Horrible Kitchen Design

When you walk in the front door and you're in the damn kitchen!

Ugh.

This may be just a NYC thing.

Kitchen cabinets that don't go all the way up to the ceiling

R1 hate that too. It's more common in NYC because of smaller spaces but I've been in apartments in Texas with them.

Open kitchens (or rather living rooms with a freaking kitchen).

The dumbest idea ever.

R2 - or, as in all of European homes, East and West, that don't go all the way to the floor, but just close enough not to be able to sweep up the crap under them without gargantuan effort. In fact, all European baths and kitchens are stupid. A five star hotel in Milan and the water is all over the floor when you shower. EVERY.FUCKING.TIME. What's worse, they all think it's normal.

R5 that's because it's common in Europe for kitchens to not include cabinets, so they need to be semi portable.

R2 That, with fake ivy dripping down everywhere. Kill me now.

R5 American bathrooms are so uncivilized. I miss my bidet.

Let's not forget this gem:

Overly complicated, loud or too-busy tile designs on backsplashes that overpower everything else in the room and shout "Look at me!"

quartz, granite etc countertops that tend to look like a cross between roadkill and vomit. and people seem to spend big money on that and think it looks "classy", too. blech!

bonus points for deliberately "antique" style carved cabinetry with some kind of faux finish to make them look even older.

OMG Op ,thats such a stupid thing to do ! Whenever I see that on a design show I think "Dont you idiots realize the heat from the oven will make the fridge run continuously???"

Yes those tv designers should know better, yet they do it anyway.

Tangentially, don't get me started on televisions over fireplaces.

Stop it R13 ! you're triggering me !

Waterfall countertops like in the picture at R11. They serve absolutely no purpose other than to draw attention to the designer in the corner saying “look what I did.”

OP, you are too sensitive.

Fridges have good insulation nowadays.

And 90% of households don't use their stove to cook their own meals. They either eat out, or use a quick-and-easy-microwave or hire someone from the lower classes to deliver something.

Pot fillers above stoves. How lazy are you???

90% of households ARE "the lower classes".

frozen pizza still needs an oven.

I hate cheap cherry cabinets. They scream turn-of-the-Millenium frau design.

Chandeliers in over-the-top Castle Kitchens. Highly impractical.

OP, sometimes there are space issues. And perhaps you've never heard of insulation.

But do vomit. It might help with the weight and excuse the breath.

Sometimes I stumble upon new construction with oak cabinets from the 80s and early 90s. Why?

I hate cooktops on the island where the only exhaust is one of those pop-up things that doesn't go nearly high enough to grab the fumes coming off of taller pots. Or the microwaves over the stove/cooktop that just recirculate the air below them. Give me an exhaust fan properly vented to the outside.

R11 I agree that particular granite waterfall looks like vomit. But waterfalls can be useful if you want to hide the fact that some island benches are for eating on and the stool-sitters need leg room.

Great comments. I also hate the cooktop on an island and the wall ovens next to the fridge. I do however actually use the pot filler over the cooktop. My sink is on the other side of the large island from the cooktop so it comes in handy.

Nothing dates a kitchen faster than those beyond tired granite counters and stainless appliances. Both also notorious for being nightmares to clean.

Sofas in an open kitchen.

The fabric must smell fucking terrible.

[quote] And 90% of households don't use their stove to cook their own meals. They either eat out, or use a quick-and-easy-microwave or hire someone from the lower classes to deliver something.

I can't fathom where you got that bit of lunacy from.

Which 'bit' in particular, R28?

I despise cook-tops on islands. I hate even more cook-tops on islands with seating adjacent to the cook top.

Hot, messy, might burn someone, stupid, and on and on. Are you supposed to eat or do paperwork with a hot or boiling pot inches from your fingers. STUPIDEST IDEA EVER!!!

Tile countertops. You can't keep the grout clean and it makes it awkward when rolling out dough, even if you're rolling it out on foil.

Kitchens with no cabinets above the countertop. All that empty wall space and you couldn't put a single cabinet in it?

A kitchen with a "popcorn" wall (rare, thankfully). I had one of those and the wall just shredded sponges, cloths, and paper towels, making it damn near impossible to clean.

Countertops without a back splash of some kind.

Kitchens with no fan or vent to the outside above the stove.

A hardwood floor in a kitchen. They must not spill as much as I do.

Definitely agree with cabinets that don't go all the way to the ceiling or don't go all the way down to the floor.

Island cooktops with seating make me feel like I'm in a Japanese steakhouse

I’ve never seen a stove/oven next to the refrigerator. Wouldn’t it get food splattered all over the side from things cooking on the stove?

I don’t like when the stove or refrigerator is right at the doorway.

The reason for cabinets that do not go all the was to the ceiling is that most ceilings are uneven, even in new construction. If the molding meets the ceiling, the top cabinet rail is a trapezoid to compensate for the uneven ceiling.

Dishes and food stored on open shelving.

R35, you would hate our kitchen. We cook. Nearly everything is out, either on a shelf or hanging on the wall. Yes, things that are seasonal or that we do not use daily are in cupboards, but most everything else is out. And, yes, it is clean because everything is used too often to be covered in dust or grease.

Single sinks annoy me. It makes washing dishes nasty or an additional hassle. Two sinks all the way!

Fancy counter tops, nice subway tile backsplash, quality cabinets, nice appliances, then linoleum on the floors. Like really, you just gave up when it came to the floors?

Not respecting the triangle.

I do love those wall mounted ovens. Maybe it's because I've seen them on TV, but they look so fancy , fun and practical.

I guess I have two pet peeves. One is farmhouse sinks. I hate the idea of them, just like I hate barn-style doors. You shouldn't have any of these unless you live on a farm or in a barn.

The other pet peeve in the kitchen would be refrigerators not fitting in with the cabinets. Why are they deeper than cabinets and therefore have to stand out? It's very unsightly. I like the European concept where refrigerators are concealed and look like a kitchen cabinet from the outside.

Oak-y and/or highly beveled cabinetry.

Busy countertops - no matter how high quality - Like R11 pointed out.

DLers will probably think this is ultra trashy - but in a small kitchen, a cabinet above the fridge

Dead spaces in the corners (cabinetry). One solution is to put the sink in the corner, since the under-sink area is kind of a dead / unclean-feeling space. One of my favorite apartment kitchens had a corner sink.

Love Japanese kitchens. When I lived there, had enameled metal cabinets that went up to the ceiling. Felt so clean. Also, the hot water (gas) system was amazing. As soon as you turned on the faucet, hot water, no waiting. That was Japan.

Also hate tiled (especially small tiles) on counters and backsplashes. Why do that?

The cardinal kitchen sin is no window. Same with bathroom.

I hate island cooktops but island ranges are worse

I meant no cabinet above the fridge.

Speaking of old sinks, a friend has a 17th C chateau in the Jura mountains. Gorgeous little palace where Rousseau was a frequent, long-term houseguest. Anyhoo, the pantry gave me orgasms, and the kitchen was typical - so very old - with stone sinks. We had to hand wash all the crystal and china. Let me tell you, crystal breaks so easily in stone sinks. There is NO room for error. I recommended a few times they get sponge nets for the sinks but they shrugged. That house was sold over a decade ago, completely furnished with all the 18th and 19th Century dog-eared treasures, to a Russian oligarch. I wonder if he kept any of the old charm.

I have no cabinet above my fridge. Is that classy or trashy? Frankly, I’d rather not have a cabinet up there.

I don’t like when the island morphs into a banquette. Nobody can gather at the island and talk.

OP my apartment has that arrangement. There is absolutely no other way to do it though. At first it bothered me but it doesn’t seem to be a problem. It just looks annoying.

R1

Much of that has to do with NYS/NYC zoning laws in particular old and new law tenements.

By law habitable rooms must have windows for air and light. Kitchens and bathrooms can either have same or use mechanical ventilation ; those air grates you see in many kitchens and baths in buildings built say after 1950's or whatever connect to vents on roof that supply fresh air. In some buildings there is negative air flow in that grates in halls or common areas push fresh air out (again from roof or mechanical systems), while those inside apartments pull air in. Result is that instead of air (and associated odors) being pushed out from apartments into common areas, things go up and out instead.

Leaving aside studio apartments can see good reasons for having kitchen near front door. Then again grew up in a large suburban home where back service door lead to kitchen. That was the door Mom used when bringing groceries or other things to kitchen instead of having to walk all way from front door back to kitchen.

In large pre-war apartments that were designed and built with expectation a household would have servants there are often two entrances. Formal front door where residents and their guests enter, and a back service door near or off the kitchen.

Island benches are now 'de rigeur'. They are talking spaces and performance spaces.

Your audience watches as you cut, stir and mix. You must never turn your back on your audience.

I toured an old farmhouse belonging to a 19th c poet, the house had a wooden sink for washing the dishes and glasses so they wouldn’t break. I kinda like that idea.

Design that is too busy. People don't realize how many things create a pattern in a kitchen - many stone countertops, backsplashes, cabinet carpentry at times, hardware, flooring, lighting, curtains, etc. Some kitchens with lovely individual features end up looking like a Gloria Vanderbilt mishmash of clashing patterns.

Small kitchens almost always have the stove/range next to the fridge. Can't be helped. When cooking splashes on the side of the fridge you wipe it down when you wipe down the stove itself. Duh.

And, yes, I never understand the island ranges. I'd need liability insurance for burning/scalding/frying my guests.

I used to want everything hidden away but as I became a serious cook I wanted most things out and readily available. I have put some dishes/platters on shelves and despite the cons to that I appreciate how handy that is when cooking in a small space and juggling several dishes as once.

Not a horrible kitchen design, but I am curious: Coming from Europe I noticed that American kitchen sinks are usually under the kitchen window. Why is that? Is there a historic reason for that?

To look out the window while you do the dishes, r54, which historically were not done in dishwashers. Grandma *was* the dishwasher, and looking out the window was nicer for her than staring at a wall.

R34 - Here are two other reasons: First is cost. Cabinets cost money and cutting them down is cheaper than running them all the way to the ceiling. Second is the dreaded kitchen soffit. The soffit often gave space for the HVAC ducts and kitchen ventilation to run as well as to be used for electrical (you might as well use the ugly things for multiple purposes). Often can lights etc. are incorporated underneath where the soffit continues without cabinets underneath. The look is very cheap and dated, but did serve purposes I suppose. If you have no soffits present then see reason number 1 or R34's wise post.

I'd MUCH rather have a single deep sink than 2 or 3 bowls. For me, the sink is just where dirty dishes go to fester until they get put in the dishwasher. One sink bowl means all the biohazardous rotting crap goes into the disposal, instead of... er... "collecting & rotting" until the cleaning lady comes on Tuesday.

If you have 9 or 10-foot ceilings (the norm for modern American homes, even skyscrapers), ceiling-height cabinets would need a literal ladder to reach. And as noted, ceilings are NEVER truly square & level. It's also great to put lights on top aimed upward to provide bright diffused light, hidden behind top moulding.

My house has two dishwashers flanking the sink. I use clean dishes out of one, while putting dirty ones into the other, and only have to put away a few dishes when it's time for them to swap roles. My mom is appalled. My dad thinks it's cool. My partner thinks I'm weird for refusing to use anything that has to be hand-washed, and regarding hand-washed dishes as fundamentally gross & unsanitary.

[quote]My partner thinks I'm weird for refusing to use anything that has to be hand-washed, and regarding hand-washed dishes as fundamentally gross & unsanitary.

I think you're weird, too. Are you a Lysolina?

Maybe it's the angle, but in OP's pic, it looks like the cook would have to stand to the side to open the oven doors. There's not a whole lot of space there.

Why don’t you like the fridge next to the wall oven OP?

r48 they can talk at the side. I really like that setup for that kitchen's size.

R37, I love my single bowl sink. I can lay frying pans and 9" x 13" baking pans flat to soak. And for handwashing dishes, I use a dishpan.

I don't understand from r50 why the foyer is the kitchen?

[quote] instead of... er... "collecting & rotting" until the cleaning lady comes on Tuesday.

[quote] My house has two dishwashers flanking the sink. I use clean dishes out of one, while putting dirty ones into the other, and only have to put away a few dishes when it's time for them to swap roles.

He's not weird. He's lazy.

[quote] Why don’t you like the fridge next to the wall oven OP?

It's energy inefficient, I'm guessing. Something that creates heat next to something that supposed to keep things cold.

A friend has his "beer fridge" outside his house. It's under the eaves, but it does get morning sun (HOT climate). Really energy-inefficient.

I absolutely loathe the trend of different colored upper and lower cabinets. It looks ridiculous and is already very dated and out of fashion. I can't imagine how many people shelled out $50,000-$100,000 for a new kitchen, only to get such a horribly dated design.

R40 counter depth fridges are easy to find in the US, but generally more expensive than regular fridges.

