The greatest musical of all time?

Musical on the stage or film musical? I’d guess the former but you have a photo of a film musical.

Either way, I’ll submit Cabaret. It’s subversive and melodic and just a perfect experience, either in the theater or the cinema.

Xanadu

R1 stage or screen.

R3, both.

Just for pure escapism and mindless entertainment, I'd have to say 42nd Street.

Can’t Stop the Music

On stage, Gypsy.

The Young Girls of Rochefort!

Grease

The Miracle Worker.

Who can forget Helen's big solo "Wa-WA!"

What's the difference between a musical and musical theater?

I loved the music in R&H's Carousel. I also loved Bernstein's Candide.

Here's the recent production of "Carousel" at Lincoln Center in its entirety on Youtube. Such beautiful music, really.

The B'way musical with the greatest number of iconic scenes, iconic moments is probably "My Fair Lady" .

In all seriousness, Gypsy.

Billy Bigelow was miscast imho.

Flahooley

For me, “Kiss Me, Kate” and “A Little Night Music” are the best musicals in terms of score/book/structure. I agree that “Gypsy” and “My Fair Lady” come very close. I think that “West Side Story” and “Carousel” have some of the best scores, but their books detract from their overall quality.

My father loved "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers," but the title sounds kinda inappropriate now.

On stage, I’d go with “Gypsy” for the sheer number of solid hits and for the humor.

On film, “The Band Wagon” is the essence of everything movie musicals could do, and did so seamlessly.

"Singin' in the Rain," "West Side Story."

[quote]"Singin' in the Rain,"

Music isn't original to the production.

Singin' in the Rain was originally conceived by MGM producer Arthur Freed, the head of the "Freed Unit" responsible for turning out MGM's lavish musicals, as a vehicle for his catalog of songs written with Nacio Herb Brown for previous MGM musical films of the 1929–39 period.

Bajour! (too soon?)

Agree with previous posters about Gypsy. Along with the great story, songs, and humour, there’s a psychological complexity often missing in musicals. You have a frustrated, overbearing stage mother trying to live through her daughters — it’s a great oedipal drama.

Les Miserables

[quote]Music isn't original to the production.

Where was that specified as a requirement?

No contest. "Lost Horizon" is the bestest. "The world is a circle" jerk

[quote]Where was that specified as a requirement?

It shouldn't have to be.

Camelot. The play, not the movie.

OP has issues. Nevertheless,

"Greatest musical of all time?"

"Show Boat."

With "Porgy and Bess" and "Oklahoma" after it.

"Favorite," "most currently popular," "biggest hit" and "made me laugh/cry" aren't the criteria for "greatest" anything.

R30 loves her quotation marks.

" Follies"

OK. The Sound of Music is popular. It's a classic. So is The King and I. So is My Fair Lady. But IMO, the greatest of all time has to be West Side Story. Why? You may ask. Because. Before WSS musicals were all fluffy Rogers and Hammerstein, LErner and Lowe romantic. But with West Side Story the musical was modernized. The choreography, the music, the libretto, it was just glorious. And it translated from stage to screen beautifully. It endures. And as we look at the continuum WSS stands there as the gold standard. There is before WSS and After. the delineation is very clear.

In stage... Gypsy. On film, The Sound of Music .. runner up is West Side Story for both

Repo: The Genetic Opera. Okay maybe not. Rocky Horror Picture Show was great though—does that count?

This is priceless. In fact the entire opening montage is priceless. The aerial view of NYC, the music, OMG. I've seen this in a theatre. 35 mm Rita Moreno was there to introduce it and the afterwards to give a talk, and Yes she is 80 but it was wonderful!!!!!!!!!

r28 Well then, that leaves out "The Band Wagon" as well. And would you also eliminate any shows or movies that have had songs from other shows added? Then kiss "42nd St." (the stage version) goodbye, too.

The most successful ever to my mind would be "My Fair Lady." It's got a great story (they actually IMPROVED on the GBS play), and there's not a weak song in the score.

It's funny, though, that they've never re-captured the magic of the OBC or the film (which is second to the OBC, but still great) in any revivals.

My second choice would be "Guys and Dolls," although it's not a score I often listen to (maybe since I was in it in high school). But that's another show without a bad song in the score, and though the plot isn't compelling, it's got great characters.

