My Theory on Borderline personality Disorder: They Are BRATS

OP = Joan Crawford.

There's zero link between "spoiling" someone and personality disorders

Your views reflect your own prejudices

BTW, many people don't even believe Borderline Personality is real

They are frustrating patients but some do go on to develop insight into the nature of their disorder. They suffer a lot themselves, as well as causing suffering to others.

They have a fairly high completed suicide rate amongst DSM V diagnoses.

Whether it’s “real” or not, there are people who share the traits, and they’re difficult.

I disagree, People with BPD seem to have a devouring need for love and approval, a desire so strong it takes over their lives and makes them willing to twist themselves to gain love and approval from others... and then destructive wildfire rages when it isn't enough.

Spoiled brats take love and approval for granted, and get irrationally angry when it isn't presented everywhere.

The women are usually incest survivors who can’t deal with their trauma and project it on to the world. Empathy for what happened to them, but those DaddyFuckers are usually toxic as fuck. The worst 3 people I’ve met in my life were incest survivors. As soon as I start hearing delusional talk in conversation like “I grew up with the best Dad!”, “My Daddy was the best Father!” I know it’s time to run for the hills. They’re also usually obsessed with hunting out Diddlers & Pedos in a really QAnon way, it’s how they address the deviance they experienced & internalized without acknowledging the real perpetrator (Daddy).

R3, my sister said that her therapist wrote BPD on something (can’t remember what), and it could be BiPolar Disorder ( but she doesn’t fit that diagnosis IMO), so I’m assuming it’s Borderline. That fits her. And our late mother, as well.

As a teen and 20-something, she was a hot mess and a terror. Her 30s were somewhat better. She takes something now, calls it her “crazy pills”, I don’t ask. She has done a lot of self-examination and work on her behavior. I’ve told her that she’s made lots of improvement, and how I’ve seen her grow.

So it is possible. But I have trouble being around her for too long (So do others). There have been times when, if she were just a friend, I’d have cut her off. I love her, and she can be very caring and generous, too.

Something I’ve noticed: as she’s gotten older and a little less volatile, she’s also become very rigid. I guess it’s a trade-off.

I have a patient who is borderline and very charming but manipulative as fuck. She’ll be nice at our visit but then turn around to complain about me for not giving her enough time in our sessions, which is a complete lie. Lying is like a drink of water for her and she doesn’t think it’s wrong because she justifies her lies. She’s burned so many bridges within her own family and with other mental health providers, as much as I don’t want her as a patient she’s likely stuck with me for the foreseeable future.

The thing with borderline personality disorder to remember is that people with this diagnosis have reactive moods which in turn translate into unstable and impulsive behavior. Behavior can be directed towards themselves or others. When it’s directed against other people it’s usually because there’s imagined or actual abandonment and/ or antagonism. But BPD is considered to be controversial diagnosis that’s often been given more to women or to people who carry traits of antisocial personality. There’s no cure except psychotherapy to help regulate emotions. BDPs are often the least-liked patients from a provider standpoint because if you’re not careful they can manipulate you in so many ways.

When I get a voicemail from a potential patient, and they say "No doctor has ever been able to help me", that is pathognomonic for borderline personality. I also think to myself "Well, I won't be able to help them either" and gently decline to see them. I am older now and don't have the energy for the drama.

You’re not wrong, OP

R9 and other Docs on these thread. In a hypothetical type context (names & situations changed), what is the most insane thing a BPD has admitted to or done?

BPD is a very real thing. My mom's coworker most probably had it and she made the workplace a hell for decades. Her moods dictated the whole mood in the office but since she was married to the boss she wasn't fired. In the end her husband killed himself, and everyone blamed the woman. I got on fairly well with her but when she turned against my mother I ended up cutting all contact with her alongside my parents. Everyone in our family is glad to not have to suffer her craziness anymore, although since she's the godmother of my sister there's an occasional contact. Still, we all feel sorry for her since it's obvious she was always at the mercy of her wild mood swings.

She certainly taught me to avoid too intense people.

R11 Sociopathic borderline. The worst.

Google search "Brian Cashman stalker".

It was horrible.

The problem is you don't realize they're brats. When they're in charm mode, they have the ability to somehow sense exactly what you've always wanted and needed in a partner or friend, and deliver it to you in a glowing package of good feelings and adoration.

Later, you wonder what happened. You search your behavior and your heart. You replay every conversation. They were so perfect! You were such a wonderful pair, and everything was heavenly! How did it go wrong? How can you get it back? You MUST be able to get it back somehow!

But the charming person was nothing but an act. The angry, irrational, unpredictable, scary, shark-eyed, emotional wreck is the real person, and you fell for a put-on.

The trail of tears and broken hearts and shattered lives BPDs leave behind them is horrifying.

My sister is some kind of bpd-narcissist-crazy, angry mercurial asshole who lacks the ability to stand outside herself and see the impact of her actions and words on other people. I don't have a relationship with her anymore after she threatened suicide and I called 911 for a welfare check. The cops took her to the psych ward for overnight observation but of course 10 yrs later this is still my fault because I had her committed or something. Whatever. There is no filling their gaping black hole where the heart should be. They have some embryonic type of emotional regulation that never develops or something. They take everything personally to the point of making shit up to fit their perceptions. They judge constantly to pre-empt any potential ego damage and assume the worst of everyone. Because they assume everyone operates the way they do. I have no answers. We grew up in the same family. She was always a huge nightmare. It's high drama all the time with little respite in the cycle when the dragon is sleeping.

BPDs will convince people that their victims are insane and I’ve seen BPDs drive good, innocent people to a nervous breakdown where that person’s reputation is ruined. They snap because they’ve been gaslit for years. In a perfect world, extreme BPDs would be sentenced to death for their crimes. Mental abuse should be a crime, I’ve seen too many lives destroyed. It is usually women too. Abusive men move on like a tornado, abusive women linger like a slow hurricane.

I don’t think so, OP. It‘s more because they have abnormal biochemical processes in the brain.

R17 I think the vast majority of BPDs are far more in control of their behavior then they let on.

Sure, OP. And sex abusers "just have a high libido", and Gay people "just haven't found the right opposite-sex person yet", and psychotics "are normal people who just like to talk to themselves". I believe BPD is based on not having an attachment to a mother figure, or sexual abuse. Those are pretty serious things for a child to go through and it would be nuts to think it wouldn't affect someone's mind seriously. Maybe you are the BRAT who doesn't understand the human experience involves some complexity. Grow up.

R11 when I worked jail psych as a relatively new psych DNP, I thought I’d be able to handle all the cases thrown at me because i had done extensive training as part of my practicum hours as it happened, at the county jail. But one case stood out when I found myself being manipulated by a sociopath likely BPD innate. He was an ex-chef in his 40s good-looking and charming, oh and in the big house for multiple financial fraud against his father and attempted murder for hire against his longterm partner (he’s gay). I think he trued to steal his dad’s house from under him by faking the deeds ti the house, and also took out huge loans in his dad’s name. As for trying to hire hitman to kill his partner, I don’t know the details except for making it look like attempted robbery gone bad. He presented as very remorseful most of the time but on the rare occasions that he does slip up, he’d lay blame on his victims for not catering to his own feelings and needs. For that they deserve death and financial ruin, I guess.

But he was a charmer and good conversationalist who knew how to engage you in conversations as if you guys were friends talking. He did that not only to me but others on the treatment team. We had a psychology trainee who gave out her cell phone number to him, that’s how good he was at manipulation.

What is the difference between narcissistic personality disorder and BPD? I'm confused. I was never able to understand it.

Also, R19 is right.

R21 main differences I would say are BOD have chronically unstable interpersonal relationships whereas in NPD this is not manifested so much. Also with BPD there’s the hallmark actual or threats of self-harm/ suicide which again is related to highly reactive mood. Impulsivity results in self-harm or retaliatory actions against those who are perceived as not responsive to the BPD individual’s needs.

^^^BPD, sorry for typos, typing on iPhone

One I knew who was diagnosed, and another I was fairly sure was all seemed to lack a potential for genuine committed relationship, whether it he platonic, or otherwise. I'm not certain these traits are necessarily hand in glove with the disorder, yet relationships of all sorts were transactional for them. They seemed incapable of any deep bonds, and incapable of any objectivity.

The seem to share many aspects with narcissists. They're capacity for revenge and holding grudges is quite similar. Each and every perceived slight is repayed 1, 000%. Often their revenge schemes ate what actually gets them out of bed each morning. Deep down though I believe they know they're pieces of shit. Many say irreparably damaged. They're very real indeed OP. Don't fool yourself.

Thanks, R22! So, there are always anger issues? What about the lack of empathy and (emotional) sadism, present in the NPDs?

Their capacity for revenge... oops.

I dont know if I have ever met a borderline. Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction would be a good example of borderline?

Glenn Close played a narcissist/psychopath. She said she'd studied them with real psychiatrists.

The famous people who I think are BPD are Teri Hatcher, who was molested as a child, and make-up mogul Jeffree Star. Angelina says she's BPD but she's a total NPD.

And OP, whatever your opinions may be, sneering at the suffering of abuse survivors is awful and gross.

R8, You’ve described my friends daughter. Since I’ve been on DL and got my DL psych degree (joking), she really manifests all that you wrote. Of course, he and his wife are raising the baby she had at 18. She’s not even interested in her daughter. And her mom has a restraining order against her because she got very violent with her a few years ago. But sad because she was not spoiled and a sweet young girl. The minute she hit teens, she was uncontrollable, manipulating and a real bitch. But it feels like she has a real mental illness of some sort. I don’t think she L ever find her happiness.

BPDs also flip on a dime. One second normal(ish), and then the next freezing you out or raving on about a perceived slight, lack of attention, etc. They are the type for which "walking on eggshells" was invented.

[quote]Angelina says she's BPD but she's a total NPD.

Incorrect. She is text book BPD, as was her mother.

Bingo R31. To a tee.

Who is a movie character that would seem to have BPD? I am still trying to picture it. Is self harm and extreme fear of rejection one of the main components ?

R31 Yes, I've experienced that very insecure aspect, coupled with the mood swings. They both seemed to cry alot after their explosions as well.

^^Anything with a dangerous stalker. Someone who starts out charming and/or acting like an innocent victim who slowly morphs into terrifying psycho.

R25 Individuals with BPD have anger that is intense, inappropriate or disproportionate, and uncontrollable. This translates into behavior; a good number of female inmates who’d committed murder are often diagnosed NPD. Many of the cases there is remorse for impulse behavior that led to deaths of their targets, unless they’re also sociopaths. NPDs are better at hiding anger when they do experience anger, partly because they’re aware of how outward actions reflect on how they’re perceived. Being perceived as brilliant or perfect is a part of grandiose sense of self.

NPDs lack empathy partly because they devalue other people/ other people’s feelings. Whatever empathy they may have towards others is superficial and weighed against entitlements within those specific interrelationships.

R29 Not all borderlines are abused and many abused people manage not to act like monsters. Because some sort of abuse and mistreatment is sadly common there are huge swaths of victims who aren't hateful psychos. There must be an additional factor to BPD besides trauma.

R33 Amy from Gone Girl is who I would categorize as a BPD with sociopathic traits.

Sorry meant to say “ good number of female inmates who’d committed murder are often diagnosed BPD.“

The inability to sustain relationships... I have seen them have long-term relationships, though. They’re not *healthy*, of course.

My BPD mother had a partner who stuck around because there was something wrong with HIM. He was extremely passive and she got him good and isolated from his family and friends. He was basically an abuse victim, like a battered spouse who was afraid to leave (But it was not physical abuse, it was emotional). It was probably the sickest relationship I’ve ever seen up close. Learned helplessness.

Anyway. If they find the right person, they can keep that person around with some codependent shit.

I thought therapists weren't supposed to talk about their patients? At least not with strangers. Wtf is wrong with you people?

R36/39, why only female inmates? Also, why do people talk mostly about women when BPD is mentioned? Is this a sexism thing, or...?

The problem with BPD is that the vast majority of people fit into that category, Most of us a fucked up in one way or another. I ghost people when I get bored of them.

Abnormality in personal traits resides at the far ends of the spectrum, so in a sense you’re correct in that we all have a bit of these traits on a spectrum. It’s just that we don’t have it in intensity and chronicity to earn us a diagnosis. The joke (or truth) in psych is that there’s no normal anymore. We really can’t say to people what is “normal”, for instance we can’t say to a grieving person going on a year of bereavement for a loved one, that she’s not normal in her grief or way of grieving is not normal. Now we frame it in terms of whether or not it’s healthy or conducive to health and interpersonal relationships.

What is normal anyways when we refer to personality traits. Because even so-called good traits can become bad when taken to extremes. Being frugal is a good trait but when taken to extremes you’re a cheapskate. Having awareness and consideration of self/ other people is a good thing. But do it in extreme then you become anxious or veer towards avoidant personality. It’s not black or white but a continuum across the spectrum.

Ghosting isn’t a pathological trait, at least not yet. People fall back on mental health too readily to explain behavior that doesn’t have anything to do with pathopsychology.

R42 it’s definitely diagnosed more in females than males. Similarly, antisocial and schizoid personality traits are manifested in males more than females. There are some studies that examine gender, gender roles/ traits as they relate to personality disorder diagnoses. The theory is that behaving in stereotypical gender traits will steer you towards being diagnosed with certain personality disorders when you exhibit symptoms that fit the diagnostic criteria.

I liked your analysis.

R44 psychiatry itself has made people over analyze their behavior and will drive someone to a breakdown. I also noticed that a lot of BPD cases seem to enjoy going to therapy because I believe they’re learning the ropes. Many of them are always accusing everyone around them of being insane, so they study psychology books etc to help in their armchair gaslighting diagnoses.

When I get a voicemail from a potential patient, and they say "No doctor has ever been able to help me", that is pathognomonic for borderline personality. I also think to myself "Well, I won't be able to help them either" and gently decline to see them. I am older now and don't have the energy for the drama.

Do you realise how cuntish you sound? You call yourself a professional? If you were a professional you'd relish the challenge to try to help someone. You're being paid, they're not a stranger at the weekend, they're a potential patient. I guess though, you're old and don't have the energy. Perhaps it's time to give up the game? You sound narcissistic more than anything.

BUT THERE WERE THREE OF US IN THE MARRIAGE!!!

