Hello and thank you for being a DL contributor. We are changing the login scheme for contributors for simpler login and to better support using multiple devices. Please click here to update your account with a username and password.

Hello. Some features on this site require registration. Please click here to register for free.

Hello and thank you for registering. Please complete the process by verifying your email address. If you can't find the email you can resend it here.

Hello. Some features on this site require a subscription. Please click here to get full access and no ads for $1.99 or less per month.

The detransitioners: what happens when trans men want to be women again?

The detransitioners: what happens when trans men want to be women again?

Laura Dodsworth meets the individuals whose stories are rarely told

Sunday July 12 2020, 12.01am BST, The Sunday Times

When I told people I was going to create a photographic series about trans men who wanted to “detransition” and become women again, I was told to expect a backlash. Actually, I was told I would be crucified — look at what happened to JK Rowling recently. At the very least I’d better take a holiday from Twitter. One person told me I should not be focusing on detransitioners when trans people are still struggling for acceptance. But this would be to silence key voices when we should be having an inclusive and nuanced discussion about gender identity, especially at a time when the government is deciding how, or whether, it will reform the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

I know trans people for whom social and medical transition has been the best outcome. For many people it can be a positive experience. I fully appreciate that. But it doesn’t work out for everyone, and it is not sustainable, or fair, to silence one community to serve another.

The women in my project, who are from the UK and other European countries, have all encountered anger, disbelief and trolling online. Detransition — when someone ceases to identify as transgender and may take steps to reverse their social or medical transition — is a controversial concept.

It adds to concerns that children and young people may begin the process of transitioning yet later regret it. In April, the government announced plans to ban under-18s from having gender reassignment surgery. Currently under-18s are allowed surgery only with parental consent.

There has been a surge of children, particularly girls, identifying as trans in recent years. In England, 74% of children and young people referred to the Tavistock Gender Identity Clinic are girls. Why this increase among girls? The reason is not yet clear, but Penny Mordaunt, when she was minister for women and equalities, promised an inquiry.

This is one reason why I felt drawn to document female detransitioners. I wanted to understand and depict their circular and painful gender journey. For me, the idea of having my breasts, ovaries and womb removed, and then wanting them back, creates a feeling so unnerving that I can’t occupy it for long — that’s why my artistic lens focused on women.

I’m not shy of the taboo. I spent five years photographing and interviewing men and women about their breasts, penises and vulvas for my books Bare Reality, Manhood and Womanhood and the film 100 Vaginas. I’ve documented the realities of our bodies and interviewed my subjects extensively about the relationship between sex and gender.

In 2018 the Government Equalities Office estimated there were anything from 200,000 to 500,000 trans people in the UK. It is not known how many of those have surgically transitioned. In 2014 there were 172 sex reassignment operations performed on the NHS — double the 83 of a decade earlier. The figures do not take private surgeries into account. There are no accurate figures for the number of people detransitioning. Most of the detransitioners I spoke to never went back to the doctor who performed their original transition, and to all intents and purposes may be considered a success story by their therapist or medical team. Charlie Evans, who set up the Detransition Advocacy Network in the UK, says she has been contacted by hundreds of detransitioners. I spoke to various people with experience in the field — doctors, therapists, nurses, endocrinologists — and while no one wanted to be quoted, off the record they predict this is merely the beginning.

I fear that the detransitioned women I interviewed are canaries in the coalmine. Not only for detransitioners, but for womanhood. They all, in some combination, found being a woman too difficult, too dangerous or too disgusting. “I put the problem inside myself,” says one, “when actually it is with how the outside world sees women who don’t conform to feminine norms.”

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 134July 12, 2020 9:05 PM

Part 2

These interviews, and my wider research, have uncovered common themes of girls who felt they didn’t fit typical feminine stereotypes, and felt uncomfortable in today’s hypersexualised culture. High rates of sexual abuse, harassment, autism, self-harm, personal rejection of being lesbian and homophobia all play a part. Feminism has made life better for women, but is it any easier to be in possession of a female body? Cosmetic surgery continues to grow in popularity as women chase the feminine ideal — females underwent 92% of all procedures recorded by the British Association of Aesthetic Plastic Surgeons in 2018, and breast enlargement remains the most popular. But at the other end of the scale, globally, there are thousands of “gofundmes” for “top surgery” — female-to-male double mastectomies. I wonder how many might come to regret their surgery?

If you read the stories on the Detrans subreddit online forum, detransition has been a difficult experience for many. How should this be addressed? The women I spoke to said they were all accepted as trans fairly unquestioningly by therapists and doctors. Should the assessment be more thorough and investigative? Does the current “affirmative” treatment model allow the “wrong people” to transition — people for whom simply being a girl, a woman, a lesbian, could have been an acceptable and happy experience?

Detransitioners have chosen the salamander as their mascot because of its ability to regenerate organs and limbs. It’s a positive symbol. Though women who fully surgically transitioned will never be able to regenerate or replace their missing organs (see panel), it’s not too much to hope that they can feel emotionally and psychologically complete.

“I want to work on accepting my body exactly the way it is now,” Ellie, pictured on the cover of this magazine, told me. “This is what should have been encouraged from the beginning.”

Sinead, 29

People on Twitter have told me I’m not genuinely trans, that I’m transphobic, or that I am a sock account. There are people who refuse to accept there are a growing number of detransitioners. Some think that just our existence hurts trans people. On the other hand I have found it hard to hear some feminists refer to detransitioned women as mutilated, or say trans women are grotesque, because I have trans friends.

I wanted to be a boy when I was younger. From 15 it intensified. I googled “I’m a woman but I wish I was a man” and through the power of the internet I found out about [gender] dysphoria and transition.

I had an extreme envy of men and an extreme resentment of myself. I just thought men were better. In a way I had my own strange kind of sexism.

A few painful and difficult things have happened to me that I think were behind me wanting to be a man and not be a woman. I know I was not in the wrong, but they are things I can’t talk about publicly. What I know now is that transitioning wasn’t the way to deal with those things. You go to the gender clinic and within a couple of months you’re on testosterone. The psychiatrist said I was trans. I thought if they prescribed me testosterone then I must be trans. Aside from general questions, no one explored if there were other issues or challenged me.

