We Are Who We Are on HBO

So are we supposed to think it's cute that a 14 year old seems to have a drinking problem?

Unlike CMBYM, this show isn't afraid of dicks though.

The dicks are a plus.

The dongfulness we all screamed for in CMBYN. Be happy, gays.

The scenes with Fraser and his mother were like Psycho meets Mommy Dearest.

Nobody acted like real people. Dicks were nice though

And here's one of the dicks.

Watched the first ep. Are kids really this fucking weird these days? I felt the same way after watching Euphoria. And before you ask... yes, I am 98.

Well just like Euphoria, this is TV show, and you need interesting drama or it would be pretty damn boring r7.

Though the characters in Euphoria were supposed be 16-17, our protagonist here is only 14.

Hooray for dongfulness!

Is the Justin Bieber lookalike supposed to be mildly retarded?

Can't Armie have a dongful cameo?

[quote]Is the Justin Bieber lookalike supposed to be mildly retarded?

I don't think the character is, but it certainly came across that way.

I'm hooked by Luca Guadagnino's languid direction, but as R5 said, these characters are totally divorced from reality. The relationship between mother and son is especially bizarre -- a military mom who would allow her son to slap her?

She let him take sips of liquor in the middle of the airport r12, and then allowed him to slap her. It definitely doesn't feel the way that a woman who was able to rise to the top of military would raise her son.

I liked the 1st episode. It was weird but not too distracting. Great cast and "world building". I am interested in seeing what happens next.

Tom Mercier keeps getting hired to go full frontal r6. He was frequently naked in Synonymes

I lol'd hard when he slapped her. Thin slices bitch!

Mercier has only two credits to his name, and in both his big, fat dong has been a spectacular feature of his performances.

I loved "Synonyms," BTW.

Where can one see Synonyms?

R12/R13 Agreed on being divorced from reality. The Reddit thread on this had posts from military brats who said it was nothing like how life on a base and with military parents actually was/is.

It’s not meant to represent every military family but these particular characters.

They don't exist in a void though. Not if you want to pretend to have even a smear of realism.

Mind you, the biggest problem with regards to realism is thinking a solider, even a pedo solider, would be interested in JDG

I'm reposting from the other thread, sue me.

I watched the first episode. Can I get my hour back? WTF was going on? A whole lot of navel gazing and lots of self absorbed annoying people.

Guess I'm not the audience for this nonsense. At least I will admit that. Yet, I find EUPHORIA much more interesting, I care about the characters.

If people are watching this series for attractive performers, there wasn't one. Big deal, they showed cock, who cares. You want to see cock, watch porn. Why endure this?

That annoying fat blond is Martin Scorcese's daughter. I guess nepotism got these people their roles, the lead guy with the crapy hair and the fat blond are both there due to nepotism.

SYNONYMS is up for your streaming pleasure on The Criterion Channel. Subscribe!

De Italians, dey are so soulful, no? Dey use-ah da sewing machine-ah outdoors-ah!

Now we have-ah da sex dat mean everything and nothing at all-ah.

The only review I saw was really kinda negative, so I didn't watch.

The fact that there are extensive dicks makes me want to check it out though.

[quote]Jack Grazer staring at Tom Mercier nude in We Are Who We Are is the best thing to ever happen

Skinny and confused white boy who secretly into dicks riding bicycle in Italy... again?

There's dicks and Kloay Sevenee isn't sucking any of them?

[quote]There's dicks and Kloay Sevenee isn't sucking any of them?

No, because her character is a married lesbian who dresses like Mary Stuart Masterson in "Some Kind of Wonderful".

Oh boy, another chance for me to say I'm...

Tonight's episode wasn't as strong as the first one

R31 Was there any nudity?

Is it safe to say that Luca Guadagnino is officially an overrated hack?

Yes, R33 it's safe to say that, don't forget 'one note'.

How are the ratings?

117,000 people watched the first episode on television. That doesn't include streaming, etc.

A coming of age series? That's gonna be a tough sell on DL in terms of how DLers can relate to it. Dl's eldergays can barely remember what they had for breakfast!

Loved the lead being a stupid brat walking on the edge of the bridge only to fall down on the bridge side and scrap his face. Punk.

I could've sworn that I've read that it was supposed to take place in a different decade, but smartphones are already available?

[quote]I could've sworn that I've read that it was supposed to take place in a different decade, but smartphones are already available?

Are you confusing this with his other HBO series? IIRC, the director also has yet another series out in addition to this one. That would be three series. I think his series about the two Italian girls has ended.

The director is one note.

R39 I thought exactly the same thing, glad to know I'm not going mad. R40 what other series? Neither his wiki nor his IDMB mention any other TV series aside from this one.

It was going to take place in the 80s. I guess that got scraped

I wonder if the military refusing to let them use the military base meant an increase in production costs and to offset that they had to drop the 80s element.

Actually let's all take a moment to reflect on the stupidity on everyone involved in the pre-production of this that they actually thought the military would agree to cooperate on this show with a storyline of a solider falling for a 15 year old.

Another boring hour except this time no dicks

Any labias?

r46 No, but menstrual blood

Vagina capes?

I kind of liked the first episode. That kid in those fucking ugly short...I can't unsee that. Chloe is really bringing the butch..I like it.

R36 is that good?

Having served in the military (overseas too), I seriously doubt filming on a military post was ever an option. While the Pentagon provides advisors and allows service members to serve as extras, filming on a military base is a no-go.

I haven't watched because I usually can't stand coming of age stories. I hope the comment about a soldier falling for the 14 year old protagonist is just a joke. Is the director that obsessed with the idea of fucking young teenagers?

Thanks, R36. Those ratings are not good.

R40, you're thinking of My Brilliant Friend, the series based on Elena Ferrante's novels. Luca Guadagnino isn't connected to that show.

R51 Variety reported:

[quote]Production was meant to start earlier but ran into a snag when the U.S. Defense Department refused permission to shoot at the Caserma Ederle U.S. military base in Vicenza, northern Italy, after reading the script, sources said. That forced shooting to relocate to a former center for migrants in Padua, which has become a stand-in for the U.S. army base.

Not saying you're wrong, it's entirely possible it was never going to happen and the script being the problem is just a story made up by the source. However it causing a production delay suggests that the producers, at least, thought they'd be filming on the base.

And yes, it rather seems he is obsessed with it. I'm genuinely dreading his Lord of the Flies because of it.

For comparison, the first episode of The Third Day, which precedes We Are Who We Are on Monday nights, garnered 207,000 viewers to WAWWA's 117,000. HBO's Lovecraft Country is averaging 750,000 viewers. HBO's Perry Mason averaged 937,000 viewers.

These are all first-night ratings -- no streaming, etc.

R54 lovecraft and perry mason are Sunday night shows while the third day and the show is Monday night. Sunday ones generally gets more viewers. Also those other three are clearly targeting an older, cable viewing demographic while this show is targeting younger streaming audiences. Not saying the television viewing numbers weren't low, but it needs some context.

If I remember correctly Euphoria's first season, also an HBO show, did pretty great (word-of-mouth) and back then it was considered a big gamble since HBO isn't know to be a youth demographic magnet. And just yesterday Zendaya won an award for her leading role on Euphoria.

So far I like We Are Who We Are.

Euphoria averaged 560,000 viewers in its first run -- but when all the streaming and replay numbers were factored in, viewership was 10x that: 5.6 million.

In comparison, according to Hollywood Reporter, Big Little Lies' multiplatform audience of 10 million for season two was about 6x bigger than the initial tune-in; Game of Thrones (which had a much higher starting point of 12 million linear viewers) grew by a factor of about 3.7 for its final season; and Barry tripled its initial audience.

Um, people want fantasy or unrealistic fabulousness (GOT, BLL). Who wants to see a bunch of angsty teenagers acting like assholes when you can easily find that in real life?

I started watching Euphoria to see the Jacob Elordi naked, but I liked that it didn't focus on the typical teen BS.

The Jacob Elordi? Is that like The AIDS and The Cancer?

So am I to glean from this thread that the 15 yr old kid falls for the soldier who was naked in the shower and they have an affair? I hope this makes the kid grow up. He needs to be slapped, hard.

Someone needs to tell Luca there are adult gay men who pursue sexual encounters with other adult gay men.

R60 Nope.

[quote]Ass slap!

What is Luca's deal with these age gaps? Why couldn't the kid just get a boyfriend his own age?

I just watched the first episode and think that even if the 14 year old has a crush, it doesn't mean the older guy will return those feelings (at least without consequences).

The older Russian sounding soldier is a major/O-4. In real life the absolute quickest someone would make that rank is in 7-8 years. While the actor is 27, there are no 27 year old majors! The youngest you'd find would be 29...so if a romance is on the horizon, it would fall solidly in sexual predator territory (unlike CMBYN, which involved a 16 year old and a 25 year old).

r64 Luca must have conceived the soldier as a much older character.

Gay people often don't get to explore same age same sex dalliances like straight people do. It's not at all uncommon for young gay men to have their first sexual experience with someone much older. The fact of that doesn't make it "right" but...

Another film about young twinks and an older man. Beginning to think maybe the director plays to the barely legal/dirty old man crowd with a patina of artsiness.

Of course, I’ve seen many Italian movies with older, ugly men chasing young busty women. Maybe this is just Italian cinema.

Its described as an *innocent* romantic connection.

Its clear Fraser will have a crush on an older soldier, which is fine, but they don't actually fuck.

R68 is right. As a former military officer I know for a fact an officer wouldn't try to fuck the garrison commander's 14 year old son...especially if they know who his mother is. I've heard of young enlisted members dating dependents of senior leaders who are around their age (18, 19), but even that's rare.

Second episode did 90,000 viewers.

Folks, you need to remember that the age of consent is much lower in Italy than it is in the States. It probably is 14 or 15. So get your panties in a twist if you want, but I don't think this is an illegal situation.

[quote]Second episode did 90,000 viewers.

Not enough to make it into the top 150 shows on cable TV Monday.

They must have known this type of show would have a small following. My husband disliked it rather intensely and I'm going to have to watch the rest on my own. That kid is so annoying. I hope it gets better.

The show is very peculiar and I very much doubt HBO had any expectations it gets high ratings. It will do well with hard core art house crowd on digital and streaming.

I thought the first episode was really neat. I like the director's loose style and he captured something essential about how tough it can be to raise children. And it was very suspenseful--I didn't know what was going to happen next! Credit to his style and camera work. And long takes!

R71, it doesn't matter what the age of consent is in Italy. People in the military are bound to the Uniformed Code of Military Justice, which means screwing someone under 18 would be punished.

Regardless, it's Rizzoli & Isles is pulling in better ratings. 99K viewers? I'm willing to bet HBO will dump the remaining episodes online after the 3rd episode.

I'm sure focusing the entire 1st episode on an unlikable protagonist seemed like a good idea, but hopefully he's killed off early on and the show shifts focus to more tolerable characters.

Worth pointing out this is a limited series one off, so its not meant to have another season. The ratings don't particularly matter.

Watched two episodes of The Third Day, the Jude Law series, it's only three episode series. This series seems to be going The Wicker Man route, I could be wrong. Jude's character is stuck in some town with a bunch of weirdoes. Some of the freaky townspeople seem to be threatening him, one alluded to 'a sacrifice'.

Most of HBO's new series are quite bad. I tried to get into Lovecraft Country, there was too much supernatural bullshit in it.

Lovecraft Country is amazing.

And as for "supernatural bullshit", wtf did you expect from a LOVECRAFT story?

Are you stupid?

Well I for one have no idea what a LOVECRAFT story is (not r78)

Is "Lovercraft" a well known brand? I've never heard of it.

The thing is sexual relationships of any kind is gross when it involves a 14 year old. When the 14 year old is played in an offensive way and by a horrible,unattractive actor, it makes it more unbearable. Who would commit to that kind of torture. JDG was a cute kid but he's aging like milk and he's not even 18 yet. That god awful hair. I'm shocked 100k people cared to watch this. At least Elio was played by beautiful Timothee Chalamet and was gorgeous cinematography.

