for them to decide.

So what's your point?

MRA Troll, do you have ANY functioning relationships with women? A mother, sister, colleague, friend?

Have you ever encountered a female homophobe?

(I guess not since you keep trying to conflate gay men's rights with women's rights as though they're the same).

Yes I have met female homophobes, but they were vastly outnumbered by the non homophobic women, including a lot of lesbians, who I am related to, work with and are friends with.

And compared to my male friends, including gay men, my female friends have far worse experiences of sexism, misogyny, sexual harassment and reproductive health issues. They stand up for my rights as a gay man, I stand up for their rights as women.

It's really quite easy when you're not a misogynist.

[quote] And compared to my male friends, including gay men, my female friends have far worse experiences of sexism, misogyny, sexual harassment and reproductive health issues.

How lucky you are.

No woman has endured what I have as a gay man.

Do you know something, R110, since women are so great and you love advocating for them and not gay men, I suggest you leave this gay board and start posting on Mumsnet.

I'm sure they'll love you there. It seems like more your scene.

R3 that’s a tranny? Heard nothing on RTÉ about that.

"In Europe there are large unisex bathrooms in shopping centers" - I've never seen anything like this in any shopping centre anywhere in Europe, r100, and I've used plenty of toilets (as they are called in Europe - you're not having a bath) in plenty of shopping centres all over Europe.

Thankfully in Europe - despite a few countries having passed gender self-ID - we haven't gone as far down the trans rabbit hole as you have in the US and still have single-sex toilets in such large public areas as shopping centres where lots of strangers mingle.

If you want an example of a trans issue in Europe that people in the US should take note of, have a look at crazed "Barbie Kardashian" in Ireland, a male who has violently and viciously attacked women and has fantasies about raping and killing them, and has threatened to murder his own mother. Because he self-identifies as a woman and Ireland has gender self-declaration, he is legally considered a woman and has been placed in a woman's prison. Barbie has taken no hormones or had "gender reassignment" surgery, he's all male but Irish law has to consider him female. Apparently, there as an Irish High Court order not to mention that Barbie is a transwoman, so Irish media have to refer to him as "a violent woman who is a threat to other women".

It's a testament to the strength of society's domination by women and homophobia that someone would come onto a gay board and then start telling gay men how women have things so much worse than them.

If I tried to do the opposite on Mumsnet I'd be blocked in seconds.

R114 first of all in Europe nobody uses ‘male’ as a noun. Secondly we’ve had mention of this Barbie Kardashian several times - it’s so funny when people like you repeat the one example over and over again because - it’s the only one.

[quote}This is an anonymous forum, so what have your trauma been? The traumas that you have experienced solely because you are a gay man?

Apparently, even the Tavistock clinic in London - the mission of which appears to be to trans as many kids as possible, especially gay ones - thought Barbie was faking having gender dysphoria and rejected him for transitioning. Thanks to Irish gender self-recognition laws, however, Barbie became legally a female just like that, with no psychological assessment.

[quote]No woman has endured what I have as a gay man.

This is an anonymous forum, so what have your traumas been? The traumas that you have experienced solely because you are a gay man and has left you with a visceral loathing of women?

Pushing this stupid bathroom logic further - if you all believe trans women shouldn’t be in the same bathroom as women then it’s very easy to expand this logic to where people will suggest gay men shouldn’t be sharing bathroom spaces with straight men. Because straight men couldn’t be safe right? And I’m sure I can find an example or two of this having happened before, because apparently all you need is one example according to the procedures being set forth in this thread.

Bad use of strawman argument R120.

How often do gay men attack straight men? Are DL'ers venturing outside of Hells Kitchen and West Hollywood, forming bands and raping straight men they encounter?

Do straight men sexually assault XX's? Yes, all the time. Even if they are dressed up in women's clothing (autogynophiles), they still attack women.

That's funny r116, because I'm a native English speaker. It wasn't that long ago in Europe that "woman" simply meant a person of the female sex or that people who menstruated were known as women. Also, because I happen to know more than one European language, the equivalent of "male" in many languages is an adjective. Not only that, there is a widespread use of "male" as an adjective in British English.

We're talking about Barbie because this is an incident that is happening right now. Not only is this case very current, it also exposes all the fallacies about both gender self-id and putting biological men in women's prisons. This is all just the tip of the iceberg of incidents that will increase as gender self-id and the habit of putting biological men with all their male genitalia spreads.