And I'd kill to have room for a big kitchen island with the cooktop on it and room for barstools. I have seen several of these setups in friend's homes and not once have I seen anyone sitting at the bar doing anything while cooking was going on. My kitchen is a very long galley kitchen. It has its positives, but after 44 years with it I'd love to have a big wide kitchen where I could move in all directions, not just right or left.

Great trap hanging lamps.

I love my farm sink. When I wash wine glasses and other fragile things I put a large dish towel on the bottom of the sink makes a nice pad just in case.

R68 meant to type GREASE TRAP hanging lights.

This is the sort of DL thread I need right now. Seriously. Fun, escapist, gay, and I learn a little bit.

I love this thread!

With all the comments on cabinets and how they should reach the floor and ceiling, can you all explain the practicality of kitchens with high ceilings?

I don't think the kitchen looks that bad in the picture, but you would need a 12 foot ladder to get items from the top cabinets! And some of the stuff in there looks pretty big.

Take a look at the huge cabinets above the refrigerator. What could possibly be in there? Why not just use a storage closet?

I don't mind cabinets that don't reach the ceiling in some instances. I think with super high cabinets you'd try to store things that aren't used that much at the very top.

I get that you would store less frequently used stuff in higher cabinets, but in the pic at R72, it seems a bit perilous for anyone to be on a tall ladder reaching over, grabbing, and trying to bring down a 3 foot long ceramic serving platter from high level cabinets.

You're probably right, r74. And yet, I like that the storage goes up to the top. Just for looks, I appreciate that there is no break between the cabinets and the ceiling. It would be a dead spot that wouldn't serve the looks or a purpose other than collecting dust and grime. I'd probably store paper towel, toilet paper and my mother in law up there.

R72, they could just be faux cabinets. For the glass display cabinets, what would be the point? The items you display up there are so high up, you can barely seem them, and they'll just collect dust that the poor, underpaid cleaning lady is going to risk life and limb to bring down for proper washing and polishing.

Other ideas are just to put matching panels.

What do you all think of the more minimalist Italian kitchen designs like Boffi....(just scroll down through link to see different designs)

Or Pedini...

I know they are pretty overpriced at $100K

[quote] And [bold]90% of households [/bold]don't use their stove to cook their own meals. They either eat out, or use a quick-and-easy-microwave or [bold]hire someone from the lower classes[/bold] to deliver something.

Look at R16 telling on her classism like that. “90%” hire “the lower classes” okay hon 🤣

I like having the high cabinets to store extra sets of dinnerware that don’t get used often. Also it’s good for bulk items. All you need is a step stool tucked in a closet nearby.

I'm having flashbacks to my 4th floor walkup (5th floor for Yanks) in Paris.

The kitchen was the worst. A single row of removable cabinets and countertops with a sink not much bigger than a bar sink in a suburban home. Countertop all ridged stainless steel, nowhere flat to put anything. Two flat-top burners, and an oversized toaster oven/rotisserie (Frenchies gotta have their roast chicken). The refrigerator fit under the counter too, like a dorm frig.

Not much cooking went on there.

"Dorm frig"

Oh Dear!

American here, but I get you R81. I lived in Madrid and London for awhile and I feel like the major kitchen appliances for most people there including washer/dryer, are much smaller than what people would expect in an average mid-priced/sized home in the US.

Bathrooms located right off the kitchen (instant turnoff) -- puke!

So many horrible design mistakes already described.

I hate appliance garages. Pulled ours out.

My dream kitchen Would include the electrical outlets under the cabinets, like the lights.

Those modern kitchens are terrible. No counter space and they look cold and impersonal.

Wow R85 I was thinking "appliance garage" was just a mocking name for that but..... it's not.

R81, have you ever seen the kitchen that Julia Child had in Paris, when she learned to cook? It was the size of a closet.

A friend put a Pedini kitchen in his chalet in Cortina and had many problems with it.

Can you please elaborate R89?

Cortina just isn't going to work out.

I visited a friend who had a postage stamp sized kitchen in Sausalito. Like 6 feet, along one wall, including an apartment size fridge and stove and maybe 18” work space. No dishwasher. He had a hanging pot rack and some basic wire shelving for storage and still managed to turn out gourmet meals. So while it might be more pleasant to cook in a large, well equipped kitchen, as long as you know what you are doing and have the basic tools, it’s not necessary.

Laquer that scratched with soft cleaning, warped wood, bad fittings and runners, granite he didn't consider up to stuff. But my friend is VERY picky. I also wonder if the house was well maintained for temperature.

I’m not sure about the trend in upscale houses to have the main kitchen be streamlined for show and then a lot of The uglier things like microwave, toaster, extra fridge, coffeemaker, blender, warming drawers in the supersized pantry. It sounds nice but functionally seems tricky to cook in.

R88 In that Julia Child movie from quite a while back, they make her out to be a sex fiend who can't get enough orgasms, can't get enough of that D!

The South Fork (Dallas TV series) had two single door refrigerators both beside ovens.

[quote] I don't mind cabinets that don't reach the ceiling in some instances. I think with super high cabinets you'd try to store things that aren't used that much at the very top.

Renter here. The tops of my cabinets are unfinished particle board. I can't wipe it down. I hate it. At least the top of a refrigerator is enameled metal that you can wipe down.

If I could design my own kitchen, I would build in under-cabinet lighting. Not sure why it's not standard. I have an over-range microwave. The MW is now broken and the things I really miss are the two small light fixtures on the under side of the microwave. Those two small bulbs really helped with cooking on the stove top.

True r97. I vacuum them every couple of months.

I believe Carmela Soprano stored her samovar on a high shelf in her cabinets.

R40

Cut out area for fridges is what it is; so unless you're building new and or willing to do some major renovation you're stuck with things as are.

Refrigerator size ranges have changed over years, and what was available say in 1940's, 1950's, 1960's or even 1970's may no longer be today. This or whatever people can find that does fit, doesn't come in color or style wanted.

People have spent large sums of money repairing and old fridge because nothing else is available that will fit into same space.

Slightly off topic: I hate homes that are designed so that when you open the front door you're looking right up the stairs. I once saw a home so badly designed the front door grazed the bottom stair when you swung it open.

Back on topic: overuse of tiles and bad backsplash design. Yanking out poorly thought out and/or ugly tiles is such a nightmare.

R34, my solution was to use a hidden piece of moulding that "leveled off" the ceiling. Granted, my kitchen is NYC apartment small, so it didn't take much extra time/effort.

Do we all at least agree that the white subway tile is out? I still see this being put into newly renovated homes, and some are trying to squeeze the last bit of life out of it by installing the tiles to be oriented vertically rather than the usual horizontal.

I didn’t think it was ever in, R104, I positively loathe white or any other color subway tile.

It is the most boring, unimaginative, ugly, lifeless, uninteresting, flat and, did I mention boring, backsplash ever.

I'm wondering... in countries that have adopted the American norm of built-in cabinets in standard sizes, but are "100%" metric (like Australia), how do you decide how much width to leave for the range and overhead microwave oven? In the US, they're nominally 30 inches, and kitchen cabinets are generally sized as multiples of 3 inches. But I know that 30 inches comes out to 76.2cm, and I'm assuming that in "metric" countries, cabinets probably run in standard sizes that are whole multiples of 5 or 6 centimeters.

So, how do you deal with the "30 inch range" problem? Do they make slightly-different ranges that are exactly 75cm wide for sale in "Metric" countries? Use some other width that's a "nice" metric size and sufficiently smaller or larger than 76.2cm to guarantee no "oh, shit... it's a few millimeters too wide to fit" problems (like maybe 65 or 70cm)? Make cabinets that are generally whole multiples of 5cm, but make an exception and include 76, 77, or 77.5cm as an additional standard width between 75 and 80cm to accommodate ranges made for 30-inch markets?

Ditto, for things like dishwashers. 24 inches is the norm for American dishwashers... which comes out to 61cm... too wide to fit if you left a 60cm gap, but would leave a gap of nearly an inch along both sides if you tried leaving a 65cm gap. And if you sized the gap to be exactly 61cm, you wouldn't be able to find a wall cabinet that's a whole multiple of 5cm that would properly sit above it & would have your sizing for the entire row of wall cabinets thrown off.

I know that in Canada, they just accept that they're stuck with 3" standardized cabinet widths for all eternity... and in Germany & much of continental Europe, they just don't build-in kitchen cabinets. But most British and Australian kitchens I've seen photos of appear to have the same kind of mass-produced built-in cabinets that American kitchens do.

Then again, I know Britain and Australia were both imperial as well until at least the 1970s. So, maybe they just said "screw it" with trying to force "pure" metric kitchen dimensions, and just decided to size cabinets in whole multiples of 76.2mm? Or started with 77cm as the baseline reference from which all subsequent dimensions are derived, and add or subtract some whole multiple of some "nice" whole number of centimeters or millimeters to 77 to derive the standard widths for the rest of the cabinets in the kitchen?

Mundane trivia, but I still think it would be fascinating to know. :-)

I kind of like that appliance garage at R85.

Really R105? I feel like circa 2015, the whole subway tile for kitchens was all the rage, especially when combined with a more rustic aesthetic.

I always wonder about those of you who are always complaining about other's decorating choices. It's like nothing is ever right. Post a picture of a kitchen that is decorated properly. What kind of tile is correct? What kind of countertops are correct? Help us out here.

Mary! at R109, the thread is titled HORRIBLE kitchen design. By definition we're not sharing the things we like.

I’ve seen brass showing up more in design magazines and I’m not a fan

Here is a slightly updated Walter Gropius designed kitchen, in London. It's just about ideal and incredibly chic. If I had money I would have metal kitchen in BAUHAUS style, or original bauhaus designs.

Is brass considered cheap? I have no idea.

R50's link with the picture of a tenement triggered my memory of W. C. Fields trying to sleep on the porch while a salesman is looking for Carl LaFong: "It's A Gift" (1934). Possibly the funniest thing I've ever seen.

Of course I forgot to link it -- sorry!

Of course that's the wrong link!

Well, yeah, R108, but just because everybody is doing it doesn’t mean it’s good. Or stylish. Or interesting in any way, shape or form. 😬😬

I'll take the subway tile over a migraine-inducing busy mosaic.

Subway tiles were definitely 'in', for way too long. And I actually like them in the right setting. But just like granite counter tops and stainless steel appliances they became ubiquitous , so they no longer made a statement other than 'I try to get my bathroom or kitchen up to the latest fashion trend'.

I'll add subway tiles as my third HGTV shill disaster next to farmhouse sinks and barn-style doors. Ewwww...

Yes, R119.

Plus that shiplap crap.

Subway tile isn’t tacky, it’s a part of a legitimate style. It’s very nice when done right. It has been overused in the past decade, often inappropriately and shoddily done.

That's horrific R121, and the "Please make straight" is ironic on DL...

Anyway, if granite is out for countertops, what's new and fresh?

R40 For us it was a cost and space issue. A cabinet-depth refrigerator was $1800 more than a standard depth one, plus it had less available storage. Making a wider space for the fridge would cost us a set of drawers. So we gritted our teeth and bought the standard size one.

Looks like shit but what can you do.

Oh, I get it. Same for me and my kitchen. I just don't understand why this is not better coordinated within the industry. Alternatively, I wouldn't mind giving counter space those additional four inches of depth. But yes, for us too it came down to budget to rectify what the industry messes up. So we ended up with a truly 'outstanding' but affordable refrigerator.

I realized the other day that my large refrigerator (double door, French doors, pullout freezer on bottom) is filled with things to GO with food! Has anyone ever had two refrigerators, one for condiments and drinks and the other for actual food?

Open shelves.

Avocado appliances and harvest yellow laminate counter tops.

My mother's kitchen had those counter tops and she wall papered the powder room with similar paper to the pic. My older sister bought refrigerator paint and sprayed her appliances harvest gold.

I don't mind some open shelves - as long as there's some cabinets too.

The modern concept of a huge great room containing open concept kitchen with big island, floating dining table and then seating area facing TV leaves me cold.

But isn't that how people live R129? Gone are the days when you had rooms that you were only allowed to go into for holidays and special occasions. The whole house is supposed to be livable.

I agree with livability but don’t think that means it has to be all in one rectangular room R130. I think rooms can have flow and good sight lines while still having some warmth and definition. Just my preference.

R130 I'm not R129 but I agree with them, those big open great room/kitchens are very hard to set up in a way that feels warm and looks nice. Too frequently it feels like a warehouse or gymnasium with different sections set up in it. You can still have fully used rooms and a livable space while separating them, even leaving them more open to each other than most rooms are, but less open than in the pic.

R79 What do you call those lowly-paid people who deliver your dinner?

Would you do that job for their lousy wage?

I don't see the open plan design going away anytime soon. I'm looking for a house now and ALL the new constructions are open plan. The only time you can avoid it is when you're buy older houses built in like 1960 or something.

Whenever you deviate from standard for kitchens it tends to cost more. Fridges that aren't any of the standard counter depths or other measurements, cost more.