I think a lot of it does lie in not having those early attachments to a mother figure. Their brains are scattered, they're innately insecure and perceive the whole world as being against them; they've not been loved.

Diana was the victim of an adulterous husband and his conniving whore.

I’m going to diagnosis R46 as BPD.

-Lead with a low blow insult to invoke a defensiveness.

-Move onto degradation of identity, insults to important parts of victim’s life (career) and attack credibility.

-Show performative empathy in argument and grandiosely show it’s for the better good of mankind.

-Completely devalue and dismiss. Become fatalistic.

-Project own mental instability to victim.

Wow, that post was like a crash course example of a psychotic outburst. Seek help, except no one wants to treat you because Borderlines can’t be cured.

R46, by far the majority of MH people I know consider Borderlines their most challenging patients.

r49 Sweetie, you're correct, but Diana was damaged a long time before she met Charles. Her mother was a cunt .

No, r50, but you'd have to wonder about a mental health care provider who frequents Data Lounge, making sweeping generalizations, even diagnosing other posters.

You ever fuck on coke, R53 ?

I’m curious as to what 46 said, but I have them blocked. Guess I know why.

R50 sounds scary and is doing exactly what he's accusing the other person of doing. Hope they're not a healthcare provider.

r46 You should never call a narcissist out on their narcissism, r50 is what happens.

R56 if anyone sounds scary it was R46 being a psycho.

Data Lounge is probably not the best place to come looking for empathy or compassion

"If you were a professional you'd relish the challenge to try to help someone."

I have a few friends who are psychiatrists or psychologists, and most of them refuse to work with BPDs. That's largely because they don't think they can anything to help those people, but it's also because they don't want to deal with the lies and drama and false accusations against themselves and others, and because they'd really prefer to work with people they can help. I do know one woman who spent several years working with BPD cases, she believed she could help them cope with daily life and hold down jobs and stay in relationships, but she got into another specialty after a few years.

But yeah, anyone who goes around saying "No doctor has been able to help me" is probably noncompliant, refusing to make any changes or work towards a cure.

I have a sister who I'm convinced is BPD and she's been like that since birth. I'm convinced that at least to a degree, our personalities are what we're born with, then modified by our life experiences. Also, if you lack self-insight and have been unable to learn it, you can't see your problems and thus won't be able to change yourself.

Something I learned from dealing with a parent with dementia is that even people who aren't living in reality 24/7 can manage to pull themselves together and put on a convincing show when they really need to. They will present as being sane and normal, and then eventually either drop the pretense, either through exhaustion or when they know it's no longer necessary. Afterwards, they revert to what is normal behavior for them, which is definitely abnormal to onlookers. I believe it's the same with the personality disordered, who can tell when they need to present as sane and normal, and when it's safe for them to take off that mask and be themselves again. Ugh.

R19 shows it's true homophobic colours.

R46 - an angry borderline feeling the sting of an imagined rejection.

I imagine a lot of BPD patients don’t actually want help and just enjoy playing games and getting attention from their therapists/psychiatrists.

I have a relative who has BPD. I've witnessed her seething rage at perceived slights. Her jealousy of siblings is unbelievable. At first, I was sympathetic, but she's just a manipulative, selfish, and mean person.

She stole $1million from her parents. At a family party a completely innocuous comment from her elderly father sent her into a complete meltdown.

Wow, the crazy R50 just keeps attacking R46! This thread attracted the nutjobs.

Prince Charlie, what does a BPD meltdown look like? After reading all this, I suspect a former colleague of mine fits the criteria. She had terrifying meltdowns. They weren't spontaneous and uncontrollable though. She waited until the right people were there to see.

[quote]I have a relative who has BPD. I've witnessed her seething rage at perceived slights. Her jealousy of siblings is unbelievable.

I could have written this word for word. And I'll add......deep envy (maybe even hate) of anyone happy and successful in their lives. Stalking (online), perpetual victimhood, zero interest in others while expecting 24/7 attention and emotional support. Use people for as long as they are useful, then discard. Photographic memory of any perceived slight going back decades, but NO memory of their own selfish and insensitive behavior. Emotional vampires.

[quote]Who is a movie character that would seem to have BPD?

Jennifer Jason Leigh in Single White Female.

R66 is R46 posting from multiple accounts to feign supporters, continuing their gaslighting behavior.

Someone has an uncalled for, histrionic outburst in R46 then starts calling out the poster who breaks down their behavior in said post and calling them crazy. Totally BPD.

I’m sure COVID and all this daily hatred isn’t helping people either. I’m starting to think I may have some traits of BPD myself lol. I don’t destroy other people but I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t give people who’ve wronged me the time of day anymore.

r70 That's not BDP, that's pretty rational and understanding

My experience of a BPD person, a fellow grad student whom I kept up with. First, it's quite real. I'm sure she wasn't molested and I know she wasn't spoiled, rather her odious mother needed to be the center of attention and - equally important - her father was useless. All her intimate relationships collapsed. In one of them she created lasting damage and of course thought what she did was perfectly justifiable (I dropped her on account of what she did there). In addition to her responsibility problem she had a spending problem and a drinking problem.

Otoh, she maintained some friendships for years, and was very successful professionally. So she's fine in not-emotionally-too-close situations. I guess you don't have to have all the diagnostic items to have BPD. A pretty knowledgeable acquaintance of mine said that at the core are shame and a lack of impulse control, these express a little differently in different people.

R72, that’s my sister.

I really find the “walking on eggshells” litmus test useful in my personal life. Maybe it’s not the textbook way to tell if someone has BPD, but it’s helpful to me. It’s exhausting to spend time with her, because even if she’s having a “good day”, she’s liable to lash out at the tiniest thing. It comes out of nowhere, like a squall.

I’ve found that when they have you at their mercy, they really let themselves act out. If you’re a passenger in their car, or en employee who really needs the job, or their child... When you’re in their “territory”, you’re in trouble. If you have equal footing or an easy exit, they’re a lot nicer.

Oh man, I could do this for paragraphs. Suffice to say, I have very sensitive feelers for these personalities. It’s taken me 50 years to develop the awareness through painful experience, but I’ve got it now.

[quote] although since she's the godmother of my sister there's an occasional contact.

What? What function does a godmother have in one’s life, other than a one-time stand-in thing?

And other than the fairy variety?

In my experience, people who are adopted seem to have high(er) rates of borderline personality disorder.

I am bipolar and went through a period where I was convinced I was a borderline. I was working with a psychologist at the time (who helped me tremendously, and -- cliched as it sounds -- changed my life). One day, after working with him closely for a couple of years, I started our session by crying profusely.

"I need to know something," I said. "Please tell me the truth. Am I a borderline?"

After assuring me I wasn't, we went on to say that practitioners develop a sixth sense about borderlines. He said it was like a feeling in the pit of his stomach during the very first session, and his mentor had described a similar sensation.

Interesting about the pit of the stomach. I had a roommate that had BPD, now that I look back. I always had that feeling of dread when I was in the house. She was a cutter and a silent treatment practitioner. She would take offense at something( I never knew what and everyone was supposed to intuit whatever it was they had done) and not speak for days. I was so glad to move far away, but sometimes I think about her kids and feel bad for them.

R75, that’s my experience, too. It’s not scientific at all, but I have developed an awareness for it. My body tells me.

One time I found myself chatting with an older woman in a store, as we were both looking at the same item. She was nice and friendly, but almost immediately, I noticed that I was sort of shielding myself from her. To me, there’s a sort of spark or quickness in their eyes when they’re sizing you up.

R6, Are you aware that almost every young woman in the US is sexually molested or abused to some degree while still a child? No, most aren't like Oprah Winfrey who claims she began to thrive on the attention. In fact it's a deeply troubling, traumatic experience for almost everyone.

I don't know the current statistics of how many very young boys are also molested but I'm sure their feelings of powerlessness also stay with them for a very long time.

R78, I was at a college party one time, back in the ‘90s. A group of women were sitting on the stairs in a quieter part of the party. Somehow the talk turned to being molested or abused, and every single woman there had a story. Some were worse than others, but everyone had a story about being forced to perform or endure a sex act. This was a group of maybe eight women. I think the most we can hope for is a non-violent and single experience. It’s much worse when it’s sustained over a long period of time and not believed.

I suspect it’s nearly universal for boys, too. And even more shame-inducing (if that’s a word).

R78 so... what...? We’re supposed to forgive them when they turn into 20,30,40 year old psycho bitches who ruin people’s lives because of it. I think not.

R80, Of course we're not supposed to forgive anyone who turns into a psycho bitch.

I'm just saying that since abuse and molestation is nearly universal in the US not all women who've been through hellacious experiences are total psycho bitches, just as not all men who have likewise endured similar trauma when young are angry nut cases.

R75 sounds like you had one or multiple BPDs in your life. They’re very good at projecting their symptoms onto others, to the point where they convince you that you’re the worst and craziest person. I’ve seen BPDs leave a trail of formerly bright, cheerful people that they turned into hollowed out, miserable beings.

I think women are diagnosed with it much more because we allow histrionics with women. If a man did the stuff women do they’d be locked up. Just watch one of those housewives shows and you’ll see 20 incidences of BPD behavior per episode.

Isn't being sane and relatively mentally healthy a type of privilege now, and it should be checked.

There is IMO opinion multiple forms of BPDs and people can vacillate in them. A BPD who can control their outbursts is very scary, essentially a controlled psychopath. These people will do things for years and never get caught. They’re silent and harder to spot.

R83, Agreed. Reading this thread I'm remembering how many psycho women bosses, coworkers, and others I've encountered over the years who'd rage out of control at the least provocation. Always there was a very lame excuse of their outrageous behavior.

Wish there was at least a bad excuse that they were drunk or on drugs. Nope.Just emotionally totally unstable and feeling entitled to throw a screaming fit like a three-year-old spoiled brat.

R86 they excuse their crazy behavior by using their period as an excuse. “Ooopsey! Guess I just need a chocolate bar!”

I can always spot them at work with their fake smiles but it’s that look in their eyes that flashes for a nanosecond when the mask drops.

Reading these comments makes me so sad. A good friend of mine‘s ex-wife has borderline personality disorder, and since she hit puberty their teenage daughter seems to be exhibiting many of the same symptoms. The feelings of dread when she is around and of walking on eggshells are difficult to deal with.

It’s especially poignant because she was such a happy child, but when she hit puberty it was like something inside of her brain changed, and then mommy dearest destabilized her further. I think it’s a combination of genetics and environment that create BPD.

How do so many smart men fall for toxic, abusive women? Why do they remain in painfully self-destructive relationships when their higher intelligence knows better? Many men frequently cite, “but I love her.” Do they love these women or have they been brainwashed by abusive personalities? Are they confusing love with dependence on their partner/torturer—a kind of Stockholm Syndrome?

Emotional and physical abuse wears you down over time. It erodes your confidence, independence, sense of efficacy and good judgment. Successful abusers use brainwashing tactics to disassemble your personality and extinguish your natural responses to abuse. In other words, you become numb and submissive instead of fleeing or fighting back in the face of her abuse.

Abusive women establish control over their targets by using “brainwashing tactics similar to those used on prisoners of war, hostages, or members of a cult”. Most abusers instinctively know these behaviors. Their behavior is mostly unconscious; they’re natural predators. However, some abusive women know exactly what they’re doing. In such cases, I’d argue that they’re sociopaths or have BPD.

Brainwashing Techniques

In the 1950s, psychologist Robert Jay Lifton studied POW’s from the Korean War and Chinese prison camps. He concluded that these soldiers “underwent a multi-step process that began with attacks on the prisoner’s sense of self and ended with what appeared to be a change in beliefs”. Lifton defined 10 brainwashing steps that occur in 3 stages.

Stage I: Breaking Down the Self

1. Assault on Identity. “You are not who you think you are.” This step is comprised of an unrelenting attack on your identity or ego. For example, You’re a jerk. You’re a loser. You’re selfish. You don’t deserve me. You don’t have any friends. Your family doesn’t care about you. You don’t make enough money. These kinds of attacks have a destabilizing effect that breaks your stride and keeps you off kilter. The assault continues until you become “exhausted, confused and disoriented,” which causes your sense of self, beliefs and values to weaken.

2. Guilt. “You are bad.” Once your identity crisis sets in, you’re then criticized for offenses great, small and imaginary. You snore. You’re not sensitive enough. You’re too sensitive. You breathe wrong. You blink too much. You don’t fold the towels correctly. You never do this. You always do that. Why can’t you be more like so and so? The constant arguments and criticisms that cast you as the bad guy make you believe you deserve to be punished and treated badly. You feel a general sense of shame, that you’re wrong and that everything you do, don’t do, say or don’t say is wrong.

Humiliation and shaming tactics destroy your confidence and make you feel bad about yourself, which puts you in a malleable and submissive state. Shame is a form of paralysis. Inducing a sense of shame doesn’t just make you feel bad; it makes you believe that you are bad.

3. Self-Betrayal. “Agree with me that you are bad.” Once you’re disoriented and feeling a pervasive sense of guilt and shame, she can manipulate you into going against your own best interests. You forsake your own needs and make choices that are detrimental to your well-being. This is when an abusive spouse or girlfriend may begin to isolate you and/or get you to turn against friends and family. The betrayal of yourself, your beliefs and the people to whom you were once loyal increases feelings of shame, guilt and loss and also makes you easier to control.

4. Breaking Point. “Who am I, where am I and what am I supposed to do?” You no longer know who you are. You’re confused and disoriented from gaslighting and being fed a distorted version of yourself and reality. You may feel like you’re “the crazy one” and/or feel depressed, anxious, traumatized and a host of other negative emotional and physical symptoms like insomnia, paranoia and digestive problems.

You question your judgment, perceptions and sense of reality. She tells you she loves you yet continues to treat you horribly. You believe she loves you and that you must be a colossal jerk for her to always be so upset. If she’s successfully isolated you or gotten you to isolate yourself, you can’t reality test or receive outside support. By this time, she’s made you totally dependent upon her and solely focused upon pleasing her, gaining her approval and avoiding her wrath or disapproval. You probably feel completely alone. Alternatively, if you’re still in contact with friends and family, you fear that if you tell them what’s going on that they wouldn’t believe you or wouldn’t understand.