Not to mention, the High Court tried to suppress Barbie's transgender status and full male body parts being known. If this fact hadn't got out, Irish papers would still have to have been using the bullshit formula of "violent woman with a history of attacking women". I wonder how many other stories of violent transwomen (i.e. men) have been suppressed because of similar rulings.

If you want another example, however, from the same link: [quote]And yet, we know that Barbie, who is biologically male and who has a lengthy track record of targeting women for violence, has now been placed in the women’s section of Limerick prison. It’s not the first time this has happened since the 2015 Act, the women’s prison in Limerick already has a transgender inmate. That inmate was convicted of 10 counts of sexual assault and one count of cruelty against a child. It is understood that, as with Barbie, they have not undergone any surgical or hormonal transition but they are in possession of a gender recognition certificate saying they are female.

R121 mmmm dickhead that’s exactly my point, that this concept of trans women raping women is extremely rare and therefore rationally not worthy of 1) legislating or 2) tarring all trans women with the same brush. And that the incidences are totally blown out of proportion. Trans women are not straight men so your other point is moot.

Notice how r120 is trying to divert from the topic and shift to the transwomen just wanting a pee public toilets argument. We're talking about violent male offenders in women's prisons, not going to the toilet.

“That's funny [R116], because I'm a native English speaker. It wasn't that long ago in Europe that "woman" simply meant a person of the female sex or that people who menstruated were known as women. Also, because I happen to know more than one European language, the equivalent of "male" in many languages is an adjective. Not only that, there is a widespread use of "male" as an adjective in British English.”

Wow R122. Yes as I said it’s not a noun. Did you read my comment? Noun - man, adjective - male. Is it so difficult? You must be confused. Read more slowly next time.

Correction to r122: "Also, because I happen to know more than one European language, the equivalent of "male" in many languages is a noun. Not only that, there is a widespread use of "male" as an noun in colloquial British English."

Gay men’s spaces belong to everyone. Gay men in them are expected to quantity their oppression when they express it lest it should displease their oppressors.

R124 I was replying to other posters that brought up the ‘women’s spaces’ part. One more thing on that - it’s so patronizing that a bunch of gay guys talk about ‘women’s spaces’ as being bathrooms and locker rooms - as if women are so two dimensional and uninspired that they only spaces that are deemed to be women’s are for those functions. And to act so sanctimoniously while doing so “you may not care about women but I do and I will protect their bathrooms at Walmart” gimme a break.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

I’ll start advocating for ciswomen when radfems start advocating for gay men.

I also want to hear about the trauma the Gay Men's Rights Troll has experienced, R119. Especially from 'ciswomen'.

Let us in, GMRT. You're among friends here.

R129 you honestly expect me to take anything that daily mail writes as truth? Come on now.

Yeah r125, I corrected as you were posting, dinner was almost ready so I was typing fast.

By the way, woman = adult human female. Person who menstruates = woman.

Radfems = lesbians and trust me they had our backs before it was cool and progressive

Yes, Mumsnet is full of threads about how gay men deserve our own spaces...

Wait... what?

It’s full of threads calling gay men muhsoggy!?

I’m going to use daily mail logic for this comment.

In men’s prisons up until now let’s say rape happens as a regular occurrence. Let’s say 100% of these rapes are committed by men. Daily mail says that these are homosexual acts, therefore must be committed by homosexuals. Gay men are to blame for all rape in prisons therefore gay men should not be allowed in men’s prisons because they are so dangerous! I mean look at these statistics!

R133 It makes sense that food would distract you. Don’t eat as fast as you type, it’s not healthy - although something tells me you will anyway.

R132, that's a pretty lame response as the Daily Mail was simply reproducing the official figures as released because of a request under the Freedom of Information Act. The Ministry of Justice was also being quoted. You sound shocked at how high the figures are of sexual assaults by biological men ("transwomen") in women's prisons.

R136, are the rapes in men's prisons really carried out by gay prisoners - or are they more often carried out as acts of power against gay male prisoners? You're also overlooking the obvious (no surprise, since you're a man and have no fucking clue what it means to be a woman - a real woman, not a transwoman): male offenders should not be in women's prisons, especially violent ones, especially those with all their genitalia.

If we were to follow your "logic" then we might as well get rid of sex-segregated prisons altogether and have unisex prisons instead. Sorry, gender-neutral prisons.