I have no issue with one or two songs that have been featured somewhere else, but SITR is the K-tel Best of Arthur Freed Collection. And you won't hear any argument from me on 42nd Street.

[quote]But with West Side Story the musical was modernized.

I'm sure WSS seems quaint to some people now, just as you dismissed innovators Rogers & Hammerstein as "fluffly." One might just as easily say there is Before Carousel and After. Or we could put our line in the sand at Hair or A Chorus Line or a dozen other spots.

I LOVE Sweet Charity the movie.

Not even that found of Shirley MacLaine in general, but I LOVE that movie.

Not the greatest musical, just my favorite.

R40, my point is that there was an evolution and WSS was a clear marker of innovation. Yes, if you like, the Rogers & Hammerstein Fluff, as I referred to it was probably considered innovative in some respects, at some point, but it did stagnate. It was entertaining, it pushed all the right buttons with catchy memorable tunes, etc. but if you go back to...maybe Ziegfeld, and the musical revues, and even to the opera, operettas, etc. even before that, with their plots and storylines, you can see fusion going on and innovation taking place. Of course WSS might seem quaint today. I'd imagine Hamilton will see quaint at some future point as well. The point is, with Carousel, Oklahoma, My Fair Lady, Sound of Music, Hello Dolly, FIddler on the Roof, The King & I, etc.etc.etc. the Broadway musical plateaued, and WSS was the explosion at that time, that propelled us into another realm of musical theatre. Chorus line, Rent, Chicago, etc wouldn't have happened without it.

Stage: A Chorus Line, The Phantom of the Opera

Screen: South Pacific, The Unsinkable Molly Brown

My idea of hell is being strapped in a chair and forced to watch The Sound of Music.

Film: The Band Wagon

Musicals reflect the times. In the 40's and 50's it was one thing, then the 60's and 70's another. It's about which demographics support the theater, too. If your audience is 60 yr olds willing to pay $150, then you will run theatrical performances that appeal to them. I forgot one of the most innovative of all. Hair. Yes. THink about it.

R44 I feel the same way about Oklahoma and South Pacific.

West Side Story. Nothing else comes close.

Moulin Rouge!

Very broad question requiring very specific answers. It is fine to say Cabaret, but do you mean the stage musical or the movie? Two completely different musicals.

FYI, for the WSS fans, Showboat when it first opened was just a revolutionary as WSS, and now WSSS seems just as quaint as Showboat.

Cabaret.

Great music, great performances, chilling story.

^^ movie

Well since OP used a movie poster for his pic, I assumed he meant movie musical.

West Side Story! Duh.

Where does Annie fit?

[R44] Funny you should say that. When I was a hospice nurse in San Diego, I worked with a youngish, terminal cancer patient at her home. Her grief-stricken husband mentioned that TSOM was not only her favorite movie, but that she would watch it every day.

Now I think it’s a good film, but manipulative, phony history.

But this was about what the patient loved. Since her hospital bed had been set up in their living room, during the three days I was there, I ended up playing that movie for her a total of nine times, and instructed the night shift to do it too, which they did.

Though she was unconscious, I knew she’d be aware of it on a subliminal level. And her poor youngish husband said she loved it so.

There are more ways to provide comfort than just slinging meds.

R56 - The world needs more nurses like you!

Even though it is joked about a lot here, I enjoy "Follies" for its score and commentary on human phoniness. The book has been altered so many times that it takes a lot of research to see how close it was to the original, and no one will ever agree on how it should be done, especially if and when it is made into a movie.

As far as stage to screen, "Guys and Dolls" is sheer perfection, but it has been done badly (the 2009 revival) which was very noticeable to those who loved the 1992 revival. "Kiss Me Kate" was altered greatly from stage to screen, and even when the feminists got ahold of it for the recent revival, it didn't lose its delightful sting. The film is still quite enjoyable, and one of MGM's best. I love the big Rodgers and Hammerstein screen versions, and all are constantly revived on stage. I find "Carousel" to be best as far as score, "Oklahoma!" for scope, "The King & I" for passion, and "South Pacific" for exotic bliss. As far as "The Sound of Music", you can't argue with the billions who claim it to be their favorite movie of all time, and fortunately, it does laugh at itself within the context of the book and script. For historical purposes, "Show Boat" with the 1936 version really gives you the scope of the original show. The 1951 MGM version cuts out a great deal of the last act, but is still close to greatness. Ava Gardner's close-up at the end is exquisite.