This also explains why portable dishwashers can cost more or same as built-in (market isn't that large so money has to be made on selling lower amounts but at higher prices). Ditto for why 18" dishwashers often aren't that much cheaper than full size.

Except for my parents’ house and houses built before 1980, I have not seen a formal, separate dining room in a house in forever. I’m not sure formal dining even exists any longer.

Open floor plans are still in heavy use, but it seems that the absolute horror of McMansion style open floor plans have peaked. A lot now are a more modified open floor plan, where you can get some half walls or archways to help break up space. Also on trend are the use of glass walls which create the feel of open floor while still dividing rooms. And there's a whole industry developing around fixing horrible open floor plan houses.

^ Forgot to add, a friend is in the middle of building a house and he's using a modified open floor plan. Kitchen and dining are open, but there is a living room and den which are each separate rooms, one of them behind glass doors to create a partial open feel.

One more thing: if you've never treated yourself to this blog, do it! Warning, you will lose many hours reading through her archive.

There are still formal dining areas (not rooms) in modern houses that are typically to your left or right as soon as you enter a home. They can also be converted to a home office or study if formal dining is not needed.

My home growing up had a nice way of doing an open-ish/not-quite-open kitchen/living room that I like much better than the big warehouse style kitchen/living room combos popular today. There was a large kitchen with space for a table to eat at, and a great room parallel to it. A wall covered most of the border between them, except with a wide opening between the two near where the table was placed. So the rooms were visually separated but felt connected and open to each other. It's hard to describe without a pic but a brief google can't find any similar plans. When you were cooking in the center of the kitchen, you felt like you were in a separate room. Sitting at the table you felt like the great room was accessible, but you weren't quite in it yet.

We had the dreaded cooktop-in-the-island, but mitigated by the fact that the seating part of the island was raised much higher than the cooking/countertop part so they felt separate and you couldn't reach out and burn yourself.

The floorplan included a separate formal dining room but we didn't put a dining table in it, although we still called it "the dining room."

The caveats are that we had a lot of space to make it work, it was built in the 90s so some of the choices may be out of style, and my parents were immigrants who did not care whatsoever about suburban norms or trends when they built it.

Been there, and done that when growing up; dining room was rarely if ever used outside of major holidays (Thanksgiving or Christmas family meals), and sometimes not even then.

All the trouble of setting table (complete with good china and silver), and no one went near; everyone either at in the kitchen or in front of television.....

In homes of today a dining room likely is a waste of space. Dining area like Samantha Stephens had off her living room in Bewitched is more modern and slightly better IMHO.

That blog post is excellent R137.

Absolutely loathe open floor plans...

There's something to be said for keeping a bit of space between mayhem in kitchen and one's guests.

Besides open floor plans all but invite backseat cooks to wander over and offer their unsolicited advice. Will Truman's apartment on W&G bugged me because cannot see how pre-war building would have that open floor plan kitchen/dining area/living room. A studio apartment maybe, but not a two bedroom.

Then again Will Truman was always cooking or baking something...

Will Truman's kitchen also had the magical property of being soundproofed from the living area for private discussions R144. Unless of course one of you were behind the counter and one on the couch, then you could hear each other.

I LOVE those glass dividing walls at R137 ! Thats an old European idea.

I don't know how to describe the style, but those small horizontal tiles as seen at r66 for me is another example of tile work that never should have happened in the first place. Not attractive, dizzying and another good example of something that looks outdated at the start.

Open floor plans are not a modern concept. Originally, they came up to manage the temperature better for everyone living inside. But you cannot deny the additional advantage of the large living space as a center for your family or social life.

Personally I very much like the 'half-open' floor plan as mentioned above, with half walls, glass dividers or even different floor levels. It's probably my preferred concept.

God R148! where would you go to jerk off in a house like that?

Oh, I don't want that. Just saying it's a rather old concept. I am not giving up my privacy for that.

I love those R77, so clean and modern. I hate the idea that kitchen has to look like some Karen picked it out from her local discount design center.

All the old queens hate open plans, gee what a surprise.

Get over it girls, especially now, with people cooking more than ever before and some learning how to, I predict it will become even more popular.

R139, that is a goldmine. "90's Taco Bell Valance" LOL

^^Gold mine^^

I actually dont mind center island cook tops if they are done right with induction instead of gass and a flush mount ceiling smoke removal system instead of a big large kitchen hood.

R148, how dreadful. Sumerian housewives understood the benefits of privacy.

Where's the bathroom r156?

R152, are you the queen who has been demanding for the last 20 years that we all eschew stainless steel and granite and embrace open plans and concrete?

Well if you can get your feet washed in the courtyard, then you can certainly shit in the street, r157!

R157 NO I CAN'T!

I MEANT R159!

[quote]are you the queen who has been demanding for the last 20 years that we all eschew stainless steel and granite and embrace open plans and concrete?

Nope, I am not that old. Why would I push that. Just stating a fact, open pans are here to stay. Permanent change in society, they are not a fad like subway tile or farmhouse sinks. Formal living Room vs Family room is gone as well. No one builds houses like that for a reason, no one uses a formal living room like they did in old times. Even very wealthy people who have personal chefs will sometimes have two kitchens, the one for the workers and the one facing the living area so the people living there can pretend they cook. That and it's a known fact people like to gather in kitchens. It's been that way since man gathered around a fire. The idea of a closed off kitchen is really an abstraction in normal human behavior patterns if you think about it.

God kill me if I am on the DL for 20 years.

^^open plans^^

R16, Your percentage claim is out of your posterior. Do you think everyone is upper middle class or above?

[quote]it's common in Europe for kitchens to not include cabinets, so they need to be semi portable

It's not very common now, except in Germany which remains semi-wed to the idea. Europeans do not generally move their kitchens from house to house; most people start again in the new space because, well, kitchens are not all the same and European kitchens were never more than semi-modular.

It happens but with the same frequency as in American houses: very seldom.

R17, It's not a matter of "lazy;" it's a matter of strength to carry a big pot of water. The flaw, of course, is in the emptying.

[quote]open pans are here to stay.

That’s where the Sumerian housewives shit!

You're too fucking sensitive: vomiting (in all caps, no less) because a refrigerator is next to a wall oven?

Because the sacred "work triangle" is violated?

Not all kitchens lend themselves to your rules. Sometimes it's impossible to put the kitchen sink under a window so that the aproned housewife can take cheer from spotting the first robin of spring because to achieve one rule is to violate three more important rules.

A kitchen as a 'design' focus.

On trend kitchens.

They just date and of course get gutted and replaced.

Very wasteful.

R77, I happen to love "minimalist Italian" Modern. My absolute favorite style.

R85, I have two appliance "garages" and really like the clean look. Inside one are my blender, mini-chopper, and Cuisinart; the other houses a basket of reading glasses and electronics accessories like ear buds, charging cords, chargers, etc.

I had to buy three bookcases to store my Le Creuset pots in my dining room. My kitchen cabinets can hold a lot, but not all.

Girly, crafts, sparkly, shiny (i.e., The Property Brothers) backsplashes with little bitty whimsical tiles in a thousand bright colors.

Few surfaces need backsplashes, maybe near a stove or a sink, but big fucking American kitchens have acres of fussy little micro-tile backsplash in glass and ceramic and stone and sparkly bursts of unicorn farts in metallic. It's tragic and unnecessary. What are these people doing - throwing eggs and squirting condiments behind their toasters? It makes a calm kitchen schizo.

Undecorated tiles or allover pattern of normal sized tiles, or an expanse of stone or metal if you must, but stop with all the expression of kitschy personality. It looks like shit.

Armchair real estate porn addicts who get their panties in a bunch because a $4M house they can't begin to afford has a kitchen that isn't to their exact taste. Well change it, then, with the same money you don't have to buy the house with.

Sensible people expect to make changes when buying a house; everyone has their own scope of work their willing to undertake. The point of owning a house is that it's yours to do what you want with, not live with what a landlord has provided.

Whoever invented open floor plans ought to have been shot.

Agreed, R175. There are a very few instances where they are tolerable. Two forces are at work. One, the are the idea that everyone is a Pucci pant-suited Ina Garten of a hostess around whom guests flock and engage in witty banter whilst she whips up something utterly splendid and in no time at all. Two, make them do more with less: like this shitty floor plan below where, if you are in the living room you will see your dirty dishes, pots and pans cooling from the last meal, the rag used to wipe the counter, the soap used to clean the dishes, the overflowing too small recycling bin, all out on display barely an arm's length away from the farthest seat on the sofa (it's cheap, or the cheapest thing out there, and all the Marie Kondo's and less-is-more and save-the-planet people are living in nice houses with separate kitchens while you contemplate the hum of your refrigerator and turn up the volume of the TV to drown out the dishwasher..

[quote]Whoever invented open floor plans ought to have been shot.

Sooo, according to your article it was Frank Lloyd Wright should be shot? Along with Architects like Richard Neutra and R.M. Schindler? I will take their vision over your opinion any day. And fortunately, so has the rest of America. It's been going in that direction for the last 80 years! Times have changed Gramps. Deal with it.

R176, I cant imagine that small space being divided into a separate kitchen, dinning and living room. If that's all the space that is allocated for a single apartment, then open plans make for common sense. We cant all afford to live in McMansions such as yourself.

The irony of this emphasis on glamour kitchens is that 75% of them go unused most of the time since few of any people have the inclination or desire to cook. All that stainless steel, granite, ceramic tile and laminate flooring is really unnecessary when most people are reheating take out and popping frozen shit in the microwave for their meals. Hell, even Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners can be ordered on-line and simply reheated in an oven.

You see a lot of that in new condos r176. Last spring a friend invited me to tag along condo hunting, and she insisted on downtown. The new builds were small, tiny actually. Some had a kitchen, dining area, and living room in the same space as would have been just a living room 20 years ago. Lots of closet space, and huge bathrooms but master bedrooms maybe 9x9 in size.

But the older gut jobs were worse. Most had those seemingly random support beams on the ceilings and those dreaded drywall covered posts.

Oh look the 1% at R179 is posting again. News flash, except for uppity NYC queens, the vast majority of people cook most of their meals. Eating out and delivery is expensive for an every day is too expensive for the average income person these days. It's done as a treat not as a regular daily lifestyle.

[quote]I cant imagine that small space being divided into a separate kitchen, dinning and living room. If that's all the space that is allocated for a single apartment, then open plans make for common sense. We cant all afford to live in McMansions such as yourself.

Of course there's no easy way to create a kitchen from the living room at R176. You get a kitchen wall along one end exposing its ass to the shitty little living room, all because what should be a one bedroom apartment is carved into two bedrooms sacrificing a remotely decent kitchen for another bedroom. That apartment is 700 square feet, but here's one with only 376 square feet, just over half the size of the "two-bedroom," slightly less expensive, but vastly better in space because it recognizes its limitations. The tiny apartment is superior to the much bigger apartment because it sticks a very small kitchen in its own space and leaves the living room a pleasant space without stacks of dirty dishes on view, where you could wash your dirty dishes without getting up from the sofa.

It's not about McMansions, it's about providing some basic sense of decency to people at the lower and lowest rungs of the real estate ladder. In this case I've show two condos that are among the very cheapest for sale in a city center. Example A with the open kitchen and maximized economic potential (the lucky owner can take in a roommate whose dirty dishes he can admire whenever he sits in the living room) fails; Example B, smaller and somewhat cheaper, succeeds because it doesn't try to wring every cent out of the property and makes the best of a small space: a space that lent itself to being a small one-bedroom apartment was renovated as a small one-bedroom apartment.

R177: Yes, yes, Frank Lloyd Wright and other prominent architects designed houses that experimented with opening kitchens as part of the public spaces of a house. It's a natural progression considering a host of social changes, but those kitchens are not bare-assed ugly like Example A, they well considered.

Here's an example of one of Wright's early ones from 1933, but you see that while it is incorporated to and thoroughly connected to adjacent space it is still pulled back, still somewhat apart from the main spaces. These early designs did not have a big walloping entertaining kitchen with the refrigerator in line of sight from the front door and mom's eyes scanning from behind the cooktop island the whole of the open plan spread to see which of the kids is masturbating or crushing the dog. Open plan kitchens may not be everyone's idea of a dream house, but they can make sense in the right context. Every house, however, doesn't provide the right setting. And living in the U.S. you should know that popularity doesn't always make a thing right.

Open plans are a cheap ass move by developers to save money on construction and they convinced helicopter parents it was desirable.

The chef's kitchen thing is so stupid. A simple whirlpool stove is fine for most of the cooking that most people do. These fancy over the top kitchens are just for show.

As for the open floor plan I think it's based on the way people entertain.

At every straight party I go to the guys always end up either in the kitchen drinking and talking or around a TV. While the women are grouped together in the food area. For gay parties it's the tops who are in the kitchen or around the TV and the bottoms are gossiping in the food area.

The open concept keeps everyone together in the same open space.