Stage II: The Possibility of Salvation

5. Leniency. “I can help you.” This is what I like to call the tyranny of small mercies. Periodically, this kind of woman will offer you some small kindness or you’ll have a “fun” afternoon together in which she appears normal. Because your perception has been so warped, the tiniest act of kindness or absence of overt hostility and/or icy withdrawal fosters gratitude, relief and a sense of adoration within you. In reality, she’s not kind and she’s not normal.

The disparity between her bad behavior and good/neutral behavior is so great that the simple act of heating up a can of soup for you makes her seem like Lady Benevolence. Her minuscule and infrequent acts of normalcy cause you to romanticize her. “This is why I love her. She can be so sweet.” It also causes you to experience a destructive sense of false hope. “If only she could be this way all the time. Maybe she will if I just try harder to please her.” The only way you can please this kind of woman is by continuing to allow her to harm you, that is, until she starts to resent you for becoming a doormat that she demanded you be.

6. Compulsion to Confess. “You can help yourself.” You’re so grateful for the small kindnesses she bestows in between periods of covert and overt abuse that you agree with her criticisms and devaluations. For example, you agree that your friends are bad for you and that your family is controlling and dysfunctional (um, hello, pot meet kettle). You promise to be more attentive and sensitive to her needs and see your needs as evidence of your selfishness.

Alternatively, you agree with her just to make the rages, derision and accusations stop. By the way, this is why torture techniques don’t work for intelligence purposes. People will say anything to make the torture stop. By this time, your personality has changed. You’re hypervigilant to her moods and ego gratification demands and wishes.

You’re overwhelmed and confused by her accusations and criticisms. Subsequently, you feel a compounded sense of shame. However, you’re so disoriented that you don’t know what you’re guilty of anymore. You just feel wrong.

The Goal: Pointless Control with No End to the Abuse

Individuals or groups who use brainwashing techniques are deliberately trying to convert followers, change political allegiance or get people to buy their brand of soda. The ultimate goal is to breakdown your identity and replace your belief system with their doctrines in order to make you an obedient follower. Once they achieve their aims, the psychological torture stops because you’ve become a faithful acolyte.

Unlike professional terrorists, cult leaders and prison camp commandants, most abusive narcissistic, borderline, histrionic and sociopathic wives and girlfriends don’t have an end goal for their brainwashing techniques. They don’t know what they want. They just know that they want to control you in order to feel in control of themselves. This is why they don’t progress past the sixth brainwashing step and complete the process through the third stage, Rebuilding the Self.

By keeping you stuck in the Possibility of Salvation stage, you become locked into perpetual hoop jumping mode. She says if you do x, y and z she’ll finally be happy. You do x, y and z and then she either has a new set of expectations, demands and requirements or tells you that you didn’t do x, y and z to her satisfaction or that you only did it to make her happy not because you wanted to do it. You’re caught in a maddening cycle of trying to please her and not being able to please her with no relief or “salvation” in sight.

Oftentimes, abusive borderline, narcissistic and histrionic women’s moods, beliefs and realities change from day to day and, in extreme cases, minute to minute. They want whatever their current mood or insecurity dictates and change their beliefs, demands and perceptions accordingly. The only doctrine they offer is, “You’re wrong and bad” and “It’s all about me, my needs and my feelings” and “you need to fight for me” or “you need to fight for this relationship” (never mind that she is the one who is destroying it). This keeps you destabilized and in a perpetual state of guilt, shame, hypervigilance and confusion.

She puts you into no-win situations, double binds and keeps raising the bar of her expectations for as long as you let her. You never get to reach the third stage of a new identity that brings some relief. She keeps you stuck in the cycle of abuse where she will psychologically torture you until there’s nothing left of you.

R67, I couldn't believe half the stuff my relative did. The woman is in early fifties, and she's still angry about what happened to her in her adolescence.

Many of us couldn't figure out the origins of this disorder. Her father is a Type A, domineering, extremely successful professional. Her mother was a traditional housewife, but she wasn't a wilting violet. Her parents are now elderly and in declining health. My relative hasn't had a regular job in decades. She spends her days floating between her parents' home and their summer home, whiling away the hours on social media. She is obsessed with a certain celebrity.

There's a history of depression on both sides of her family, and that no doubt contributed to her condition.

Her siblings are very successful, and she has alienated one completely, another is exasperated, and a third still enables her.

A few years ago, she was visiting a friend near me, and I met her for dinner. She arrived more than an hour late. At dinner she told me of an incident with her family a few weeks before. The child of a close friend (who really was more of an acquaintance but from what I understand of BPD...new acquaintances can suddenly become intimate friends) had died, and my cousin claimed to have planned the child's funeral for the sake of the mother. When she came back to her parents' home that night, her father commented on a trivial matter. Well, it set his daughter off...a big blow up ensued. As she related this to me, I could her anger boiling inside her. And the comment was something akin to some celebrity's appearance.

Then, this past year at a family holiday party, her father asked the assembled relatives to tell everyone what they were up to. Some of us hadn't seen each other in a very long time. There were people at the party at various stages of their lives and careers. My uncle said without malice at all that he realized some were more successful than others. His daughter took it as a dig at her. You could see the rage come over her, and she stormed out of the party muttering as she passed me talking to one of her siblings, "I can't believe he said that...I fucking hate him."

I couldn't believe it. Her sibling just sighed in resignation.

And when her father dies, she'll be wailing and throwing herself on top of his coffin in grief!

R94. Your relative sounds like a real piece of work, but this was still an asshole comment. I have no doubt he said it on purpose to inflame.

[quote]There were people at the party at various stages of their lives and careers. My uncle said without malice at all that he realized some were more successful than others.

"How do so many smart men fall for toxic, abusive women?"

Honestly, I think a lot of straight men don't really think it matters what kind of personality his woman has. If she's attractive, she caters to him, the sex is good, and she gets preggers… he doesn't care if she has a temper or doesn't like his friends, a guy's gotta put up with some shit if he wants regular sex and his house cleaned and kids, you know? You can tune it out, that's what ESPN is for.

Seriously, a lot of straight men don't put a lot of mental effort into their relationships or pay any attention to red flags, and for the most part it works for them. But It makes them incredibly vulnerable to women who are manipulative, or toxic and able to fake normalcy. Try turning out of relationship issues around a woman with a personality disorder, and she will fuck over every aspect of your life.

R96 so many straight men get trapped by psycho women. Gays spend our youths around batshit women and watching Fatal Attraction, while straights are playing baseball & fishing. They have no filter for crazy behavior so they make prime targets. It’s also why straight women don’t like a gay around in marriage years, because we’ll expose the insanity. They like their men to have limited contact with their other doofus str8s and for them to all be clueless together, drinking beer and knocking a golf ball around. “She sure was mad this morning, man... it was scary!” “Well, what ya gunna do?! Want another beer?” “Yep!”

My dad is a prime example of what 96/97 are saying. He’s a big lug, just wants to do his thing and my stepmother snared him with long gone sex and minimal cuteness thirty years ago. Now he does nothing but complain about how crazy she is, but I find it hard to sympathize since he could’ve gotten a divorce by now. She’s completely dependent on him since she has a host of mysterious medical maladies and can’t leave the house or do much of anything except get attention on Facebook from strangers. She’s a black hole who will probably live forever. Every time I talk to my dad, about once a week, she’s “so sick.” It seems impossible to get any sicker than she is, but she manages to be the sickest gal in town, in the world. Back in the nineties she said she had chronic fatigue but that has morphed into a host of other things that I can’t keep track of. She’s also got a hippy dippy insincere personality that she wields like a jackhammer. In photos, if you look at her eyes, they look satanic.

I've only known one person who was diagnosed with BPD: a male coworker. He was the nicest man I had ever met...until he stopped taking his medicine. Some days he'd be a ball of anger, just waiting for someone to set him off. Then he'd blow up at them. It was like a rocket taking off. Even if you pointed out he was wrong, a rocket can't just turn around and come back to earth. An hour or two later, after he had calmed down, he'd come over to apologize and talk about the bed things he'd seen in his earlier career as an EMT. Everyone had to walk on eggshells around him. I felt bad for his wife, but they were very religious and she would have never left him. I think the stress impacted their kid, though, who got in trouble with the law.

I'm sure my mother has this. She is passive out in public, but with her family, she would regularly yell and scream. She also liked to embarrass you in front of your friends and other family members. And she was a help-rejecting complainer, unloading her problems on you for hours at a time but shooting down every suggestion you offered. Even her own mother said "When _____ is miserable, she wants everybody else to be miserable, too." One of her hallmark behaviors was to yell at you loudly for something insignificant. An hour later, she act cheerfully towards you as if nothing had happened an hour ago. If you weren't ready to be cheerful back, then she'd yell at you for being negative and holding a grudge.

Once I moved out of her house, I'd stop taking her phone calls. She didn't like this because she's a codependent person who refers to me as her "security". Once she realized there were consequences for her behavior, she reluctantly modified it. She still continued to browbeat my passive dad, though,

Wow, at first I wondered why this thread focused so much on women - in a gay forum, no less - but gradually it has become what it is: mommy didn't love me so all women are crazy and it is my superpower as a gay man to reveal this truth to their hot but clueless straight husbands who will thank me profusely in the garage.

[quote] It’s also why straight women don’t like a gay around in marriage years, because we’ll expose the insanity.

Why didn't you warn him beforehand? Kind of too late after they're married and especially after kids.

R101 eat shit & die, Frau or Hag Fag Clitsucker! Whichever you are.

Something in the water?

My theory on schizophrenia: they're just attention seekers with wild imaginations

My theory on schizophrenia: they're just attention seekers with wild imaginations

[quote] What? What function does a godmother have in one’s life, other than a one-time stand-in thing? And other than the fairy variety?

Well in this case it's mostly about the old friendship my family had with the woman. She's the godmother of my older sister and the woman has always been very careful about keeping her craziness hidden with my sister. That's why for a long time my sister defended the woman and refused to totally believe her crazy antics. I was actually the same until I spend some time with her. The woman was always 'on', the intensity was always simmering under the surface. She never attacked me but I witnessed quite a few times her getting totally enraged by some real or imagined slight by the clients or "enemies".

The thing is she can be a very nice person, especially if she feels you're on her side. She used to baby sit me and my siblings a lot when we were kids, and then my sisters in their teens did the same to her kids. That's why she was a godmother to my sister, and there was a deep connection between our families. My mother was sort of a mother figure to her and she wasn't scared of the woman. My parents didn't tell us kids all the stories about the woman and her fights with her husband until much later. It seems it was always a wild ride with the woman but my parents kept us in dark about since the woman was never a threat to us. To my knowledge she was actually always a good mother who's still very close with her kids, who btw are all boys.

Obviously I can't be sure if she even has BPD but if she has it seems they can be normal to a point with people who are part of their inner circle.

And BTW, my parents who are both over 80 still buy a Christmas gift to their godson who recently celebrated his 50th birthday. I have one godson and my last gift to him was for his confirmation.

I don't think I've ever made acquaintance with a person with Borderline Personality Disorder. Where do you all meet such characters?

You probably have met people with borderline personality disorder, but if you have good boundaries you probably did not end up in a relationship with them. My partner’s ex-wife has BPD and dealing with her has made me realize that I have encountered people like her in the past, but my instincts told me to drift away from them (running away is a bad idea because it sets off their prey drive).

My partner is on the autism spectrum, and I think that may have contributed to him ending up in a relationship with someone who has BPD.

So I got stuck into dealing with this person because she and my partner share a child together. It’s been a real education to say the least.

My Grandmother was a psychopath. My Mother and her eight sisters (I've never met her four Brothers) are all very damaged. BPD would be a generous diagnosis for any of them.

Maybe having 13 kids did her in.

R112 She had nineteen, five died in infancy and one at seventeen.

She was completely evil though, my Mother wouldn't allow us to be alone with her.

Sure, Jan.

My Grandmother was born in 1892, infant mortality was a bit higher in the 1910's. She was 49 when my Mother was born.

R115, your grandma gave birth at age 49? After 44, she probably thought she could finally have sex without worrying about getting knocked up again. No wonder she was pissed at the universe.

She had 2 more kids after that, last one at 52 who is mentally handicapped and still alive My oldest Uncle would-be 112 now if he was still around.

R111, I believe you. My grandmother has a similar story. I can’t prove that it’s hereditary, but I think some of my aunts turned out okay and two inherited it. And each of those two passed it down to one of their daughters, while the others didn’t get it. One of those two didn’t have children, so the buck stops there. The other has two children, but they are boys and the father is raising them. Wishing them luck.

OP-Abandonment and abuse are frequently cited as reasons that BPD forms, so the opposite of "being spoiled."

Wow, so many assholes on thid thread!

Perpetual victim BPD @ R120

I had a relationship with a guy who my therapist was pretty sure exhibited the characteristics and after reading about it I agreed. I needed the therapist because of the relationship. It's not just women.

Perpetual asshole at R121

I had a boss (a gay male) who could instantly change from being charming to throwing a tantrum....and then back to charming again a few minutes later. After a while, staff persons felt like a battered spouse.

This guy I mentioned in R122 could rage, cry, cause all kinds of disruption, or angrily brood in silence, for an hour-long drive to go to my relatives for Thanksgiving, then go inside and be the most relaxed, happy, charming person - and not like an act, he would just change - while I was wiped out and upset and everyone would be all, "What's the matter with you?"

I've posted this before but my mother used to have temper tantrums where she'd behave EXACTLY like Joan Crawford in "Mommie Dearest." And I was Christina, and yes, it was that ridiculous. I would have laughed in her face if I wasn't so terrified. Dunaway should have gotten the Oscar for that performance rather than ridicule. It was an exact demonstration of a woman with BPD.

[R126] Can you provide examples? Did she dig out roses or make you eat old meat?!

I know a woman who I'm pretty sure is borderline, if not full blown NPD. She's IVY league educated (which she'll tell you on meeting her) and can be either very charming or ice cold depending in the day. She worked her way up her profession and in each new job she'd rave about the people she loved there and rant about those she didn't. Gradually those she loved moved to her shit list too, and I remember listening slack jawed as she told of stalking her (previously adored) gay coworker home because I think he lies about his wealth.

In her last two positions she basically reached the highest level and got fired from both for her bullying and manipulative ways. She pretends to be woker than thou, yet bullied the only African American in her dept into leaving among many other things. I'm not going to lie, I screamed with delight at her well deserved cummupance.

