Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein's Carousel

It is one of the few classic musicals that I can get into. The music is wonderful but I just find it boring. Oklahoma and South Pacific are masterpieces.

I saw it in 1994 at the Vivian Beaumont / Lincoln Center theatre on Broadway with Audra McDonald. It was simply in a word: RAPTURE. One of the most spectacular stagings of any musical in Broadway history - beautifully sung....

* can not get into

It made me emotional, but someone please explain the whole "it is OK when he hits you" thing....

Because there are people who still stick with abusers today and love them. Not everyone lives according to woke rules. And when Billy strikes his daughter because he is frustrated and can't show how much he cares for her he is immediately humiliated.

The problem now isn't that Billy is unlikable. He has ALWAYS been unlikable, even when you go back to the original source material ("Liliom"); the genius of the show is that it still gets you to care about him and feel sorry for him.

The big problems with the show now are the heavy-handed irritated Maine accents (written even into the lyrics!), and (particularly) the idea that both Julie and Louise don't mind being beaten.

Glad it's not me.

It says a lot about what we gain and lose buying into the class caste system. Dangerous men like Jeeter are controlled and cordoned off. Billy is punished for his every fuck up, except for hitting Julie, which Just leads to social judgment and derision.

Enoch turns Carrie into a breeding machine, draws ridiculous boundaries on her behavior, and robs her of every bit of joy. Enoch is a pillar of the community.

The show looks at Billy hitting Julie as something bad, but the kind of impulsive fuck up most of carry around for the rest of the life. In 1945, hitting a woman was shameful. Now, it’s unpardonable, at least when discussed in public. Unlike Enoch and Carrie. Billy and Julie genuinely love each other. It’s rare when a production can balance these conflicts.

[quote]Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein's Carousel

As apposed to Rodgers and Marjorie Hammerstein's Carousel?

i LOVE the Carousel Waltz

"You'll Never Walk Alone" - whether it's Nettie in the show, Liverpool fans, or Elvis - is one of the greats.

[quote] Unlike Enoch and Carrie. Billy and Julie genuinely love each other.

Are you sure Enoch and Carrie don't love each other in their own way? "When the Children Are Asleep" is a very sweet love song. Remember, in the 19th century, knocking women up all the time usually meant you had a very active sex life--birth control was not easy to come by, or very reliable, especially in a place like a Maine canning town.

The music is glorious. The book (story) not so much.

Two words; Gordon MacRae

In Liliom Billy gets what he deserves.

Liliom is very, very dark. Carousel gives him the redemption he doesn't deserve or get in Liliom.

It's not fair to look at the book through 21st century eyes. A friend's mother told me her husband used to regularly hit her and when she got fed up and went to the police (mid 1960s) they said things like 'Are you sure you didn't do something to upset him?' and 'Do you really want to file a complaint and put your children's father in jail?' She relented and never filed a complaint.

In the 1950s, striking your spouse was used to comedic effect. Ralph Kramden threatened to hit Alice and Ricky once put Lucy over his knee and spanked her. There's even that cringe-worthy episode where Lucy gets a black eye after getting hit with a book and nonchalantly says to the Mertzes 'Ricky hit me'. Today, Ethel would've been on the phone to the police and taken Lucy down to her apartment in a heartbeat, but back then domestic abuse was seen as hilarious. In fact, the episode ends with all four characters getting a black eye, Fred having gotten his when Ethel hit him with a box of flowers.

What most of you are missing is the Starkeeper/Dr. Seldon's speech at the end. This is what really makes Carousel different from Liliom. It really is the most important speech in the show. The message that it doesn't mater what your parents did or didn't do (good or bad), there comes a time when you have to stand on your own two feet is the message of the musical.

I'm sympathetic, I really am, but nobody defends minstrel shows and the like in this way. "It was a different time back then, you could string them up and people brought their kids and made postcards."

If Rodgers and Hammerstein changed the ending of Liliom, I don't see why it shouldn't be changed again today, to make bit more suitable for a 2020 audience; without losing the meaning of the whole story. I can think of several scenarios that could bring redemption to Billy without slapping his daughter around.

My mind was blown when I learned "You'll Never Walk Alone" was originally from a Rodgers & Hammerstein musical.

*it

[quote]Ralph Kramden threatened to hit Alice

Yeah and she stood there with her arms crossed, looking bored. She wasn't feeling threatened at all, because she wasn't, she knew her husband, he was a big blowhard. It was more realistic about relationships than a lot of shows.

Playing Billy is a tough high-wire act. I'm the most recent revival, Leslie Odom Jr. failed in that regard by making Billy such an asshole that you couldn't wait for him to die. He was sexy to be sure but with such barely concealed hostility it negated his attraction.

This revival also reminded me what a thankless role Julie Jordan is.

That Lincoln Center revival R2 mentioned had a glorious opening and a better Billy in Michael Hayden who did manage to engage your sympathy. Don't recall who played Julie but she was unimpressive. McDonald became a star with her Carrie.

I have an early 30s film version of LILIOM in my Netflix DVD queue mostly out of curiosity. Anyone ever seen it?

R19's response is a perfect example of what is wrong with this country. Minstrel Shows and lynchings were two different activities. One had nothing to do with the other. And, r19, Minstrel Shows were originally black entertainment making fun of white people. The two forms of Minstrel Shows existed well into the 1930s.

Yeah, R26, and the Civil War wasn't about slaveryz blah blah blah.

And r24, you might want to check your Playbill or your prescription. Joshua Henry is not Leslie Odom, Jr.

The film of “Liliom” (1934) is well worth seeing. Directed by Fritz Lang, it starred Charles Boyer, and has a music score by Franz Waxman. It’s far more serious and fantastical than the musical, and lacks the soul contributed by the musical version. But it’s certainly interesting. Though not a success at the time, it remained Lang’s favorite of all his films.

R & H mostly timeless...I still love almost all of the song from most of their musicals

Their masterpiece.

We are even less able to deal with violence in 2020 than audiences were in 1945. We blame individuals rather than seeing how their violence is an expression of deep cultural undercurrents. That’s why, rather than looking at the story critically, current audiences may simply judge Billy (and Carousel) as evil. That judgment makes the audience feel safe and separate from violence.

In 2020, one in four women experience violence from their partner, one in seven are injured, and one in ten are raped. We pretend we have moved past this when we enter a Broadway house.

It's very powerful

"If I Loved You" and " Make Believe" from "Showboat" are variations on the same theme.

R28, thanks. My bad.

Carousel's problem are many. Billy's character is so repulsive. He is everything you should say away from in life. And I never feel sorry for him. Or Julie. They worked in these mills to help their families. Julie is foolish, ignorant in the ways of love, and impulsive. Their story is too ugly to really watch. But the music is the best Richard Rodgers ever wrote for any musical and Oscar wrote three masterpieces of song- " If I Loved You" ( which I agree is another version of " Make Believe"), " When The Children Are Asleep" and "You'll Never Walk Alone". There are no strong female leads in Rodgers and Hammerstein's shows except " The King and I".

And You can't forget this song:

David Canary played Billy Bigelow in the late 70s.