There's a huge difference between an open floor plan that's designed to maximize space in a small home or apartment and the gargantuan cheap-ass nightmare that they became in oversized homes with absurd layouts. A good designer can create an open floor plan that makes a small space feel bigger but still allows some measures of division, with tricks like floating kitchen cabinets, island bars, half walls, wall windows, etc. At the other end of the spectrum are those homes that are so large that a wide open floor plan simply makes no sense. A floor plan with something called a "great room" is a big red flag that it's a cheap and poorly crafted mess.

A design such as this makes the kitchen feel like a separate room, but you still get the benefits of an open layout. I'd prefer floating cabinets to shelves, but that's just personal preference. Plus it maximizes counter (which should be the #1 priority for any kitchen design) and storage space in what would otherwise be an absurdly tiny kitchen.

Compare ^ that to this, which is just stupid:

R187, that looks like the clubhouse at my aunt's retirement community.

R152 is dead wrong, the hype over open plans is already tempering. This article about it was conveniently published today.

Well R187, in a retirement community it makes sense to have one GIANT room with no dividers whatsoever where everyone can see everything and everyone at all times in case someone keels over and needs help. In a large home, though, it just means a cheap builder tricked some dupe into thinking it was a hot trend.

R179, WTH do you live?! And whence your bold assertions about how "few....people have any inclination or desire to cook"?!

Talking out of your ass.

In the suburban house where I grew up, the kitchen / dining / living areas were in an L shape. The dining area was at the corner of the L. There was a large pass-through between the kitchen and the dining room. No wall between the dining / living rooms. The dining room table did get used a fair bit: for homework, overflow projects from the kitchen, etc.

City apartment living is a different story. Unless you're very wealthy, you'd be lucky to get a small kitchen with a small, combined living/dining area.

I don't mind the open concept so much. My preference is something like what I grew up with (semi-open).

R189, that link is to an article about open offices, not open kitchen/dining/living spaces. The bit at the end about homes doesn't really say much at all, other than comments from a single designer.

Personally, I moved to an open floor plan in my old circa-1939 home because the space was small and the rooms were claustrophobic. Opening it up made a huge difference and I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

My current home doesn't have that problem and it would be much more problematic to try to come up with an open plan that makes sense, so I'm leaving it alone, with separate kitchen, dining room, and living room.

How often are these fucking people "entertaining" that they feel they need their kitchen open to the entire living room?

I hate the mixture of stainless steel and brass hardware in the same room. That to me it is as bad as the top cabinets being a different color than the bottom cabinets.

How often are people "entertaining" that they need a completely separate and discrete "dining room"?

If you spend more than 15 minutes in the kitchen when you have guests over, you are entertaining wrong.

I think having a “messy kitchen” behind the open concept show kitchen is more pretentious than a separate formal dining room.

Having your kitchen area open to the sitting area (whether it's a dining or living room) makes sense if your home is small enough that you don't want guests crowded into one area, or don't have room for the kind of furniture you need to lay out your meals (or cocktails). So it makes sense for an apartment or home such as R186--you can imagine someone using the kitchen as part of the staging area, or needing to be in the kitchen to mix the drinks, and with a large number of guests you'll have people both sitting and standing/moving around. But no one in the kitchen in R187 is going to be chit-chatting with someone sitting on the couch, unless you enjoy chit-chat by shouting. The wide open layout in a huge home serves no functional purpose except to advertise that you paid way too much for it.

[quote] I think having a “messy kitchen” behind the open concept show kitchen is more pretentious than a separate formal dining room.

IMO, it's not pretentious to have a separate formal dining room. Especially if your house / apartment tends to be the usual gathering place for occasions (e.g., Thanksgiving). To insist that everybody should have that type of dining room is silly, though. It's just not feasible or even desirable for everybody.

As one believes above linked Atlantic article made clear formal dining rooms began to vanish from middle class households at least thanks in large part to living without servants.

Back when even middle class homes could afford (and find) an army of servants including maids, cooks, and childminders a separate dining room made sense. Madame wasn't the one doing the cooking, and thus didn't have to worry about also supervising her children and or running a household while cranking out three or four meals per day.

As servants vanished home design changed. Instead of formal dining rooms by 1960's or whatever you got dining areas off living rooms that allowed Madame to still see out and supervise but still stuck segregated away from her family in kitchen. Worse without childminders most suburban women had no other choice but to bring infants and children into kitchen instead of leaving them alone in other part of house. That is unless they were old enough to be left alone say in dining area or living room where a mother could still peer out and monitor.

Legions of children grew up doing homework at kitchen tables because that is where their mothers were in hours after school. There or again that dining room table in dining area off living room that could be seen from kitchen.

You look at a's house in Ab Fab. That huge place with a very lovely sitting room and IIRC even dining room on main floor, but yet as in real life homes all action took place in kitchen downstairs.

That was and still is issue with row/town house living. They were largely designed for an era of servants, thus kitchens are downstairs, while living and entertaining spaces are above. That worked out well in Victorian and Edwardian times; but when servants vanished housewives were on their own trudging up and down several flights of stairs all day long.

Many who purchase those old row or town houses will knock down wall or otherwise open things up between dining and living room to create one great open space. If there is a way possible they will also move kitchen or add another on main floor to avoid having to trudge up and down stairs all day.

I have to wonder at some of the rules on kitchen design here (and across the interwebs I should add). In the real world you get the floorspace and budget you can afford and try to make the best of it. After nearly 20 years coping with a tiny 6x8 ft kitchen with about 2 ft of usable bench space I finally had the money, time and energy to do a home renovation. 90% of the "rules" posted here just don't apply if you've got such a small space to play with. By knocking out the wall between the kitchen and dining I gained an extra 20 inches of bench space, moving the fridge into the dining space got me another 2 feet, putting in a single tub sink got me a corner cabinet with a lazy susan, reducing the bench depth on one side to 20 inches got me a slimline dishwasher and two good sets of drawers.

I'm in kitchen heaven now. I wouldn't care if the whole thing was done in baby pink with the world's ugliest cabinets.

R202 that’s awesome you love your kitchen but to many people aesthetics are an important component too.

Does one need a library in the kitchen?

Moisture & paper don't mix.

Bring back servants!

[quote]I don't mind cabinets that don't reach the ceiling in some instances. I think with super high cabinets you'd try to store things that aren't used that much at the very top.

That's where the hoarded toilet paper goes, sillies!

I used to rent in a home laid out similarly to the one in R137's post, and despised it. Whoever thought putting bedrooms right next to the noisiest areas of a house should be shot. I broke my lease and moved as soon as I could.

That place pictured at R187 looks like a bitch to heat.

R182, that kitchen is a torture closet for anyone who loves to cook. No thank you, I will take an open kitchen plan in a small place like that any day. Besides, what with the "dirty dishes" mantra? How long do you leave that shit to pile up in your sink? How many people are you actually entertaining in a 350sq ft apartment? I clean up my kitchen after every meal, it's not that hard for 1 or 2 people. You sound like a hoarder.

I would feel trapped in R186 kitchen, those shelves would have to go, the counter could stay. I would love, love love a kitchen like the R187. I like to cook, and some of the things I make can takes hours. During those times I am out about the house doing other things but need to pop in say every 15 minutes to check on things or make sure something hasn't boiled over. An open plan makes that a dream, a closed off room makes it a pain in the ass.

Reading these posts people don’t seem to have a problem with open concept when there are space and budget limitations or an older home with tiny rooms being opened up some. It’s the cavernous McMansions built from scratch with space galore who choose a great room with a floating island as the ideal layout.

[quote]the hype over open plans is already tempering. This article about it was conveniently published today.

Dream on Gramps. One article dose not a movement make. And if you bothered to read it says nothing about closing off kitchens. Mostly talks about walls and partitions coming back into office spaces which I agree with. Dedicated rooms for Yoga? Really? That's your argument?

This is why they are not going away anytime soon. From the people who actually buy houses and live in them, not from the builders or architects that have theories about it.

An open plan doesn't mean it's always a great room or nothing. There is a big difference and I will concede I never liked the idea of one giant room. But conversely, I think kitchens open to a dining room are a must if you actually like to entertain. People love hanging out it kitchens. They just do, that's where all the action is unless you are so wealthy that you have a cooking staff.

I have lived in two 1300 sq ft bungalows and would never part with my walls. They absorbed sound and made the place seem larger (more rooms, more destinations). Open plan houses of the same size just feel like apartments to me. I guess they’re fine if you live alone.

Also, more walls, more places to hang art.

Most pre-war Craftsman houses have high ceilings, so it didn’t feel claustrophobic to me at all. I prefer a more hygge vibe, though, so to each their own.

R213, I’d say a home building company has a lot invested in convincing the masses they need cheap open plans.

The hidden "messy" kitchen solves nothing, for the cooking elements are still in the open concept zone, with attendant smells, vapors, and noise. And why would the person cooking want the refrigerator in a different area behind them?

IOW, just put the entire kitchen behind the wall.

Here's the opposite of horrible kitchen design, just a big, airy room beautifully fitted as a kitchen, with loads of storage in the pantry beyond.

Of course you will hate it.

R218 - Ooooh.. Beautiful! On the contrary, I love many of their offerings. What a find!

Yes R218 that kitchen is horribly dreary and depressing. I guess if you like pretending you live in the turn of the 20th century then that fits the bill. Not for me or most people under they age of 60.

R220, check out some of the company's other offerings. Very well done.

[quote] cooking elements are still in the open concept zone, with attendant smells, vapors, and noise. And why would the person cooking want the refrigerator in a different area behind them?

How bad is your cooking that it stinks! Food is supposed to smell good r218. Watching the prep and process is something people like to do. Have you never been to a high class restaurant where all the chefs are in a kitchen behind a clear glass wall so you can see how the magic is made? A good meal is more than just a plate of food shoved in front of you from another room, its about the build up of the whole process which wets the apatite. That includes something smelling good as it cooks and the anticipation that builds as your senses kick into high gear for what's to come.

As for refrigerators, behind them? Not sure what you are talking about but speak to any professional kitchen designer and they will explain to you about the working triangle of the stove, the refrigerator and the sink. Linear design like a galley kitchen or a large enclosed room with appliance at opposite ends is probably the worst configuration you could have. Just as a purely functional level that is.

^^MARY!!

[quote] everyone has their own scope of work their willing to undertake.

Oh, dear!

[quote] with attendant smells,

Perhaps you should hire different attendants if yours stink.

[quote]Have you never been to a high class restaurant where all the chefs are in a kitchen behind a clear glass wall so you can see how the magic is made?

Yes. Though we part ways on watching the magic being made. For me, it's the food first and secondly the whole experience. A visible kitchen in one thing, especially in a small restaurant where it's an aspect of the limited space, but too much kitchen theatre and and tableside preparation is...forced, like a Benihana on a cruise ship, or harkening back to asking the field slaves to whistle and do a little dance while picking cotton.

As for smelling food, of course good food smells good—but that's before you sit down to eat. No matter how good the pot roast, curry, roast chicken, wood-fired pizza, crema catalana, or whatever smells before sitting down to eat, I don't want to smell it for hours after I've eaten.

Working for a catering company I hate open plan kitchens just for the fact I don’t want the guests lingering and watching while we’re working. I interact with them usually but there are times they just need to leave us alone. I especially hate when we’re arranging appetizers to be passed and guests will walk up and start grabbing stuff before we’re finished with a tray. We just grit our teeth and say No problem. But this is a very specific grievance with open plan.

For myself I’m actually looking at houses right now. I like some openness for entertaining but I don’t like the giant cavernous room with a kitchen at one end. I like a kitchen with a large island and even an eating area that flows to a family room or “keeping room” as realtors here call them, but I still like a separate dining room as well especially with a butler’s pantry between the kitchen and dining room. You can get away with less upper cabinets if a lot of the stuff is moved to a butler’s pantry. In my city at least, the vast majority of higher end houses are “open plan” like I described in that yes the kitchen is open to A living and informal dining area but there still dining rooms and other living areas in other parts of the house that flow from one to the other. They may not have full walls between but it’s not just one giant room with a kitchen stuck on one wall.

[quote] tableside preparation is...forced, like a Benihana on a cruise ship, or harkening back to asking the field slaves to whistle and do a little dance while picking cotton.

I hope you have a safe parachute to softly land after your giant leap.

Seen this multiple times in Europe: toilet one door away from the kitchen and extraction fans over stove tops that don't vent anywhere. Yikes.

Kitchen starts at 7:46. What do you all think of the more modern design? It's both open but separated off from other rooms.

That is my dream house at R230

What do we think of islands with sinks and dishwashers?

We this thread makes me even more glad that I don't cook or entertain people worth a damn. As long as my coffeemaker, fridge and microwave are working, I'm good!

I like it too R231! I like the the natural light floor to ceiling windows bring, but I'm sure they're expensive and a pain in the ass to keep clean. But would people consider it an "open floor plan?" It seems so, but the rooms connecting to the kitchen also appear to have their own distinctiveness.

