THEATRE GOSSIP #397 - The First Follies-Free Thread Edition!

Christian Borle may have a hot body, but if my dog had a face like his, I'd shave its behind and teach it to walk backwards.

I literally just watched the National Theater production of Follies last night and was surprised by how competent Imelda Staunton was with singing Losing My Mind, but how utterly unappealing she was on stage. She has a face like a garden gnome and is about 3 ft tall. She was acting like she was completely hopped up on sugar and was pulling faces left right and center. I had absolutely no sympathy for her character and just thought of her as nuts and annoying. I couldn't believe for a second that Ben would fuck her or even that Buddy would either. I did like the actor who played Ben though. Ron Raines was better, but this guy was a bit warmer and a bit more seductive in a way.

In fact, now that I think about it, why was the director letting the actors get away with so much over acting? The ghosts of both girls, not just Sally, were tearing at Ben's shirt begging him to love each of them, and then there was Sally screaming her head off at the end. Okay, there were stretches where things were fine, but then it would start to feel like a competition to see who could pull focus and be the most dramatic presence on stage.

Honestly, I thought the Broadway Revival was better, with sharper focus and a stronger cast. I don't see how anyone can match Jan Maxwell as Phyllis. She was just sublime.

Christian Borle is a Buddy.

Ron Raines was better? You've just told us your taste level.

I think Borle should play a straight up asshole. I think he has that kind of face and energy. Are there any musicals where there's a date rapist as a lead character? Or maybe some guy embezzling funds? I could see him doing that.

Jan Maxwell always had a touch of fish wife about her. And her gangly movement - I still remember her hitching up her dress at some point in the "Who's That Woman" sequence, not to mention that the champagne shade of her dress did not suit her plucked chicken skin tone... A Phyllis without elegance is not a Phyllis.

Christian Borle IS Nathan Lane?

I think we need an ALL FOLLIES thread.

And Jan Maxwell did that ugly guttural thing after "And just wait a goddamn minute"

[quote]Legally Blonde was aired on MTV . The musical version, not the movie.

Yes, but that was just as recording of the stage show. I meant a live presentation for TV, as with "Grease," "Hairspray," "Sound of Music," et. al.

Let's pause a moment to enjoy the guitar stylings of Broadway actor Adam Roberts, who appeared in Pippin and Spider-Man: Turn Off the Dark.

So which of the flip flop feeted chorus boys are on Only Fans now? They're going to be out of work at least another six months and more likely another year.

Why Telly Leung isn’t on OnlyFans right now is a mystery to me.

To answer the question from the previous thread, Liza was committed to do the original Encores! Chicago but pulled out before/during rehearsals. This was shortly after Victor/Victoria and she was dealing with some well-documented demons. Annie filled in at the last moment, but they held out hope Liza would eventually come through if it transferred, but that, too, was not to be.

R13 You've got that in reverse: Liza did not go into "Victor/Victoria" until January 1997. "Chicago" was at Encores! then Broadway in 1996.

And I doubt anyone thought Liza would actually be up to repeating Roxie Hart in '96.

Thanks to our National Theatre Live poster (I think...) for posting Lincoln Center's The Nance in the previous thread. I don't think it's a great play by any means, but the vaudeville/burlesque segments are very funny. And what's Johnny Orsini been up to since then?

Thanks for the clarification, R14.

Nonetheless, the “big star” who pulled out of Chicago at Encores! that Ann Reinking was referring to in that interview is Liza.

What years was that Liza Radio City Musical Hall spectacular? It was post "Stepping Out". 1992? I can see why some producer thought of her to revive CHICAGO.

[quote]The “big star” who pulled out of Chicago at Encores! that Ann Reinking was referring to in that interview is Liza.

I have NEVER heard this, and if it were true, I think more people would know about it.

I expect people kept quiet about it out of respect to Ann Reinking.

Interesting points about KINKY BOOTS in the last thread. I didn't see it on Bway, only the recording of the West End production, which I found.... underwhelming. I have enjoyed the clips from the original Bway cast more, by comparison--wish they'd recorded the entire show. And yet...

The score is a big part of the problem. Look, you can sex up a song--stage it , choreograph it, orchestrate it--within an inch of its life, but if the song's a dog, it's a dog.

And while I love Cyndi, BOOTS is a big old pack of dogs. Is she above rewriting? Was there no one person in a position to say, this song's not working, can you do better, please?

Sondheim rewrote songs constantly, as did Rodgers and Hammerstein, Lerner and Lowe (isn't the story that they wrote 80 different songs for MY FAIR LADY over the years?) , Menken and Ashman. Great shows are rewritten, not written, as one of them once said.

I'd heard that Ann Reinking was a substitute for the original choice but the original choice was not Liza Minnelli.

[Quote] I'd heard that Ann Reinking was a substitute for the original choice but the original choice was not Liza Minnelli.

There's a missing piece of information in your sentence.

I was still going strong in 1996, fellas.

Joey Heatherton is to Roxie, what Judy was to Mame. At least we got Melanie Griffith, probably the best Roxie if the role required no singing nor dancing.

Darlingsh, I already played Roxshie on Broadway. Why would I do it again? Annie was shweet to ashk me, but she's no Bob Fosse jusht becaushe she fucked him.

"And I doubt anyone thought Liza would actually be up to repeating Roxie Hart in '96."

Ya got that right.

Ann Reinking choreographed the Long Beach 1992 production --the one directed by Rob Marshall that was in many ways a reproduction of the '75 original-- and the leading ladies were Bebe Neuwith as Velma and Juliet Prowse as Roxie. So perhaps Ann had Juliet in mind for Encores!

Funny how Prowse never opened a Broadway musical, nor replaced. I guess Vegas paid better.

Juliet prowse died of pancreatic cancer in September of 1996. CHICAGO played at Encores in May of 1996. It is possible that Prowse cancelled due to a new cancer diagnosis. That timing could work.

What would NOT work is Liza as Roxie with Bebe as Velma. There should be more contrast. No one in the balcony could tell them apart.

Are you kidding? Cold as Ice Bebe could be mistaken for Love Me, Love Me Liza?

Are you kidding? And are you going to tell them that in the show they can't both have short dark hair?

Chita had short dark hair, no?

Bebe was a blonde Lola in DAMN YANKEES. She would have worn a different hair color if Liza & Co. wanted it.

Nobody in the Encores audience would have mistaken Liza and Bebe. With the average Encores age being 95, they might have mistaken Liza for Judy though.

Anyone who would mistake Liza for Judy would have to have no eyes or ears.

R35, And be in a state of dementia.

Was Bebe burned as a babe?

[quote]I expect people kept quiet about it out of respect to Ann Reinking.

People may have tried to do that, but it doesn't seem credible to me that it could have been kept quiet if Liza was supposed to do Roxie at Encores! and only bailed very late in the game.

R1, When Sutton won her first Tony for Millie and thanked "My beautiful boyfriend Christian" and the camera cut to him, I thought, Whaaaat?

[quote]When Sutton won her first Tony for Millie and thanked "My beautiful boyfriend Christian" and the camera cut to him, I thought, Whaaaat?

Same with me. I thought beautiful boyfriend Christian had gone to the men's room and we were looking at the seat filler.

Goldie Hawn would have been a great, daffy, and very likable Roxie. Roxie needs to be a bit of a lovable ditz for you to go along with her for 2 hours. Zellwegger would have been better in the movie if she had embraced that more.

[quote]What would NOT work is Liza as Roxie with Bebe as Velma. There should be more contrast. No one in the balcony could tell them apart.

I think a bigger issue is that, by 1996, I highly doubt that Liza would still have been able to dance well enough for CHICAGO. I'm almost certain she had already begun to have hip problems by then, aside from everything else.

[quote]When Sutton won her first Tony for Millie and thanked "My beautiful boyfriend Christian".....

Until you brought this up, I had almost forgotten that they were married from 2006 to 2010.

what do we think happened to aurora spiderwoman this time?

[quote]What do we think happened to aurora spiderwoman this time?

Has he dropped out of sight again?

Is Aurora Spiderwoman gone again? No! I loved their content.

Isn't Aurora a Portuguese teen/early 20s?

I also thought it was Prowse for Roxie at Encores because of the Reinking/Neuwirth connection. Initially, at LBCLO, it was to be Prowse as Roxie and Reinking as Velma. There were even ads for it. For whatever reason, Reinking backed out of the performing and Neuwirth was the replacement and the rest is Broadway history.

Someone also suggested it was Vanessa Williams as Roxie but I think they'd consider her more a Velma. I don't see Liza in the role at that time.

It doesn't seem believable the they hoped for a transfer with Prowse. She was strictly for the regions by then, no?

Why is Bebe Neuwirth such a persistent cunt?

Nobody and I mean NOBODY in the biz seems to have anything nice to say about her. Frankly, it would bother me if every person I'd ever worked with had the time, inclination, and enthusiasm to say unflattering things about me. I would begin to examine my own behavior, I hope!

When Sutton got her second Tony, she thanked her boyfriend Bobby Cannavale. Perhaps she should consider discontinuing that tradition should she win her third.

Isn't Neuwirth more a weirdo than a...? I forget - did she make that art that she tried to make lowly fellow cast members buy or was she shilling for her husband's art?

Goldie & Liza

Liza's dancing has intent... electricity. Goldie's doesn't. Hawn's seems aimless in comparison.

Two talented ladies, but their talents do not mesh.

Goldie wasn't a Star dancer.

I love FOLLIES!

[quote] Same with me. I thought beautiful boyfriend Christian had gone to the men's room and we were looking at the seat filler.

Now THAT'S funny

Maybe they should rename DataLounge (is it "day-ta" or "da-ta", btw) as "FolliesLounge".

[Quote] Maybe they should rename DataLounge (is it "day-ta" or "da-ta", btw) as "FolliesLounge".

How did you find this site?

After what happened with “The Rink” it’s highly unlikely that Encores would have come knocking on Liza’s door in 1996. Liza was a great Roxie in 1975 (but Verdon was a better actress and dancer), but more than 20 years later it’s doubtful she could have pulled it off.

With Reinking’s comment about the original choice being a bigger star, that doesn’t point to Prowse. Besides, Prowse was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer in 1994. She went into remission in ‘95, but it ended and she was full-time patient for most of 1996 (till she died in September).

I used to love watching Harold Lang performing Happy Little Hunting Horn on blue gobo.

But it was taken down years ago.

Is that number streaming ANYWHERE?????

In his memoir, Arthur Laurents wrote that Harold Lang had the perfect body for sex.

Encores wasn't known for their "big" stars. I think the biggest names they got were Tyne Daly and Doris Roberts. Everyone else was a Broadway baby (Patrick Wilson just starting out) or a B-list: Nathan Lane, Kristin Chenoweth, Malcolm Gets, Vanessa Williams, Patti LuPone

I think Prowse was a pretty big name and certainly better known nationally than Reinking.

R64, Her engagement to Sinatra made Prowse well known.

Leslie Uggams spits at you, R63.

I feel sorry for anyone who slept with Arthur Laurents.

I read his autobiography, and it was clear he was always a total jerk!

[quote]or a B-list: Nathan Lane, Kristin Chenoweth, Malcolm Gets, Vanessa Williams, Patti LuPone

If you look at Hollywood and Broadway as separate industries, I think it could be argued that Lane, Chenoweth and LuPone are A-list as far as the theater is concerned.

Jerks can be good sex.

R69, Amen.

[quote]Leslie Uggams spits at you, [R63].

And I spit right back. It wasn't like Uggams was Beyonce or Tina Turner or Aretha Franklin.

Encores Presents CHER in Applause!

With Stacey Q as Miss Caswell.

[quote] Her engagement to Sinatra made Prowse well known.

Yeah. In 1960. By 1996 she was strictly B-list, if that.

Have YOU headlined at Harrah's?

Leonard Bernstein called Lang's ass one of the seven wonders of the world. Gore Vidal marvelled at his body. Out of spite Cole wrote Bianca for him and Lang went and made it a hit in the show to get revenge on Porter

Laurents was a cunt. he was always a cunt. A nasty, grudge holding cunt.

[quote]Nobody and I mean NOBODY in the biz seems to have anything nice to say about her. Frankly, it would bother me if every person I'd ever worked with had the time, inclination, and enthusiasm to say unflattering things about me. I would begin to examine my own behavior, I hope!

Hi, nice to meet you, [r49]. I worked with Bebe Neuwirth for a couple of years. While it is true that she doesn't suffer fools gladly, her "cuntiness" has been exaggerated. She was always very nice to me in a professional setting. A few years after our professional relationship ended, we happened to be in the same restaurant. Bebe greeted me warmly and asked after my well-being.

R49 ...are you dead Mary Sunshine?

All the women from [italic]Cheers[/italic] had "issues," let's put it delicately.

[quote]A few years after our professional relationship ended, we happened to be in the same restaurant. Bebe greeted me warmly and asked after my well-being.

And she didn't pay for your meal?

[quote]And she didn't pay for your meal?

Funny you should mention that, [r61]. She was having dinner. I was at the bar. After she approached me, gave me a hug and left, I discovered that, yes, in fact, she *had* picked up my bar tab.

The story that used to go around about Lang, Porter and Kiss Me Kate was that Porter was keeping Lang. Lang, after leaving Ballet Theater (the predecessor to ABT), had tried to make a career on Broadway but had only a series of bit parts. Porter got him cast in Kate.

The day after his contract was signed, Lang dumped Porter. Lang's contract guaranteed him one song. In revenge, Porter deliberately wrote a song so bad that he was sure it would get cut. But Lang had a big dance solo in Bianca and from the first preview he would stop the the second act with it every night and the number stayed.

And that's how the turd that is Bianca ended up in the string of pearls that is the rest Kate's score.

Have no proof or source but when a was a young gayling in New York in the 70s I heard it several times from older gays in the business who would have been in a position to know.

