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Do you regret not having had children?

I went on Facebook today for the first time in years, and evidently a bunch of the gay guys I used to be friends with in my early twenties have since settled down with partners/husbands and procured themselves some babies.

I’m 35 and childless. I’ve always hated little children and babies, but I’m wondering if that’s some sort of character deficiency on my part. Is my adult life going to be empty without having reared sims children? Will I need offspring to eventually pay for my nursing home convalescing care?

Moreover, am I some sort of metaphysical failure for not having procreated? That seems like one of biggest remaining metaphysical quandaries of being an out gay person.

by Anonymousreply 414June 6, 2021 2:29 PM

Nothing wrong with that. Not everyone is meant to have children. Thankfully some are sufficiently self aware to realize that and conduct their lives accordingly.

by Anonymousreply 1August 7, 2020 4:55 AM

Parenthood isn’t for everyone. Save your guilt for something more worthy.

by Anonymousreply 2August 7, 2020 4:56 AM

Nope. Never wanted kids, never saw the point.

by Anonymousreply 3August 7, 2020 4:56 AM

Old enough to be YOUR father, OP. Never wanted children, never had 'em, never regretted a thing.

by Anonymousreply 4August 7, 2020 4:57 AM

I always told myself if I REALLY, REALLY wanted one, I would do it.

by Anonymousreply 5August 7, 2020 4:57 AM

No guarantee that children will pay for your convalescent care. I worry about the same thing but the reality is that you could have a child who dies before you (god forbid) or is very special needs or who eventually hates you or who ultimately lives 1000 miles away or who had no money etc etc etc.

We are conditioned to believe that without having children you grow old and die sad and forgotten and alone. When you really think about it though, that narrative relies on a lot of assumptions about having healthy responsible functional adult children who are willing and able to care for you. There are no guarantees.

But yeah. I worry too.

by Anonymousreply 6August 7, 2020 4:58 AM

It is kind of a trip to think that every single one of my ancestors survived childhood and lived long enough to procreate, and that it’s ending with me. Sometimes it seems a little ungrateful to my ancestors on my part. But I know I’d make a terrible father, so it’s a nonstarter for me.

by Anonymousreply 7August 7, 2020 5:01 AM

Become a parent to animals. They never let you down.

by Anonymousreply 8August 7, 2020 5:03 AM

To answer your question, HELL NO.

by Anonymousreply 9August 7, 2020 5:09 AM

I'm a lesbian and no, I do not regret not having kids. I'm so glad I didn't. I don't even want to date or be with another lesbian who does have them. Kids are annoying and selfish fuckers. It's funny because all my mother ever wanted was to "be a mom" and she popped out four of us and she sucked so hard at being a mom. She's lucky any of us still speak to her. She's getting dementia and well, good luck to her.

by Anonymousreply 10August 7, 2020 5:12 AM

54, fuck no, and especially of late

by Anonymousreply 11August 7, 2020 5:12 AM

"always hated little children and babies". Such an odd thing to "hate". I suggest you be more tactful. Geez.

by Anonymousreply 12August 7, 2020 5:13 AM

Never, ever regretted it. Right now, with the pandemic and school closing / reopening controversy, I've never been more relieved that I don't have to deal with any of that. Life is stressful enough when you only have to worry about yourself.

by Anonymousreply 13August 7, 2020 5:13 AM

Too many heterosexuals having children resulted in COVID-19, so no.

by Anonymousreply 14August 7, 2020 5:15 AM

43 here. Single and wish I had kids. No desire to procreate but think about adoption at times. Find myself watching baby videos on Youtube a lot. Though I am not sure I would be a good father considering how I am.

by Anonymousreply 15August 7, 2020 5:17 AM

There's a laundry list of reasons not to have children, but whenever I've talked to people who had kids, most of their reasoning behind having children amounted to a sense of obligation.

When the only reason most people have for popping out children is the fact that they feel like it's an expectation, it's pretty clear that not having kids was the right decision.

by Anonymousreply 16August 7, 2020 5:18 AM

During COVID, hearing people with kids go after childfree adults (“you have no idea how hard it is”) makes me think they have a good deal of resentment about their children but don’t want to admit it.

It’s always interesting hearing people call those of us who are childfree “selfish.” When in reality, given the state of the planet, procreating is completely selfish.

But that’s just me....

by Anonymousreply 17August 7, 2020 5:24 AM

OP, metaphysical failure is something to be contemplated by those who've procreated the next generation into a world on the brink of apoplectic apocalyptic dystopia, where survival into old age is much less certain than it was a generation or two ago, and basic resources are becoming scarcer and scarcer. We got Soylent Green instead of The Jetsons.

by Anonymousreply 18August 7, 2020 5:27 AM

R8, ironically, most gays treat their kids like pets.

by Anonymousreply 19August 7, 2020 5:28 AM

My BF wanted us to adopt, and I wanted to, too, but that was when we were a couple. We're not, anymore, and I realize that I would be the one carrying the primary responsibility once we separated. He still tells me I'd make a wonderful father, without realizing that he's touching a sore spot when he brings it up. I tell myself that if it were really that important to me, I could have adopted without him, and I check myself that way.

by Anonymousreply 20August 7, 2020 5:29 AM

r19, I was just gonna say the same thing about us str8 people.

by Anonymousreply 21August 7, 2020 5:30 AM

OP, there is no such thing as metaphysical failure, the two words contradict each other. Failure doesn't matter in the metaphysical scheme of things. You're only really a metaphysical failure if you don't chase your own happiness.

by Anonymousreply 22August 7, 2020 5:32 AM

No, there was never any question of me having children. My own parents made their dislike of their children and parental responsibilities clear, I dislike the company of children, I dislike being around families because I tend to assume their smiles are fake and their relationships are dysfunctional, and everywhere I look I see children who dislike and resent their parents (including in the mirror).

So when a medical issue cost me my fertility, I was like "Hey, no problem!".

by Anonymousreply 23August 7, 2020 5:37 AM

Amen R23.

by Anonymousreply 24August 7, 2020 5:41 AM

Never for one second did I want kids. I've also had two close female co-workers tell me that having children was their biggest regret. They love their kids, but those kids are also their biggest source of misery. If they had the chance to do it again, they'd remain blissfully child-free.

by Anonymousreply 25August 7, 2020 5:46 AM

No. I don't like kids and am perfectly happy contributing to society in the normal gay manner... by not having any!

by Anonymousreply 26August 7, 2020 5:47 AM

I like my family parties. I get to hang with kids for a few hours, and then give them back. I'm everybody's fun cousin/uncle. The idea of doing it 24/7...fuck no.

by Anonymousreply 27August 7, 2020 5:48 AM

There was a hilarious thread called something like "Fraus Drink Themselves to death" Millenials are the first generation to openly admit that parenting is horrible. My friends just had kids and the husband aged literally overnight. They are now dealing with starting kindergarten online, dealing with the kids 24/7 with no escape. It sounds absolutely horrible. I was just out on a few dates with this guy who really wanted kids and was actively pursuing it "to have them take care of me." I do not get it,

by Anonymousreply 28August 7, 2020 5:53 AM

I have never wanted children, I'm too much like my father, so I have no regrets. I enjoy being an uncle to my nephews, though.

by Anonymousreply 29August 7, 2020 5:54 AM

[quote] I worry about the same thing but the reality is that you could have a child who dies before you (god forbid) or is very special needs

Just buy a bunch at the store. Stock up.

by Anonymousreply 30August 7, 2020 5:58 AM

Unfortunately, the reality is that, insofar as life has a purpose at all, that purpose is to perpetuate the species. It’s easy to ignore this when you’re young. It gets harder as you get older and realize that the serenity other people your age seem to enjoy generally derives from that satisfaction of having done one’s part.

It sucks and I feel it too, OP.

by Anonymousreply 31August 7, 2020 6:00 AM

The pleasure of my life was having my two sons who are now 23 and 30.

by Anonymousreply 32August 7, 2020 6:03 AM

Yes I do. For six weeks every summer and Christmas, every other year.

by Anonymousreply 33August 7, 2020 6:05 AM

I’m glad I never had any. Most parents I know seem so miserable, mine were too. I couldn’t, in good conscience, foist all of my shit onto some innocent kid just for my ego or because “that’s what you’re supposed to do”.

by Anonymousreply 34August 7, 2020 6:07 AM

[quote] I've also had two close female co-workers tell me that having children was their biggest regret. They love their kids, but those kids are also their biggest source of misery. If they had the chance to do it again, they'd remain blissfully child-free.

I had a co-worker tell me the same thing. Her son was in his 20s, bipolar and with some other issues. She said he would always have to live with her. A couple other co-workers had sons that had died young...one was murdered. The idea that having a child will bring you a lifetime of joy, and someone to look after you in old age, is just not true for everyone.

by Anonymousreply 35August 7, 2020 6:07 AM

I like kids and I worked for several years as a social worker to children in foster care. I liked the job and the kids I worked with. But, I don't regret my choice to not have kids.

by Anonymousreply 36August 7, 2020 6:12 AM

R31 - I feel that way sometimes too but I also think it’s part of this heteronormative narrative that we internalize from the time we are children. I question it and then doubt myself for questioning it.

But considering climate change and now the pandemic and just the way the world is kind of going to shit - is it really our purpose to keep procreating?

Parents can be as smug as they want about having done their duty, but I maintain that NOT having children is the least selfish thing you can do. There are too many people and not enough resources.

by Anonymousreply 37August 7, 2020 6:13 AM

Most people are unbearable for a few minutes.

It's optimistic and naive to think you are going to enjoy constantly being around some newly created ego-driven human.

by Anonymousreply 38August 7, 2020 6:18 AM

I don't hate kids, but I don't want to be parent and be responsible for them.

by Anonymousreply 39August 7, 2020 6:19 AM

No.

by Anonymousreply 40August 7, 2020 6:20 AM

I don't regret it, but I have many nieces and nephews, so my general genetic material continued onward. Of those nieces and nephews, (11) it appears that only 4 will have biological children, although there are a few more that could surprise me by procreating.

I'm a private music teacher, so I have multi-year relationships with the children I teach. (Usually I'm in their lives and they are in mine for about 6 -8 years - I work with most of my students between the ages of 11 and 18.). Considering that for most of these kids, I'm the most consistent adult in their lives other than their parents, one-on-one time with them for an hour a week, year in and year out, I suppose you could say that I have had a hand in raising dozens and dozens of children. They invite me to their graduations, their weddings, their appearances in their school musicals, sometimes to the christenings of their children, or their bar mitzvahs. I have no desire to raise a child though. Too much responsibility, too much possibility for heartbreak.

by Anonymousreply 41August 7, 2020 6:23 AM

R31, in addition to all the other reasons I stated above for not having children, there's also the fact that in the long run, humanity is better off without my genes. There's an incredibly high incidence of mental illness on both sides of my family, and myself and my siblings have had some issues on that front. So it's just as well that I've never had the desire to reproduce, as well as not having the means (infertile and gay), somehow that natural human instinct passed me by.

I chose to contribute to humanity in other ways, and I'm of far more worth to my species as a healthcare worker than as a breeder. Particularly now.

by Anonymousreply 42August 7, 2020 6:27 AM

Why don't you just donate sperm, and call it a day.

You don't have to deal with them or raise them. But you can rest assured that your genes are somewhere out there being raised by some financially stable single mom or infertile couple who desperately wanted a kid.

by Anonymousreply 43August 7, 2020 6:28 AM

I can’t imagine anything worse. I like peace and quiet, and being able to do what I want. Children would be a nightmare for me. I’ll stick to cats.

by Anonymousreply 44August 7, 2020 6:36 AM

"We Don't Need Another Human...."

by Anonymousreply 45August 7, 2020 6:37 AM

A friend of mine dated a guy years ago who was adopted. He loved his adoptive parents. They were kind to him. (They were also older and I got to meet them.)

He later married my friend.

They immediately popped out 5 kids within a few years. He said he always wanted a family of his own that he created and he got that.

He was a wonderful father right up until his death in an accident at the age of 35.

by Anonymousreply 46August 7, 2020 6:37 AM

"We are the workd, we are the children..."

by Anonymousreply 47August 7, 2020 6:38 AM

R46, poor man.

by Anonymousreply 48August 7, 2020 6:41 AM

Nope, I did the world a favor for not procreating.

I like kids, have a lot of nieces and nephews, but I knew that I would not be a good parent (I just love my freedom too much) and I am too lazy.

by Anonymousreply 49August 7, 2020 6:42 AM

I love my mother to death, she was excellent at being a mom. She has since passed away. Out of 5 kids, I was the only one who took care of her in her retirement years. So much for having kids to help take of you when you get older! The straight ones turned out to be selfish self-centered pricks.

My only regret is being raised in a single parent home. My dad was a fucking druggie/alcoholic loser, so he ditched us when I was 5. It was way too tough for my mom to do it alone, we were poor. I was jealous of the kids who lived in a 2 parent household. I only recommend you have kids if you can provide the stability of a 2 parent household. Don't let your kids suffer.

by Anonymousreply 50August 7, 2020 6:45 AM

I adopyed 20 years ago. My child has a lot of mental health issues. Has been hospitalized for it 3 times. I wouldn't adopt again.

by Anonymousreply 51August 7, 2020 7:00 AM

I've had plenty.

by Anonymousreply 52August 7, 2020 7:07 AM

No, not for a second.

I tend to have some misgivings or questions in my own mind of gay couples of seem a little too outwardly eager and quick to bear fruit. In some it's obviously a sincere and deep-felt urge which I have never shared but don't argue with; in others it seems a bit, well, Jeff Lewis and Bravo TV bring you...a baby! Like the babies that pop up to shake up a tired sit-com series in its sixth season. Maybe I shouldn't be so skeptical, but it seems often enough a sort of showiness or desire "to fill a missing piece" that has more to do with outward appearances than to inner instincts. Applied to straight couples, could I say the same of some of them? Of course, so I realize it's a case of being harder on "my own" than on others. Gay people who adopt I usually have fewer initial doubts about, if only because it seems more an act of altruism than of shopping for a designer test tube baby the way they last year shopped for $150,000 of custom kitchen cabinetry. Anyway, I try to keep an open mind and let things reveal themselves over time rather than assume the worst, which, again, is found in straight couples as well.

I have a straight friend of many years who always asked, "but don't you want to have children of your own, to see what you can make and shape?" No, not at all; and if I did want kids I would want to adopt, the same way I prefer to adopt older pets than fall for the cite, shiny young ones. But a couple decades later, my friend has three kids, all with or finishing PhDs at prestigious universities on two continents, who have studied and worked in and traveled extensively with the exotic careers of their parents in six continents (maybe seven), and who are calm, and confident, and self possessed and very bright and kind and well adjusted. How the fuck did they do that? It seems impossible that there would not be a fuck up in the bunch, a divorce of the parents, a kid (or two) who doesn't realize potential but does realize trouble, a kid who dropped out in first semester but stayed on to work on the lawn crew, the kid who's been to rehab three times... It's more than admirable, it's a little amazing to see this charmed family but it's not about outward recognition it's about exposing their children to the world and a world of possibilities, and supporting the pursuit of their various interests. Admirable and amazing as that example is, it's still not for me.