She's a heinous beastie and a veritable cunt.

R125, my late mother would do the same. After many years I came to view it as a kind of purging. Her fear and frustration would build up inside her and it was like a pimple filling up with pus. She’d unleash it, and would feel better after. But ONLY after she’d gotten YOU worked up. If you remained calm and unperturbed during her diatribe, it wouldn’t make her better. It wasn’t just venting, which is understandable. She had to transfer the pain to someone else and see them suffer. If you didn’t lose control, too, it made her tantrum harder.

Even though I had come to recognize this pattern in her behavior, I usually fell for it. Sometimes it was easier to give her the fight she was looking for, so we could get to the satisfied and relieved version of her.

“See? I just need to express it and then it’s over. I don’t let things fester like your father did. It’s not healthy to hold in your emotions!” *smug, satisfied sigh*

[quote] in each new job she'd rave about the people she loved there and rant about those she didn't

That sounds familiar. With my mother, there's not much middle ground. She loves, loves, loves something or absolutely hates it. A hamburger, a movie, her day, a person. Nothing is ever just "ok" or "fine".

Exactly R130, just one imagined slight and then love turns to hate. This person loves confrontation too, and gets into it with strangers over the most stupid shit. She's exausting.

-R128

Exactly R130, just one imagined slight and then love turns to hate. This person loves confrontation too, and gets into it with strangers over the most stupid shit. She's exausting.

-R128

R129, my mother exhibited the same behavior. She seemed to thrive on emotionally charged fights. She'd call names, she'd bring up decade-old embarrassing memories to throw you off, and she'd sometimes say things that were very difficult to forget and forgive. She would get frustrated that my passive dad would just leave rather than rise to the occasion. She seemed to love the adrenaline that flowed when arguments escalated. Strangely enough, she only did this with family, and she was too inhibited to show this side of herself to strangers or friends.

As a child, I was once sick in bed. I couldn't get my prescription medicine down, and for 10 minutes, she was screaming at me and throwing things around my room. (Yeah, as if that really made me more willing to try again to take my medicine.) A neighbor across the street knocked on the door, and suddenly Mom did a 180. "Oh, Hiiiiiiiiiiiii! How ARE you? Come in! What's going on?!" She was now the most charming, cheerful person ever. The neighbor had just randomly visited my mom, but I suspect she heard the meltdown from across the street and came over to defuse things. So many times, my mom's mood has changed completely due to the ring of the telephone or a knock at the door.

Here's another classic type of exchange:

Mom: We need a new refrigerator.

Dad: The refrigerator works fine, and it's just a few years old.

Mom: You always have to be in control when it comes to money, don't you?

Dad: I'm just trying to help us save money. We'll need a new car in a few years.

Mom: Do what you want. You always do anyway. You never care about what I want.

Dad: Go ahead then. Buy your new refrigerator if it means that much to you.

Mom: NO. I DON'T WANT a refrigerator now.

Dad: Go buy you a refrigerator.

Mom. NO.

At this point, my dad gets confused about why they're fighting. He's offering to get her what she originally said she wanted, but she doesn't want that now. Instead she wants to fight with my dad for three hours, and remind him of all his faults and everything he ever did that upset her. She screams and cries, and if my dad tries to defend himself or point out something negative about her, she escalates things by getting louder, angrier, and meaner. My dad learns his lesson and in the future just says "ok" to everything she says she wants to try to avoid a meltdown.

Sorry to read that R133 and I have seen that pattern. It's appalling.

Long, however, worth reading, IMHO...

There are some misconceptions of what BPD is or is it on this thread, however, one poster in particular is spot on, hence I’m assuming not only was this person subjected to a BPD in a very meaningful way, they have probably gone to therapy in order to deal with their own issues previous to meeting the BPD, and prior to ending contact with the BPD.

1) BPDs cannot control or regulate their anger. This is the primary characteristic of a BPD. They fly off the handle, and it matters not if their anger is justified or incorrectly perceived. When talking to a BPD reasonably and logically, they cannot return this in kind, because they relate to everyone as if there’s already a deficit in play. You are always arguing your position from a place that they view as not relative to what is actually happening, hence, they do not hear you, nor do they EVER admit they’re wrong, or do they admit they could be wrong. In their mind, they are right, and that’s all they inform themselves with, relative to all variables and circumstances, thereof.

2) A BPD’s “mask” isn’t a mask at all, in the way we generally view a mask: to be a one sided object, hiding the true personality. No. It is a dual sided mask. The presentation is one constructed specifically in romantic relationships, to create the relationship via what people perceive to be normal, romantic behaviors expressed in the beginning of most romantic relationships. They’re extra sweet, kind, laugh at all of your jokes, agree with everything you say, and modify their behaviors to mirror what they believe you want, whether it’s via lots of sex, or acting piously and virginally. They’re able to be chameleons, because they believe that “acting” like your perfect partner, is what constitutes as actually BEING a good and “perfect” partner. They do this because they’re lacking the ability to draw from normal, interpersonal relationships, because they learned in childhood that relationships were transactional, e.g; “If I’m a good son/daughter, my mom will allow me to spend the night at my best friend’s house”, or”If I’m good for the next X amount of months, Santa will bring me a bicycle”. Somewhere in their childhood, they were taught that expressing a negative emotion, or that saying something Mommy/Daddy didn’t like, was bad, and that if they just “acted” like a perfect cardboard cutout, instead as a child with needs or a range of emotions that are and can be expressed safely, was detrimental to their safety and their ability to have their needs met. So as kids do, because they haven’t formed proper boundaries and actually need to be fed, clothed, and protected, they learn to adapt to the expectations of the parent(s), rather than to be themselves and develop themselves as healthy, independent human beings, capable of healthy boundaries within interdependent bonds. So they’re not “acting” this way, or “masking” themselves in order to victimize or “fool” their potential partners. They’re genuinely behaving in ways that they believe are normal ways of expressing love to a person they genuinely love, which leads to the next challenge with a BPD;

3) Because they have learned to value “behaving perfectly” as an expression of love, they also value YOU, the person they have fallen in love with, as “perfect” and hence deserving of their love. This is where a now, committed & romantic partner, or when the child of the BOD, who starts growing up and starts expressing and asserting their own opinions, become a threat to the BPD, and this is where we, the non-BPD partner and child, get in deep trouble. Because no one is perfect, eventually, you will say or do something that the BPD DOES NOT LIKE OR FIND ACCEPTABLE, and the men suddenly, what you think is a mask, disappears.

Cont. from R135:

***Remember THIS, however, and it’s THE MOST IMPORTANT THING WHEN RECOGNIZING A BPD BEFORE GETTING INVOLVED WITH THEM AND NOT BEING THEIR CHILD*** No one is perfect. No one agrees with everything you say or do, and no one can actually meet your every need and make you fulfilled and happy, NOR should anyone be expected to. If you meet a potential partner who never disagrees with you, caters to you 24/7, provides you with endless sex, or behaves as your “dream girl whom I can settle down with, & raise a family with” or “great husband-future father material” RUN. You’re thinking is delusional, and based on your own childhood trauma. Get help for that, before settling down with anyone who’s just too good to be true. They not too good to be true, and as soon as you say something or do something that they see as a threat, you will live under the BPD’s rule of thumb: “I should have known you were a crazy bitch, whore/ piece of shit asshole, from the start!!! I HATE YOU! YOU HAVE RUINED MY LIFE!!!

👆🏽LOL! 👆🏽 This is my mother to a “T”, btw.

Moving right along...

4) That’s (#3) the beginning of the end. It’s called devaluation or depersonalization.

This is where the BPD, who once thought you were “perfect” for them but now are not, now they blame YOU for having fooled them into falling in love with you, just because you wanna go out fishing with the boys for the weekend, or perhaps you exploited them by being a 12 year old child who needed to eat, & asking them for dinner, and they turn on you.

Suddenly, if you put your foot down and say that you’re going fishing, or you as a kid, say something like: “Why don’t you ever make me dinner, Mom? I’m really hungry and Billy’s mom always make him dinner. Why can’t you do the same thing for me?” I The the END of the fucking world. It’s over. Done. Nothing will ever be the same again, and the honeymoon is officially OVAH. This is where THE BIG BLOW UP OF A FUCKING LIFETIME ensues.

Listen, there’s nothing like the blowup from the BPD. It is a ball of venom, hatred, false accusations, threats, and Daytime TV Soap Opera Awards, marinated in suicide attempts, real or attention seeking, cutting, begging, pleading, rolling on the floor, thrashing about, and even the hanging on to your ankle as you are forced to walk over their actual body, in order to physically exit the premises.

The first time I told my mom I was going to Magic Mountain no matter what she said, and whether she liked it or not, I had to do exactly that: walk right over her body as she attempted to grab my ankle, yet managed to only pull on my Sergio Valente’s, as she literally screamed, “PLEASE DON’T ME”!!!! in Spanish, in front of my friends who couldn’t believe what they were witnessing.

5) It only gets worse, now that you’ve asserted your personhood, and it now WAR, because you betrayed them! This is where the BPD will CONSTANTLY belittle you, in order to bring you back in line, by breaking down your self esteem. On a daily basis, you will be reminded that they sacrificed everything for you, almost died by giving birth to you, could have married the “Better Guy/Gal, Who Would NEVAH Have Done THIS To THEM”, etc., etc., and on and on it goes, until;

Cont. from R136:

The recovery process is not easy. You will make lots of mistakes when creating healthy boundaries and asserting yourself as who you really are. Sometimes you will act like the BPD who abused you, even though you’re not a BPD yourself. Sometimes you will become defensive, offensive, avoidant, and appear manic or severely depressed.

Just keep pushing forward, even with major or minor setbacks, because your sense of self either never developed in a healthy and appropriate way, and/or you were taught to believe that you didn’t matter, nor did your opinions, ideas, needs, wants, goals, dreams, etc. You were held hostage by them via actual need, like you were a child and this was it for you, or you were manipulated into not abandoning them (their biggest fear), by threats or attempts at self harm they caused to themselves, or even harming pets, kids, other relatives, blackmail, outright lying, or whatever it took to keep you at heel.

My heart goes out to any of you here, who have experienced this, and I totally understand what you have gone through, and how you feel. Don’t give up. It eventually gets better, and eventually, the BPD replaces you-which is the only way they ever let go.

Cheers, and best of luck to survivors of this HORRIFIC personality disorder, manifested in someone they love or once loved.

p.s. : Remember to be yourselves, even if it pisses someone else off. You owe no one any explanation for anything when you draw boundaries between yourselves and toxic, manipulative people. You’re not perfect, and that’s perfectly acceptable to those who don’t ask you to be, nor expect this from you, in order to validate their existence or their purpose behind existing.

Oops! O missed this part which should have gone after R136. Apologies. (Cont. from meant to replace R137...

6) You finally become a shell of your former self, and escape via substance abuse, booze, disappearing for weeks at a time at your best friend’s house, come back after their attempted suicide and six month hospitalization in the psych-ward, only to have the BPD repeat the behavior over and over again, until they beat you into submission, or you leave, or they die.

👆🏽 That’s al, folks 👆🏽❗️ This is life with a BPD, and it takes YEARS of therapy, failures, hits and misses, to recover from their drama, and allocate what’s your and not yours, what’s true and not true, what’s right and wrong, and who you are and who you are not, to FINALLY recover from their abuse, if you are their child, or ex, or whatever you were to them.

The recovery process is not easy. You will make lots of mistakes when creating healthy boundaries and asserting yourself as who you really are. Sometimes you will act like the BPD who abused you, even though you’re not a BPD yourself. Sometimes you will become defensive, offensive, avoidant, and appear manic or severely depressed.

Just keep pushing forward, even with major or minor setbacks, because your sense of self either never developed in a healthy and appropriate way, and/or you were taught to believe that you didn’t matter, nor did your opinions, ideas, needs, wants, goals, dreams, etc. You were held hostage by them via actual need, like you were a child and this was it for you, or you were manipulated into not abandoning them (their biggest fear), by threats or attempts at self harm they caused to themselves, or even harming pets, kids, other relatives, blackmail, outright lying, or whatever it took to keep you at heel.

My heart goes out to any of you here, who have experienced this, and I totally understand what you have gone through, and how you feel. Don’t give up. It eventually gets better, and eventually, the BPD replaces you-which is the only way they ever let go.

Cheers, and best of luck to survivors of this HORRIFIC personality disorder, manifested in someone they love or once loved.

p.s. : Remember to be yourselves, even if it pisses someone else off. You owe no one any explanation for anything when you draw boundaries between yourselves and toxic, manipulative people. You’re not perfect, and that’s perfectly acceptable to those who don’t ask you to be, nor expect this from you, in order to validate their existence or their purpose behind existing.

[quote] My Theory on Borderline personality Disorder: They Are BRATS

What is more important: How to label them or how to treat them? People underestimate how people distract themselves with trivial matters to avoid having to face and tackle the actual issue.

After dealing with my bipolar coworker for years, I determined that he did have some control over his behavior. Why? Because he had never killed anyone. He had limits. He just needed to move his boundary line from "don't kill people" to "don't yell at people".

That two faced personality thing they do was so confusing to me as a child. Everyone was always telling me how wonderful and charming and cool my mom was but she wasn’t to me. She never has good friends that last for any period of time and her relationships are superficial as they are dependent on her being admired. If she likes someone she’ll say that “they are so sweet to me.” She always uses this odd passivity.

R133 and I had the same mother. That whole being red hot angry, and then the neighbor comes in and it’s wiped off the face of the earth, also happened with me. And I also think the nice neighbor lady came over a time or two when she heard out of control screaming at our house. If not for her, I would have spent my entire adulthood in a mental hospital. She had her problems too, but was not bipolar and modeled a better mother figure than my own. I was out all day.

R138, that's 100% fully spot on and beautifully expressed.

You left out one little detail: The smear campaign if you ever even threaten to disentangle yourself. They will get to every single person you know mutually and get in there first with their version of the story, which is quite often a total fabrication. Not a distortion of what actually happened, but a total lie. And they'll do it so sneakily. It's like the concern trolling of all concern trolling. They don't usually say, "John's an alcoholic and he's violent." They'll say, with a heavy sigh and a furrowed brow, "Oh, did I mention that John and I went to that new restaurant last week? The food is wonderful. And John was such a trouper. He needed a bit of a reminder, but he stopped after 5 drinks. He did have a few more at the bar, but I can tell he's really trying. And I think he sincerely didn't realize when he slapped me exactly how much muscle he was putting behind his fist. Hmm? Oh, I guess it was between an open hand slap and a punch. But you know John! The big lug hardly knows his strength! Can I get you some more coffee cake?"