For stage shows that have never been made into movies (outside of "Follies"), "Ragtime" is fabulous. "Pippin" is also a delight, and long overdue for a film if they can do it correctly.

"The Prom" was fantastic on stage, and I hope that they don't screw it up for the upcoming film. That being said, it would be funny to see Meryl and Glenn going up against each other at the Oscars for "The Prom" and "Sunset Blvd." if they happen to make it out in the same year.

My Fair Lady

R58's enthusiasm and good taste do not excuse missing the "greatest musical" theme of the thread.

I can look at Ava all day long and her rendition of "Bill" is my favorite, but what makes a musical the greatest is not her face at the end, exquisite as it is.

This thread will end in tears.

Les Parapluies de Cherbourg (The Umbrellas of Cherbourg)

Cabaret on film is not only the greatest movie musical, it's a great movie period. And it's a lot better than the stage version. The structure of the book and the editing are streets ahead, Joel Grey is definitive, and although Liza was too good a performer as Sally Bowles, she captured the fragility as nobody else could have. It's also more captivating than the novel.

On stage, I agree there is Before WSS and then After there's the modern era of musicals. Oklahoma! started it, but WSS is the borderline. Of course, a lot of the reason for that is that it was the start of Sondheim's career. The other collaborators made dazzling contributions to WSS, but Sondheim continued to extend what the musical was capable of, even unto Pacific Overtures, which makes Hamilton look like Irene.

Little Shop Of Horrors is my personal favorite.

The bottom line is that there are too many musicals and to choose one is like asking Ma Kettle who her favorite child is. Different movie musicals and different stage musicals become favorites for varying reasons. Intelligent adults ask me my favorite movie star or favorite song or favorite book, and my thoughts range from "Are you for real?" to scrambling to try to think of something polite to say. So the next time they ask me my favorite movie musical, I'll say "Song of Norway", and watch their face drop.

r49 -- Watch out, gurl! R22 will be coming for you!

Fiddler on the Roof: Love the movie. I saw it on stage, but a high school performance, but it was still pretty great.

Funny thing Happened on the way to the Forum: One of my favorite movies. Have never seen it on stage.

Spamalot: Not sure if it counts as a musical, but there is a lot of music and it's the funniest thing I've ever seen on stage.

As far as musical comedies go, I think "Music Man" is best. For musical (dramas) I nominate WSS.

Mary Poppins

[quote]There are more ways to provide comfort than just slinging meds.

Headphones R56?

On stage I would go with Showboat and Les Miserables. Film is Sound of Music - Fiddler a close second, WSS a close third.

Hamilton!

If you really think about the art form at its peak of story, music and innovation?

"Showboat"

Otherwise on stage I'd say "Gypsy", and on film I'd say "Meet Me in St. Louis".

All I can say, OP, is that it's NOT The Sound of Music. In any form.

Actually R30 makes a good argument.

No matter what you think about Showboat and Porgy they are the most revived musicals in B'Way history. And that is a testament to their greatness. 3 Penny Opera is up there with them for revivals too.

Personally as I posted earlier, for me it's My Fair Lady because it has so many iconic scenes and moments that everyone knows.

"Greatest" does not necessarily mean "your favorite".

If I had to chose a movie musical it's Singing in the Rain. Meet Me in St. Louis second.

R75, I question 3 Penny Opera because, in the English speaking world, there is no definitive script/translation. Virtually every production is a new musical based on 3PO.

On stage: Into The Woods or A Little Night Music

On screen: Chicago or Cabaret

[quote] On stage, Gypsy.

I am a huge Merman fan, but I would have to vote for SOUTH PACIFIC.

"Everything's Comin' Up Roses' notwithstanding, no Act I finale sends chills down my spine like Emile singing a reprise of 'Some Enchanted Evening' as the curtain falls. By the end of the show, I'm always a weeping mess.

In Act I, the following songs come at you one after another: "Bali Ha'i", I'm Gonna Wash That Man Right Outa My Hair", a reprise of "Some Enchanted Evening" , "I'm in Love with a Wonderful Guy", and "Younger Than Springtime". I couldn't help but wonder if opening night audiences realized at the time there were witnessing such musical theater greatness.