I'm fascinated by other people's families but children of my own? Hell no

by Anonymousreply 53August 7, 2020 8:12 AM

Yes I do. I might have been a good father. I never had the guts to adopt although it worked well for several friends of mine.

by Anonymousreply 54August 7, 2020 8:41 AM

No. Pets are enough.

by Anonymousreply 55August 7, 2020 8:46 AM

Absolutely not.

by Anonymousreply 56August 7, 2020 8:50 AM

Hell no. One of the best decisions I ever made.

by Anonymousreply 57August 7, 2020 8:50 AM

R14 without heterosexuals you wouldn’t be here

That being said. Never wanted them but my ex did and I love the kids to bits but I worry a lot and I would’ve been less stressed without them. I also don’t expect them to care for me when I grow old. You don’t know what the future will bring, the social welfare system is breaking down and it’ll only be work work work for my generation and for the kids.

by Anonymousreply 58August 7, 2020 8:56 AM

No. But I hate it when people ask "why don't you have kids?" at family gatherings or other events.

Kids are selfish and don't give a shit about you. I've seen it when my nephews and nieces. fucking brats and so spoiled. ungrateful cunts.

by Anonymousreply 59August 7, 2020 9:04 AM

I have a kid and have no regrets. But if I had chosen not to have a child, I wouldn't have regretted that either.

by Anonymousreply 60August 7, 2020 9:38 AM

Never wanted, never had and am very happy that I did what I wanted to do.

by Anonymousreply 61August 7, 2020 10:10 AM

Never. I probably would have been a terrible parent. Also, I would be fearful of the world kids will face. Kids being born today will face deprivation such as we have never seen before due to climate change and most will not live to a natural old age.

by Anonymousreply 62August 7, 2020 10:28 AM

Dear God, NO.

I always thought one of the benefits of being gay is no one expected you to have children.

by Anonymousreply 63August 7, 2020 10:29 AM

Hell NO, I knew as a little kid I never wanted kids

by Anonymousreply 64August 7, 2020 11:07 AM

The thing about having kids is that your needs no longer come first. As evidenced by many responses here, some gays are (and will always be) egotistical. As long as you old queens know that you're just acting like overgrown children yourselves...

by Anonymousreply 65August 7, 2020 11:12 AM

Poppycock R65. You can devote your energies to helping or serving others without having kids.

Think: teachers, social workers, physical therapists, doctors, nurses, good neighbors, and ordinary garden variety decent people.

by Anonymousreply 66August 7, 2020 11:15 AM

I can't even deal with having a pet.

by Anonymousreply 67August 7, 2020 11:16 AM

I was never in a position to consider it, so I try not to think about it too much. However, my mother would have loved grandchildren, so I do regret that.

by Anonymousreply 68August 7, 2020 11:29 AM

No. Not one bit. I am concerned with leaving a legacy behind, but that’s different. Children would not have enhanced my life or vice versa. I wasn’t meant for it.

by Anonymousreply 69August 7, 2020 11:41 AM

[quote] without heterosexuals you wouldn’t be here

So?

by Anonymousreply 70August 7, 2020 12:13 PM

Did anybody else read "Dear Abby" back in the Pleistocene Epoch of 1960s and 1970s?

She put out a call to her readers to write to her about their decision to have children. Abby was flabbergasted about the greater number of responders who wrote to her to say that if they could do it over again, they would NOT have children.

Obviously, that has stuck with me.

by Anonymousreply 71August 7, 2020 12:21 PM

R65 is homophobic.

by Anonymousreply 72August 7, 2020 12:25 PM

If the human instinct is to procreate, could being gay be nature’s way of telling you not to?

by Anonymousreply 73August 7, 2020 12:35 PM

I'm in my late 50s and have no children and currently no partner. My siblings are all older than me. We all took care of my parents before they died, so it makes me wonder who will take care of me when I get old. I do have LTC but that only covers a bit.

Society has started calling that an 'elder orphan, and I guess that's what I am.

That would be my only regret about not having children. Otherwise, no, I don't regret it. I would have been a lousy parent.

by Anonymousreply 74August 7, 2020 12:47 PM

God no.

by Anonymousreply 75August 7, 2020 12:50 PM

R71, I think women of that generation had children because that’s what women did, regardless of whether or not that’s what they actually wanted them.

I’m convinced that my grandmother would not have had children if she had been born 50 years later. She didn’t like them and had no real interested in raising hers. There wasn’t a maternal bone in that woman’s body.

by Anonymousreply 76August 7, 2020 1:05 PM

I have kids. Now that they’re in their teens, they’re a pain in my ass

by Anonymousreply 77August 7, 2020 1:05 PM

*regardless of whether or not they actually wanted them.

by Anonymousreply 78August 7, 2020 1:06 PM

[quote]Do you regret not having had children?

Fuck. No.

by Anonymousreply 79August 7, 2020 1:14 PM

r65 - not only is that homophobic and idiotic, it relies on a false assumption that ALL parents put their children’s needs first before their own.

Guess what?

They don’t. How many of us had selfish parents?

Having children does not magically transform you into a better person. If anything, it can magnify whatever problems you already have.

Please.

by Anonymousreply 80August 7, 2020 1:20 PM

When I was in my teens and twenties, being gay was what made me feel “different”. It’s what I had to hide or compensate for or eventually attend Pride parades for. Nowadays in my late 30s, being childless is sort of the big stigma that differentiates me from most people in my life who are in my age cohort. It’s normal for them to all have kids, for their parents to have grandchildren. When I look around at coworkers, cousins, etc., they’ve all done their duty and had children. They’ve extended the bloodline or whatever, and they’ve given their mothers a stupid baby to spoil in their dotage. I hate kids, but it feels like a failing on my part; like some major duty that I completely skipped.

So do I regret not having kids? Absolutely not, I’d be an awful father. Does not having had kids cause me existential dread if I ever think about this subject? 100% yes.

by Anonymousreply 81August 7, 2020 1:26 PM

Hey lady, you, lady, cursin' at your life You're a discontented mother and a rich inventive wife I've no doubt you dream about the things you'll never do But I wish someone had a talked to me like I wanna talk to you

I've been to Georgia and California, oh, anywhere I could run Took the hand of a preacher man and we made love in the sun But I ran out of places and friendly faces because I had to be free I've been to paradise, but I've never been to me

Please lady, please, lady, don't just walk away Cause I have this need to tell you why I'm all alone today

I can see so much of me still living in your eyes Won't you share a part of a weary heart that has lived a million lie

Oh I've been to Nice and the isle of Greece While I sipped champagne on a yacht I moved like Harlow in Monte Carlo and showed 'em what I've got I've been undressed by kings and I've seen some things That a woman ain't s'posed to see I've been to paradise, but I've never been to me

Hey, you know what paradise is? It's a lie, a fantasy we create about People and places as we'd like them to be but you know what truth is? It's that little baby you're holding, and it's that man you fought with This morning, the same one you're going to make love with tonight That's truth, that's love

Sometimes I've been to cryin' for unborn children That might have made me complete But I, I took the sweet life and never knew I'd be bitter from the sweet I spent my life exploring the subtle whoring that cost too much to be free

Hey lady, I've been to paradise, but I've never been to me

by Anonymousreply 82August 7, 2020 1:31 PM

R73, gay people aren’t infertile. What a moronic take.

by Anonymousreply 83August 7, 2020 1:33 PM

R83 but would you sleep with a woman simply because you want to procreate?

by Anonymousreply 84August 7, 2020 1:41 PM

Not at all.

Creating a sentient being to experience pain and uncertainty. Doesn't seem fair.

There's a 1 in 4 chance they'll get cancer, 1 in 5 chance they will suffer a mental illness. If they are female, a good chance they'll be sexually assaulted. Then there are those those will be murdered or commit suicide.

Sure life can be great, at times, by why put another being through the crap of life?

by Anonymousreply 85August 7, 2020 1:49 PM

R85 I agree but then it is also a very pessimistic outlook on life. What if they turn out happy and healthy. I should never have had kids btw. I’m divorced and I will never forgive myself for the misery they’ve been put through. I had a very happy childhood which led me to believe I could give my own kids the same thing. I was very wrong.

by Anonymousreply 86August 7, 2020 1:53 PM

The human instinct isn't to procreate. Their is a biological urge to fuck, and from that babies are made. To want to have children is pathological.

by Anonymousreply 87August 7, 2020 1:53 PM

^There

by Anonymousreply 88August 7, 2020 1:54 PM

R86 But if you don't have that happy child, they won't know what they are missing out on. Why chance it?

by Anonymousreply 89August 7, 2020 1:57 PM

R84? Are you aware of how many gay people marry opposite sex people for the exact reason of having a family? That this is widespread across cultures and had been the expected norm until just recently? That many cultures still expect this, many even enforce it, and that, even in liberal societies, some gay people still choose that route to have a family, for one reason or another? Are you aware of how many gay people stay closeted, some even unaware internally, until well past the onset of fertility?

Do you know any gay people at all?

by Anonymousreply 90August 7, 2020 1:57 PM

R81 - well said. I feel this.

by Anonymousreply 91August 7, 2020 1:58 PM

Yes, I regret it.

by Anonymousreply 92August 7, 2020 1:58 PM

I always thought one of the perks of being gay was you didn't have children

by Anonymousreply 93August 7, 2020 2:01 PM

R71, Actually, it was Ann Landers, Dear Abby's sister, who polled her readers with that question

I was in my early twenties then and recall being surprised that 70% of her readers responded that they regretted having had children, citing the pain and disappointment they had endured from them over time.

by Anonymousreply 94August 7, 2020 2:05 PM

I’ve always thought that the judgment that childless people were selfish was idiotic. Selfish towards whom? Imaginary might-have-been children? Why is it selfish to want to use your life for a different purpose? Without children I’ve had a great career, mentored countless colleagues, and donated my time and labor for many good causes and reasons. I’ve also cared for sick family members, supported my partner and his family in difficult times, and, yes, watched and minded other people’s kids at times. I’ve bought countless baby, birthday and wedding gifts for other people’s kids over the years, too.

But I’m not even saying you have to do any of that to justify being childless. People who judge for this, of course, are always parents. It’s pure resentment, which says a lot about their parenting and, unfortunately, their offspring. I’ve seen so many families where ignorance, resentment and bigotry are passed down to the next generation like a beloved homestead or a prized heirloom.

I’ve observed that a lot of childless folks come from families like that, too.

by Anonymousreply 95August 7, 2020 2:07 PM

When you think about the majority of the posts on the board, it's fair to say most of us would have raised holy terrors that turned into reprehensible, useless adults. The apple doesn't fall from the tree.

by Anonymousreply 96August 7, 2020 2:15 PM

Having children is a crap shoot, sometimes you hit the jackpot and sometimes, well you have deep regrets. Having children is no guarantee there will someone to take care of you in your old age. Unless you have a very strong parenting desire you are better off taking the money that the kid would have cost you, get a dog or a cat for comfort and invest the rest to hire someone to take care of you in your old age.

Even if you are lucky enough to have a great kid you also have to hope they marry or hook up with a great partner who will also tolerate you. I have no kids and no regrets.

by Anonymousreply 97August 7, 2020 2:16 PM

Yes, what R17 said. My cynical side takes this a little further to say that due to months of school closings and lockdowns, I am loving every minute that certain parents are finding out that their “precious” crotch fruit, are not so “precious” after all. You can’t tell me that these parents want to ship these kids off to school solely for educational reasons. More like for reasons of the parents sanity. Maybe they’ll appreciate teachers more now, for having to put up with their bratty kids.

by Anonymousreply 98August 7, 2020 2:21 PM

No, even before Covid, this world was fucked up. Nowadays, kids are handed their first device when they're 2 years old and their hands won't be empty until they die. They have no conversation skills, no motivation. Their day is spent laughing at stupid memes and Youtube videos. And while most parents would never admit it, their children disappoint them. Many dream of the honors society/head cheerleader/football star/valedictorian/doctor/lawyer kind of kids and they get deadbeats/weirdos/drug addicts/nonbinaries. Being a parent nowadays means having an alcohol addiction.

by Anonymousreply 99August 7, 2020 2:23 PM

r96 that kind of response is so tiresome. Like the heteros are somehow different? I have zero interest in having children but I’m so over this reply from other gays that “most of us” are such horrible monsters that we would raise terrible children. You’re basing that on what? How someone responds on datalounge?

Internalized homophobia if you ask me.

by Anonymousreply 100August 7, 2020 2:23 PM

I'd have turned any kid I had into a child star (fucking my way upwards) and they'd be in rehab now, writing an essay about how much they hated me.

So, no.

by Anonymousreply 101August 7, 2020 2:38 PM

^^ by which I mean, I would have been a slutty stage dad advocating for roles and management for my child in Hollywood.

(See, even when you start [italic]talking [/italic]about children it all gets messy!) (Uggh!)

by Anonymousreply 102August 7, 2020 2:48 PM

Also current terminology is childfree not childless. Seems stupid I know but I like it.

by Anonymousreply 103August 7, 2020 2:52 PM

I was raised in an unstable home (due to a combination of bad parental choices and genetics) and seriously doubt I'd have the wherewithall to create a super sound upbringing for anyone else, emotionally or economically.

(I will say in my defense that I'm an excellent babysitter, however.)

by Anonymousreply 104August 7, 2020 3:09 PM

R100, I assumed that R96 was referring to Dataloungers when he said that. Judging from what a lot of Dataloungers’ childhoods and parents were like (there have been multiple threads where these stories are told; they are both fascinating and incredibly sad), I would agree that most DL posters would make terrible parents.

by Anonymousreply 105August 7, 2020 3:15 PM

[quote] Do you know any gay people at all?

I’m not the poster referred to, but I know plenty of gay people. All or nearly all have been out since they were teenagers. Early 20s at the latest. And no, I’m not especially young.

What you say is generally not true in the US anymore and hasn’t been for the last 25-30 years.

by Anonymousreply 106August 7, 2020 3:17 PM

Yes r105 you’re probably right - but heteros are just as F’d up. The gay couples I know who have children are really good parents. In spite of their upbringings. So I get kind of defensive. Especially now with the more conservative states trying to ban gay foster parents.

Sorry if I overreacted.

by Anonymousreply 107August 7, 2020 3:21 PM

I know someone who has three kids. They all have various mental illnesses and all three refuse to help their mother.

One looted his father’s place the minute he found out he was dead, before he even told the other siblings about the death. He lied and told the coroner he was an only child so he could get the keys.

He stripped the place of anything of value he could grab and then tried to get named executor so he could steal everything else. His siblings found out about the death and stopped him.