Now I’ll be an easily persuaded daily mail reader:

“Wow if gay men are raping people in prison at these high rates maybe it’s not safe for my 15year old son to be around gay men, for instance he has that gay teacher at school, maybe I’ll send a letter to the school and suggest they find a straight teacher it will be safer for the kids!”

Don’t be a dickhead that listens to the daily mail.

R138 wow. Is your brain bleeding?

"If the left-wing media didn't report it, it didn't happen"

[quote] then we might as well get rid of sex-segregated prisons altogether and have unisex prisons instead. Sorry, gender-neutral prisons.

Good.

R137, it wasn't my food that was distracting me, it was my girlfriend telling me to get off Datalounge because dinner was nearly ready.

As for distractions, that's what you're trying to do all the time, but we see you - everything to avoid the fact that violent male inmates ("transwomen") should not be in women's prisons: prisons are the same as toilets! They have single-sex toilets all over European shopping centres! Gay men rape in men's prisons! Male is not a noun! The Daily Mail makes up official statistics! Barbie Kardashian is the only one! The figures that you're producing to show that Barbie Kardashian is not the only one are from the Daily Mail so I'm going to pretend they're not real! Don't eat too fast! I bet you're fat!

People like you don't realise that the more you go one with your juvenile "arguments", the more damage you are doing to the trans cause.

R138 see what your precious daily mail thinks of us?

British media is becoming more homophobic with radical feminism acting as a cover.

R143 ok since you bring up doing damage rather than good:

Straight people, politicians, media outlets etc etc view lesbians, trans people, gay men and bisexuals as part of a singular group, it’s called the LGBT. This is not going to change. When you (a supposed lesbian(Who knows it’s an anon site)) make online arguments against trans people that eventually get picked up by media outlets because there’s noise made about it, it telegraphs discord within the LGBT community to the straight world, this weakens our political position and power. This suits the powers that be. It’s easier for them to allow the political energy within our community to be spent on infighting rather than furthering our own collective needs (of which there are many).

So the next time that you think about complaining about poor you having to share a public toilet with a trans person (and just to be clear we’re not talking about a cubicle just the area where you wash your hands) think about who you’re really harming by doing this.

How can women tell the difference btw a man and a transwoman r120 since both are male and we segregate bathrooms by sex?

Some lesbians have made it clear they’d be happy for gayrights to be erased if it hurt trans women.

Some are trolls.

An ‘80s style gay men want to molest children article was posted here two weeks ago

And because the authoress was a TERF lesbians on this site defended her.

How is this possibly seen as "progressive"?

The Gender Identity Movement really needs to think these things out before demanding them. Such foolishness!

[quote]"If the left-wing media didn't report it, it didn't happen"

This is part of the problem. Left wing outlets are deliberately not reporting aspects of stories. This article in The Guardian doesn't mention THE REASON this trans woman is in a men's prison is because they have a history of sexual and non sexual violence against women. And because the trans women to transition in prison invariably change their name, it's hard to find out information about the offender.

One of the Irish websites that showed the photo of Barbie Kardashian and the police warning looks like it's a Catholic anti abortion site, which is deeply problematic.

[quote]I DO believe gay men who feel safer in one should be allowed to use one.

The MRA Troll thinks gay men should be able to access women's toilets because gay men are vulnerable to attacks from straight men, but doesn't have any consideration on how women might feel to be followed into a toilet by a 6'3 man with a beard.

It is worth noting that certainly in the UK, the only debates about trans women in women's toilets started to take place after Stonewall and other LGBT organisations kept pushing the person in the link as a Trans Champion. No one had an issue with Hayley Cropper, Nadia from Big Brother, Miriam, Paris Lees, Caroline Cossey etc. but tell women that they need to share their spaces with men with beards and they start to get funny.

Anyway, still waiting to hear about the trauma MRA Troll has experienced in his life which is worse than any woman has ever suffered.

R152 but opinions aside on the subject matter, don’t you accept that it’s unfair to legislate or to qualify regulations based on comfort levels? I mean we don’t need to look far back to black people on certain areas of buses and white peoples level of comfort with that to understand that people’s comfort levels shouldn’t have much significance when deciding these issues.

[quote]Anyway, still waiting to hear about the trauma MRA Troll has experienced in his life which is worse than any woman has ever suffered.

Do you try to analyze ciswomen's experiences like that?

Like when one of those fish talks about how uncomfortable they are with trans women existing, do you then demand they explain exactly how they felt and rank it on a scale?