"What's the Use of Wond'rin" is brilliant at capturing helpless, besotted, pathetic, you-know-it's-doomed-but-you're-powerless-to-stop-yourself lust and love.

It's an interesting score in that it has both some of the best songs R+H ever wrote ("You'll Never Walk Alone," "If I Loved You," "Soliloquy," The Carousel Waltz, "When the Children Are Asleep," "What's the Use of Wond'rin?") as well as some of the worst songs they ever wrote ("Stonecutters Cut It on Stone," "You're a Queer One, Julie Jordan," "This was a Real Nice Clambake"). I can't think of another score they did that's so wildly uneven.

The music is the most glorious Hammerstein ever wrote, "The Carousel Waltz" is a genuine orchestral masterpiece, I always wondered why every symphony in the world doesn't make it part of their standard repertoire. And "If I Loved You", "Soliloquy", and "You'll Never Walk Alone" are extraordinary, just perfect songs.

But yeah, the story is a problem, as others have said before me. My other problem with the show is that the only film version is weak, I mean it sounds great and blazes with technicolor, but it's totally lacking in the depth and passion the story needs to work. If Billy and Julie aren't madly, passionately, overwhelmingly in love AND lust, then it becomes the story of a fool and an asshole. And Neither Gordon McRae nor Shirley Jones every looked madly in love or lust in their lives.

I saw John Raitt in LA in a west coast revival in the 1960s, and Audra at Lincoln Center in 1994 (?). It is a tough book that has not aged very well. But the music is glorious, and it is always interesting to see what aging (or aged) diva is tapped for Nellie.

It's a weird show also in that Hammerstein was so fascinated by reproducing dialect in his songs in the 1940s (he also did it in "Okalahoma!" and "Carmen Jones"), and this was the worst of his experiments. Some of the lines that try to reproduce a Maine dialect, like these ones:

The vittles we et

Were good, you bet!

The company was the same...

just make me cringe. He did a much better job with it in "Carmen Jones" (in songs like "You Talk Just Like My Ma"), but he had pretty much given up on doing it for an entire show starting with "Allegro"--although he annoyingly backslid into doing it again in "The King & I" with some of the Thai characters' songs.

I sing “June is Busting Out All Over” every June.

[quote] I sing “June is Busting Out All Over” every June.

Apparently I don't, or I would know the lyrics better.

The ‘94 revival made Nettie out to be a sexoot—Audra sang the line “Mr. Snow, here I am” prone on the stage with her booty shaking.

CARRIE, not Nettie.

John Raitt; another tall cool drink of water with a voice that could knock your socks off.

Can anyone do justice to "If I Loved You" today?

Michael Crawford isn't it; doesn't do a thing for me......

I'm sure some opera singers could do it well.

Maybe it's my fault, but I just can't get into that kind of singing, it lacks subtlety.

I cried when I saw this at 12 so I think modern audiences could appreciate this. I never watched it again because it’s just too depressing

R40, Richard Rodgers is the composer of the music.

R26, the connection between lynching and entertainment based on crude racial stereotypes is that both reflected the dehumanization of blacks which was the basis of institutionalized racism. I don't really think that R&H were making some kind of vicious patriarchal statement, but it is gruesomely and fatally dated. A shame, because the music is stellar and it makes me cry.

The real problem with Carousel is the movie. Shirley Jones had/has a pretty voice, but her acting has the depth of water spilled on a kitchen counter. It's ironic that today Rodgers and Hammerstein are considered as purely "family fare" and very old hat -But when you look at the issues they tackled in their shows (domestic violence, crime, racism, immigration, slavery, oppression, lust, murder, cultural assimilation...) you'd think twice about taking the kiddies. Maybe they don't always take those issues to the heights or depths that Sondheim would today, but they put them out there -and at a time when no one else was doing it.

Carousel has a beautiful score (excepting the hideous "This Was A Real Nice Clam Bake") and it continues to challenge audiences about their expectations for love and relationships, and redemption. It's a show that demands heavy acting from its leads, along with serious vocal chops.

[quote]But when you look at the issues they tackled in their shows (domestic violence, crime, racism, immigration, slavery, oppression, lust, murder, cultural assimilation...)

Don't forget us!

Are Nazis not included in "crime, racism, slavery, oppression, and murder"??

I guess so, but they're their own special breed.

I know I'll be drowned out by howls of "Oldster!", "Racist!", but I thought Audra's casting in the '94 Lincoln Center production was dumb, and took me out of the action, pretending turn-of-the-century Maine was enjoying a racially integrated society when of course it was not.

Colorblind casting is often distracting by changing the author's intentions and forcing the audience to pretend they don't notice the anachronisms.

[quote]I know I'll be drowned out by howls of "Oldster!", "Racist!", but I thought Audra's casting in the '94 Lincoln Center production was dumb, and took me out of the action, pretending turn-of-the-century Maine was enjoying a racially integrated society when of course it was not.

I was definitely concerned.

I've heard the big reason Shirley Jones got those two leading roles in the Rodgers & Hammerstein musicals was that she put out for Richard Rodgers, who was a big pussyhound always trying to find some happiness away from his awesomely bitchy wife.

She had a lovely voice and was exceptionally pretty, but she was never an actress (even though she has an Oscar).

[quote] Carousel has a beautiful score (excepting the hideous "This Was A Real Nice Clam Bake")

You mean you actually LIKE "Stonecutters Cut It on Stone" and "You're a Queer One, Julie Jordan"???

The film's theatrical release poster always cracks me up. It looks like Julie and Billy are practicing aerial kung fu for "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon."

R61, I can't say I love those two numbers, but they fit the slots they are in, and "Julie Jordan" is really just an extended recitative section. "Clambake" has always given me the willies (not the good ones). More for Hammerstein's lyrics than for Rodgers' tune. As someone who is both a vegetarian and deadly allergic to shellfish, that gruesome number makes me sick.

R60, I've heard those rumors about Shirley Jones, too. They certainly seem more likely than her being chosen for her acting ability!

R & H did some innovative stuff in their musicals, and one of them was to use some songs to move the action and the emotional aspects of the story along. Before them, most musicals had words (the plot, the action of the play), and then everything ground to a halt for the songs, which, in theory, meditated on the emotions that were being generated in that part of the plot. That was a carryover from opera, which did something similar with Recitative and Aria. However, in a song like Soliloquy, one of the great songs of musical theater, Billy goes from meditating on Julie's pregnancy, and his opportunity to raise a son in his own image, to the stunned realization that her child might be a girl, and that to raise a girl properly he has to get money. That's crucial to the next part of the plot. If a male singer can't sing that song and get everyone in the audience weeping and on his or her feet, he doesn't know how to sing or act because everything he needs is written right into that song.

Gordon who?

Carousel is so, so beautiful, and it may be unfixable, which is tragic.

The score is nearly operatic in scope. I spent five years in New England some decades ago, and the overture completely nails the slightly giddy, off-kilter ecstasy generated by the approach of spring in an area with long, cold winters.

It is based on a 1909 play, "Liliion" by Hungarian playwright Ferenc Molnár.

The music is simply exquisite - not just the more famous, big melodic pieces but the smaller ones like "When I Marry Mr Snow".