I’ve tried to talk about background issues with therapists, but gender dysphoria was seen as the cause of my problems and not a symptom of them. Actually I think my gender issues came out of mental health issues, not the other way around.

I felt better when I went out as “Sean”, especially when the testosterone kicked in and my fat redistributed and my voice got deeper. Men stopped looking at me. I thought transitioning was the best thing I had ever done. I was so happy.

by Anonymousreply 1July 12, 2020 4:07 PM

Part 3

The fact is, though, I’ve never drunk as much as when I was Sean. I still hated that I was female. I was still depressed. I still had to drink myself blind to forget. Going to the pub as Sean wasn’t enough to counter that, and I had a breakdown. After that I knew I had to deal with the problems. I realised that I wasn’t trans, and I should never have gone down the medical route.

When I first detransitioned it was hard to accept that I wasn’t a trans man or a “normal” woman either. These days I’m completely apathetic about the results of the testosterone and the mastectomy scars. I don’t like them, I don’t hate them. And that’s progress.

But I still have those dark nights when I sit alone in a room and I think I’m ruined, disfigured and damaged, and I’m not even 30 yet. And then I get better nights when I think it could be worse. I could have got a phalloplasty. I don’t want to be insensitive to other detransitioned women who did get a phalloplasty, but I’m glad I didn’t get one.

I don’t like shaving — I didn’t shave when I was Sean — but if I go to the shops now I shave my face and if I’m wearing a V-neck top I shave my chest. I always wear a hat so people can’t see my baldie bit. I’d like to work towards more confidence. Dating is off the table for me, at least for now. I feel like I would have to tell someone about my trans past and that I have been masculinised.

I’m in group chats with other detransitioners. I know about 100 detransitioned women myself. But we all know others who aren’t active online or in group chats. The official numbers of detransitioners aren’t collected, they aren’t known at the moment. But I think we are the tip of the iceberg. There will be many of us to come.

I wish the psychiatrist at the gender identity clinic [in the UK] had given me a better assessment. Part of me wants to go back to the clinic to look my psychiatrist in the face again, but I know that’s driven by anger. I don’t think they can help me, so there is no point in going back.

I want detransitioners to know they are not alone and they can come forward and find other people to talk to. I hope when people see these stories and photographs, they will see that even though we have been changed by testosterone and surgery we are still strong and beautiful, just in a less stereotypical way. We are still women.

Ellie, 21

I came out as lesbian to my family in Belgium when I was 15. They were OK with it and I felt quite comfortable dating girls. At some point, though, I started to question myself a lot. I couldn’t picture myself growing up to be a woman. I found a trans organisation in Europe offering psychological appointments, and so I went and told them what was going on in my head. I was surprised by their advice; they only told me about masculinising treatments and surgeries. I think it was a completely different answer to the one I was really looking for, so I came out very confused, but they had planted a seed.

I started watching popular videos on YouTube about girls becoming good-looking boys. I began to think that my body would look better if I took testosterone. I set myself a goal of looking male. And that quickly went from being a goal to feeling like a need. By the time I was 16 I had strong [gender] dysphoria. I decided to tell my parents because at that age I couldn’t access treatment without them. To start with they were very supportive, but the next day it was a different story. They both said they accepted me the way I was, and I could present myself any way I wanted, but they would have concerns about my health if I took hormones. My mother told me she was worried I would regret it. I thought she was transphobic.

My parents took me to see a psychologist, who told us that I was not trans, otherwise I would have known from the age of about three. He said I should wait till I was 18. I was upset that he discredited me in front of my parents.

by Anonymousreply 2July 12, 2020 4:08 PM

Part 4

I convinced my parents to come with me to the trans organisation I had first been to. The doctor they referred us to was completely different. He said why wait till 18, when I would have better results if I started taking testosterone straight away? He said that the effects of taking testosterone were reversible and there was nothing to worry about, which shocked me because I knew this wasn’t always true. [Some of the effects from taking testosterone may not be reversible, depending on how long the hormone is taken.] But I knew this was what my parents needed to hear to agree, so I didn’t say anything.

I didn’t foresee the emotional changes of testosterone. It felt like I became numb. I used to cry a lot as a way to relieve my emotions, but I cried only twice in four years on testosterone. I liked the physical changes. I am tall and have always had quite a masculine body, but once I started on testosterone people always read me as male.

I started using the boys’ changing rooms at school and changed to the boys’ sports teams. My next goal became a mastectomy because it made me very uncomfortable to be a boy with breasts.

I used to play basketball competitively and would train every day. That stopped as soon as I started on testosterone because it would have been considered doping. I hadn’t changed my gender, so officially I couldn’t play with boys either. When I moved to Germany to go to university nobody knew I was trans, people just assumed I was male. I was very quiet about that. And I started playing basketball again, in a male team. Everyone on the team thought I was a guy, but I felt completely out of place. Realising I didn’t really belong in male spaces is part of what drove me to detransition. Playing sport in a male team made it clear that I just don’t have the same socialisation as the men. Women are competitive, but not in the same way as men. It slowly stopped making sense being a guy.

I started reading more about feminism and understanding things differently. It’s hard to grow up and not really see other masculine lesbian women. I had put the problem inside myself, when actually it is with how the outside world sees women who don’t conform to feminine norms. I just wanted to be human, neutral, myself. I felt as if the only way I could be myself was to look like a guy. Transition was not the ideal solution, but it did help me. Some detransitioned people want reversal surgery. I’ve realised that the way forward for me is to accept myself as I am now. I will always have an Adam’s apple, and my hands and wrists are probably broader than they would have been because I started on testosterone when I was still growing. I struggle most with my deep voice and my beard. I will always have a beard now.

It’s hard that I don’t feel like I belong in female spaces any more. I don’t want to make women feel uncomfortable and be questioned. I use the men’s changing rooms, but I don’t feel comfortable in there either. It sucks.

My transition was not necessary, but I don’t want to be regretful. I want to work on accepting my body exactly the way it is now. This is what should have been encouraged from the beginning.