Bebe can be ridiculously kind if she likes you, but she doesn’t suffer fools and doesn’t do well with the “fan” thing either. She never would allow stage door photos, even in the 80s, 90s and maybe beyond that. She always delivers onstage, though. I’ve never seen her give a halfhearted performance, ever.

And btw yes it was Liza for Encores! and she pulled out.

[quote]I heard it several times from older gays in the business who would have been in a position to know.

Position = bent over?

Has Streisand ever commented on working with Harold Lang in Wholesale?

Streisand always thought that her own ass was one of the seven wonders of the world.

A more likely reason for "Bianca" that has also been recorded in print (and I'm not digging through my library to include a citation,) is that Lang was offered a solo in the 2nd Act as an inducement to accept the role. During rehearsal, before the song had been written, the authors, composer, and director agreed that the 2nd Act was playing well without a song for Lang. They wanted out of that obligation, so they agreed to offer Lang an awful song which he would refuse. At that point, having given him a song, they would have met their contractual obligation and be done with it. Lang quickly knew he was getting fucked by the creators of the show, so he fucked them right back by accepting their song and making it a show stopping moment for himself.

A similar thing happened with the original production of "Whoopee" in 1928. Early on, Ruth Etting was contracted to appear in the show, say a few lines, and sing one song. Musicals were very loosely structured and Etting was to appear late in the 2nd Act, playing a famous movie star, who says a few lines to the characters in the play and sing her song. Essentially, she was there for her box office power and for publicity.

During rehearsal, everything was falling into place well and the producers came to the idea that Eddie Cantor, alone, would be enough to make it a hit. They didn't need Etting and they didn't want to pay her a star salary for one song which they did not need. So, the extremely rangey "Love Me or Leave Me" came to be written.

It was deliberately written with a large range and big skips between notes so that Etting would refuse. She sang through it once, knew what they were doing, and accepted the song. She kept her gig and her star salary. When she recorded the song, it went to #2 on the charts. Even Harold Lang couldn't do that.

Just noticed the Instagram account for the Broadway production of Phantom (@phantombway) has disappeared, apparently within the past few days. Goodbye to Broadway’s longest-running show?

[Quote] Position = bent over?

[Quote] Has Streisand ever commented on working with Harold Lang in Wholesale?

She used to do him at parties and the occasional photoshoot.

R4, I liked the fullness of his voice and the fact that he seemed remote and full of himself and into being tormented by his own success as a means of garnering sympathy. The guy in the National Theater version felt a little more realistic in some ways but I found his sensitivity undermined his narcissism a little.

I guess it's just about levels. If you have one actor who's playing their character in a way that makes you think you could run into them on the street and they'd be the exact same way, but then the other characters are requiring more suspension of disbelief...then they just feel out of place with the overall performance. I thought Ron, Jan, Bernadette and Danny were all on the same level. 1 performance didn't seem more stylized than the others. They all had the same kind of level of realism to me. I was able to believe every word that came out of their mouths. In this production I felt like the actors were kind of operating on different levels and buying Imelda as a Follies girl who everybody could possibly believe still had her marbles, that wasn't working for me.

Also the vocals just weren't as strong. The ghost dodged the high notes at the end of One More Kiss, Imelda's contributions to Too Many Mornings were clearly adjusted so she didn't have to have as much of a range, and even Ben wasn't singing as powerfully as Ron did. It felt like all the vocals were scaled-down.

R6 see I like her better because of those things. She wasn't some robot High Society statue. You could understand why she would be happy to see Sally and not just looking down her nose at everyone. That warmth made me love her. True, the dress didn't do much color-wise to make Jan look amazing, and she was a bit gangly and thin, as you say, but I liked the character that it gave her. It was much more sexy and shocking seeing her in the Lucy and Jessie number at the end of the night in crimson with her hair down. And since Phyllis doesn't seem to have too much interest in the reunion anyway, I'm not surprised by her choice of garment. She wasn't trying to show off how amazing she was and was maybe happy blending in to some degree. If anything, her beige V neck number is more attractive and alluring than being covered from her neck to her toes the way the UK Phyllis was. What was she even wearing anyway? At first I thought it was a dress with a slit down the middle, and I thought it was a pantsuit, then I saw that they were pants underneath..so it was more of a dress that was split down the middle with pants underneath? I was so confused.

And why did Phyllis wear black in her big 11 o'clock number? Very tame. I just found her off-putting and too bitchy the whole way through to really be sympathetic.

Strange how you point to scaled down vocals but don't mention that for Bernadette...

[Quote] Phyllis doesn't seem to have too much interest in the reunion anyway.

At the top of the show, it's made clear that Ben is not interested in the reunion while Phyllis is.

Jan Maxwell's Phyllis was not a woman who would stand by her man and only start to make waves at fiftyish. She was a warm, fun, screwball heroine. There was a touch of that in Alexis Smith's performance ("Do you think the Japs will win the war?!" "I can't go home to Mother. She's dead."). But there was also a necessary froideur. Not so with Maxwell. If Ben is a total asshole and Phyllis is nothing but adorable, the balance is off.

I wasn't impressed with Philip Quast in the NT production. For me, McMartin and the actor who played Ben in the Madrid production were the best. Ben and Sally are the most difficult characters to play.

Sexy? Jan Maxwell was game but she couldn't move well to save her life. The choreographer has to bear his share of the blame but Ms. Maxwell accepted the choreography.

Wow, when was that in the run, r94? That choreography is totally different than the Bway boot I have .

Harold Lang had a big cock, too. I knew him in his later years.

r15, Jonny Orsini had a small role in last year's indie, The Assistant, starring Julia Garner. (Worth watching.) But he's now (wisely) Jon Orsini.

[Quote] That choreography is totally different than the Bway boot I have .

You probably have a Kennedy Center boot. Is Regine in it?

All this stuff about Lang is useless without pictures.

Imagine him bearing down on your dick.

Hal in tights.

He could kick his legs higher AND wider...

With Bette Davis and Glenn Ford.

Am I the only one who finally understood Richard Maxwell's plays after seeing Jan act?

I still did not like them, but at least I understood where they came from and the specific humor better.

But I really do not like them.

You call that dancing, Jan? Where are all the injured chorus boys? That’s how you know you’re doing it right.

Alfred Drake, giving you Mary!

He still looked good in "... Wholesale." What height was he? 5'5"?

Who are the people bookending this group? I can name: Harold Lang, Lillian Roth, Elliot Gould, Marilyn Cooper.

[quote] "My beautiful boyfriend Christian"

For the poster in the last thread who was going on about Borle's new and improved body, that is old news. He has since let his body go to shit. Still has okay arms, but he has a gut and lovehandles. Too much partying, so the rumors say.

Is he partying with other 40 somethings?

R83, Harold Lang had appeared several times as a solo dancer on Broadway and had "also starring" billing in LOOK MA, I'M DANCIN'! before KISS ME, KATE.

R83, Harold Lang had appeared several times on Broadway as a solo dancer and had "also starring" billing in LOOK MA, I'M DANCIN'! before KISS ME, KATE.

R109, Bambi Linn, the original Louise in CAROUSEL and the the dancing Laurey in the film of OKLAHOMA! and Ken Le Roy, the original Bernardo in WEST SIDE STORY.

Thanks, r114.

Follies?

What's that?

R94 that's not a fair example. Without even watching your link, I think I know exactly what it is, the early out-of-town tryout choreography for Phyllis in Lucy and Jessie, right? Yeah, Jan did not look so good in that. Dispersed the number up for Broadway and it worked like gangbusters, especially that flip at the end. Besides the choreography was still better than the national theatres version, where she seems to just sort of occasionally flick one leg around.

In fairness Jan's not the best singer or the best dancer but that kind of worked for the character. She hasn't been reliving her youth all these years in her head, like Sally, as much as being a stiff classy High Society accessory to her husband. Jan even had a little bit of a hunch that I found very endearing. And I definitely felt her cold and bitchy side.

It's interesting to me that the two best singers in the foursome are Bernadette as Sally and Ron as Ben. It definitely made you root for them to get together during Too Many Mornings ....even if it was a fanciful idea.

I find the show kind of difficult to discuss because it seems like every production has different lines of dialogue and different moments happening in different orders. Thank God for bootlegs because I've at least been able to revisit I wonderful experience seeing it in New York almost 10 years ago.

Can we all just agree that Jane Houdyshell was fan f****** tastic in Broadway Baby?

[Quote] the early out-of-town tryout choreography for Phyllis in Lucy and Jessie, right?

Nope. Maxwell is in her revised dress.

[Quote] Besides the choreography was still better

Busy is better?

Surely the number one rule of choreography should be: Give your performer what they can execute well. YMMV.

[Quote] In fairness Jan's not the best singer or the best dancer but that kind of worked for the character.

Phyllis is Sally Bowles? I guess...

Ron Raines' singing showed up that Bernadette was singing a role that didn't fit her voice type.

I was thinking about titling my autobiography "On The Town."

Pal Ho-ey.

[quote] Can we all just agree that Jane Houdyshell was fan f****** tastic in Broadway Baby?

No, she was one of the worst. The song sells itself. It doesn't need a lot of busy work. She mimed every single word she was singing and it was annoying. Just stand center stage and sing the damn song!

The idea that anyone ogled Jayne Houdyshell in a dress cut down to there...

[quote]Bebe can be ridiculously kind if she likes you, but she doesn’t suffer fools and doesn’t do well with the “fan” thing either.

Not that it matters here but this also describes Oprah to a T.

Why would someone need to describe Oprah to a transsexual?

[Quote] Why would someone need to describe Oprah to a transsexual?

Because they sleep through daytime?

I think Jan Maxwell's characterization of Phyllis was we were seeing the girl she used to be underneath the crisp society matron she created. Phyllis says she came back to the reunion to find whatever it is that she lost, and I believed this was a woman who walked her feet off in the Metropolitan to make something out of herself. Why I don't think "Ah, But Underneath" works for Phyllis is there is something there and it takes coming back to the Follies for her to remember that she's more than the captions on paintings she's memorized or the dinner conversations she's had to lead.

Hiking her skirt up to dance didn't seem as off-putting to me as when she and Sally give each other an eye roll inducing high five during "Who's That Woman"... a number that immediately follows dialogue of Phyllis confronting Sally over her lingering feelings for Ben. That seemed more like a bit between two actors in rehearsal glad they made it through some chorepgraphy rather than the characters (but that was kinda the vibe I got from that number in general... woo we are so out of shape and tired and I'm not going to do this bit of the dance steps and oh look Susan Watson forgot which way to turn).

But yes, Jan was totally let down by that Jack Cole routine on "Lucy and Jessie." Just let the boys carry her the entire time instead of making your non-dancing leading lady sweat it out. At least at Encores they let Donna Murphy riff the ending to give it some oomph.

TCM has been showing a lot of the old backstage musicals from the 30s and 40s and I think they are really where a director should look if they want to get an idea of how the libretto to Follies flows. There are so many little moments where you cut to two characters giving off-hand remarks about the main action or just finishing their own piece of dialogue that leads into other action. So many productions have everyone walk downstage center, recite their lines, and walk offstage. The National Theatre production (bless you, Valens, whoever you are) conceit of a cinéma vérité documentary crew is probably the smartest gimmick to use when dealing with the free flowing book. Also, I didn't mind the transition to Loveland but think it would have made more impact if the color scheme was different - Lady in the Dark's sickeningly vibrant psychedelic technicolor dream sequence rather than sleek and chic art deco blues and silvers. There needs to be something BIG to signify that these are not just the theatre ghosts we've seen all evening but rather some new demon haunting the quartet.

[Quote] Why I don't think "Ah, But Underneath" works for Phyllis is there is something there and it takes coming back to the Follies for her to remember that she's more than the captions on paintings she's memorized or the dinner conversations she's had to lead.

If that's true, why doesn't she leave Ben and strike out on her own?

[Quote] when she and Sally give each other an eye roll inducing high five during "Who's That Woman"... a number that immediately follows dialogue of Phyllis confronting Sally over her lingering feelings for Ben.

Yes. That was very "sisters are doing it for themselves" contemporary bullshit.

I never even considered Liza as a possible Roxie, but it does seem like a project she'd sign on to do for Kander & Ebb; especially if most of the proceeding Encores series had been just hold script and stand behind the microphone with maybe the whiff of an idea of choreography. Was Chicago the first Encores production to have such a fully integrated dance?

R132, Liza had already played Roxie in the original production, filling in for Verdon when she had her throat operation.

I've heard a recording of Liza IN CHICAGO. She wasn't all that great.

[quote]especially if most of the proceeding Encores series had been just hold script and stand behind the microphone with maybe the whiff of an idea of choreography. Was Chicago the first Encores production to have such a fully integrated dance?

Encores had already been moving away from the tuxedo/evening gown/microphone model. But I think Chicago was their first musical where choreography was absolutely necessary to the show.

R130, I think Phyllis stays because she realizes Ben finally needs her the way she thought she needed him. After dealing with the past, they might even be a more solid partnership than they were in the past... doubt they move back into the same bedroom though.

Phyllis stays with Ben just to spite Sally. She was always standing in the way of other people's happiness.

This fucking Follies is like you're talking about a soap opera.

Fraus the lot of you!

"Lucy and Jessie" doesn't really work in the show. "Ah, but Underneath!" doesn't really work in the show. "Uptown, Downtown" wouldn't work, either. Phyllis fucks with Ben's mind and puts him on notice with "Will I leave you? Guess!" So, during Loveland, when their truths come out, Phyllis should sing "And I Am Telling You, I'm Not Going," for a bit of R&B, or possibly "Stand By Your Man," for a bit of C&W. Broadens the score. Clarifies the narrative. (Gets rid of a not-so-great song.)