Gay men owe nothing to someone who does not even believe gay men should be allowed Datalounge as a space free from women.

[quote][R152] but opinions aside on the subject matter, don’t you accept that it’s unfair to legislate or to qualify regulations based on comfort levels? I mean we don’t need to look far back to black people on certain areas of buses and white peoples level of comfort with that to understand that people’s comfort levels shouldn’t have much significance when deciding these issues.

When it comes to trans people using public toilets, people should feel free to use the toilet of their choice that they feel most comfortable in, but I completely understand why women would react to a 6'3 bearded person following them into the women's toilets. Comparing it to racial segregation is completely inappropriate.

There are obvious reason why toilet facilities are segregated by biological sex. Women can't piss standing up, most men with functioning penises can piss standing up so have urinals. Women take longer to use toilets because they often have periods they need to attend to, and women who have experienced child birth often have complications as well which require more frequent visits.

Having unisex toilets which men and women use equally are popular in some parts of Europe but then so is nudity on beaches. A lot of men don't like using urinals, and I'm sure even fewer men would want to use a urinal when there are women walking past. So in unisex toilets men and women are using the same cubicles which means longer queues. The Old Vic experienced this when they refurbished their toilets. Women who had to wait longer to use the toilet in the 20 minute interval weren't best pleased. See the attached link on what's happened in school toilets.

For more on this read Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez.

Self contained cubicles with a toilet, sink, disabled facilities etc are also woefully underprovided and are needed for everyone's basic dignity

This is a completely different subject to how men and women are segregated in prison. I believe non violent trans women who have met a certain criteria should be housed in women's prison, but for physically and sexually violent sex offenders like Barbie Kardashian, women need to be protected from them.

This is what lesbians spent most of the '70s doing.

[quote]most men with functioning penises can piss standing up so have urinals.

They should be illegal.

By that same argument, transwomen would claim they are more comfortable in using opposite sex spaces. Or are they the only ones who get to assert that it’s about their personal safety?

It's okay for women to not want cis lesbians in their spaces.

'Butch lesbians' should be checked to ensure they really are cis.

It's about safety.

I'm so glad we're having another lesbians vs. trannies cage match.

My money's on the lesbians.

They usually have a lot more bulk.

R158 that’s it. It’s a conflation of safety and comfort. Remember when straight people weren’t comfortable with gay people in lockerrooms? Or teaching their kids in schools, or bringing them on tours of museums etc etc. the basis of this being just because you’re uncomfortable with someone it doesn’t mean you can stop their having access to spaces.

[quote]I'm so glad we're having another lesbians vs. trannies cage match.

The only person trying to get lesbians to fight transwomen is the MRA Troll, the gay man who has suffered like no other woman in history.

R155 I don’t understand whatever point it is you’re trying to make with the nudity on beaches comment. I have been in a public toilet before that had stalls and then a separate area with a urinal (non passthrough and properly signed) and was open to both sexes / all genders however you want to phrase it. It seemed immensely practical, and nobody was screaming about their rights being denied to them.

[quote][R158] that’s it. It’s a conflation of safety and comfort. Remember when straight people weren’t comfortable with gay people in lockerrooms? Or teaching their kids in schools, or bringing them on tours of museums etc etc. the basis of this being just because you’re uncomfortable with someone it doesn’t mean you can stop their having access to spaces.

So what outcome would you like?

Do you agree with the MRA Troll that there should be straight men's toilets and toilets for trans people, gay men and biological females?

Should we have even have single sex toilets? Just rip out all the urinals, put cubicles in their place and fit each one with a tampon bin.

R163 It took him several days, but he goaded the lezzies into it finally.

R165 I think in terms of toilets you shouldn’t be concentrating on others. Use a toilet when you need to use one. And remember when you’re not in the privacy of your own home, it’s really none of your business.

My preference would be regularly cleaned toilets for gay men only.

Then straight men, cis dykes, British women who spend too much time on Twitter, and Caitlyn can have some whatever toilets to share between themselves.

*kisses*

It's just really strange for a gay man to be obsessed with women's toilets.

Like I can't think of anything I care less about.

[quote]the gay man who has suffered like no other woman in history.

Gay men speaking about their oppression is funny!

Tee-hee!

What drama queens!

[quote][R163] It took him several days, but he goaded the lezzies into it finally.

I suppose lesbians could just have their own board.