And R33, eight years before WSS, Rodgers and Hammerstein addressed racism head on in SOUTH PACIFIC, not in an oblique way, but by having two of the main characters, Cable and Nellie, face the fact that their were prejudiced. Hardly what I'd call 'fluff'.

The one that produced the most standards that are still being sung today: "Babes in Arms."

I love Pippin, but it has no ending. That's a fatal flaw.

The Threepenny Opera, regardless of whether someone "question(s)" it. It's a musical I can enjoy whenever a new version pops up. My favorite was the Raul Julia-Ellen Greene version at Lincoln Center in 1976. Second was the senior class play at Taylor-Allderdice High School in Pittsburgh a few years earlier. Least favorite: the one with Sting as Macheath.

Next come Cabaret, Les Miserables, and A Chorus Line.

West Side Story

On stage: A Little Night Music, Sweeney Todd, Gypsy On film: Cabaret

I'm wondering how many of you have SEEN these musicals on the stage? I've also waiting for some Streisand worshipers to vote Funny Girl in, though it doesn't deserve to be mentioned.

Gypsy and ALNM. (She Loves Me, but that's a personal preference; Porgy is really in a separate class). Movie musicals? No opinion

My personal favorite is Company, but the greatest stage musical would have to be My Fair Lady or Gypsy. As far as films go, Cabaret or Sound of Music.

Interesting thing about "Gypsy" -- and I read this years ago so it's not my original observation, nor can I cite it -- is a line in "Some People." In "South Pacific," (1949) Nellie sings "I'm as normal as blueberry pie," and a decade later Rose sings, "Goodbye to blueberry pie." The writer's point is cogent: Sondheim was putting the older musical traditions out to pasture. What is seen as a symbol of stability and normality is now thrown out the window, of no further use.

Not sure if Sondheim means to do so, but it would be typical of his genius to throw this little bomb.

Interesting thing about "Gypsy" -- and I read this years ago so it's not my original observation, nor can I cite it -- is a line in "Some People." In "South Pacific," (1949) Nellie sings "I'm as normal as blueberry pie," and a decade later Rose sings, "Goodbye to blueberry pie." The writer's point is cogent: Sondheim was putting the older musical traditions out to pasture. What is seen as a symbol of stability and normality is now thrown out the window, of no further use.

Not sure if Sondheim means to do so, but it would be typical of his genius to throw this little bomb.

My first double post!

Sweeney Todd, Gypsy, A Little Night Music are all perfect musicals.

West Side Story has tons of issues, but also has the most thrilling music ever written for a Broadway show.

I'm a little surprised at all the love for "My Fair Lady". It has a great score, has extremely witty dialogue and is perfectly cast, but it IS a little longer than it should be, and is padded in many areas. Still, that last scene with Higgins "singing" I've Grown Accustomed To Her Face gets me every time.

This is the greatest musical of all time—

Stage- Les Miz Film- Oklahoma Both West Side Story

I'd say Les Mis for the stage if it didn't have the awful 80's orchestration. The synths, electric guitars, and drum kits absolutely ruin the weight of everything going on in the story. That's one of the only good things about the movie version of it, it completely eliminated all of the cliche 80's sounds and just left the traditional orchestra, and as a result the music behind Russell Crow's screeching sounds lovely.

Les Mis - I LOVED the BBC-PBS version with NO music.

I never realized how hot Dominic West really is.

Grease

A Chorus Line

Dreamgirls

My One and Only

Annie

Best Little Whorehouse in Texas

Do Re Mi

How Now Dow Jones?

Hamilton

The Producers

Rent

Best Little Whorehouse deserves best movie musical simply for Hard Candy Christmas. Now THIS is how you do tragedy.

Show Boat and Porgy and Bess are the two most enduring musicals pre- Golden Age, which in my mind begins with Oklahoma! 1943 and ends with Fiddler on the Roof 1964.

Gypsy is the greatest of the Golden Age musicals. My Fair Lady is perfect, too, but slightly too polished, and too standard.

Post Golden Age, Follies and Sweeney Todd are the apex, although all of Sondheim's oeuvre are superior.

R97 - Dolly looks younger now than than in the picture you posted from 25 years ago.

I love Dolly!