Luca needs to stop with hiring the nepotism brats. He even hired that fat fug Scorcese spawn.

JDG has said he really had to act in this show, but so far he just seems to be playing his douchebag self.

[quote]JDG was a cute kid but he's aging like milk

It's really surprising just how quickly that happened. He must have some British genes.

This pic is Reichard?

Reichard doesn't have large nips.

Wrong thread R85, but yes.

r84 No just the Grazer family genes. He is going his uncles way

R88 Yikes, a little warning next time!

Who is the uncle?

R90, Brian Glazer is a producer who co-founded and owns Imagine Entertainment with Ron Howard. He's easily worth hundreds of millions of dollars...enough to buy his fugly, untalented nephew roles.

Thanks. Is he the guy beyond "Finding Prince Charming"?

R80, did you grow up under a rock? Did you never go to school? You have no idea who Lovecraft is, what the word "Lovecraftian" means? Never heard of Cthulhu?

Man, the education system in this country is a disaster.

[Quote] You have no idea who Lovecraft is, what the word "Lovecraftian" means? Never heard of Cthulhu?

[Quote] Man, the education system in this country is a disaster.

You're on the internet, dear. It's not a country.

r93, you seem unbalanced. Always denigrating other people because they don't know some bit of information that you know. Seek help.

Apart from the guy showing dong in the shower almost everyone in this show is either average or just plain ugly. Usually HBO shows filled with somewhat attractive people.

I heard Timothee has a cameo in this show.

R97 I understand it's a scene where he stands next to JDG and a directors note flashes at the bottom of the screen saying "can you guess what my type is?"

Chloe was surprisingly dumpy in her nude scene

Were you expecting breast implants and vag rejuvenation?

No, but I wasn't expecting a prominent FUPA. Appropriately enough, she resembled a Botticelli painting.

Does Jack have a natural bush?

r102 Hopefully we'll find out in the next episode.

R103 promises of teenage nudity is the selling point for sitting through this slog? Why bother when you can just download the pics the next day?

[quote]No, but I wasn't expecting a prominent FUPA. Appropriately enough, she resembled a Botticelli painting.

She was pregnant while shooting but not that far along for her to have the body she did.

R95, you seem unbalanced. Always defending and coddling inexcusable ignorance (as well as inability to use Google). Seek help.

No, seriously, r106. You're sick. Please, seek help.

No, seriously, it's not a bad thing to expect people to not be completely and willfully ignorant idiots.

I guess, unless you're a Trump supporter. They worship willful ignorance and stupidity in that crowd.

Seriously, how the FUCK have you lived a life and NEVER heard of Lovecraft? Do you EVER crack open a book? Did you EVER go to school?

I am a professor at a highly respected University. And you are not only a pretentious idiot, you're a mean-spirited creep. GET HELP.

No, I'm just annoyed -- and rightly so -- by willful ignorance and clueless stupidity.

If you're NOT, you're part of the problem.

You think someone is "willfully ignorant" and "cluelessly stupid" because they haven't heard of these goddam Lovecraft books? It's you who is the idiot.

(rolling eyes). Yes. Ignorant, and willfully so. Illiterate. Lovecraft an Lovecraftian creations like Cthulhu are WIDLY known and referenced, and there's thing called GOOGLE that can educate you if you actually cared and weren't WILLFULLY ignorant. Only a stupid illiterate moron has never heard of them.

Do shut up, dear.

How soon before JDG comes out?

r114 Honestly. I think Wyatt and Jaeden are gayer.

Wyatt seems unbearable

r116 The Heart wants what it wants. But honestly Jaedend's mullet is the most offensive thing in this.

[quote]Seriously, how the FUCK have you lived a life and NEVER heard of Lovecraft? Do you EVER crack open a book? Did you EVER go to school?

I'm not the person you're arguing with, but I don't recall HP Lovecraft being taught in school. You're hilarious. I could understand if you took some course in college about very specific types of writers, Lovecraft might be on that list, yet he wasn't the typical writer most high school kids had on their lists of required reading. I attended an art high school and was into some weird authors, but I don't recall any HP Lovecraft books being part of the curriculum. In high school, I recall reading Arthur Miller's The Crucible, Richard Wright's Native Son, Jack London's The Call of the Wild, lots of Shakespeare, definitely no Lovecraft books.

HP Lovecraft is like the J.R.R. Tolkien of the horror genre. Nobody HAS to know about him, but it doesn't exactly make you the most well-read, or most knowledgeable, person in the room if the name Lovecraft doesn't ring a bell.

Once upon a time people knew their limits and didn't make a bid deal about not knowing something. Nowadays people get so defensive about their lack of knowledge and act like it's everybody else's fault for being elitists or nerdy know-it-alls. You know, deplorable anti-intellectualism trying to stifle any discussion or take over any venue of open discussion.

It's actually the person who claims EVERYONE knows about Lovecraft who is being defensive. Plenty of people know nothing about the "horror genre" because it doesn't interest them. And there's nothing wrong with that.

The book Fraser was reading from in episode one, before he called Mark (a boy back home in New York I'm guessing?) to tell him he loves him, is [italic]The Wild Boys: A Book of the Dead[italic] by William S. Burroughs - it depicts a homosexual youth movement whose objective is the downfall of western civilization, set in an apocalyptic late twentieth century.

The line he reads out loud is “He is naked except for a rainbow-colored jockstrap and sandals”

Does this kid become any more likable?

[quote]Episode 1: When Sarah Wilson is named the new commander of a difficult military unit in Chioggia, Italy, she uproots her wife Maggie and teenage son Fraser from their lives in New York City to start a new chapter in this unfamiliar seaside town. While Sarah contends with her new position and Maggie resumes her work at the army's clinic, Fraser longs for Mark, a friend he left behind in New York, and seems uninterested in connecting with the other teenagers on base - until he meets Caitlin.

[quote]Episode 2: The arrival of Caitlin’s period accelerates her secret desire to experiment with her gender expression – and to flirt with girls, test boundaries with her boyfriend Sam, and spar with her father Richard. As she and her brother Danny continue to clash with their mother Jenny, Caitlin’s relationships with her both her dad and Danny’s best friend Craig deepen. Later, Fraser discovers Caitlin’s secret, which forever changes the nature of their relationship.

[quote]Episode 3: A fracture begins to form within the friend group following Caitlin and Sam’s breakup. While Sam turns to the open arms of Britney, Caitlin is judged for spending more time with Fraser. Later, Maggie attends the Chioggia Festival with the neighborhood women and finds an unexpected companion in Jenny. Meanwhile, the progress Colonel Wilson has made in her new role is derailed when she decides to deploy her troops early – and her complex relationship with Fraser is rattled when his crush becomes her only ally.

[quote]Episode 4: With his deployment timeline fast-tracked, Craig spontaneously proposes to his Italian girlfriend, Valentina. Determined to ship him off with a celebration he'll never forget, his friends pool their resources for a Hawaiian-themed wedding that leads to an evening of debauchery.

[quote]Episode 5: As the power struggle between Sarah and Richard escalates, the relationship between their wives continues to grow, and Sarah fuels the fire by spending time with Caitlin on the base's virtual shooting range. Later, Caitlin asks Fraser for help making a bold statement; Danny questions Jenny about his biological father as he dives deeper into Islam; and Fraser forms his own connection with Jonathan.

[quote]Episode 6: Sarah is thrilled to learn about her son's burgeoning friendship with Jonathan and, grateful for a strong male influence in Fraser's life, encourages them to spend more time together--even if Maggie doesn't understand. Richard uses a father-daughter hunting trip to get inside Caitlin's head. Later, Sarah receives a phone call that will forever alter life on base.

[quote]Episode 7: The friend group fractures even further over their hatred for Colonel Wilson, whom they blame for a tragedy that's rocked the base. As Caitlin momentarily pauses her self-discovery journey and Danny fully commits to his, Richard's insubordination reaches a breaking point, forcing Wilson to make a difficult decision.

[quote]Episode 8: In honor of her last day in Italy, Caitlin and Fraser sneak off to catch a concert in Bologna. Along the way, Fraser finally feels comfortable admitting a shocking secret about Mark and finds a new friend in Luca before he and Caitlin spend their final moments together in the most beautiful place on earth.

[quote] It's actually the person who claims EVERYONE knows about Lovecraft who is being defensive. Plenty of people know nothing about the "horror genre" because it doesn't interest them. And there's nothing wrong with that.

I would call that very defensive.

[quote] You think someone is "willfully ignorant" and "cluelessly stupid" because they haven't heard of these goddam Lovecraft books? [bold] It's you who is the idiot. [/bold]

R123 So barely any mentions of the gay storyline which was going to be so central. Mind you, given the nature of it, I'm quite relieved.

[quote] and finds a new friend in Luca

Does he now.

r124 and yet it's YOU who KEEPS bringing it up.

r127. Again, so defensive. It's everybody's else fault, right? No need to be smart when smart is bad, right?

Girls, girls, you're both annoying cunts.

I definitely agree that r128 is an annoying cunt. She just won't shut up.

r130. Pot meet kettle.

The nude scene in HD:

While I certainly understand teenage angst and ennui and having little actual control over your own life, I don't think I've ever wanted to punch a fictional kid so much as Fraser. I cannot even imagine what would have happened had I slapped my own mother. She certainly wouldn't have hugged me.

Anyone know what Caitlin's dad is selling in those tanks and why?

It seems strange that the child of a military officer would be completely without boundaries.

I wish those two queens would stop bickering about Lovecraft.

I agree. Shut up, r131.

ignoring r136 and his various IDs from now on. Promise.

Tom Mercier is front naked during half of Synonyms the most no homo French film I've seen in ages. I'll download illegally this crap even though I pay for HBO. Hate this self loathing director, but we'll see.

This is basically yet another cable show about a bunch of navel gazers. Hard pass.

If anyone is planning on watching this for eye candy, you can pass on that too. There are lots of unattractive annoying characters.

I'm just like, "what?!" after episode 1. The reviews are actually pretty good, so I thought I would give it a shot. Euphoria took me a couple of episodes to get into, but I'm glad I stuck with it. This, I don't know. I love the escapism of Italy, love Chloe Sevigny, and some of the music, but I am not sure what is going on after episode 1. I really don't care for the lead at al - does he get more charismatic?. I'll check episode 2 out, but it might be one of those I just am not connecting with. I like and can relate more to the kids in Euphoria.

Does Euphoria has any gay content? By gay I mean gay male, don't care for lesbians, much less about trans women.

Well, you see Jacob Elordi's scrumptious naked body from behind. That's about it for gay male content I think.

R141 - Euphoria has a lot of what gen z would say "queer content", but I would say gay in man on man, at least for now. The lead male and his father are both fucking the trans girls, so it's gay adjacent. Their is also a weird homoerotic element between said father-son. The performance are good by the whole cast.

So no gay content. I have better things to do than watch a father and son fight for the fabricated pussy of a gay boy.

[quote] Does Euphoria has any gay content?

If that is your only criteria to watch a show then no, Euphoria's first season has no explicit gay content as in gay character or gay storyline. However, it's still an amazing show with lots and lots of well done teen angst drama.

It's not my only criteria, but an important one. With more than 500 scripted shows to choose from, why would I waste my precious time with shows that don't represent me? I'd make an exception for high concept ideas, but generic drivel I can do without. I have Euphoria in the background as I write this and it's as generic as you can get.

I guess middle aged fraus from red states might find this daring and different, but it's just fluff with annoying characters.

As someone wrote online, Euphoria is a poor man's Skam, a Norwegian series way more interesting than this and with actual gay characters.

R146, every show you watch features gay characters? I like representation also, but that seems limiting.

r146. You sound tedious. Bye.

Before watching "Euphoria," I refused to get on the Zendaya hype train and considered the show a hard pass. However, I listened to a pop culture podcast that mentioned all the dicks and Jacob Elordi's sexually confused character, so I couldn't resist.

Talk about a bait and switch. Even though his character's girlfriend looks through his phone and finds a bunch of dick pics, he's never revealed to be gay or anything.

I watch shows with interesting premises and those with gay characters. Again, why would I waste my time with drivel with no representation if I can watch drivel with representation?