It was only O&H's second collaboration, I think, right after "Oklahoma".

R65 - Both Raitt and MacRae brought rich if different voices to the role of Billy. I have both recordings and like them both. I think Raitt's voice was more powerful, but MacRae's more luscious in tone. I enjoy both recordings to this day.

Shirley Jones talks about the movie and Frank Sinatra.

Thanks to everyone posting in my thread. I'm learning a lot from DL who know of such things.

R20 your comparison doesn't make sense. R&H changed Liliom by writing a NEW SHOW. A musical, too boot. We can't just change shows as they were written. We can't change Carousel without the rights and that's not going to happen.

Plays get new interpretations all the time R70.

If the rights holders agree.

They changed Flower Drum Song past all recognition almost.

[quote]Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein's Carousel

As opposed to Rodgers and Archie Hammerstein's Carousel?

No, I don't see how the problems with this show can be fixed, the central characters are not very likeable and make terrible choices, and that's built into the story. Even a rewrite can't do anything but take the edge off the problems, make them less objectionable and it becomes boring rather than irritating.

No, I love this show, but like every Musical Queen out there with any sense, it's a rather regretful love. This show is the no good fuckbuddy who you swear you'll never see again, but do occasionally because he's so great in bed.

r74, see r9

My problem with "This was a Real Nice Clambake" is only with the stupid lyrics. The song itself is lovely, especially when the music swells at "Our hearts are warm, our bellies are full..."

However, if you ever want to know how to prepare clams over a fire on the beach, they certainly are informative!

I wish someone would take another crack at "Flower Drum song." The original is hopelessly dated, but the re-do was hopelessly woke (and they gave practically every good song over to Lea Salonga to boot). It has some genuinely beautiful songs in it, despite the clinkers like "Chop Suey."

The best thing to do with CAROUSEL is to excise the four or five really great songs from it and do them in concerts and recitals. End of story. It's a really shitty musical. LILIOM could still play today. CAROUSEL does not. The adaptation is not good. It was not a good choice for musicalizing.

To their credit, R&H looked for serious material to adapt into serious musical plays. But then they sand all the rough edges off the dark stories to make them more commercial. And that bad choice is on them. Instead of taking their work to the original work and musicalizing that original work, they fucked with the integrity of the work. The King and I, South Pacific, Carousel, and even The Sound of Music are all guilty of this. Carousel is the first to fall. The others are still skating by.

R76 Thanks. lol I'm always late to the party.

I saw the show on stage a few years ago, not a big production, regional theater. It was so moving most of the audience was crying. I don't know what "unfixable problems" it has. Shows don't have to depict perfect people with perfect relationships. I wonder if all the fantasy films and animated features have created a generation who has to see everything in archetypes. Real people are imperfect, you can love imperfect people and they can be loving people despite major faults.

The way people have to see art in such black and white terms, now, and the way it always has to be pedantic and teach something about political correctness, is killing the arts, and reminds me of the rule bound art of the USSR.

R80 While you have a point, you're looking at it from the pov of now. They were usually making straight plays, novels, or nonfiction books into *musicals*. Musicals of an earlier era - and they were groundbreaking for Broadway at the time. Extremely. I mean talk to people who saw South Pacific when it opened. Even before R&H, Hammerstein was breaking ground with Show Boat. There isn't that much room for a book in one of these shows, a lot has to be simplified. Anyhow what seems tame now did not seem tame 70 years ago. Also there are frequent revivals of Carousel whatever you think of it.

Of course choices are made, R82. But read Michener to find out about DeBecque's half dozen children from a half dozen women of different ethnicities. When you do, you understand why Nellie was struggling with Emile's family and past. Ngana and Jerome don't pack that punch and never could have. The oldest of Michener's DeBecque children is nearly Nellie's age. He gave Nellie a lot to overcome. Hammerstein gave her the two most adorable children in the history of the world and an acting problem that cannot be solved.

The other shows I listed above have similar problems. They made a lot of money, for sure. But these were never great artistic choices. They were business choices. Rather than plumb the depths of the original work, they compromised them greatly. They might have been wiser to choose stories that did not have to be made more palatable. That simplistic narrative R&H chose causes CAROUSEL a lot of problems now.

Talk to people who saw South Pacific when it opened on Broadway? Where would I find one? That was 71 years ago. There are undoubtedly a few who were around then, but they were children or very young adults in 1949. Not the most reliable reporters on any topic.

Actually, when I saw the Broadway revival of South Pacific I was seated next to a woman who had seen the original! She was there with her daughter and daughter-in-law as I recall. Someone else was supposed to be with them, but couldn't go at the last minute, so they gave the ticket back to the box office -and that's how I got it. She smiled and applauded with everyone else, and as the intermission began her daughter asked her how this compared to the original. She got a big grin on her face and said, "This Lt. Cable sure spends a lot of time in the gym!" Then she winked at me.

The only problem is today's Gen Z (and some Millennials) audience demands that they ONLY be exposed to characters they approve of!

They'd happily slop up RENT and the very woke WICKED all night long and swoon for more. I hate them all.

Twenty-five years after he staged Carousel’s finale, Hytner told me he regrets not deleting the dialogue between Julie and Louise. “Those words should not have been said on the stage, because they are a lie,” he said, with passion. I suggested that since Billy is long dead when Julie speaks those words to her daughter, they cannot be construed as enabling further abuse, but the director would not have it. “It is an appalling truth that people feel that way, but … to put those words in the show’s climactic moment is a huge blot on that text. It’s outrageous and unforgivable. It should be cut.”

Perhaps Hytner had forgotten, but when I rewatched a video of his production at the New York Public Library at Lincoln Center, I saw that Billy, who is looking on as Julie says those words to Louise, shakes his head “no.” That directorial choice offers the audience not only Hytner’s own comment on the text, but an important amplification of Hammerstein’s attempt to show Billy’s awakening comprehension. And it gave the 1994 audience permission to be swept up in that gorgeous ending, rather than feel they were acquiescing to a justification for violence.

I love the fact that people think #MeToo creates a different world. The real truth is that a great many women still feel as Julie does, and think it's a truth. It's only some foolish bourgeoisie pundits and loud mouths that think it's different. #MeToo is not like women wanting the vote. It's about class structure. Julie's class of people believe what she believes.#MeToo is not about the intimacies but professionalism.

I'm not getting this idea that somehow our current entertainment world will not support misguided, fucked-up individuals who do the wrong thing repeatedly. People sit down to watch Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, Game of Thrones, etc, but it's assumed they will clutch their pearls at an abusive relationship? Or is it just assumed that Broadway audiences need to be spoonfed pleasantries and happy endings? I recently saw a revival of Sweeney Todd in NYC and I didn't see anyone fainting at "Epiphany."

I love the artwork of those albums in the 50s and 60s. I remember my mother had the soundtrack the movie “Gigi” and the cover was just gorgeous.

Definitive version of Soliloquy by Steven Pasquale At The Lyric Opera in Chicago.

This production moved the era up to the Depression and aged the characters so that Julie wasn't a ninny but a bit world weary. Sex was the defining feature in their relationship.

As someone pointed out before, by doing the movie in flashback, it gives away the ending in the first five minutes.