Fish gotta swim and birds gotta fly, but honey, we gotta decide are we picking things we love because they're popular and fun, or are we picking what we believe is the greatest? Because I love Sound of Music, and I love The King & I, and I love The Music Man, which IMO was absolutely flawless in so many ways, and I love Chicago and A Chorus Line, and Funny Girl, and My Fair Lady, and A FUnny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum.

But as for "The Greatest" I have to say that with every generation, as we as a society evolve culturally, there will be a defining moment, when a production is the most innovative, defining an era. So yes, WSS. and now, Hamilton.

As for Porgy and Bess? Mon Dieu! This is in a class by itself. It is the bridge between Classical and modern theatre, as between Opera and a Broadway Musical. Porgy and Bess is the mountaintop.The pinnacle of American Classic theatre. It is its own genre. It is timeless and the music is enduring. The music was just as amazing when Miles Davis recorded it, as it was when Gershwin wrote it.

West Side Story... as great as the music is, the orchestration, it seems more like a modern opera, high art. It just didn't seem to have the emotional impact of a great musical. A song cycle with good choreography, not a musical.

Surprised that no one yet mentioned Evita. I can't separate LuPone's performance from it - saw her the first year of the run, and there's never been anything that matched the emotional impact of it for me.

Movie? Cabaret. Also Umbrellas of Cherbourg needs a mention on this thread (even though Deneuve's lip synching was too noticeable)

Also, only one mention for Hamilton confirms that DL is largely for seniors.

Company, seriously. One of Sondheim's most intelligent works, a great dissection of the life of a closeted gay man who refuses to admit to himself that he's gay. It's also just a great dissection of love and relationships in general. Sorry-Grateful is one of his best pieces. Ladies Who Lunch became a diva staple which sucks because those women tend to take the tragedy out of the song and just use it as an excuse to be "funny" and loud (cough cough Patti). All around, Company is one of the better pieces of modern theatre. Not to mention it pioneered the idea of the "thinkpiece" musical.

R102 Because those who actually enjoy theatre and aren't just tourists from Flyoverstan don't give that pedestrian fad bullshit a second glance.

R104 = Trump voter.

R105 Hamilton will not be remembered the way any of the other musicals in this thread have been. In fact, it's already being forgotten about. Do you know why that is? It's because Hamilton isn't art. Hamilton's main fanbase is the 8th grade theatre class crowd who also love Glee and Be More Chill. Hamilton is pedestrian, intellectually shallow bullshit targeted at the lowest common denominator. Why the fuck do you think the recorded version is on Disney+? Do you see the filmed versions Sondheim's musicals on Disney+? What about Cabaret? No? Didn't think so!

Your musical is swill. Enjoy it while it lasts because the world is already starting to forget about it, and in a few years it'll be about as memorable as Rent.

congratulations, r103, for grafting your own take on the plot of Company onto the actual book.

As for Hamilton, Miranda is a showman, no doubt about it. Is he a gifted composer or lyricist? No, and none of his shows will ever be the greatest musical of all time.

r105 = Big, Fat Stupidhead.

Not liking a rapsical [italic]does not make one a "Trump voter."[/italic]

I have no intention of seeing Hamilton, even though I can watch it on Disney+ for free, and I have never voted Repubican in my life. And I vote.

I'm not r104, btw.

You seem nice, r108.

I don't have to be "nice," r109, to idiots who think liking or not liking any particular musical is indicative of someone's presidential voting pattern.

Hamilton's audience isn't eighty year old queens still playing their cast album of Follies on their turntables. It's modern theater geared for modern audiences.

r110 has stated her boundaries!

I don't get why some people still think Hamilton is this big groundbreaking leftist piece of race theatre. There's a reason Toni Morrison funded The Haunting Of Lin Manuel-Miranda before she died.

R111 And by modern audiences you mean rich 40 year old white people who say shit like "I would've voted for Obama a THIRD time if I could" any time they're in the same vicinity as a black person (which isn't often).

Get a load of the cranky Broadway elderqueens shaking their walkers in rage against Hamilton!

Show or film- big difference. Sometime stage to screen is better, sometimes worse or mixed.

Lots of people like Gypsy. I’ve never gotten it. The story borders on camp and the score is about a subtle as a hard rock concert.