What's weird about my mom compared to these other examples is she did have the Crawford-Dunaway style meltdowns, it was very scary and the movie did NOT exaggerate. But, she was not mean the rest of the time. She was genuinely warm, funny, and nice most of the time. If she wasn't, I wouldn't have stayed in her life after I was a child/teen. She was somewhat but not overly manipulative, and she was controlling, but she was subtle about it. Most people thought of her as a really nice person who had a slight temper. She blasted no one but me, and most people didn't know it happened. My dad knew but he usually blamed me for making it happen. I was an only child. I was (with one or two exceptions) the only recipient of all the rage.

My mom had a lot of good qualities, she gave me a lot with no strings, was generous and loving, usually. I also know she was unable to face the rages and the pain she felt (I never found out what caused it). So it was like a roller coaster. After a while I got to see a pattern, especially how when things were nicest it was usually the prelude (a week, a couple) to a huge meltdown. I'm the guy who mentioned I also had the boyfriend like this. It was different in a lot of ways but probably the same illness.

R143, a version of that happened to me. “[Me] and that horrible bf are plotting to kill me!” She spread that story everywhere and ruined my whole life.

Here’s a tip: if some random mother, partner or spouse you know nothing about starts telling you their child is a Satan-worshipping fiend, doing all kinds of stuff that seems totally out of character, you might want to take that with a grain of salt. At least inquire a little bit more. You don’t have to believe everything you hear, especially if it makes no logical sense and is delivered by someone who sounds totally irrational.

Yes, R145, I never could understand that when it happened to me. Family, friends, people who'd known me often for decades -- their own observations of me were instantly swept away as soon as the BPD spun the web of lies. They are SO convincing. I don't know how they do it. They get people to believe a story that doesn't mesh up with any known reality, by playing the victim. Everybody feels sorry for a victim, right?

R126, Joan Crawford was a textbook example of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, not Borderline Personality Disorder. I suspect that everyone in Hollywood you've ever heard of has full-blown NPD or is somewhere high on the Narcissism spectrum, you just don't make it big there without monumental self-importance and a clinical lack of empathy! But most people with BPD are too unstable to build stellar careers.

Of course telling the difference between Cluster B Personality Disorders can be a bit difficult, several people on this thread have described what might be NPD and not BPD. And yes, people with NPD can throw massive rages too, look up "Narcissistic Rage. And listen to the Mel Gibson phone tapes for an example.

R147, it's often said that BPD and NPD are the same illness, only BPD usually manifests in women (more passive aggression, inward-directed rage) and NPD usually manifests in men (more overt aggression, outward-directed rage). I personally believe that.

I think it probably is partly due to hormones and partly to socialization. Females are more likely to get what they want by crying and playing the victim and males are more likely to get what they want by aggressively demanding it with an "alpha male" posture. Morph that into pathology and you have BPD and NPD.

Also, many women with BPD are, or at one point were, quite attractive. Between their beauty and their incredible talent at seduction, they can snare nearly anyone they target. And once they're on the hook, good luck getting away without having your life torn apart, your children turned against you, etc.

I don't think it's an accident that so many BPD women are attractive. In their youth, many BPD women play the waif -- a fragile young innocent who needs a big, strong man who will understand her like no other and protect her from the big bad world. This works well for a doe-eyed beauty. It doesn't work so well for a fat ugly duckling, so there's very little reward for BPD hijinks and very little chance to flatter a man into "protecting" you.

R143, thank you, and YES, my very own mother has spun stories about me that either started with a kernel of truth, and evolved into pure fiction, or she just made up stories. One of her narratives was that I hit her. I can tell you and anyone right now, I have never laid a finger on my mother, though I could have in self defense, MANY times while growing up.

My mom was the ultimate victim at church, claiming I was a horrible person who she couldn’t save from the clutches of drug abuse, when the truth was, that it was so untenable and unbearable to remain at home with her, I decided that my chances were better if I took off, and abused myself with drugs and alcohol, hanging out with friends who were also addicts, but way nicer than my mom and who I could hold a normal conversation with, and laugh!

After getting sober, I was floored by hearing family members tell me the shit my mom said I did, which I never did, regardless of my frame of mind, high or sober. And the fact that she used my decision to scram as a legal adult, and twisted it into this “mother fighting for the life of her child, now in the clutches of addiction”, in order to get sympathy from church friends that would have been her friends anyhow, without the spin, was breathtaking. She even used the story YEARS after I got sober, in order to snag herself a second husband.

My mom and I have gone through some remarkable changes in the last several months, due to CoViD-19. I can sincerely say that we’re in a MUCH better place, and while she has not addressed her BPD nor the causes behind it, she has made an attempt to change her behaviors toward me, and that’s SO MUCH more than I ever expected from her.

It’s so sad, because she had a great kids who actually loved her. But that wasn’t enough for a person like my mom when I became a teenager who wanted to do normal teenage stuff, and challenged her on her refusals to allow that, and did so, regardless of the consequences faced when I’d get back home from something as innocuous as a football game at my high school.

She pulled the same shot on my dad, who eventually had to take off to save himself. Fortunately, I was perceptive enough to eventually question her “spin” regarding him, and sought him out, and learned his side of the story as an adult, which is when he felt it was appropriate to reveal to me things I had never even known about, and how these events influenced him to finally get out.

I wish he had stayed because I want to believe it would have been better for me with someone who actually loved me, protecting me from her, however, I eventually came to understand why he had to leave, and why his choice weren’t optimal for him, but were completely valid for him.

R144, I'm R133, and your description applies to my mother too. She was warm, kind, loving, and giving...90 percent of the time. The other 10 percent of the time, she was a screaming shrew. I think she had a lot of rage, and she couldn't release it on people she didn't know. (She had extremely low self esteem.) So she exploded at my dad and my siblings and me. I don't want to cut ties with her because she was a good mother most of the time. But I refuse to put up with the rages anymore, and since I no longer live with her, I have the power to hang up the phone or get in my car and drive away. So, now she's on better behavior with me. My dad still gets raged at, though.

She always had a tense relationship with her parents and siblings. I assume that she unleashed on them before she moved out and got married. The rumor is that her parents kicked her out of the house (she was over 18) because she screamed at her mother about something and overturned some furniture.

*and that while his choices weren’t optimal for me, they were completely valid for him.

Someone just needs to beat the crap out of them, till they learn a few things.

R153, BPDs self harm plenty if you walk out the door. No need for violence or combat. They beat the living shot out of themselves too, trust me.

Just disagree with them and stand your ground. Multiple hospitalizations due to suicide or threats, ensue.

[quote]It’s so sad, because she had a great kids who actually loved her.

Yes, that's the most heartbreaking thing of all. But one of the pathologies of BPD is belief that they are unlovable -- actually, that they are horribly tainted people, and anyone who gets too close will see the real, awful them and inevitably abandon them. So sincerely loving them and being truly close to them is the worst thing you can do. A young child's love is very innocent and uncritical, so they can accept loving from babies and toddlers. But as soon as a child develops discernment, or the ability to ask questions, the BPD feels the jig is up. They get to work hurting the child, badmouthing the child, and pushing them away so they can be the abandoner, not the abandonee.

Sick and heartbreaking. And being hated by its own mother damages a child in a way it can never recover from, no matter what. (See also: Stephen Sondheim.)

R155, we, as children of BPDs, can and do recover if we ourselves aren’t BPD, however, that’s rare, and takes YEARS to facilitate, maintain, and break-through. Totally doable, however.

Personally, I also believe it takes humility to also laugh at one’s self, identify one’s own character flaws that are coping mechanisms and even protective-defense mechanisms that were necessary and totally valid, justifiable, and useful, in order to survive in that kind of environment as a kid. We can let them go when we feel safe. Sometimes, though. We’ve gotta be reminded or taught what “safe” actually is.

It also takes becoming realistic about what happened, and accepting that you were a victim and that everything your abuser did was based on falsehoods, in order to keep you in their lives, rather than true or relevant information about who you are. None of that was real, and if you can accept that, it’s a wide open field, even when you see tons of obstacles. Those obstacles aren’t always real either. Once you get close enough to paper tigers, you can blow them down, or keep them for later, crumple them of for later, in case there’s no TO, and you need to wipe your ass. LOL! Like in our post CoViD19 landscape!

There’s a certain type of sanguine attitude or disengagement required from the actual abuse. There’s a specific type of intelligence required to process the events, almost like a math formula, if that makes any sense.

You cannot process the amount of harm done to you, while you’re reliving the harm or consistently triggered by it. A BPD survivor will find themselves triggered constantly, when they either disengage from the abuser, or when they have the abuser attacking them from afar, or during family reunions, when they’re your parent.

That’s why this “3rd person” observer stuff is necessary in order to have a real shot at healing. You have to see it as a play you were in, and when you can do this, you can call curtains. No one is required to live on that stage forever, or relive a script they hated, especially when there are so many play that we can write, for ourselves with laughter and happy endings.

The other thing that the adult or teenager must have, in order to have an earnest shot of genuine recovery, is a sense that they ARE lovable and worthy of being loved by they, themselves, and others.

This is where it gets dicey, because if I recognize that if I hadn’t had my dad for the first 6-7 years of my life, in my life daily, raising me in his marital home, as a daughter whom he loved unconditionally and engaged with appropriately, as a normal, non-abusive & non-exploitative Father, as a normal father is expected to, I may have missed that EXTREMELY important window of opportunity.

Due to having been exposed to a dad who wasn’t perfect by any means, but didn’t harm me or neglect me and actually devoted time to parenting me, I got that message and believed it to be true.

After he was gone, my grandma fortunately stepped in, and took it from there. And I can tell you without a doubt that her unconditional love, her sweetness and nurturing, and mine toward her in return, allowed me to preserve these things inside of myself when I became addicted to booze and drugs, & saved me from becoming dead inside, I suppose.

To this very day, I always have hope and contrary to my DL Bitchery, I DO have the instant ability to love and trust people, as just human beings who deserve respect and honor, because they’re alive!

Yes, for sure this President and moving to the south and living amongst “his” people, have brought out some of the very worst in me, and have challenged my ability to extend compassion and acceptance of others, while justifiably pissing me off and making me retreat to isolation, due to real shock and disbelief, that people like the ones I’ve become familiar with, actually exist outside of Alex Hailey’s Root’s.

Doesn’t matter too much when I identify and evaluate the flip side.

I believe that I

a) needed to engage with these folks personally.

I am actually very book-smart and street-smart, but totally naive about the rest of the people living in the same America I live in.

I got to meet a bunch of assholes, however, I got to make friends with people I genuinely adore and cherish, who look like me and have hair love me and laugh from their gut like me, and love to tell jokes like me, and just let shit fly, which I’m so fucking grateful for, because I never got that growing up in NYC or LA.

And those positive experiences and creations of new bonds, is what shows me, informs me, and validates to me, that, YEP, we can heal and we do heal, if we had love.

Even if it was just a little bit. As long as it was real love, maybe it enough, like a plant growing in a room with dark curtains, but the sun peeks though the blinds, just enough for the plant to get light, and someone remembers to water it once a week. That plant is gonna make it and thrive.

That’s how resilient I believe we are, and because I had so much more than that plant, I got really lucky and things are salvageable.

I’m happy as fuck with salvageable, and feel damn grateful for that much, trust me.

I know many of us didn’t get a few years with a loving dad, or ANYTHING, but please do not let this dissuade anyone. I’m here to express that as cheesy as this sounds, I would probably love you if I met you, because I know I have loved worse and still do: my mom, and MYSELF, today, as I am, warts & all.

No one is damned or doomed.

You are loved.

We all are.

Just reach out and ask. Eventually, someone’s gonna rap you on your shoulder, look at you and say: “OK, where’s my hug”?

Healing comes in hugs. Please take as many as you can and give them away, whenever you genuinely want to and can.

We’re all gonna be OK, because we already are.

R157 You have the right outlook, and your positive attitude is both admirable, and encouraging to others in similar circumstances. Sounds as if you've done or are doing the heavy lifting. Though I stand by the therapist upthread who said in his senior years he no longer takes certain people on as patients, and that many BPD individuals are hard cases, no one ought to feel they're damned or not capable of improvement. I never did believe that about the children of BPD diagnosed parents. Many rise above their circumstances.

The more I reflect on the OP's theory, my mind conjures up an image of a very uptight 50s mum who leaves her baby crying in the middle of the night, so as not to spoil him. Such indulgences create problems later on!

R157 I Forgot to send you a virtual hug...xoxo

Virtual hugs back atcha, R159.

"And being hated by its own mother damages a child in a way it can never recover from, no matter what."

Well certainly there are some things you can change, some you can't. But with time, distance, healthy relationships if you are so lucky, sobriety, thoughtfulness, etc, your upbringing is no longer the most important thing about you. If you are able to start growing up away from your horrible parent/s as an adult, you can become your own person and not what they made you.

I don't tell people in real life about the shit my parents pulled on me, most people don't want to believe that things like that happen. They want to believe that all parents are really good and loving, and that all family issues can be forgiven and worked through, and that monsters who abuse their kids are some undefinable "other", not their own friends and neighbors and relatives.

Yikes! So many of these stories sound like my mom too. I was lucky in a way though, my mom views other women as competition and is obsessed getting attention from men, and as a gay man, never gave her any, so she ignored me. Sadly, she focused on my sister.

My sister cut off contact with her altogether, after she learned that she did the same thing that R150 's mom did to him: make up stories about how "troubled" she was to look like a martyr. My sister struggled with an eating disorder, and had to take a leave from college for a semester to go into treatment. She returned to school, graduated, and went to graduate school. My mom told people for years about her "crazy" daughter "in mental hospital" to get pity and attention, for years after she recovered.

My mom ignored my academic accomplishments to the point where no one in my extended family even knew about my degrees and career (I'm a forensic accountant, and hold MS in Accountancy and a JD), but when I made an offhand reference to going to law school, my grandfather told me that he didn't even know that I finished college. With my sister, she will try to sabotage her or outdo her. When she told our mom, she got into graduate school, my mom said she would fail. When my sister started getting stuff published, my mom started making plans to submit stuff for publication, despite not being an academic.