Lucy, 23

I couldn’t relate to very feminine, heterosexual women when I was growing up in Germany. My mum is a housewife and a mother, and I value that, but I just couldn’t imagine myself living that way. My dad is into sport, and I related to him more. I knew only one slightly more masculine woman who had short hair when I was growing up. Since detransitioning I have met many more gender non-conforming women similar to me. I often think if I’d had people like that in my life when I was a teenager, I don’t think I would have been trans.

by Anonymousreply 3July 12, 2020 4:09 PM

Part 5

Anorexia made it easy for me to fall into developing [gender] dysphoria and wanting to transition because I had already spent so much time focusing on my body and wanting to change it with dieting and starving. From 15 to 17 it was really bad. When my weight went down to 39kg [just over six stone] my parents basically forced me into treatment. I was in and out of treatment centres, and eventually my weight stabilised, although I then developed bulimia, which I still deal with.

Even though my breasts were small, AA cup, I wanted them removed. I researched online and found a site that sold chest binders and another site that basically informed me about transsexualism being a thing. I started reading stories about trans men. So many said that they always identified with male characters in stories as a child, that they were tomboys, that they couldn’t imagine life as a woman; I felt the same way. I realised I didn’t need simply to hate my female body, I could change it.

Before I came out I was pretty confident. I didn’t think it was a bad thing to be a lesbian, but then the reactions came. I started dating one of my classmates. We sat together, we were cute with each other and would hold hands, so people noticed fairly quickly. We got some pretty nasty treatment. No one wanted to be in the locker room with us any more. I’m a really romantic person and it felt disgusting to be reduced to my sexuality. It made me feel horrible about being a lesbian.

It’s easy to see now how becoming trans happened pretty much at the same time. At a certain point, when you pass as male, you can just blend in with the rest of society. When I did transition, people stopped shouting “Lesbians!” at us in the street, because I looked more male. There are double standards about appearance too. When I didn’t shave my legs my classmates bullied me. Later, when I identified as a trans man, it suddenly became completely OK, because men don’t have to shave their legs. That felt really freeing and transition felt like the right thing for me.

I couldn’t have sex with my girlfriend — I didn’t want her to see me as a woman even though she knew I was female and was attracted to women. It’s so sad, but I never even let her touch my breasts before I got them removed. I thought of lesbian sex as not being real sex, and I wanted to get a phalloplasty one day so I could have “real sex”.

I started seeing a therapist, the only one in my home town in Germany who had ever worked with trans people. He was really into gender roles — he would tell me that if I want to be a man I had to get a new masculine mountain bike because I had one that was for women. He referred me for a mastectomy and hormones. Looking back, I cannot understand why he didn’t explore my eating disorders, how I felt about being a lesbian and also my obsessive compulsive disorder symptoms. For example, despite not sleeping with men, I had an extreme fear of getting pregnant. I was so paranoid I would buy pregnancy tests even though there was no chance. When I had just turned 20 I started hormones, followed by my mastectomy six months later. Then I had revision surgery because my areolae were stretched and they left breast tissue on one side. Three months after the revision I had a hysterectomy and ovariectomy. It all happened really quickly.

If you are looking for information about transitioning, you can find websites that list therapists who work with trans people. It’s so easy. You find one who is really affirming, and you can walk out of one appointment with a prescription for testosterone.

My family were extremely supportive. I don’t want to make them sound bad, but I think it was partly because they were desperate to find a solution for my eating disorder. The idea that I was “born in the wrong body” and we could fix my body gave them hope that it might all be fine. They had a lot of trust in all of these doctors.

by Anonymousreply 4July 12, 2020 4:10 PM

Yawn.

by Anonymousreply 5July 12, 2020 4:10 PM

Part 5

Anorexia made it easy for me to fall into developing [gender] dysphoria and wanting to transition because I had already spent so much time focusing on my body and wanting to change it with dieting and starving. From 15 to 17 it was really bad. When my weight went down to 39kg [just over six stone] my parents basically forced me into treatment. I was in and out of treatment centres, and eventually my weight stabilised, although I then developed bulimia, which I still deal with.

Even though my breasts were small, AA cup, I wanted them removed. I researched online and found a site that sold chest binders and another site that basically informed me about transsexualism being a thing. I started reading stories about trans men. So many said that they always identified with male characters in stories as a child, that they were tomboys, that they couldn’t imagine life as a woman; I felt the same way. I realised I didn’t need simply to hate my female body, I could change it.

Before I came out I was pretty confident. I didn’t think it was a bad thing to be a lesbian, but then the reactions came. I started dating one of my classmates. We sat together, we were cute with each other and would hold hands, so people noticed fairly quickly. We got some pretty nasty treatment. No one wanted to be in the locker room with us any more. I’m a really romantic person and it felt disgusting to be reduced to my sexuality. It made me feel horrible about being a lesbian.

It’s easy to see now how becoming trans happened pretty much at the same time. At a certain point, when you pass as male, you can just blend in with the rest of society. When I did transition, people stopped shouting “Lesbians!” at us in the street, because I looked more male. There are double standards about appearance too. When I didn’t shave my legs my classmates bullied me. Later, when I identified as a trans man, it suddenly became completely OK, because men don’t have to shave their legs. That felt really freeing and transition felt like the right thing for me.

I couldn’t have sex with my girlfriend — I didn’t want her to see me as a woman even though she knew I was female and was attracted to women. It’s so sad, but I never even let her touch my breasts before I got them removed. I thought of lesbian sex as not being real sex, and I wanted to get a phalloplasty one day so I could have “real sex”.

I started seeing a therapist, the only one in my home town in Germany who had ever worked with trans people. He was really into gender roles — he would tell me that if I want to be a man I had to get a new masculine mountain bike because I had one that was for women. He referred me for a mastectomy and hormones. Looking back, I cannot understand why he didn’t explore my eating disorders, how I felt about being a lesbian and also my obsessive compulsive disorder symptoms. For example, despite not sleeping with men, I had an extreme fear of getting pregnant. I was so paranoid I would buy pregnancy tests even though there was no chance. When I had just turned 20 I started hormones, followed by my mastectomy six months later. Then I had revision surgery because my areolae were stretched and they left breast tissue on one side. Three months after the revision I had a hysterectomy and ovariectomy. It all happened really quickly.