Part of the subtext of Carousel, which would not have needed to be spelled out to audiences in the 1940s, was that Julie's mill work was a scam. Mills got young girls as apprentices. The promise was that they would learn a trade and be able to support a family. The reality was that when they were kicked out at 18, there was no work because *all* of the mills had "apprentice" programs. This was true of other occupations, such as nursing. When you left nursing school in the late 1800s, you better be able to find a private position because hospitals were not hiring. Julie is desperate to find a way out. Her choice is to either travel up and down New England looking for work, or returning home, assuming that her family would take her in .

[quote]In 2020, one in four women experience violence from their partner, one in seven are injured, and one in ten are raped. We pretend we have moved past this when we enter a Broadway house.

We pretend a lot of things when we enter a Broadway house because, you know, it's not real, it's just actors pretending so that a story can be told.

I absolutely love Carousel. When I was very young I saw the London/Broadway revival of the early 90s. I don't think I have yet seen anything so spectacular and beautiful on stage (Patrick Wilson was Billy). Being so young, the "problems" with the script never stood out to me. Despite now understanding people's issues with it, I must admit I have a hard time condemning the ending, not only due to my adoration of the show, but also because, in some ways, it actually makes sense. I think there's a subset of people who "get" it. My best friend was in a physically abusive relationship for years with a guy who was basically a modern Billy. No matter what that jackass did to her, she just kept on adoring him and staying by his side (to be fair, she was no Julie Jordan and something of a trainwreck). As much as it pains people to acknowledge it, the fact is, Carousel's "problem" is an accurate depiction of what occurs in relationships, and I don't think it should be smeared because it does that. I will add that, after reading R86, those comments really temper my views. Ending the show with such a dreary message really is awkward and I do see the problems with that. But the fact is, both men and women get in crappy relationships, and even marriages with partners that just suck. And many times, these people don't get out of these relationships.

R94 Very well put. The guy also didn't split when his wife got pregnant and they didn't have any money. He's supposed to have a kind of tattered nobility. But anyway it's really about imperfect people and would she have been happier married to Mr. Snow? The show does have a song about how we love who we love and we probably can't help it. Poor working class people weren't going to therapy in the 1800s.

By the way I was watching the movie with my dad once and he pointed out the sun doesn't set over the ocean, in Maine (which is how the movie ends. Some of it was shot on the coast of California as well). Wonder who else ever noticed that?

R88, I think what you wrote is exactly why I take issue with people's reaction to Carousel. Domestic violence is prevalent in a lot of stories. I don't hear anyone griping about the rape in the forever-lauded Streetcar, and in that Stanley doesn't even endure ANY repercussions because of it. At least Billy dies because of his jackassery and gets some form of comeuppance. And while I admit that Julie's acceptance and further confirmation with her daughter at the end is certainly awkward, it's not exactly unfathomable or unthinkable.

R92, that's really interesting. Do you have any further confirmation of that fact? Not doubting what you say, just curious as to whether there's more info on that topic, as addressing that in future productions really could change the problematic narrative. If Julie did indeed really have no other option, staying with Billy the Beater makes a lot more sense.

I always think it's weird how people are so worried about politically incorrect but rather mild things in old movies and shows, but have no problem with extreme violence in today's movies, violent and misogynistic rap music, death metal, whatever. I mean it's strange.

Jack Nicholson's "Soliloquy".

"But read Michener to find out about DeBecque's half dozen children from a half dozen women of different ethnicities. When you do, you understand why Nellie was struggling with Emile's family and past."

R83, I think that particular change might have been a valid artistic choice. If Nellie had been forced to confront the idea of a dozen varied-race stepchildren, the issue would have been that her possible future husband was a slut, and had treated his past babymommas with less than perfect respect, and who knew how many future varicolored stepchildren he'd produce. If she's just presented with two dark children who would become part of her own family if she pursued things with Emile... then the issue would be having to confront American-style racism.

!!!

That must have been a HUGE deal, to the audiences of 1949, who lived in a world where segregation was legal and interracial marriage wasn't, and the idea of accepting people of different races into your own family was shocking, absolutely shocking. That shock value is gone now, in a world where interracial marriage is common and so are blended families. "South Pacific" has lost a lot of emotional impact over time, because of positive societal changes, and as with "Carousel" all that's really left to enjoy is the music.

I'm watching the "Live from Lincoln Center" production of Carousel right now, it's free on YouTube. The staging is bare, the music is superb, the story as sad as ever.

I'm comparing it to the film version, which I've always thought of as cheesy and passionless (but have seen several times anyway), but I think the film does a few things right. One was to introduce the fantastic elements right at the beginning, having them appear at the end of act 2 seems a bit jarring, not when the show has been so solidly grounded in the everyday up until then. The other was to shoot "Soliloquy" on a piece of real New England coast, with nothing there but the bare rocks and glittering sea, and one guy singing this stunning song. It's the one scene in the film that actually seems to be set in the New England where real poor fishermen live, and not some tarted-up Hollywood version thereof.

Despite our noble aspirations, the show will survive, maybe not for the reasons we like to admit. Even if the score were not some of the most inspired music ever written. People are going to fall in love with the wrong people far into the foreseeable future. These imperfect relationships may embarrass us, but they also awaken something primal. We will try to figure out why, and fail. That’s why there are shows like Carousel.

R100, I never watched it before, but the Lincoln Center concert is great (I’m watching it now on Prime). Jessie Mueller, Kelli O’Hara, and Audra bring credit to their generation. If only Broadway tenors hadn’t taken all the great baritone roles, maybe we sound have a better Billy than Nathan Gunn. But Mueller and O’Hara capture everything human about this piece.

[quote]I'm watching the "Live from Lincoln Center" production of Carousel right now

I watched that recently and I thought it was funny that nobody looked particularly poor. No dirty torn clothes, the hair perfectly done. It looked a bit strange. Also I'm not sure an operatic score lends itself realistically to what the story of the play is about. I'm sure the wonderful songs and melodies can be interpreted without forcing them into a overdone and overemphasized opera style.

Just my opinion.

"Also I'm not sure an operatic score lends itself realistically to what the story of the play is about."

IMHO it's like "West Side Story", the semi-operatic musical style doesn't rationally fit characters who are considered to be on the low end of society, but it works anyway. The soaring music makes it seem like these people, the sort of people the average Datalounger might dismiss as "trash", seem like they have huge souls and monumental passions, and the music helps us take their emotional lives very seriously.

Again, it's a valid artistic choice.

Good point R104, but mixing an operatic score with poor working class folks has been done in an artistically satisfying way before. Remember the movie Amadeus. I just don't think it worked well in that Live from Lincoln Center stage production of Carousel.

R100, the beach in "Soliloquy" in the Carousel movie was Fox Beach, in Malibu, CA. That beach is in nearly every movie featuring a beach. The same exact beach can be seen in From Here to Eternity, underneath Deborah Kerr underneath Burt Lancaster.

I'll say this about "recent" productions I've caught on YouTube, theater darling Jesse Mueller makes more sense as Carrie than Julie.

That beach scene in From Here to Eternity was filmed in Hawaii at Halona Beach Cove, R106.

