Vermont vs Upstate NY

Both have pockets of truly disturbing poverty. Like the type of shit you see in the Deep South.

Given that, I’ll take the Hudson Valley any day over VT. There are more interesting towns near the river with the things one needs and wants: restaurants, bars, an art scene, farmers markets, etc. Towns like the obvious: Rhinebeck, Red Hook, Tivoli, Germantown. But I like further up: Old Chatham, Kinderhook, Ghent. Hudson is just ok. A lot of gross pretentious homos from the city have made it insufferable.

Lastly, Troy is a small city on the river that is seeing a small renaissance. The hip kids have landed there, there’s lots to do (a couple of truly good restaurants) and if you just have to see Vermont, it’s 25 miles away.

I'd move to troy

Taxes in Vermont are unbelievable.

Are you willing to deal with the Champlain Lake Monster?

For time off, NY, but to live I'd choose Vermont.

Another vote for Troy. It was having a pre-Covid boomlet.

I'll take my chances, R4.

His friends call him Champy.

Brave girl, Sylvia. Live where you want most. You will survive anywhere.

After Hurricane Sandy flood waters nearly got me in Brooklyn, I moved to Troy. I had been in NYC for 35 years and I did not want to live through all the Sandy-related rebuilding. Troy is not Brooklyn, though parts of it look like the very best of Brooklyn. It's comfortable. It's cheap. There are endless real estate opportunities here. And its proximity to a wealth of cultural advantages is much appreciated. Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Sage College and the Hudson Valley Community college are all in Troy. Add to it all the hipsters moving from New York and you see why the average age in Troy is just over 30. I've enjoy the move greatly. During the Covid-19 lockdown, I was kiss-the-ground grateful not to be in an apartment in NYC.

There are adjustments to be made after leaving NYC. But there have been many rewards.

Do you ski?

Vermont is pretty to drive through, but I’m not sure about living there full time. Rutland seemed like a pretty depressing place.

I prefer upstate NY, but I don't go for any culture really. I like the scenery better, the hiking, and kayaking. My friends have cabins in a few places. Vermont has some great ski slopes, but I don't enjoy skiing as much as I did in my younger years.

There are a lot of different "upstate NY" regions Ms. Fowler

Hudson Valley, Catskills, Finger Lakes, Adirondacks., Southern Tier and whatever they call the area by Buffalo

Hudson Valley is most gentrified, gay friendly and near Berkshire towns in MA too.

R14 Fair to point out, very different people in all those places to be certain. My favourite is Adirondacks, followed by Catskills. Bear Mtn is nice too. The Finger Lakes are truly beautiful, but I don't have any friends there.

Going north from New York City, things are nicely civilized through Saratoga and maybe even to the north end of Lake George. But after that... let's just say you are getting away from it all.

[quote] And its proximity to a wealth of cultural advantages is much appreciated. Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Sage College and the Hudson Valley Community college are all in Troy.

Oh dear Lord.

Why, R5?

R14 I did specify the area across the border from VT, not the Finger Lakes or Buffalo, did I not?

Having lived in Vermont for over a decade now, I recommend the Hudson Valley. There's a lot more going on and you don't run into the drunk deplorable on the road quite as often. Wherever you go rurally, be careful if you want to go backroading, don't insult local politics or question how they do things in general, and you'll be fine.

Vermonters know they need the tourist dollars even if they secretly hate you. Avoid the little tourist traps and check out the more progressive towns.

Go further up 100 if you want more progressive towns to eat in and enjoy if you do decide to cruise up the Vermont way. Even Vermonters avoid most of the box store shit in Rutland and it's known as being 'different' even in their poorly preserved old section. Waterbury is a great foodie haunt with craft beers and local foods offered in some pretty cool restaurants. There are swim holes all along the way up if you go on a hot day (just pull over on the White River anywhere up past Rochester....there's a nice blueberry picking place right across from a great swim hole), and take a detour to the Robert Frost haunts around Middlebury with a left onto 125 from 100 in Granville. Stop in the Ripton general store, but watch for it on the left or you'll blink and go by.