I love the kitchen at R218! The one at R230 is also great, it is open but still defined and doesn’t face the main room.

Gotta love the queen insisting that most people don’t cook in their kitchens and rely on servants and takeout to feed themselves. Does this bitch ever get the fuck out and talk to actual people???

This is all very helpful, as we are planning someday to completely redo our kitchen, which is original to the 1957 ranch style home. We've lived with it for 5 years since we bought it, and it's certainly a conversation piece with guests, who marvel that the original wall oven and electric stovetop still work, and the boomerang Formica countertops. The knotty pine cabinetry, although in pristine condition, just isn't very nice to look at.

We'd never knock down any walls to make it the dreaded open concept, but I do like the idea of a large center island, perhaps with a sink and dishwasher as in the video at r230

My aunt lives in a modern dream home that is shaped like an L. The large kitchen is in the short end of the L. It has a huge island with a second sink, and tons of storage space. In the crook of the L adjacent to the kitchen is the "family room" with TV, then as you progress down the long part of the L, large dining table, and beyond that, the "living room" area with fireplace and more formal seating.

Because of the size of the house she's able to accommodate the entire extended family and friends for large parties. At first, everyone congregates in the kitchen family area, gobbling appetizers and getting in the way of the "chefs" (family and friends who can cook). The dining/living area is large enough to set up tables for a large sit down dinner.

It's fabulous for entertaining, but when empty, not particularly cozy. At that time just the kitchen and family sections get used.

[quote] boomerang Formica countertops.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is this?

R238

A design of Formica countertops, for example.

Open plan design is the architectural equivalent of LIVE LAUGH LOVE.

R222, Did you actually look at the "messy kitchen" design? The refrigerator is behind the wall; the range is in front of it.

And presumably you've heard of garlic, fish, onions, cumin, steam, ....? Ingredients before they comprise the final dish sometimes are best left in the kitchen and not the living room. Speaking of others, not myself. I have a good friend who cannot stand the smells of Mexican or Indian food.

Thanks, r239!

[quote]We'd never knock down any walls to make it the dreaded open concept, but I do like the idea of a large center island, perhaps with a sink and dishwasher as in the video at [R230]

R236: A big kitchen can be a great thing, big enough to do what is needed of the space. A center island, open to a large dining table...I see why people like these things, but for me a kitchen should be its own space, defined not just by having appliances and a sink and countertop surfaces, but by a break in or a different ceiling, or a wall of windows, or some design cue to help define the space (without closing it off like a tomb.) A big kitchen that opens into another space can be great if the way that they are both joined and apart is well considered.

What doesn't work for me are big amorphic spaces where there's no architecture, just a horizontal sprawl of one vague shape opening into another vague shape—the "I can see your refrigerator from the front door" or "Even though it's quiet as a kitten's purr I can hear that fucking expensive dishwasher all the way across the house on this sofa because bwteen me and the dishwasher it's just a big vois with some random sofas."

The pic below shows an open plan kitchen that looks like it dropped from space and left to orbit on its own inside a big amorphic house. It look like a concept restaurant at the international departures lounge, or a cooking school, or a vignette from a kitchen sales showroom. There's no connection to the rest of the house, it's just that that part of the house ends there, behind the kitchen sink. Is the baggage claim behind those closets? The point is that when a kitchen is open plan it should be planned in concert with the spaces its open to, not just pushed off in isolation to the side. It looks lost and is because there's no architecture, just a kitchen way over there looking a bit lost.

R233, it's definitely on the more acceptable end of the open floor plan with the architectural markers to separate out the rooms. Plus it helps that it's a linear plan divided in I think thirds, which is aesthetically pleasing, as opposed to a giant open space with no sensible divisions.

Modiani kitchen.... Italian, modern, and minimal.

Minimalism is my thing right now.

MORE MODIANI

R236, if the cabinets are in good shape, consider painting or staining them instead of replacing. It's a lot of work to do it right, but it's much cheaper, especially since it's hard to get that level of quality wood cabinetry now without busting your budget. Plus you can get so much more creative with color and design.

R247 perhaps this is a dumb question but I have no idea, can you stain wood cabinets a lighter color if they're dark, or is the only option to paint at that point?

Thanks r247. We've consider that, as well as refacing them, but we've been saving towards doing a major overhaul of the kitchen, custom cabinetry included.

We are a little hesitant, only because it's such a nice "time capsule" for 1957, but the novelty is starting to wear off. It's a big sized space, but lots of windows and entries to other parts of the house to work around.

The Great British Bake-Off show proved to me, you don't need a big kitchen. Each contestant has an "island" with countertop, burners and sink on the top, and ovens and storage below (and you could have cupboards above, for food and dishes). Refrigerator/freezer and dishwasher in a separate place, perhaps at the ends of the main island. And that's it.

R248 -- since you have no idea, it is not a dumb question. Finished wood, stained and sealed, is different than painted wood. Generally, paint sits in a layer on top of the surface that is painted - you can paint something that is painted dark a lighter color, it just might take more than one coat. Stain is a coloring agent applied to bare wood, and it is absorbed by the wood - "staining" it. Stained wood is still porous so it is sealed with a clear layer to protect the stain - varnish or poly. You can't re-stain wood with out removing the protective layer, and if you want to go lighter the thin layer of wood that as absorbed the dark stain - so chemical strippers and/or sanding is required.

You can however paint over finished stained wood - this was done a great deal in the past to "lighten up" dark old woodwork -- people either feel it is a "fresh look" or akin to murdering you grandmother.

R248, depending on the condition of the wood and the finishing, you might be able to stain it lighter than its current color. If you can sand it down thoroughly and in that process you either remove an already existing stain or lighten up the face of the wood, you could then apply a lighter stain to finish it. There are also ways to bleach wood, but you have to be really careful that you know what you're doing. The good thing is that as long as you doing ruin the wood, if you can't get it to a color and finish you like you can always paint it as an alternative.

^ Forgot to add, if you want to do this yourself definitely practice on some furniture or other items you don't mind messing up before you tackle something as expensive to replace as your kitchen cabinets!

thank you R251 and R252! 😗

I've lived in so many older apartments that I miss the old, built in place, cabinets. They're more flexible.

Sure, R245.

A dago kitchenette for Sicilian dwarves and no one else can see the sink they're using.

Try "minimalistic usefulness."

Those cabinets at r245 look like they belong in a Beverly Hills plastic surgeon’s office.

I made my first "gourmet" meal on a hotplate on the hallway floor outside my dorm room. Great cooks just don't need all that BS to serve up fabulous meals. An old friend built a house in the suburbs with everything you could dream of. She had a bunch of house warming parties including a dinner party with everyone oohing and awing over the kitchen. Everything - and I mean everything - she served tasted awful. Even the chicken was terrible. Considering it's pretty hard to ruin chicken I think she had a special skill for bad cooking or she just had taste issues.

In the olden days people wanted kitchens separate because the kitchen was full of noise including after with the dishwasher going.

I don't want to look at the kitchen still in disarray while I am eating a meal and I' not interested in washing up before I sit down to eat. As much as I love cooking, I also have no desire to watch a restaurant staff cook my meals when I spend money to have someone else cook for me. But that's just me.

Nobody needs a chefs kitchen with custom cabinetry, a six burner stove, marble countertops and two dishwashers. It doesn’t make food taste better. However it might be something some people enjoy and that’s great.

R258 You can make a nice meal on a hot plate, and doing so will force you to understand the techniques, but if you've got the space and money why not have something nicer? If your taste is utilitarian it can be as modest as you like while still being more convenient.

Actually two dishwashers means you rarely have to empty them and put stuff away in the cupboards. It’s very practical if you’re lazy.

I loved several of those kitchens at R218 .But sometimes I want to just leave the dishes soaking overnight. Sometimes just dont feel like cleaning up after I cook . I dont want the whole damn world to see that nor do I want to have to look at it all night. Definitely in the seperate kitchen camp .

[quote]I like it too [R231]! I like the the natural light floor to ceiling windows bring, but I'm sure they're expensive and a pain in the ass to keep clean. But would people consider it an "open floor plan?" It seems so, but the rooms connecting to the kitchen also appear to have their own distinctiveness.

Absolutely, it's the really the definition of a well executed open plan. For some reason, some of the old trolls on this thread think the word means "kitchen in great room". It's really the great room that is the cause of their angst.

"Great room' is such a dopey term.

A kitchen wants its own room; cooking is noisy, dirty, and worst of all, wet.

Why is this thread dying? We can't POSSIBLY have seen all the horribleness.

R249, I completely understand if you didn’t want to do this but would you consider posting pics of your kitchen?

I would LOVE to see that.

My parents’ mid-90s kitchen renovation featured beveled oak cabinets and Corion countertops. The Corion has held up remarkably well.

^Corian

With all the love for mid century modern, I’m surprised Formica hasn’t revived the atomic patterns. I looked at their website last week and nada.

R270 you must not have looked too hard, they sell it at Lowe's and Home Depot.

Linkie Stinkie

Formica's competitor, Wilsonart, also sells it

[quote] beveled oak cabinets

Who wants to dust and clean that surface? The flatter and simpler the better.

Pretty doesn't always win the race. Never mind. I forgot where I was.

Huge mirrors for the stovetop backsplash. Always greasy and hard to clean. It was the stupidest kitchen I ever saw.

R275 in a thread full of bad ideas, that might be the worst. Who would want a mirror behind the stove? "I like seeing my face over a flame."

A glass backsplash is so much better than a mirror. I saw a beautiful opaque or frosted glass backsplash in a kitchen once and I was insanely jealous. This pic isn't quite it, but close:

For those who like the idea of glass backsplashes, here's Donna & Lyla's 1930s Vitrolite glass walled kitchen in St. Louis.

I've had a couple of friends with big Victorian piles that had had their kitchens remodelled in the 1920s-1930s with Vitolite opaque glass panels, the stuff more commonly seen in cafes, diners, and shop fronts of the period. It's a eye-catching effect, and a bit echo-y, but rather nice. One friend was a professional baker and used hers as a sort of test kitchen, but she was also a bit fanatical about kitchen cleanliness and was attracted to the kitchen for that reason. It was always as clean as a doctor's surgery (no buckets of moldy jam in her kitchen.)

It was a pain to replace damaged pieces without damaging adjacent areas, and at the time you had to buy salvaged tiles. It's reproduced in the last twenty years, so less of a problem.

The mirror thing made some sense in that I first saw it in city kitchens as a backsplash between countertop and hanging cupboards in the 1980s and it was used with under-cabinet light strips to brighten up kitchen remodels in older apartments often with just one small window. Around a stove though, there's not much that can justify that except a love of cleaning glass.

R278, ugh no, too much. Many design elements need to be applied sparingly and wall glass/tile/backsplash is one of them. I also love glass subway tiles as backsplash, but there's too much of it in this pic, for example. One wall should be the absolute max, and I would have kept it to only the rectangle over the stove.

I fucking hate backsplash except at a stove or maybe a sink, or unless the whole kitchen is or tiled. It's quite useless in most places where it's popularly used and it's just a kitschy trendy detail where the owner gets to pick out way too many favorite colors.

Yes, I forgot that I found it at Wilsonart.

French Country style kitchen with GIANT range hoods. I call it doll house design.

I love it, r282!

Jesus, fuck, that's a shit ton of apples at r282.

[quote] Jesus, fuck, that's a shit ton of apples at [R282].

Fabulous!

Omg! That is absolutely stunning!!!!!!

Love it, R282. Wow!!!!

Sucks to be poor 😟

Some of you have horrible taste (r282, r283, r286)

That’s good, though.

Imagine what a boring world it would be if everyone’s kitchen looked the same.

I can see the appeal of R282 but for me it's another example of just too much. Doll house design is a good description. If I wanted a French Country Kitchen I'd need to balance out the twee with a more subtle and modern approach.

Oh the SHADE, R285!

I like your analysis, R201.

I understand that British Victorian homes were designed so that the Master and Mistress never had to enter 'the green baize door'. These doors separated the servants' quarters from the main rooms. Green baize, similar to a billiard table cloth was tacked to the door to deaden the servants' noise.

My place was built in 1926 but the kitchen cabinets were oak crap from the 1990s, which we painted.

Later I found out a neighbor bought the original cabinets from our place, as well as from a few other places on our street. It looked ok at his place, especially the glass doors, but he hadn't done a good job of installing them. So half assed.

I'd love to have the original cabinets, I'd know how to install them. I still have some original cabinets, in a small butlers pantry.

I love little tidbits like r291 posted.

Fascinating look into the past.

My only constant fault I find are huge American refrigerators that jut out... even in expensive complete renos. Nothing else bothers me as much. One friend solved this problem in her 1900s kitchen by taking the door and frame off a deep enough pantry, stuck the fridge in there, and had the frame and door put back on. It was perfect, and it eliminated the range being next to the fridge.

Her live-in boyfriend constantly complained about having to open the door however. Rightfully so, she told him he was just lazy.