If you are looking for information about transitioning, you can find websites that list therapists who work with trans people. It’s so easy. You find one who is really affirming, and you can walk out of one appointment with a prescription for testosterone.

My family were extremely supportive. I don’t want to make them sound bad, but I think it was partly because they were desperate to find a solution for my eating disorder. The idea that I was “born in the wrong body” and we could fix my body gave them hope that it might all be fine. They had a lot of trust in all of these doctors.

by Anonymousreply 6July 12, 2020 4:12 PM

Part 6

Talking about detransitioning online has mostly been good for me, because now I’m not alone with it any more. I found all of these women I can now call friends. But it’s also been difficult online — trans people have called me a liar and I’ve been told I should be ashamed because I took resources away from real trans people. For some reason it’s never blamed on the surgeons or doctors. I’ve already lost parts of my body over all of this, so words from trans people can’t really hurt me. The nasty things they say to detransitioners are nothing compared with the pain I feel over having lost organs.

I’m horrified that when I went for the hysterectomy they didn’t emphasise to me how important these organs are. Now it’s too late. I’m 23 and I am basically in menopause already, with all the health implications that come with that. I can’t comprehend how doctors could let this happen, because they would never approve a 21-year-old woman for a complete hysterectomy for no medical reason. But once that woman identifies as a man, suddenly it’s really easy to get.

I broke up with my first girlfriend a month before my hysterectomy. I haven’t had a relationship since and I think it’s going to take a while because right now I feel horrible about my body. I don’t feel this way about other detransitioning women, but I feel mutilated.

Lee, 62

I transitioned when I was 44. I thought I’d be a different person as a man, happier and more confident, but my life was still screwed up. I saw a counsellor for five years, which helped me understand why my life has been so complicated. I thought I wanted to be male. But how would I know what it’s like to be a male? I’ve never been one. I can’t be. I’m an approximation of a male on the outside, but really I’m a woman on testosterone who has had surgery. This is just my opinion, and other people can have their views, but I don’t think there is such a thing as being born in the wrong body. I think that the causes often begin in childhood.

I see the cause of my transition as being my mother, grandmother and father. My brother was idolised by my mother and grandmother. He was the golden child who could do no wrong, their “little darling”. I was a “little heathen” and a “hussy”; I could do nothing right. My mother was always angry with me and very critical. I spent most of my childhood saying sorry and pleading with her. I hated my body from when I was a child. I thought I was fat. I hated the frilly dresses my mother would put me in. I wanted to wear the same clothes as my brother and have the same haircut as him, but she wouldn’t let me. My body felt like a prison when puberty started. I thought my periods were like a nightmare, it seemed so wrong to have blood coming out of my body.

When I was 15 my father got in touch with us after many years. I was pleased to hear from him. He would take my brother and me out and he bought us things — a stereo, clothes — and gave us money. He seemed like the perfect father. He invited us to stay at his house and my mother didn’t want us to go, but wouldn’t say why not. Of course I went anyway.

The first evening he raped me. He came in the next morning and he did it again. Afterwards I think I sat in the lavatory for about an hour. It’s like I didn’t know where I was.

Later my mother told me how violent he had been. She told me about a time he’d hung me out of the window by my ankle when I was a toddler to scare her. I have a feeling I was sexually abused as a child before she left him.

by Anonymousreply 7July 12, 2020 4:12 PM

Part 7

One morning when I was 44 I saw a female-to-male transgender person on television. I’d never seen one before. I thought: “That could be me.” It seemed like it might be the answer. I went to see a gender doctor privately in London. On the first appointment he said, “Let’s not waste any more time,” and injected me with testosterone. It was what I wanted, but I now think it was wrong — what I really needed was psychotherapy. I was screwed up. It was my head that needed help, not my body. I really liked the testosterone. It took a long time to get a beard and body hair, but I built up muscle very quickly.

I hated my breasts and couldn’t wait to get rid of them. I know a lot of trans men bind, but I didn’t because you can’t exercise in the gym with a binder, they are very uncomfortable. So I had a mastectomy a couple of months after starting testosterone. Within a couple more years I had a hysterectomy and ovariectomy, prosthetic testicles put in and a metoidioplasty, which is supposed to make your clitoris look like a small penis. In reality mine wasn’t big enough, just quarter of an inch. I ended up having a vaginectomy. Then I had a phalloplasty. They took skin from my arms. The scars are still prominent. It’s a very serious and complicated procedure and I didn’t heal easily. I had to take antibiotics many times.

I’ve had a lot of counselling, and I came to this huge realisation that I regretted transition. I wish I could go back to how I was before I saw the gender doctor.

I thought I would detransition, but I’ve decided I can’t physically do it. My body can’t take it. I’m not sure I’d survive all the surgeries. I’d be battling my body for the rest of my life. I have to accept my body the way it is now. On the outside people see a little bloke. Inside I’m a traumatised little girl. But I’m more accepting of myself for the first time ever. I just wish I’d been helped to accept myself earlier.

Thomasin, 20

I was a trans man for 2½ years.

When I think of growing up, everything was pink or blue. I played with Barbie and pink stuff because that’s what I was given. I probably would have played with my brother’s Hot Wheels toy cars if I’d felt there was a choice. Overnight, when I was 13, all the girls started wearing make-up. I tried to fit in, but I didn’t really want to. I felt like I had gone wrong compared with all the other girls.

I knew I didn’t feel attracted to boys sexually and it was obvious I felt different to other girls. I went online and found the term “asexual” on Tumblr. At school we’d been taught about being gay, but I don’t remember the term lesbian ever coming up. I thought that if I didn’t fancy boys then I must be asexual.

I recently found one of my first Tumblr posts, which went along the lines of: “I don’t like wearing dresses like other girls, I don’t want to put make-up on, could I be agender?” I applied how I felt about sexuality to gender: I don’t fancy boys so I must be asexual; I don’t feel like girls so I must be agender.