Bye R148

Eric Dane's character in Euphoria is pretty much a gay character. He pretends to be straight but in reality he is attracted to twinky boys and trans girls.

Stupid show.

Elordi's character on Euphoria is a manipulative sociopath. He beats up a guy and then prances around naked in front of him.

I believe it's alluded that he collected some dick pics to find the right ones he'd use to catfish Jules, his father's underage trans mistress.

HBO teen shows are quite edgy / pushing the boundaries and artsy when you compare them to whatever CW offers.

I'm excited about the HBO Gossip Girl. It's supposed to lean in heavy into gay characters, the world it is set will be fun and familiar, and they can crank it up b/c it's on HBO. I hope they go all in the WAWWA and Euphoria.

"Gossip Girl" was Dan. What more will a new show add?

Isn't Gossip Girl about a catty gossiper who turns out to be a catty gay guy? Is that what we're expecting from this unnecessary HBO reboot?

It says so much about this show that this thread keeps switching to talking about other HBO shows

Eight years after the conclusion of the original series, a new cast of Manhattan private schoolers take the lead under the watchful eye of Gossip Girl, while demonstrating how much social media – and the landscape of New York City itself – has changed in the intervening years. Gossip Girl is slated to feature more adult content than the original on The CW, owing to the relaxed standards of the HBO Max streaming service. The series is also slated to be more diverse, with nonwhite leads and LGBT characters.[1]

In regard to continuity, executive producer and showrunner Joshua Safran stated that it is officially in the same continuity of the original Gossip Girl series. However, rather than a direct continuation of the story, it is instead set in the same world where previous characters existed and can be freely referenced and potentially reappear, but stars a different set of characters from a different point of view. Safran likened this to a shared universe, akin to that of the Marvel Universe

Ah so it's HBO Max? So dumb of AT&T to dilute the HBO brand like that, now stuff like this is going to be seen as an HBO show

I'm going in for episode 2 tonight. It's the make or break.

I wonder which cast members from the original show are desperate enough to accept recurring roles on the reboot. My money is on accused rapist Ed Westwick and alleged drug addict Taylor Momsen.

[quote]I'm going in for episode 2 tonight. It's the make or break.

You should give it until episode 3 because episode 2 is the same as the first episode, except told from the girl's point of view.

Apparently, beginning with episode 3, it settles into a more conventional ensemble show rhythm, rather than the same day/different points of view of the first two episodes.

Episode 4 is a BIGGIE and improves a lot from there on.

It did make me laugh they all seem to be able to just wander in and out of an army base whenever they please.

THIN SLICES!

Again we see Fraser being physically abusive to his mom. I feel like Luca wants us to just see it as "eccentric", but its pretty fucked up and the guy seems desperately in need of anger management classes. That's ignoring the fact that he is also a raging alcoholic.

At least this episode was dynamic to watch though, best one so far I thought.

So Jonathan is into the mom? Who is Mark?

That anxiety attack was strange, Fraser turned into a baby.

Mark was referenced in the pilot. Some friend Fraser had back home before they moved.

Was there any nudity? That's the only reason I'm going to bother downloading it.

Really enjoyed the latest episode and am finding it intriguing. Fraser remains as fucking annoying as ever.

R168 Luca has strange ideas about what normal is. This was never going to be popular.

Fraser is supposed to be autistic, no?

Teen angst is never about being normal. It's about being as angsty and broody as possible.

R175 No 'normal' 14 year old, no matter how angsty, behaves like Fraser.

Why can't these people act like real people ? . No way a female Colonel who just took over the base would dance like that with one of her officers.

Exactly, R177!

This show gets military life 99.9% wrong...it's so lazy in that regard. For example, I've been to dozens of change of command ceremonies. While it isn't uncommon for buttoned up military officers to have kids who look and carry themselves like Fraser, they would never, ever, ever stay seated and sulk while the national anthem is playing. Also, Chloe's character is a dismissive cunt to everyone helping to in-process her and her family. Someone in her position in real life would try to pretend to care about everyone they meet.

From what I've read, the worst is yet to come. Chloe is playing a garrison commander, yet she supposedly makes a decision to deploy troops. In real life, a garrison commander is focused solely on maintaining operations on their installation. They're like a mayor....and a mayor can't deploy troops.

R178 To be fair, it's not a documentary.

R179 Ugh, how I hate that defence for poor research and writing. Artistic licence isn't a reason to get basics wrong. It's just laziness.

R180 Much like CMBYN, the whole thing is a fantasy. It exists in a perfect dream-like world. If you're expecting gritty realism, you're watching the wrong programme.

I've downloaded this shit already. CMBYN was terrible I'm planning on watching this solely for the diversity factor. It looks bad and I'm sure it will be.

I'm sure we'll see plenty of straight sex and pda and lots of doors and windows when gays get it on. Well see.

R181 CMBYN got away with that because it happened in isolation at the villa. You can't do that on a military base. You have to make some effort at realism.

R183 They have made a point of it not being realistic. On his first day in this strange country on this strange military base, the odd 14 year old child, who was given vodka by his army commander mother at the airport, walks into a shower building with hot soldiers in. He walks on and off the base without being stopped or questioned. He's a 14 year old getting blackout drunk and his medically-trained 'mother' just laughs it off and promises not to tell his mother.

It's not some kitchen sink drama. It's silly and strange and very obviously not real life.

Was there any skin in this episode? And I mean male skin!

[quote]You can't do that on a military base. You have to make some effort at realism.

This. You can't do the whole unrealistic utopian fantasy thing when you're dealing with a US military base, where things are done in very specific ways and a very particular culture exists. It doesn't work.

Why make it a military base? Can't these people just be expats working for some corporation? How hard could that be?

You could make quite a good story about a military brat dealing with the fact they're not straight. Constant moving around leading to difficulty making friends, macho culture, expectations of your future, dealing with the discipline. Handwaving these away with "It's not some kitchen sink drama. It's silly and strange and very obviously not real life" isn't good storytelling.

R187 A very good question. You really have to wonder why they went with the military, when that throws up so many issues both in terms of content and also production.

The only good thing is they had to drop the 80s element. Imagine if they were actually trying to do all this with all the current flaws and also add it being during the 80s?

I guess at the end of the day, most people have neither served in the military nor experienced the life of a military brat. The errors that are glaring to some will be overlooked by many...and even well-crafted stories about the military get things wrong.

Maybe someone smarter than me can explain how the military factors into the main story. The military tells people what they are, while the kids are trying to figure out if they're gay, transgender, Islamic extremists...I don't know. It's confusing.

Wait was this intended to take place in the 80s?

It was originally set to take place at a time when LG was supposedly hanging out with American kids (the 1980s), but for some reason was brought up to 2016. Not that it makes it any more plausible.

It takes place in the months leading up to the 2016 election

Presumably the high ranking lesbians meant they couldn't set it in the 80s. Though frankly I wouldn't have put it past Luca to try.

I haven't yet posted in this thread. I'm loving the show. Much more interesting than most of the dreck on tv right now.

And for that person who didn't know Lovecraft . . . that's just fucking appalling.

Get over yourselves, Lovecraft fanatics.

[quote]Fraser is supposed to be autistic, no?

He acts as if he rides on the shortbus. He's ridiculous.

Lovecraft is shit and the majority of the population couldn't care less about it .

The actor playing the hot soldier needs to come to Hollywood. <3 What a man.

Poor Fraser. He thinks he’s got this hot, hung soldier for himself and his lesbian mom is all over him.

Ironic that Fraser is perhaps the only military child who isn’t beaten but needs to be.

Jack does have charisma, though. The show is most interesting when he’s onscreen.

[quote]Jack does have charisma, though. The show is most interesting when he’s onscreen.

Yes. I don't find him attractive and the character is annoying, but there's something about him that holds the screen.

From the trailer.

So the soldier will have a threesome with the lesbian colonel's 14-year old son?

What's the deal with the skeezy teenager (christ he's hideous but I'm sure we'll love him by the end) beating on his mom (Chloe Sevigny)? He's done it twice now and she just blows it off.

What caused Fraser's panic/anxiety attack in the middle of the night? It seemed painful and he became almost infantile with his "mommy, mommy" and sleeping next to her, being held in her arms.

So we have a gay boy with major mommy issues?

Part of Fraser's anger towards his mother is because he doesn't have a father.

Grazer: I want to talk about this. So, part of the reason that his relationship with his mom is so demented is because he resents her, and he holds her accountable for the absence of a father. And he doesn't even know if he really wants one, but he wants to experience it. He wants to experience everything. Because he doesn't like her, so Fraser's like, "He's probably better." And he doesn't like her because she keeps tearing him from his home and putting him in places he doesn't want to be

R201 No, Francesca Scorsese has confirmed that they just dance. A critic that has seen all of the episodes also said there's no relationship between Fraser and the older guy.

Prediction: Jack will win an Oscar before Timmy.

R206 I very much doubt that.

[quote]heard Timothee has a cameo in this show. He was in this week's episode. I would not have noticed if it wasn't pointed out. You can barely make him out but he walked past the window as Kid Cudi ironed.

I've just finished the three episodes available. I thought I would hate it but I kind of enjoyed it in a sort of voyeuristic way. I have no clue how realistic is the military base situation but I do think it adds a flavor to this otherwise boring show.

Main character is weird and uninteresting, I was actually drawn more by the trans subplot that's being cocked and the relationship between Alice Braga's character and the Nigerian lady. BTW if Alice's character is Brazilian why is she speaking in english with her father on the phone? Did I miss something?

There's no character development to anyone really so are we supposed to feel sorry for that annoying brother who wants to jump off the bridge? How about that black dude who's too old to be hanging around teens? Maga dad being an asshole is kind of predictable isn't it? Father and son are so unidimensional and uninteresting I keep asking myself what's the point of them being in this show at all? Why set this against the 2016 elections? So many questions.

In true Luca Guadagnino's fashion, so far we have a so-called LGBTQ show where we saw predominantly straight people kissing and having a romantic life. I guess I shouldn't be surprised given who's helming this.

I'll keep watching, now that kid beating his mother is completely out of character and of course, we wouldn't expect any less than a homophobic explanation for this kid's behavior, oh he doesn't have a dad so he has issues. 🙄. Luca is the type of gay conservatives love, he does all their work pretty well.

I'll keep watching.

THIN SLICES!

In all fairness, who amongst us hasn’t wanted to smack Chloe Sevigny. I suspect some of you wish you could do it right now.

[quote]Luca is the type of gay conservatives love, he does all their work pretty well.

Right? He described fighting for equal marriage as being militant. He just seems to drip with self-loathing.

That's the case with a lot of Italian gays. They seem out and proud, and then they turn around and drop the most regressive shit. Remember Dolce & Gabbana's thing about 'the only family is the traditional one'? Or their support for Melania Trump? Or going back even further, look at what a right-winger Franco Zeffirelli was.

The ratings keep dropping, by the way. Yes, it's a limited series but I'm sure they were hoping for ratings good enough to justify another round, like Big Little Lies. They aren't holding on to the viewers they had and aren't gaining new ones either.

I doubt Luca would want to do another season considering it takes longer than making a movie and he has about 1000 movies planned as it is.

Big Little Lies had big movie stars and was not anywhere near this slow paced. They knew what they were getting in for.

Fraser having a Last Tango in Paris poster by his bed is so random.

R215 Luca is a fan of Directors accused of sexual assault.

Luca has major creepy vibes and I'm not even addressing the pedo fantasies he has. He gives me bad vibes all the way. It pisses me off this self-hating fag has gotten so much attention.

François Ozon is a much better director and could use some Hollywood exposure and he is actually comfortable being gay and writing gay stories.

[quote] With his deployment fast-tracked, Craig spontaneously proposes to his Italian girlfriend, Valentina Determined to ship him off with a celebration he'll never forget, his friends pool their resources for a Hawaiian-themed wedding.

This is the logline for the next episode. Let's not forget this is a celebrated "LGBTQ" teen show. We're half way in and all we saw was straight kids doing what they do in 99% of every other show. BTW who the fuck is Craig and why should we care?

Craig must be one of the black guys.