There’s no way anybody could rely on this person or his siblings. Having kids doesn’t guarantee they’re even going to be safe to be around in your old age, let alone going to help you.

by Anonymousreply 108August 7, 2020 3:22 PM

R107 as a gay parent you make a much more conscious decision, it’s never an accident. It’s a very good thing.

by Anonymousreply 109August 7, 2020 3:23 PM

R89 that’s true. I’m not saying they are unhappy but every child wants to be around both parents and want to do nice things with both of them. That’s what they mainly lack right now,

by Anonymousreply 110August 7, 2020 3:53 PM

Do you have any idea how many married couples and/or parents feel as empty as you do?

by Anonymousreply 111August 7, 2020 3:58 PM

There was some study cited, I think in the Prop H8 trial, that showed children raised by lesbian couples did the best of all, academically and emotionally.

by Anonymousreply 112August 7, 2020 4:00 PM

Awww lesbian moms are pretty great. Love that R112.

by Anonymousreply 113August 7, 2020 4:03 PM

Not once. I am currently feeling rather smug at my choice. I feel sorry for parents of young kids right now.

by Anonymousreply 114August 7, 2020 4:05 PM

There was some study cited, I think in the Prop H8 trial, that showed children raised by lesbian couples did the best of all, academically and emotionally.

No.

by Anonymousreply 115August 7, 2020 4:29 PM

My gay friends and acquaintances who are raising children are no less insufferable than their breeder counterparts. You don’t have to like children...if you don’t want kids, it’s fine. It’s not a deficiency on your part OP.

by Anonymousreply 116August 7, 2020 4:31 PM

I like children well enough, but I don't feel as if I need to have or raise children. There are enough children already in the hands of others. I suspect I'd be a good parent. I'm one of 8 children, we're all out of our breeding years now, but my parents have only one grandchild. She's 23 now, and just won a national pole dancing contest. She's receiving offers from all over.

by Anonymousreply 117August 7, 2020 4:31 PM

I think I would have enjoyed it, but I don't regret it.

"I’ve always hated little children and babies, but I’m wondering if that’s some sort of character deficiency on my part."

This is a common sentiment. Even more than a few heterosexuals say this. It's all different when it's your baby/child, generally.

by Anonymousreply 118August 7, 2020 4:35 PM

R117, a pole dancer? Sounds like the one grandchild could produce many, many great grandchildren.

by Anonymousreply 119August 7, 2020 4:35 PM

As a lesbian, I could do it via sperm donor, but I'd have to do it RIGHT NOW. But, in my 40s, none of my friends/relatives/acquaintances would have kids the same age. There'd be no dad, no cousins, and the grandparents would probably die before the kid was 10. Even if I did have a partner, the child would still be bullied or discriminated against for having a family that's different. It seems cruel to intentionally bring someone into that situation just so I won't be lonely when I'm old.

by Anonymousreply 120August 7, 2020 4:40 PM

R111 like I posted before I had a grey childhood, loving parents, friends with loving parents. I grew up naive I’ll admit that and no we weren’t even wealthy. Low middle class at best.

by Anonymousreply 121August 7, 2020 4:41 PM

[quote]R115 No

Yes. It was a long term study that followed kids in single and double parent homes of all combinations, and the kids raised by lesbians did the best of all by a slight margin.

(Maybe because their parents weren’t telling everyone to die in a grease fire? Who knows.)

by Anonymousreply 122August 7, 2020 4:41 PM

Great childhood 🤦🏻

by Anonymousreply 123August 7, 2020 4:42 PM

R65, in addition to the comments made by R66, R80, and R83, it seems far more selfish to bring children into this dystopian world. Most people I've known haven't had children for altruistic reasons. And anyone who addresses the audience as "you old queens" sounds like an overgrown childish snoot.

See the link regarding what happened to a couple I knew when they adopted a child. So no, I don't regret being childless.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 124August 7, 2020 4:46 PM

I encourage adoption, but I’d never do that myself. I don’t want kids. Even pets.

by Anonymousreply 125August 7, 2020 4:49 PM

My mom is adopted, and totally fucked up.

You can’t be abandoned by both parents in infancy and call that a great start in life.

by Anonymousreply 126August 7, 2020 4:52 PM

R126 I was adopted and had the best possible childhood. Don’t judge please. I have real family and I don’t care about the biological ones. In the end the ones that love you and care for you are the ones that matter. I’m sorry for your mother though.

by Anonymousreply 127August 7, 2020 4:56 PM

So any couple out there that has love in their hearts and is willing to dedicate to raising a child, any couple wanting to be real parents, as an adopted child I encourage you to go for it if you feel the desire and love. The world needs you and it has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

by Anonymousreply 128August 7, 2020 5:01 PM

Nope- never was realistic. I’m 67. There are advantages to not having children- freedom to indulge oneself more, career, hobbies, you name it, but there are also some of life’s great joys missed particularly when you get to be my age. That’s life! Je ne regrete rein!

by Anonymousreply 129August 7, 2020 5:28 PM

Thank You, r94. I stand corrected.

by Anonymousreply 130August 7, 2020 5:40 PM

My mother was a master at deploying an offhand, casual, yet, oh so profound remark.

When I was teenager, I remember her saying, in the midst of of a discussion about couple my parents knew who had a baby in hopes of saving their relationship: "That's a lot to impose on a child".

The impact of my Mom's astute remark was hugely influential and beneficial to me.

I wish my Mother had never had children. She was a talented, wise, beautiful woman about whom I can't help but wonder about what she would have made of her life without my siblings and me.

by Anonymousreply 131August 7, 2020 5:59 PM

I believe adoptive parents take a hell of a risk.

Most adopted children will at some point want to learn the identity of and possibly seek out their biological parents.

There have been too many heartbreaking stories of adult adopted children locating their biological parents and abandoning their adoptive parents.

When the "Roots" book and mini-series became insanely popular in the 1970s, countless adoptees began searching for their true heritage and resuming new lives with their biological families.

by Anonymousreply 132August 7, 2020 6:04 PM

^^^^^^ this.

by Anonymousreply 133August 7, 2020 6:15 PM

R132 that means the relationship with their real(non biological) parents didn’t mean much in the first place. It happens with biological children too. You do what you can you give the love you have to offer and after that it’s out of your hands, Sorry to be so harsh. I know who my parents are and they’re not the people who conceived me, they are the people who loved me and raised me from when I was a baby. I never felt the urge to look for my biological parents. I’m good. I’m grateful too. Family goes beyond blood.

by Anonymousreply 134August 7, 2020 6:17 PM

There are a lot of forums in the vein of mother regrets and parents who regret having children. It uses to be that women didn't have much of a choice because until the 60s there wasn't much reliable birth control. when the feminists came along in the 2nd wave they were telling women you can have it all. You can't unless you want to slave away for 16 hours a day. In heterosexual relationships, the burden of child-raising, cooking, and housework still fall on the woman and she also has to go out and work. When I was growing up in the 50's women typically had 3 children who they rarely saw because after school we were told to go out and play. They didn't even have to work outside the home. In the summer we were always outside. They didn't pay that much attention to us and I think that arrangement worked out better for both parents and kids. Kids had to actually master things on their own and it built self-esteem. Now the mothers think they have to hover over their children all the time controlling their every move. Seems exhausting. I have never regretted not having children.

by Anonymousreply 135August 7, 2020 6:18 PM

[quote]R132 There have been too many heartbreaking stories of adult adopted children locating their biological parents and abandoning their adoptive parents.

Oh, I’d like to read THOSE stories. This happened “many” times?

Every adoptee I know who’s found their birth parents established some kind of social relationship with them (usually superficial). None were rejected by their birth parents (again) (which is the adoptee’s deepest fear) but none moved to their towns, either.

I got my mom’s adoption files (partially) opened and while only one uncle from her birth mother’s generation was still living, he showed us the family home, introduced her to cousins, etc. She now knows her heritage and original circumstances, and as her favorite cousin said, “You can never have too much family.”

She still wants to be buried beside her adopted parents, though.

by Anonymousreply 136August 7, 2020 6:33 PM

Someone in my family had another child just to save the marriage. We found out her husband was cheating on her with online dating sites while she was at work (he was laid off)...we told her about this and she still had the baby.

straight people are so fucking stupid. and her genes aren't great either. her kid is slow mentally, not retarded level but slow, the 2nd one is normal and the third one is slow as well. stupid cunts.

by Anonymousreply 137August 7, 2020 6:56 PM

I’m glad I had an abortion!

by Anonymousreply 138August 7, 2020 7:03 PM

Senior care facilities are packed to the ceiling with people who have children that never visit them.

by Anonymousreply 139August 7, 2020 7:04 PM

I'm adopted. My brother was not. Guess which one of us was the disappointment? Hint: not me.

I'm certainly curious about my blood ties (and I think it's natural) but I have no interest in replacing my family. Somehow I doubt a woman who gave up 3 babies by 3 fathers in 4 years (I was number 3) would've been a good mother.

My aunt met the son she gave up in high school last year. She's also met his mother. The mothers thanked each other.

by Anonymousreply 140August 7, 2020 7:34 PM

Heartening to hear from adopted adults on here.

I work with kids in foster care and I really appreciate your perspective.

by Anonymousreply 141August 7, 2020 7:38 PM

[quote]R140 I'm certainly curious about my blood ties (and I think it's natural) but I have no interest in replacing my family.

Many adoptees only seek out their birth parents after the pair that raised them is gone. And I haven’t heard of one doing so to “replace” their family. It’s more about wondering where you came from, and about your history.

[quote]Somehow I doubt a woman who gave up 3 babies by 3 fathers in 4 years (I was number 3) would've been a good mother.

If you don’t know her, how do you know what her life was? You could have been fed lies!

It well may be your birth mom was Jackie O.

by Anonymousreply 142August 7, 2020 7:46 PM

[quote]R134 that means the relationship with their real (non biological) parents didn’t mean much in the first place.

There aren’t “”real parents” in an adoption, there are two sets of parents.

by Anonymousreply 143August 7, 2020 7:51 PM

I need to pass on my genes

by Anonymousreply 144August 7, 2020 7:54 PM

What? For dinner?

by Anonymousreply 145August 7, 2020 7:55 PM

I will never have children. Never. In a way, that makes me sad, because I'm the last of my family. I have no siblings (a sister died at the age of two.) My father had no siblings either, so everything ends with me. I don't hate kids, but I'm not entirely crazy about them, either, although for some godforsaken reason they tend to like me.

The only thing I do regret is not being able to pass on the family history, the stories about family members, although my partner has all those tales collected.

My cats are my babies, and I have no regrets about that.

by Anonymousreply 146August 7, 2020 8:11 PM

Fuck no.

by Anonymousreply 147August 7, 2020 8:19 PM

This frau sure regretted her decision to have a kid. DL Mother of the Year!

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 148August 7, 2020 8:23 PM

Then there is my partner and me who have been together longer than forever taking care of my two grand kids. We got them when they were in middle school and high school.

Oldest now has her first job out of college.

The second will be graduating from university in a few years.

Both debt free.

Shit happens. You have to stand up and deal with it.

by Anonymousreply 149August 7, 2020 8:27 PM

How does anyone get through college/university without debt these days? I worked my way through college (UCLA/UC Berkeley), got grants and scholarships, and still accrued debt. This was before many of those grant programs and scholarships disappeared. The cost must be astronomical these days for graduation through private universities.

by Anonymousreply 150August 7, 2020 8:41 PM

R143 unless you were adopted as a baby too I don’t follow. Jus because two people fucked once and the woman couldn’t get an abortion doesn’t make them parents. It’s not the womb you grew in, it’s the people who loved you and raised you.

by Anonymousreply 151August 7, 2020 8:46 PM

[quote]r141 Heartening to hear from adopted adults on here. I work with kids in foster care and I really appreciate your perspective.

This applies mostly adoptees “of a certain age,” but up till the 1970s it was common for middle class girls to be sent off to a out of town institutions (often run by religious organizations) for their unmarried pregnancies, then once there were pressured into surrendering their kids for adoption. The whole idea of “choosing” to give your baby away doesn’t really apply in that scenario.

A fascinating point covered is that very few Black families did this. The girl would be sent away, perhaps to relatives, eventually return, then perhaps a year later the baby would be absorbed into her family and described as a “needy cousin” or something. Everyone knew what the real story was but it wasn’t directly addressed.

THE GIRLS WHO WENT AWAY by Ann Fessler:

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 152August 7, 2020 8:54 PM

Of course adoption outcomes can be negative; but they're often also positive.

I think the huge error people make when discussing adoption is the point of comparison.

People are comparing a person's adoption situation to a hypothetical situation where they aren't adopted and are lovingly raised by their birth parents. But, obviously if they're being adopted that's not an option on the table. The comparison, if one needs to be made at all, is if they're not adopted and languish in foster care and never achieve any family stability.

I think there's more openness these days. A lot of state laws in terms of sealed records have changed. And, adoptive parents generally seem to understand that their kids are going to be curious and more so than before they will be supportive in that decision to find and establish a relationship with birth parents. Of course it's not universal - and there are bad outcomes when kids search and find their birth parents, but overall, this doesn't make me think adoption shouldn't happen. Just because there are negative outcomes and adoptees can be "fucked up", what other option, again, short of being lovingly raised by their birth parents are there that would magically make it so that they're no chance of a negative outcome?

by Anonymousreply 153August 7, 2020 8:59 PM

[quote]R151 Just because two people fucked once and the woman couldn’t get an abortion doesn’t make them parents. It’s not the womb you grew in, it’s the people who loved you and raised you.

parent (noun)

par·​ent | ˈper-ənt

1a : one that begets or brings forth offspring

b : a person who brings up and cares for another (foster parents)

2a : an animal or plant that is regarded in relation to its offspring

b : the material or source from which something is derived

c : a group from which another arises and to which it usually remains subsidiary

by Anonymousreply 154August 7, 2020 9:04 PM

FFS R154 we both know that often the biological father isn’t even known. What is your point? Genes matter more than parenthood? I wholeheartedly disagree

by Anonymousreply 155August 7, 2020 9:12 PM

FFS R154 we both know that often the biological father isn’t even known. What is your point? Genes matter more than parenthood? I wholeheartedly disagree

by Anonymousreply 156August 7, 2020 9:12 PM

I’ve never wanted children and I have never bought into the idea that those who have them are wonderfully unselfish people.