If the audience has not already figured out that Phyllis is hard as a glittering diamond on the outside, but nothing like that on the inside, Loveland is FAR too late in the evening to introduce the idea. That game is already lost. That dichotomy is better something for the actress to convey to the audience, not for the composer to explain.

Nonsense. She should sing "I Am Woman" and run off with Carlotta.

Yeah, I too am getting sick of this "women don't need men" bullshit! It always rings hollow, because in real life, most heterosexual women do need/want a man. Only radical feminists feel otherwise.

Most people want a partner. It's not a gender thing.

"Ah, But Underneath" is the easiest song to understand and leaves the audience satisfied musically.

"The Story of Lucy & Jessie" is like making the audience read "War & Peace." It's a slog and looses some audience members in the execution of the task.

It's really unfair because "Losing My Mind" gets points for Sally because it's an easy song to "digest". The actress playing Phyllis has to work harder getting her song across.

That shows the genius of Michael Bennett's staging of "Lucy and Jessie." The audience can just watch a showstopping number and see Phyllis attain this great release. She's dancing her blues away.

But Lucy and Jessie is a least fun, even if you do not get it all.

Ah But Underneath is easy to get, but also easy to forget. It just is not much fun.

Many (most?) audience members find "Lucy and Jessie" confusing: they think Phyllis is singing about Sally and herself, not dual aspects of Phyllis. I thought the same thing initially.

It's still a better song than the replacement, though.

Sondheim needs to get Phyllis' song straightened out. He's had enough time! He needs to get on it stat!

"Ah, But Underneath" ties in to Ben and Phyllis' final interaction better.

I'll get on it like I'll get on my laundry.

I love it when people opine that "many (most) audience members" feel one way or another about a show. How the hell do you know?

R83, I've heard that Cole Porter/Harold Lang story many times as well, and it sure is delicious, but it's never sounded fully credible to me. Are we really supposed to believe that Porter would purposely write a bad song for Lang, thinking it was so bad that it would be cut? And even if that's true, when it WASN'T cut, why didn't he just write a new one? There's really nothing wrong with the melody of "Bianca," only the lyrics. Porter could have rewritten the song with the name pronounced "Bee-ON-ca" rather than "Bee-ANK-a," and then quickly rewritten the rest of the lyrics. The reason Lang stopped the show was, as you noted, because of the dance portion of the song, but it would be nice not to have that horrible lyric in an otherwise great show.

R146, really? The first time I ever heard that anyone had that confusion was when the director of the NT production described it.

I have never heard an actual person say that before you.

Having young and old Phyllis both appear in the number seems to eliminate that confusion--though NT did not use the young/old in staging the number very effectively.

Also, it seems that in production the contrast between the young and old Phyllis needs to be established thorughout the night. If that is done, no one is confused. (interestingly enough, no one was confused in the original production because that production in general emphasized the differences between young and old selves--whereas most revivals try to make them recognizably the same characters.)

Harold Lang couldn't offer Cole what I could.

The Harold Lang character sings, in the intro, "So I've written her a love song, though I'm just an amateur." I always assumed the lyrics to "Bianca" were deliberately clunky for comedic effect.

Same with me, r154. I thought Bianca was just silly words from a dancer who threw them together while he was in between a matinee and evening performance.

If any dancer on Broadway is destined for an OnlyFans site, It's Charlie Williams. From the neck down, of course. There will still be hundreds of guys who'll recognize him by his junk and that hideous tattoo.

[quote]I love it when people opine that "many (most) audience members" feel one way or another about a show. How the hell do you know?

1. Because the snores of the audience drown out the song.

2. Because people remember Blythe Danner bumping into chorus boys rather than the intention of the song.

Here's a little story about Blythe and Jan, one wasn't lithe, one wasn't a fan.

Can anyone tell me how Little Charlie Stemp is doing? We can't lose his magnificent talents to the 'rona virus.

Charlie's first hook up will be Rob Ashford. Hard pass.

R146, My mother's name was Jessie, her sister's name was Lucy.

They had a lifelong, albeit loving, rivalry.

They loved that song. The first time I played it for them, they laughed uproariously.

I miss them both.

Do we need a to just devote a thread to Follies? Or threads?

[quote]Can anyone tell me how Little Charlie Stemp is doing?

One assumes he's "riding" out the quarantine on Cameron's yacht. I hear they just got a brand new chandelier.

What new shows or productions would you like to see when Broadway reopens?

Presumably, we'll be getting The Music Man and Company and Plaza Suite (and Six, I guess). Now would be a great time for a revival of Ain't Misbehavin' or Hollywood/Ukraine. I dream of a beautiful production of ALNM or Sweeney Todd or Pacific Overtures at the Beaumont (yes, I know they've all been done fairly recently in NY). Could they put the Bridge Theatre's Midsummer at Circle in the Square or St. Ann's?

I was in a production of Follies in college where the music director said the song was about Phyllis and Sally until corrected, but he cared more about the ensemble coming in on the same beat than Ben's breakdown so.

I think "Lucy and Jessie" can be staged without having Young Phyllis shuffling in the background behind Phyllis. Have half the boys dressed in one color or style of dress (derbies and suspenders vs tuxedo and tails) and then Phyllis in something black and chic that could in theory fit into either musical dreamscape.

Also... Follies is a soap opera, or at least the storyline the audience has to follow is. Trying to turn the show into an evening of old warhorses strutting their stuff only seems to make the main characters even more drab and downbeat. Ya kinda need Phyllis monologuing about her mole and other pulpy dialogue to give the audience a little juice with all that tonic.

R161 I'm too new to start a thread, but if somebody else wants to I won't cry foul.

There's already a Follies thread from the NT Live production.

Ashley Day and Adam Kaplan - who's had them together?

R164, Young Phyllis was doing a lot more than shuffling in the background.

The costuming for the number sucked. But seeing old Phyllis recognize Young Phyllis and dance with her at the end was dramatically satisfying.

Shuffling in the background would be a decorative choice. Not really worth it. The number has to go somewhere.

[quote]Now would be a great time for a revival of Ain't Misbehavin'

As far as I'm concerned, it's ALWAYS a great time for a good revival of this. Still the best jukebox musical ever.

That said, I had friends involved in a regional production about a year and a half ago and the local POC community inundated the theatre with letters and statements. The theatre had basically just presented the show as is; they didn't try to reinvent the wheel or anything. But evidently, the thought these days is that it traffics in stereotypes. Depressing.

[quote]But evidently, the thought these days is that it traffics in stereotypes.

From the original cast, Charlaine Woodard always thought her role was a stereotype: the goofy black girl.

As far as I'm concerned, Charlie Williams looks just fine from the neck up as well. But add me as someone else who feels that jokes about chorus boys getting into OnlyFans, doing live cam shows, etc. because of the pandemic are in extremely poor taste and really reprehensible, when you actually think about how truly desperate the situation is for so many people.

This thread title certainly wasn't prophetic.

[quote]From the original cast, Charlaine Woodard always thought her role was a stereotype: the goofy black girl.

So black people can't play goofy characters? If someone wrote a new review of songs by Irving Berlin and some of the female characters in some of the songs were intended to be played as goofy, would the performers object that they had to play the stereotype of the goofy white girl?

Woodard is stating the problem with this kind of revue/juke box show---the characters are usually stereotypes because you do not have the option of writing songs that will flesh out full characters.

For white performers, playing a stereotype is not such a big issue because you have a range of other characters to play over time, but for minority actors it can feel like shit because the opportunities are more limited---and because so many people still tend to see non-white people as stereotypes rather than fully human people.

R171 I knew there was no chance of it coming true. Please see the line of text I added below the title.

I know, OP. I was just amused by how many "Follies" posts there are in the "first Follies-free thread."

All five characters in Ain’t Misbehavin’ are caricatures of sorts. I loved Woodard in the show and I’m sorry she has bad feelings about it now. I would love to see a great revival of this show.

I SEE YOU WHITE LUCY AND/OR JESSIE!

[quote]The audience can just watch a showstopping number and see Phyllis attain this great release. She's dancing her blues away.

She could've just tapped her troubles away!

R168, not just these days. Charlayne Woodard (and others I know) felt that way back in the 70s when the show opened.

Stereotypes are always iffy. Some people find Jack on Will and Grace empowering. Others find him demeaning. It is hard to say that either point of view is right (or wrong).

Camille A. Brown is directing and choreographing a new Ain't Misbehavin' for Westport Country Playhouse/Barrington Stage Company. It was supposed to have been on stage this summer, but has been delayed to 2021.

The solution is to start a thread called ALL ABOUT FOLLIES. Within ten posts it will be taken over by a debate about Liza or Julie, or who should play Rose in the next revival of Gypsy.

Pancakes Dina!

[quote] Strange how you point to scaled down vocals but don't mention that for Bernadette.

Too Many Mornings was in the original key. Bernadette does have soprano notes (listen to Star Tar in Dames at Sea), but it’s not where she lives. I’m sure she went into vocal training to strengthen her soprano before doing Follies.

Going back to the Encores Chicago cast, I read somewhere that Sandy Duncan was to be Roxie in the Encores production, but she could not get out of her Easter Parade contract. When all was all said and done Easter Parade did not go forward.

That makes more sense to me, r184. But the workshop of Easter Parade didn’t happen till April 1997. Even if that was a postponed date, it seems like Sandy D would have been able to do Encores in May 1996. She wouldn’t have been able to transfer, but she theoretically could have done the Encores run.

R84 Well, I have no idea whether or not it's correct, but I think I like your story the best, as Sandy Duncan did wind up doing the "Chicago" revival (with great success) and later did the Encores! "Nanette."

Sorry, the above was meant to be a reply to R184, not R84.

Donna Murphy - the great Phyllis that no one on here seems to have seen - made a lot out of that think the Japs will win the war line

People have started threads dedicated strictly to Follies several times but they always seem to fade out after 200 to 300 replies. Here's one from 5 years ago. Go to google and search for Follies Datalounge for others.

Meanwhile I never get tired of this, which has been posted many times. Someone's silent movies carefully synched to an audio boot from the soundboard.

But I had never run across this version before today. Different camera angles, including medium shots and closeups, synched a little differently to the audio.

I'm not sure I understand the whole, "Harold Lang thwarted the creative team of Kiss Me Kate and made a hit out of Bianca" thing. Presumably he worked out his routine with the choreographer and the dance music arranger, and the number was approved by the director and songwriter. Then the dance number would be given to the orchestrator, rehearsed with the orchestra, and put into the show. Do people think he created the number on his own and sprung it on everyone on opening night?

[quote]Do people think he created the number on his own and sprung it on everyone on opening night?

No.

"Woodard is stating the problem with this kind of revue/juke box show---the characters are usually stereotypes because you do not have the option of writing songs that will flesh out full characters.

For white performers, playing a stereotype is not such a big issue because you have a range of other characters to play over time, but for minority actors it can feel like shit because the opportunities are more limited---and because so many people still tend to see non-white people as stereotypes rather than fully human people."

I understand this fully--if the performers were required to play the horrible minstrel stereotypes you see every day in contemporary commercials and sitcoms (why does no one protest that?). But we're talking about Ain't Misbehavin', a show that honors the black experience (there is no greater summary of that than the song Black and Blue, the whole point of the show). In any event, the show, like any play since antiquity (its revue status notwithstanding) trades in types: leading man, ingenue, romantic couple, carnal couple, trickster, comic character, tragic heroine...the list goes on and on and on. It's called the human condition. It's how people assess one another in real life: "she's a real character"; "he's a regular playboy" "he's the sensitive poet type" and so forth. I can't imagine anything more patronizing and nonsensical than dramatizing any group of people without flaws or eccentricities or vulnerabilities because it's considered "stereotypical."

Just do a revisical as "Ain't Miss DeHaven." Each of the principals would of course not be Gloria DeHaven. But there would be sketches where they would be mistaken for her or expected to be her.

I didn't know "the goofy black girl" was a stereotype. Who are some famous examples of the stereotype?

[quote]I didn't know "the goofy black girl" was a stereotype. Who are some famous examples of the stereotype?

Prissy in Gone With The Wind

So "goofy black girl" means "child woman"? I guess.

R198, did you see HOLLYWOOD, currently on Netflix? Do you recall the scene specifically about this? The black actress played the maid's scene straight and was chastised for not giving what the director wanted. Then she came back, rolled her eyes, gave a lot of sass and was praised to the skies.

It's like that. There are stereotypes and people expected to fill them.

"Sassy black girl" is the same as "goofy black girl"?

Well I never in all my life have seen a production of this FOLLYS that everyone is talking about. But after reading almost 9 years of theatre threads here on Datalounge, I feel as if I have seen it a dozen times.

I know more about it than some shows I HAVE seen.

I don't have to see it EVER.

Now - about Saturday night's Broadway Bares streaming......what will we see????

Start at 6:45 and you'll see what Charlayne was objecting to. This wasn't just one number, she was expected to play this character through the entire show.

I'm not one who usually listens to complaints like this, but in this case, I see her point.

They expected her to play Betty Fucking Hutton!? I condole you, Charlene.

It’s a stereotype, like the ditzy blonde. Are we supposed to boycott Audrey in LSOH, too?

It's a particularly annoying character. I can see why the actress would have loathed playing it. And it's more than a ditz, the character plays into the substandard intelligence thing some whites have peddled about black people.

Plus, she has to sing off-key.

Donna Murphy didn't seem like an ideal Phyllis on paper, but she won me over. Amazing what a strong actress like that can do.

[quote]Stereotypes are always iffy. Some people find Jack on Will and Grace empowering. Others find him demeaning. It is hard to say that either point of view is right (or wrong).

So true, thanks for that observation. I've always felt stereotypical characters are more or less digestible depending on the other characters in the show. In WILL AND GRACE, Jack was balanced by Will, a character who was NOTHING like him. And also: If one wants to argue that Jack should not exist as a character because he's so stereotypically and flamboyantly gay, does that mean such people don't exist in real life? And if they DO exist in real life, why can't they exist in fiction?