I soon felt confused by agender and non-binary, and I thought it would be easier to say I was a boy and decided I was transgender. I joined some transgender groups on Facebook. Some older trans people started messaging with me, which, in hindsight, was pretty ropey. I had just turned 16 and one person I was talking to was a man who identified as a trans woman in his forties. I don’t think it was OK that he talked to a 16-year-old girl the way he did. If I’d tell him I had doubts about being trans, he’d say doubts are normal and I should ignore them.

When I was 16 I decided to come out publicly as trans. I gave my parents a letter one morning on my way to school, basically saying you know me as your daughter but I am your son, Percey, and I need this to survive. Don’t get the wrong idea about them, but they went off the handle. My dad took it quite badly because he felt like he was losing his daughter. He asked why I thought I was a man. I think it’s interesting now that I couldn’t give him an answer.

by Anonymousreply 8July 12, 2020 4:14 PM

Part 8

They did some research online and read that it was best to let me transition and support me. So they helped me to get referred to a gender identity clinic in the UK.

Online there is a lot of advice about how to behave in your meeting at the gender identity clinic so you’ll get what you want. With a lot of pushing I got referred to an adult gender clinic because I wanted hormones and a mastectomy. However, by my second appointment I decided I didn’t want hormones at all. At the time I was saying I didn’t need hormones to be a man, but I think I was scared. I always had doubts about being a trans man. But either someone would say it’s normal to have doubts, or I would tell myself that.

I still wanted a mastectomy — wanting not to have breasts never changed — but I went back to being non-binary. I also still wanted a hysterectomy. I have really bad cycles, on-the-floor-in-pain kind of stuff. I need time off every month. Honestly, I think the fact that I hate my periods is part of why I felt I was trans.

I was told I could be waiting for months. I’m grateful now that I didn’t have the mastectomy, but at the time I was self-harming and felt terrible.

I can’t explain why I changed my mind about being trans, but kind of overnight when I was 18 I realised I may want kids. I don’t know what to put it down to — except maybe age and maturity. I started seeing holes in me being trans. I started questioning everything again.

Then some unexpected words came out of my mouth: “I need to accept womanhood.” It was so strange because I couldn’t say the word woman before — it used to make me feel ill, but it just changed.

A lot of people have said to me I was never trans. Well, I was. I was seen by my GP, the gender identity clinic — people accepted it, I changed my passport, all my documentation.

I feel better about my body as a woman than I used to. But I can’t turn around a lifetime of feelings in one year. I accept my breasts now. I used to only be able to shower or bath once a month when I was trans because I hated my body so much. I do it every day now and that’s an improvement!

I’ve accepted that I like women. I get that there are people with serious gender dysphoria, but I think the biggest reason that women are transitioning is because they can’t accept they are lesbians.

I got the “Valid” tattoo when I was non-binary to say I know myself best, I’m valid. I know other detransitioned women regret surgery choices and they have all my respect for everything they have gone through, but I’m glad the tattoo is the worst thing I came out of this with. I’d like to think it’s technically still applicable: I’ve accepted I am “valid” as a woman.

● What are the medical procedures?

Transitioning Transitioning is when someone changes their gender presentation and/or sex characteristics to match their internal sense of gender. There are different ways of transitioning: social (changing your name, pronoun, clothes), legal (changing your legal name, legal gender) and medical (taking hormones, surgery). People do not by law have to undergo medical treatment or physical changes in order to qualify for a gender recognition certificate, although in practice campaigners say the process is overly bureaucratic and “medicalised”.

A first stage in the “gender affirming” process is counselling. Hormone treatment may follow. From female to male, taking testosterone causes the growth of body and facial hair and deepens the voice. The clitoris can enlarge and libido and mood may alter. Fat will go from the hips and thighs, muscle will build on arms and legs. Periods may become heavier or irregular before stopping altogether as testosterone halts egg release/ovulation, though the long-term effects on fertility are not known.

by Anonymousreply 9July 12, 2020 4:15 PM

Part 9

A next step can be a double mastectomy, to remove the breasts, or chest reconstruction. Surgeons can also perform a phalloplasty, where a penis is made from skin (including fat and nerves) from the forearms, abdomen or thighs; or metoidioplasty, where the clitoris is surgically freed from the membranes that hold it in place to give the appearance of a small penis. Both surgeries may be accompanied by testicular implants.

Someone may also choose to have a vaginectomy, to remove the vaginal canal and close the opening; a hysterectomy (removing the uterus) and an oophorectomy (removing the ovaries). These are complicated surgeries that are generally spread over a year to 18 months.

Detransitioning Detransitioning is the halting or reversing of a transition. It can be difficult to come off testosterone, as extreme changes in hormone levels can cause anxiety and depression. Hormone replacement therapy may be needed to mitigate the early onset of menopause.

A mastectomy cannot be reversed, although cosmetic surgery (breast implants) may be an option. It will, however, be difficult to preserve full sensation and breastfeeding will not be possible. Hysterectomy, oophorectomy and vaginectomy are all permanent and cannot be reversed.

A phalloplasty can be surgically removed. Surgery to create a new vagina may be possible, but it will require abdominal surgery; the clitoris should still be intact, but there will be little sensation from the vagina itself.

by Anonymousreply 11July 12, 2020 4:15 PM

Why and how did the whole trans thing explode in England the way it did? All these social trends that start on campuses on the US West Coast make it over to Britain and within no time they saturate print, broadcast and social media. British people now talk more about "wokeness" than Americans do. Why?

by Anonymousreply 12July 12, 2020 4:19 PM

Why F&F an article published in a major newspaper on an important current issue that is the subject of current draft laws, hence a subject that all citizens should take an interest in, r10? Especially given the pertinence of this article to lesbians and gay men.

Given that this newspaper has a subscription, I thought it would be useful to post it all. Yes, it's long but I didn't want to truncate any of the individual stories, they are important.

by Anonymousreply 13July 12, 2020 4:19 PM

Sorry, two part 5s, the replies aren't instantly loaded.

by Anonymousreply 14July 12, 2020 4:20 PM

[quote]When I told people I was going to create a photographic series

Okay bitch, where are they then? Nobody has time to read a novel.

by Anonymousreply 15July 12, 2020 4:32 PM

R12, because we wanted to be PC and progressive and there was a simple assumption that now we've got same-sex marriage we need to do the same kind of thing for the trans as well. As in the US, the gay organisations were taken over by transcultists - even if they were ostensibly gay, they needed to promote trans issues in order to continue to receive public funding and their own lavish salaries.