If I’m alone when I’m old, that’s fine. I’ll also not have spent a large part of my best years looking after children. That looks like a lot of work!

by Anonymousreply 157August 7, 2020 9:20 PM

R149, did you pay for your grandchildren's college educations? Many parents I know are overwhelmed by the prospect of that expense.

by Anonymousreply 158August 7, 2020 9:23 PM

Since I'm a man, I can have kids at any time.

by Anonymousreply 159August 7, 2020 9:25 PM

R159, do you have $100,000 laying around to pay for a donated egg and then a surrogate to carry the embryo to term?

by Anonymousreply 160August 7, 2020 9:52 PM

r16 I think a significant minority of people ,I'm sorry to say, have children as a means of avoiding or delaying as much as they can getting work , having a job etc. I am in the uk and its something prevalent on some(but not exclusively so) in some sections of the population in social housing in tougher distr6.Some are in families were neither their parents, grandparents or even great grandparents ever really worked but decided to have large families anyway. Sociologists would refer to them as part of the underclass rather than the traditional working class. They make zero connection between ability to provide and choices about procreation. I'm sure the USA has its equivalents.

by Anonymousreply 161August 7, 2020 10:30 PM

I think the ones who've "procured themselves babies" have a lot more to feel guilty about than you, OP.

by Anonymousreply 162August 7, 2020 10:34 PM

I enjoy my freedom and disposable income too much.

by Anonymousreply 163August 7, 2020 10:37 PM

So many people have children solely out of peer pressure and conformist instincts. I wish we could make it a truly viable and acceptable choice to not have children, so that people aren’t nagged at family dinners, etc. I wish the governments of the world would encourage people not to procreate.

by Anonymousreply 164August 7, 2020 10:46 PM

In all seriousness, I take having no children as one of the great achievements in my life. I am bipolar, so I would have passed on a hereditary illness in all likelihood, and I would have been a terrible parent. Plus, the world does not need my babies.

by Anonymousreply 165August 7, 2020 10:49 PM

Straight people are nagged relentlessly by their family, friends, and coworkers. But especially by their parents who want grandkids. They feel pressured by all of society to follow the "life script" (marriage, 2.5 kids, house).

As a gay woman, I'm an outlier of the "life script". At first, I was sad that my life wouldn't be "typical", but now I'm glad I had the freedom to pursue a different path in life. And, now straight people do too, with the availability of birth control and growing acceptance of the childfree lifestyle. (Check out the reddit group r/childfree.)

by Anonymousreply 166August 7, 2020 11:04 PM

Love that group R166

by Anonymousreply 167August 7, 2020 11:12 PM

I'm 32 and with a partner who's a little bit older. He loves kids and has always wanted them, but I'm self-aware enough to know that I just don't want them in any way shape or form. We're already barely getting by as is. Why add a child to that? We have a wonderful dog who has become our child and I'm fine with that. At least dogs don't have the chance of growing up and sending you to a nursing home and being a little asshole.

I must have skipped the parenting gene, too.

by Anonymousreply 168August 7, 2020 11:19 PM

People always say they have kids so there will be someone to hold their hand when they die, but what if they're a terrible parent and the kid never wants to see them again or what if their child dies before them due to a drug overdose or a car hitting them or something?

To me, it makes more sense to get yourself some good friends who might outlive you so you'll have someone there for you. I get that it's always nice to have someone by your side, but children aren't guaranteed to do that and nothing is a guarantee in life anyway except death and taxes as they say.

by Anonymousreply 169August 7, 2020 11:22 PM

People with children should be grateful for tax-paying people who don't have children. Why should any of us child-free or childless people for guilty in any way? We pay taxes for schools, roads, etc., in disproportionate amounts, it seems.

by Anonymousreply 170August 7, 2020 11:23 PM

"People are comparing a person's adoption situation to a hypothetical situation where they aren't adopted and are lovingly raised by their birth parents."

The real situation is adoption vs. "parent", singular. Or rather, parent (singular) and future stepfather or stepfathers, or future live-in boyfriends or girlfriends or whatever.

If adoption is even on the table, in 99.9999% of cases, that means the sperm donor is either entirely absent, or has declined to participate in raising the child. Which mean any child that is not adopted out after all, is raised by the mother and whoever she brings in to co-parent. Sometimes it's the grandparents, but typically it's a straight men, and not all straight men make good step-parents.

by Anonymousreply 171August 7, 2020 11:29 PM

Also once your kids have kids forget it. It’s always the childfree who end up caring for their parents while the siblings with children get off scot free.

So they want the grandchildren and they want someone there to take care of them.

It’s all a headache.

by Anonymousreply 172August 7, 2020 11:32 PM

fuck no!! I'm glad I had an abortion!

by Anonymousreply 173August 7, 2020 11:32 PM

So "Love With The Proper Stranger" is playing, and I'm watching Steve McQueen and Natalie Wood struggle with an unintended pregnancy, and the fact that neither of them really wants to settle down or spend their lives with the other, and that they can't afford to raise a kid.

Let's bow our heads and have a moment of silence, and give thanks to whatever it is we thank, that we are not heterosexuals.

by Anonymousreply 174August 7, 2020 11:35 PM

So "Love With The Proper Stranger" is playing, and I'm watching Steve McQueen and Natalie Wood struggle with an unintended pregnancy, and the fact that neither of them really wants to settle down or spend their lives with the other, and that they can't afford to raise a kid.

Let's bow our heads and have a moment of silence, and give thanks to whatever it is we thank, that we are not heterosexuals.

by Anonymousreply 175August 7, 2020 11:35 PM

So "Love With The Proper Stranger" is playing, and I'm watching Steve McQueen and Natalie Wood struggle with an unintended pregnancy, and the fact that neither of them really wants to settle down or spend their lives with the other, and that they can't afford to raise a kid.

Let's bow our heads and have a moment of silence, and give thanks to whatever it is we thank, that we are not heterosexuals.

by Anonymousreply 176August 7, 2020 11:35 PM

Well shit!

That triple was the Datalounge's fault, not mine.

by Anonymousreply 177August 7, 2020 11:46 PM

I have advice for R120, but I have to go pick up my take out right now.

I'll be back later tonight.

by Anonymousreply 178August 8, 2020 12:07 AM

Kids are really expensive to raise. And with the job market and economy not looking to improve anytime soon, the kids will never leave home. Ever.

by Anonymousreply 179August 8, 2020 12:09 AM

OP NO!

When someone pushes their precious crotchfruit at me, I use Joan Rivers line and say" make it disappear back where it came from."

by Anonymousreply 180August 8, 2020 12:12 AM

As if gay marriage weren't bad enough, now gays have to feel guilty about not reproducing. What's next? We are all turning into trannies.

by Anonymousreply 181August 8, 2020 12:17 AM

I’ve always loved children but even as a child, I was surrounded by selfish parents. I promised myself I would never have kids to live through them and “correct” my life mistakes.

My straight brother married a gold- digger whose ignorant, racist, mother is telling her to have a third child because their two children are growing up. My sister-in-law has always had reproductive issues (which she withheld from my brother) and has had an ectopic pregnancy during this pandemic. She’s been suffering and couldn’t get tested in time to have the procedure she needed. When she was pregnant before, with infertility treatment, she walked around cradling her belly and complained.

She is a terrible mother who lies to my brother and uses the children to bolster her self esteem and chase status symbols (like spending money on yacht club camps and the most expensive toys and vacations). She helicopters them to the point they’ve never been alone with me or my parents. She teaches them to value money and comes from a family that doesn’t believe in getting an education.

I think my brother married her because in the eyes of her family, he is a rock star. They are unemployed and have many, many children.

My nephews were told by the school to get therapy when they were still in grade school. They know their mom is a liar but are loyal to her.

I feel sorry for them and my mother who always wanted grandchildren.

The world is tough enough without having parents who use you.

by Anonymousreply 182August 8, 2020 12:20 AM

Frau here. I love children and grew up in a generally stable home. I assumed I would have children. However, in college, I swore to myself if I had a child it would be within the confines of a legal marriage to a man who wanted to be a good father. I am not money-oriented but expected him to work at a stable job. The legal marriage is for enforceable rights. It never happened. I briefly considered adoption but decided against it. I know I am supposed to feel regret but overall I am just fine with it. Maybe I am a bitch? BTW: I am an active aunt.

by Anonymousreply 183August 8, 2020 12:39 AM

I wanted to be an active, favorite uncle, but my nieces and nephews are all a bunch of needy, selfish Millennials, NONE of which have ever sent me even a birthday card, text, call or email.

So they will not be in my will. Fuck em.

by Anonymousreply 184August 8, 2020 12:43 AM

I do not regret it at all. But my str8 friends resent the fact that I am not bogged down with children.

by Anonymousreply 185August 8, 2020 12:44 AM

For those asking, my partner and I paid (and continue to pay) for college/university expenses not covered by scholarships. It is important to us that the grand kids start their adult life with no school debt hanging over their heads.

by Anonymousreply 186August 8, 2020 12:55 AM

Gay guys regret they can’t have children, NOT they don’t have children

by Anonymousreply 187August 8, 2020 1:08 AM

[quote]r171 If adoption is even on the table, in 99.9999% of cases, that means the sperm donor is either entirely absent, or has declined to participate in raising the child.

Are you the Made Up Statistics fairy? What's your source for this?

In the book at R152, there's a story about a girl who got pregnant by her boyfriend and they wanted to marry and raise the child. But her parents said they'd only condone the marriage if they gave that child away when it was born and married after, telling them "they could have more."

They did, but they never forgot that first baby they were pressured to give away as teens.

by Anonymousreply 188August 8, 2020 1:28 AM

There are already too many children without the gays also having children.

by Anonymousreply 189August 8, 2020 1:29 AM

Thank you all for so many interesting stories and points of view. I never ever had any desire to have children. I never had daydreams of having a family and raising kids. I always thought it was natural for a gay to be that way until more recently with gays able to marry and then raising kids. I’m retired, 76, had a fun life and have never had any regrets for how things turned out.

by Anonymousreply 190August 8, 2020 2:17 AM

But you could be like us!!

I still think their baby sounds like a law firm: Beckett Mercer Ferguson-Mikita

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 191August 8, 2020 2:34 AM

I realized that children don't look after their parents from this film...

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 192August 8, 2020 2:38 AM

Just like heterosexual couples, if a gay couple wants to adopt, they want a white baby. Preferably newborn. Few people want older or nonwhite children. Naturally, white newborn babies are the hardest to get.

by Anonymousreply 193August 8, 2020 2:41 AM

Life will be much harder in the future. Whether one adopts or has biological kids, one can be a great parent straight or gay. But even if kids have loving adults caring for them, their lives can be difficult. People can have disabilities, disease and financial problems. People die unexpectedly. And sometimes we don’t protect our children from those who do awful things.

Being a parent is the easiest way for a selfish person to learn to love. Raising kids are also an instant way to find a purpose in life. Kids are fun.

Thoughtful people and those with any doubt about their commitment and fitness shouldn’t have kids. There are enough children and we need to take better care of all currently living humans.

I really do believe it may be better to regret not having kids than having them.

by Anonymousreply 194August 8, 2020 2:42 AM

^^ is not are.

by Anonymousreply 195August 8, 2020 2:43 AM

R191 aren’t they insufferable? I thought for a minute they might actually keep the baby relatively private but they are already whoring him out on Instagram and taking sponsorships for baby stuff.

by Anonymousreply 196August 8, 2020 2:50 AM

What are our thoughts on people in countries like the USA and UK etc who have very little money and no job most of the time but actually have large or very large families, 3,4,5,6,7 etc children? How can they justify that to themselves in this day and age?

by Anonymousreply 197August 8, 2020 3:21 AM

R197 they don’t think about it. Sex plus lack of birth control/family planning = babies.

by Anonymousreply 198August 8, 2020 3:37 AM

I knew from a very young age that I did not want to pass my father's genes on to another being, and decided to never have children. I would only say this here, and to my husband. I fear that people would think it impossible for a child (I think I was about 6 when I realised this) to come to this conclusion, and it incredibly selfish, but I so clearly recall sitting at the dinner table and looking at my parents, my father in particular, and thinking some people shouldn't have kids.

by Anonymousreply 199August 8, 2020 4:08 AM

[quote]r199 and it is incredibly selfish

It's not selfish. The planet is bursting at the seams with people, and is breaking down because of it.

by Anonymousreply 200August 8, 2020 4:27 AM

Yes r199 it’s really the least selfish thing you could do actually. There should be more people like you.

by Anonymousreply 201August 8, 2020 4:33 AM

Muslims have more children

by Anonymousreply 202August 8, 2020 4:49 AM

R202 As do Orthodox Jews and Mormons.

by Anonymousreply 203August 8, 2020 4:50 AM

Children would only have gotten in the way of my erotic lifestyle.

by Anonymousreply 204August 8, 2020 4:52 AM

Muslims shall inherit the world then

by Anonymousreply 205August 8, 2020 4:52 AM

Propagate or perish

by Anonymousreply 206August 8, 2020 4:53 AM

R73 There is no drive to procreate. There is a drive to have sex. Procreation is a result of the sex drive.

by Anonymousreply 207August 8, 2020 5:04 AM

R199, Didn't Patti Davis have a tubal ligation at a young age so she would not pass along Nancy Reagan's genes?

by Anonymousreply 208August 8, 2020 5:18 AM

Reading through this thread, I suddenly realized that I know of quite a few straight men who, due to unhappy childhoods or complete indifference to the kid biz, have had vasectomies.

by Anonymousreply 209August 8, 2020 5:21 AM

My cousin had a vasectomy after his first divorce. Two boys. Thank god because second wife was a train wreck too. First wife has at LEAST 3 other children.

by Anonymousreply 210August 8, 2020 5:34 AM

R199, you’re not the only one. My mom was bipolar and I can remember being eight or nine and thinking, I can’t pass her genes on. It wouldn’t be fair to the kid.

Many years later, I’m now glad I didn’t have kids. I have nieces and nephews that got alcoholism from one side of their family and bipolar from the other. And some are drunks and all have major mental health issues. When they hit about forty things really took a turn for the worse. Before that it wasn’t so obvious and they all seemed to be doing well. There seems to be some kind of menopause related time when the depression and bipolar really kicks in. When I think of bringing a child into this world who’s going to end up like that, I’m so glad I never did.

by Anonymousreply 211August 8, 2020 6:21 AM

Menopause is late 40s.

by Anonymousreply 212August 8, 2020 6:37 AM

Or early to mid-fifties. Peri menopause is late 40’s.

by Anonymousreply 213August 8, 2020 7:11 AM

Depends on which woman.

by Anonymousreply 214August 8, 2020 7:13 AM

So in the 80s it was in fashion to catch and die of the aids - now to catch and raise revolting rug rats? No thanks. No gaybies needed.

by Anonymousreply 215August 8, 2020 7:22 AM

There can’t be many willing to have a child with a gay man

by Anonymousreply 216August 8, 2020 8:54 AM

No regrets about not being a parent as a gay male in my late 40’s. It wasn’t really practical legally in terms of surrogates and adoption when I was optimum ‘child bearing age’. I like being a guncle and giving kids back at the end of the day. I am starting to think about my later years and support though like the OP mentions. I’ve seen so many situations where people with several biological children are practically abandoned in their time of need, so having kids is no guarantee. I have plenty of nephews and nieces and by my elder years will also have adult great nephews and great nieces. I figure whoever steps up for me will be the primary beneficiary in my will. Quid pro quo. No need to mention it, someone will be smart enough to figure it out. It’s sort of like that Ryan Murphy doc about lesbian couple from Saskatchewan who lived in a Chicago for decades and moved back to Canada to die with the help of a niece.

by Anonymousreply 217August 8, 2020 9:28 AM

What’s a “grey childhood?”

by Anonymousreply 218August 8, 2020 10:00 AM

One is enough and I have no need for grandchildren.

by Anonymousreply 219August 8, 2020 10:15 AM

I hate to say it but adopted children often have the same problems that their biological parents had. It is probably cruel to say that but it is true.

by Anonymousreply 220August 8, 2020 10:35 AM

[quote] [R199], Didn't Patti Davis have a tubal ligation at a young age so she would not pass along Nancy Reagan's genes?