[quote]Did you see HOLLYWOOD, currently on Netflix? Do you recall the scene specifically about this? The black actress played the maid's scene straight and was chastised for not giving what the director wanted. Then she came back, rolled her eyes, gave a lot of sass and was praised to the skies.

I remember a scene like that in the movie CRASH. Tony Dana played a white TV or film director, and in one scene he's directing a black actor to "act more black." I don't remember if he used those exactly words, but his meaning was clear.

[quote]It’s a stereotype, like the ditzy blonde. Are we supposed to boycott Audrey in LSOH, too?

Or Adelaide in GUYS AND DOLLS, or Billie Dawn in BORN YESTERDAY, or Norma in VICTOR/VITORIA, etc., etc.? That said, I guess maybe the difference with Woodard's character in AIN'T MISBEHAVIN' was that the show was created by white people, even though it features the music of a legendary black songwriter.

J'adore Miss DeHaven, r195!

So why do Charlayne Woodard take the role from Irene Cara? Did Cara play her as a ditz too?

Oh, Ginge....

Cara missed a performance. When they went looking for her, she was found under the influence. She was fired.

Not our Coco...

Charlayne is brilliant in the HOW YA BABY number and her charater is sassy but not stupid.

R194, but look at Woodard subsequent career. She has played a variety of characters full of flaws, eccentricities and vulnerabilities without being stereotypes.

While this complaint about Aint Misbehavin might be ridiculous coming from Nell Carter, Charlayne Woodard's career as an actress and a writer has been almost exclusively full dimensional human beings in Stunning, Fabulation, Pretty Fire, Witch of Edmonton, etc.

She is one of the only black actors I can think of who has not had to frequently play stereotypical characters.

Don't forget this on Saturday:

Jesus, that Michael Bennett choreography for Alexis Smith is sublime.

Can we have a separate thread(s) for Follies/Theatrical History so this can be a gossip thread? I don't consider information shared from 50+ years ago or endless discussions about shows 40 years or older to be gossip.

It's okay with me if the gossip thread isn't that busy while the shows have closed down. Gossip will pick up when business does.

Thus, all fairy stories end! Only an actress would pretend affairs of state are her latest play; eight shows a week, two matinees. My, how the worm begins to turn! When will the chorus girl ever learn?

Is there an OnlyFans for broadway bares “zoom”? Asking for a friend.

No theatre thread is complete without a discussion of Barbra Streisand's buttcrack.

R219 I must have listened to that song hundreds of times and never really knew the lyrics “eight shows a week, two matinees.” Probably it was due to a combination of mush-mouth LuPone and Tim Rice’s clumsy skills at setting words to music.

No we can’t R218. Thanks for volunteering to be the hall monitor, though.

Lol what is all that gossip that you think is going to fill up these threads

R222 here, I apologize to Ms. LuPone. I just remembered that the chorus sings those lyrics. Forgive me, Patti.

I was never in the chorus!

I’ll tell you my theatre story.

Many years ago, when I was visiting Chicago (the city), I went to the Steamworks bathhouse. I met a tall gorgeously-muscled, blondish guy and had mind blowing sex.

Afterwards, during the pillow talk, he mentioned he was going to NYC soon for the premiere of The Producers, a new musical for which he was one of the producers. He hoped it would do well because he had a lot of money wrapped up in it. I told him I was hearing good buzz about it, and wished him luck.

He must have made a mint.

Anyone know who he is?

Yes. He's my husband. And he was then as well.

More of a slut-whore story than a theatre story r227.

[quote] Anyone know who he is?

Unless this conversation happened in Chicago, he’s a big fat liar.

I thought Mel Brooks told us The Producers” was produced by “a phalanx of Jews”. Didn’t see anyone blondish on that stage.

But go to YouTube and watch the Tonys for that year. If he was a producer of The Producers, he’d be on that stage.

As r230, I officially retract my post and will go flagellate myself for poor reading comprehension skills

I second that, R218. Too bad people like R223 are too boorish to do anything but ruminate over the same material constantly.

You must be new here if you think you can "Editor!" thread subjects out of discussion. Let me guess: You have nothing to add (gossip, opinion), which is why you don't change the subject when Follies comes up. This is a message board. People interact. If you have nothing to contribute, getting pissy about others' contributions will get you SFA.

Cranky grandpa at R234, I’ve actually spoken up multiple times (and seen others speak up) on current, relevant subjects only to be steamrolled by some dull queen’s musings about whether Yvonne De Carlo or Dolores Gray had a rounder left tit.

I guess you failed to spark debate. Better luck next time.

The conversation not going where you want it to is not “steamrolling”.

It is not our job to entertain you, asshole.

[quote] I officially retract my post and will go flagellate myself

Pics please.

Sorry r238. Already done, left no photographic evidence.

I won't entertain you I won't make you smile....

r227 great story. The challenge for us to find him though is that so many investors now are called (or call themselves) "producers." Lots of debate on either side of that - but it will make identifying your bathhouse bonemeister (went for something vaguely Germanic for you there) difficult. The named lead producers were indeed, as Brook says, a phalanx of jews (which doesn't preclude a tall muscly blond, but they were an older group too).

R227, Here are the producers of The Producers:

Produced by Rocco Landesman, SFX Theatrical Group, The Frankel-Baruch-Viertel-Routh Group, Bob Weinstein, Harvey Weinstein, Rick Steiner, Robert F.X. Sillerman and Mel Brooks; Produced in association with James D. Stern and Douglas L. Meyer; Associate Producer: Frederic H. Mayerson, Rhoda Mayerson and Lynn Landis.

No one there could be described as tall muscly blond nor capable of providing mind blowing sex

FUCK YOU R243. We have hosted some of the best, hottest orgies known to man/woman/transkind!

Just because Prince Charming was claimed to be "tall muscly blond" and the sex "mind blowing" does not make it so. Perhaps it was just a lot of steam and poppers that created the illusion.

Okay, something not Follies related... in a recent New Yorker interview, Audra McDonald briefly discusses receiving a very frosty reception from a star she admired who came backstage after Master Class. Audra confesses she withered in the star's presence and was later reprimanded by Zoe Caldwell for doing so - "If people don’t like me, that is fine. I don’t give them my power.” After the next performance, Caldwell introduced her to Lauren Bacall backstage and McDonald, "was myself: I had my presence and my power. And then the next night, when I came upstairs, Zoe said, 'That’s how you do it.' I’ve never forgotten that. Never."

Audra doesn't mention the star but says they've "since had lovely interactions... it's all good!" Any guesses? Since we can rule out Miss Betty Bacall, my first thought was Streisand.

R245, And it was Chicago.

LuPone, r246.

When you meet a man in Chicago, you never, never, know what business he's in. He might be, my dear, some high financier. Take my word, my dear. It's 10 to 1, he isn't.

The most current Broadway gossip I have is that Julia Marlowe hit me in the head with a fondue pot...

You just might win a (Virtual) Tony for that r250.

R250, what's the latest on Charlotte Cushman?

Was that a cooking review, R250?

Has Audra ever done an Encores show?

Yvonne's was much rounder.

R255, Rounder and firmer.

[quote]Audra doesn't mention the star but says they've "since had lovely interactions... it's all good!" Any guesses? Since we can rule out Miss Betty Bacall, my first thought was Streisand.

My first thought was Diana Ross. Ross would see Audra as competition.

My first thought was Meryl. But she'd never do that. she's too nice. My second guess would be Glennie.

It was Lizabeth Scott.

Jasmine Guy?

Why should I speak to some young girl who was in the chorus? If your name isn't over the title, I'm not obliged to acknowledge your presence.

CHICAGO starring Bonnie Franklin and Pia Zadora really would have been something!

R257, I doubt if Master Class would interest Miss Ross. And Audra mentioned subsequent interactions, so it's most likely a NYC/Broadway based person.

My guess would also be Patti, known to be cunty.

I don't think it was Patti because they both went to Juilliard. I think it's a law that Juilliard alum have to acknowledge each other.

[quote]Audra McDonald briefly discusses receiving a very frosty reception from a star she admired who came backstage after Master Class.

It's totally Betty Buckley

But Acting probably look down on Singing/Opera.

Jennifer Holliday?

[quote]Okay, something not Follies related... in a recent New Yorker interview, Audra McDonald briefly discusses receiving a very frosty reception from a star she admired who came backstage after Master Class.

I don't understand this. If the person came backstage to see Audra, why wouldn't she be the one doing the receiving? How do you receive a "very frosty reception" from someone who's visiting you? And if the person took the trouble to visit, wouldn't she have already been an admirer?

Master Class starred Zoe Caldwell. Audra was a co-star/featured.

Debbie Allen?

[quote]If the person came backstage to see Audra, why wouldn't she be the one doing the receiving?

The star came backstage to see Zoe Caldwell. Audra was just skulking in the hallway trying to meet famous people.

Eve Harrington lives in her!

Eve Harrington lives in her!

Was Audra heavy back during Master Class? I could see Faye not wanting to look at a fattie.

Does anyone else think this whole pandemic started and closed Broadway because that Mary Sunshine alternate was unjustly fires?

I have to wonder - -

^^ FIRED. Not “fires” !

Harriet Harris should fire her stylist at R276. That outfit does nothing for her.

[quote] Was Audra heavy back during Master Class?

no

[quote]Was Audra heavy back during Master Class?

It's hard to tell because her costume was "roomy". But Chipotle hadn't hit the NYC market back then.

wahhh-WAHHHH...

There's never much actual gossip on these threads....which is fine.

Except for the tiresome people who always whine about wanting stories about big dicked chorus boys doing each other. Like one of them is, post dicking, going to immediately run to DL to report on the dicking they just received.

There were Broadway Sex threads made for those people. Did they keep them running, like these theatre threads? No, they did not.

About the first hundred or two of these had real gossip.

But when something gets this popular, it will get diluted.

Well, you got your Michael Moore nudes three years after they were first mentioned. Hold tight.

What’s with all the Adam Jacobs nudes floating around? He’s obviously some sort of exhibitionist since he’s supposedly straight and married. I preferred Telly in Aladdin to be honest.

We thought Colin Donnell was straight too...

Why did Woodard come back to do the revival with the original cast? The How You Baby number was terrific. And she did Keeping out of Mischief straight. It was a great show and I saw it many times. Without the original cast and that ingenious funny staging I can't see the point.

By the way the obc was done too early in the run. The performances got better.

And how did a white show like SNL so many years later get away with Black Jeopardy which is hilarious in its crude stereotypes.

I have some gossip; there are a lot of gays in the “Broadway Community”... both onstage, and OFF!

(Not so many lezzies, though.)

PROOF!

Colin Donnell was on Stephen Ammell's podcast recently. Donnell is very fond of a fussy cocktail after lunch. Maybe he can play the Luckinbill role in the next Boys in the Band revival...

R289, she liked the other actors? She needed the money? She enjoyed the role even though it was a stereotype?

OBC were traditionally recorded the Sunday after opening, and I am guessing that a show in the 70s would probably would adhere to the schedule.

"And how did a white show like SNL so many years later get away with Black Jeopardy which is hilarious in its crude stereotypes." Has SNL ever drawn much of a black audience? It always seemed aimed at white people.

I have you beat, r91. I actually knew the other of this scintillating tome...

^

r291

That book came out the same year as CABARET?! The writer worked fast.

So sue me... I'm still waitin' for some real proof of Max Von Essen's alleged tinymeat.

And did we ever decide who was originally slated for Roxie at Encores? Liza steppin' out after steppin' in for Gwen? Sandy Duncan absent without leave from the Easter Parade? Bebe's old dance hall chum Debbie Allen between TV directing gigs?

Sandy Duncan's career was already pretty cold by the mid 1990s, right?

Dammit, author!

Audra at Carnegie Hall.

Strike while the iron's hot, r296! Unfortunately I no longer have my copy but it was basically a porn bio of beloved singing movie star...Julie Goodman. Young Julie gets her big movie breakout role in a musicalized fairy tale where she sings her signature song...Beyond the Sunset. So the rest of the book details her career ups and downs and turbulent personal life which seemed to to include many sexual rendezvous. All written in explicit '70s porn prose. Unfortunately, poor Julie comes to her demise at the end, choking to death while performing fellatio on a member which proved to be...too big.

Chita - A Legendary Celebration.

[Quote] poor Julie comes to her demise at the end, choking to death while performing fellatio on a member which proved to be...too big.

It obviously wasn't inspired by me.

Hello, Dolly! with Carol Channing.

The best show on black stereotypes was "The Colored Museum" by George C. Wolfe. It's the best thing he's ever done. The wig skit alone was worth the price of admission.

R290 I am fascinated by that fact that there are no, or few theater lesbians where as when you look at Hollywood there seem to be a decent amount hiding in front of and behind the camera.

I work in Hollywood and my gaydar hasn’t ever been great when it comes to women but I find it pinging quite a lot at work. I do have to say though some I’ve spotted, according to me anyway, don’t know they are homos.

r303 - That's why you're still with us, Betty Lynn, and poor Julie isn't.

[quote] r294 I have you beat, [R291]. I actually knew the other of this scintillating tome...

Preston Harriman - the author of THE PRETTIEST BOY IN DALLAS (???)

My goodness, you [italic]do[/italic] move in elevated circles!

Perhaps you can recount the (sizzling) plot of JULIE for us? Does it have potential for the legitimate theater?

Carol Channing was a Black woman.

Was Cheryl Crawford the most important theatre lesbian?

[quote]Sandy Duncan's career was already pretty cold by the mid 1990s, right?

Sandy Duncan's career was already pretty cold by the late 1970s. That's why she had to steal Valerie Harper's sitcom out from under her in the late 1980s.