This was then topped by the notion that the 2004 Gender Recognition Act needed to be updated, which led to the hugely problematic self-id law being proposed and new pro-transing recommendations for the National Health Service, which have recently been revised again to restore some balance.

Note that all this was being advanced by a Conservative government, so it wasn't even a politically controversial issue or one to which some kind of opposition was being expressed.

by Anonymousreply 16July 12, 2020 4:38 PM

You WILL transition and you WILL love it!

by Anonymousreply 17July 12, 2020 4:43 PM

R15, some are in the Sunday Times and Laura Dodsworth will eventually post the full series on her website.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 18July 12, 2020 4:47 PM

Thanks for posting this!

by Anonymousreply 19July 12, 2020 4:50 PM

This thread won't be around for very long - particularly once R10 gets his trans friends over here.

by Anonymousreply 20July 12, 2020 4:55 PM

[quote[Why F&F an article published in a major newspaper on an important current issue that is the subject of current draft laws, hence a subject that all citizens should take an interest in, [R10]?

Because you've been starting multiple trans threads everyday.

[quote]Especially given the pertinence of this article to lesbians and gay men.

This is only pertinent to lesbians not gay men.

by Anonymousreply 21July 12, 2020 5:03 PM

r20, they're really the scum of the earth.

by Anonymousreply 22July 12, 2020 5:05 PM

[quote]This is only pertinent to lesbians not gay men.

Are you only only interested in reading about subjects that relate directly to your experience? That's certainly not true for everyone here.

by Anonymousreply 23July 12, 2020 5:09 PM

[quote]Are you only only interested in reading about subjects that relate directly to your experience? That's certainly not true for everyone here.

So you're admitting that lesbians' hatred for trans women has nothing to do with gay men.

by Anonymousreply 24July 12, 2020 5:16 PM

Those stories are heartbreaking, especially the story of the 62-year-old. I can understand the pull of wanting to transition to a man, because men have more power in society. In the past 20 years, society has become extremely accepting of lipstick lesbians. In fact, they're fetishized to the point that straight women pretend to be "bisexual" to impress men. But the more masculine lesbians are still treated poorly. They've even been the butt of jokes on "Will and Grace", which is supposed to be pro-gay. Since they don't conform, they're labeled as "ugly" and thus harassed in school and on the streets by straight people and even by gay people. Becoming a man would make it acceptable for a masc woman to look, dress, walk, and talk in the way she feels comfortable. It would make her invisible (in a good way), and strangers are less likely to try to bully her.

The ideal would be to teach humans to stop treating each other like shit for being different. But that will never happen; humans are assholes by nature. I agree that society needs role models who represent all types of gays, not just the hot, gorgeous femme women and masc men. "Will and Grace" featured two types of gay men: the masc guy and a femme guy. Unfortunately, the femme male character was an unlikeable, shallow, rude bully. The show that got it right was Brothers, way back in the 80s. One of the main characters was a newly-out masc gay man. His more femme friend, Donald was, at first glance, the stereotypical queen, but he was actually the hero of the show, helping people solve their problems and bringing joy into their lives.

by Anonymousreply 25July 12, 2020 5:19 PM

[quote] Unfortunately, the femme male character was an unlikeable, shallow, rude bully.

But the show would've been pretty boring otherwise.

by Anonymousreply 26July 12, 2020 5:22 PM

No, I was pointing out that many people might enjoy reading articles about certain subjects even if they don't affect their lives directly. You're filling in your own blanks.

by Anonymousreply 27July 12, 2020 5:23 PM

If they can't silence the detransitioners, they'll use their magic line : "But they were never trans to begin with !"

by Anonymousreply 28July 12, 2020 5:27 PM

Oh, cool, R27. So it's just a story that has nothing to do with gay men. I agree.

by Anonymousreply 29July 12, 2020 5:28 PM

Can someone do a short summary of this article? TL;DR

by Anonymousreply 30July 12, 2020 5:29 PM

[quote] Can someone do a short summary of this article? TL;DR

Evil trans brainwash virtuous lesbians.

by Anonymousreply 31July 12, 2020 5:30 PM

lol R21 wants a site 50% pro soap opera threads, 50% anti soap opera, 100% ass pics

really though, they are all obviously mentally ill, just leave them alone, no need for these novellas

by Anonymousreply 32July 12, 2020 5:31 PM

Good for these detransitioners, they can be their natural selves.

by Anonymousreply 33July 12, 2020 5:32 PM

I read a few of the stories, but not all.

To be honest, nothing surprised me. But there was one common theme - not relating to the over sexualization of women and the bodies.

Women of DL - has things become more sexualized for women in the past 20 years? I can't tell - as a gay man, it doesn't register with me.

by Anonymousreply 34July 12, 2020 5:37 PM

r34 Don't engage with the fraus please.

by Anonymousreply 35July 12, 2020 5:39 PM

Better question: Women of DL -- explain why you're on this website.

by Anonymousreply 36July 12, 2020 5:39 PM

[quote]So it's just a story that has nothing to do with gay men.

Yes, along with the Epstein/Maxwell threads, the sitcom thread, the "Which country has the worst food?" thread, the Iowa Writers' Workshop thread, the reparations thread, the "overrated authors thread," and so on and so forth. It's called "general interest." In other words, DataLounge as usual.

by Anonymousreply 37July 12, 2020 5:39 PM

Sure, R37. But don't try to suggest this.

[quote]Especially given the pertinence of this article to lesbians and gay men.

by Anonymousreply 38July 12, 2020 5:41 PM

There are a few anti-trans lesbians who are trying to make out that its somehow gay men's responsibility to protect them from trans.

by Anonymousreply 39July 12, 2020 5:43 PM

My god what is next?

by Anonymousreply 40July 12, 2020 5:44 PM

That was the OP, R38. Not my words.

by Anonymousreply 41July 12, 2020 5:44 PM

I find the endless porn threads just as irrelevant to my life, R37. And the guys getting aroused over mug shots. Is the site supposed to be nothing but dick and Madonna threads?

by Anonymousreply 42July 12, 2020 5:50 PM

R25 Are you from the UK by any chance? I’m wondering why girls going to gender clinics has recently increased 4,000 percent which is probably the highest in the world. Is there more stigma to being a masculine or aging woman in the UK than elsewhere?

by Anonymousreply 43July 12, 2020 5:51 PM

R34 asks: "Women of DL - has things become more sexualized for women in the past 20 years? I can't tell - as a gay man, it doesn't register with me."