TONS of trails all around this area, but the trails are free around Breadloaf and the views are spectacular.

Fuck the deplorables and stay in civilization. If you have get your country air thing on, find a nice little B&B somewhere for weekends. Otherwise, avoid the ticks and the snakes and the locals.

R20 has never left NYC before...

Spent my weekends on Fire Island in the 70s and early 80s, r21, and the 90s and early 00s in the Poconos and Catskills. Plus long traveling vacations and long trips home to rural NC over those periods. Visit where you fantasize but live in civilization.

[quote] [R14] I did specify the area across the border from VT, not the Finger Lakes or Buffalo, did I not?

You did indeed specify that Ms. Fowler, but given that most comments you've received are about the Hudson Valley, which is due west of Connecticut Massachusetts, I felt compelled to point that out.

The Adirondack region is due west of Vermont on Lake Champlain which is actually in northernmost VT and NY

Plattsburgh NY is a college town and Lake Placid is a ski resort, but cannot tell you more than that.

R3 Do you at least get anything worthwhile for your taxes? We pay high taxes here in PA, but I couldn't tell you what they're used for. Certainly not infrastructure, schools, or social services.

Paging Miss Sessums...

Miss Sessums to a white courtesy phone please...

Here's your answer:

r10 I'm nearby in East Hills hiding out with family, but my partner and I spend most of our time in Troy. We're thinking of making it permanent. I hate to ask this question - but is there any sort of gay community? It seems vibrant and young, and I do see gay couples on the street but its still hard to gauge.

Thanks!

Is anyone here familiar with Oneonta? My friend has a modest acreage a few miles out of the town. Sounds nice.

we mostly get big companies that get tax breaks and then move out of Vermont, good schools and lately, many scams that are decimating towns. I love Vermont and we are definitely a different brand of people but being called deplorables compared to other places is pretty insulting.

The job market is intense here, finding a doctor can be difficult and UVM has a stranglehold on the State and the health care system in Vermont.

my soon to be ex is from St J. ,VT A different breed up there altogether although I did make inroads with the in-law's , surprisingly.

If you're comparing both sides of Lake Champlain, Vermont wins IMO. Burlington through Middleburry is some of the best that Vermont has to offer. Plattsburgh is the only city of any size that side of the lake, and while it has a few good restaurants and shops, it's very run down. There are some pretty towns in that area of NY (Essex and Peru), but they are in decline and VT has nicer equivalents. Taxes are a motherfucker in VT though.

^How do you get laid in a place like that? What's the demographic? Isn't it snowy and dreary 9 months a year? What airport do you use?

The advantage of upstate NY is that you can get to the city in two hours (if you're no further than Hudson). Vermont offers better scenery but no escape.

However, if you're willing to go further, Troy, as people have mentioned, is really quite nice if you can find a place in the downtown area. Really good restaurants, wonderful architecture (It looks like Greenwich Village) and a vibrant night scene. Even has a burgeoning vegan scene as well.

Also, the winters are somewhat milder in the Hudson Valley than in Vermont. Those Vermont winters can seem interminable.

It’s so weird to me that Troy is hip now, though I concur that it is. It was such a shithole in the 90s.

[quote]Even has a burgeoning vegan scene as well.

Isn't that enough to keep civilized people away?

You sound like an insufferable liberal asshole. Please stay south of Hudson.

Thanks!!

I think you can find good deals and a natural setting much farther south. I think going way update or Vermont is a serious adjustment. Northern Westchester and Putnam have some affordable houses on an acre+. And you are very accessible to Grand Central. I did Western Mass for a while - but it’s so remote and I craved the city. Realized outer suburbs are the perfect happy medium for me.

R27 Nearby Albany is very gay and liberal

This place should have it's own tasteful friends thread. Troy 800k

Very nice R39. But I never understood why people move to the country to live in a townhouse. Hudson is the most egregious example - why would you choose to move 2+ hours away to the worst of urban environments when you can go 15 minutes outside Hudson and find a beautiful bucolic setting.