Considering that when a production of Carousel or South Pacific leaves people tremendously moved or even in tears the book are pretty damn well near close to perfect. I'm not understanding you looney tunes who say they have major problems.

[quote] I'm not understanding you looney tunes who say they have major problems.

Noted.

R73 What do you mean? Are you saying the movie version of Flower Drum Song was changed?

[quote] Considering that when a production of Carousel or South Pacific leaves people tremendously moved or even in tears the book are pretty damn well near close to perfect.

So do episodes of "This is Us." Big deal.

R99, did it ever cross your mind that DeBecque's children were cut because of the expense of having children on stage? The children are necessary in The Sound of Music. There aren't in South Pacific. Two gets the point across without the expense.

R69 I'm no fan of Shirley Jones nor Frank Sinatra but she discreetly omits Frank's problem.

He was a good choice to play a moronic abuser. But movies are a visual medium and she had a statuesque physique while he looks like a skinny mouse.

You'll notice that the tv clip does NOT show them standing side by side.

"[R99], did it ever cross your mind that DeBecque's children were cut because of the expense of having children on stage? "

I thought that Rogers and Hammerstein had specifically set out to Make A Statement about racism in "South Pacific"! Do correct me if I'm wrong about that, but yeah, making Emile a widower instead of a slut totally changes Nellie's conflicts over the relationship. Take away all the other women who've borne him children, and her only issue is race.

But yeah, once they made Emile a respectable widower, the decision to give him two children by one woman in stead of six was undoubtedly based on cost.

R115, It is a business. And Rogers and Hammerstein were businessmen first.

If the geography of the coast seems to change a little for Billy’s dramatic Soliloquy number and the ballet sequence, that’s because these scenes were filmed at Paradise Cove, 28128 Pacific Coast Highway, Malibu. (Much of the ballet is shot inside a soundstage.)

Paradise Cove, once a humble fishermen’s hangout, has become an upscale beachfront community with its famous Pier and Bob Morris’ Paradise Cove Beach Café. The cove has been a screen regular, appearing in Indecent Proposal, American Pie II and Beach Blanket Bingo.

"Slut!" Just look at you pots calling DeBecque's kettle beige.

Michener gave Nellie a man who has lived by his own rules, which is in itself a challenge for her. Michener gave her an oldest daughter who was just a few years younger than Nellie, a young woman of a different culture and with different mores than those known to Nellie. Instead of two sweet doll like children who sing insipidly and giggle, Michener gave her a young woman (with breasts!) who rocked a sarong. Several of them, actually, have manifested secondary sex characteristics, IIRC. They are DeBecque's children. He loves them all. But can Nellie? His children are of different races. Beyond their own foreignness to Nellie, their faces attest to their father's miscegenation. In Little Rock, NONE of this is acceptable or respectable. She risks everything she knows if she wants to be with DeBecque. She has a huge journey to take to find a way to be part of this family. That would not be very much different today. The challenge Michener created was huge.

It's just blind stupidity to suggest that the wee small motherless Ngana and Jerome can perform as suitable substitutes for all of that. Of course, they cannot. Anyone would want those children to have a mother. Many, many, many women would see no challenge to loving them. Not even in Little Rock.

That change is one of the ways R&H fundamentally changed Michener. They watered down the story and the characters in order to not scare anyone away from the box office. And now, 71 years later, Nellie's reticence about those children makes her look ridiculous. It's not Michener. And it's not very dramatic, either. Any woman who would reject those two small children (and is that really ever a possibility in SOUTH PACIFIC?) would be a heartless and shallow creature, unworthy of a play being built around her.

As to that silliness about cutting the payroll, that production had plenty of sailors. Josh Logan undoubtedly saw to that. Two or three of them could have be sacrificed to protect the integrity of the story. But, obviously, no one involved ever wanted to do that. You've got to do better than that argument.

R118, You are an idiot if you do not know the difference in economics between having minors on stage and having adults. You could probably have three sailors for the cost of one 8 year-old (who would have to be double cast). Another historical note: the children singing would have been quite novel at the time. Throughout the 20s and into the 30s, children were not allowed to sing in Broadway musicals. This is why young Kim in Showboat is a non-singing role. I am not sure when the ban was lifted, but it would have been a novelty in 1949.

Flower Drum Song was a cultural marker in its day, the first Broadway musical with an all-Asian cast. It has some wonderful songs, particularly, in my opinion, the underrated "Love Look Away", much as "Something Wonderful" is often overlooked in the luscious scoring and better-known songs in "The King and I".

R118, Hammerstein was not dramatizing just the story of Nellie Forbush and Emile DeBecque; he was using parts of other Michener stories and weaving them together. A man with two children is believable; a military post manned by three sailors would not. And the seabees and nurses provided the choral work needed for the score.

R106 - Ah, the beach scene in From Here to Eternity! Slightly OT, but you know Lancaster was on the Dick Cavett Show and Cavett mentioned that he'd had Kerr on and asked her about the famous scene, and Kerr said that it wasn't as erotic as it looked, they kept getting sand in their mouths.

And Lancaster replied in his legendary voice, "Well, it sure tasted like sugar to me."

R73 and R111, the changes were for the disastrous 200 Broadway revisal.

R20, Billy slapped his daughter's hand once. Not quite "slapping around."

R42, should Hammerstein have written the dialogue and lyrics so that the characters in OKLAHOMA!, CAROUSEL, and THE KING AND I would sound like New Yorkers?

R68, different situations allow for different kinds of singing. When John Raitt originated Billy Bigelow, he had to fill a large theatre without amplification. For the film, Gordon MacRae had the benefit of microphones and recording techniques. Also, Raitt was a baritenor (though he thought of himself as a baritone with high notes) and MacRae was a definite baritone. Raitt could let the high notes ring; MacRae used covered tones for his higher notes. Both had wonderful voices.

Speaking of children in Broadway shows, when Miss Saigon was playing on Broadway, Backstage Magazine was constantly running audition ads for the little boy. At points they were desperate and would even audition little girls.

Playing Billy in the 1966 revival, John Raitt had the keys *raised.* He's really just a tenor.

[quote] That must have been a HUGE deal, to the audiences of 1949, who lived in a world where segregation was legal and interracial marriage wasn't, and the idea of accepting people of different races into your own family was shocking, absolutely shocking. That shock value is gone now

You’re welcome.

The point is that when they softened all this source material to make their show more commercial, they opened themselves up to shows that don't age well, as it appears to subsequent generations that they were trivializing the underlying issues. And they very specifically were.

If they had left the darkness in the original works, as intended by their highly qualified authors, then the pieces would have their dramatic integrity. Alternatively, all they had to do was find more commercial stories to adapt, stories already suited to the outcome they desired. But, no, they set out to oppose domestic violence, slavery, racial and sexual mores and Nazism while at the same time making them more palatable to Broadway. They got a lot right, but in adapting these works to make them more palatable to 1950s middle class morality, they undermined their own product.

R121, three sailors? That was a stupid lie, easy to expose, not worthy of you.

R130, there is plenty of darkness in Rodgers & Hammerstein's shows but that is often glossed over in productions. How can a supposition be a lie?