Ron Junior is also childfree. That should tell you something.

by Anonymousreply 221August 8, 2020 1:48 PM

r82 That is a violation of copyright. Don't post complete lyrics.

by Anonymousreply 222August 8, 2020 3:00 PM

Your BUTT is a violation!

by Anonymousreply 223August 8, 2020 3:17 PM

[quote] I hate to say it but adopted children often have the same problems that their biological parents had. It is probably cruel to say that but it is true.

Why is that cruel to say? So much seems to be genetic, e.g., disposition toward addiction, etc.

by Anonymousreply 224August 8, 2020 6:59 PM

Which is why it perplexes me when parents adopt children from Eastern Europe without doing real background checks.

by Anonymousreply 225August 8, 2020 7:02 PM

Adopting the Eastern European kids is a real risk. They have major attachment disorders from the orphanage system there - being left alone in cribs for hours.

When someone adopts an Eastern European or Russian kid it screams that they just wanted a white baby. And then they pay a steep price.

by Anonymousreply 226August 8, 2020 7:26 PM

I read somewhere that it's easier for a child to recover from abuse, compared to neglect. So sad to be neglected like that and crying is futile.

by Anonymousreply 227August 8, 2020 7:28 PM

Yes R277 the attachment problems wreak havoc longterm and are very hard to reverse. It’s horribly sad.

by Anonymousreply 228August 8, 2020 7:34 PM

Having kids is a crapshoot whether you buy them or breed them

by Anonymousreply 229August 8, 2020 7:37 PM

^^ But you know more about the odds if you if you have more knowledge.

I have a relative who has a child with a rare disorder. The relative says she would have aborted had she known. Her mother keeps whining her daughter doesn’t deserve a child with a disease. The daughter has a relatively high quality of life now but her disease will progress.

They are ruining their present day. The daughter gets their negative vibes.

The situation is tough for the younger brother.

by Anonymousreply 230August 8, 2020 7:50 PM

I have nothing but respect for people who adopt. Gay, straight, or whatever. If you don't want to, then don't. But there are humans in this country who need care and love.

by Anonymousreply 231August 8, 2020 8:11 PM

Adopters can be sick, abusive assholes, R231. But, I realize, in the best of scenarios, adopters can be life savers as well.

by Anonymousreply 232August 8, 2020 10:19 PM

No. I had sterilization surgery at 32 or 33, I'm 45 now and it's one of the best decisions I ever made. Nothing about parenthood looks appealing to me, especially under the current state of affairs as other posters have pointed out. I really don't understand why anyone chooses to have them. Although I suspect most don't exactly choose it. We probably spend more time deciding what to have for dinner than most parents spend deciding to have a kid. They just do it because it's "what you do" or are too stupid or careless to use birth control.

by Anonymousreply 233August 8, 2020 10:23 PM

[quote]r226 Adopting the Eastern European kids is a real risk. They have major attachment disorders from the orphanage system there - being left alone in cribs for hours.

I know a couple that did this in the late 80s. The little girl grew up to be increasingly reckless and demented, a runaway, and the family would only hear from her every 2 years or so when she landed in hospitals and someone was contacted as next of kin.

They haven't received such a call in a decade now and assume she's dead.

by Anonymousreply 234August 8, 2020 10:51 PM

If I was straight, I’d make them cut my balls out. I wouldn’t even trust a vasectomy.

by Anonymousreply 235August 8, 2020 10:55 PM

How do you guys claim to hate babies? I get whiny kids but chubby and cuddly babies? I am gay and I adore babies and regret not having one. However, the truth is my sister had 1 son who was just the happiest fat little guy who would jump in my arms and laugh his head off at anything and a pair of twins who were equally good natured, petite, and super well behaved. So, I guess, you need to experience the fun of babies to appreciate them but I find them as fun as kittens and puppies. Why? Because the world hasn't messed them up yet with homophobia and turned them into assholes yet.

by Anonymousreply 236August 8, 2020 11:05 PM

A parent's central function is to protect their child from harm until they're grown. You can't do that when you put an infant up for adoption. I would rather my child not be born than forever wonder if they're okay. For all I know they'd be placed in a cage in a basement somewhere.

So, sorry, no, I don't trust the system or the rest of the world that much.

by Anonymousreply 237August 8, 2020 11:05 PM

What's the statistic... among heterosexuals something like 30-50% of pregnancies are unintended?

Homosexual is a gift from whatever power hands out the gifts, because life is better when reproduction is difficult rather than too easy.

by Anonymousreply 238August 8, 2020 11:13 PM

I love babies. I think age 9 (and that’s being generous) is probably where I would be done. The thought of parenting a preteen and then teenager sounds miserable.

by Anonymousreply 239August 8, 2020 11:22 PM

Yes, of my few regrets in life, this is definitely one of them. I regret not having had children (I think I would have been a great Dad), I regret not giving my parents grandchildren and I regret not being able to name one of my kids after my Grandmother, with whom I was very close.

by Anonymousreply 240August 8, 2020 11:29 PM

"Being a parent is the easiest way for a selfish person to learn to love. Raising kids are also an instant way to find a purpose in life."

Gag. And no. Selfish people who have kids often remain selfish. Both of my parents were complete narcissists and didn't give one shit about their kids. Sure, they fed us, clothed us and made sure we went to school, but when they tried to kill each other they both fucked their kids over time and time again and messed us all up for life. Selfish people should not have kids. Also, anyone who thinks having kids will give their lives a meaning and a purpose needs to attempt to find that shit elsewhere first. Kids are not here to make our lives meaningful. It's the opposite. When you have a kid, your single most important job should be to attempt to make their lives meaningful because in the end, life isn't meaningful. I often question the whole point of this existence. It's mostly suffering and being born into a world where your only "purpose" will be to be a cog in the wheel. We are all so full of fucking self importance when in reality, when we die, no one will likely care or remember us. Dust in the wind.

by Anonymousreply 241August 8, 2020 11:48 PM

I don't know about other people, but I would like to have a kiddo because I had a wonderful childhood (orchestrated by a grandmother), and I feel like I would like to give someone else a wonderful childhood. (My own parents weren't so hot, but my grandmother was a warm and loving woman who was interested in everyone and live to help other people.)

by Anonymousreply 242August 8, 2020 11:57 PM

I also feel like if I really wanted kids, I would have figured out a way to have them. The fact that I don’t have them at 40 and I’m not tortured about it (though sometimes feel like what it I die alone etc) is a sign I didn’t want them.

People who desperately want children tend to have them (notwithstanding fertility issues).

by Anonymousreply 243August 9, 2020 12:04 AM

"How do you guys claim to hate babies? I get whiny kids but chubby and cuddly babies?"

Unlike every other new mammal, human babies give off piercing, supremely irritating screams, instead of dainty little chirps or mews. And you don't get to shut them up, it's not considered socially acceptable to quiet a child that isn't your own, not that anyone can quiet a screaming baby that feels like screaming.

You know that sense of sinking dread you feel when you see a baby or very small child seated near you on an airplane? Some of us feel that way about children of screaming age every time we see them.

by Anonymousreply 244August 9, 2020 12:11 AM

It's interesting to watch selfish people have children (not interesting for the children). A selfish woman friend of mine got married to a selfish man; it was almost like she had to give him an ultimatum to get married or break up (bad start). They had not one, but two, children. Huge fights ensued about child care, house work, etc. Divorce followed. The kids actually got more attention from each parent after the divorce.

by Anonymousreply 245August 9, 2020 12:13 AM

I'll never have another one!

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 246August 9, 2020 12:13 AM

I've always thought I'd be a good parent if I found a baby in a basket on my porch. If there was no turning back, I'd do a good job.

But I certainly wouldn't seek one out.

by Anonymousreply 247August 9, 2020 12:15 AM

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WOULD SOMEBODY PLEASE SHIT IN MY MOUTH???!!!!!

by Anonymousreply 248August 9, 2020 1:40 AM

I’m very happy with my boys Colton, Packer, and Mackenzie.

by Anonymousreply 249August 9, 2020 1:41 AM

My regret is that we didn't did have kids earlier. We waited late - but I still love my kids - no matter how hard-as-shit it is to raise them . I hope they turn out to be good people - so far, they seem to be that way. People have commented how nice and caring they are.

by Anonymousreply 250August 9, 2020 1:46 AM

If I had a daughter, I'd name her Cass-city.

by Anonymousreply 251August 9, 2020 5:38 AM

Not [italic]LIZA[/italic] ? ? ?

(Actually, I always thought Lorna was a pretty, and underused, name. But DL has spoiled it for me!)

by Anonymousreply 252August 9, 2020 5:48 AM

I wish people would have LESS children. We're overrunning the planet and destroying habitats all over the place. The earth and nature would be much better off without so many people around gobbling up resources.

by Anonymousreply 253August 9, 2020 6:02 AM

If you don’t have patience you won’t make a good parent. I love my nieces and nephews but by the end of the day I am more than happy to return them to their parents. They are overwhelming if I am around them more than two days.

by Anonymousreply 254August 9, 2020 3:57 PM

Same R254. I'm not a patient soul.

by Anonymousreply 255August 9, 2020 4:54 PM

It's true we need fewer children, but we also need more empathetic, educated (either formally or informally) people on this planet, and the one child that a stable gay or lesbian couple has usually tends to turn out better than a family with many unplanned children.

by Anonymousreply 256August 9, 2020 11:11 PM

R256 We can’t tell others not have children. In my extended family, the dummies have plenty and the smarter, better educated have abstained because of the dumb genes.

But yeah, my gay friends who really wanted it and planned for parenting are terrific parents

by Anonymousreply 257August 9, 2020 11:19 PM

Not at all. The full effects of COVID haven't hit yet - this country is going to enter into a depression like it's never seen before. Having to pay for kids vs. having to just pay for yourself is going to be what makes or breaks families. It's easier to stay afloat if you're single and have no dependents. Also, it's selfish to have kids. The world is being ruined. 40 years from now global warming is going to make things horrible.

by Anonymousreply 258August 9, 2020 11:24 PM

I have dogs & cats instead. And a long-time partner. Too old to deal with kids now.

by Anonymousreply 259August 9, 2020 11:27 PM

[quote]r258 It's easier to stay afloat if you're single and have no dependents.

I would say it's easier to stay afloat as part of a couple that doesn't have dependents.

You're splitting rent and utility bills. If one of you loses work it may mean you don't lose housing. You may have access to health insurance one didn't have on their own. If you are both evicted, there's two sets of parents who may offer to help.

by Anonymousreply 260August 9, 2020 11:40 PM

My poor mum had one kid born with disabilities who then died young, another fall into long-term life-altering depression caused by breakdown (me, now at 80-90% recovery but it’s taken a very long time), and the last one go off abroad to marry into an Arab family. Not ideal.

My maternal grandmother only hears from her two hastily-emigrated sons (my uncles) once in a blue moon, and that’s if they conveniently need one of their cunt kids or grandkids (my cousins) to crash in her house for some reason. There’s a good chance when the time comes that they won’t turn up for the old girl’s funeral. My mother does her best for my grandmother with my help as we live close to her, but there’s only so much slack we can pick up.

My father’s family are a total write-off. All fucked-up in some shape or form, crazy or alcoholic or PTSD-cases or criminals. My paternal grandparents died in relative poverty and driven insane, basically. My dad has several siblings and none of them has spoken a word to one another since their parents (my paternal grandparents) died and they went to court in an embarrassing white-trashy public spat over inheritance around fifteen years ago.

Doesn’t really seem worth it for me to continue the line, given that history. Any kids I did give birth to would have a higher-than-usual odds of being mentally-ill, physically-disabled, or just having nasty personalities. Add the fact I’m a lesbian, which means I will likely never earn enough to raise children in comfort even with a partner, or have the financial privileges or governmental support given to Frauen with kids.

by Anonymousreply 261August 9, 2020 11:44 PM

Good point re: part of a childless couple.

Regardless, kids are annoying and given preferential treatment in society and its not fair.

by Anonymousreply 262August 10, 2020 12:06 AM

Intelligent and thoughtful people from horrible families or with family histories of bad genes will stop and think "I shouldn't have kids". Stupid people from horrible families or with families histories of bad genes don't stop and think, they just desperately reach out for someone to love them and make them feel better for a moment. And if they're heterosexuals, that usually means there's a pregnancy before long.

Natural selection is no longer running the show.

by Anonymousreply 263August 10, 2020 12:11 AM

r258 I think the birthrate will plummet as a result of coronavirus and the economic recession depression as a result of it. Not the babyboom less analytical minds predicted.

by Anonymousreply 264August 10, 2020 12:22 AM

I remember reading the "Gay Uncle Theory," which posits what would be the evolutionary advantage to being gay. In short, gays can funnel more resources to their nieces and nephews (assuming they like them) to ensure their "survival." I.e. food, education, medical expenses, etc.

Kinda funny as I do like to spoil my nieces when I visit them and on their birthdays.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 265August 10, 2020 12:28 AM

[quote] I would say it's easier to stay afloat as part of a couple that doesn't have dependents. You're splitting rent and utility bills.

Yes, the DINK (double-income, no kids) situation is best, financially. Has to be a romantic couple, though, so you only need a one-bedroom apartment. (I.e., 2 people can share one bedroom; platonic roommates would need 2 bedrooms.) Instead of paying $1,000 (for example) for a 1-bedroom, you're paying $500.

Also, there are economies of scale. One person does laundry and the other person can throw in his dirty clothes as well. One person cooks & can throw a 2nd whatever into the frying pan.

by Anonymousreply 266August 10, 2020 12:40 AM

No kids here. My brother (divorced) has a child who is kind of spoiled. Brother & I recently had a heavy talk about important family matters. I wasn't intending to tell him this, but I did tell him that he never set things up for me to be close to my nephew. (If I had not edited myself, I would have told my brother that he never corrected my nephew when nephew was being rude.)

I'm glad all of that came out. I had already stopped buying presents for my nephew because he reached 18. I feel freed from having to pretend now.

by Anonymousreply 267August 10, 2020 12:44 AM

[quote] I wish people would have LESS children.