[quote] Her live-in boyfriend constantly complained about having to open the door however. Rightfully so, she told him he was just lazy.

I’m with the boyfriend. That sounds like a silly idea for me done for no other reason than aesthetics when she probably spent a small fortune on the refrigerator.

R295 Funny, but you have two very big things reversed. She's spent, and continues to spend a lot on the live in boyfriend, and it's not his home, so it isn't up to him. The fridge was amongst the lowest priced models available.

The reason to tuck the fridge in this deep closet was to AVOID paying the premium one must in the states to obtain counter-depth, or other smaller than average sizes. She purchased a simple white enamel standard big box store fridge with a single door for fridge, and a smaller freezer above.

This also allowed her to have drawers and cabinets flanking her range now, and work space, whereas the prior set up was just those two appliances next to each other...

The previous fridge was not only unsightly that it jutted out, but was a hazard to traffic patterns. No bench or worktop space near a range is a serious challenge for a cook. Let the boyfriend purchase and renovate his own house.

Did she have a separate large pantry after putting the fridge the previous one? I’m not sure I like this idea either but whatever works for her.

R297 No, but there was still a bit of room to store some food in the one: there were a few shelves, and they kept things on top of the fridge. It wasn't quite a butler's pantry, yet larger than an average closet. I had imagined an old ice chest may have been in there originally. I would describe it as Craftsman/Cottage style. Very tiny all around. That original fridge was at the end of a short wall impeding easy passage to a bathroom, and the range was in the corner.

R57, if the dishes you handwash are unsanitary, maybe you need to swallow your pride and ask someone to teach you how to do it.

Handwashed dishes should be more sanitary than those that go through a dishwasher. And they will be when you learn how to wash a dish.

Refrigerators need proper ventilation or else they can overheat. The person who enclosed one in a closet is going to regret that when the house is burning down.

R298 - I understand space limitations (I live in a tiny apartment) but a fridge behind a closed door is objectively inconvenient. Would the layout of the space made it have been possible to just remove and enlarge the doorway to create an open alcove off the kitchen containing a large (nicer looking) fridge and some other nice looking storage shelves and the like?

R300 Calm down, there's plenty of room in there, very deep, as well as a window. The kitchen was done years ago now, and everyone is alive and well. Fridge is still working.

Exactly, R301. That's the solution.

Depending on the type of construction,it's sometimes much cheaper to carve out a slight niche behind a refrigerator to all it to fit flush with the front counter edge. The alternative if buying the space specific appliance that's 2" shallower usually costs an extortionant premium.

Appliance manufacturers sell a few grades of appliance but in carapaces and trim sets that spell out loudly and clearly the level of luxury. Two identical oven/cookstops identical in function and specs, but one will have an ugly set of cheap plastic knobs.and the.other a slightly refined oven door window detail and comparatively beautiful knobs, but at nearly $1000 more for the premium grade. Same with counter depth appliances except that the uptick in price is even greater.

Why does your dog kick his ass all the time? Because he can.

There were a few reasons my friend and her Interior Designer decided not to scrap her pantry/walk-in closet altogether. The panelled door, and the doorframe were original to the home, with a beautiful walnut finish, original hardware, etc. There would have been some symmetry lost as a result, as there was a similar, yet slightly more narrow door leading out the kitchen to her back steps on the same wall to the left.

The floor in the pantry had a very dark, possibly original finish, and had some mastic like coating in spaces. The original hardwood floors were already sanded and refinished perfectly shortly before she purchased the home. I believe she was a bit reticent to also remove plaster of that period, as it may have required asbestos abatement, which is very costly in Chicago.

Then there was that strange little window, which originally was more than likely a pass through for ice block delivery. Sounds to me as if she made the best decision. The pantry was rather deep, so things such as mops, a broom, and other unsightly things would have lost a home. There were no other closets in her kitchen, and no linen closet in her adjacent loo.

We just redid our kitchen and we bought black stainless appliances with a counter-depth fridge. After 30 years of fingerprints on regular SS, I'm so happy I did this. The loss of space in the fridge is very manageable by just configuring the shelves correctly.

[quote]Fridge is still working.

And so is our relationship, which still pisses off r294.

Stainless steel appliances were one of those things that I assumed were going to be a quick fad and then disappear. I used to work in restaurants in the Eighties and early Nineties and always thought that the stainless steel appliances in restaurant kitchens were so ugly.

No idea why they’ve been so popular now for decades.

I still love this kitchen from 17 years ago. The stainless appliances and subway tiles might not be exciting but it hasn’t hasn’t aged much.

Two islands! Why did I never think of that?

I wonder if kitchen carpeting will ever come back.

R306 Why would you say that? I happen to own a home, as well as a vacation condo and my partner would never tell me how to decorate or organise either of them. He owns a property as well, and I don't feel it's my place to make demands, or change anything.

I'm also somewhat conservative insofar as the belief women ought to make the decisions for their decorating, of course unless their husband happens to be a gay man.... a loose rendition on one of Jonathan Adler's designing tenets... The boyfriend never cooks, so his POV is irrelevant logically. I think you just like to snare people into senseless arguments. If he wanted a more of a declarative role, he ought to have at least proposed, or coughed up some money for the inordinately expensive shallow fridge.

R308: There are a few clues to that design being 17 years old, but few and subtle. It's of its time but holds up very well because the designer smartly avoided all the trendy motifs and bells and whistles of the day. There are no novelty edges to the (soapstone?) countertops, no fat cigar-like columns at the corners of the cabinetry, no flourish to the stove hood, the flush-set drawers and cabinet doors are a classic and more costly to execute design, but the only flourish at all is in the turned foot of at least one island and the hardware, again, not as popular today as 17 years ago, but a classic design that's been in production for 140 years and can look old or new depending on its use. The hanging light fixtures and the design of the drop-in sink help date the design but make make the space look dated. They avoided the mistake of making things too specifically trendy so that someone who knows kitchens to date it to within a couple of years just by sight.

Not everyone will like this kitchen of course, but I think it's fair to say that it does hold up well.

I have a smaller kitchen with higher ceilings so my cabinets don't go to the ceiling. I don't know what I would have chosen had my contractor suggested it. But I have a few things stored there (large soup pot, speckled roasting pan, not cluttered so it's ok). Plus my cabinets already cost 8000 dollars of my budget and like I said it's a small kitchen. I hate clutter, busy or glass back splashes, granite and even marble counter tops, islands. Although I did have marble windowsills made out of a cocktail table. My appliances are in a triangle and they aren't all stainless matchy- matchy. I live in an old house (1910) so I wanted to make it kind of an old world look with a little bit of unusual.

R313 I share your same aesthetic concerns for smaller older homes. Not everything popular today is appropriate for these small kitchens in modest homes. My home is 1870s, and opted to keep much of the kitchen "un-fitted", and work with the forties and fifties aspect of what was there when I had purchased it. Too much marble, granite, and other trendy materials don't make much sense.

I said:

[quote] when she probably spent a small fortune on the refrigerator.

To which you replied:

[quote]The fridge was amongst the lowest priced models available.

Now you’re saying:

[quote] or coughed up some money for the [bold]inordinately expensive shallow fridge.[/bold]

WTF?

R186 what is also stupid is keeping food serving ware on open shelves.

R315 what he is saying is that by putting the cheap, ugly bigger fridge in the pantry closet hidden behind a door, the girlfriend didn’t have to spend top dollar for a beautiful, shallow fridge to fit into the renovated kitchen in plain view not in the pantry. Therefore she saved a lot of money. The boyfriend wanted a beautiful fridge not in the pantry but wasn’t paying for it so his preferences were ignored.

R317 That's about the skinny on it, thanks. There's still the practical aspect of gaining workspace, and cabinets and drawers too. This short wall had nothing but those two appliances. The range looks better in the middle of the wall, rather than in the corner. The plaster had food splatter as well. The walk-in pantry is on the opposite wall, where there are no cabinets, or bench tops. There is only a vintage sink, and a door leading out the back steps.

Are Sub-Zero refrigerators and Viking ranges still "in"? Or is the money going to Miele, Gaggenau, and other Euro brands?

This fridge would have looked nice built into the pantry if budget had allowed.

Actually that’s a pantry, here’s a fridge

I live in a mid-century. My kitchen absorbed a bedroom in 1956 so it's very large. When I bought the house it had the original builder grade (read, crappy) cabinets, which were in bad shape. I ripped those out, replastered the room and restored the terrazzo. So it was basically a giant box with a sink hookup and a gas line.

I was on a budget, so in order to afford the appliances I wanted (commercial full refrigerator, viking range), I ended up holding off on installing cabinets by buying some stainless steel racks and tables. There was a giant solid porcelain Crane wash sink in the laundry room when I bought the house, that sat on a metal legs, so I just used that as the sink. Now 2 years later I've actually grown to like having the flexibility of having everything raised off the floor and on wheels to able to move things for parties, to clean, etc. I will at some point finish the kitchen out, but for now, I don't mind it all. It's very much like a restaurant kitchen. My mother is mortified and asks me every time when I will finish it out.

My only "embarrassing" thing is the dishwasher sits next to the sink encased in painted plywood with a piece of marble on top of it. If I could figure out a way to integrate it better, I'd like that.

That actually sounds cool r322. Not for everyone, of course, but very utilitarian.

Just wondering why you want commercial appliances though. We had them in our old house (previous owners put them in), and they were expensive as hell to maintain and repair.

Islands have become too big. If you can't reach all the way across the island, it's too big. Also, if you have an eat-in kitchen with a breakfast room, get rid of the bar-counter with stools. Really not needed, and always in the way.

A kitchen I was in recently for a party, had an island which was 5 or 6 feet square. It looked like people were running a race around it. Crazy! Get rid of it, you'll be surprised how much easier and convenient the kitchen is without it.

R323. I haven't had any problems. The Viking isn't a real commercial stove, but mine is an older model that is in effect a "tamed" commercial stove that can be installed residentially but because it has no electronics, there isn't much to go wrong. When you get into the real commercial stoves, they can't be put up against anything flammable like cabinets, sheetrock, etc. And they require bigger gas hookups and hoods, which leads into make up air, etc. You can also void a homeowners policy I found out. I like the power of the gas range for stuff like wok cooking and searing steaks.

The refrigerator is a professional model, 32" wide. You can fit a whole sheet pan inside. I like the size and it's the same size as the big Subzero at like 1/10th the price.

Hate brown granite, dark wood cabinets and back splash. I do like a clean white kitchen off the garden or patio. I hate trendy. Who wants to live through a kitchen construction all the time, just go with timeless and classic. Must have my family room open to kitchen. I spend most of my time here. I loathe a separate kitchen.

I have never met anyone who eats at the "bar" with the stools in a kitchen. Unless your place is too small to have a dining room/area, why have this space and clutter it up with West Elm barstools? Is it so someone can sit and chat while someone else is cooking?

[quote]I have never met anyone who eats at the "bar" with the stools in a kitchen. Unless your place is too small to have a dining room/area, why have this space and clutter it up with West Elm barstools? Is it so someone can sit and chat while someone else is cooking?

I agree that I don't like the look of a kitchen bar with bar stools, but the utility of it is no mystery. I have a small kitchen and wouldn't like having to move a simple bar stool out of my way all the time; otherwise I would have one: for when I am cooking something and I have 20 minutes for it to be in the oven, it would be easier to stay in the kitchen with an eye on things and read the news on my phone; or when I'm home alone working by day have a light "lunch" and enjoy the view from the kitchen window; or a place to sit and talk to my husband while he cooks or vice versa. I don't like always having my meal in the dining room, any more than I like only using one room for one purpose. Other people and bigger families no doubt find similar and more uses, regardless of the "savagery" of not sitting down at a proper dining table to take every meal. If I wanted coffee and toast and (mold-free) jam for breakfast, I'd have it in the kitchen. Why not? I have drawers full of 18th and 19th Century silver and "nice things" from which to eat and good manners, even, but that doesn't make me a savage to have a yoghurt and juice at a barstool in a kitchen. Or to talk to your partner while you cook? Why not? Maybe you know a very refined sort who only dine in dining rooms or from trays brought into the bedchamber by maids, who make it a point never to be in a kitchen when someone else is cooking, or who never wants to sit down for 10 minutes while something finishes cooking.

Kitchens with islands which have bar stools are useful for those kind of people who've produced children.

That's BS, I am with r328, Its just me and my partner and he often wants to chat while I am making dinner. Stools at the counter are really good for that. Even when I have a couple friends over it's kind of the same thing until all the food comes out. It's just awkward to be sitting at a dinning table with other people when you are jumping up every couple of minutes to check on the food, or proceed to another step if you have multiple things going at the same time.

And just on a practical point, eating at a kitchen bar makes cleanup a lot less involved. I only have to clean one area not two.

Faux granite countertops made of tiles. Why bother?

It falls under the term of "classy". Usually a house occupied some some over the hill 40 something blond bimbo with saggy implants and her husband 20 years plus her age on his second wife.