Somebody who used to be a regular here (forget the name) lived in either Utica or Rome and it sounded super-depressing.

Be careful in Vermont- they have ALOT of rain and major flooding issues-

R38 - what's Albany like?

That's a three family house though at R39--you'd get rent from the other two apartments (not sure how much)

Being a landlord is Hell.

I lived in troy for 2 years back in the early 2000s . I really glad to hear its having a bit of a renaissance as it was a total shit hole when i lived there. Stunning architecture everywhere though. Its right next door to Albany ,wich always had all kinds of festivities going on during the summer months. The Lark St fair was one of my favorites. Overall I liked Troy ,it wasnt super expensive and I found most folks there nice (but oh so poor) . I just couldnt take the winters . Being from Florida I thought I was going to DIE. When my late husband kicked the bucket I was out of there like Flash Gordon . We had a huge apartment in a victorian pile that cost $645 a month. But the light bill in winter was $645 a month ! Ive got fond memories of the place but I cant say Id go back .

[quote] It’s so weird to me that Troy is hip now, though I concur that it is. It was such a shithole in the 90s.

I had a friend who grew up there in the 80s and 90s and she always referred to it as Troylet.

R26 I was wondering if Miss Sessums would be called out. lol!

"what's Albany like?"

I'll chime in. It's pretty gross but that's changing. Near Washington Park are lovely brownstones and some nicer apartment buildings. Also, the REGION in general has a lot going on. And youre 2.5 hours by Amtrak to NYC. So from a location perspective, you could do a lot worse. Just know the city itself can be pretty dire. 1/2 of it is a ghetto. But there are a lot of cool people to meet who work for state government. Some good restaurants have FINALLY opened. And it's cheap. You can get a great apt in a BIG brownstone for a fraction of what it would cost in NYC.

One thing to note: a lot of gay guys are moving up there from the city. My friend just opened a nice wine store in Albany and he said he was shocked at the number of kinda hot daddy guys who dropped in.

Summer fairs and festivals are for now a thing of the past. Even in the city. Especially in the city.

The tri-cities hate each other, which is weird, as no one else cares.

Albany and Troy call Schenectady Shit-nectady.

Schenectady and Troy call Albany Smallbany.

Albany and Schenectady call Troy Troilet.

R49 - thanks for your chime!

Rochester?

I just checked Amtrak ALbany to New York tomorrow 45 ow. United has a flight from EWR to San Juan tomorrow 41 dollars. Crazy.

I like both places. I stayed in Manchester, VT and loved it. But I also like a lot of the towns in the Hudson River Valley. Columbia County, NY is pretty.

Rutland, VT is indeed a shithole. It was overrun by drugs in the 1990s and never recovered. I grew up in that area and still have family there, so I go back to visit occasionally. Not a lot has changed appearance-wise from the 1970s and 1980s when I was in that area. But I would never want to live there again. It seems depressed and you can see how drugs have changed the people there.

The advantage of the Capitol Region is it was settled early so there are many beautiful architectual styles similar to NYC. Once past there onto Utica, Syracuse, Rochester they don't have that architecture and they have horrid winters. Rochester was always a nice and wealthy city ...Kodak, Xerox were based there but it has fallen on harder times these days.

I have friends with a place in Essex, NY. Mostly NYC summer people on the waterfront, a few retired year rounders, the rest are mostly living in poverty in an economically depressed area. They take the ferry to VT to go grocery shopping. No idea how far you would have to drive in the winter.

FWIW: The Millenial Urban Exodus: Why Are We Leaving Major Cities For Rural Life?

From San Francisco to London and Tokyo, millennials are leaving major cities for smaller towns and rural areas. So what’s inspiring the move? One writer reflects on her own experiences and looks to others who, like her, are forming an urban exodus.

. . .