Oh, wait... they do.

I know I don't want this crazed man in the bathrooms that my sisters and their daughters use.

Nah...

Doesn't bother me.

I worry more about what transphobia she might experience.

Ya and R172 I could say I wouldn’t want your daughters in the bathroom I use but I also understand that that’s.....not for me to decide.....and none of my business. You may as well let the crazy moms stop gays from being in bathrooms with their husbands and sons. Give me strength!

Yes, R174, it would be an absolute horror; R172's sisters and nieces raping you with their vulvas, as women and girls will do. Dear Lord in heaven, will it ever be safe for men to use public bathrooms?

Tediously... Explaining... Reality... to Fuckwits.

Gay men have always been made to feel unsafe in restrooms, not always through physical threat.

R175 is this the reclaimed TERF usage now? How cringe.

Explain who commits most sexual assault in women’s prisons with trans women in them.

It’s not straight women.

Newsom's going hogwild with these royal decrees.

R144, yes, the Daily Mail under Paul Dacre was disgusting and even then it was mostly over 10 years ago. The new Daily Mail editor is far more liberal. You know who really hates same-sex relationships? Trans cultists. They hate the idea that we love others of our own sex. Look around today - the only real opponents of same-sex relationships in Western countries, aside from a few religious cranks that are not significant, are the trans cultists. They believe that lesbians have penises and gay men have vaginas - I'm presuming you believe that too, since you support their views.

The figures the Daily Mail published are not wrong - are you disputing the figures that the Ministry of Justice itself released? Are you denying the Ministry of Justice statement that "Since 2010, out of the 124 sexual assaults that occurred in the female [prisons] a total of seven of those were sexual assaults against females in custody perpetrated by transgender individuals"?

Why are you denying it? Is it because you find the Ministry of Justice figures disturbingly high and so are trying to pretend they're not real?

You know who really hates male same-sex relationships? Rad fems.

[quote][R144], yes, the Daily Mail under Paul Dacre was disgusting and even then it was mostly over 10 years ago. The new Daily Mail editor is far more liberal.

The black dance group Diversity performed on Britain's Got Talent a few weeks ago and their performance was inspired by the BL:M movement and for a brief second the lead dancer Ashley Banjo (also one of the judges) appeared face down with white dancer dressed as policeman with a knee on his neck.

The Daily Mail ran a hysterical campaign to make sure it was the most complained about TV show ever, providing daily updates. A week or so later, the amazing Aleesha Dixon, a black woman, appeared with a BLM necklace. The Daily Mail ran another campaign to get the complaints in. None of the complaints were upheld.

[quote]MailOnline alone has published more than 20 articles about the incident, with tabloid news sites regularly posting articles about the rising number of complaints to Ofcom about the Black Lives Matter dance. These articles apparently prompted even more complaints, almost a fortnight after the show originally aired.

This is nothing new for the Daily Mail/Mail Online, but what was fascinating was how similar Pink News campaign against JK Rowling has been. They have used exactly the same tactics. Deliberately mislead people and then keep reporting on the backlash, and when people react to the backlash, report on the backlash to that.

Back on the subject of prisons:

The Limerick Leader, a local Irish newspaper, ran the story with the headline "Organisation condemns decision to detain biological male who identifies as female in women's wing of Limerick Prison". in relation to the case of Barbie Kardashian case, the self IDing trans woman with a history of extreme violence against women, who has made repeated threats to rape women. This person was under the care of the Tavistock Clinic in London. which deals with children and young people with gender dysphoria, and was assessed to NOT be transgender.

This is the response from the "Limerick Feminist Network"

[quote]We are profoundly disappointed with the recent piece shared by the Limerick Leader. The Limerick Feminist Network have been active in Limerick and working on the ground with the feminist community for several years and we are disappointed that we were not contacted for comment. Never the less, here are out views on the matter.

[quote]Trans women are not a threat to cis women. With the rise of the far right and the huge increase in calls to domestic and sexual violence support services since the beginning of lockdown it is clear that some of the biggest threats to women right now are cis men and white supremacy.

[quote]The notion that cis men are pretending to identify as female, changing their names and obtaining certificates of gender recognition just to get access to abuse and victimise women is not only ludicrous but completely inaccurate and a narrative that makes trans women incredibly unsafe.

[quote]Trans women are women, trans men are men. We stand with all of our LGBTQIA+ siblings and will continue to promote and practice feminism that is inclusive and intersectional.