Oh, dear.

by Anonymousreply 268August 10, 2020 12:48 AM

R267 my mother has a large family. All the cousins got checks and/or small gifts at Christmas from The Aunts. It stopped at 18 for each of us. Never expected anything more than that.

by Anonymousreply 269August 10, 2020 1:13 AM

Yeah r265, I financed my niece and nephews’ elementary school days, buying books, lunches and clothing that his crackhead parents were incapable of procuring. I barely hear from them.

by Anonymousreply 270August 10, 2020 2:17 AM

I'm a terrible person, but whenever I see parents struggling during this time with having to work while home schooling kids or any other struggles I secretly think "You did this to yourself."

by Anonymousreply 271August 10, 2020 12:37 PM

I absolutely do not regret not having children. I've watched my sister's kids create complete havoc in their lives. And as for kids continuing a family line and holding a family together, it has been the exact opposite. The same thing has played out on my husband's side of the family.

by Anonymousreply 272August 10, 2020 12:47 PM

R271 I'm with you. And although I know that pathological American capitalism is responsible for creating the situation wherein both parents have to work, I still believe that unless you can afford to have one stay-at-home parent, you shouldn't be breeding.

And if that would lead to the birthrate plummeting to nil, that's A-OK with me.

by Anonymousreply 273August 10, 2020 12:56 PM

Not to mention the wasted financial effort in parents of a certain age attempting to conceive.

I also don’t get why some women use donor eggs...the child is not yours genetically so why go through all the drama of childbirth? Can someone explain this?

by Anonymousreply 274August 10, 2020 1:14 PM

If it were up to me, I'd outlaw fertility treatments.

There are too damn many humans already and too many existing children in need of loving homes, we don't need to put public resources into helping more breeding.

by Anonymousreply 275August 10, 2020 3:34 PM

But not everyone uses public resources in terms of fertility treatment r275 ie private clinics

by Anonymousreply 276August 10, 2020 3:50 PM

^^ they may not want the mother they’re financed to carry the baby to term to change her mind and keep the child... as has happened.

They may also see the 9 months as a bonding process with the wee little angel.

by Anonymousreply 277August 10, 2020 3:56 PM

But they do spend a good amount of personal income r276. Money that could be better spent somewhere else.

by Anonymousreply 278August 10, 2020 3:57 PM

Sorry, R277 was in response to

[quote]r274 I also don’t get why some women use donor eggs...the child is not yours genetically so why go through all the drama of childbirth? Can someone explain this?

by Anonymousreply 279August 10, 2020 6:36 PM

7th Heaven explains why you should never want kids

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 280August 10, 2020 7:08 PM

I just hurled a stream of expletives because I have to reschedule a conference call for my team. I definitely don't have the patience for kids.

by Anonymousreply 281August 10, 2020 7:17 PM

I have moments now and then when I feel a little sad and think perhaps I should have had kids (I'm still young enough to get that done, too).

Then I get together with my sister and my two bratty nephews, and it seems so silly that I would ever feel that way. Toddlers in particular are a total nightmare.

by Anonymousreply 282August 10, 2020 7:18 PM

[quote] I just hurled a stream of expletives because I have to reschedule a conference call for my team.

Your "team"? That sounds like my old job. I always hated when they called us a "team." Sounded so corporate.

by Anonymousreply 283August 10, 2020 10:36 PM

I love my nephew, but I don’t regret not having kids myself, because I’ve inherited some really fucked up genes from my late father [e.g. dyspraxia, non-24-hour Circadian rhythm etc].

It would have been too fucking cruel to willingly pass on such genes to a kid.

by Anonymousreply 284August 10, 2020 10:49 PM

My "children in potentia" dodged a real bullet when I decided early on that I was never going to have them. No, I don't regret that decision. In fact, as I've gotten older I've become even more convinced that I would be a rotten parent.

I've got plenty of nieces and nephews from my four brothers and sisters. I'm fine with letting them "carry on the family name."

by Anonymousreply 285August 10, 2020 10:59 PM

That's the thing I noticed on this thread--a lot of you have many siblings.

There's a lot more pressure on us only children (or only surviving children).

by Anonymousreply 286August 10, 2020 11:50 PM

R286 I'm a surviving child and I'm very grateful my brother had a kid before his accident.

by Anonymousreply 287August 10, 2020 11:51 PM

R287, sorry to hear about your brother. My brother is alive, but had pediatric cancer and is sterile.

by Anonymousreply 288August 11, 2020 12:06 AM

R288 thanks. I'm at peace with it but I'm very grateful that I have a nephew. My mom is a better grandma than I would be a parent.

by Anonymousreply 289August 11, 2020 12:07 AM

I don't regret not having kids now (38, frau) but feel like I might in another decade or so.

by Anonymousreply 290August 11, 2020 12:08 AM

Children would only get in the way of our erotic lifestyles.

by Anonymousreply 291August 11, 2020 12:22 AM

Not being a babysitter for 18 years? What’s to regret?

by Anonymousreply 292August 11, 2020 12:28 AM

Grateful my younger sister had kids so I was off the hook. The parental pressure is no joke. Before she got pregnant I could tell my parents were panicking about having 2 childless freaks for kids.

It just never stops. Having kids isn’t enough. Then you want grandkids on top of kids. The breeding just continues.

My single female friend had a kid in her 40s. I know she did it because she was lonely. But guess what? She’s just as lonely now if not more lonely. It doesn’t seem like having kids solves the loneliness problem.

by Anonymousreply 293August 11, 2020 3:26 AM

Of course not. I just bought most of them!!

by Anonymousreply 294August 11, 2020 3:29 AM

I also feel bad that my mother has three kids and no grandkids. I'm an introverted lesbian, and I don't want kids. My mother has hinted about my using a sperm bank, but I'm not the maternal type, and it wouldn't be fair to create a person just so my mom can be a grandma. (My mother would love an adopted child just as much, but adopting is even more difficult than getting knocked up.) My brother (whom I believe is on the ASD spectrum) has a partner, but she is past her childbearing years. And my other brother, who was most likely to produce a grandkid (by accident) had a cancerous tumor removed last year. He actually wanted kids someday, but now he lives in terror that the cancer will come back. It might not be fair for him to have a kid who would have to live with that fear, too.

My mom has two nephews that will carry on her parents' genes, and my dad has nieces who will carry on his parents' genes (though he doesn't care about that type of thing). Fortunately, my mom also has some kind neighbors with young children that visit her and bring her gifts. I think it's hard for people in their 60s who have kids but no grandparents. It seems like everyone in their 60s is grand baby-obssessed, based on my local visits to a hair salon and a heart doctor's office.

by Anonymousreply 295August 11, 2020 3:43 AM

R295, maybe a partner will like having a kid?

by Anonymousreply 296August 11, 2020 3:45 AM

OP, you're a man. You don't have a hard deadline of your early forties to have kids. Trump was having kids well into his sixties.

If you're concerned, freeze your sperm now (not that expensive, and can be stored for 10+ years) before its quality declines as you age. Then, when you're approaching 50 if you decide you really really want kids, find some desperate mid-30s frau and make her an offer she won't refuse, then co-parent with her.

Assuming you are reasonably well-off, keep yourself healthy, and live in a first-world country, 80 or so is a reasonable life expectancy for you, so you needn't worry about dying before the kid is out of high school.

by Anonymousreply 297August 11, 2020 3:57 AM

re: adoption. I sometimes read adult adoptee blogs out of morbid curiosity. It's striking how many adopted people out there *hate* the institution of adoption and feel that their adoptions caused them lifelong trauma (especially kids adopted internationally). I'm not sure that your potential adopted child will feel you did it any good.

The US is rather unusual in that a lot of adoptions still happen there: in many other countries they have been reduced sharply as society has come to understand that kids should be removed from their birth parents really only as a very last resort.

by Anonymousreply 298August 11, 2020 3:59 AM

No kid wants a 70 year old parent at their high school graduation, and losing a parent before you reach 25 is huge. Don’t be selfish and procreate late just because you can.

by Anonymousreply 299August 11, 2020 10:55 AM

R298 Adoption is a really tragic Catch-22. Usually it’s kids taken at a young age from unsuitable parents who likely have inherited disease or syndromes (FAS is a very common one) or trauma, placed with relatively functional people who aim to create a peaceful normal family life. Even on paper that is rarely going to go well.

For every adoption success story, there are dozens if not a hundred others that are abject failures. I knew adopted kids growing up who despised and abused the people who took them in, decent kind people who opened their home and shared their name. Sadly some things just cannot be fixed with love, care and attention. My own father was put into foster care as a preteen, and ran away from his nice law-abiding foster parents multiple times as well as bringing trouble from his petty crime forays to their doorstep.

Were I 100% guaranteed to get a baby who had not been adversely affected by the circumstances that put her into care, then I’d consider adopting. As it is, I don’t have the resources or the resilience to cope with the raising of a sick or damaged or criminally-minded hperson who will probably grow to hate me. It’s an upsetting thing to admit but it’s the reality.

It would be better if there were safer, less cruel, more community-centric group-homes for these type of kids - not the ‘dumping grounds’ of abuse we hear about.

by Anonymousreply 300August 11, 2020 12:41 PM

[quote] My single female friend had a kid in her 40s. I know she did it because she was lonely. But guess what? She’s just as lonely now.

R293 that’s a shame. Could you tell us any more on that? I’m interested to know how her situation transpired the way it did.

by Anonymousreply 301August 11, 2020 12:43 PM

I would like to know if the single friend is straight or lesbian? How old is the kid? And did she continue to look for a partner or spouse, or did she stop?

by Anonymousreply 302August 11, 2020 1:02 PM

Single friend is straight. Used fertility treatments (and a donor) and had a kid at 42. Gave up trying to find a partner. They live in the Midwest. Nice house. Friend has a good job and a nanny.

Kid is 3 now. She loves the kid and the kid is very sweet (and very cute) but my friend is just as lonely as she was before the kid. Like her issues didn’t lessen after the kid - if anything they got more intense because now in addition to everything else she just worries about the kid.

The kid doesn’t provide adult conversation. Friend still feels isolated. It’s hard making friends with other parents (your social anxiety stuff doesn’t magically disappear once you’re a parent). Also now she worries the kid doesn’t have a father. And worries about her own health more.

It’s been eye-opening. She’s actually a really good mother from what I can see - the kid is caring and polite and smart and seems very kind. Friend reads lots of parenting stuff and takes it seriously.

But it has NOT made her any happier. Who knows if this changes as the kid gets older? I think it stays hard but maybe other parents in this thread can weigh in?

I’ll stick with pets?

by Anonymousreply 303August 11, 2020 2:53 PM

R303, she sounds like exactly the sort of person who'll try to make her kid into a "best friend" or "life partner", when he gets older.

That never ends well if the kid is sane, she'll end up like my former co-worker who complained that she and her 14-year-old son "Didn't use to need anybody else", that her own family were dysfunctional and her ex-husband was a dirtbag and she didn't need friends as long as she had Junior... but now he wants to spend time with HIS friends and it's turning her life upside-down. All said with a complete lack of awareness of how dysfunctional it is to smother your kid.

by Anonymousreply 304August 11, 2020 8:42 PM

True also the kid tends to get parentified. Like will likely start comforting her about her loneliness and how it’s okay don’t worry etc.

I can see that dynamic developing.

by Anonymousreply 305August 11, 2020 9:21 PM

R303, thank you for telling us more.

Your single friend might be me in four years--except that I am lesbian and totally without social anxiety.

What I am doing right now--and maybe she could do, too--is attending non-crazy churches and reform synagogues to find a nice community that has a good children's program, so if I do have a baby, she or he can grow up attached to a few different communities. Also, I know a lot of lesbian, later-in-life mother groups. (Perhaps she should try to find one: the ones in my community, and I suspect hers, always welcome straight allies and their families.) And, aside from the lesbian thing, they fit her profile (stable, older, etc) and maybe less challenging for her social anxiety because she doesn't have to contend with any dating possibilities in the group.

I always think of Rhett Butler--and how once he has Bonnie Blue, he starts getting involved in civics and social groups, and donating to the kind of community structure that he had rebelled from when he was a young guy.

by Anonymousreply 306August 12, 2020 1:43 AM

I'll stick with this child:

Undivided love and attention, loyal, attentive and won't contest my will.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 307August 12, 2020 7:38 AM

I wish someone had explained to me 25 years ago the importance of having children so you have someone to take care of you when you get old. I took care of my mother in her final years and could see what a horrific nightmare it will be without having someone to protect and take care of you. I dread reaching that state.

by Anonymousreply 308August 12, 2020 7:51 AM

R308 There are so many people who don't participate in the care of their parents when they get older. Nothing is a guarantee.

by Anonymousreply 309August 12, 2020 8:26 AM

R309 exactly. Plus living to old age can be a crapshoot, anyway - knock on wood, but who’s to say you don’t get cancer or fall into a coma or die in an accident well before you even reach retirement? Who’s to say the current global situation won’t turn into The Walking Dead, and you won’t need to worry about a pension or elder care anymore given that you’ll get shot or you’ll starve or your face will get chewed off? Right now, it seems like a mad thing for anyone under age 60 to worry about old age at all.

If you’re only bothering to raise and support a child for a hypothetical trade-off of emotional labour some twenty, thirty, forty years into the future, then not only are you a manipulative selfish prick but you’re also gambling your guaranteed present for an unforseen indeterminate future.

by Anonymousreply 310August 12, 2020 1:05 PM

Agree with r310 in theory but still find it anxiety provoking to get old without having children to take care of you. Especially when you’ve acted as that caretaker for your own parents/grandparents. That’s the big mindf*ck of it all. We often have the ability to act as caretakers for our parents because we don’t have kids but then we are left without the people to care for us.

Oh well.

by Anonymousreply 311August 12, 2020 5:28 PM

R311 We're going to have service robots that can act as caretakers for us in 30 years, so don't worry!

by Anonymousreply 312August 12, 2020 5:53 PM

If you don’t have children you will be abused by strangers in your old age and will die alone.

by Anonymousreply 313August 12, 2020 6:01 PM

I've always said that the fastest and most comprehensive way I could think of to ruin my life would be to bring children into it. I'm a professional classical musician. I love my work, love to travel the world, and love not being tied down. I'm a jolly good uncle, and that's enough for me.

Then, about 15 years ago, I decided to drive across several states to make a surprise visit to see my estranged sister, after she had not been returning anyone's phone calls for about a year and a half. She lived in a rural farming community, pretty isolated from everyone. Upon arrival, I was horrified to find that she and her husband were in the throes of meth addiction. This had been going on for a couple of years already, and apparently no one in my family had attempted to intervene. Their young children (ranging from 4 to 13 years old) had been taken out of school, were miserable and living in shit and squalor. There were even dead pets on the ground out in the yard. Everything I saw there ripped my heart up and made me sick to my stomach. I decided to call the local office of child protective services and make a formal report.

Long story short, though they were unaware (and still have no idea) that I was the one who reported them to the CPS, it got the ball rolling. I wound up as the legal guardian of all five of the children for a year while my sister and her husband divorced and went through rehab to get them back. And I actually loved it. They were always really good kids, oddly mature (in a somber sense) for their ages. They were withdrawn and depressed for a couple of weeks at first, but eventually they opened up and learned to enjoy themselves, and I encouraged them every day to look forward to reuniting with their mom, that she loved them and was fixing all the bad stuff. I taught them how to play some musical instruments, bought them art supplies, etc., and we would do various fun projects together around the table after dinner. I enjoyed teaching the eldest two how to cook, and all of them started school (and kindergarten) on time that fall.