How do you hold a moonbeam in your hand?

^^ very carefully.

There is nothing to "fix" in CAROUSEL. First, the very notion of translating the source material from Hungary to Maine was an inspired choice--audiences can identify with the American milieu and the types that inhabit it. And, yes, that's how New Englanders speak (even today), especially 19th century rural New Englanders.

Nothing demonstrates the abysmal state of education today than the inability to understand metaphor and its resonances. Everything is taken literally and at face value--no thought, abstraction or nuance possible (which of course is the fundamental principle of cancel culture). Can ANYONE seriously think that R&H--of all people--were advocating patriarchy or domestic abuse in the show? Or that the values of the characters always represent the values of the writers? Characters without flaws or flawed objectives would leech the story of conflict, the very heart of drama.

It is absurd to argue that the very innovations and adult subject matter for which R&H were famous also undermined the shows. They knew their audience. They knew how to interpolate their innovations within the conventional/commercial demands of the musical theater. Most important, they were pioneers at establishing a balance between "realism" (psychological or otherwise) and a romantic sensibility that allowed the story to soar on wings of gorgeously crafted song (something missing on Broadway today). Without these smart, intuitive approaches, the shows may not have been successful and we wouldn't be talking about them today (will anyone be talking about THIS IS US 75 years hence?)

Of course the R&H shows are idealized--they're essentially operettas. A certain lyricism has to permeate the entire production so the transition from speech to song can be achieved seamlessly and romance can bloom (unlike the recent Oklahoma revival, about which the less said, the better).

Let's also remember that R&H wrote South Pacific in the shadow of the Holocaust and a world conflagration. Their theme of racism was a global one.

"The only problem is today's Gen Z (and some Millennials) audience demands that they ONLY be exposed to characters they approve of!" Which speaks volumes about the popularity of the narcissistic, morally relativistic characters in DEH.

As far as changing the story to suit present-day mores, there's a little thing called copyright that would prevent that. It would also be an insult to the men who, in fashioning a drama representing THEIR concerns and THEIR point of view, went through the agony of getting it on the page. You have something you want to hear said? Write it yourself.

Very astute observation about the final speech in CAROUSEL, r18. Which is why the show is called CAROUSEL, a circular metaphor, one that can apply to the spiritual "reincarnation" of Billy and also suggest the breaking of a cycle of behavior.

^ Very erudite.

I'll have to read it again when I'm rested.

[quote]That must have been a HUGE deal, to the audiences of 1949, who lived in a world where segregation was legal and interracial marriage wasn't, and the idea of accepting people of different races into your own family was shocking, absolutely shocking. That shock value is gone now, in a world where interracial marriage is common and so are blended families. "South Pacific" has lost a lot of emotional impact over time, because of positive societal changes, and as with "Carousel" all that's really left to enjoy is the music

The song "It's Got To Be Carefully Taught" was very controversial and they were urged to cut it. Also - Nellie was from the South. Lt. Cable was from the Philadelphia Main Line. Areas where there would have been even more than the usual prejudices. The idea of marrying into a different religion was not acceptable to everyone, never mind interracial marriage. But by 1949 it wasn't uncommon to see Japanese war brides in the US. . Also segregation wasn't an accepted practice everywhere.. Schools were integrated in the North and I think California and a lot of other places.

[quote][R73] What do you mean? Are you saying the movie version of Flower Drum Song was changed?

R111 No. The movie was changed a bit, but I was talking about the revival in the early 2000s, it had a new book by David Henry Hwang.

*The original show was based on a novel by C. Y. Lee and it stuck pretty close to the book, which is a good book, I've read it.

'Flower Drum Song' must the smallest of their successful shows.

Undoubtedly it has some lovely songs but this is one show I never liked. Not at all. The narrative was never interesting to me either.

Whereas I loved South Pacific, Oklahoma, even the story of The Flower Drum Song. The Sound of Music was also less appealing to me but I can't say I didn't enjoy it. The King and I is also a less appealing show with, of course, some memorable moments.

[quote]The original show was based on a novel by C. Y. Lee

C.Y. Lee just died in 2018. He was 102 and outlived almost everyone involved with either the stage or movie versions of his work.

John Raitt was before my time. Frank Sinatra would have been vile as Billy and Gordon Macrae was bland. I wonder if Hugh Jackman could handle Billy?

Hugh Jackman played Billy in a concert at Carnegie Hall in 2002. He is too old for the role now.

Hammerstein, working with Rodgers, was such a low-brow hack, and they both aimed for some sort of cornball "big issues watered down and made palatable for the weekend matinee crowds" schtick, while Rodgers' sublime gift was served up to it.

NOPE.

And they both knew better.

So who's the nut who wanted Rodgers and Hammerstein to write a 70s TV mini series and not a Broadway musical?

If you want Roots watch Roots. If you want Sweeney Todd watch Sweeney Todd. The stupidity infecting DL can only be explained by covid eating away these people's brains. They're the kind of people who get upset when Julie in Showboat isn't played by a black woman which of course would turn the entire plot into nonsense.

[quote]They're the kind of people who get upset when Julie in Showboat isn't played by a black woman which of course would turn the entire plot into nonsense.

Says who?

What about Julie on Love Boat?

[quote]What about Julie on Love Boat?

She should have been played by a black woman. Black women were seriously under-represented on that show.

Pearl Bailey was on the show at least once.

As much as I religiously watched it, I don’t recall, did Love Boat do interracial or gay story lines?

When I saw John Raitt in the revival in LA (in 1967? I think it moved from NY to LA that year for some performances), I was entralled by Raitt, particularly his hiked up pants (and he was no spring chicken). I did not know they changed the key for him, but the closing was powerful and redemptive, at least to a teen aged gay boy getting to know Broadway.

Yet they still didn't cast him when ABC did it for TV and cast Robert Goulet instead.

At least he has [italic]The Pajama Game[/italic] movie to his credit. Its Blu-ray absence in 2020 is inexcusable unless it's to restore it.

He was cast because it was a revival and he was iconic in the original production. Not really age appropriate by that time. Still, very memorable and I'm glad I could see him.

And I thought he was handsome and sexy even at that age. (But this is the teenager who came in his pants seeing Charlton Heston's bare butt in the first Planet of the Apes, too!!!!

Did Bonnie play his daughter and get the living crap slapped out of her each night?

[quote]Did Bonnie play his daughter and get the living crap slapped out of her each night?

Heather MacRae used to say that she listened to the "My little girl" portion and think that her father was singing about her. Sheila couldn't be bothered to explain that the ending had the father smacking the little girl really hard.

I can't believe anyone doesn't find "The King and I" R&H's most sublime work.

I saw the last Lincoln Center production twice with both original and major replacement casts. Marin Mazzie, who'd already been told by doctors to have her affairs in order, onstage for almost three hours in the role of her career and her final one. I found it breathtaking. In forty years of seeing Broadway musicals, I think I'd put this production at the very top. It was a thrilling production of a superb show.

I'll "MARY!" myself, lol.