R162, that more than BPD, that NPD, as well.

It sounds like pretty much everyone in your family thrives on unhealthy competition and not supporting each other through challenges and accomplishments, or even recognizing each other’s accomplishments.

There’s a lot of toxicity there and it appears to be multi-generational and a way of life for everyone.

I hope you can form new relationships with supportive people, and I hope your sister and you find support away and outside of what appears to be a very mean-spirited family.

These people sound like the Trump family or like people who would vote for Trump,, to be honest with you.

Hugs 🤗 to your sister and you!

Wow, that's sick R162. If I was your sister, I would have confronted her directly about that crap. And if I was you, I would say to her, "Mom, most normal Moms brag up their kids like crazy, why do you do the opposite? Why didn't granddad even know that I graduated from college?"

If you confront them they play the victim, deny and/or make shit up. No point. Walk away.

R163 Just my mom has that unhealthy competition thing. Weirdly, my sister is the total opposite: she's extremely supportive of others. She's a distance runner and has convinced others to take up running, and I know she encouraged at least one boyfriend she had to go to graduate school. I'm somewhere in the middle. I feel competitive with people I view as competition, like people in my cohort in school. My mom and sister were never my competition because they were in different fields than me.

R164 She did once. Some friend of my mom's made some comment to her about her having been in a "mental hospital" and when my sister confronted our mother, she accused my sister of being in love with the guy. So, basically R165 is right. I think that was the final straw that made her go no-contact.

It's worth noting, that my mom has told us both since we were kids that we're not allowed to talk about her to (this is an exact quote) "anyone ever." In college, everyone thought both my parents were dead (my dad died when I was 13) because I never mentioned them.

It still makes me angry when I think about the college graduation thing. I have over 20 first cousins, and all of us went to college, but only 3 of us (including me) finished. My mom always told her family (and friends) when I was suspended from school in high school though. I was frequently suspended because I cut school and got into fights - I was bullied a lot because I was obviously gay though I wasn't officially "out." I think she got addicted to the positive attention she got as the mom of "troubled teens."

R166, my mother was like that, too. She was FURIOUS that there was anything about her on the Internet. It was a terrible invasion of privacy that her name and address and phone number were out there. (Like they were in the White pages for decades?)

“Don’t tell anyone our business” “you don’t have to lie, just say you don’t know”

Meanwhile, she’d greedily ask us to look up so-and-so, to see what dirt we could find out about them.

So has this thread become whacked, or is it just me being “sensitive” today?

LMAO!

R167 My mom insists that her phone number isn't online because it's "unlisted." It is literally the first thing that comes up when I Google her name.

She is also weirdly an oversharer about certain things, but only if they can get her sympathy, like medical problems.

"...I would have confronted her directly about that crap."

R164, you don't understand, confronting people with Cluster B personality disorders gets you nothing except more grief!

They don't learn from past mistakes, they don't admit they're wrong, they don't take responsibility for hurting others, they don't apologize, they don't do better in the future, they don't feel sorry, etc. In fact, any attempt to show that they've ever been wrong about anything is taken as an lethal attack, and is greeted with a counterattack at the time, and guerilla tactics later to prevent anyone else from believing the truth. Tell a Cluster B psycho that they've injured you, and first they'll blame you for everything and then say you're crazy and worthless, and then they'll tell everyone you know that you're abusive and unstable, or whatever. Anything to twist what as happened to something that supports their ego needs and the manipulation of other people, even if it means telling the world that your bright and successful daughter is a mental case, poor me poor me.

Like I said, normal people don't want to believe that this kind of behavior exists, but it's a fact that these people treat their children worse than anyone. Because they can.

R140 and you know that how? Because he said so?

Is the whole extreme secrecy thing a BPD trait? I had a friend like that years ago. Didnt want even the most innocuous details about herself repeated. I always felt like a horrible person if I forgot this.

^Yes, won't even complete census forms due to privacy concerns.

I think it’s because they fear being judged, since they are so judgmental themselves. Much the way that liars always think you’re lying or cheaters think you’re cheating.

Just my opinion.

R164, you have obviously never dealt with a BPD person in a rage. My principals and teachers were scared of my mother.

I warned them ahead of time exactly what she would do. They stupidly assured me they knew how to deal with difficult parents and of course they would very quickly calm her down and all would be fine. I told them, I’ve dealt with her my entire life and you’ve never even met her, I’m warning you now. They pooh-poohed the very idea that they couldn’t immediately get the upper hand and keep it. I knew that wasn’t going to happen.

She came in there and within five minutes she was just shrieking hysterically. I could see the teachers looking more and more scared. Finally I think they just said, never mind.

After she left, I told them, “I told you so! But you refused to listen.” People that don’t know any BPD people, please do not stir up shit for the fun of it and leave it to the person’s kid to take all the fallout from your irresponsible actions alone. They were happily at home with their feet up, relaxing, while I had to listen to screaming about that for weeks. They refused to get involved enough to do anything about it at all. Not their problem. Just stir it up and dump it on some kid’s lap. Then go home and forget it.

That whole situation happened because my father refused to sign my report card, so they made her come in and look at it in front of them. Just busybody assholes.

Even if you are a completely oblivious asshole, be aware that some kids, even college age, can be living in extremely precarious situations and don’t need you throwing your weight around jeopardizing their living situation, where they may be hanging on by the skin of their teeth. Your grandstanding can get a BPD’s kid thrown in the street, or get them beaten or locked out. Just because you don’t know any BPD’s, for gods sake don’t refuse to listen when somebody tells you they’re afraid of their parents or spouse. They’ve got a good reason.

Have you at least heard of child abuse or spousal abuse? Do you believe in that at least? A lot of those abusers are BPD or NPD. People that hurt people and think they’re the victim. “You made me hit you” is a typical defense.

R172, it’s a form of paranoia. My mom did that and she had BPD. Same thing, don’t give out any info to anyone. Also, don’t let anyone in the house. She would get very angry if the kids let anyone in the house for any reason, even somebody she knew well. Don’t answer the phone. I would listen to the phone ring off the hook and I couldn’t answer it.

Another person I know got more and more paranoid as they aged, and although they weren’t as bad when they were younger, as they aged it was ridiculous. Just screaming and screaming if you disclosed any trivial thing accidentally. Even trivial things people could plainly see with their own eyes.

At one point they became enraged because I mentioned some obvious fact about them in passing, because they were afraid their long term relationship ship partner who lived thousands of miles away would somehow hear about it. Although their name was never used.

Oh yeah. They never let anything go. That taxi driver overcharged me 10 years ago and had the nerve to tell me that he didn't! I got dragged down to your school to talk to your teachers and they blamed ME for your behaviour! I mean, it's endless.

Have you ever met someone that looks at your shoulder instead of at your face when talking directly to you? What does that mean? Are they BPD or some other kind of crazy?

this thread has been helpful.

i see also that we're going into discussion of paranoia, which my mother had badly (DD - Persecutory subtype). i never had my mother down as BPD, but some disorders maybe have some similar modes of expression. fabricating derogatory stories about me, suggesting i had a mental problem if i was upset by that, accusing me of doing things i never even thought, accusing me of lying (to follow on academical stories above, when i had my first professional paper accepted she accused me of having lied to the conference organizers), i wondered even when i was young why you would bring someone into the world to treat them like that. and i can confirm that parental emotional abuse has lifetime repercussions. i'm now at the age of pondering retirement and i still have rages about her behavior.

but there was one very BPD-looking episode. one of my mother's sisters (so, my aunt) once treated one of her nieces (so, my cousin) so abusively that the niece cried. when my mother heard of this she was very angry - at the niece. otoh, this irrational reaction left me gobsmacked. otoh, i understood it on a gut level. my mother and her sisters shared a freakish sense of identification, and by crying my cousin was suggesting that my aunt had done something wrong, which is utterly unacceptable - that would go to the shame component of BPD. but putting the psychological aspects aside, the whole episode was just so vicious on the parts of both my mother and my aunt.

I never considered that my mom has BPD because she was only crazy in our house, and I thought people with BPD treated everyone like shit. A lot of people have posted stories about coworkers and such , but my mom always acted so meek around people outside our family.

[R180] Both my mother and my grandmother were very ingratiating to people outside our family.

Here's my brush with BPD. I worked with a woman whose adopted daughter had BPD. Said daughter had three children with different men who all had disappeared (can't really say as I blame them). Said daughter could not hold down a job or maintain a steady residence or vehicle. My coworker continued to work until her early 80s so that the grand kids had a stable place to live, food to etc. BPD daughter would not infrequently call her mom at work and when she could not get coworker, would start transferring to other desks. She was always having near-hyperventilating breakdowns about the stupidest issues, for instance, not being able to find a jar of peanut butter. When the last grand kid graduated high school, my coworker finally retired. She sold her house and set the BPD daughter up with a new car, found her an apartment and paid the rent for a full year and also gave her a lump sum for living expenses - then she moved to another state to be closer with her other adopted (normal) kid.

Exactly a year to the day she moved, the BPD daughter took a handful of sleeping pills, walked into a local lake and drowned herself. She left a note blaming her suicide on her mother. I saw my former coworker and her (sane) son at the funeral and, frankly, they looked relieved. I was happy for them, as bad as that sounds. The daughter was a terror. I don't really know people can handle dealing with someone with that condition for any length of time.

That sounds familiar, R179 literally "familiar", as in "like part of my family".

Every situation is about how the person with the personality disorder feels. If you get beaten up at school, Mother is the injured party because people will think she's a bad mother because her kid is unpopular. If the kid is sick and can't keep anything down and balks at taking a suppository, that sick kid is in for a screaming fit because the horrible awful kid (who's throwing up everything) is making her feel like a bad mother. Etc.

These people treat their intimate partners the second worst and their children the absolute worst, because those people have unwittingly raised impossible expectations and they can't get away. And good luck getting away if you're the child of one of these people, because by 18 you're probably going to be a dysfunctional mess of some kind, and you're not going to have any family support if you want a college education or job training.

[quote]I have a sister who I'm convinced is BPD and she's been like that since birth.

My sister has BPD. She started acting weird when we were teenagers. She was painfully sweet, incredibly kind and my best friend before that. Then suddenly, maybe over the course of three or so months, she started acting weird. Sometimes she'd be fine but then it was like someone hit a light switch and she'd be abnormally angry. Furthermore she'd misinterpret interactions, she'd make up stories that didn't make any sense about people she hated or that hated her.

We always had a good relationship so she never turned on me. Also I'm a lot bigger than her and I think in her madness she knew not to mess with me. :)

Eventually she was institutionalized after our parents noticed that it wasn't just them, it was other people in our family, friends, people from school who all said there was something horribly wrong with her.

She was in therapy for years, she is on medication (she is still in therapy to this day actually) and she is mostly some kind of strange version of her old self. She's very nice to everyone. She's also, as before, very kind. Although there are moments when you can see that if you don't answer her question correctly she may be upset with herself or you and one gets weirded out when she is in those kinds of moods.

Well crap. I used to think that I had mild autism, but now I think that I have mild autism and BPD. I score high on both in self tests. I have seen several counselors over the years, but none help. I’m seeing a psychiatrist in 3 weeks, so I will bring it up to him. I have had MANY arguments like r133 details, but with my partner. We got into an argument once because he wanted to watch football, and I wanted to watch 90 day fiancé. We have one television. He insisted that his football was more important (because it was live) even though I was sitting in front of the TV first. I yelled and screamed, told him that he never loved me, called him selfish, grabbed a bottle of wine, and got a hotel room. I have also broken things and put holes in the walls over misunderstandings. He stays with me because I am loving, thoughtful, and kind 95% of the time. I just blow things wildly out of proportion sometimes. I also don’t really have any friends and am socially awkward, which is why I thought I was autistic. I often say the wrong thing, then beat myself up about it. I have always been able to find romantic partners because I’m attractive (thank goodness).

R185 90 Day Fiance? I'm afraid you are truly irredeemable.

I had a childhood friend who was untimely diagnosed with BPD. She didn't have a temper but she stalked every guy who she went on a date with. Her therapist dumped her. She had multiple restraining orders. Her mother abandoned her. She got along pretty good with other women though.

Elizabeth Taylor is a classic example of BPD. They are addicted to love. They fall in extreme love very quickly. They are into chaos and drama.

If you have BPD: You meet someone at a bar, then that creep move in with you. You alienate all your family and friends you think this is dangerous and are trying to help you. When this creep, bleeds your bank account dry or steals your furniture, you attempt suicide because this person was the love of your life.

How love is experienced in the mind of a person with BPD is very different than a normal person. This is a cognitive and emotional medical (mental health) disorder. Something is different in the brain of a BPD person. They are different than NPD and Sociopath because they have empathy. They are often the target of NPD and Sociopaths.

After reading this thread, I'm glad my mother is just a run-of-the-mill schizophrenic!!!

R188 That is totally my mom. My dad, whom my mother was totally devoted to, died when I was 13, and within weeks she started a relationship with a guy that had a long-term live-in girlfriend. She was obsessed with him and I think he had a case of NPD.

Anyway, while he was seeing my mom, she found out he married his other girlfriend, when she read it in the paper, like something out of a Lifetime movie!

R178, they're either mildly autistic or shy. Not looking at your face is a tell that says the person is uncomfortable. Try smiling at them or making your voice sound more upbeat.

Some people have anger or sarcasm in their voice all the time and don’t know it. It’s like auditory resting bitch face. If someone is shy for whatever reason, you’re going to have a hard time getting them to make eye contact if you sound annoyed.

r178 You're 6"10 aren't you?

My dealings with my NPD sis-in-law got so tiresome I finally blew it up. Luckily everyone knows how she is and has been treated with her wrath at one time or another. One of her tactics is to accuse whoever of screaming at her. This works because it shifts her as the voice of reason-dealing with a hysterical person. She's used it on everyone so it doesn't hold the gravitas anymore.