In 2005, my boss complained to me that he took his teenaged daughter shopping and all the clothes were too revealing (low cut shirts, crop tops, low-cut jeans that showed the navel).

Look at your local news anchors. The women will be in sleeveless dresses (sometimes even in the winter) showing off as much skin as possible (shoulders, arms, upper chest, legs). Men, on the other hand, cover as much skin as possible, with multi-piece suits (sometimes even in the summer) so that you only see their neck, heads, and hands. This has been unchanged for decades.

by Anonymousreply 44July 12, 2020 5:52 PM

R25, I'm an American woman. And we've all heard that saying that a "woman becomes invisible when she reaches a certain age". Well, a butch gay woman (or a straight, unattractive woman) becomes invisible (except when she's being harrassed) as early as adolescence.

by Anonymousreply 45July 12, 2020 5:56 PM

R35 and how do we know who YOU are, honey? present hole so we can verify

by Anonymousreply 46July 12, 2020 5:58 PM

JK Rowling should put her millions where her mouth is and introduce some lesbian or gender-nonconforming girls into her literature. Let the girls wear pants to class at Hogwarts, if they wish!

by Anonymousreply 47July 12, 2020 5:59 PM

R45 Plus the constant negative attention girls get from puberty is worse than invisiblity. Not disagreeing with you, but just adding to your point.

by Anonymousreply 48July 12, 2020 6:00 PM

This article is pertinent to lesbians and gay men because - so we're told, we're all part of the "LGBTQ+ community", hence trans issues are apparently gay issues too. It's also pertinent as it pertains to the concept of gender identity, which affects all gay people as we are being told that gender is simply an identity and has nothing to do with biological sex, therefore there is supposedly no such thing as same-sex attraction; hence, there is no such thing as homosexuality. The promotion of transitioning, the trans medical profession and the laws on gender identity impact on gay men as well as lesbians, in the same or very similar ways.

I already had the poster who is trying to shut this thread down on ignore. He should just put me on ignore too if he doesn't like the subject, instead of try to block all discussion.

by Anonymousreply 49July 12, 2020 6:01 PM

R30, essayist and photographer Laura Dodsworth took photographs and documented the stories of several UK and European women (former transmen) who had detransitioned. Common themes in these women's stories are that they were essentially butch lesbians who felt that, as such, they did not fit into society and it would be much easier to be male. Many also had other issues, e.g. difficult family backgrounds and body issues, e.g. anorexia.

They then realised that transitioning made them feel worse and so detransitioned and are learning to live with themselves again.

by Anonymousreply 50July 12, 2020 6:05 PM

I appreciate the thread, OP. Honestly, I haven't given T much thought, though obviously I was aware of the anti-T sentiments here on DL. This thread and the one on AGP (?) helped explain to me some of the nuance that's missing in the public discussion. I was blind to how T issues are affecting gays (and lesbians) and how damaging this agenda is to young people especially. The stereotypes around masculine and feminine need to go, and so does the stigma around being gay.

by Anonymousreply 51July 12, 2020 6:08 PM

R34 Like R44 said. Professional women in business situations are now wearing sleeveless tops with plunging necklines, and short skirts. I remember CNN's Erin Burnett shoved major cleavage in everyone's face every night on her news show. It was absolutely shocking to me. Also in recent years professional women on TV (lawyers, academic expert commentators) have gradually started talking like five-year-olds. Shoe heels have also become noticeably higher. The stress to their self-esteem and sense of power these women must be enduring must be just unbelievable. The message is clear: women are not to feel comfortable in their own bodies, or secure on their feet, or respected as professionals.

by Anonymousreply 52July 12, 2020 6:11 PM

[quote] I find the endless porn threads just as irrelevant to my life, [R37]. And the guys getting aroused over mug shots. Is the site supposed to be nothing but dick and Madonna threads?

This is a gay website.

by Anonymousreply 53July 12, 2020 6:13 PM

[quote]This article is pertinent to lesbians and gay men because - so we're told, we're all part of the "LGBTQ+ community", hence trans issues are apparently gay issues too.

But you don't believe they're gay issues, so why post this?

Except to try and force gay men to care about the lesbians' beef with trans women.

by Anonymousreply 54July 12, 2020 6:15 PM

[quote]I'm an American woman.

What are you doing on this website?

by Anonymousreply 55July 12, 2020 6:15 PM

[quote][R25], I'm an American woman. And we've all heard that saying that a "woman becomes invisible when she reaches a certain age".

In both the U.S. and the U.K. women have mutilated themselves to look younger for decades with little outrage, even though most plastic surgery to the face makes older women look like aliens or MTFs (ironically). Age dysphoria predates the trans fad by decades, and I think Rowling and her peers have taken a keen interest in the epidemic of gender dysphoria due to their own discomfort with aging and being female in an uber-patriarchal society.

by Anonymousreply 56July 12, 2020 6:15 PM

[quote]In both the U.S. and the U.K. women have mutilated themselves to look younger for decades with little outrage, even though most plastic surgery to the face makes older women look like aliens or MTFs (ironically). Age dysphoria predates the trans fad by decades, and I think Rowling and her peers have taken a keen interest in the epidemic of gender dysphoria due to their own discomfort with aging and being female in an uber-patriarchal society.

That's a really interesting point, R56.

I think I pointed out before that Caitlyn Jenner looked objectively less plastic than most of her family members and a lot of ciswomen her age in Hollywood.

by Anonymousreply 57July 12, 2020 6:18 PM

R48, you're right. In this society, a woman's treatment is based on her looks.

A woman who is attractive will get a lot of positive attention, but she'll also get a lot of unwanted attention from men. This includes sexual harassment from coworkers and creepy glares, catcalls, and threats from strangers who think she's a "bitch" if she doesn't return their attention/affection.