R309, 50%

R309, Rumors of black heritage followed Dinah Shore for decades.

[quote]R308 Perhaps you can recount the (sizzling) plot of JULIE for us? Does it have potential for the legitimate theater?

I’m sorry - I now see you did just that in R301

Are the stage rights available? Someone had better snap them up.

[quote] Unfortunately, poor Julie comes to her demise at the end, choking to death while performing fellatio on a member which proved to be...too big.

SPOILER ALERT, please!

Late in life, Carol Channing reclaimed her black roots.

I’ll take it r312

What a way to go, R301. What a way to go!!!

What a way to go!

Additional works by Preston Harriman:

Showgirl / Bi-Sexuality ... Normal or Not? / Sheila / Oriental Orgies / The Evil Tongue / From Adultery to Analism / New Documented Studies of Oral Aunts / Three-Way Sex / AC-DC Lover / Analism Among the Rich / Anal Girl / Analism Among the Poor / Incest: Brothers and Brothers / Black and White Love / Sex and the Supernatural / The Art of Masturbation

So prolific!

Does anyone have a copy of the stage version of "Little Shop Of Horrors" that was filmed for the Japanese? Could you load it onto YouTube? I would greatly appreciate it. TIA!

Hey, r320, they paid well and supplemented his legitimate writing jobs.

Wow, thanks for posting that R304. I saw that revival and was stunned at Channing razor-sharp comedy timing, even if she did seem a little frail. But watching that video now, it almost seems like a bizarre Kabuki performance. She really was a creature of the stage only.

A local theater is offering a live streaming version of "Greater Tuna," a show I've always enjoyed. But I wonder how much I'd enjoy it via streaming. I guess I should give it a try if only to support the theater. I'll be curious to see how they do it. I hope it's not just a staged reading.

Okay, which one of you bitches signed up for this?

Regarding the DOLLY video at R304. I think it was 1996 not 1997. The show toured the country in 1994-1995, opened on Broadway in October 1995 and closed in January 1996. Then it went back out on the road (playing decidedly smaller cities) until it finally closed in Austin, TX in February 1997.

Although title card at the beginning identifies the show dates as Tuesday December 17 through Thursday, December 19, (dates which fell in 1996), in Channing's curtain speech she says they were in Melbourne, FL, which IBDB says the show played the following week.

To the best of my knowledge, the upcoming 'grand world tour' she talks about (China, Japan, Bangkok) never happened. Does anyone know if this was planned at the start and never came together, or was it just a bit of wishful thinking on Channing's part?

R325 I wouldn't necessarily ask Ms. Buckley advice on how to do a comedy song though.

Is Karen Morrow doing her classes online now as well?

The person who snubbed Audra was Barbra Streisand.

[quote]The person who snubbed Audra was Barbra Streisand.

But why would she mention it? Barbra snubs everyone. It's what she does.

Were Streisand and Caldwell friends? Did she view Audra as an interloper?

They were lesbian lovers.

When did Mandy Patinkin leave The Secret Garden and when did Audra come in as a replacement? Maybe both Audra and Barbra had worked with Mandy Patinkin and Audra wanted to chat to Barbra about that.

[quote] The best show on black stereotypes was "The Colored Museum" by George C. Wolfe. It's the best thing he's ever done. The wig skit alone was worth the price of admission

Cooking with Aunt Ethel was pretty fucking on point. And the gay scene was pretty good too.

Loved that show.

Lucy was going to do The Best Little Whorehouse In Texas but Dolly Parton talked her out of it.

I heard it was Jessie.

Uncle Jessie?

[quote]Sandy Duncan's career was already pretty cold by the mid 1990s, right?

Certainly, I don't think anyone still considered her a "big star" by that time, and those were the words Reinking used to describe whoever was supposed to play Roxie. But I really can't imagine Liza was seriously planning to do it at that time, unless the original plan was that Roxie's choreography would be greatly simplified -- which would also include the finale with Velma, of course.

Maybe Debbie Allen?

Liza looked great in 1992. Was 1995 very different?

Liza would have never stooped to doing Encores. Lorna kept calling and asking if they had cast the role yet.

It's still a shame Liza never committed to a run of Gypsy. I'd heard she was approached for the Tyne Daly revival, but turned them down because she thought it'd be too exhausting. She'd have been great in the part.

Didn't Liza go to Betty Ford sometime in the latter half of the 1980s? She likely realized that her sobriety would be challenged by another Broadway show. She also got another chance at a pop recording career via Pet Shop Boys.

[quote]I'd heard she was approached for the Tyne Daly revival, but turned them down because she thought it'd be too exhausting.

Yeah, she was in between pharmacies at that time. Very difficult time for her.

BTW, the chilly reception Audra initially received was from Barbra Joan Streisand.

R345, Miss Streisand is always most gracious.

[quote]Cooking with Aunt Ethel was pretty fucking on point.

I have sufficient.

R287 Are there really nudes of Adam Jacobs?

I can confirm Liza was supposed to be Roxie at Encores. She had to pull out because of a lucrative concert booking in Florida...they initially agreed to release her, then threatened to sue if she didn't show. The team (correctly) feel like it was for the best, as the L*I*Z*A factor would have overshadowed the show itself. She would never have transferred with the show to Broadway, which would have cost them their momentum and buzz.

Donna M and Ann Reinking had a misunderstanding that soured their relationship:. The Weisslers decided Donna needed to audition. Annie didn't show up because she thought it would be an obvious slam dunk hire and that her presence wasn't needed. Donna took offence to her not being there and refused to audition.

Chita has played Roxie in various in the revival in a few cities, but refused to come to Broadway in the role out of deference to Gwen (who was still alive at the time). Neither she or Gwen thought much of Walter Bobbie's direction of the revival, and openly said so to anyone who would listen.

Bebe is insanely protective of the show. Prior to her surgeries, she would openly mock the stunt-cast Roxies who didn't have the cartwheel or a clean line. She has had some dangerous experiences with unstable fans, and that has made her permanently wary of dealing with them.

Jim Borstelman had the most luscious Broadway ass of all time.

Any other questions?

Wow R349 that was the best post I’ve read here in a while!

R349, do you know any details of Bebe’s bad fan experiences?

[quote]Jim Borstelman had the most luscious Broadway ass of all time.

...and one of the sweetest guys I ever worked with. I wonder where he is now? He is featured fairly prominently in this video of Chicago's opening number. Also, Michael Berresse as Fred Casely.

Borle is hot as fuk, has one of the biggest followings of all bway stars....kool cat and sexy !!! face included u jealous skunt.

Must have been a hundred girls lined up by the stage door after his last two plays to get his autograph and give him their panties, the man is loved.

omg babs looks like shite there ! yikes.

R338, the choreography would not need to be simplified because it did not yet exist! Liza would have been the first one. (My guess is that the choreography would have been even further from Fosse than it is now.)

BTW--how long after the revival closes do you think it will be till we see a production with the original Fosse choreography? Whenever you see clips of the original choreography, it is so much better. Part of the reason Hot Honey lands is because after an evening of imitation Fosse, we finally get to see the real thing.

Thanks for posting that clip R352. The ecstatic Encores audience reaction to that production was one of the most thrilling experiences I’ve had in the theater. I read an interview with Kander and Ebb where they were taken totally by surprise by the acclaim. They thought their then current Steel Pier would get all the love, not the decades-old Chicago.

Ann Reinking is in her element in the clip of "Roxie" from Encores. What the hell happened by the time she reached Broadway? Her Roxie Hart became... odd.

I've seen Christian Borle both onstage many times and just on the street (though never had the nerve to speak to him). I agree he's hot.

[quote] It's still a shame Liza never committed to a run of Gypsy. I'd heard she was approached for the Tyne Daly revival, but turned them down because she thought it'd be too exhausting. She'd have been great in the part.

Can you imagine the nightly ovation that would have erupted when she got to the "m-m-mama" section of Rose's Turn?

R358, she wasn't a bad Roxie in 1977. But she was no Gwen Verdon, either. And she didn't really keep up with Lenora Nemetz who was, in many ways, even better than Chita Rivera.

It is one of the great privileges of my theater going career to see Chita Rivera dance on many occasions. But in CHICAGO, when dancing with Gwen Verdon, it was clear who was the better Fosse dancer. The style came naturally to Verdon, but not really to Rivera. You can see it in the videos. They are not in perfect harmony.

Lenora Nemetz nails the Fosse style, too. She nailed it in CHICAGO and a few years after that she did it again when NYCO did a summer production of PAJAMA GAME and she played Gladys. I used to work with someone who worked on the original run of CHICAGO. She told me that Fosse loved Lenora Nemetz. He loved her dancing and her characterizations and he thought she was great in the show. She covered both Roxie and Velma and went on in both roles.

I only saw her as Velma. I would have loved to see what she did with Roxie, too.

[Quote] She told me that Fosse loved Lenora Nemetz. He loved her dancing and her characterizations and he thought she was great in the show. She covered both Roxie and Velma and went on in both roles.

Why didn't he try to make her a star?

He was fucking Ann Reinking at the time. His star making efforts went to her.

Thanks for the juicy tidbits, R349! Pokin' around online, I found a Liza concert in Miami (dated as February '96) but nothing from later in the spring. She still looks in pretty good shape but does sound tired and some of the big money notes are not her best. Tour life can be a real bitch though. I can only imagine she would have been truly sensational at Encores but would never have transferred with it to Broadway.

I hope Reinking and McKeckhnie have mended things. In that Behind the Curtain interview, Ann speaks highly of Donna saying she was a big help in learning the "Music & the Mirror" choreography in the same way Gwen taught her "If My Friends Could See Me Now." The prima ballerina must pass her Gisele on to the next star dancer.

Another natural Roxie that never was is Cady Huffman. I saw her in a cabaret a few years back where she mentioned being Karen Ziemba's stand-by in Steel Pier but thankfully never had to go on as she never learned the part with all the constant changes of a troubled show. She threw off a glib "In case you were wondering why I never did the Chicago revival... ya got your answer!" In another bit of patter, Huffman admits some of The Producers creative team did not want her for Ulla, but after the first reading Mel Brooks approached her and said, "kid, the part's your's if ya want it." More Steel Pier bad blood; this time with Stro?

[Quote] She threw off a glib "In case you were wondering why I never did the Chicago revival... ya got your answer!"

I don't understand. Is she saying the Chicago revival was in constant flux as well? I know they cut down the choreography for various Roxies but that makes no sense for why Huffman would avoid the production rather than play the part.

I took it to mean she'd pissed off Fred Ebb.

Do you mean John Kander?

I hope COMPANY survives the current shutdown. I'd love to see Claybourne Elder again. He was in Encores! DO I HEAR A WALTZ as Eddie Yaeger, the philandering husband and I thought he was quite good, especially in "We're Gonna Be Alright" . Wish I'd seen him in his skivvies at 54 Below. He fills out his shorts quite nicely. Lucky husband who gets to tap that every night.

I can concur about the Encores! Chicago and its ecstatic audience reaction on opening night. I think it was the first Encores! production that was fully staged, without scripts, which was a huge surprise. And the audience was welcoming back an old friend. It was so electrifying that I tried to get a seat for later in the week, but by that time word had spread and there was none to be found.

Sigh. Remember when anything at ENCORES could actually be an "event?"

It'll be interesting to see next year (?) whether they stay the current course (ie, increasingly irrelevant productions from a limited catalogue for 90-year-old subscribers) or take the opportunity to freshen up a bit.

r368, You could have seen pretty nearly all of Claybourne in Signature's (DC)production of Passion a year or so ago. He also sings well, but his acting is somewhere between wooden and self-conscious.

R371 who did he play?

Whatever you think of his looks (I generally don't...) Christian Borle is talented but he is not a Bway star, and never will be.

He had his breakout moment after PETER AND THE STARCATCHER off-Bway and SMASH on TV--suddenly he was everywhere. But he couldn't save SOMETHING ROTTEN and couldn't really sell CHARLIE & THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY or the FALSETTOS revival. (Andrew Rannells is not a Bway star, either, not really.)

Borle may be a solid performer, but he's stuck in that Will Chase/Andy Karl-middle ground of leading men. None of them really sells tickets or generates too much interest.

He was Giorgio, r372.

Actor John C. McGinley on His Charlie Sheen Story - 11/1/16

I've been to ever Encores performance. I only remember two other times when the Encores audience went as wild with enthusiasm as they did for Chicago. One was for Boys From Syracuse, especially after "Sing For Your Supper." That made it doubly infuriating that the later Roundabout revisal (with an abysmal new book by Nicky Silver) was so bad. The other time the Encores crowd went wild was for Pal Joey when they welcomed Miss Patti back to NY after her awful experience with Andrew Lloyd-Webber. The response to Most Happy Fella was maybe close in terms of audience reaction. And the worst was Olympia Dukakis having trouble reading the script in her hand while she massacred 70 Girls 70.

That was a good anecdote, R375. Good on McGinley for realizing: yes, you were an arrogant dick for dismissing your understudy when you breezed into the theatre at the last minute.

If I were his onstage co-star, I would have killed him for fucking up like that.

My favourite understudy story involves Thelma Carpenter, who stood by (and subbed) for Pearl Bailey in "Hello, Dolly." Bailey was less than professional and one time she showed up after the performance had begun and Carpenter was already on stage as Dolly. As Bailey motioned to get Carpenter's attention, Thelma slowly turned her head to the wings and mouthed "Fuck you."

[quote]I can confirm Liza was supposed to be Roxie at Encores. She had to pull out because of a lucrative concert booking in Florida...they initially agreed to release her, then threatened to sue if she didn't show. The team (correctly) feel like it was for the best, as the L*I*Z*A factor would have overshadowed the show itself. She would never have transferred with the show to Broadway, which would have cost them their momentum and buzz.