Is anyone else getting the feeling one of them is going to become a terrorist (the one showing interest in Islam)?

I'm just picturing Valentina's Italian probably Catholic parents being presented with a "Hawaian-themed wedding".

So Fraser's storyline romance-wise will essentially be him pining for/flirting with the hot soldier (which will go nowhere), until the final episode where he befriends a boy named "Luca" (R123). What could the [italic]shocking secret[/italic] about Mark be?

[quote]Episode 8: In honor of her last day in Italy, Caitlin and Fraser sneak off to catch a concert in Bologna. Along the way, Fraser finally feels comfortable admitting a shocking secret about Mark and finds a new friend in Luca before he and Caitlin spend their final moments together in the most beautiful place on earth.

In episode three, when Chloe was dancing seductively with the soldier, what was that about? He's a subordinate, she's gay, and she's all over him and looks at her son like "is this making you jealous?" What was going on there?

[quote] until the final episode where he befriends a boy named "Luca"

r221 Boy or 49 year old director. Potato, potahto

Imagine being so self-loathing that your coming of age gay story focus on all the other straights in your life but yours. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a Luca Guadagnino show works this way.

*focuses on

Apparently Arm & Hammer has a cameo as well. Haven't seen him yet.

r226 Maybe Luca is planning to merge season 2 of WAWWA with the CMBYN universe.

R227 there will be no season 2. Have you seen the ratings?

season two was never planned. its a limited series.

r228 Even ignoring that. Wouldn't the characters in CMBYN be in their 50s by 2016? I'm not sure creepy elder gays hanging round a 14 year old is a crossover we need.

R217 He does seem like a Me Too case waiting to happen. Like miscasting Armie Hammer just because Luca "desired" him.

Will Luca be doing Lord of the Flies for HBO?

R232, yes, with a new title: Sandy Dongs.

That looked like peach pie at the end of episode 3. Nod to CMBYN?

r230 Since Luca is doing the sequel with Timothee and Armie (which is a perfect chance for them to hide their relationship in plain sight again!) its a good way to expand the CMBYN universe and hold onto both fanbases!

It's intensely boring.

What did Fraser even mean when said “it felt weird when your brother hit me” ?

R237 He meant it turned him on.

A gif of that part R237:

that black guy is super hot

I made it through episode 3 and I hove more questions than answers. The problem is that there is really no character development for anyone. I find Fraser so irritating and his actions to me don't make sense. I keep waiting for something to happen and have some sort of meaning like his weird relationship with his mom - the hitting, the getting into bed to snuggle with her in just his underwear as a 14 year old. Eww,

Well, that episode was a snooze.

That guy who got married had an amazing body but WTF. They can't even party like real people.

How much (male) skin was there in this episode?

R244 Lots. The friends party at this out. First they go swimming and the Italian guy and one black guy go full frontal from a distance. Later, you see the Italian guy walking around fully nude. You see the main girls brother's ass fucking a girl on the couch and briefly while dancing. Finally you see the black guy who got married in bed. He gets up and you see his large dick and fine ass

^ sorry, party at this "house"

And you can almost see a peekaboo of Jack Dylan too, the kid is hairy!

This should save people a download

I thought there was going to be a lot of gay content in this. All I see is het stuff. :(

I had high hopes for this show and it’s just not delivering after the decent pilot. When a party with male nudity is boring you know you’ve got problems.

Ugh! This show is so frustrating. I'm OK with beauty shots if the cast and location are gorgeous, which I find overall that this has neither. I love these types of bizarre shows, but I'm starting to feel like what's the point. The skin episode felt like it was all leading up to the pay off of that guys bbc. The families and the dynamics with them are way more interesting than the children. I really want to like this.

This is a disaster and Guadagnino is so repulsive with his obsession with male adolescent bodies . Ugh.

I feel you R252. I keep comparing this to Euphoria in terms on the Gen Z/shock value approach. That at least had plot. This offers very little substance or nuance. I don't care about any of the characters and it's obvious the writers are keeping it literal in that it is what it is. I keep watching hoping there is more.

Euphoria was a freakin' work of art though. That carnival episode was gorgeous. There are actual characters you care about.

Don't compare it to this.

Euphoria was far more interesting, much better written.

I get it R254. It was a fantastic show. I felt like the lighting and way the part scene in this episode was going for a Euphoria/Kids vibe.

i am also finding the parents more compelling so far.

Fraser’s puny cocklet was intimidated by all the BBC on display.

The rating are really low now. 60k. This must be shit. They've lost half the viewers.

Luca's style has never been one for mass audiences, nor has he tried to make it so. No idea why this obsession with the ratings for a limited series. The reviews are good, that's what really matters.

R260 what does HBO want though? Good reviews or new subscribers?

R261 It doesn't matter what HBO want. It's a limited series that has already been made and is halfway through airing.

CMBYN is the only one of Luca's projects to make money and yet he still gets attached to about 10 movies a year. He's an arthouse auteur, not Ryan Murphy or the Russo brothers.

Is anyone still reviewing this? The only reviews I can see for the later episodes are from the AVClub. Other than that critics seem to have only looked at the episodes they saw in preview.

Critics saw the same 4 episodes we have seen so far. I know other people were sent screeners for the other episodes too but whether they'll write about it I don't know.

The reaction on Letterboxd has also been very positive.

So I finally watched episode 4 - I mean, technically, I was rolling my eyes a lot. I didn't need to see JDG's dick flopping around in his boxers like he was some TikTokker, nor the hint of something up the leg of his boxers. I can't understand why that was even shot, much less made it to air. And it increases my nervousness about Luca doing Lord of the Flies, he's clearly a pervert.

R266, he looked quite small. Still growing?

R267 The only correct response to your post is: Ew.

As if Lord of the Flies will even happen. The one he seems to be talking about the most in interviews is the is the Scotty Bowers movie.

r264 vulture also does weekly recaps, and vanity fair has a podcast that does hour-long review of this show every week

Who watched last weeks episode of this "queer" show? There was practically an orgy and the only one not having sex was the gay one, of course. Truth be told, the fat one (daughter of Marty Scorcese) didn't get no dick either. Can't wait for the torrent to drop so I can check out this unique series on the sex lives of straight teens, like we never seen before....

Sometimes gay directors are the ones most afraid of showing gay sex on tv

I'm actually glad I decided not to watch this.

I'm waiting for the torrent to check out today's episode, apparently this queer show will focus on the annoying black kid and his conversion to Islam, can't wait. I bet the gay kid exchanges another look with the soldier guy, beats one of his moms and then jerks off to the trans women he's obsessed with on Instagram.

Don't worry we still have 3 episodes to go. By the 8th I bet they kiss before credits roll.

r274 I've seen it. Just before their lips touch the camera drifts over to an open window, with a light breeze blowing the curtains.

A few minutes later there's a full-on het sex scene with Scorsese's daughter.

What happen to the hot naked guy in the shower on the first episode? Will he show dong again?

I don't care about or like anyone in this show.

Is that the point?

[quote]Sometimes gay directors are the ones most afraid of showing gay sex on tv

Luca seems like the type to describe himself as a man who has sex with men rather than gay.

It amuses me how many of the CMBYN fanbase are clamouring for the sequel, thinking it will deliver more of Oliver and Elio together.

This weekend I saw the Netflix Boys in the Band, and all four episodes of WAWWA. I enjoyed both. There is a way to think of the contrast of the two as the evolving understanding of queerness. Boys plays much better now than the 1970 Friedkin movie. It captures a subculture of gay men in NYC before gay lib, before AIDS. It is quaint and stagey, literally a view into life in another century. Theatrical and "performed"....

WAWWA represents a kind of expanded queerness - clearly that annoys "gay" identity, that was fought for so strongly. Older DL folk (and the younger DL folk who identify with the

As a piece of cinema - WAWWA is beautiful. The camera angles, the editing, the quirky musical choices (Neil Fucking Young Living With War as the fade out in episode four? Wild horses? Italian rap? Serious post-modern classical compositions?). The acting that seems lost. The pace that is both languorous and anxious. The art direction that relentlessly beautiful/ugly - the Russian villa without Russians - hard, souless surfaces - a void of style.

This isn't your mom and dad's queerness.

New Yorker review of it worth reading. Pretty much a rave.

In other words it's great if you try and pretend its flaws are actually positives.

I do agree it's great filmmaking. Like it or not.

First of all, there's nothing fantastic about the filmmaking. Lingering around with a steady cam in silence hasn't been novel since the late 1990s early 2000s. You must not know world cinema if you think that.

[quote] This isn't your mom and dad's queerness.

This is literally mom and dad's queerness, living a life denying yourself because you have 2 moms and you need a father figure is an outdated concept from the late 70s early 80s. This show feels very dated.

The most likely scenario of the queerness of today would be everyone hooking up with each other at the orgy party. This show was meant to be set in the 1980s and it shows. It's anachronistic and unrealistic and thats why it didn't become a buzz show among its target audience.

Same thing with Now Apocalypse which I'm about to finish. Araki is another man who hates liking men. The show has a bi protagonist who claims he likes mostly men, the show opens with him fucking a dude than goes on for several episodes mostly focusing on his straight friends having all sorts of sexual fantasies. The show goes as far as to claim the protagonists best friend, a dumb hot screenwriter is a "rare Kinsey zero" even though they hooked up in the past. The straight dude who loves monogamy then falls in love with a woman who's obviously a bi curious french lady and when it comes the time for the Kinsey zero dude to hook up with her and another men he can't, because he's so hetero, except for that time he hooked up with the male protagonist, who by the way, must have 4 minutes of sex scenes the entire series.

It's pure self loathing from a generation of gay an bisexual guys with very unresolved sexualities.

BTW transparent goes the same route, Jill Solloway who's now non binary (surprise surprise) wrote her show where every character is sexually fluid but the alpha male son, isn't that fantastic?

I think the only show I can think of to get this right was Orange is the New Black, and it needed a prison to make its claim.

R282 You dispute any critique of the series' cinematic value by making an observation about steady cam technique. Deep.

Rather that than more pretentious waffle from you

....

R282, I am a huge Araki fan and I think those "bi" characters who like girls, but are leaning more towards gay are a reflection of Araki himself. That's a constant theme. At least he goes there with the gay sex and imagery, even in the 90's. Jonathan Schech eating his own cum - epic.

This is why WAWEA is so frustrating. It feels like a tease, except I don't like the payoffs. I absolutely cringe at the main character. I keep saying "this is my last week with this" but I keep watching. I am hoping, yet do not believe there will be a satisfying end to this.

Tonight's episode was good, second only to the pilot if you ask me.

I liked tonight's episode, too. Some of the camera choices made me roll my eyes, but overall it was a good one.

Finally, something happened. This was the best one so far. The black girl is the standout actor of this show.

[quote] I am a huge Araki fan and I think those "bi" characters who like girls, but are leaning more towards gay are a reflection of Araki himself. That's a constant theme. At least he goes there with the gay sex and imagery, even in the 90's. Jonathan Schech eating his own cum - epic.

I like Araki too, though I find Now Apocalypse to be kind of uneven even for an Araki show, in the end I did like the gay relationship in it though as I said before, the gay relationship had way less time than the others and he was the protagonist. I found myself skipping most of the straight stuff, there's nothing remotely interesting or different in there, to be honest.

It has to be said that Avan Jogia and Jacob Artist have perfect chemistry together, they deserve more screen time, too bad Starz canceled the show.

I'm about to watch WAWWA wish me luck, lets see if something happens this time around, apparently it does, I just hope it's something worth waiting 4 episodes for.

I'm not speaking to you for 11 days you evil CUNT!!!!!!

R289 Agreed, Jordan Kristine Seamón is the interesting character and actor in this. Her cool, sad and wise-before-her-time expressions attract attention.

The weird child-parent dysfunction with Grazer/Sevigny is so jarring... not sure if it works or not, but it seems to infuse the whole story with the sense of instability, neurosis... even violence.

Sarah's wife Maggie is really into Jennifer. Following her around all day, all the questions, staring lovingly at her.

This ain't gonna end well.

Any Jack dong yet?

r294 Season 2 will begin with a closeup of it.