Does anyone have pics of more timeless kitchens? The breakdown of what dated and what was classic about the Something’s Gotta Give kitchen was fascinating!

They are ugly, R331, but it is real granite—just cheap thin slices of it. And nothing says "I'm cutting corners and making bad decisions" much worse than this.

For the right period house with the right kitchen, I don't mind ceramic tile counters. I know everyone despises them because they are "dirty" and take more care to clean, but it's not impossible to keep them clean, it just requires a regular clean with a disinfecting spray and a periodic scrubbing to keep the grout from staining. For me it's a long time between big spills in the kitchen and keeping them clean wouldn't be a big chore. I wouldn't use it in a new build, but if I had a house from the 1920s-1940s where it made sense, I might consider it.

Tile from the 40's can stay, tile from the 70's and 80's need to go.

R320 Those are certainly lovely for new design/construction or for a reno in a grander newer home with unlimited space. I think many live so large in suburbs on DL, they aren't familiar with pre-1920s Craftsmen Cottages, or other small two-bedroom city homes. Big budgets or unlimited ones do not necessarily solve problem spaces on their own.

Playing your fantasy game, I don't see how this walk-in pantry or closet could be sorted out as those pics shown; overall depth is probably 4-5', possibly even 6'. That would create an odd hall effect IMHO, akin to an old buttery or root cellar. There would still be the lack of hiding space.

I think the best case forward in intact historic homes is to do as little as possible, and to work with the original space, floorplan, and historic fabric. Not respecting the bones is why most nice old homes are often molested, and have seriously incongruous kitchens and baths.

I hate that every renovation now includes Wolf stoves and such even though no one is cooking

R336 Much of what is popular in American kitchen design seems excessive, moneywise or too large. That's the other aspect of the giant fridges. Perfect for large families who don't shop regularly, but for childless couples or singles, they seem "too much". I feel the same about five and six burner ranges, regardless of make.

Thanks R335, those are interesting points

R335 - you, and your friend with the craftsman bungalow and the fridge behind the original walnut door, are purists -- and there's noting wrong with that; too many beautiful old homes have been really destroyed by renovation that just guts all the original charm. But those are the two extremes, it is entirely possible to tastefully and intelligently reconfigure spaces in old homes to suit more modern sensibilities, levels of comfort, and space use yet still respect period detail and an overall feel appropriate to the age of the house - doors and woodwork can be removed and reused, with some new matching trim to fill the gaps, etc. -- you just need some sense and some taste.

[quote]I hate that every renovation now includes Wolf stoves and such even though no one is cooking.

The same people you don't dislike so much that you fear for their lives when you see them chopping peppers for a "welcome to our new home (our realtor and other people we don't really know)" party in the closing shots of most HGTV House Hunters episodes.

These aren't necessarily design elements in the purist sense, but my general kitchen dislikes:

1) Hanging skillet and pot racks - can you store these please? It's trying to make it look like a commercial kitchen as if you're cooking multiple meals a day for several hundred people. You're not. And it's not a decoration - it's just messy. I understand that sometimes small apts just don't have the room, so that gets a pass - as with any space-challenged city kitchen.

2) Side-by-side refrigerators. Impractical - there's never enough width space.

3) Multiple glass front cabinets - I don't need to see your daily dishes or cereals or whatever. Same goes for open shelves - one is fine, but to have all of your plates and bowls on open shelves rarely looks good. Again, it's not a style element.

4) All white kitchens - 95% of the time it just says - no style. You need to have some contrast.

5) Drawer microwaves - I HATE crouching down to use an appliance, particularly when you're tall. I don't know why this is a thing.

6) Appliances all over the counter top. Put them AWAY! Coffee maker is fine - but that's pretty much it. Why is the mixer out? Blender? Toaster? And those huge fucking rice makers? Bread makers? George Foreman grills?

Otherwise I'm pretty forgiving.

[quote] And those huge fucking rice makers?

Asian families never stow the rice cooker.

R361 I agree with everything you wrote. Can we be besties?

R362 so the whole family hides?

It will be interesting to see what R361 and R362 post and if R343 and R344 comment's hold up.

I had to google what a pot filler is. LOL. I guess I shouldn't be on this thread.

R346 but what do you think of them?

A random plumbing fixture over a stove - what could go wrong?

The toaster should be out on the counter.

These appliance garages are kind of nice to hide them instead of the roller ones

We have so many specialty small appliances which we use infrequently. I'd love to create an appliance closet in the kitchen so they are more convenient than going down to the basement, where we currently keep them.

[quote]But those are the two extremes, it is entirely possible to tastefully and intelligently reconfigure spaces in old homes to suit more modern sensibilities

I can just imagine my grandmother, if she ever heard of someone trying to "preserve" or "respect" her wonderful little house:

"Oh my god, just tear that shit out! We would have done it if we'd had the damn money!"

Those racks for plates. It's a kitchen, not an armory.

I hate this trend of OPEN CONCEPT remodels when they remove walls and too many cabinets.. This weekend I went to look at a house with a friend who is in the market for a new home. It was a really nice remodel, except they had removed half the kitchen to "open it up" to the dining room. The oven was on a little half wall by itself with no counter space on either side, and it was practically IN the dining room.

OMG a friend just posted this on her social media --- apparently they opened up a wall between the living room and kitchen. It's awful. Not that it was great to begin with -- BEIGE BEIGE BEIGE -- but why put the sofa against the passthru like that?

The link shows before and after.

BTW she's a straight frau.

Wow - the only thing worse than that shitty, too small, incorrectly hung print over the couch is the new view into her depressing kitchen.

It may be the worst "open concept" I've ever seen. And she can't even see the kids if they're on the couch.

My parents' house was built (late 80s) with that half wall between kitchen and living room. It's fine, but if you have 2 good size distinct rooms I just don't see the point of the change. Especially when you leave everything else so depressingly bland. The only advantage is you can watch TV while cooking. OK, but you could have put a TV in the kitchen. Or cut out a small window between rooms. That's what I did in my co-op, but I have a tiny kitchen and the small window above the sink really did help open up the space and watching TV while washing dishes is a nice bonus.

Also, I might be wrong, but it looks like they lost space for the fridge with the cut out and so it was moved to the other side of the kitchen and opening it now blocks the archway between rooms. That's just a terrible layout.

The whole "open floor plan" thing where sometimes the whole 1st floor of the house is one giant room where you walk in the front door and the kitchen with it's GIANT island is there across the room. Some mommies rationalize it by their adamant stance that they MUST be able to see their offspring while they're cooking. Bitch please. When I was a child we got asked to LEAVE the kitchen while the cooking was happening and go find something to do. Sometimes that meant playing in the livingroom or family room, or playing in our rooms, or going outside. Yes, we were allowed to exit the safety of the house to go outside into the yard WITHOUT "line of sight" from the kitchen. Imagine the HORROR if that were to occur today. I don't understand this whole mentality.

R360 - I believe they're talking about kids under 6 or 7, but I agree with you in general. Our parents certainly did not have us in their line of sight unless we were standing right in front of them.

If something happened, they heard it from the screaming that ensued. You're not going to prevent too many accidents.

Re: kitchen sink under window. Gives a view other than a wall and allows Mom to keep an eye on things outside.

Kitchen islands are good for entertaining. Every time I have Thanksgiving at my house everyone ends up in the kitchen. Some of the guys might be out watching the game but the kitchen is where it's at. I put cheese and fruit out and everyone sits or stands with their drinks visiting while I cook.

I live in a small-ish but well laid out condo. The kitchen has Miele appliances. The oven is the 24" size (not untypical for a small condo/apartment kitchen). As a reference, a "full size" oven is 30". One of my siblings was visiting and was astounded at the "tiny" oven. How could I possibly "cook a turkey" in that tiny thing? LOL. I have never in my life cooked a whole turkey and don't plan to. But even if I wanted to, * it would fit *.

R341 I agree with most of your peeves, except the pot racks, as many don't have a choice in small kitchens. I keep most of mine right above my range on the wall, and all my knives as well.

My mum's kitchen would drive you mad...Largest ever Cuisinart, Kitchen-Aid Stand Mixer, Kitchen-Aid gigantic convection toaster oven, Aicok electric kettle, Zojirushi bread maker, Dualit regular toaster, Keurig Coffee machine, DeLonghi Espresso machine, and the Vitamix. They're all out all the time. She's says they're too heavy to put away, and at her age (with arthritis) why bother, she asks.

[quote] with it's GIANT island

Oh, dear!

R365, I agree with Mom.

She needs to live as comfortably as she wants, in spite of everyone else’s opinions.

I could never be comfortable around cluttered countertops.

R368 They don't disturb me psychologically or anything, I just don't care for the look. In her defence, they're neatly "lined up", and her kitchen is enormous. I like clean surfaces, I suspect her house cleaner has a bitch of a time with them. I fail to see the need for a standard toaster and the gigantic toaster-convection thing.

When I suggested she move the espresso machine, as it isn't used often, she asked "What would I put there then?" I think there are two camps, one believes empty space must be filled, and the other feels space needn't be "filled". I get that she's getting fragile; she'll be eighty soon. I'm impressed she still makes all her own bread and pastries. Her age hasn't slowed her down a bit in the way of cooking or entertaining.

[quote]Her age hasn't slowed her down a bit in the way of cooking or entertaining.

Mmmmmmm.

I love your mom.

Not just for kitchens exactly (although I've seen this in kitchens, too) is this trend to put TVs on the fucking walls! I know in some cases it's appropriate, but almost every house I look at online has an awkwardly placed TV on the wall (some with wires hanging down) or tacked up over the fireplace. With so much "open concept" these days I get that there isn't much wall space in some houses, and it can look nice in the right setting, but most of the time it just looks stupid.

If you have your TV mounted on the wall, I'm sure it looks great and perfect, so no need to tell me about it.

"If you have your TV mounted on the wall, I'm sure it looks great and perfect, so no need to tell me about it."

LOL. Unless you can run the wires through the wall or otherwise hide them, do not mount your TV.

R372 ugh don't get me started on big ass TVs. My husband insisted we get one, but I refused to mount it on the wall, precisely because of the damn visible wires hanging.

But I still hate it.

I do love my big TV, but I find it hilarious when people try to mimic those "media rooms" or create those stupid "mancaves" with a giant TV and oversized couches/lazyboys in rooms that are just too small.

Televisions should never be placed/hung/mounted such that the viewer must extend his neck vertebrae upwards. Not joking.

When the microwave is not large enough to fit the crying baby.

the credenza in r373 is lovely

subway tiles that have their own pets

If not a solution, there is an improvement to having visible wires from a wall-mounted TV.

These cable raceways, of course, are ugly, but painted to match the adjacent wall they are less fucking ugly than a tangle of wires. Wood moldings and split lengths of pipe and other materials can serve the same purpose; it's not beautiful but at least with some little care it doesn't look like a drunk installed your TV.

Better, if you have wallboard, hire an electrician to snake the cables through the wall and put access small panels/connections out of sight. Money well spent.

[quote]Appliances all over the counter top. Put them AWAY! Coffee maker is fine - but that's pretty much it. Why is the mixer out? Blender? Toaster?

Because some people actually use them. The average kitchen does not have that much storage space for appliances. Besides, for people who cook, the best advice I ever got was don't hide your appliances like a mixer in some deep cabinet. You will quickly grow tired of hauling it out every time you want to use it and stop cooking a lot of things just because it's too much of a chore to dig it out.

Freestanding ranges are just tacky. I don't get why people still buy these. They get dated really fast. The knobs or buttons are in the back so you have to reach over hot pans to put that fire out. They make slide-ins if remolding is not an option. much more low profile and obtrusive too.

R380: I'm mostly with R341. If there is something every day or nearly so, fine. If not, put it away out of sight in distance relative to its frequency of use. The gelato maker? Can probably go the the dark reaches of the pantry or closet, next to the blender, the juicer, the bread maker, the air fryer, the Kitchen-Aid mixer, etc.

The coffee grinder, the electric can opener (for the 37 cats and your arthritic hands), and other things that are ugly but used often enough, put them in your pantry or closet, or handy inside a cupboard. Take an extra fucking step or two, you won't die. Americans mistake having "the right tools" for a task to having mastered the task. Having spent too much on the appliance they keep it in plain sight as a reminder not to use it. Your kitchens are brimming with useless shit.

This is the [bold]AFTER[/bold] photo from someone's Look At Me, I Decluttered My Kitchen! blog, the owner was quite pleased with herself for having decluttered her countertop appliances the better to so artfully display the things she didn't banish.

wow that is a commitment to coffee - four devices!

R102 My cobroker and I toured a home that had a similar set up - the energy in the home was so negative, we both had to get out of there after just a few minutes. It wasn’t just the staircase being in a strange position and too close to the door, it was a combination of several odd layout choices. It was if the good energy was completely blocked from entering the house. After that, I started believing in feng shui.

I can haz kitchen?