R349, all of that sounds credible, except would Liza honestly have been able to perform the kind of choreography required for CHICAGO in 1995? Or were they planning to make it less strenuous for her? I just checked, and apparently she didn't have her hip replacement surgery till a few years later, but I assume her bad hips had already affected her dancing ability. I don't remember, were there plans afoot to move the Encores! production to Broadway from the beginning, or did that only happen after the huge success at City Center? Because, yes, if plans for a Broadway transfer were afoot from the beginning, it would have been a big mistake to get Liza for Encores!, because she would indeed have overshadowed the production -- and when she didn't continue on to Broadway (as she wouldn't have), I imagine a lot of potential ticket buyers would have said, "I don't want to see the show without her."

I remember CHICAGO at Encores. It certainly was not pulled together in the customary amount of time, whether or not anyone acknowledges plan for a move to Broadway:

[quote]The Encores! event is a stripped-down version of a hit musical that is meant to showcase the music over the costumes, staging and acting. The sets are minimal and the orchestra is enhanced. Each cast gets eight days of rehearsal and one dress rehearsal for the production, which lasts for five performances.

Haven't they added a couple of performances in recent years? Regardless, the last few productions I saw in, by contrast, looked, felt, and sounded like 8 days of rehearsal and 1 of dress.

Three more Encores performances that were rapturously received by the audiences. All involved Donna Murphy. One was Wonderful Town and another was Follies. The third was her version of “I Happen to like New York” at an Encores special event after 9/11. The audience went wild after she finished that song.

Donna Murphy is everything.

Everything but on key.

Donna Murphy was the standout of Encores' very well done Anyone Can Whistle, a show which will probably never receive a full scale revival.

My personal favorite Encores moment was Lillias White in Purlie who after being the only principle actor off book for both songs and book scenes went up on her dialogue at one point in Act II, slowly sauntered over to peak at Blair Underwood's script, walked back to her mark, and finished the line.

Can anyone confirm Underwood was a last minute replacement for Wayne Brady? Also, I remember being very excited to see Anika Noni Rose but disappointed she unfortunately was not able to magically sound like Melba Moore singing "I Got Love."

Fantasia Barrino would be perfect for Purlie.

I went to a cast party in Soho in the early 80’s, where I was chatting with a young lady who told me she’d been in “The Act.” When I asked her what that was like, she said, “I’ve never seen anyone like Liza Minelli. She used to do nine lines of coke during her costume changes!”

"One Touch of Venus" was wonderful and it really served the mission of bringing back seldom heard scores in a way we could understand and appreciate them the authors' work.

r372 and he looked like this

Is Liza bipolar?

What led to Liza's hip surgery? Did she fall at home or at some club, or was it by doing too much demanding choreography in one of her shows?

Donna happens to love New York...

R349, I'm not sure I get the situation. If Ann decided not to be there, did Donna just show up at the audition and find that out? As such, then she decided not to audition? I also think it's strange that Ann wouldn't be there to lend support to the person who she claimed helped her out.

I would think there would be a high percentage of ageing dancers in need of hip replacements, r390.

ENCORES could do much worse than to beg Donna to come back--and let her pick a show to stage.

They really suffer from a lack of star power in recent seasons.

Donna Murphy, that is.

Donna McKechnie is fun and seems like a nice lady, but I think she would pretty much show up to a supermarket opening if you invited her.

Is Donna McKechnie richer than God?

[quote]Donna M and Ann Reinking had a misunderstanding that soured their relationship:. The Weisslers decided Donna needed to audition.

They considered Donna Murphy for Roxie?

[quote]The third was her version of “I Happen to like New York” at an Encores special event after 9/11. The audience went wild after she finished that song.

I was also there and it was a thrilling moment. Although, Donna messed up. When she finished and left the stage, the crowd went wild. The conductor was looking offstage to see if she would return to the stage (I think she could have quickly figured out an encore with that number). Her one mistake was that she did not return to the stage, even to accept another bow. She really could have returned to the stage the crowd was that wild.

Maybe she felt returning for another bow would be making the moment about her when arguably the response was more about New York.

[quote]Maybe she felt returning for another bow would be making the moment about her when arguably the response was more about New York.

Patti LuPone would have returned to the stage.

She would also have sung "Ihapntalienewyah,billy!"

[quote]She would also have sung "Ihapntalienewyah,billy!"

But at least you could hear her.

I was there when Murphy sang that as well, but I wasn't as enamoured of her as others. She sang it sooooo slowly, it made me a bit crazy.

Buck would never have returned to the stage.

[quote]I was there when Murphy sang that as well, but I wasn't as enamoured of her as others. She sang it sooooo slowly, it made me a bit crazy.

I don't recall her "I Happen to Like New York" being especially slow at all. Whatever, the performance was electric. Didn't she reprise it for some other event, maybe one of the fundraisers for BC/EFA or some other organization like that? I seem to remember that she did.

I have a friend who dated Jim Borstelman. Said he was a sweet guy with the hottest ass. His nickname was "Killer."

Re important theatre lesbians, besides Cheryl Crawford, add Ruth Mitchell, Florence Klotz, and Tharon Musser. Plus Katherine Cornell, who was a huge star in the 30s-40s-50s.

Yes. Smokin' hot!

Yes. Smokin' hot!

It looks like he's still doin' it, r408/r409. Kudos to Jim. (Everyone should aspire to being more than a hot ass.)

I was a big theatre lesbian the last time I looked.

Technically, r349, Jim Borstelman still has a luscious Broadway ass. There's just so much more of it (and everything else).

School for Scandal - Act One.

School for Scandal - Act Two.

Jesus people -Borstelmann was doing Chicago a quarter of a century ago! Give the guy a break. Most of us were thinner and hotter 25 years ago. Some of us were even younger 25 years ago.

Drawing the Line.

[quote]I don't recall her "I Happen to Like New York" being especially slow at all.

She didn't do it as jaunty as it's usually performed. It was more ballad than up-tempo.

Wasn't it written to be performed like that?

Encores did THE NEW YORKERS and I believe they used the original orchestrations. I can't remember the woman who sang it, but she did a nice job, and sang it more like a ballad (I would describe it as an anthem). Not uptempo.

How the hell could anyone turn that song into an up tempo song? It's not. The rhythms are not conducive to it, nor is the mood of the song. It would have to be restructured by an expert musical arranger (with no taste.)

Did you feel the same about "I Can't Give You Anything But Love"?

Bobby Short's has a little pep.

Harold Lang enjoys the stink of it.

It was one of the Strallens, r418, who sang it in The New Yorkers; she sang it as a ballad, with a lot of emphasis. I don't think I've ever heard it performed otherwise.

THIS JUST IN: 10 out of 12s are racist and uphold white supremacy.

Who is the "Love For Sale" actress?

Strallen's full recording.

Thanks for the THE NEW YORKERS links. I'd forgotten how much I enjoyed that production.

It felt much more like a revue than an actual musical, but some of those songs are gems.

'Dyke, ya know."

"and it really served the mission of bringing back seldom heard scores in a way we could understand and appreciate them the authors' work."

It's a scandal that, other than NO, NO NANETTE, Vincent Youmans' adventurous scores haven't gotten an airing or any love at all.

Such a bouncy tune, r420!

Charlayne Woodard has asked for that goofy black girl vocal to be removed from YouTube. Grab it while you can.

Charlayne played a kinda goofy girl in "Cindy" a black musical tv version of "Cinderella" opposite dreamy Clifton Davis if I recall. Maybe that national attention also helped her get "Ain't Misbehavin'". It's not like she's known for those kinds of roles after that. She also started writing for herself and got them produced, for which she should be proud. Those goofy girl roles helped get her to where she could get herself produced, so why dismiss her past, especially when "Ain't Misbehavin'" was such a good show?

Re: “I Happen to Like New York”-I happen to hate that song.

Well, you'd probably understand if you'd come up being the gay butt of the joke.

Not all of those songs are from The New Yorkers. WTF was Encores thinking?

R434, she did not dismiss it. As others have said, she did a reunion.

You can say that your role was stereotypical, while not dismissing it.

Lots of actors have acknowledged playing limited characters without dismissing their past. Do you think the Three Stooges thought they were playing Hamlet?

[quote] Not all of those songs are from The New Yorkers. WTF was Encores thinking?

Who cares? They came up with a great show. The book was almost completely rewritten, too. The original is just awful.

R418, Liza killed it at this Carnegie Hall rehearsal.

Judy Garland "I Happen to Like New York" 1960 studio recording

Judy Garland "I Happen to Like New York" 1963 television special

[quote]It's a scandal that, other than NO, NO NANETTE, Vincent Youmans' adventurous scores haven't gotten an airing or any love at all.

Especially since he was such a gifted human!

Which other Vincent Youmans scores would they produce? "Hit the Deck" would need serious rewriting to fix a very racist aspect of the original (Goodspeed did do it in the 1970s). "Rainbow" has a great score, but again, needs a new book. Forget about "Smiles" or "Great Day" or "Wildflower."

[quote]Re important theatre lesbians, besides Cheryl Crawford, add Ruth Mitchell, Florence Klotz, and Tharon Musser. Plus Katherine Cornell, who was a huge star in the 30s-40s-50s.

Don't forget about me!

Anyone here besides me old enough to have seen the Goodspeed revival of "Very Good Eddie" when it move to Broadway? I loved it. Of course, these old shows played in a different time, but I want to hear them.

"No, No, Nanette!" is from 1920, but when Encores presented the show, it used the 1970 renovation that made a lot of changes in the score and was completely re-orchestrated for modern ears. The 1920 version is what should have done. The 1970 version is well recorded with a great Broadway cast album and a London cast album and can frequently be seen in summer theaters across the country. It would be so wonderful to hear these shows in their original form.

Don't forget me, R445!

Do the 1920s orchestrations still exist?

Yes, I saw the Goodspeed revival of Very Good Eddie when it transferred to Broadway. It was terrific fun and had a national tour. Whatever happened to Charles Repole?

R445, Or me!

Would Rob Fisher have been able to "swing" that Coffee Club Orchestra of his for those golden oldies? We already know that Kathleen Marshall had zero imagination for choreographing any of the Encores shows.

I do not know if the original Nanette orchestration still exists. But years ago, I saw a published version of the score in a library. Half of the music was different than the 1970 revival.

Has anyone ever revived Nanette's sequel, Yes, Yes, Yvette?

They should revise it as "Yes, Yes, Von Essen."

I know there were talks of NEUTRAL NANETTE...

but it didn’t have enough “pop”

How can I watch Broadway Bares? It's past 9:30 and I'm on Playbill, but nada.

"Which other Vincent Youmans scores would they produce? "Hit the Deck" would need serious rewriting to fix a very racist aspect of the original (Goodspeed did do it in the 1970s). "Rainbow" has a great score, but again, needs a new book. Forget about "Smiles" or "Great Day" or "Wildflower.""

So they need a new book, so what? The point is, these shows are America's legacy and these songs are part of the Great American Songbook. My God, Great Day can boast its title song and Without A Song, which can share pride of place with Through The Years as one of the greatest songs ever written for the stage. Present them in a revue or a concert. The only thing that matters is that the art lives on.

Re: Bares. I found it on BroadwayCares.org/Bare

So Bares is going to be nothing but videos of past routines? I bailed........

IBDB has a list of the songs in the original NO, NO NANETTE, and indeed, it seems several songs were dropped and several others added for the 1971 revisal. See link.

"I Happen to Like New York" is certainly not an up-tune by any stretch of the imagination, but I wouldn't exactly describe it as a ballad, either. I'd say it's more of an early 1930s Broadway equivalent of a power ballad.

If one of the past routines is gym toned Chris Sieber and his ex, let me know...

Goodness, those BWAY BARES dancers are rather... bare.

Mother and I just sat down after dinner to watch, expecting to see a soft-shoe routine, or perhaps a high-spirited tap number!

I think Charles Repole directs and also taught at Queens College. He replaced Austin Pendleton in "Doubles" on Broadway which meant his character was full-frontal naked, and who I would have rather seen than Pendleton.

Is anyone else watching the BWAY BARES? Mother did enjoy the dogs & leashes dance routine, though I'm certain she didn't understand it.

I know I didn't.

Any whip routines?

I can't get Broadway Bares to load at either the Broadway Cares site or at youtube. Just that damn revolving circle.

Must be much more popular than they were expecting and the servers are overloaded.

Encores was correct to do the 1971 Nanette version. John McGlinn did a concert of the original, with the original orchestrations, in 1986. Jane Connell was Pauline the Maid, Rebecca Luker was Nanette, Judy Kaye was Lucille, & George Dvorsky was Tom. It was only so-so, & the orchestrations were snoozeworthy. Bert Shevelove at al performed a miracle with it in 1971. It would have been one Encores’ biggest flops if they’d done the 1925 version, instead of one of its biggest hits.

Meh, I prefer pron to BB, so tacky and desperate.

What's tacky about it?

Have you watched it?

Here’s the overture from McGlinn’s concert of Nanette. For that matter, several songs with original orchestrations were recorded with the London cast & reissued as an LP in 1971 to cash in on the brief “Nanette” craze.

Broadway Bares is like the strippers in Gypsy. All trying to outdo the others, never realizing that they're all shit. The first year or so was clever, but it never should have become an annual event.

[quote] Broadway Bares is like the strippers in Gypsy.

Well, they are both burlesque...

[quote]Broadway Bares . . . . never should have become an annual event.

Over the years it has raised millions to fight AIDS and care for its sufferers. Hush your mouth.

[quote]... to fight AIDS and care for its sufferers.

Please do not reduce all people living with AIDS and with HIV down to a stereotype. People living with this virus and those who care about them long ago fought and won the battle for the entirety of their humanity and their individuality to be recognized. We long ago got rid of "AIDS sufferers" or "AIDS victims" or "AIDS patients." Please don't bring these insensitive terms back. Please. They are people. People living with HIV and AIDS.