It's a self-contained mini-series, there won't be a second season.

He seems the type to leak his own the second he turns 18. Or he'll join OnlyFans

R297, I see him going the Shia route.

What a great new episode of a show with a gay protagonist! 😬

Lesbians fucking .✔️

More straights having sex. ✔️

A black girl cut her hair (the horror!!!!) and the gay kid plays air guitar with a guy. ✔️

Let's not forget the actor posted on his Instagram a behind the scenes pic of him wearing a dress, because of course it wouldn't be a self-hating-gay show without a man wearing a dress.

R299 So, I'm old too. But what inherently "self-hating" is there about a man wearing a dress.

Old school: Gay and irritated....

New school: Queer and vacant...

This has become my favorite current show.

Outstanding episode 5.

Black guys in this are hot but only Craig has the exceptional dong

Do I need to watch this?

JDG's is the most exceptional because it's the freshest!

More Jonathan dong, please.

Yes, R93, because schools haven't covered every niche genre hack that ever lived.

Lovecraft isn't that good when you can read Bram Stoker, Mary Shelley or Ambrose Bierce.

r93 thinks that if you aren't well versed in his particular fetish horror fiction you haven't gone to school.

Seriously, you're trying to resurrect that conversation? Fuck off.

Seriously, why did you click on the thread, R309?

I just started watching and wanted to comment and get more feedback. The series isn't over.

So you fuck right off.

I'm slowly making my way through it. Just watched episode 3. It's sort of hypnotizing in a way. It's very slow yet somehow intriguing.

Exactly, R311. I'm willing to give it time. And no one is shooting anybody, so that's a change.

r312 We were promised miles and miles of dick!

[quote]The critics were very positive.

The critics are afraid to point out the emperor has no clothes

This show is a mess - an expensive, pretentious mess

R310 And yet you didn't discuss the topic of the thread, but instead a tedious off-topic diversion, long-since dead. So again, fuck off.

R315, seriously, what do you mean? I discussed the show, isn't that the topic?

R316 Not in R307 you didn't. Instead you brought up something off-topic which hadn't been mentioned for over 100 posts, and by quoting a post from almost a month ago. Your first actual on-topic post was R312.

I don't understand the stepmom's worry about Fraser spending time with Jonathan. She has no clue Fraser has any feelings for him, definitely no idea how Jonathan feels about him, so why would she automatically think it's possibly untoward for them to spend time together?

I would think any gay person could intuit the motivation of a kid wanting to hang around with an attractive older man, R318 ... and the inevitable hurt when that man turns out to be straight.

Just watched the latest episode. As I suspected, Sarah wanted Fraser to have some time with an older male, and she said her secretary (assistant) was a very nice guy. Which he is. Nothing sexual is going to happen, but Fraser is at least getting less nuts.

My SO and I are old and we like this show. And the secretary guy is hot.

[quote]I would think any gay person could intuit the motivation of a kid wanting to hang around with an attractive older man, [R318] ... and the inevitable hurt when that man turns out to be straight.

Her concern, to me, didn't seem Fraser facing, but Jonathan facing; as if him being an older man meant there was a predatory bent to them spending time together. It made sense when she pointed out that it was dodgy because Jonathan is Sarah's subordinate, but other than that her concerns seems unwarranted.

Did anyone catch Armie Hammer's cameo?

I like this series... it's off-centered in a good way. Although as a series some of the plot threads are becoming a little expected... a shorter movie with more left "undeveloped" would have been more successful.

The idea that there isn't a mutually understood sexual/romantic attraction by Fraser for Jonathan makes no sense. The "pee" scene was just weird... Jonathan insisting that Foster join him. Foster's kissing Jonathan as he leaves the car. Jonathan, so sophisticated and well read and smart, of course knows the game being played. And "mom" being ok with this is totally unrealistic.

But the whole work isn't a realistic work. It's over the top, off-norm, fantastical (the dance in the base cafeteria with the kids in white?).

Fraser's reduction into a smitten teen, overthinking whether the "beloved" will text, kicking the bed with frustration and misreading what's possible... is achieved by some good acting by Grazer... surprised me a bit; though Grazer was too absurd and dishonestly quirky for the first few episodes.

Fraser still seems absurdly weird to me, but I do think Grazer has created a very particular character.

Yeah Fraser is extremely weird but the kid is doing a fantastic job creating a character.

Where are the miles and miles of dick we were promised?

the acting is terrible

The acting is good. The show is too intelligent and no gun battles.

I kind of really dislike this show.

There is one device that I really like. It's where you are watching and hearing one scene and in the background, you can hear another scene going on. Sometimes, it's pulled out and presented, like when something's going on with Cate and her family while you hear drama in the background from Fraser's family, which then you see where he pulls his bitch mom's hair. Other times, it's just left to happen and if you miss it you miss it.

I can't recall seeing this used in movies before. In the hand of a good director, it could be gold.

Altman? Often had multiple people talking all at the same time, foreground and/or background. Often important plot of character information presented simultaneously.

Good point, R329. I hadn't thought of him, mainly because I didn't care for him as a director. Just personal choice. You make a good point.

Another episode where nothing fucking happened. Its speaks volumes that in a show where the protagonist is a gay teen, most episodes revolve around the trans neighbor and the lesbian moms.

Whatever happened to Fraser's NY boyfriend, whatever his name was? Wasn't him in love?

That soldier touching his hair at the karaoke show was creepy as fuck, even for Italian standards.

2 episodes to go, maybe by the last episode we'll finally get Fraser to have a love life as we pan to the window....

Mark, the boyfriend in New York.

For some reason, I wouldn't be surprised if the beg ending is the reveal that Mark is dead.

No, the reveal is that Mark is a trans boy.

I just finished the 3rd episode - does it get any better because so far, besides the beautiful scenery, what is the point?

Is Craig fucking the brother with the anger issues on the DL or something - if not, what the hell did he mean when he told the kid he had a fine ass? That just came out of nowhere...

I hope Luca is self-aware enough to realize he has set up all the right wing talking points - the lesbian moms depriving the boy of a father leads to gender confusion and ultimately homosexuality or worse predatory lesbian molests her own kid.

Hint - if you turn on the closed captions, you can follow the overlapping dialogues better...

R333--that sounds more plausible, and trendy.

r336 Luca does whatever he can to avoid actual M/M homosexuality.

"Whatever happened to Fraser's NY boyfriend, whatever his name was? Wasn't him in love?"

He appears in the final episode. Here is sneak peek.

I can appreciate a good photoshop. Bad ones are fucking terrifying though.

R334

"predatory lesbian molests her own kid" is quite a stretch.

The most recent episode was the best so far. And Fraser finally has a shower scene and takes dick pics!

I'm excited to see where this is going to fit into the CMBYN Cinematic Universe!

r340 I agree - I was being hyperbolic to make a point that the family dynamic was disturbing to say the least - his violent attacks on his Mom and her co-dependent response to coddle him and express physical acts of affection that may have been appropriate for a 5 year old but not a pubescent boy. I had trouble watching some of those scenes and since Luca seems indifferent to consistent character and plot development, I don't see any of this as advancing a coherent narrative that is revealed in later episodes so what is the payoff for ticking all the homophobic stereotypes of lesbians raising mentally disturbed queers? I'm sure a better screenwriter could have come up with a way to tell a story about a gay family with all the same issues but with some positive resolution but no evidence so far that this series is anything more than Luca's self-indulgent masturbatory aesthetic.

Also, why is Craig, a grown ass enlisted soldier, hanging out with high school kids? And why was Craig telling the soon to be Muslim fanatic that he had a nice ass????

I thought Craig was in some ROTC program? Don't know why he would be hanging out with high school students if he wasn't also in high school?

He's Luca's surrogate.

I hope this doesn't turn dark with the black maga hat wearing hubbie with short man anger issues going all American Beauty and attacking the dykes next door though Luca couldn't have made them any less sympathetic - Chloe comes off as some borderline narcissist who has no boundaries with her son or his butch fag hag who is watching YT videos about injecting testosterone (and since when is that even a thing? why are we encouraging adolescents to take powerful hormones that can have life-altering side effects?? The other wife wasted no time seducing the neighbor lady - meanwhile, the son has somehow been radicalized by Youtube Imams and might off the queers on his way to Syria to become a martyr.

But Luca slaps some vaseline on the camera lens and make it look pretty so I'm sure he will get another award notch in his belt on the way up the EGOT laf

r346 I think there will be a lot of vaseline on the set of Luca's Lord of the Flies.

[quote]The other wife wasted no time seducing the neighbor lady

I was fine with Maggie until this recent episode when she said Caitlin wasn't good for Fraser; as if Fraser wasn't a teenage alcoholic pimp slapping her wife before they came to the base.

Maggie said that to bolster her argument for banishing the woman she had an affair with. The woman's family is collateral damage. Maggie is not a nice person.

None of these characters are nice people except maybe Cait...

WTF was going on with miss sourpuss Chloe stripping down nude in the middle of a room full of her subordinate soldier to change into her uniform? Chloe S. borderline autistic lack of emotional affect has always been creepy and unnerving (she started her career in a that icky borderline pedo film Kids and god knows what happened on that set) but I am baffled as to why Luca thinks both the character and the actor make for compelling drama and why critics seem dazzled by his aesthetical one trick wonder of foregrounding beautiful Italian landscapes to distract from his negligence when it comes plot and character development. (if so all his movies and series are going to have to be set in post war Italy to keep this up)

Were Craig and the soon to be Muslim convert brother (if he is pious why is he fucking the Italian girl??) fucking? I still don't understand why Craid told him he had a fine ass in that weird scene at the party. Was he rushing to marry that girl because he was on DL?

Why is every episode titled Right Here, right now # 1,2,3 etc.? If you are going to actually create episode titles at least put some work into them...

[quote]and why critics seem dazzled by his aesthetical one trick wonder of foregrounding beautiful Italian landscapes to distract from his negligence when it comes plot and character development

Because they're insecure and none of them want to be the odd one out. They don't want to risk panning it in case they're then accused of being too stupid to get it. Take a look at R327 for an example of that kind of thinking - just feels so smugly superior that they like the show, and anyone who doesn't? Pah, they must be idiots who want shooty shit.

I am strangely fascinated by this show. Its engrossing for me. All characters are rich and multi dimensional and filming is very cinematic.

Critics have panned Luca's work before though, including his most recent work before this show, his short film The Staggering Girl. Perhaps they just genuinely think this is worthy.

Two episodes ago, when Fraser and Caitlyn were performing that Blood Orange piano song and dancing in the all white . . . what the hell was that?

Why does the actor play that Fraser kid so spazzy? He jerks and lurches and constantly chews his nails and looks like a fucking mess all the time. It goes beyond teenage gay angst. He's just . . . is he supposed to be sexy/attractive in any light? He's so odd (not in an endearing way) and gross-looking/acting.

R355 I think that's just how JDG actually is

R355, he’s adorable and hung!

R357, he looks exactly like he's 16 and stinks. That faint mustache, that dyed fried hair. The ridiculous clothes. The duck walk. Hitting and kicking things, dancing like a toddler with no rhythm. If we're supposed to like him or sympathize, it's totally lost on me.

[quote]angst. He's just . . . is he supposed to be sexy/attractive in any light?

I can't see how he's supposed to be. With any other actor the scene with Jonathan, his girlfriend and Fraser would objectively be sexy, but JDG is so twitchy and annoying it takes the viewer out of the scene.

I don't think any of the characters supposed to be likeable in this. If you are looking for a guide who to like, you are on the wrong channel.

Why are people thinking a character who is 14 is meant to be seen as sexy or attractive?

R361, I don't think he's 14. And I don't think we're supposed to see him as sexy/attractive, but the show puts him, along with all the other actors his age, in very explicit situations so we're clearly meant to see them as sexual beings whether we want to or not, you sanctimonious pollyanna.

R362 Yes, the character is 14. And there's a difference between seeing someone was a sexual being and seeing them as sexy, you fucking idiot.

Oh. Bryan Grazer is his uncle. Makes more sense now.

Overall the execution of this show is really clumsy.