But like I’d discovered in France, looking outside of cities, however, can offer a kind of time travel; a glitch in the matrix; a quickening in your chest that it might still be open to you. In the US, a millennial exodus from cities has left suburbs dubbed ‘Hipsturbia’, spurred on by Instagram realtors such as Cheap Old Houses, where it can feel like one, two or even three zeroes have been forgotten off the price.

It’s not without complications — the ‘getting more for your money’ argument has long been the blinding, guiding light of gentrification. And now, that risk isn’t concentrated in cities alone. Because if millennials were handed a dud round financially, we were also handed a joker card: high-speed internet. As companies including Facebook, Twitter, and Spotify announce employees can work from home indefinitely, people have a once-in-a-lifetime chance to pole-vault suburbs and theoretically go where they like. In China, the nostalgic countryside-set videos of blogger Li Ziqi have made her a ‘rural influencer’

rest of story at link

"But I never understood why people move to the country to live in a townhouse."

Well, that's the appeal - they can LIVE IN A TOWNHOUSE. Unlike in NYC or Brooklyn. And there is stunning mountains and countryside all over. You get the best of both worlds. A smattering of modern amenities, affordability, way less craziness and quaint town vibe.

Living in a townhouse in a small city like Hudson means, as R61 says, you get to live in a beautiful home but you are also within walking distance of restaurants and stores, you can easily get together with other people without getting into a car, you can get a cup of coffee in minutes, and all the other pleasures of urban life -- but you are also minutes from beautiful trails, hiking, fresh produce stands etc. It's the best way to live.

And of course, you are paying a fraction of what you would pay in NYC.

I love the trend of millennials going rural, but the clash with the local culture, back in the hippie days, wasn't pretty. Even now, there are 'incidents' people never hear about. Be careful and know that even the color of your underwear will be known within weeks. Small town life can be isolating, weird, and sometimes cruel.

Flooding in both areas will be an issue in the coming years. Parts of VT regularly get cut off.

Go up to the cold regions with someone or something (big furry dog?) to snuggle with. The winters are indeed interminable and you WILL get sick of them. Learn to ski and snowshow for sanity's sake.

Our crazy group of homesteaders always gets squirrely come January....with about 3 more months to go until you see a leaf, who can blame them? Save some money for a regular getaway every winter. Again, for sanity's sake.

I like this trend of rurbanization....it will be interesting to see how it susses out as VT is a tough place to live, but if you bring an internet job, the state has a financial incentive payout....

Though realistically speaking, many of these kids are moving not terribly far from big cities. My bestie lives in Woodstock and he says it’s overrun with this phenomenon. Real estate is on fire (he sold his modest 2-bedroom bungalow for close to 500k in one day) and Hamptons-style traffic jams are now the norm. These are the people he says “have been to Coachella at least twice.” I know that’s an anecdotal example but I’m hearing similar stories in other areas like Rhinebeck, Catskill, Red Hook (upstate not BK).

R63 we aren't talking about the Adirondacks. Troy is an actual city, and Hudson is two hours from NYC.

I am not r63 but r65, the OP specifically asked about Vermont vs. the NY side of Lake Champlain, which is in the Adirondacks. Others have recommended Troy and Hudson.

Not sure what gay life is like in either the NY or VT side. You might choose something further south with more people...Bennington is charming, but very small, the New York capital region might be interesting. Hope you like long, sometimes brutal winters.

[quote]Hope you like long, sometimes brutal winters.

As the oceans have warmed, and risen, the winters in NYC are growing increasingly turblent and severe. Conversely, the winters in the Hudson Valley are relaxing a bit. Moving into the Hudson Valley does not necessarily set you up for severe winters. There are often great winter storms in NYC that do not reach us 100 miles north (and away from the ocean.)

Elevation is everything when dealing with winter in the Northeast. Albany and Troy are, basically at sea level. But you don't have to drive more than 20 minutes to have find yourself in an area of much greater elevation. It will be colder there and be more prone to snow. If you're considering the Hudson Valley or the Berkshires or the Catskills, scrupulously pay attention to elevation. During the summer, things are generally the same, though the nights might be cooler in the mountains. But in the winter, there are advantages to living at lower elevation.