My partner and I were going to visit friends at their cabin and we were passing thru bro and sis-in-laws city. I mentioned it to her so we all might have a visit and she insisted we come a day early and stay the night with them. There's a new restaurant in town and the museum has expanded and she'll take us. How nice! The day before we head out she calls to ask about our arrival, we're chatting, then suddenly, "you're screaming at me and I will not be screamed at!!" She repeated it a few times and hung up. I knew what was coming and sure enough, that night a text telling us to drive right on thru, we will not be welcome in her house (for treating her that way). With her, you never challenge, but this time she really pissed me off. I forwarded the text to my brother (who's well aware of her tactics). He didn't even know we were coming. I get this furious text from SIL saying I should have kept this between the two of us and again mentioning my "huge angry blow up" at her. Again, normally I would have left it alone but what the hell. I send her word per word script of our conversation, point out where she started accusing me of screaming and ask her if there's something I'm missing, because there was no screaming. Forwarded everything to my brother. He of course apologized, haven't heard from her now in a year. Felt good!

R193, she may or may not be BPD, but that accusation of "screaming" is a common millennial and younger thing. They tend to interpret any direct, no bullshit conversation as "screaming". I've been accused of "screaming" simply by asking certain "tender to the touch" employees a few pointed questions in an even-toned voice. It's bizarre.

A lot of people blame BPD on abusive treatment by parents. However, a lot of studies are leading to the conclusion that brain abnormalities and genetics play a large part in the disorder. Certainly environment can also be a big factor, but that is often difficult to assess. Blaming parents has traditionally be based on anecdotal evidence provided by the BPD. Researchers and good therapists now rely on information from other family members and friends who very often deny that events described by the BPD ever took place. Part of the problem is that BPDs are often dishonest but many twist events in their minds and eventually come to believe that their version is true. Finally, any family with a BPD is bound to be dysfunctional to some degree simply because it is so difficult to live with one of them. As my dear friend, a psychiatrist once said, "I hate a fucking BPD."

Most Talk Therapist and Psycho Social Agencies do not have the formal training to work with personality disorders.

Master-Level Talk Therapists do not have any right to deal with personality disorders. Also, they have no right to diagnosis or conduct therapy for a person with a serious medical condition.

We are thinking that BPD is really a Brain Disorder, as more research is conducted.

Health Care Professionals who talk and treat people seeking therapy badly, or stigmatizes and discriminates against a person with a medical condition/mental health issues are DISGUSTING PIECES OF SHIT. They need to have their licenses REVOKED.

Because effective therapy deals with the emotional and cognitive health of the client. It should not matter what the client is label with. BPD is an emotional and cognitive based disorder, so that is why effective psychotherapy could be helpful.

I think it is more that social workers are not trained at all to deal with serious mental health conditions. They have no training or oversight. Often, it is the master-level social workers who are doing shady shit. Bad therapy can be very dangerous. See one flew over the cuckoo's nest.

Because effective therapy deals with the emotional and cognitive health of the client. It should not matter what the client is label with. BPD is an emotional and cognitive based disorder, so that is why effective psychotherapy could be helpful.

I think it is more that social workers are not trained at all to deal with serious mental health conditions. They have no training or oversight. Often, it is the master-level social workers who are doing shady shit. Bad therapy can be very dangerous. See one flew over the cuckoo's nest.

If a therapist cannot help the client for whatever reason, if they don't have the right kind of training or they just hate dealing with certain conditions, then they are absolutely right to refuse to see a particular person.

A friend is a former therapist (MSW), and told me about the time a new client walked into her office... and she immediately disliked him. She didn't understand why, he hadn't done anything offensive, but it stuck and she turned him over to another therapist who took him as a client. She said after the fact that this was correct, if a therapist has a problem with a client, for whatever fucking worthless reason, then they aren't going to be able to help that person and should not accept them as a patient. Better no therapy or delayed therapy, than bad therapy.

I took my BPD relative to the hospital after a self harm incident. I remember being a bit shocked at the callous way the psychiatrist treated her. Granted, we went there on my insistence to get her some help (she didn't resist). But then she refused to fill out a diagnostic questionnaire or to be questioned, saying she was fine, the incident was over and she wanted to leave. (Afterward she acted like it never happened---very common). Anyway, the doc said something like "well, I can't help you if you won't co-operate. I don't have time for this" ---or words to that effect. Very cold, condescending tone.

Talk therapy has been shown NOT to help BPDs, period. It's worse than useless, as it gives them one more person to tell their sob story to, to manipulate to their own ends. It's one more person drawn into their web and left with bitter feelings afterward.

What HAS been shown to help is DBT, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. It's not analysis or standard talk therapy. It's a form of behavioral training, developed by a onetime BPD sufferer. It teaches BPDs to recognize their thought distortions and control their overreactions to stimuli. In certain cases, psychiatric drugs have helped as well but IMO that's risky, as BPDs easily become drug-dependent.

I don't have BPD, but I do have bipolar disorder and issues stemming from childhood abuse and bullying.

I think r198 is onto something.

I saw a number of counselors/social workers in my late teens and early 20s. None were particularly effective or helpful, and some were harmful. It wasn't until a friend recommended an actual psychologist (who was also a professor of psychology) that I made real, tangible improvements. Indeed, he changed my life.

Therapist who bad mouth their clients need to have their license revoke. There can be a zero tolerance policy put into place for mental health professional and their assistants to deal with bad therapists, who increase stigma and discrimination.

We want clients to feel comfortable seeking effective therapy.

We want frauds and con artists out of the mental health field.

Therapists who do not identify their clients when talking about them have done nothing wrong. Training in part depends on therapists discussing clients while shielding patient identity.

Therapists are only human. Anyone in any profession, aside from emergency or lifesaving services, should have the right to decline any client they feel uncomfortable with. It's hardly the mark of a "fraud" or "con artist."

There are humans who have EMPATHY. There are humans who are professionals, who act professionally, who treat clients with EMPATHY and RESPECT.

No, if you have no empathy or the appropriate training, you cannot have clients.

Who is this nutball who thinks that therapists should always be 100% forgiving and loving towards their patients? Counselors are human beings, with the same likes and dislikes and flaws as any other human being.

Adjust your expectations, R206, a therapist is not someone who has to put up with all your shit, a therapist is someone you worth with to get better. If you just dump crazy shit on the therapist and don't work towards moderating your behavior and getting better, the therapist will dump you if they know what they're doing. If the therapy isn't working, that's the right thing to do, anything else not only wastes your time and theirs, it encourages people like you to keep being horrible.

R206 sets off my BPD alarm.

Seriously, I've been part of many online boards for people dealing with BPDs as relatives or partners. Even when BPDs are forbidden to participate, they barge in anyway and accuse everyone of lacking compassion for the real victims (the BPDs, duh). Some of the sneakier ones pretend not to be BPD but you can spot them a mile away with their devil's advocate fingerpointing.

You CANNOT have a public discussion of BPD without BPDs finding it and crashing it. I'm 100% convinced that, on the internet as well as IRL, they troll around looking for slights and insults.

IF you do not have training to treat BPD patients, you should not have BPD patients.

If you do not have the appropriate training, you should just say I do not have training to treat this and refer up.

If you are treating (providing talk therapy) to clients with BPD, you cannot gossip about them, treat them poorly.

Also, if you are a Lic. mental health professional, shouldn't you have the skill set to deal with emotional and cognitive related issues. This is really concerning if you do not. What was your formal training and supervised hours in?

R208, LOL. Can diagnose BPD over the internet. Has an "alarm."

Sets off my troll alarm.

I’ve met a few licensed mental health professionals who were... not quite right, themselves.

Most recently a doctor of psychology who was quite hot-tempered. My daughter saw a LMSW who talked about herself during sessions and cried twice. Apparently, she was trying to show that she was empathetic to my daughter’s problems, but my daughter said she was unhappy to be put in the position of consoling her therapist and she felt that the therapist was co-opting her emotions.

R203 is unfamiliar with the concept of a "case history," an important aspect of medical literature and training. Case histories of noncompliant (or, if you prefer, nonadherent) patients abound in the literature of any specialty. All of them are always anonymized. It is not unethical to discuss "difficult" patients if identifying details are anonymized or outright falsified.

Case Histories are used to train early psychologists or medical doctors, before they see patients. They are not real.

Medical Records belong to the client and are with the treating medical doctor.

Talk therapists have notes, so they know what their clients wants to cover next, and obviously prepare for the next couple sessions.

Compliance and Adherence reports are about side effects from medications or medical procedures. The client has to be informed consented about their risks, and given phone numbers to report side effects and complications to a medical oversight board.

Does BPD have any genetic components? I have bipolar (well controlled) and 3 of my other siblings get depression, but I have a raging bitch of a sister who we strongly suspect has BPD. I am just curious if there may be any connection or if it's something that happens randomly.

Here's a test to figure out if you are dealing with BPD or some other crazy you can't put your finger on and you seem to be the brunt of a lot of anger, manipulation or silent treatment. If it gets to the point where you ask yourself, "Is it them, or is it me?" the fact that you ask that question means it's them. You are not the crazy one. The crazies never even ask that question, because it's never them.

Sometimes it’s both. Not for kids, but when kids come out of these dysfunctional homes and situations and become adults? We tend to attract other adults who also came from homes that were dysfunctional.

So yes, I am always willing to ask that question, R215, however, I definitely know that it’s a question I have to ask often because often times it is my “me” mixed up with their “them”.

The challenge with many of us is that when we come from dysfunctional homes, we find people who did not, as incompatible with us or boring.

OK. Well, that’s not something I have to over correct for. I’m not going gel with a straight laced banker or a ruthless pimp. But I can definitely deal with people who went through similar as I, and are aware of it and understand that asking that question is really important and relevant to conducting themselves and ourselves, and myself, as emotionally responsible human beings who come from crazy but don’t abuse others or ourselves or allow ourselves to be abused by others, as a result of our pasts.

No one wants perfect friends or parents and most of us will welcome and accept broken, but treating others like shit and hurting people and not even recognizing or and attempting to not repeat the behavior or zero cooperation? That’s not acceptable.

It’s OK if it is them, as long as it is addressed and resolved and corrected, and I’d hope for that reciprocity in the same spirit of generosity, my fellows, too.

I’ve been reading a lot about BPD cases lately and I think that there are certain BPD cases that express as BPD but are actual psychopathy and for some reason, it’s never diagnosed when applied to women.

BPD is a disorder that can hide criminality and I’m starting to understand that there’s a huge difference between someone like my bpd mom and a homicidal murderer diagnosed with BPD.

The line between the two of those is definitely there however, it is very thin and oftentimes we do not recognize which one we’re dealing with because we still haven’t learned how to approach this disorder successfully through treatment.

I’d never risk anything I cared about with a BPD. Too risky and you don’t know which one is just going to rage away for a few hours as opposed to one who commits violent and criminal trauma resulting in homicide or suicide but with a BPD, you cannot risk it.

So yes, I always observe from a distance and ask “is it them or is it me”?, and if it really is just them, then I am responsible for my safety and disengage immediately with a BPD.

R215/R216 thanks so much for your posts. You succinctly cleared up and defined the difficult confusing relationship I have with my father.

These quotes hit home:

[quote] anger, manipulation or silent treatment. If it gets to the point where you ask yourself, "Is it them, or is it me?" the fact that you ask that question means it's them. You are not the crazy one. The crazies never even ask that question, because it's never them.

[quote] often times it is my “me” mixed up with their “them”. The challenge with many of us is that when we come from dysfunctional homes, we find people who did not, as incompatible with us or boring.

[quote] if it really is just them, then I am responsible for my safety and disengage.

No-one - not even a highly-trained licensed psychoanalyst - has ever bothered to explain this to me in terms of personal responsibility, or encouraged me to take a detached holistic viewpoint of how a BPD relative affects the matrix of all other relationships. I thought I was just a weakling locked in a struggle and unable to cope with a mean old manchild.

This explains why I have come up against apathetic walking depression and rock-bottom self-esteem of mysterious origin all my life, and why I have spent most of my life blaming either myself or my father for our strife and wishing we were both “better” and “different”.

I see now that, in reality, this is a delusional childish wish, because he’s just a sick crazy victim of his own trauma who won’t and literally can’t be accountable for treating others right. Therefore, as an adult, it is my responsibility to protect myself against his crazy and detach from the situation completely. Moreover, it is my province to deliberately welcome others into my life who are not of his same ilk, and to learn to live with functionality.

R217, you might find a subreddit about this helpful. There’s one for adult children of borderlines. I don’t really go there anymore (I used an alt/special account for it), but after my BPD mother died, I did, trying to resolve a few things.

I also find the “walking on eggshells” test a good one. Especially if you’ve grown up under one. We should have a natural fear of offending other people, out of simple respect and consideration. But the dread of spending time with these people - because you know there’s going to be a blowup no matter how careful you are - is another sign.

[quote]I also find the “walking on eggshells” test a good one

100% this.

I don't want to offend anyone, but MSWs should not be treating individuals with something as severe at BPD. Without enough knowledge, a therapist can easily be sucked in by a BPD. The current thinking is that the best treatment is something called CBT--cognitive behavioral therapy.

R217:

R216 here.

People do this differently. If the BPD remains physically abusive and is dangerous, disengage completely.

I actually have worked out lots of stuff with my mother in regards to our relationship and I did so understanding the difference between her being her own person, with her own trauma, and baggage, while seeing myself as my own person, with my own trauma which created my baggage.

That said, I also understood and still understand that I am not responsible for her healing, but I am also not responsible for having created the wound, not the trauma she carries and chooses to not heal, nor the fact that she then repeated the cycle, by giving birth to me, and being my mom who raised me.

She is also not responsible for healing my wounds, even if she created them.

What is all of this? It’s a recognition of BOUNDARIES.

For whatever reasons that I cannot yet explain because I haven’t the awareness to presently, or because perhaps awareness about this might show up in bits and pieces of information, I do not understand why I needed to process this beside my mother while we both still had an opportunity to do so. So I cannot tell you why right now, but I can tell you that for me, it had been a really big deal to forgive my mom, and to let her know I did, and to also let her know that I understand what happened and that I love her despite it.

And I’m going to say something that I know conventional therapists/psychologists usually disagree with, however, for me, it is true: showing compassion and kindness to my mom, while also drawing my boundaries and asking her to explain hers to me in a normal way (such as: say your words mom-just ask me what you need and don’t scream, and I will listen to your request and answer your questions) and responding appropriately to her, has been HUGE and in a positive way.