[quote]It is never ok to deadname a trans person. There is no place for transphobia in Irish feminism.

[quote]We hope that the Limerick Leader takes the time to learn from this and urge them to contact and include the diverse voices of local community organisations in future.

Where do you even start.

Ireland is slightly less transphobic than UK at least.

evil

Half of the male to female transgender prisoners in the UK are serving sentences for sex offenses (rape, sexual assault, sexual abuse of children), compared to only 20% of the general male prison population.

All the more reason they need to be housed where they feel safest.

The MRA Troll is going full Aunt Lydia today.

The MRA Troll is going full Aunt Lydia today.

Is advocating for gay men still men’s right activism?

It's a testament to how small the population of Ireland is that I know one of Barbie Kardashians social workers. He tried to kill her with a kitchen knife. Maps maps and diaries detailing the movements of the care home staff. Who he'd have to stab first by weight so as not to full the knife etc.

She still feels more pity for him than anything else. Realistically he's better of dead, and society better off without him. One way or another he'll end up in solitary for life. It's just a matter of when, not if he kills someone.

The trans bullshit is certainly bullshit but realistically he's going to be in solitary and flanked by at least 2 guards for the duration of his stay in Limerick woman's prison. The real issue is that they can't detain him indefinitely based purely on verbal threats etc.

[quote]Is advocating for gay men still men’s right activism?

Facilitating rape is

I feel radfems do that by not advocating for gay men to have spaces to themselves in prisons.

R186 great link - I’m not sure if you clicked through to the BBC link contained within your article which gives perspective to these numbers but I’ve linked it below.

“ In April 2017, 17 of Scotland's 7,436 prisoners were transgender, according to the Scottish Prison Service. Northern Ireland's prison service chose not to tell us whether it counts trans prisoners, but according to Parliamentary research, it is not aware of any.

In England and Wales, the Ministry of Justice (MoJ) now conducts an annual count of prisoners.

Between March and April 2017, it counted 125 transgender inmates in England and Wales, in a prison population of 85,513. It counted 70 over the same period in 2016.”

I’m guessing most of you aren’t great with numbers but I did some quickmaths and that’s 0.15% (2017) or 0.08% (2016) of prisoners in UK are trans, 0% (yes this means none) in NI and a whopping 0.2% in Scotland. How many of these stupid threads do we need over such insubstantial figures before you losers drop it. These are outlying cases and we all know that outlying cases should not ever be used to create case law pertaining to groups of people, nor should they be used as mechanisms as how to judge members of a population.

God you people are just obsessed.

[quote] Gay men have always been made to feel unsafe in restrooms, not always through physical threat.

That’s why we have threads asking if you ever peeked at another guy’s dick at the urinal.

R194 Nothing that you said debunks the fact that a disproportionate percentage of transgender inmates in the UK are convicted sex offenders. That BBC "fact check" is hilarious because their entire argument hinges entirely on a "what if" make-believe scenario where there are hundreds of non-sex-offending closeted/unidentified transgender inmates that haven't been recorded. They are shooting themselves in the foot by presenting a hypothetical situation wherein prisons are filled to the brim with transgender criminals. It's literally the equivalent of saying "well, sure, there are approximately 8 billion in the world right now, but there could be a trillion! Maybe they are living underwater!"

Let's say they are right, that there are TONS of unrecorded transgender inmates who are not sex offenders (1875 to be precise if we are to falsely believe transwomen commit sex crimes at the same rate as women) and that transwomen do not pose a threat to female inmates. If we were to apply the "transwomen are women" religious creed and transferred those 60 transgender sex offenders to a women's prison, this would increase the sex offender population by FIFTY percent. Anyone with half a brain (meaning not a rabid transactivist) can see that this is a huge problem.

And now for my routine public announcement about our resident psychotic troll who NEEDS TO BE BANNED:

R187 Is a mentally ill troll who has posted almost 50 times in this thread alone (you can check this by blocking him, going to "Ignored" and ctrl + f "Newsom"). I'm gonna say that again: this nutcase is responsible for 25% of all the posts in this thread, or 1 in every 4.

Checking his posting history will show you that he is nothing but a deranged homophobic tranny troll with extreme mommy issues. He shows up in every single thread that is even remotely related to trans and does everything in his power to either derail the discussion or shut down criticism.