So what was happening in the scene in Jonathan apartment? I thought at first it was just the drunk girlfriend getting frisky with frazer but when jonathan danced right into him, it seemed like a potential 3 way so maybe jonathan and the gf are swingers but there was never a clear moment when jonathan wanted to kiss or suck Frazer, he was more sort like trying to get frazer and the girl to fuck but then frazer went all spastic, literally turned his back on the girl and was about to dive right into jonathan but then he freaked.

If I were Jonathan, I would have run after him to make sure he wasn't going to blab to Chloe because trying to either fuck or have your girlfriend fuck the underage psycho son of your ballbusting boss could have you locked up in a military prison for a long time - but this show has so many other plot holes that it is senseless to even try to reconcile these facts.

Jonathan is another potentially interesting character and there were some scenes that could have developed - it seemed the girlfriend knew that Frazer was crushing on jonathan when she saw the way he was pining over him at the restaurant (how jonathan hadn't picked up on this we will never know). And I was expecting Frazer to have a violent breakdown when he saw the gf in the apartment and realized they had been fucking.

And yea, by making frazer so bizarre - the actor does a good job if that is what luca wanted - there is so much potential lost.

The show has given us good Tom Mercier dong, if nothing else.

r354 Yea there have been lots of head scratching moments like that - early on I thought maybe Luca would break form and go the full magical realism route or even pull an Araki with aliens and shit but no, I guess there could be some deeper meaning but more likely something cut in editing that makes it look out of place.

A wee bit self-indulgent that Luca. There's somethng to be said about extended camera pans but does it have to happen multiple times in every single episode? I don't get it

Wow the show only has one episode left? Lame

Uh r355. Fraser is supposed to be a very peculiar and awkward kid. He is not at all meant to be some sexy hunk.

What show are you watching?!

[Quote] I don't think he's 14.

Fraser and Cate are both 14 years who are freshmen in highschool.

This las episode I had to FF some scenes it just dragged. Chloe has nice tits and Jonathan is hot. That’s all.

That death was pretty predictable. I knew when Craig was leaving that he was never coming back.

And I, too, thought Craig and Danny fucked.

r374 Luca is big on ambiguity, which is fine up to a point, but knowing that, for example, if Craig and Danny did have a sexual relationship, then subsequent events take on much greater meaning - it would explain the shotgun wedding, the stakes of religious conversion, etc. All reviewers that I have seen can't be bothered with such details, they are enthralled with the pretty pictures and music references - the Vulture critic literally called this series "visual poetry" which I guess is true if you reduce poetry to the mere rhyming of words! Also, I had some issues with Euphoria but it was much closer to poetry and it had much stronger character development and a real plot.

The only reviewer that has actually critiqued the show (avclub I think) did raise some of the same issues about lack of plot, etc. but she was much more indignant that a "cis" actor was playing a "trans" role, which started a debate in the comments about whether Cait was actually non-binary and not trans and therefore why wasn't a non-binary actor cast, etc. I stopped reading at that point because the knives were out.

I think Luca is one of these "sexuality is too fluid for your small minded boxes" types which is true of most critics so they love this ambiguity. Although after a few episodes, it is pretty clear that there isn't much if any sexual attraction between Cait and Frazer and Frazer most certainly has both an emotional crush and a boner for Jonathan so I am not sure where the ambiguity really is.

Is this series based on a book? Luca didn't have much wiggle room with the plot of CMBYN because it was based on Acimens book but where did the screenplay come from for this?

This is an original property all written by Luca and his two collaborators for this project (Paolo Giordano and Francesca Manieri) r379.

r377 Oh that explains a lot. I keep hearing critics hail this as some sort of celebration of teenage pan-sexuality but all we have seen is lots of hetero couples making out and even fucking but the closet we get to man on man action is the aborted 3 way with Jonathan and his girlfriend and despite some early misleading episode descriptions primary "relationship" between Frazer and Cait hinting that Frazer was suddenly wanting to fuck a girl but its just a friendship with not even the pretense of Frazer being anything but boring old gay. I guess making Cait trans or non-binary or whatever is the twist but not even Frazer seems to know what that is about (his claim that transgender means not obeying society rules or something like that was telling)...

I'm so bored by this series I didn't memorize their names, I'm like weird kid, tranny girl, Brazilian Lesbo, Black Lesbo, Chloe Sevigny, etc.

I gave up on the show early on, and it's difficult to even find episode summaries. How does Craig die?

[quote]This is an original property all written by Luca and his two collaborators for this project (Paolo Giordano and Francesca Manieri)

Do people realize that the whack writing on this series is a preview of what we can expect with Guadagnino's CMBYN sequel, which he'll be writing with a collaborator like he did here, without the benefit of Andre Aciman or James Ivory? It's going to be a mess.

Jonathan is so dreamy.

R381 To be fair to Guadagnino, after reading Aciman's CMBYN sequel, it can't get much worse than it already is.

R383 Yeah he's better off without that nonsense, and probably better off without the bitterness of Ivory too. They were lucky that didn't impact the quality of the original.

Regardless of what people here think, the reviews for We Are Who We Are are good, with a Metacritic score only behind CMBYN and I Am Love, ahead of A Bigger Splash and Suspiria, both of which have their fans too. And that score is only collected from the reviews of the first 4 episodes, it would likely be higher if reflected on the whole season, as the most recent episode received an A- from The AV Club.

Can someone answer my question? How did Craig die?

R385

He and two other troops died by an explosion in Afghanistan.

This is another piece of shit queerbaiting show and the writing and acting are terrible.

Caitlin gets to make out with both males and females but surprise surprise the lone gay boy on the show gets squadoosh.

Typical. I wish I could say om disappointed but my expectations were so low to begin with.

Craig got killed by Afghan by an IED and then they burned him up. He had a nice dick but he couldn't live forever.

381 Season 2 of this series and Lord of the Flies will be folded into the CMBYN Cinematic Universe.

It's Luca's ultimate statement!

I admit I really wanted to see a gay sex scene. So disappointed even though I overall liked the show, was interested enough to watch every episode.

r389 I feel his remake of Death in Venice is inevitable at this point.

I think the difference between this and CMBYN is that the actual lead actor is still a minor, not just playing one for the role. He was only 15 or 16 when they filmed this (he just turned 17 last month). This is tricky thing with depicting these large age-gap romances when the actors themselves are close to the ages they're actually portraying. We don't know how old Jonathan is supposed to be, but we know he's an adult. Granted, in Italy the age of consent for a teenager and an adult is 16, so no technical laws are being broken if they did show a sex scene between the actors, but it's probably a bridge too far for most American viewers and maybe fore the actors themselves. It's foolish to think relationships between adults and teenage minors don't happen, but it is a minefield and Luca or HBO seems unwilling to fully go there with this series. Hell, Luca panned to a tree during the sex scene in CMBYN and that was a feature film and both leads were adults (though Timothee's character was not). I doubt there will be any further exploration of the flirtation between Fraser and Jonathan.

They couldn’t give him a boy his age in one of his classes?

And they didn’t even have to give a gay sex scene with Fraser. They couldn’t even give a gay sex scene with a closeted man like they did Jenny (with Maggie).

[quote]They couldn’t give him a boy his age in one of his classes?

Funny how that thought didn't seem to occur to Luca

R394 I feel like Luca is a closeted out gay man. He has deep self loathing. Wonder if this is why his partner left him.

Yes it isn't like Luca was constrained by the age gap, the age gap was his choice.. He chose to have Fraser be a 14 year old character and have his love life focus on a 30 year old charactee.

Once you make that decision there is obviously no way those two characters were ever having sex. We new they weren't going to have sex so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

R395 Someone else in the thread made the comparison to Dolce and Gabbana and I think it's quite apt. Luca once described fighting for equal marriage as being militant. I mean hell, look at the "gay" film he made. Whoever it was on Twitter who called CMBYN a gay film for straight people who like Europe was on the money.

He meets a boy of his age in the finale. Not show if that means they are still going to show sex between though.

I want Jonathan to frolic with me in the shower and then make sweet love to me.

[quote]I want Jonathan to frolic with me in the shower and then make sweet love to me.

I want him to do everything except dance. That terrible dancing to a fantastic Radiohead song was disrespectful.

Jonathan naked in the first episode:

Tom Mercier has no problem baring it all. I don't see any reason to complain.

Though I can't imagine expecting an explicit scene between 30-year-old Jonathan and 14-year-old Fraser. Let's be honest here--that would be gross,

For a short, limited series they should have wrapped up that Fraser/Jonathan arc episodes ago and gave him a boy his age. Doing it in the finale is way too late.

And I didn’t want a Fraser sex scene anyway. I would have liked a gay sex scene with one or more of the adult male characters. Is it really fair that they gave multiple straight and lesbian sex scenes and none gay?

I'm probably on the younger side of DL. But I don't get why people actually watch and congratulate shows for "showing dong". You're on the internet. You can see longer dong, thicker dong, better looking dong, dong actually engaged in gay sex at the click of a button. Hell wait 24 hours you can see the same dong without having to sit through the story.

I’d love to know why the perpetually angry MAGA asshole Lieutenant Colonel called another person ensign. As it is exclusively an Army base—with no Navy or Marine detachments—this too was sloppy as fuck writing.

R405, actor dong is always more interesting than porn dong.

r407 Both are being paid to get their dick out.

r406 That was minor compared to all the other inconsistencies with military life - I mean they had the fucking base commander strip nude in front of dozens of her officers (her excuse that she was acting like a male commander would is bizarre).

It was a ridiculous premise from the start that a US soldier stationed in Italy with be fraternizing with 14-year-old local kids.

r401 Yea that was cringeworthy but I am sure it was written in the script notes and Luca probably choreographed it himself.

The perma-smirk on Maggie's face irks me.

For a commander, Chloe is a doormat at home. Wife regularly sleeps around, kid regularly smacks her.

I think this is drawn from a weird combo of time zones. Luca said the Fraiser's basic story was drawn from his interacting with base brat as a teen. Going by his age this would be the 80s , So stuff like showering in front of minors would be at least be more permissible.. The way characters dress reminds me of skaters in the 2000s. But stuff like lesbian commanding officers, and Muslim convert fundamentalism is definitely present day.

I thought this takes place in 2016

r414 It does. But I think large parts of the plot make more sense in the past. What 2010s mother would support her son hanging out wit an older man? What girlfriend would be oblivious to a teenager crushing on her boyfriend? Stuff like that requires a societal ignorance to happen.

R409 There is so much in this series that absolutely would not happen in real life... it's not quite surrealistic/magical realism, but it's pretty close (indeed some scenes like the two kids dressed in white dancing through the cafeteria is exactly magical realism). It's unnerving - mostly to good impact. It's like watching someone lie, who know you know they are lying, but they spin more gloriously the lie they are telling... looking you right in the eye. In terms of plot details (the base, the roles each play at the base, how families live) nothing is remotely real.

That's Luca - lying right to your face and not even remotely apologetic.

R413 What are you talking about? The cell phones, the texting, the clothes, Trump and Clinton debating each other on TV.... it's 2016.

[quote] What are you talking about

I mean the feeling of the show doesn't strike right with me. I genuinely think Luca has made a series about some American teen he met growing up. when he was a teenager In the 80s when walking on men showering, and the mother thinking a male authority figure and whatever else wasn't overly weird.

r416 I think you are giving Luca way too much credit - I first mentioned magical realism a few hundred comments ago r386 but mainly in jest as I don't think Luca has the sophistication necessary to pull off such a feat. A better explanation is that Luca excels at the technical aspects of filmmaking and uses those skills to create an overpowering visual and musical aesthetic to amp up the emotional plot points , whether exhilaration of teenage party that ends up with plenty of drunken (hetero)sex scenes or the shock and grief of Craig's death and scenes filled with numb stares punctuated by intermittent tearful wailing. The plot is so secondary to aesthetics that logical inconsistencies, anachronisms, and nonsequiturs barely register so long as they aren't so out of place that they sabotage the mood. Magical realism in literature (think Rushdie, Allende, and Marquez) uses magical or supernatural events in a way that validates the logic of realism rather than undermining it. Luca plot holes and flights of fancy aren't the signs of a sub-rosa application of film theory but merely a consequence of his technical talents leading him to foreground expressionism over realism.