I miss those kids. But it was a truly wonderful thing to see my sister again, having come out of that nightmare and having turned her life around; she has since completed her education and joined the workforce. She's remarried now, is a successful nurse, and the kids are all well-adjusted adults.

by Anonymousreply 314August 12, 2020 6:32 PM

R313 most people who are abused in nursing homes probably have children.

Doesn’t prevent it. Sadly.

by Anonymousreply 315August 12, 2020 7:30 PM

My parents had four kids and all but maybe one of us have said we will not be taking care of them when they can no longer do it. That's what happens when you're abusive assholes. My parents are lucky any of us still speak to them after the shit they pulled.

Me? I don't care that I won't have anyone taking care of me IF I get to a place where I can't anymore. I've decided to off myself before that could happen. What's the point of staying alive if you can't take care of yourself? We live too long now. No one should be alive after say, 85 years old. It's not living at that point.

by Anonymousreply 316August 12, 2020 9:58 PM

r316 May I ask what they did if you don't mind me asking?

by Anonymousreply 317August 12, 2020 10:05 PM

R313 Let me note that sometimes they do have children, but the conditions of the elderly don’t allow for their children to take care of them anymore. For example, if they are staying with their children, and let’s assume they have Alzheimer’s, they may get to a point where they can’t be trusted to cook. Maybe they forget food is cooking, it burns and starts a fire. My mom told me that she’d always remember (her rebuttal) when my sister and bil decided they would put her in a home.

by Anonymousreply 318August 12, 2020 10:06 PM

Some selfish people are decent parents in the sense they see the kids as extensions of themselves so they are patient and sacrificing towards their kids. But they do model selfishness in general.

I know some assholes who only care about money, status and living an unexamined life playing golf, eating out, watching Netflix and going on vacation. They love their kids but they don’t donate to charity or care about other humans or the planet.

I know plenty of fraus whose kids get a school bus but they drive them to school and then drive around all day shopping, buying coffee and then green juices and then lunch and then they go get the beauty treatment du jour (waxed, colored, cut, manicured, massaged) . Then after yoga time, they pick up the kids, order food and it’s online shopping and driving the kids to play dates and lessons until the food is delivered or they eat at the Club and then it’s Netflix time. (Before Covid). The car they drive is of utmost importance as is their zip code and the Clubs (Country, Yacht, etc) to which they belong. The women can be butt ugly but they must be superficial and “in shape”.

They are patient and loving and spend time plenty of time with the kids. The kids need them and it gives the mothers attention and importance.

These are the people who don’t want to pay taxes and only care about their own. Most of my relatives are like this.

If you don’t have kids, you’re crazy. If you’re interested in creativity or ideas, you’re crazy and you think too much. It’s all about the kids. The kids make life worth living. The kids are what matters. The kids love you like nobody else will.

by Anonymousreply 319August 13, 2020 4:44 AM

God no. That was one mistake I did not make.

by Anonymousreply 320August 13, 2020 3:00 PM

[quote] I wish someone had explained to me 25 years ago the importance of having children so you have someone to take care of you when you get old.

People say that all the time. But young people don't listen. No one thinks of being old and frail with diminished capacities when they're 25.

by Anonymousreply 321August 13, 2020 3:34 PM

Even if you have a kid who wants to take care of you, who is to say they can afford to? How many people on the planet are living paycheck to paycheck? Can they afford elder care? Can they afford time off to do it themselves?

by Anonymousreply 322August 13, 2020 8:11 PM

Yes it’s based on a ton of assumptions about the adult child being willing AND able to care for you in old age.

Increases your odds by having a kid obviously but no guarantees.

by Anonymousreply 323August 13, 2020 8:15 PM

It’s an essential part of the social contract that the children take care of elderly parents.

by Anonymousreply 324August 14, 2020 5:08 PM

R324 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

by Anonymousreply 325August 14, 2020 5:24 PM

What I've seen is that half of my friends' children have been the light of their lives and the other half have been bitter disappointments. To me, that sounds like very poor odds for making a huge 18 year investment of time and resources. I personally do not have a positive emotional response to babies or small or young children as I do with cats. I know that I would be a very cold parent (though a very responsible one). It saddens me however that I have no one to leave my lovely treasures to; art, antiques, valuable books and paintings, collected over a lifetime....no nieces or nephews. My friends are the same age I am.

by Anonymousreply 326August 14, 2020 5:36 PM

R326 can I have your books?

And yeah, without a crystal ball...terrible odds. I can invest hundreds of thousands of dollars into this new person...or I can invest in me.

by Anonymousreply 327August 14, 2020 5:46 PM

No it seems to really do a number on most people. A few couples I know really handled it well and it seems like they were the better prepared ones who really truly wanted the experience of raiding a child. For most of the straights I know it kind of sucks the life out of them. It ruins marriages and destroys people’s looks.

by Anonymousreply 328August 14, 2020 6:03 PM

I used to be upset that because I was an only child, I wouldn't have any help taking care of my parents when they get old. But from what I've observed from friends and extended family members, it always falls on one person anyway. My loser cousin refused to take care of his parents, even though he has no family or responsibility and lives in his parents' basement. Meanwhile, his sister is taking care of both her parents with cancer and has a toddler to take care of. And you wonder why people think twice about having kids.

by Anonymousreply 329August 14, 2020 6:05 PM

I wish people would decide not to have kids more often. I feel like it’s a very big responsibility not to be taken lightly. Too many people just pop out kids they don’t properly care for and it’s heartbreaking. Also I can’t understand wanting more than one. I think it’s unfair To the child and for most people unrealistic. The cost and time required to properly raise a child is huge and even when you have two parents chances are these days both are working.

by Anonymousreply 330August 14, 2020 6:11 PM

Yes R329 it always does. Both my parents are from 3 child families and both of them single handedly cared for my grandparents while their siblings did nothing.

I just want to find a partner. The best marriages in my friend group are the ones that are childfree. Having children complicated things between couples (and that’s putting it kindly).

by Anonymousreply 331August 14, 2020 6:15 PM

Queen Victoria wrote: "You will find as the children grow up that as a rule children are a bitter disappointment - their greatest object being to do precisely what their parents do not wish and have anxiously tried to prevent."

This queen agrees with that Queen.

by Anonymousreply 332August 14, 2020 6:46 PM

>>>>My loser cousin refused to take care of his parents, even though he has no family or responsibility and lives in his parents' basement

Are you fucking kidding me? He lives in their basement and won't help?

by Anonymousreply 333August 14, 2020 6:53 PM

R326, I would also love to have your books.

I love antiques and vintage things. I just bought a Selectric.

Thank you

by Anonymousreply 334August 14, 2020 7:03 PM

R334 I believe I asked first

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 335August 14, 2020 7:07 PM

NO. I always disliked children, probably because I'm the oldest of four. But when I met my nieces as babies I fell in love - as an AUNT. When they were little, tweens, teens and now adults, we had a special relationship. I am so happy I'm not their mother. It's like when I visit friends who have pets, I love them, but I'm not getting one.

by Anonymousreply 336August 14, 2020 7:12 PM

R335, I know, but it's like Miss America: if you are unable to fulfill your duties, I am available.

And I can send R326 a typewritten letter to prove it.

by Anonymousreply 337August 14, 2020 7:13 PM

How nice, people who have an interest in fine things. Yes, the books are quite valuable; art books that were expensive at the time of purchase and now more so as they are out of print, mostly about Art Nouveau, decorative arts and architecture, plus a lot of illustrated antiquarian books.

Collection of Loetz glass, Art Nouveau silver, antique French clocks, Victorian paintings, gold watches...

Ah well, shrouds do not have pockets, hearses do not have luggage racks and so all to be sold and proceeds to go to charities, mainly for cat welfare.

by Anonymousreply 338August 14, 2020 7:18 PM

I have been looking for a copy of Louise-Catherine Breslau Et Ses Amis for years.

by Anonymousreply 339August 14, 2020 7:26 PM

[quote] Are you fucking kidding me? He lives in their basement and won't help?

Yes, and his sister wasn't living close to them when their parents got sick. She had to uproot her family and move back just to take care of them. Meanwhile, he's been living in that basement for at least a decade.

by Anonymousreply 340August 14, 2020 7:38 PM

Nope, not at all. Several friends with kids told me that having children pretty much killed their sex lives.

by Anonymousreply 341August 14, 2020 7:42 PM

DL has always had an inordinate number of people who are bitter about their childhood and their parents, so it’s views are not going to be reflective of society. I include myself in that bitter group, but have reached an age where I’ve gotten past it.

by Anonymousreply 342August 14, 2020 7:46 PM

sorry, “its views”.

by Anonymousreply 343August 14, 2020 7:48 PM

My parents wanted their atheistic, gay son to pray the gay away. They also didn’t like the fact he became a radio disc jockey, playing the devil’s music. They always liked my perfect sister better, so she was really the perfect person to take care of them when they both got Alzheimer’s. You don’t know how your kids are going to turn out. Surprise!

by Anonymousreply 344August 14, 2020 8:49 PM

I was shocked when I asked my mother and she said she did NOT regret having children. My father was a drunken deadbeat so he doesn't count. But I see her not being able to relate to her grandchildren now just as she was an "absent" mother to us. I don't get it.

by Anonymousreply 345August 14, 2020 11:22 PM

Last summer I took a last minute trip to London for a long weekend. Beats diapers.

by Anonymousreply 346August 14, 2020 11:25 PM

" I include myself in that bitter group, but have reached an age where I’ve gotten past it. "

Well so have I, the life I have now is the life I've made for myself as an independent adult, and I no longer consider myself to be a product of my abusive upbringing. I am as much master of my fate and captain of my soul as anyone!

But that doesn't mean I'm the sort of person who'd make a good parent, and it sure as hell doesn't mean that I want to go back into the maelstrom of family life. I've had enough of that shit.

by Anonymousreply 347August 15, 2020 5:04 AM

I had kids and I couldn't believe how easy parenting truly is, after all the bullshit my parents and grandparents tried to feed me. Talmbout "wait until you have kids of YOUR own". Bye. They're easy to keep entertained, easily impressed and tractable so you can teach them wrong or right just like that. It didn't take serious paper to sustain them and meet their needs, it's just that everybody is an anxiety-driven consumer with no creativity, patience or resourcefulness.

My pregnancies didn't blow out my cooch or ruin my body like unfortunate people said would surely happen, either. Both got better because I took good care of myself, slept well, drank plenty of ice water and herbal tea and ate my typical healthy vegetarian diet that I've stuck to since childhood. I made it out without a stretch marks or difficult, long labor. I had my kids at home and very easily. They were all born within seconds and didn't even have umbilical cords. There was no blood, gore, screaming, shit, placenta or broken water like other people guaranteed there would be.

Don't listen to dumpy, downtrodden people's woes and regrets about becoming parents. I ignored the status quo and it really benefitted my kids and I. They were walking and talking well before their first year, too. Everything was all a snap and I never once needed a babysitter or help from relatives.

by Anonymousreply 348August 15, 2020 5:23 AM

Long story short, I retained my identity, stayed the same person as before I had kids. Rather than sacrificing my comfort or happiness, I shared both with my kids and their dad. I took them to work with me and they weren't disruptive at all, even as infants I explained my work tasks to them and gave them things to do and keep themselves occupied all day. I got them into good dance/electronica and computer science right away, too.

I was never a die-hard partier, truth be told, so I didn't have that to miss nor fondly look back on. I'm a responsible 420, now equipped with a medicinal card. My social life did not wither and die as others guaranteed it would. Most of my friends* love my kids because they're cultured, athletic, well-adjusted cute blondes and redheads.

* (The rest are jealous!)

I once felt like a lot of you did, though. I relied on others' miscalculations of how having a family should or would be, that, combined with my own family's child-rearing failures almost effectively prevented me from procreating. I worried my life would end at the point of conception, for all intents and purposes. Rather, life improved and I continued to succeed professionally, financially, romantically (with their increasingly-hot dad)and academically because I kept going back to school and earning degrees, just because I could and I did well therefore additional college pursuits were free.

by Anonymousreply 349August 15, 2020 6:07 AM

Yes.

by Anonymousreply 350August 15, 2020 6:12 AM

Gays are uncles, not fathers.

by Anonymousreply 351August 15, 2020 6:27 AM

[quote] Queen Victoria wrote: "You will find as the children grow up that as a rule children are a bitter disappointment - their greatest object being to do precisely what their parents do not wish and have anxiously tried to prevent."

Queen Victoria married her first cousin and had nine, yes, 9 children. Probably taken care of by 18 governesses. No wonder they went wild. Too many to keep track of.

by Anonymousreply 352August 15, 2020 7:50 AM

[quote] Long story short

Too late, R349 / R348. You sound like you're bragging and overly proud of yourself.

by Anonymousreply 353August 15, 2020 7:53 AM

lol, r348 and r349

You sly, entertaining thing.

by Anonymousreply 354August 15, 2020 12:06 PM

Nah, I have a nephew and 2 nieces who I am close to. Sometimes I wonder what will happen if I am old and alone one day...sure, now I am ok cuz I am a 42-year old top and can get a partner, but my dick will get soft one day and I don't wanna be alone in some nursing home. I occasionally think about it when I pass an orphanage here in Romania.

I also know that IF I had REALLY wanted kids I could have adopted with my late partner or just have them with a nice woman here who would want to marry and have a nice life in the US and let me do my thing. Then, I think how fair is that to me, the kids, and her and what if I meet the right man and am married with kids?

by Anonymousreply 355August 15, 2020 12:16 PM

So you're an American living in Romania?

Why?

by Anonymousreply 356August 15, 2020 12:49 PM

They ruin your sex life

by Anonymousreply 357August 15, 2020 2:14 PM

I’m realizing that most people don’t want children, they want BABIES. The ones that can’t walk or talk or be bad. The ones families and strangers alike coo over and say how beautiful they are. Too young to question a parent’s actions. When they start to form into beings that walk and talk and think for themselves and start acting out, the romance is over.

by Anonymousreply 358August 15, 2020 2:15 PM

R358 too true. It’s especially common and sad between fathers & daughters in hetero families, as I can attest.

My father couldn’t get enough of me when I was little - he was a work-at-home dad while my mum was sick in hospital with my little sister, and we basically shared a three-year vacation/playtime. He’s a big kid himself (and on the same part of the spectrum as me, I believe) so we had fun. Thankfully my mum recovered, and things were good between us all even though we didn’t have a lot of money and we lived in a shack. Then I started school, and to support us all and get us away from a dangerous living situation (criminal trashy family, long story) my dad was forced to get a ‘real job’ (i.e. stressful (60-hour+ workweek with commutes).

After I learned to read and speak (precociously and often, at that), and dad was seperste from his family and spending much of his time tired and miserable and resentful, our relationship crumbled and my dad became a covert misogynist. It hurts to think about, but he blames me and my mother for everything that happened to change our initial circumstances.