Funny how the movie started with Billy already dead but did nothing to change the attitude towards wife-beating. Has Nora Ephron ever commented on her parents' work here other than having Jack Nicholson sing parts of the Soliluoquy in [italic]Heartburn[/italic]?

Soliloquy

[quote]I can't believe anyone doesn't find "The King and I" R&H's most sublime work.

I saw Faith Prince in the Broadway revival. Her pauses waiting for the laughter that was never going to come extended the show by 10 minutes.

I thought the King and I had been cancelled.

R160 It’s OK as long as you cast real Asians.

R160 I think Rodgers and Hammerstein's King of Siam is quite mild and sane compared to the current King of Thailand.

I've been told the current Thai people consider Mr Leonowens (the boy in the musical) grew up to be an unpleasant trader who sold Thai products overseas (including Thai animals to zoos around the world).

Some things never change.

[quote]I've been told the current Thai people consider Mr Leonowens (the boy in the musical) grew up to be an unpleasant trader who sold Thai products overseas (including Thai animals to zoos around the world).

He got his unpleasantness from his mother. The whole King & I story is a fabrication. She was just one of several teachers and the King never gave her any special attention. As if all he had to do all day was dance with some white British woman!

So, did the British people let Kelli play the lead in London?

[quote]So, did the British people let Kelli play the lead in London?

Unfortunately!

I wonder who American Actor's Equity had to accept for this exchange?

R120, The original cast of Flower Drum Song was definitely not all-Asian, let alone the first! Larry Blyden was one of the leading men, and he performed the role in yellow face. Juanita Hall was an African-American woman, though she played Asian in this show as well as South Pacific. The show was cast with a majority of Pan-Asian actors, but an all-Asian cast was still a long way away.

Anna Leonowens wasn't even white! She was half-Indian.

[quote]Anna Leonowens wasn't even white! She was half-Indian.

Well, if Joe Biden doesn't pick me for his cabinet, I'll look into playing the role.

Meryl Streep and Jack NIcholson in "Heartburn" aren't even Jewish!

It was the red-dot kind, R169, not the feather kind.

Cows, not casinos.

R156 - My parents introduced me to R&H when I was a kid. Perhaps it's not the average kid's favorite, but I practically wore out my VHS copy of The King & I. I'm not sure I can articulate exactly why, but that Lincoln Center revival of K&I left me so cold. I loved Bartlett Sher's South Pacific revival at LCT. Admittedly, it was my first time seeing a professional stage production of K&I, but, to me, it couldn't hold a candle to the film. I was also surprised at how I didn't like the orchestra -- I know that although it was large by Broadway standards -- compared to the cinematic sound of the film, they sounded so dinky. And no one will ever have chemistry like this. I mean, this is practically a sex scene.

This thread made me rewatch the movie on Blu-ray, and they certainly put the "Blu" back in Blu-ray. The color timing was way off but the sharpness was impressive. It should be for a large-format film. There is a very obvious disconnect between the exterior shots and the location shots that CinemaScope 55 makes obvious. But that score, what's left of it, has never sounded more magnificent. For all the changes made to the film from the stage version, the dialogue about "a hit that doesn't hurt" was kept intact. Yet Carrie also said that she would leave Mr. Snow if he treated her that way. They still managed to get away with a lot for 1956 with the shirtless male sailors dancing pretty close together and the word "slut" being in the dialogue.

[italic]Oklahoma![/italic] works better as a film, and largely because they benefitted from having Fred Zinnemann directing it. Except Henry King had already directed a musical before it: [italic]Alexander's Ragtime Band[/italic] in 1937.

^ Henry King had a talent for making mundane films. He left to the actors and the costumiers to add the lustre.

R152, Robert Goulet's own production company produced that TV CAROUSEL as well as the TV productions of BRIGADOON and KISS ME, KATE in which he starred.

Goulet's CAROUSEL is excellent, the Bench Scene in particular.

Like, I get there were carney barkers for sideshows and such, but were there really ones for the carousel? It seems like it’s a well attended ride to begin with and doesn’t exactly need a hard sell. Or was that just a weird hold over from the original play and an earlier time when it was needed?

[quote]It seems like it’s a well attended ride to begin with and doesn’t exactly need a hard sell.

Isn't it implied in the original show that Billy is only working there because he's fucking Mrs. Mullin? He really serves no function at the carousel but Mrs. Mullin has him there to keep an eye on him.

I never quite understood the Mrs. Mullin character because when Billy dies, she comes pushing her way through to see for herself. So she's a local? Was the carousel a permanent fixture in the town? Why is she there several months later? And who told her Billy died? Was she on the clambake? If so, why has she been so quiet about him getting married?

R179, both clambakes and carnivals tended to mark special times of the year. It is by no means odd that the clambake should coincide with the carnival being in town. Obviously, it is the next year.

Now that someone above has mentioned it... I don't love a single one of the Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals unreservedly! "Carousel" is probably my favorite, because the music reaches such glorious heights, but I've gone on and on about the story problems above and will spare you another round. I think all the musicals are like that, there's always something in the book that puts me off, even if I love the music.

But I can't love any of their creations the way I whole-heartedly love "West Side Story", or "Sweeney Todd". Those shows I consider to be perfect from beginning to end, something R&H never managed during their entire collaboration.

R181, I assume you are familiar with the movie of West Side Story because the stage musical has several problems with the book.

R182 Not trying to be a nit picker here, but when a musical goes from stage to screen, does one still refer to the spoken parts and stage direction as “book” or does it then just become screenplay? Also, whatever it is called, have there ever been any Oscar nominations for best adapted screenplay from a musical?

R183, West Side Story, May Fair Lady, and Oliver!

May Fair Lady? I thought it took place in Covent Garden?

Has the bootleg video of the opening of the London revival of Carousel been scrubbed from YT? Maybe I'm not searching for the right terms. If you can find it, it's incredible

R182 Are you saying there were 'several problems' with the book in the stage version which were fixed in the movie?

What?

I'm not R182, but one of the big problems with the stage version is having the Jets sing an upbeat number like "Gee, Officer Krupke" right after Riff is killed.

Julie should’ve hit him back!

R188, a big sigh for your embarrassing ignorance. Riff dies at the end of Act One. Krupke is placed in the second act, after the intermission, I Feel Pretty, and the Somewhere ballet. Your “right after” is almost 45 minutes.

OK, I shouldn't have said "right after," but it was shortly after for the Jets (it's irrelevant what the other characters were doing at the same time), and it's still THE SAME DAY HE WAS KILLED. I would certainly say it occurs within hours after Riff's death in real time.

I wouldn't say 3 years is all that long to wait for an all Asian cast. Ok mostly Asian with one African American. But then Hall was in the original cast as well so Blyden wasn't the only one.

Larry Blyden replaced Larry Storch before the opening of FLOWER DRUM SONG. Later in the run, Jack Soo took over for Larry Blyden so there was one less non-Asian in the cast.

R177 why is that over 5 hours long?

R194, it's 1:46 but the video is repeated twice.

R195 thank you. Although your math is off. Maybe repeated 2x!

Twice is the same as 2x.

Why you can't even count

Oh shit right oops

I don't see the problem with having the Jets sing "Officer Krupke" after Riff's death, except that it interrupts the increasingly dark tone of the action.