I think the better comparison is to Araki who completely eschews realism and most certainly intends to dispell any pretense that we live in a rational, logical or even empirical world. His films seem to revel in an imminent apocalypse (even if it causes not by GOD but aliens) and his characters indulge in what would normally be considered self-destructive behavior to squeeze out as much emotional zeal as possible since the world will end long before drugs or disease get you. Luca never goes that far - the beauty he creates may occasionally be punctured by tragedy

[quote]The plot is so secondary to aesthetics that logical inconsistencies, anachronisms, and nonsequiturs barely register

His remake of Suspiria then.

I think Luca's talent amounts to filming in Italy. The rest is, as Sophie's dad said, "pulp."

R418 That's well put. I really wasn't accusing (or crediting) Luca of "real " magical realism... if anything I guess he could be said to deconstruct realist expectations, and when the disconnect with the reasonable becomes big enough, surreal enough, he's a post-modern magical realist.

I hate manga. I know I shouldn't, but I've just no patience... it's silly. So Araki is foreign territory to me. But speaking of Japanese, I think some of Luca's movies are like Kore-eda without the jokes.

r421 Sorry should have been more clear - I was referring to Greg Araki 3 gayish (more Queer than gay like Araki himself - in fact these are considered the start of the Queer New Wave) films in the 90s (I think he described them as the Teenage Apocalypse Trilogy - Totally Fucked Up, Doom Generation and Nowhere). Araki is quite polarizing - you either think he is a brilliant visionary or an embarrassing hack - but these early films managed to win over a number of influential critics but none of his work has really ever crossed over beyond cult film types. I generally loathe his work with the exception of Mysterious Skin, which unlike his earlier work, he did not write (the author of the book wrote the screenplay) which probably explains why it is so much better in my opinion. It still has some absurdist elements but there a coherent plot although the subject matter is quite dark.

Araki has this annoying habit of writing characters that either intentionally or not, mirror his own life, especially sexuality. There are very few exclusively gay characters in his works and almost all of the main ones are bisexual but heavily leaning towards men but in a relationship with a woman. Araki led everyone to believe he was gay until he suddenly fell in love with Kathleen Robertson during the filming of Nowhere and was quite obnoxious about announcing his newly acquired girlfriend (they promoted the film together even though she was just part of an ensemble cast and not a co-star - and it was almost comical in interviews where he babbled on about queer issues at the same time gushing about his lovely girlfriend to the confusion of everyone). It was so bad that apparently he claims they were heckled at one of the gay film festivals and they eventually just refused to discuss the matter any further. They dated for maybe 2 years but during that time he wrote probably his worst reviewed film ever - Splendor which starred Kathleen and was about a bisexual open marriage (Greg was apparently still fucking boys on the side) that was a total dud. I think they had broken by the time it premiered and I don't think he promoted the film (not that it had much distribution it may have even gone straight to DVD). He almost never discusses his personal life since that fiasco but apparently he has only dated men since.

R422 Ha, well that's a different Araki. I'll check out this American Araki. Thanks.

Finale is getting very positive reviews.

SPOILER

Apparently the finale focuses mainly on Fraser and Cait. No Sarah, Maggie or Jonathan, and only cameos from the friend group.

Luca is openly campaigning for HBO to give him a second season.

[Quote]Me and my beautiful writers, we already wrote a Bible for the second season,” he said, referencing co-creators Sean Conway, Paolo Giordano, and Francesca Manieri. “But we have to see. We did it because we were locked down [during the pandemic], and we didn’t want to waste our time. In lockdown, making Zoom calls, we thought about the characters and we came up with something [for Season 2]. We’ll see. I’m very curious to know how this is received. You can see that this is a very dear project to me. I feel it as something very close to me, and I’m very happy that I’ve done it. So if HBO and Sky would be game for making the great cast return to their great characters, I will be there.”

So much for that poster insisting this was a one-off and so the ratings didn't matter.

As for those ratings: 117,000, 90,000, 62,000, 60,000, 49,000, 50,000, 92,000. But Luca wants a second series because he and his team were bored during lockdown so they wrote a bible. As if the bible from the first season shouldn't still be mostly applicable?

[quote]Personally, Guadagnino wasn’t surprised by the election results — “I took bets on Trump winning”

Presumably not from Armie Hammer

So is this based on Luca's teenage years? If he was half as fucked up as that kid, then no wonder he is so self-loathing...But he has literally no chance in hell of getting HBO to continue footing the bill for what amounts to a vanity project for a director who has an inflated ego because he struck Oscar gold once. Filming on location in Italy isn't cheap and HBO either expects a return based on ratings or maybe in rare cases, take a loss if there is PR value (universal critical acclaim or small but motivated fan base) but HBO already took a risk by rolling the dice by greenlighting Luca in the first place - there is no reason to burn more money and Luca isn't important enough to make demands. It would be one thing if there was some massive fan campaign to renew it and while it has gotten good reviews, I don't know of any critic who would take up a crusade to renew it (except maybe the loon at Vulture who is probably some recent college grad who is still an intern)...

r429 I thought he was going to be doing his Lord of the Flies series for HBO

R430, which would involve more nudity?

[quote]because he struck Oscar gold once

More like silver

r431 But it will be done tastefully!

HBO needs more content. That’s why they should go along with it.

[quote] But Luca wants a second series because he and his team were bored during lockdown so they wrote a bible. As if the bible from the first season shouldn't still be mostly applicable?

Obviously he means they wrote an outline for a second season.

Luca on the finale.

You gotta be fucking kidding me.

So the gay kid ends up kissing an imaginary gay boyfriend and he ends up kissing the black girl.

I can't believe this shit. Wait, this is a Luca whatshisname, so I totally can.

[quote]Obviously he means they wrote an outline for a second season.

Then why didn't he say that? A bible is a very specific thing

[quote]I met Jack once before shooting. We met in Los Angeles when we were casting the show, and I found already that he was incredibly bright and really someone who could make me develop a passion for because of his intelligence.

Luca continuing to sound like a perv, getting very close to the "he's so mature I forgot he was 15". Also, the blinding nepotism at play - the EP of a miniseries met his lead actor only once before they started production, presumably meaning a single audition?

The finale was, true to character for the whole series, unsatisfying. That's not bad. Unsatisfying because life, even in movies, really can't and won't give you what you expect and want. That's a central theme to everything Luca does.

It is what it is. We are who we are.

That being said, the two principals kissing each other at the end was surprisingly powerful to me... it didn't seem forced, or misdirected. They both need a safe harbor.

I am still unclear on the tumblr rules about changing gender identies, specifically those that aren't old school trans (mtf or ftm and involve some changes to your body by hormones or surgery) such as non/a/genders/binaries. If a man (I suppose they would personed assigned at birth as male) is gay (men who are only attracted to/have sex/relationships with other men, stops identifying as a man and adopts a new gender identity such non-binary/agender and doesn't intend to physically transition (no hormones or surgery), but his sexual attractions to men don't change, then is he(they) still gay? If not, then what?

If the point of creating all these new identities around gender is a reject/change traditional cultural norms that privileges masculinity in men and femininity in women and punishes those who don't conform, then don't these new identities just reinforce the traditional norms by essentially giving up rather than fighting back? If your man who isn't uber-masculine and your response is to stop identifying as a man rather than expanding and changing the cultural expectations around masculinity, then aren't you essentially saying that other men who also aren't uber-masculine, aren't really men either? Oddly, by moving the defining characteristics of men from our physical bodies and biology (particularly reproductive organs and secondary sex characteristics developed in utero) to the purely cultural rules around masculinity and feminity, you end validating the worst and most toxic forms of masculinity.

I also seems like there would be tension between the old school trans who had to go through physical transitioning would and these newer gender identities that are involve nothing more than self-declaration based on very subjective internal feelings. If genitals have nothing to do with sex, then why do mtf/ftm go to such extremes as to surgically remove them or chemically alter them?

So do they fuck? Is Jack a homo or not? If Cait is really a man trapped in a womans body, is Jack still gay if they fuck? Is it transphobic to even raise these questions?

I haven't detected any evidence of attraction between them and the characters seems to be just a normal gay boy with a close faghag in high school but that wouldn't be mysterious enough I guess.

[quote] then don't these new identities just reinforce the traditional norms by essentially giving up rather than fighting back?

Yes. Just a few years ago social media was full on condemnation over companies acting as though pink was for girls, blue for boys. Seen much of that lately? Instead now, it's "oh your son likes pink stuff? He must actually be a transgirl".

[quote]I also seems like there would be tension between the old school trans who had to go through physical transitioning would and these newer gender identities that are involve nothing more than self-declaration based on very subjective internal feelings

And it's a certainty that once the real backlash against trans begins - and it will - the latter will disappear, all of a sudden realising they're no longer trans, and they'll leave the former to deal with the shitstorm.

Why do you think the biggest rule of all this stupidity is "don't question how someone labels themself"? Because they know all their bullshit can't stand up to questioning.

Jack Dylan Grazer speaks with Vulture.

Fraser’s sexuality never is specifically defined. That’s true of other characters in the show, too. There’s more fluidity. Do you think that’s fair to say?

JDG: There’s a lot of fluidity. Yeah.

Would you define Fraser as gay or would you not even really define him? He’s definitely not gay, but also he’s not bisexual—

[Publicist interrupts]: Can we skip that question? Sorry.

JDG: No, actually I like this question. Can we ask this question?

[Publicist: Okay, fine.]

JDG: It's not about me, it’s about Fraser and I think it’s good. And also I know the answer. Luca has said that Fraser is not gay. Fraser is not gay. Fraser is not straight. He’s not bisexual. Because he’s not giving himself these labels. He’s not giving himself these titles. He is truly attracted to what he’s attracted to, as most humans are. If we were just these primal, living organisms, we would live as if we were attracted to what we were attracted to without this stereotypical wall of like, “No, I’m a man. I’ve got to be attracted to a girl,” or vice versa.

It’s the feeling of craving something in a day and maybe you don’t crave it the next day, but it’s just like you’re in this constant state of being human and the constant state of also understanding yourself and following through with these understandings. I think that’s what Fraser’s really in touch with, that primal instinct.

I read the whole interview. JDG comes off way smarter than I was at 16.

I think JDG is bi.

R445 It's almost like he's had media training and been given answers to memorise or something.

For a million years, it seems like when we gay people get drawn into a movie or show because it's going to address our issues, it's like we're Charlie Brown being encouraged by Lucy to give one more shot at kicking the football. We put too much value on shows like this. For some reason, perhaps primitive or visceral, I wanted to like it. But then, I look at it and think how most of the characters were neither likable nor relatable. From my point of view, if the story had gone like I would have wanted to, I have to admit I'd wonder why I'd want it to go these ways because the only characters I didn't dislike were characters I didn't care about.

Of course, he isn't gay - Luca would never write a truly gay character because Luca, deep down, is a self-loathing homo. And I'm sorry the kid doesn't come off as particularly smart but very opinionated and Luca certainly helped craft the narrative to the extent that the kid seems offended by the very word "gay" (no homophobia here - nothing to look - Luca told me so it must be true) They don't seem to think sexual orientation is an actual thing - it is the same old lie that pops up every few years in different forms - both left and right have different versions of it as well - it is "everyone is really ____" and name varies from bisexual to pansexual to fluid to the evergreen "don't label me man"! If it weren't for society, there would be no straight, gay, or anything - I mean that is primal right (All animals are bisexual - didn't you know that. Oh wait, they aren't).

R449 The kid, as scripted and as performed, is very smart. Ridiculously well read. But he's a kid. Inchoate. A work in progress.

Of course the fangirl from Vulture got the interview - those reviews were so over the top I thought it was a parody.

And I am calling BS on the whole PR rep tries to stop the interview but brave heterosexual actor won't be silenced - "NOT GAY" is what he and Luca want to make very clear. Gay is BAD.