We grew further apart to the point that we just give each other a wide berth, now. We lived in the same house for 18 years, yet he didn’t show up to my school events or my graduation, and never bothered to meet or talk to any of my friends (they always said they were scared of him). He doesn’t know what I studied at College, and he frequently forgets my birthday. He has humiliated my verbally at holiday get-togethers more than once. He has never once given me a word of encouragement, or asked how my life & career are going. He doesn’t even know I’m a lesbian, or that I had a major depressive/psychotic breakdown several years ago.

My folks are still happy (enough) together and I still keep in touch with them, but I feel I can’t ever talk to my father honestly or on a real emotional level about anything beyond football scores or the radio or what my mum made for dinner. He doesn’t seem to want to know me as an adult, like he didn’t want to know me as a teen girl. There’s nothing there, and it’s upsetting.

He’s not the type who’d ever consent to therapy or counselling, so there’s no way to fix it, either. Sometimes it feels like I had a father as a kid who passed away or disappeared, to be replaced when I turned 12 by a guy dating my mum who is wearing his skin and speaking with his voice.

by Anonymousreply 359August 15, 2020 2:32 PM

R356 - company sent me here for a 2 year project. It's pretty cool.

by Anonymousreply 360August 15, 2020 2:35 PM

R360, it's interesting.

If you ever feel like sharing some of your observations, I (for one, but there are many) would love to read them.

by Anonymousreply 361August 15, 2020 2:48 PM

I wouldn't.

by Anonymousreply 362August 15, 2020 3:15 PM

R361 - I have shared them a lot în variohs threads and will continue to do so.

by Anonymousreply 363August 15, 2020 4:20 PM

R359....here’s an electronic hug for you...scars that parents inflict, intentionally or otherwise, never go away.

by Anonymousreply 364August 15, 2020 4:51 PM

R353, it was actually pretty matter-of-fact and to the point, unless your envy makes you easily-triggered.

There wasn't anything sanctimonious going on, other than maybe thinking I was better for not being a worrisome consumerist and asking the proverbial village to help raise my kids.

No apologies.

by Anonymousreply 365August 15, 2020 6:57 PM

I never had time for such things.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 366August 15, 2020 8:49 PM

DopeFly, 0/10.

by Anonymousreply 367August 16, 2020 1:17 AM

Why do you assume I don't have children, OP?

I have two lovely daughters, Intelligencia and Brainella. They are as brilliant as I am.

by Anonymousreply 368August 16, 2020 1:38 AM

Toiling crybaby @ r367

At least r368 has a sense of humor

by Anonymousreply 369August 16, 2020 2:04 AM

Saying 0/10 is crying? Okay.

by Anonymousreply 370August 16, 2020 2:53 AM

I have a childfree female cousin whose mother was always giving her shit. During one conversation, her mother said snottily “Accidents happen.” My cousin told her “That’s what abortions are for.” Her mother became hysterical and asked if she would “really kill my grandbaby”? My cousin looked at her and said “I would have an abortion and you would never know.”

They didn’t speak for a year, but when they finally started talking again, her mother never brought up the idea of my cousin having a baby again.

My cousin did in fact have an abortion and her mother never knew about it, and had it prior to that conversation. Her mother is so dense that she never considered the possibility that my cousin had already had one.

by Anonymousreply 371August 16, 2020 3:10 AM

"It was an ABORTION! An ABORTION, Mother! Just like our relationship is an abortion! Something that's unholy and evil! I didn't want your grandchild, Mother! I wouldn't bring a grandchild of yours into this world! It was an ABORTION, Mother! It was a son! A son! And I had it killed because this must all end!"

by Anonymousreply 372August 16, 2020 3:21 AM

"I’m realizing that most people don’t want children, they want BABIES. The ones that can’t walk or talk or be bad."

I think that's true, although some people actually do want small children or children up to grade-school age, as long as they're cute and well-behaved. But yes, I think that people love babies and (in some cases) small children fiercely, up to the point that they think they'd die to protect their children, and that love fades as the child becomes a person rather than a blank slate. Once the child is old enough to disappoint, that fierce love fades away, I've seen it a bazillion time.

Of course, in healthy families with good interrelationships, that baby love gradually evolves into familial love, and the love between parent and child takes new forms as the child grows and the parent ages. But honestly, I don't see that happen a lot, my parents got sick of me and my siblings pretty early in the game, and I see more of that than i do evolving love. Frankly, too many parents seem to hate their kids (and vice versa), and more seem to be desperately clinging to the remnants of love, hoping against hope that someday, the family members will actually love each other again. Seriously, I think that's how most families function, they stick together and try not to rock the boat, and hope that someday love will outweigh all the resentment.

by Anonymousreply 373August 16, 2020 6:55 AM

Sometimes. But ultimately, I’ve always had mixed feelings about it.

by Anonymousreply 374August 16, 2020 7:04 AM

Can I have this one?

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 375August 16, 2020 7:04 AM

I love this one.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 376August 16, 2020 7:28 AM

R 348 You had children but no placenta, amniotic fluid or umbilical cords? Are you an alien?

by Anonymousreply 377August 16, 2020 2:17 PM

I never wanted kids. I'm not far from 50 and can barely take care of my own stuff.....I respect parents who are good parents, but it's a shit ton of work and I was never interested.

Most guys I know closer to my age either never wanted kids, or are men who came out later in life and had their kids while in a hetero marriage.

Gay men wanting to adopt or have a surrogate kid, though.....that seems to be a generational thing. Two guys I know very vaguely (acquaintances) are 35 and adopted a kid maybe 5 years ago. They were still in the clubs....first they were gung ho in the "bear" community, then suddenly they started doing drag.

Just seems weird to me that those guys were still doing all those things, but also raising a baby. I mean....maybe I'm being an old priss, because for younger parents of any age/gender/orientation, they seem to have no restrictions on where they'll take the little crotch droppings these days. Baby's First Drag Show?

by Anonymousreply 378August 16, 2020 2:33 PM

You just know that baby is going to be a professor at NYU one day.

by Anonymousreply 379August 16, 2020 3:26 PM

Has anyone not wanted kids because of the influence their own parents might have on the children? Teaching them religion and taking them to church? Trying to make sure they don’t exhibit any weak points they’ve found in you? Spoiling them to the point of breaking family rules?

by Anonymousreply 380August 16, 2020 3:27 PM

^^^ Not specifically values, but I did consider whether I would get emotional and social support from my family.

by Anonymousreply 381August 16, 2020 7:29 PM

R377, some of them were born with teeth, too.

I do have a lot more DNA than the average person, I'm 7 feet tall and I'm blue-tinted but not full-on blue skinned; I'm golden. I also do not menstruate and never have. There are definitely some oddities to be considered.

by Anonymousreply 382August 17, 2020 4:17 AM

I wonder what proportion of gay men of the younger generation will end up having kids via surrogacy. It does seem to be increasing quite significantly.

by Anonymousreply 383August 17, 2020 10:25 PM

Hard pass on the parental front.

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by Anonymousreply 384August 20, 2020 5:20 PM

I'm happy to be the one to end the cycle of abuse.

So, no.

by Anonymousreply 385August 20, 2020 5:24 PM

I am worried that I do have a kid out there. In my teens and in the late 80's, I fucked this girl who had a crush on me just to experiment and stopped hanging out with her after that. She tried to get a hold of me a few months later, left urgent messages for me to call her but I ghosted her.

by Anonymousreply 386August 20, 2020 5:28 PM

Why worried, R386? Aren't you interested to find out?

by Anonymousreply 387August 20, 2020 5:33 PM

Carol Burnett's daughter Erin is the prettier one, also the gay one. HOW come Carol's children are so fucked up?

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by Anonymousreply 388August 20, 2020 7:15 PM

Poor Carol. She got the oldest daughter off drugs as a teenager only to lose her to cancer at age 39. And now this. The youngest daughter hasn't seemed to cause much trouble, at least.

by Anonymousreply 389August 20, 2020 7:48 PM

Alcoholism/addiction seems to result often from a genetic predisposition, as Burnett has referenced. It must have been a recessive gene with her, or somehow she conquered it if she inherited the dominant gene.

My family has a long history of addiction going back at least several generations. That's yet another reason I chose not to procreate.

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by Anonymousreply 390August 20, 2020 11:46 PM

Sometimes I wonder what my kids would look like if I had them. But that’s it.

by Anonymousreply 391August 21, 2020 3:50 PM

I feel so lucky to have had parents who, despite being very traditional, never presumed to tell their children to have kids. "It's up to you. I think it would be a good idea but it's up to you." All of my cousins were badgered about having children. I remember a cousin a few weeks after getting married sitting at the table for a holiday and hearing every asshole adult (minus my parents) asking, "When? Are you at least trying? Before your parents die!" And finally my cousin said, "Want me to mount my wife here at the table? Stop it!"

I know my parents would have loved having grandkids, but the fact that all four kids didn't have any--they know why that is. They've changed a lot, to a miraculous degree; and we've grown out of our anger about our childhood, and now it's just four adult siblings who are enjoying our lives, with partners and animals and a wide range of creative interests that I can't imagine ever exhausting the pleasures of.

by Anonymousreply 392August 21, 2020 5:57 PM

R386 - very ugly behavior. If you fucked and have a kid, man up to it...she didn't have the kid alone, assuming she had one.

by Anonymousreply 393August 22, 2020 7:31 AM

A dear friend of mine just told me that her MIL just paid cash for a house for her and her husband. They are mid-30s, as am I. My parents have never been able to help me to that degree, and it's unlikely I will have the means to do that for a potential child. Hell, I'm saving for a down payment of my own.

by Anonymousreply 394August 22, 2020 6:23 PM

[quote] And finally my cousin said, "Want me to mount my wife here at the table? Stop it!"

That's funny, R392. Cousin must have been sick of the pressure.

by Anonymousreply 395August 22, 2020 6:26 PM

I can't stand noise, mess, or destruction, so children are not a good fit for me.

by Anonymousreply 396August 22, 2020 6:55 PM

R386 is a POS.

You'd know whether or not you got her pregnant. Sounds like you came in her and know damn well what those *urgent phone calls" were about.

by Anonymousreply 397August 23, 2020 5:32 AM

R386 You really are a jerk. How could you post something like this in such a blasé manner. Imagine how she must have felt.

And if you do have a child(ren), imagine how they may feel if they know about you.

by Anonymousreply 398August 24, 2020 1:41 AM

I look at Tuc Watkins instagram and feel NOTHING. So no.

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by Anonymousreply 399August 24, 2020 2:01 AM

Oh for God's sake. If R386 had a kid out there, he'd have been dragged into court long ago.

Even in the dark ages of the 1980s, women had better options than to slink away in shame and raise a fatherless baby.

by Anonymousreply 400August 24, 2020 3:46 AM

[quote] he'd have been dragged into court long ago.

She may have decided that sharing custody wasn't worth the child support.

by Anonymousreply 401August 24, 2020 3:58 AM

Well, if he had a kid, then the kid would have showed up on his doorstep (on in his inbox) by now courtesy of the ancestry websites. Even if R386 didn't submit a DNA sample himself, then he probably has a couple of cousins (and once-removed cousins) and second cousins who have submitted DNA, and it won't be too hard to put the pieces of the puzzle together.

by Anonymousreply 402August 24, 2020 4:21 AM

FUCK NO!

by Anonymousreply 403August 24, 2020 4:33 AM

[quote] a bunch of the gay guys I used to be friends with in my early twenties have since settled down with partners/husbands and procured themselves some babies.

It doesn't necessarily mean they're happy. Lots of people have children for the wrong reasons ...

-They've been conditioned to think that's what you do "to be normal" -Out of fear -Out of pressure from someone who wants them way more than they do, so they acquiesce to "preserve" the relationship

If you feel any regret, consider foster parenting. That will help clarify things for you.

by Anonymousreply 404August 24, 2020 4:38 AM

r386 did the right thing and not trust her. The calls were probably a typical shakedown for money. Men need to play it smart.

by Anonymousreply 405August 24, 2020 7:39 AM

R405 is an odious woman, thirsty for male acknowledgement and kudos

by Anonymousreply 406August 24, 2020 9:55 AM

Je ne regrette rien!

by Anonymousreply 407February 3, 2021 1:33 AM

I was married for 11 years. I am father, to now, 2 absolutely wonderful women. Being a dad was the most wonderful experience. My ex and I, regardless of our married relationship, excelled and cooperated/coordinated in raising our daughters. I am so grateful to have had the experience. Now, just waiting to be grandad.

by Anonymousreply 408February 3, 2021 8:31 AM

I don't mind answering the question but would love to see a trend of asking parents if they regret having children. I don't think the majority do, but the question would give them the experience I have had my whole adult life of being asked if I have a profound regret about a personal decision that doesn't affect the person asking. It would give the majority of people the experience of the implication that maybe I would or should regret a decision that I am most qualified to make. It would give the majority of people the experience that those of us without children have of the need some people have to communicate "I don't get you; explain yourself." I think it would result in a little more consideration about what casual conversation really justifies. I appreciate the curiosity and object to only when I think it's based on the questioner's inability or unwillingness to consider a different point of view.

by Anonymousreply 409February 3, 2021 2:24 PM

Going by the trends it increasingly seems that this is a question that fewer gay men will be asking themselves as they are electing to have children. On the flip side I wonder how many of them will end up regretting having children and whether or not that percentage is higher or lower than for straight parents?

by Anonymousreply 410June 6, 2021 1:16 AM

Nope.

by Anonymousreply 411June 6, 2021 1:48 AM

"I don't mind answering the question but would love to see a trend of asking parents if they regret having children. I don't think the majority do, but the question would give them the experience I have had my whole adult life of being asked if I have a profound regret about a personal decision that doesn't affect the person asking. It would give the majority of people the experience of the implication that maybe I would or should regret a decision that I am most qualified to make."

Well said!

Except that a lot of straight people didn't officially decide to have children, they had "accidents".

by Anonymousreply 412June 6, 2021 2:16 AM

This is an old thread, but I will chime in to say that almost everyone in my family is obese, including me. I struggled my entire life with my weight and still do and one of the main things I'm grateful for is that I'm a lesbian because getting pregnant was never something I had to worry about. Even IF I had wanted kids (and I never did) I wouldn't have had them because I knew they would end up fat and I wouldn't wish that on a kid. My obese younger brother had two kids and both are huge. I feel so bad for them knowing what struggles are going to come for them. There have been many moments in my life where I've contemplated suicide because of my weight (yes, I've lost and gained over 100 lbs in the past so I know how difficult it is to lose it and how easy it is to gain it all back). I honestly would rather have been an alcoholic or drug addict if I had been been given a choice between those and being fat. And yes, fat is a choice but it's also really fucking hard for anyone in my family to lose the weight and keep it off. My brother just had weight loss surgery and I've thought about it, but I'm just exercising and watching my food intake. But I thank the gods I didn't have kids.

by Anonymousreply 413June 6, 2021 2:39 AM

r413 Good post . You sound like a thoughtful sensitive soul.

by Anonymousreply 414June 6, 2021 2:29 PM
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