[quote]... to fight AIDS and care for its sufferers.

Please do not reduce all people living with AIDS and with HIV down to a stereotype. People living with this virus and those who care about them long ago fought and won the battle for the entirety of their humanity and their individuality to be recognized. We long ago got rid of "AIDS sufferers" or "AIDS victims" or "AIDS patients." Please don't bring these insensitive terms back. Please. They are people. People living with HIV and AIDS.

Thanks for that link, R471. Somehow I had completely missed that the performance of the original score had ever taken place. What a treat to hear some of it on YouTube.

The performances there make it clear that Encores should have done the original version. Encores should not be structured to need "a hit." We already excuse it from paying taxes so that it can perform a service to the public.

The 1971 version is really a 1971 show. Burt Shevelove's book is well nigh perfect. Every syllable is in its exact place. Just say those lines and don't get in the way. Success is guaranteed. Of course, there are rarely more than about 7 lines before the next musical number begins. And the 1971 score is cherry picked with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. Everything one would want in a commercial production on Broadway. But the non-profit organization doing a few performances of no longer familiar work, should have gone with the no longer familiar version of No, No, Nanette!

A billion performances of it late, what a wonderful thing to hear how "Tea for Two" was originally conceived and presented to the world.

The 1971 No No Nanette was essentially a new work. The rewrites, orchestrations, altered songstack went far beyond "revival."

It was more of a new work based on an older one.

The 1967 television "Kismet," with Jose Ferrer, Barbara Eden and Anna Maria Alberghetti.

When did Home Video become a possibility? I've read that CD players, while not perfected or ready for the market until the 1980s, were on the horizon from the early/mid 1970s.

Imagine if someone had the forethought that, say, some of the color TV "spectaculars" might have a life beyond their initial broadcasts...

A lot of the TV "spectaculars" survive, but only in the form of black-and-white kinescopes, which were broadcast to the West Coast. Mary Martin's "Peter Pan" was broadcast live in 1955 and again in 1956, before it was finally videotaped in color in 1960 so it could be shown in repeat broadcasts. The 1955 and 1956 versions were also broadcast in color, but only B&W kinescopes survive. Rodgers and Hammerstein's 1957 "Cinderella" with Julie Andrews was another color broadcast that survives only in B&W.

On the one hand, I certainly understand the argument that Encores! ideally should only do shows in their original form, and I tend to agree in general. But in the specific case of NO, NO NANETTE, I think the audience, and probably the critics as well, would have been terribly disappointed by the original version, precisely because it's so much different from the revisal and because it's so dated in so many ways, including the orchestrations.

I also generally agree that Encores! ideally should not be structured to need a hit, but realistically, you can't ignore the size of that huge theater, with all of those seats to fill. Sadly, there were LOTS of empty seats for THE GOLDEN APPLE when they did that show, for example. I think in recent years they have tried to strike a balance by choosing some big, popular titles that they expect to be big sellers, to allow them to also do some other shows (like THE GOLDEN APPLE) that more closely fulfill their original mission statement but are not expected to sell that many tickets.

What makes the orchestrations dated?

I too like the orchestrations on that McGlinn recording and the original London recordings. Does anyone know who did them? But I doubt seriously they still survive and I'm sure it would be an expensive and time consuming job to try to recreate them. Because of that and the other reasons given above, I agree with Encores! choice to revive the revisal, which is a pretty sweet thing itself.

Better for Encores to do a faithful rendition of THE GOLDEN APPLE (for all its numerous flaws) than another abortion of an evening like HEY LOOK ME OVER! which was a mashup of unrelated numbers from unrelated musicals (that included, inexplicably, a 20+ minute excerpt from GREENWILLOW).

I have colleagues who decided not to renew their longstanding subscriptions based on that evening. I'm really glad Encores is under new management.

Like mother, like....

I like Liza, but without her folks, she'd be a Equity lounge waiting outside with the Non-Equity people, at the outset of her career. Then she'd maybe do some supporting roles in summer stock.

at Equity lounge

[quote]I too like the orchestrations on that McGlinn recording and the original London recordings. Does anyone know who did them? But I doubt seriously they still survive and I'm sure it would be an expensive and time consuming job to try to recreate them.

I don't understand -- didn't someone have to recreate them for the McGlinn concert? Or maybe they do survive? That said, I'm the one who called the original orchestrations dated, by which I mean that they're very simple and much less lush compared to the '71 orchestrations. It's great to hear the originals for historical purposes, but even if you prefer that original sound, I really do think it's not the kind of sound that most people today respond to. A performance of the original version of NO, NO NANETTE, or at least of the score with the original orchestrations, is the kind of thing that would be ideal for one or two performances in a small theater somewhere like the Library of Congress, or maybe the Weill recital hall at Carnegie Hall, rather than five or six performances at City Center, which currently has a seating capacity of 2,257 (brought down from 2,750 during the renovation several years ago).

[quote]Better for Encores to do a faithful rendition of THE GOLDEN APPLE (for all its numerous flaws) than another abortion of an evening like HEY LOOK ME OVER! which was a mashup of unrelated numbers from unrelated musicals (that included, inexplicably, a 20+ minute excerpt from GREENWILLOW).

HEY, LOOK ME OVER was a very disappointing evening (for the most part) because a lot of the casting was wrong, and some of the choices were really odd, most notably the fact that the GREENWILLOW excerpt had so much spoken dialogue, which to put it mildly is not the strong point of that show. But I don't think there was anything wrong in theory with presenting extended excerpts of several shows that Encores! wasn't yet prepared to do in full. What's your objection to the concept, R485?

[quote]I like Liza, but without her folks, she'd be a Equity lounge waiting outside with the Non-Equity people, at the outset of her career. Then she'd maybe do some supporting roles in summer stock.

I think she would have had the level of career of Idina Menzel or Stephanie Block. Liza had the energy to be noticed which is 75% of the battle. After all, Barbra Streisand made it big without show biz connections.

It's a cheesy, crappy concept, R485.

Do the shows, warts and all, or don't do them. I don't want Encores reduced to some cruise ship/Sylvia Fine Kaye "Best of Bway!" type of event. As a theatregoer who loves musicals, I'll decide what's Best Of for myself, thanks. I hate revues.

Encores has done many "slighter/lighter" shows over the years. THE NEW YORKERS is one example; DO RE MI is another. They were both entertaining, if not terribly substantial.

Trust your fucking audience and do it right.

Sorry: meant for R489.

I was R485.

Encores used to release their tickets to TDF, that's how I saw Chicago.

The concept has always been risky. Does the public really want to pay to hear historic musicals? And City Center is a huge barn of a theater.

I was a bit ticked off when they did "Bye Bye Birdie". While I understand that they needed to generate money, it went against the mission of the program. BBB was produced in every high school, college and community theater across the US, plus we had an easily accessible movie version and it had just been done on tv a few years earlier. It wasn't a lost score or one we needed to hear again.

The problem with a concept like Encores is that you're simply going to run out of worthwhile shows that fit the criteria. When they started 26 years ago, there was a long list of semi-familiar shows (1) whose books precluded a commercial production that were (2) not ancient, obscure history while (3) being worthy of hearing again. They've tapped that list, but not enough time has gone by to replenish it.

They could have done Strouse and Adams' "All-American" and gotten Jerry Mitchell to stage the dances and locker room scenes as an hommage to original director Josh Logan's affinity/trademark for using shirtless men. Plus it's a show that has some good numbers and isn't likely to be revived much, unlike "Bye Bye Birdie", a real perennial.

[quote]The 1967 television "Kismet," with Jose Ferrer, Barbara Eden and Anna Maria Alberghetti.

I never miss a José Ferrer musical.

[quote]Do the shows, warts and all, or don't do them. I don't want Encores reduced to some cruise ship/Sylvia Fine Kaye "Best of Bway!" type of event. As a theatregoer who loves musicals, I'll decide what's Best Of for myself, thanks. I hate revues.

That's one way to look at it, but I don't agree. Doing an evening of extended excerpts from shows like ALL-AMERICAN, GREENWILLOW, MILK AND HONEY and WILDCAT is very different from the kind of "revue" you would see on a cruise ship, if it's even accurate to call it a revue to begin with (and I don't think it is).

[quote]The problem with a concept like Encores is that you're simply going to run out of worthwhile shows that fit the criteria. When they started 26 years ago, there was a long list of semi-familiar shows (1) whose books precluded a commercial production that were (2) not ancient, obscure history while (3) being worthy of hearing again. They've tapped that list, but not enough time has gone by to replenish it.

Exactly. When Encores! started, they probably had no idea it would still be going on lo these many years later, so it probably never occurred to them that they would run out of shows that fit the original mission statement. That's why they've had to change their criteria over the years. Which is not to say I don't disagree with some of their choices, like BYE BYE BIRDIE and THE PAJAMA GAME.

R490 Barbra Streisand was also lucky that a lot of people turned down "Funny Girl" and that Jule Styne saw her in a nightclub and flipped for her. Plus that "Funny Girl' was a such a great showcase for her. But yes, she made it without any big family connections. Liza certainly had talent and energy, but also unconventional looks, which Streisand had already started to corner the market on in a big way. Without Judy putting Liza on stage at the Palladium and having that kind of experience, it all comes down to if Liza met the right people to advance her career.

The other problem that Encores faces is that the audience for its material is aging and dying and to younger audiences, old musicals are Wicked and Rent. The market is drying up.

All American: Logan wanted the guys in the Physical Fitness number in the locker room in jock straps. The Boston censors gave a flat NO before the even opened for previews. By the time the show came to New York, the producers told him to forget it, they wouldn't pay for it to be redone. The guys ended up in underpants, football pants and gym shorts.

I wonder if the guy in briefs has to do the most to get his role...

So, wait a minute. Let's be clear. Are there REALLY people here arguing that at the age of 19, Liza Minnelli was cast in the title role of a Broadway musical - as in beat out all others being considered for the role - and won the Tony Award - as in beat all other nominees in her category (no less than Elizabeth Allen, Nancy Dussault and Inga Swenson) - for her performance in that musical... all on the strength of having famous parents (who were not even involved in the show)?

When CABARET was opening and all the stars were doing press, I remember a television interviewer asking Liza Minnelli if, at the outset of her career, having famous parents opened doors for her. And without a snarl, Liza replied, "Yes, of course. And then when I walked through the door, I had to sing."

I wish Encores would do British musicals. There are so many memorable flops from the UK with really fun scores.

Coward's Bitter Sweet was always one of Encores' most requested shows but they wouldn't consider it.

It'll never happen, but it would be great if Encores did Candide with Lillian's book.

[quote]When CABARET was opening and all the stars were doing press, I remember a television interviewer asking Liza Minnelli if, at the outset of her career, having famous parents opened doors for her. And without a snarl, Liza replied, "Yes, of course. And then when I walked through the door, I had to sing."

I think that's exactly what some people here are arguing. Liza would certainly not have been cast in FLORA just because of her famous parents if the people putting the show together didn't think she was up for it, but it's also likely that she wouldn't have gotten the part if she had been an unknown 19-year-old with the same amount of talent, assuming she would have gotten an audition for the lead to begin with.

Didn't Liza do "Best Foot Forward" Off-Broadway not long before "Flora"?

I've had the cast recording of that off Broadway Best Foot Forward for years on both vinyl and CD and I was amazed to learn just recently that Liza was only 16 when she did the show. Despite just a duo piano accompaniment, it's a great recording of a terrific show.

Frankly, even though I am far from a fan, Liza had more raw talent than just about any other 19 year old at the time. Who else should have played the part? Or who would have created a Sally Bowles any where near as iconic? She’s a mess, and makes poor choices in love, life, and art, but she has always been a star.

^ I meant terrific score, not show. Not always the same thing as we know.

That's all well and good, R505. EXCEPT, she wasn't an unknown at 19. That's where all of that falls apart.

She was known. And she was known for her own talent and her own work. She had her own resume as a teen.

In addition to BEST FOOT FORWARD, she had already toured in THE FANTASTICKS with top billing over Elliott Gould.

And she had been on TV many times and not only just with her mother.

Best Foot Forward...

What was Veronica Lake like in "Best Foot Forward"?

I kept asking Encores to do "Coco" starring Dixie Carter. Alas, they never took my suggestion.

Why would you wish that church lady soprano on a captive audience?

Agree that Encores! should expand to London-based musicals. They moved in that direction with IRMA LA DOUCE (Broadway via Paris and London). I vote for MAGGIE MAY and ROBERT AND ELIZABETH.

Thanks, r512. Those male dancers were terrific, too.

I'd love to see "The Good Companions" with a wonderful score by Andre Previn and Johnny Mercer, with a tale about traveling actor-singers in the UK people would enjoy.

I do not think her voice was right for it, r514.

I'm sure Judi would be up for it, r518!

If Katharine Hepburn could do Coco, our Dixie could have handled it. In the below song, she even does a Hepburn imitation.

Dixie was terrific in MASTER CLASS. She could spit out COCO without a 2nd thought.

[quote]It'll never happen, but it would be great if Encores did Candide with Lillian's book.

Some people have thought and hoped that, as time passes and as control of the Hellman estate changes over the years, the people in charge might someday grant the rights for that book to be performed, but obviously it hasn't happened yet.

[quote]I wish Encores would do British musicals. There are so many memorable flops from the UK with really fun scores.

An Encores! production of an obscure British musical would probably sell close to zero tickets, maybe a little more or less depending on the casting, and of course there would be no point in them doing OLIVER! I suppose BITTER SWEET might be something of an exception, because of Coward's name, but I'm a little surprised if it's true that this was one of Encores' most-requested titles, even among their core audience.

Dixie's Coco would have nailed that little ingrate, Noelle, right to the wall.