Some gems from his posting history:

- Says that Bruce Jenner looks better than actual women

- Derailed a thread about a Moroccan tranny responsible for the suicides of multiple gay men

- Spends his entire time screeching about women (specially lesbians) and calling them "TERFs", "fish", "dykes", "cis", etc

- Believes all women are narcissists

- Thinks little gay boys should be doing drag

- Claims that he came here "for Lucille Ball discussions", yet his posting history shows that he's just a pathetic troll

Reminder to FF and block the deranged tranny troll. This is what transactivism does to your brain, kids.

[quote] All the more reason they need to be housed where they feel safest.

No. All the more reason they need to be housed where WE feel the safest. You can never make a mentally ill person feel safe. They will always find something to allegedly "fear". Irrational fears cannot be the standard.

[quote] It is never ok to deadname a trans person.

It is never ok to allow a criminal, especially a violent criminal, to hide behind an alias. True Names are important to identify those members of society need to protect themselves against.

Perhaps all trans who want to change their names must use the following name style: Crystal "Theodore Matlock" Heaven.

Why DO they need to change their names anyway? I thought they were all kinds of fluidy. Names can be gender fluid - look at Leslie, James, Frankie, Charlie, Joey, a guy named Sue.

Yes r182, it's very noticeable that you cannot dispute the Ministry of Justice figures as to how many trans inmates in women's prisons have carried out sexual assaults on the bio female inmates. Yet more distraction because even you are worried about how high those figures are.

[quote]I’m guessing most of you aren’t great with numbers but I did some quickmaths and that’s 0.15% (2017) or 0.08% (2016) of prisoners in UK are trans, 0% (yes this means none) in NI and a whopping 0.2% in Scotland. How many of these stupid threads do we need over such insubstantial figures before you losers drop it.

Yes r194, the number of trans prisoners in the UK is indeed very low (although higher than in the general population). This makes the over-representation of transwomen prisoners in women's prisons and the number of sexual assaults committed in women's prisons by trans prisoners even more glaring and disproportionally high.

Thankfully plans for gender self-ID in England and Wales have been dropped, otherwise those figures would go even higher.

You know we are just learning about serious assaults and they are ignoring all the other aggressive actions you know these trans are taking against the female inmates. Part of this is about getting a reaction from women and you can just imagine all the things they do to get that. No female inmate should have to endure this and live in apprehension and fear.

Newsom's actions just show he is clueless about women. Clueless and reckless.

R183 It is extremely difficult, and often impossible for "cisgender" people convicted of felonies to change their names. Why should transgender people get special treatment?

R200 since you’re just sooooo worried about disproportionate representations of populations in prisons you’d be far more concerned by the cis male population of prisons being around 90%+ for just under 50% of the population no? Also you cannot claim that the transgender population is over represented, the 0.1% prison (teeny tiny) is not comparable to a general population figure since there isn’t meaningful stats on the population of trans people in the UK. So why don’t you grab your pitchforks and go down to your local men’s club and protest there.

Also your figure of 60 extra people of sexual assaults for women’s prisons is again meaningless and if anything just goes to highlight the extremely disproportionately high quantity of cis male offenders - but of course you’re only concerned by a handful of trans prisoners b/c that’s how you get your kicks. Stop pretending you care about the issues you’re pretending to care about and just be honest babe.

And if the UK prison service can’t handle an extra 50 prisoners across their whole service then idk they have bigger proclaims to solve. No more lies if you’re going to reply pls & thank u.

[quote] I will not ever vote for Newsom again

It really doesn't matter who is the figurehead in a one party state. The people pulling the strings don't change.

"...disproportionately high quantity of cis male offenders - but of course you’re only concerned by a handful of trans prisoners b/c that’s how you get your kicks."

Bullshit. I and many others who are concerned with prisoner rights and protections have been calling for the removal of male prison guards from female prisons for DECADES. Trans-identified and gender-nonconforming males DO need to be protected from violent male inmates, but the answer is not to throw them into women's prisons. Create a separate space for them-- period. (And if you have a problem with that suggestion, be honest and admit that the real issue here, for you, is not safety but "validation.")

[quote]It is never ok to allow a criminal, especially a violent criminal, to hide behind an alias. True Names are important to identify those members of society need to protect themselves against.

This times 1 million - Fuck anyone who calls it deadnaming.

‘Safety is more important than validation’ is what we gay men have heard about blood since the Plague.

No, validation is just as important.

War against women.

This is why....

Titania is here to help