It harkens back to the days where anybody who was gay would say they were bisexual so they could sort of get the message out without any consequences. This was the kind of crap that led me, as a gay man, to the conclusion that all bisexuals are female. I've learned, since then, that things are a little more complicated. But, for the most part, when I hear a guy claim to be bi- or pan- sexual (personally, I think "pansexual" is bi-phobic) I assume that, yes, he likes the dick and the prick.

[quote] because Luca, deep down, is a self-loathing homo.

Would explain why he cast JDG who's made homophobic comments in the past. Wouldn't surprise me if videos of Timothee throwing around the f word in his raps were to surface.

God, I would hate the world he describes - you wake up every day and your attractions are merry go round - who would want to be in a relationship if tomorrow they aren't attracted to you? But he seems to think that is the world now for everyone? Or would be if it weren't for all those evil labels.

And why wasn't he asked about his sexual orientation? Is that now a shameful thing again? And if this is so progressive, why were there no gay sex scenes but plenty of straight fucking (and of course girl on girl kissing - where were the boys kissing again? Oh there weren't because homos don't really exist!!

Why does he think that the alcoholic mom abusing bratty teen character is likable and somehow is more in touch with this strange "true" human sexuality that he (or Luca) seem obsessed with? Isn't it more likely that he is atypical and has some serious issues rather than being some avatar of sexual liberation?

I don't even want to watch the final episode now - what happened? Did he suddenly start lusting after the girl/non-binary character because if Luca really wanted the character to not be gay, he shouldn't have only written scenes were he was sexually aroused by men - there wasn't one scene where he expressed any attraction to anyone but the hot Israeli so I'm calling BS.

r450 By kid I meant the actor being interviewed - if anything, the Frazer character seems like an aspie to me or what used to knows as an idiot savant (can memorize prodigious amounts of information but has no way to really process it)

You don't need to watch much of the IT press tours, or look at much of his social media, to see that Grazer is not that smart.

I hope this isn't renewed. if Luca wanted to do CMBYN sequel he should have hired some decent writers and Timothee but he's a nepotism brat loving asshole who likes them underaged. fuck him.

Speaking of CMBYN, I assumed the sequel will be based on Acimens follow-up - has anyone read it and does anyone still believe Acimen is actually straight?

I read the sequel to CMBYN. It felt to me like it could have. been billed as "a novel by the author of 'Call Me By Your Name,"" but contained adjustments so it could be sold as the more profitable sequel to CMBYN. He took his novel, tied it into CMBYN (having to rewrite some history) and, voila, goes from a new novel to a sequel.

For so long, I used to wish that gay cinema would become more mainstream. But it's painful to see today's mainstream queer cinema.

R460 I think Luca has made it clear in recent interviews that he doesn't intend to base any follow-up movie on that book. It was pretty poorly received and would require the movie to be 90% about Elio's dad. Elio is also in his 30s/40s in it and it will be decades before Chalamet looks that old.

I guess there will. be multiple CBMYN universes.

[quote] Elio is also in his 30s/40s in it and it will be decades before Chalamet looks that old.

R462, if ever

R464 Agreed... Chalamet is going to be one of those actors who looks 22 one year, and suddenly the next year he's 50.

Let me guess - they both ended with women and then meet once a year for sex...

So how did WAWWA end? I can think of anything more tedious than an hour of Fraser and Cait brooding...

R467 If you like Blood Orange, the English singer, you'll like it.... whole chunks of him performing.

Fraser really needs to get laid though.... he's so frenetic and goofy, needs to be taken down a peg or two.

R467, they ended up together. So cliché

I'm waiting for the second season, where Fraser enters a Seminary and maintains his celibacy over 8 episodes.

R470 Apart from the episode where he has a torrid sexual affair with a visiting nun

r470 That does sound right up Lucas street. Plenty of Italians around, supressed homoeroticism in the dormitories. Lots of room for tasteful panning shots of an icon of Saint Sebastian being martyred. Little chance of anything actually happening after 9 whole episodes.

The paintball/house party episode and the final episode which was basically a Blood Orange concert were so boring. It’s like Luca decided to just turn the camera on and told all the actors “have a good time”!

Stupidest scene of the entire series - Chloe Sevigny openly stripping down in a room full of her Army subordinates like it’s no big whoop. I cracked the fuck up at that scene!

It's lazy film making. What happened to Luca?

HBO already signed on to another Luca series, guess they're not too mad at the ratings.

r474 Nothing he's always been a style over substance director.

r475 Will he be able to fold this into the CMBYN Cinematic Universe?

R475 That cast would get any series green-lit

-r469 Together? I thought her family was moving to another overseas posting. So did they have sex or at least kiss? If Luca wanted to make Fraser bi or pan or whatever, why were there no scenes of him showing any sexual attraction to anyone besides the hot Israeli? And there were several references throughout the series that Cait and he never kissed and were basically nothing more than friends so I just assumed his homosexuality was a given but that wouldn't fit Lucas MO - Jack certainly the message when he seemed to scream at the interviewer that Fraser was certainly NOT GAY!

-r473 Yea that was sort of the jump the shark moment for me - that would be the LAST thing a female officer would as it completely undermine her command and confirm every ridiculous claim made against female officers. And it made no sense even in Lucas strange meandering plot.

Has Chloe always been so emotionally void as an actress - it was almost like she had an autistic level of affect. Although she has aged well - she has filled out some since her early films but she was always too thin to begin with (wasn't she part of that brief period heroin chic)?

Luca, will I get to show my tits in this episode??

Personally, I think that the key factor that led to CMBYN's success was hype. And Luca, as well as Aciman, were given a lot of undeserved credibility as creators. Neither the movie nor the novel were anything to be excited about. The sequel to the novel is a novel that would go nowhere except as a sequel to a best-seller. As we see in WAWWA, the director is a one-trick pony. I'm glad to see the sequel movie will diverge from the sequel novel, just to understand that both "creators" are hack.

R482 A bigger Splash and (even more in my opinion) I Am Love.... both had Luca's cinematic language before CMBYN. Both well-received. Suspiria was a misstep, though still a sight to see.

Wasn't this based in part on Luca's own adolescent experiences in Italy? If so, does that mean Luca doesn't consider himself gay? It would explain much of his self-loathing...

R484 Probably considers himself a man who sleeps with men, not gay...

-r482 Part of Acimens undeserved praise was that he was a (supposedly) straight man writing about gay intimacy and that talking point was hammered home in every interview or profile piece about him and the book/movie printed in the last few years.

R486 Was that praise from other straight people or did any gay/bi people actually say that shit?

r487 Str8 men have such a deep understanding of being gay.

r487 Both unfortunately although there seemed to be sort of a backlash against CMBYN by some of the gay critics recently - I think Luca's transparent desire to milk its success with endless sequels made some go back and question the mass hysteria that surrounded it.

[quote]that would be the LAST thing a female officer would as it completely undermine her command and confirm every ridiculous claim made against female officers.

Not only that, the insane rates of rape and sexual assault perpetrated against women in the US military make it even more absurd. Did anybody bother to do the least bit of research for this series?

[quote] If so, does that mean Luca doesn't consider himself gay?

Luca has not only labeled himself as gay, he's also said he's a gold star gay. No pussy ever. That's why all his blathering about how everyone is fluid and people can't be labeled is so stupid. He labels himself, and is not fluid.

R489, which gay critics have been part of this backlash?

r490 I'll have to find them again - I think it was the same guy (Daniel Mendelsohn) in the NYT literary rag who called bullshit on that horrid Hanya Yanagihara torture porn novel and it borderline homophobic musings on sexuality.

What was the "shocking secret" to be revealed per the show notes?

R492 I think likely that Fraser's "special friend" that he left behind in NY was an imaginary friend. Didn't exist. And the boy he connects with as they go to the concert also "vanishes" into thin air.... likely also a figment of Fraser's imagination. He's delusional.

So literally the guys he was meant to be into didn't exist?

He confesses that Mark (that was his name, right?) in NYC doesn't exist.

and it was ALL A DREAM!

Okay guys you have got me! The show no makes sense!! But I now have many, many hours of film to pull my meat to!

So in the end Fraser was really more schizophrenic than homosexual.

I had the impression Mark existed, but he was just a boy Fraser fantasized about but never was friends with. Then he overheard "Mark" saying something about catching Fraser staring at him in a creepy manner.

I also thought the boy at the concert existed, but, after his girlfriend showed up, Fraser went into fantasy mode. I did kind of like the idea of the most beautiful view in the world turning out to be mundane. (Probably the only thing I liked about the show except for appearances by Jonathan.)

Come to think of it, did Fraser's version of Jonathan actually exist?

[quote]Come to think of it, did Fraser's version of Jonathan actually exist?

Exactly. At the end it's like a gender-fluid bildungsroman 2001: Space Odyssey or The Sixth Sense. What actually happened? What's real? Maybe the bizarre scenes with mom when he slaps her hard are delusions too..

People have a hard time when the reality rug is pulled out from under them at the end of a piece of art. I like it, almost always.

Ah, once again with the 'if you didn't like it you just didn't get it/are too dumb to get it' line.

I loved this. Haters can fuck off. One trippy fantasy.

I do wonder why people here that seem to hate everything Luca does continue to watch his stuff.

R501 Au contraire. I think the more enlightened dissatisfaction is annoyance at "oh, it was all a dream."

My own quirky appreciation for questioning one's senses, challenging the foundational realities... is very far "too smart"...it's likely due to superficial interest in meditation and Buddhist/Taoist practices and drug abuse for decades. I admit my faults and respect those who are smarter than I.

Srsly.

In fiction, the device of having things not be real is cheap. It was summed up in the scene in the TV show "Dallas," where Pam walks into the bathroom and finds her late husband, Bobby wasn't dead, although the entire previous season was predicated on his death. The device of making a character be insane after using that character's point-of-view as a plot point is cheap, and is encapsulated in the term "pulp." If Fraser is delusional, then anything we see from his point-of-view is meaningless and a waste of time.

So Jonathan didn’t fuck Fraser with his big, beautiful dick?

So he was an unreliable narrator all along? Well, quite a high stakes revelation to be raised in literally the last episode especially since Fraser never was a "narrator" - we never heard any interior monologue and there were plenty of scenes he never witnessed so I don't get the point. As someone said above, it is a cheap trick -a deus ex machina that doesn't actually resolve any conflict so why pull a bunny out of the hat in the final act? If anyone had any doubt that Luca excels at the superficial and nothing else, this shows he really is just a hack who can fill a screen with pretty pictures but nothing more.

Also, still no gay sex - not even the 1950s fade away from separate marital beds - nada zip. But we had to watch that fat goth girl stick her cigarette stained tongue in another girls (or theys whatevs) mouth for what seemed like an eternity (that first scene in the episode was unnecessarily long). Again, how is any of this any better than what you get in straight porn use of girl/girl as straight male titilization? Fuck Luca

Did Luca just now watch the final episode of St. Elsewhere (80s cheesy sitcom where the final episode reveals the entire multiyear series was all a fiction of an autistic kid staring into a Christmas globe) and think "Wow - that is brilliant" let me take a few million of HBO money and show how it can done even better!

I guess it would get him off the hook for some of more glaring plot lines and holes - Chloe stripping, Jonathan and his ]lady friend trying to fuck him frazer from both ends, the unconformable physicality between mother and son, and Craigs admiration of the brothers ass - but odd way to fix your script problems by basically cheating and hoping the audience is too distracted by your pretty pictures that they miss the con.

done so amateruishly....the boy is super tweeky. wtf his problem???

R508, St. Elsewhere was absolutely not a cheesy sitcom.

MAY AS welll have been in black and white, horrible show, geesh. cheap in every way

Glad I didn't watch this.

Just finished. It was so lovely. Most explorations of adolescent sexual identity are gross but this wasn't cringey like CMBYN. I liked that there was no obvious secrecy or shame associated with physical attraction.

The female lead, Jordan Seamon, has the most enchanting face -- the camera loves it. I also liked that the lives of the adults made no sense, that is exactly how teenagers view adults. I thought the conclusion was beautiful.

the young male star is cute but so tweeky and dirty looking, i do hope he not strung out.

r513 What was the conclusion? I couldn't make it to the final episode...