Yes, they are very good about keeping the roads cleared. But the higher in elevation you go, the more you will have to contend with cold and snow.

Five seasons: winter, mud, spring and summer.

Agree R68. I lived at a peak of a kingpin and it was 10 degrees colder year round. Great in summer but a bitch for heating bills in the winter.

Get wood burning stoves in winter. Keep your heating costs down.

[quote] Hope you like long, sometimes brutal winters.

I do, actually. Part of why I want to move is that we no longer have winter where I live.

R10-Helen?

Yeah I am liking winter more and more, granted in DC we have fairly mild winters but the summers are brutal. We have had like 3 weeks of 95 degree heat and humidity. You don't get those stretches in Upstate NY or Vermont.

Yeah this summer has sucked. Makes me dream of living in the mountains of Vermont. But talk to me again in January.

fyi, it's been hot and muggy as shit for weeks her in Vermont. and muggy brings our state bird, the mosquito

According to a distressing new report in the New York Times, New York City — formerly a humid continental climate — is now within the humid subtropical climate zone. In fact, per the report, the city has met the National Climate Assessment’s requirements to classify as humid subtropical for the past five years: Temperatures have averaged above 72 degrees in the summer and 27 degrees in the winter. (During the first three months of this year, the average temperature in Central Park was over 42 degrees Fahrenheit, the director of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s Northeast Regional Climate Center told the Times.)

Horticulturists have pointed to a handful of clear indicators of the city’s changing climate in addition to the rising temperatures: Flowers are blooming earlier than ever, the city’s native birch trees and sugar maples are suffering from the sweltering heat and drought while plants and trees that have historically thrived in Southeast Asia and South America are now flourishing, and in lieu of moderate rainfall, we’re now seeing torrential storms that erode soil and cause ponds to overflow. Also it’s just really hot.

Hick and ticks and biting flies

Pasty, white guys and dismal skies

Getting laid? Amtrak, 2.5

I love VT but I also grew up in the Finger Lakes region so it’s not a huge geographic change. That said larger urban areas like Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse were relatively close. Burlington is tiny by comparison. I’d imagine moving from NYC to VT full time would be a huge culture shock.

R28

I don't know if I should even bother answering because it's been so long, but I went to school in Oneonta (SUNY), but that was 40 years ago.

The country around there was beautiful, but fairly poor. The only places to work were Oneonta State and Hartwick College, a private school that was also in Oneonta. Lots of farming. What was then a charming downtown with - if I remember correctly - around 50 bars. I spent a lot of time in a bar called The Copper Fox.

From bits of articles here and there, the area is apparently becoming popular. Maybe it's just being discovered. You should check it out. Great college town if you think you'd like that. But with a pandemic, I suspect a lot of the cultural and other opportunities that the colleges would have normally offered are now gone.

And winters were not horrible, that I remember, and since then I'm sure they've gotten warmer. One thing upstate New York (real upstate, not across the bridges) knows how to do is plow. The snow barely lands on the ground before it's plowed away.

Again, I bet it's worth a look and from what I've seen on Zillow, still affordable. Relatively.

The key to coming upstate successfully is finding others who have also abandoned the City and moved upstate. They are quicker, sharper, more experienced, and more knowing than the locals. I've met a number of great guys who are locals. But then, on occasion, when I find someone up here from NYC, the connection is unmistakable. It helps a lot to experience that kind of understanding.

I was born and raised in Rhinebeck. It was such a small town then. I was back last year and I couldn't believe how fancy it had become.

Yes. Rhinebeck is now an outpost of NYC, brought to you by Amtrak.

[quote]Five seasons: winter, mud, spring and summer.

I went to SUNY Geneseo R80 in the Finger Lakes. I was near Oneonta recently and the countryside is beautiful, I almost went there.