[quote]I'm wondering... in countries that have adopted the American norm of built-in cabinets in standard sizes, but are "100%" metric (like Australia), how do you decide how much width to leave for the range and overhead microwave oven? In the US, they're nominally 30 inches, and kitchen cabinets are generally sized as multiples of 3 inches. But I know that 30 inches comes out to 76.2cm, and I'm assuming that in "metric" countries, cabinets probably run in standard sizes that are whole multiples of 5 or 6 centimeters.

R106: In Europe it's the same principle of a set of standard dimensions and variations, only based on metric units, not converted from feet/inches: for cabinetry and for appliances. Widths of cabinet units are typically 30/40/50/60/80cm (heights 45/70/140/200cm). My dishwasher is 45cm wide, typical of smaller kitchens; the big version is 60cm wide; that's it, those are the two off the shelf standard sizes. Cabinet manufacturers use the same filler pieces to complete a run of cabinets without a gap at the end. Any contractor or kitchen designer or appliance salesperson knows the standard dimensions. Generally speaking there are fewer variations in, say, the width, depth, and height of a refrigerator, though of course (big ass) "Americano" and retro models and you can find or special order "odd" sizes of anything you would want. Moveable kitchen furniture as in Germany follows the same modules; it's just designed to be portable rather than permanently mounted.

All the same, just different sizes.

Yes, R380! Exactly my problem!

Unfortunately for me I have no counter space for my mixer and food processor so away from the kitchen they go.

🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

And this all leads me to repeat: I keep my Cuisinart, mini-chopper, and blender in a "garage." On the counter but out of sight. My never-will-be-used (hey, I didn't plan on being a widow!) Hot Pink Kitchenaid mixer is in a lower cabinet. Toaster is in the pantry closet with the slow-cooker.

No appliances in view.

And my slide-in stove's knobs are on one side, not at the back.

[quote]stove's knobs are on one side, not at the back.

Ooh, when I was 6 I thought that was the HEIGHT of sophisticated living.

I'll take the mixer off your hands.

I keep my bird of paradise kitchenaid stand mixer on the counter because it's pretty, I paid a lot for it and I am still pretty proud to own it and I use it at least once a week. I am pretty trashy though.

386 - Everything comes in 30cm (12 inch) blocks. So standard cabinets are 60cm deep and 90cm high, drawers are 30, 40, 45, 60cm wide; fridges, stoves and dishwashers are 60cm wide as standard etc, I just did a kitchen reno and went with custom built cabinets as my space is pretty small (7x8ft) so two sides of the U are standard 60cm depth, to accomodate a stove, sink and slimline dishwasher while the third side is 50cm deep.

I like my little breakfast room it's only about10x10 but it has a bay window and cute corner cabinets in all 4 corners. It's such a cute little room I've used it for small dinner parties.

Here's the kitchen in my old house in Brooklyn. It was small, but I really loved it. Lots of storage and a great island for both prep and serving. The house is from 1865 so the look was consistent with the rest of the house. My new home/kitchen has 5 times the space, but seems cold and less accesible.

That's a great kitchen R394. LOVE it when the cabinets go all the way to the ceiling like that.

I love this kitchen too. Except the black appliances. We do with want we have, until it is time to replace them.

Lol that's not small R394 that's a standard sized kitchen. If you have a family of ten it might be cramped but it's unlikely you do.

It's amazing how home sizes have practically doubled in the US while family sizes have halved. My kitchen is probably half the width and a little less in length of the one in 394 and is considered a small kitchen.... And I could still cook for four people in it easily.

[quote] It's amazing how home sizes have practically doubled in the US while family sizes have halved.

Agree.

It seems like every frau wants each kid to have their own bedroom AND their own bathroom.

“Oh, this house only has 3 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms? Well, that’s no good. We already have 2 kids. What if we have more?”

[quote]It seems like every frau wants each kid to have their own bedroom AND their own bathroom.

Fraus, R398? How about Data Loungers? They dismiss solidly 8-figure co-op and condo duplex penthouses with terraces and spectacular views of Central Park because one of the six bedrooms doesn't have a private bathroom. Or a house that they would find "perfect, but for" having to walk through a kitchen hallway on the ground floor for w/c's to serve the entertaining rooms. And Sweet Jesus, don't ever propose that someone could walk through a bedroom to use a toilet, even in a tiny one-bedroom in a very expensive market.

I sometimes design the interior of houses for clients that are completely gutting a house. The first thing you need to get through is the endless links of "inspirational" photos that the client has. Sometimes they vary wildly from a Montecito mansion to a small English country garden kitchen to a Fuck You Contemporary. Pinning this down is an epic feat. Then the open vs. closed. I am a closed. Then the kitchen cabinet guy that has to completely fuck up what you have done when he shows those crappy Sketchup fly throughs with the inventory that he is trying to move. More than half the battle is getting through this.

The end result is getting invited to the housewarming party and having the clients thank you for demanding two dishwashers, a plate washer, a butler's pantry, no subway tile, a pot filler, two refrigerators, three sinks, and placement of all these in places that the kitchen cabinet guy said would be a terrible choice.

[quote] the clients thank you for demanding two dishwashers, a plate washer, a butler's pantry, no subway tile, a pot filler, two refrigerators, three sinks,

WTF?

No one needs that R400 unless they have an army of servants. Americans are just greedy.

It all stems from people watching too much HGTV. Remember 10 years ago when every frau on the show summarily rejected any house that did not have granite counters and dark wood cabinets. Flash forward to today, and there are shows about gutting those "horrible, dated!!" kitchens to install white cabinets and white quartz countertops and farmhouse sinks and horribly busy cement tile backsplashes. I wonder what comes next.....

Well, certainly not you NOT watching HGTV apparently.

Was there a point to that nasty little comment R404? Oh yeah, it's called being a troll. Bye.

Quartzite countertops seem to be more versatile than granite, but do you all see them becoming dated anytime soon?

Everything gets dated R406 - if it’s your house do what you feel is functional and in a style you like and then enjoy it for 20odd years without worrying if it’s “in style” or not.

Personally I’ve always liked color - never liked the white cabinet trend and wouldn’t have considered it. I do love the blue kitchen cabinets that are everywhere right now and know I’d still be happy with them in 10 years even though they will scream “2019.” Know what pleases you and go for it - it’s your life and your kitchen.

Thank you R407! I'm curious now though, what style of blue cabinets are you talking about?

R408 - Here's an article with a number of different shades. I prefer modern slab fronts in darker or deep but bright blues, I also like the "marine" shade that has a some green in it -- blue works well on either modern or traditional style cabinets (if you like blue). Currently it is usually paired with brass hardware as brass is also trendy right now, and it looks good; but I personally dislike brass and would still use some kind of a matte silver hardware, or matte black -- which again is super trendy and will likely date soon but I love the look -- I'm changing all the hardware in my bathroom to matte black without re-doing anything else. Ikea even sells a glossy blue-black kitchen door that I really like the look of - just google around a bit, it's literally everywhere right now.

Blue is a ghastly just ghastly color choice for a kitchen

Thank you again R409. I haven't seen this style before, and while I can't say I'm completely digging the blue, it makes me think of what other colors, stone, and metal combinations might work.

Blue is supposed to suppress the appetite, so not a good one for kitchens.

R410 -- Then don't get a blue kitchen Gloria Upson.

R412 -- But what if you're a fatty?

Wish I'd seen this thread a couple months ago, might have learned something.

We're a week or two away from finishing a complete kitchen remodel. An old (130 years) craftman that we've spent many years "returning" to craftsman. The kitchen had open shelving and mid-century tiles over multiple counters and backsplashes. Tore everything out - custom shakerish cabinetry that I'm reserving judgement on (for the price, doesn't seem that much better than a lot of "Ikea" installations that I've seen at friends for much less $).

Ceramic "retro" tiles from this source (pic below) and soapstone counters, like the pic. (Granite and quartz just seemed like wall-to-wall carpeting to me, no way it fits in our house). Didn't want it to be too busy, so chose a warm white cabinet and walls. Wanted the tiles to be the "star" - not compete with colors. But am concerned the white/black of counter and walls will get a little old. In any case, wanted to share the tiles - like this we've got tiles of multiple sizes. Our kitchen doesn't have the copper hood or hanging lights...

Lighten up, r405!

Did you not see the sign when you entered? It clearly says “pointless bitchery.”

Jeez.

[quote]The end result is getting invited to the housewarming party and having the clients thank you for demanding two dishwashers, a plate washer, a butler's pantry, no subway tile, a pot filler, two refrigerators, three sinks, and placement of all these in places that the kitchen cabinet guy said would be a terrible choice.

Exhausting. "I ALWAYS put ONE pot filler and ONE plate washer in all MY kitchens, and—this is the important part—TWO refrigerators, TWO dishwashers, and THREE SINKS in ALL MY kitchens. You can thank me later."

Better, give the bossy bitch the boot before he gets out his pencil, this designer who deigns to charge too much to shove down the throats of his every client the same formulaic design, his *signature* kitchen.

Sounds/looks appropriately Craftsmany r414. Thanks or sharing. And good luck in the home stretch.

That tile is beautiful, R414.

The color is amazing.

How about this kitchen renovation?

A walk-around stove, accessible from all sides, R419! The gas and electrical lines must come up from the floor into the middle of the room? Very strange.

Now that's hilarious.

It really the potted herbs on the table that gives that free-range range its extra touch of class.

Here's the house with that kitchen. The house isn't bad. But that kitchen...

I'm fucking so tired of gray. Kitchens should be bright and colourful, fuck you if you disagree.

R424 I painted my whole house yellow because I wanted to do something different and cheerful. I hate it but don't feel like dealing with it.

R419 looks like the kitchen in the basement of a Lutheran church in Garrison Keillor land.

How did the kitchen turn out, r414?

Unreal. If you look at the 3rd pic in the thread, you'll see where the fridge should be.

I had no idea about bad kitchen design until this thread. And now I constantly notice the stove right next to the refrigerator. It ruins the whole entire house for me. It's a shanda

I've always hated the cooktop on the island.

I'm kinda fascinated by this thread as I did a kitchen reno last year. My original kitchen was 6x8ft, one wall of benches only 1ft wide, about 18 inches of usable prep space, one awkwardly placed set of drawers and the fridge in the dining area. It took about a year of pouring over the Ikea kitchen planner to turn it into a workable space. By the end I couldn't have cared less what it looked like, I just wanted a workable kitchen with bench space, a garbage bin space, adequate storage, drawers I could open and a dishwasher.

It took a lot of tweaking the design and taking out the wall between the kitchen and dining space but I've finally got a decent kitchen. It's not going to win any awards but it's a nice practical small kitchen/dining space.

Electric stoves. When I turn that knob, I want to see a fuckin’ flame!

For me, an example of a very good kitchen design, a new kitchen wing added to an historic house in London by architect Ben Pentreath. The space is beautiful and luxurious, but the kitchen itself, while not inexpensive, is simple and classic. The core of it looks on whole as though it might be a kitchen from 2020, or one from 1820 or 1920 with a few modern appliances and technology added. Given the architecture, there's no need to make a bold statement with every drawer pull and mosaic backsplash and quartz countertop.

Obviously the kitchen equivalent of an Oxford cloth white button down men's shirt isn't for everybody, but it illustrates ways to design a kitchen that the owners might not want to rip out and bury their mistakes of trendiness every five years.

I don't know if I would like a big stationary island blocking my movement.

I do know I would like clever cabinet and drawer arrangements; a microwave oven not above my head; definitely a double s. s. sink like I have; better floor tiling with much less grouting; a built-in bookcase; the bay window transformed to French doors to my deck; and additional cabinetry for appliances like a Kitche-Aide mixer at the wall separating my kitchen from my family room (I could have built with the original "great room" design, but that is not my style. To each room its function.).

I do love the sleekness of a modern Italian design.

I'm not organized enough for open shelves in a kitchen. If you're an Austrian hausfrau with a perfect service for four that fits perfectly on the shelf next to a set of Lalique vases, fine. But I'm more Mediterranean and disorganized so the shelves would look like a mad scientist's chemistry lab after two weeks.

Beveled granite/quartz counter and island tops. Dates the whole kitchen. Keep those edges straight! A little rounding at the corners is fine but the straighter the better!

Bathroom opens into kitchen

It’s the McDLT of kitchen design.

This house I recently saw with a FAST FOOD dining booth really caught my eye in horror. I'm guessing they either: • didn't like shopping for dining room furniture • liked eating in 80s fast-food restaurants but hated crowds • were complete pigs and needed something durable and easily cleanable. Add the fake moss and you've got the 90s frau disaster.

I have a rock crystal chandelier in my kitchen but its deelectrified and takes candles. I have a hook in one of my showers and its very easy to swap it with soapy water and then hose it down, and its sparkling again. It's very cosy for parties and kitchen served dinners. I have all kinds of other lighting in the space.

A bathroom that opens into the kitchen is a lesser evil than a half-bath that opens into the dining room...