A Little Night Music or Chorus Line (originals) where the best stage musicals for me. Film, Cabaret, Wizard of Oz, and even some of the MGM Garland vehicles like Meet Me in St Louis. My Fair Lady is close but should have used Andrews not Hepburn. Andrews interpretation of the score and her brilliant diction were a showbiz match in heaven.

I used to know what was considered the musical with the perfect score. I thought it was My Fair Lady but now you would have to put a gun to my head to get me to listen to "With a Little Bit Of Luck" and "Get Me to the Church on Time" again.

No, r115, some of us are pretty indifferent to Hamilton. But when the question is "greatest musical of all time," someone was bound to speak up and say great, it ain't.

R42 Yes, West Side Story is a masterpiece and probably my favorite musical, but, man, you're a fucking idiot.

I'm the original poster who observed the seniors at the DL Daycare wouldn't like Hamilton. (Rest the outrage, I'm 69 myself). But I do think there is a good argument that to qualify for the title of Best Musical of ALL TIME, well it should stand the test of time. I think Rent is a good example - while Seasons of Love still packs that overdramatic punch of "musical theater" - seen today the musical seems way dated and trying too hard.

Chorus Line - the verdict is still out.

Company holds up.

All just examples of musicals that survive the zeitgeist and those that are unplugged by it.

West Side Story, the stage version and the film. Hands down, say goodnight ladies!

I am going to get a lot of crap for this but I loved the televised live version of Jesus Christ Superstar a few years back with John Legend and Brandon Victor Dixon. I am definitely not saying JC Superstar is the best musical of all time but I think that version knocked it out of the ballpark. It got a 100% rating on Rotten Tomatoes....and the Evangelicals hated it.

R122 Not judging the whole musical, but I thought that TV version really exposed Legend's vocal limitations.

On stage, it's Gypsy. The role of Rose is one of the greatest roles ever written and gives the performer a range unlike just about any other role I can think of. She has to be funny, pathetic, seductive, frightening, and charming all at one. It's also a show that spans about 20 years which is rare as well. It's such a great role that everyone who plays it has been able to put their own unique stamp on it and you can't do that with many roles. The score is filled with hit after hit and the book is smart, funny, deep, disturbing, and profoundly moving.

I'm not sure why it's proven so difficult to bring to the screen. Maybe the inherent theatricality of it all? It still seems to me like a screenwriter and director with a great vision could pull it off one of these days.

On film, The Sound of Music is perfection. It's one of the few movie musicals to improve upon the original material.

Eliza Doolittle is probably the most difficult role in musicals. She must belt, and sing sweet soprano. She must do 2 accents. She must do comedy very well, as well as serious drama. And on Broadway, she must do all of these 8 times a week.

Maria Callas went backstage to congratulate Julie Andrews, and commenting on her voice, she said "I can't believe you can sing those songs and do all that talking, too!" Yeah, killer role.

I’m surprised The Wizard of Oz isn’t treated the same, it seems to receive lower prestige because it was made for kids too, idk.

This thread has given me all kinds of inspiration while I’m quarantining at home on what to watch next!

Eliza is a killer of a role. It's like giving a full concert and then performing a 2 hour long play for 8 shows a week. It's no wonder Laura Benanti arranged to only do so many shows a week when she took over in the last revival. Smart girl.

I wonder why some people don't think of The Wizard of Oz as a musical?

[quote]? Do you see the filmed versions Sondheim's musicals on Disney+?

Yes.

[quote] But when the question is "greatest musical of all time," someone was bound to speak up and say great, it ain't.

That measured response would be fine; but you know as well as I do that that's not how posters who don't like it are responding to praise for it.

r110's response cannot be accurately characterized as simply "great, it ain't." I would characterize it more as this:

I think Hamilton is great. Honestly, I don't know how to compare Hamilton with, say, West Side Story.

Sondheim's works were all inteligent. But IMO, his genius work was Sunday in the Park with George. And it won the Pulitzer. The structure of the musical score and the reflections on art, it was quite an intellectual exercise. Sonheim is a genius...unlike Neil Simon who was lauded as one.

It's hard for me to pick a favorite Sondheim, but I think his most satisfying work is Sweeney Todd. It's a beautiful, masterful work of art. Funny, touching, creepy, and totally memorable. The movie has some moments.