Dixie was either terrible or great in Masterclass. I never heard a middling/neutral review.

Liza was in The Fantasticks? As the lead girl? Did they have to transpose the keys way down? I love her, but she's a belter, not a soprano.

Even with her voice gone, Liza has that star quality that very few have. I want to believe she'd have been a star no matter what. Look at Lorna Luft. I'd say she has a better voice than Liza (and has managed to keep more of it throughout the years) and had the same family connections, but she's had a respectable, but not terribly exciting career. She just didn't have the star quality that Liza did.

Plus, r526, Liza...danced!

R526 Another soprano role for Liza: "Carnival."

She would have made a divine Christine in Phantom!

Encores! should consider British musicals that never came to Broadway, rather than obscure flops. There are many wonderful shows that were very successful in London that never crossed the pond. American audiences may not know them, but if they were well cast they would prove popular.

I hate when actors from either side of the pond have to do the opposite's accent (US/UK).

Ah kids, it's not 1987 anymore. No one does Bye, Bye Birdie any more. Not the regionals, not the high schools. It's been replaced by all the Disney shows, and Legally Blonde and Addams Family.

Speaking of "The Colored Museum," remember the infamous "not another momma on the couch play"? That was George C. Wolfe taking down the "All Black Musical" and after that play, they stopped being produced except for his "Noise/Funk." All the chorus boys on Facebook are now suddenly discovering "Black and Blue," and asking why there aren't shows like this anymore? It's because George C. Wolfe killed them.

I SEE YOU WHITE NO, NO NANETTE/YES, YES, YVETTE!

[quote]Look at Lorna Luft. I'd say she has a better voice than Liza (and has managed to keep more of it throughout the years) and had the same family connections, but she's had a respectable, but not terribly exciting career. She just didn't have the star quality that Liza did.

Did you know she was molested?

My shishter ish not a sshtar!

Oh, for fuck’s sake. Yes, the original “Nanette” orchestrations survive. That’s how McGlinn was able to do it. A lot of shows from the 20s and 30s that were considered “lost” were rediscovered in the Warner-Chappell warehouse in NJ in the early 1980s. Lots of Gershwin, Rodgers & Hart, Porter, etc. Many have complete orchestrations (as Nanette did), while others had at least partiturs, (ie, a conductor’s score), from which complete parts could be extracted.

And 1971 was nearly 50 years ago. That version of “Nanette” went through its “cycle” in the 70s and 80s, and is not done with any regularity anymore. It was a perfectly valid choice, and the Encores! audiences went nuts for it, which more than justifies its inclusion in the season. So a few old queens who should have been paying attention when McGlinn et al were doing all those concerts missed out on hearing the original orchestrations. Everyone else had a thoroughly delightful evening.

R530, maybe for a production these shows would find an audience, but the Encores runs are so short that there is no time for reviews or word of mouth to build an audience.

The shows have to sell on their name and cast alone.

[quote]R537 A lot of shows from the 20s and 30s that were considered “lost” were rediscovered in the Warner-Chappell warehouse in NJ in the early 1980s.

What were they doing there? Who was paying the bill?

^^ oh wait, I found an article about it.

It’s interesting that a lot of the sheet music was acquired by Warner Bros. as sound was coming in, as they knew they’d need music to score their movies.

That trunk in Secaucus is legendary. Tommy Krasker of PS Classics was involved in the discovery and curation of the materials. That's where he found the lost score of Kitty's Kisses, which he later recorded (well worth getting, by the way).

"Ain't Misbehavin' " has always been a wildly overpraised little revue.

Sure the songs are great and the cast was spot on, but the script names the "characters" after the singers who originally played them, and so much sturm und drang was put into them being "real characters", and not just good performers, as if to somehow get people to think of the show as more than just a revue, which they did, but of course it isn't, and never was, or will be.

I couldn't see how it won all the awards including the Best Musical Tony. It's a long cruise ship revue show! If the actors had just done the songs as themselves it wouldn't have mattered a bit, it still doesn't! The songs tell the singers what they need, it's so silly. If they were giving out the Tony for a revue, they should have voted for Ann Miller in "Sugar Babies", which was more deserving!

Still underrated? Yep, Alexis Smith in "Follies". For a non-singing movie star to be cast as a leading lady in a musical and pull it off, looking as if she was born to the musical stage is still noteworthy. She was clearly sensational.

[quote]R542 Still underrated? Alexis Smith in "Follies". For a non-singing movie star to be cast as a leading lady in a musical and pull it off, looking as if she was born to the musical stage, is still noteworthy.

I’ve never heard of this show.

What’s it about?

r543, it's funny you ask. It's kind of a weird hybrid, and apparently people have all these nutty ideas about what every little moment is supposed to mean!

Basically it's sad old people putting on a little show for themselves and their memories. It's not very good, but some people keep saying it is, except needs different people in it. I guess they keep trying, but then everyone says the first ones were better after all.

No matter what just say that's your opinion too, and they'll all nod in agreement. Like a charm.

R544 Sounds like a big Be More Chill fan.

I saw Ain't Misbehavin' many many times and I don't think it was wildly over praised in the least. It was sensational and if that is what ship cruise revues are like well I've been missing out on a lot.

I do admit the Tony for best musical was idiotic as was the Tony for Jerome Robbins Broadway.

R512, thanks for that. Liza was amazing when she was still a teen! It’s nice to see her without all the wacko mannerisms we make fun of now

I’ve seen a number of Aint Misbehavin’ productions. Nothing has ever beaten the original Bway cast

Agree that Ain't Misbehavin' was terrific in its original production. One of the handful of shows I've ever seen that I consider perfect.

Liza was an extremely good dancer of Fosse's choreography, so he'd probably have got to know her as a dancer early in her career, and found out she could sing. If he then cast her in the film of Cabaret, she'd be A-list without her parents.

Was Mel Brooks ever working on a stage adaptation of Blazing Saddles? I was chatting with a friend yesterday and we were randomly reminiscing about our most joyous (MARY, I know!) nights in the theatre. And one we had in common (though we saw it separately) was The Producers. One of the few times my cheeks were literally hurting from laughing so much. I know Young Frankenstein didn't really work, but do you think Blazing Saddles could? When the theatre comes back, I have to imagine a big, lavish musical COMEDY could be successful -- something audiences would be hungry for.

R551, By the time theatre comes back, Mel Brooks could be dead.

Don't you know that Mel's jokes come from a soil of white male oppression? It's about two white men. It's about power and money. It's about lying and manipulating and falsehoods. The Producers will never be revived on Broadway. Ever.

For such a phenomenal hit, one that swept the Tony Awards, "The Producers" hasn't aged terribly well.

Has Contact?

I believe IRMA LA DOUCE was a big flop for Encores! I expect shows like MAGGIE MAY and ROBERT AND ELIZABETH would also be flops for them unless, of course, they happened to sign at least one big star per show, and when was the last time that happened there?

R532, at the time when Encores! did BYE BYE BIRDIE, I'm pretty sure it was still a very popular choice for production in high schools. And as for your other comment, that was 2004, before some of the Disney stage musicals were even created or before the rights to present them were available to high schools.

R550, I'm not sure what you mean. When did Liza dance Fosse's choreography before CABARET?

R554, yes. It fascinates me how the style of humor in THE PRODUCERS (the show) was still so marketable as late as 2001 (and for a run through 2007) but now seems to have very quickly gone out of fashion. Along somewhat the same lines, I've heard that, before the pandemic. THE BOOK OF MORMON was losing steam. (Not exactly the same kind of humor as THE PRODUCERS, but similar in its outrageousness and what would probably now seen as offensiveness if it were a new show.)

Both Producers and Book of Mormon intended to be outrageous. Offense is in the eye of the beholder. Some people are so ready to be offended that anything at all will offend them -Including the idea that something might have been altered so as to not offend them. Humor is based on inequality. Laughter means we understand the situation, not that we condone it.

Perhaps intentionally outrageous material will always have a relatively short shelf life, regardless of whether audiences "understand" the humor.

If The Producers and Mormon still made people laugh as much, no one would call them offensive. But now that their style of humor is not getting the yucks, people will call them offensive rather than outrageous.

But in time their style will come back and they will be outrageous rather than offensive. Until the cycle continues

[quote] It's about two white men.

"The Producers" may have been, but "Blazing Saddles" is anything but!

Christian Borle is so attractive from the neck down now, but from the neck up he could stop Big Ben.

Will Encores do The Producers in 2070?

Why did Encores release cast recordings of certain shows and not others? Was it a rights thing or a money thing? And if it was a money thing, couldn't they have just recorded the songs live?

R561, David Foster already stopped me once.

R563, Encores does not release cast recordings. Recording companies do that.

If they think they can make money, they do the recording. If they do not, then they do not.

I am sure if it were up to Encores, every concert would be recorded.

R565, There are bootlegs in circulation of just about every Encores! production ever done.

God, I hope not 70 Girls, 70.

On a week from Saturday Janie Dee is playing Desiree in a London open air concert version of A Little Night Music. She’d make a good Desiree.

Yes, r568!

R568 Great news. Do you know if it is being broadcast?

^ Answering myself, NO. And the 200 tickets sold out in seconds.

Did anyone see Follies after Joanna Riding took over from the shouty midget? Would like to see that production with a more appropriate Sally.

I thought Riding was great, r571. The part fit her like a glove - she felt like a housewife who had tasted the glamorous life. Brit actors seem to choose one line to scream, and hers was her exit line. Otherwise, one of the best Sallys I have seen .

Was Jo Anne Worley a Sally or a Phyllis?

[quote]Was Jo Anne Worley a Sally or a Phyllis?

A Stella Deems.

Meh. It's just with an 8-piece band.

The original movie of The Producers was really quite shocking, when you think WWII had only ended 22 years earlier. People who survived the death camps as teenagers were still under 40. I think that puts the current objections of the Woke to it into perspective.

The reaction of the audience in it to Springtime for Hitler does, however, support R559's point that if a show is truly funny it can get away with nearly anything. Of course the film is a mutual satire of the Third Reich and Broadway.

Wasn't the Producers a huge flop everywhere except with Lane and Broderick? And then even with them the movie was a turkey. Probably the most overrated musical in history. Has any other big hit musical so completely died when the original leads left?

In terms of Encores! recordings, I I think at least some of them are supported financially by the estates of the composers who want to keep the brands alive for possible future productions.

When I said I saw Ain't Misbehavin' many many times it was always with the original cast. Perfection.

The holy grail for me is the National Theatre CAROUSEL, with Joanna Riding, Janie Dee and Patricia Routledge.

r576 And "Hogan's Heroes" was a hit TV series around the same time.

R576, The movie "To Be or Not To Be" mocked Hitler while his WW II atrocities were ongoing.

As did Chaplin's "The Great Dictator," released in 1940 , before the U.S. was even at war with Germany.

Joanna Riding is playing Charlotte in the concert of ALNM in Holland Park in London. I just put myself on the waiting list in the hope a single ticket might be available.

R577, the original film of The Producers got a very limited release, but did well. The musical was a sellout on its first national tour -without the two original stars. Regional and community theaters have had a lot of success with the show as well. The film of the musical tanked mostly due to the fact that it was poorly made. It had a "filmed for television" look, and was flat and lifeless. I would also add that, seen live in the theatre, the show has an atmosphere of naughtiness that the audience gets to share in. I just don't think you can capture that on film.

I wish Aurora Spiderwoman would come back, r580, I wanted to watch that spectacularly staged/designed opening again.

A five-six-seven-eight!

AS is just on a summer hiatus. She will be back.

For absolutely no reason...

The Producers only worked because of Lane. Even Broderick was expendable.

I saw the original production without Lane and there was barely a laugh.

r590

I saw the LA production with Jason Alexander and Martin Short... they got laughs... Did they ever do the Broadway production?

No, neither did those roles on Broadway, R590.

I only saw the West End production (after Lane had left) and the theatre was packed and I've rarely heard an audience laugh that heartily or for that long. I would have loved to have seen Lane, but perhaps in his absence, Mel Brooks became the true star of the production.

The casting or Martin Short has always struck me as odd. I adore Martin Short, but he seems a more natural Max. I guess because of his slight stature, he didn't fit the Zero / Nathan mold, but I think his explosive comedic styling would be wasted in Leo.

Was the DEBBIE DOES DALLAS musical good?

How about JOHNNY GUITAR?

Both Jason and Short did the final week of the San Francisco run to get ready for LA.

And can someone find a combined comeback stage vehicle for Pia Zadora and Jo Anne Worley?? [italic]I am tired of beating their damn drum ALONE.[/italic]

I thought you were professionals!

The Producers without the original stars got about the same number of laughs as Spamalot without its original cast.

Hardly any

Sooo...I've never seen the entire film so I've never gotten to see Alexis' dance number. A tiny blippet of it at 00:45.

R581 has a point, but R582 and R583 not so much - the Holocaust, the extent and savagery of it, were not known until the camps were liberated. Everyone outside Germany and maybe Austria could see Hitler was dangerous/mad/a dictator etc, and everyone everywhere knew the War was horrible, but the revelations about the camps made it a whole different ballgame.

The difference between Hogan's Heroes and The Producers is that the latter's focus (when not on sending up Broadway) is squarely and implacably on denigrating and humiliating the memory of Hitler himself. Brooks was angrier when he wrote the 1967 movie than when he wrote the musical.

Hogan's Heroes, which was aimed at kids of course, is set during WWII but its main focus is the ingenuity and resilience of Americans, which was a common trope throughout US TV of the 50s and 60s (and which Brooks and Henry turned on its head in Get Smart). The jokes about the Germans are that they are stupid, inadequate foes for this brilliance (so they really could be any enemy), whereas the jokes in The Producers are about what they were actually doing. That's why I think its chronological nearness to the action is special.

Bajour!

FOLLIES!