The Jets are fucking juvenile delinquents, layabouts, street trash that aspire to be real criminals, and these are NOT people who would make a big show of grief if they lose one of their own. No, they'd react with bravado, they'd make jokes and act as tough as they could, because they come from an environment where showing fear, compassion, love, sadness, or any feeling other than anger brands you as "weak" and makes you a target. Singing that song when normal people would be grieving is true to character.

[quote]it's 1:46 but the video is repeated twice.

1:46? What's been cut? That's nearly an hour less than the running time should be.

R200 Arthur Laurents but nobody else in the entire world.

Larry Storch!

I cannot imagine him in Flower Drum Song, and also hard to imagine he's still alive at ninety-seven...and a half, but he is!

I saw Angela Lansbury in The King And I. She was only in it a few weeks, while Yul Brynner and Constance Towers were on vacation, in the late-70's revival. She was great. I had already seen her in Gypsy, though, where she was brilliant. Saw both shows when I was a teenager.

"The Carousel Waltz" is one of my favorite orchestral pieces. And I think "If I loved You" is one of the best songs ever written by Rodgers and Hammerstein." But, for me, the actual show is a slog, especially with clunkers like "A Real Nice Clambake."

Best score they ever wrote.

Horrible book.

My ex-husband refused to have R and H in our house.

Too much schmaltz he said.

Formulaic, he said. He pointed out that 'I have Confidence' in SoM is the same as 'I whistle a Happy Tune'. And he pointed out 3 others that were made exactly to the same formula.

He said look at their musicals which failed ('Cinderella' etc) and you'll see the formulas even more, he said.

R207 You sound like a real simp.

I Have Confidence is not even R and H. It's part Rodgers and a lot of Saul Chaplin.

And Cinderella was not a failed Broadway show but a very successful TV special. Twice.

We never hear about the failed musicals

Allegro (1947)

Me and Juliet (1953)

Pipe Dream (1955)

State Fair (1996)

Cinderella (2013)

State Fair and Cinderella really don't belong in your list, R210. As was already pointed out, Cinderella was written for television, and was enormously successful in its first two incarnations. The stage script is based on the first (Julie Andrews) production, and the structure is awkward for the stage, as it assumed spaced for commercials and no need for set changes. The most recent version is overblown, and loses the charm of the original. State fair was a film, and so successful it got remade also. Again, the stage version couldn't compete.

Allegro is by far the most interesting of the R&H flops. The original cast album is nice to have, but the more recent complete studio recording shows what Hammerstein was trying to do with the show -and it's impressive. Pipe Dream was just too watered down from the source material -And it was a bizarre source to begin with.

[italic]Pipe Dream[/italic] was way too far ahead of its time to do the subject matter justice.

I guess 'Pipe Dream' which is about a prostitute is similar to 'Carousel' about a wife-basher.

Hammerstein could not bring himself to deal with the lead character being a prostitute directly. He essentially tried to have it both ways, and that is where his attempt to make complex ideas and social causes understandable and accessible to the common man failed him.

Thank you, R211. That sounds really erudite I must see if any of those unloved shows are on Youtube.

That’s a fucking weird movie

I thought the guy who played Jigger in the movie was hot but never got why he wore that scarf around his neck

^ that man is pretending to be a manual labourer. He needs to wipe the sweat from his brow after a full day of labour..

[quote]State Fair and Cinderella really don't belong in your list, [R210]. As was already pointed out, Cinderella was written for television, and was enormously successful in its first two incarnations. The stage script is based on the first (Julie Andrews) production, and the structure is awkward for the stage, as it assumed spaced for commercials and no need for set changes. The most recent version is overblown, and loses the charm of the original. State fair was a film, and so successful it got remade also. Again, the stage version couldn't compete.

"It Might as Well Be Spring" is a lovely song, but Andrea McArdle hits everything she sings with a hammer. That's why [italic]State Fair[/italic] flopped on screen. I saw a college production of [italic]Cinderella[/italic] right before the pandemic hit and the scale, which was based largely on what they could afford, seemed about right for something like this. The singing was good. When it was on Broadway, I don't know who thought Fran Drescher's singing would be a selling point.

[quote]That's why State Fair flopped on screen.

Andrea wasn't in either screen version.

I meant stage. She wasn't in the movies because she wasn't born yet.

Oh god, I love that old State Fair movie! I always loved when she and the reporter rode the roller coaster and they filmed the POV sequences. The gal who played Emily Arden was so spectacular and beautiful. And the brother had BDF. Fuck he was hot!

I never miss a Dana Andrews musical.

1962 remake.

The first R&H State Fair is quite a wonderful movie. One of my favorite R&H films. Though the ending is pretty improbable it would be too cruel to have it any other way.

Interesting that in the original version they went with a singer not known for acting (Dick Haymes) as the second male lead and in the remake they went with TWO of them (Darin and Boone.)

Years ago City Opera made Cinderella work in what I remember was an elaborate production. It starred Jean Stapleton and Jane Powell. Wish I had gone more than once. I saw their New Moon several times and that was a joy. Produced lavishly as you would want it to be.

[quote]I saw their New Moon several times and that was a joy. Produced lavishly as you would want it to be.

I am jealous, R227 (not joking). As I've gotten older, operetta sounds less bizarre and less quaint to me. Now I can appreciate its beautiful melodies and recognise its coded sexuality (neither straight nor gay, just human).

The memories of Mitcher's Tales of the South Pacific are a little off here.

DeBeque had only four children in the story. They were not each by a different mother. If anything Nellie was the slut, with a boyfriend back home and an affair with her commanding officer.

Mitcher is pretty explicit that Nellie identified the native people of the island with the black people back in Little Rock. Her repulsion is stated to be that she imagined Emile touching a "black woman" and then touching her.

Well that comes across pretty clearly in the musical Emile fucking a black woman and now he wants to use that same dick to fuck her. Hammerstein got that and put Nellie's revulsion into the show. Sheesh people are idiots especially the asshole who keeps going on about how South Pacific is watered down,

R230 I agree. I think that the adorability of the two kids underlines the point that it is not that he is a father that Nellie objects to but rather racism is her problem.

Also, their cuteness is a challenge to racists in the audience.

R229 MITCHER? Really?

Pacific Islanders are not Black.

It was partially filmed in a girlfriend's home town: Boothbay Harbor, Maine. Or, if you're from that town, you refer to it as "Boozebay" because in the winter (which is when I've often visited) there's not much else to do. I love Boothbay, though.

The Carousel Waltz is my favorite piece from the musical.

The location shoots in the movie really make the soundstage parts noticeable.

I would like to hear more about their last unfinished project Rollercoaster!

[italic]State Fair[/italic] already had every other ride, R236.

"Pacific Islanders are not Black. "

Some are, more or less. As you go south from Indonesia and get to New Guinea and further south, the native people have dark skin and very curly hair. I've always wondered if they're more closely related to the people of Africa or Australia, or neither.

[quote]Pacific Islanders are not Black.

Coulda fooled me.

Then they should have no problem casting a black man as the king of Siam.

Billy Porter IS The King of Siam

R241 I’m sure he’d enjoy the costumes.