We can now have normal conversations and express affection to each other. She allows me to tell her what I think or feel and even if her immediate reaction is her usual defensive and irrational one, she quickly calms down if I explain to her that her response is inappropriate and that she needs to make an attempt to express herself and communicate her needs to me as a person who will value her points of view, just as I am also deserving of this.

And it’s working, R217. The hatred and blaming and finger pointing is over. As I said above, in one of my posts: it has taken time, however, I can see what’s hers, what’s mine, what she’s responsible for, what I’m responsible for fixing, even if she originally caused to need fixing, and that we can now both see each other as unbound from one another, unmeshed from the trauma we both lived with as mother and child, until just the last few years.

I don’t know if this is necessarily considered a healthy way of healing, but R217, guess what? My mom is totally fucked up, yes -but that’s my mom, and she is not all I knew but she was the most meaningful and impactful toward me in who I knew and know, and I understand that she needed this more than I did, even though at one point, I believed that I needed to speak my peace and walk away from her forever.

Does that resonate with any of you here or make sense?

I did not seek my mother out in order to continue a cycle of unresolved trauma-codependency. I sought her out because for me specifically, (and please understand that this is something I really do genuinely believe is not recommended, yet worked for me specifically, even though it is RARE that it works for anyone and I do not claim that it will), I somehow instinctively believed that the healing from this had to happen with, and beside or in close proximity, to my BPD mom, healing as well.

Continued from R221, Pt. 2/2-

t’s almost like my therapy and my work in therapy, became a real life , in real time, as it happens, healing experience for her too, because whatever I learned, I immediately shared it with her and she trusted it because it was coming from me, her daughter, rather than resisting it from a therapist when sitting in a therapist’s office, being said by the therapist, to her, in regards to her trauma and how she repeated infliction of trauma upon me, her daughter.

The BPD is not just resistant to therapy because the therapist challenges them normally by teaching them healthy coping skills, the BPD is resistant because the BPD doesn’t trust anyone new to her environment. So not only is there THAT hurdle to overcome with treatment of a BPD, after the newness wears off and the therapist is no longer scary or a threat or a potentially untrustworthy and dangerous threat to the BPD, then there’s this almost impossible process of pulling teeth with the BPD, because the BPD will rarely ever tell anyone the truth, unless that “anyone” is the child or person they hurt. Big “IF”, because they are resistant to telling anyone and everyone the truth. However, if there’s a slight possibility that they might, it’s going to be told and shared from them to the person closest to them.

I am not my mother’s defacto therapist, but the really good news here is that I am also no longer her victim and she in turn, is no longer my abuser, and not just because she abused me until I cut her off and walked away forever with zero contact, (which is unfortunately, the only way to do it with a BPD 80% or more of the time in order to detach and get healthy) but because we both admitted that it happened, and made an implicit or unspoken agreement to repair it before it was too late and she died of old age, which she eventually will, or in leue of me wrestling with this unhealed trauma for the rest of my life, and unsuccessfully so, as has been the case for me retrospectively, until now.

Thanks to CoViD, this whole process was sped into high gear and has managed to remain in tact. We’re OK now. I’m ready to move on and can and so can she. There’s no acrimony yet more importantly, there’s no “pretending that everything is OK just to be nice or because I pity her and she gets to be an asshole and abuse me” mother and daughter relationship, where no one takes personal responsibility for their bad behavior and no one takes responsibility for healing from the bad behavior in spite of not being responsible for creating it. Everyone gets their portion and does what is to be done with it as they wish, but in recognition of what was done and why it’s better to do it differently and allow themselves to do it differently to, next to each other, in a respectful way that allows for respect, consideration, thoughtfulness, admitting wrongs, accepting responsibility for wrongs, genuinely apologizing and making changes to back that up, by creating boundaries that may not be absolutely healthy or perfect at 100%, but that are resilient enough at 40% to 60%, because with a BPD, it will not reach a level of resilience at 100%, EVER. Never gonna happen, but 40% is more like it and that is actually a huge achievement when seeing it from a weights & measurements perspective.

I can honestly say today, that I love and understand my mom and forgive her because I now understand her. And this ability to love her, understand her, have empathy for her, and forgive her, has made me really strong inside and I really needed that. I was not before, and I did not know how to shore that strength up within myself and for me, this is what worked.

You are a good son, r222. Your mom is lucky to have you in her life.

In the old days of DL, R221/R222 would have been promptly told to get a fucking blog.

R224, 😘.

R223, I’m my mother’s daughter, not son. And... I’m not good nor am I bad but I’m fair and I wanna be happy and I’m willing to compromise in order to do that and in the end?

I love my mom and I’d rather treat her well than not.

You should really question the BPD label.

It really means the people can have 24/7 access to mental health professionals. Of course, they need all the medical care too. It is an emotional and cognitive based disorder that is outside the control of the person.

When mental health professionals or health care support people bad mouth a client with BPD, when they deny them access to mental or medical care because they have this BPD label, you know that it is that health care team or health insurance company increasing stigma and discrimination. More importantly, they are purposely putting this person at increase risk for suicide and other negative health and life outcomes.

If a person wants 24/7 access to care, they should really be given a medical team with a psychiatrist. They should not be given to a master-level talk therapist who works in one of those small, shit offices, who can only afford to use their personal cell phone.

Hey, the guy who sounds BPD-ish is back!

Sure, it's all the medical professionals' fault. Not yours.

Only the best for BPD! Twenty four hour, cream of the crop professionals at your beck and call.

shouldn't we all have this "medical care"?

R222 beautiful, thank you.

Another tip from me, a crazy son from a crazy mother: when in doubt, use humor.

I separated from my partner of many, many years around 18 months ago, and my mother still has not asked why, or if I'm okay. I think she's BPD but there's this narcissistic edge that throws me. Is that a component of BPD? Total self-absorption?

She still sends cards to the old address I shared with my ex. She has totally glossed the whole thing. And so I stopped talking to her because, what is the point when I was going through something heavy and she only wanted to talk about a new move she just saw or something equally mundane?

She finally sent me a letter recently, and I opened it, trembling. It was....nothing. All about her, what she's up to during Covid, her projects, her boyfriend. Just like everything was hunky dory. Sent it to my ex because she doesn't know my fucking address because she has never asked.

I know this sounds more like narcissism, but I also know that her mother was a raging bitch and it sort of destroyed my once-sensitive mother. She was a delicate child, and has presented as severely wounded and love-hungry my whole life. I actually think she wants ME to be HER parent, is what it is. And that is why she sends me updates about HER and doesn't ask about ME. Because as her parent (in her mind), I should be much more curious about and invested in HER well-being, and should minimize my own problems when engaging with her. You know, like a parent does. BUT I'M THE CHILD.

She can be exhibit a general warmth, but she does NOT show empathy. She has self-pity in spades, however. She also has a low tolerance for frustration and is prone to tantrum or flee instead of talking things out logically. And one time when I told her I was depressed when I was in my 20s, she said very histrionically "O no....if you aren't okay....I'LL KILL MYSELF!!!" and started sobbing hysterically.

My mother has been married and divorced many times, and lots of boyfriends in between. Can never be without a man. Very few female friendships -- and they always end badly. She would bond hard and fast with someone, and talk them up like they were god's gift, and just her BEST FRIEND in the world! Then one tiff, and she would drop them, then spend years disparaging them to me as though she never even liked or trusted the ex-friend from the world go.

I don't know...Can a person just be super emotionally stunted? Just generically emotionally fucked up? Or is this pretty standard BPD stuff?

R231 I’m not a psychiatrist but your mother sounds like a narcissist. There’s a lot of overlap with Cluster B personality disorders.

Sorry to hear that the person who should always have your back isn’t there for you.

The BPD I knew all dated "normal" people and pretty much ruined their lives. I have always wondered if a BPD can date another BPD and would that cause a supernova of drama?

Yes R231, sounds classic to me. Especially this:

[quote]I think she's BPD but there's this narcissistic edge that throws me. Is that a component of BPD? Total self-absorption?

R231 your mother sounds like a demonstrative, weepy, melodramatic version of my father, whom I suspect is a narcissist.

[quote] was a delicate child, and has presented as severely wounded and love-hungry my whole life. I actually think she wants ME to be HER parent, is what it is.

Not sure of your mother’s history exactly, but this sounds about right for my NPD dad. He was one of nine kids in a poor hillbilly household, beaten and neglected by his drunk dad and his mad mother. He is now estranged from every single one of his siblings, half of whom turned out to be addicts or criminals. He did have loving stable foster parents from the age of about seven to fifteen or sixteen, however, and he treated those poor people like shit (delinquency, abuse, etc.). So this excuse only goes so far.

[quote] she doesn't ask about ME. Because as her parent (in her mind), I should be much more curious about and invested in HER well-being, and should minimize my own problems when engaging with her. You know, like a parent does.

Ditto. I lived in the same house as my father for seventeen years, and not once did he ask about my school life or personal life and well-being. He does not know now what I do for a living, who my friends are, or even what my sexual orientation is. He just doesn’t give a fuck. When on rare occasion he does ask me a banal question or opinion it always comes with heavy sighing and eye-rolling like it’s effort, or a long unsolicited tirade about his own feelings on the subject, or - if I make a minimal response - little backhanded comments about how difficult and negative *I* am. He’s also a homophobe and a misogynist, which makes things even more fun.

[quote] She can be exhibit a general warmth, but she does NOT show empathy. She has self-pity in spades, however. She also has a low tolerance for frustration and is prone to tantrum or flee instead of talking things out logically. And one time when I told her I was depressed when I was in my 20s, she said very histrionically "O no....if you aren't okay....I'LL KILL MYSELF!!!"

Exactly this. My father has his jovial persona for company, neighbours and relatives. In private however, different story. He is usually the type to seethe in a corner like a black hole in the room, but invariably at some point will explode over minor shit, even when he isn’t confronted about his cuntiness. He will also take off for parts unknown for hours or days at a time if really upset. He cannot just sit there and listen to calm reasoned objections to his behaviour. My poor Frau mother scuttles around after him with sandwiches trying to smooth his feathers, it’s pathetic.

I once made the mistake of confession depression and suicidal ideation to him, and he just looked at me with icy eyes and said, “so? What do I care? Do it if you want.” And I could see he meant it. I was eighteen at the time, a mess of hormones on some very poorly-prescribed medications that were making me crazy. It was not the thing to say at that point. He acts like he wants to make nice with me now that he’s getting older and less capable, but I know it’s all fake bullshit because I remember those words clear as day. I also suspect he’s gaslighting me to my mother, but that’s another story.

Anyway, sorry to hear about your mother. It’s a bitch of a situation dealing with this.

[R231] We have the same mother. Mine called me on my birthday to talk about herself and then ended with “well I hope you have a good day even though it’s raining”. She lives 1,550 miles away and it was sunny where I am. Even the weather is about her!

R233, that’s an interesting one. My sister had a longtime first boyfriend who had a physical disfigurement. She pulled a lot of shit with him and he was a rageaholic. The next was a seven year relationship with a handsome genial guy with a million friends. Since she is exceptionally attractive, they stuck it out as a couple. Their relationship was tempestuous and dramatic, lots of acting out, it would take pages to outline it.

When he broke up with her and took up with another seemingly-normal woman, she went ballistic.

I don’t know what was wrong with him, but someone who puts up with years of her shenanigans isn’t totally healthy. He probably had some sort of savior complex and enjoyed the drama. He didn’t seem to have any serious disorder.

She has no trouble attracting men, even on the cusp of 50, but the normal ones go running for the hills quickly. There are a few convenient idiots who stick around to be used by her. She’s incredibly snotty to them and it’s like she’s daring them to leave.

R235 Oh wow he is the male version of my mother! How can a person be so blind and unselfconscious of their crazy behavior? I'm almost jealous! To be so oblivious. What does that feel like? Do you think they are...numb? Happily ignorant? If you peeked behind the curtain into your dad's inner world would it be chaos or calm? What a waste of a life. And what a waste of the gift of parenthood. Raising a child can be a joy and a deeply fulfilling experience. I'm so sorry for those of us who have not received proper love and care. It makes adulting more confusing than it already is.

R236 I am so sorry. I know the emptiness and impotence one feels dealing with such a mother. It's surreal. And you see other peoples' moms being attentive, doting, curious, concerned....And then you look back at your "mom" and it's this...void. I have struggled my entire adult life with the question of "what are the pros vs. cons of keeping this person in my life?" As I say, for me, her glossing my breakup of a 16 year relationship was the absolute tipping point for me. Having spoken to her in 18 months. But you know what? She hasn't called or emailed me, either. So when I feel guilty, I bounce that off of a friend and they reaffirm for me that yeah....that's fucked up.

I am really sorry that your birthday, and I'm sure many, many other days, months, years of your life, was marred by your mother's failure to mother. Sending a big hug to all of you.

*haven't spoken, rather

For those who here who write about your parents’ selfishness and inability to treat you as their child, rather than to treat you as the child whom they were supposed to parent, please know that while this is definitely narcissism, it is also something VERY common with those who have BPD.

Unfortunately, BPDs see their children as beings that are there to protect THEM and tend to THEIR needs, not the other way around. So while a narcissist may also behave this way and do so even to the point where the behavior is extreme, the BPD also does so, the difference being, that they might do it to a lesser extent, and sometimes, even as much as a full blown narcissist.

BDP is a spectrum disorder and no two are exactly alike. Some of them definitely have serious trauma and overlapping depression and obsessive compulsive issues. Others are just looking for attention and perhaps are “brats”. I just don’t think you can make a blanket statement about a mental disorder without coming off as myopic.

*BPD*

R241, no one here is doing that. Recognizing that BPDs have overlapping traits with other personality disorders is exactly what we’re saying.

Also, all of this information is actually new to most of us. Only in the last 15 to 10 years has this information been accessible online.

First and foremost, I highly encourage anyone who suspects that a loved one has this and/or they do as well, to seek out professional help from a licensed clinician who preferably specializes in treating personality disorders.

Also, please note that it just now being theorized in a serious manner, that some of these people also have presentations of behaviors that align with autism on the spectrum for those who have autism.

This is serious and complex stuff. We’re just here, sharing our stories and experiences with each other.

Answers aren’t to be found on this thread. That’s what trained and licensed psychologists are for, and their services definitely ought to be utilized for these disorders, whether it’s for the benefit of the person presenting in these spectrums, and/or for those who are affected by them due to their interpersonal relationships with them.