Unattractive women are constantly harassed by men on the streets. Before I had plastic surgery, I was in this category. Strangers on the street (both men and women) regularly reminded me that I as "ugly" (i.e. less worthy than them) when I was walking on the street, putting gas in my car, shopping for groceries. You wouldn't believe the level of assholishness unless you've experienced it for yourself, because these same people who gave me shit were probably polite to you because you met their standards of whatever.

Plain women often think they are "ugly" because no men give them attention. Men only give attention to women who are very attractive or very ugly. Plain women are invisible. Eventually, all women, no matter what they look like, will be dumped into the "plain" (invisible) category at age 45.

by Anonymousreply 58July 12, 2020 6:20 PM

R53, you can't fuck 24 hours a day.

by Anonymousreply 59July 12, 2020 6:20 PM

[quote][R53], you can't fuck 24 hours a day.

I think it's to be expected that a gay website will have a lot of threads on asses and penises. And on old-timey Hollywood actresses too.

But you explain why exactly there should be so many trans threads.

You either believe we're related (you claim you don't) or they're being posted ad nauseam for other reasons.

by Anonymousreply 60July 12, 2020 6:24 PM

R55, I'm a GAY American woman.

by Anonymousreply 61July 12, 2020 6:24 PM

Are straight websites nothing but gaping vag?

by Anonymousreply 62July 12, 2020 6:26 PM

[quote]I'm a GAY American woman.

This adds to my suspicion that all these anti-trans threads are lesbian heavy.

by Anonymousreply 63July 12, 2020 6:26 PM

Society judges masculine women, even the lesbian community does this at times. I can see how it might seem easier to just be a “man.”

The increasing tendency to identify younger and younger people & children as trans WILL end in a widespread medical scandal as well as personal tragedies, but I don’t think that’s widely accepted as yet.

by Anonymousreply 64July 12, 2020 6:27 PM

[quote] Are straight websites nothing but gaping vag?

If Datalounge were for straight men only, then, yes, it would probably have as much vag as DL has penis.

by Anonymousreply 65July 12, 2020 6:28 PM

[quote] Society judges masculine women, even the lesbian community does this at times.

Disagree. Society's not too hard on them, especially when you consider how society treats the opposite: effeminate males.

by Anonymousreply 66July 12, 2020 6:29 PM

Don't get me wrong, I love DL, but I am not a masc slut and it seems like those are the people who want to run the place.

by Anonymousreply 67July 12, 2020 6:30 PM

R66, I'm not an effeminate male, but I am worried about how society treats them, because DL treats them like absolute shit.

by Anonymousreply 68July 12, 2020 6:31 PM

[quote] Don't get me wrong, I love DL, but I am not a masc slut and it seems like those are the people who want to run the place.

I never really go near them.

I come here for discussion of Lucille Ball in Mame and analysis of Faye Dunaway voicemails.

But I understand they come with the territory.

by Anonymousreply 69July 12, 2020 6:32 PM

R66 well certainly effeminate gay male Jazz Jennings was treated terribly by his parents when they transed him. As was effeminate gay male Jackie Green, son of Mermaids’ Susie Green who did similar to him. Perhaps The Times needs an article about MtF detransitioners too.

by Anonymousreply 70July 12, 2020 6:32 PM

R56 you're crazy. she wrote a whole thing, which I only skimmed, about being sexually assaulted and not wanting to have same-sex areas opened to the transgenders. I don't know what about that makes you think plastic surgery.

plastic surgery is a big obsession with certain "effeminate" gay men, I will certainly grant you that

by Anonymousreply 71July 12, 2020 6:33 PM

[quote]well certainly effeminate gay male Jazz Jennings was treated terribly by his parents when they transed him. As was effeminate gay male Jackie Green, son of Mermaids’ Susie Green who did similar to him.

True.

by Anonymousreply 72July 12, 2020 6:33 PM

[quote]Perhaps The Times needs an article about MtF detransitioners too.

Are there any? They ALL seem to be lesbians.

by Anonymousreply 73July 12, 2020 6:34 PM

[quote]I'm not an effeminate male, but I am worried about how society treats them, because DL treats them like absolute shit.

Chuck Palahniuk wrote a story within a story in his novel “Invisible Monsters” about a group of Karens spot a suspected MTF and proceed to teach “him” to teach him a lesson... but there’s a twist! It has to do with the hypocrisy of how gender-nonconforming people are treated like shit by society regardless of their gender identity.

by Anonymousreply 74July 12, 2020 6:35 PM

R73 there are some, apparently. But it would be no surprise on the numbers if FtMs are the vast majority of detransitioners, lots of young girls on testosterone these days and many will desist when their lives don’t improve as a result.

by Anonymousreply 75July 12, 2020 6:36 PM

I'm just thankful to be comfortable in the gender I was born in to. It must be such all encompassing confusion to a young person to be dysmorphic.

by Anonymousreply 76July 12, 2020 6:36 PM

This is turning into a decent thread, who would have imagined.

by Anonymousreply 77July 12, 2020 6:37 PM

I suspect, given how society is much harsher on effeminate males than masculine females, that only the former can ever be forcibly transed. All the latter must approach it themselves to some extent.

by Anonymousreply 78July 12, 2020 6:38 PM

More trans threads! More, more!

by Anonymousreply 79July 12, 2020 6:39 PM

[quote]This is turning into a decent thread, who would have imagined.

There have been seedlings of decent discussion on these topics before, but they always reflect badly on women, so the anti-transers who start these thread then try to shut them down.

by Anonymousreply 80July 12, 2020 6:40 PM

The root cause is as always fear.

by Anonymousreply 81July 12, 2020 6:44 PM

they reflect badly on transgenders, who sadly are mentally ill. but you have your own agenda here, which I'm still not clear on

by Anonymousreply 82July 12, 2020 6:45 PM

[quote]Perhaps The Times needs an article about MtF detransitioners too.

There’s more interest in FTMs who surrender male privilege than MTFs who reclaim it, because the former is more dramatic and perplexing than the latter. Also, “news” is entertainment, and is all about about ad revenue, not fair-and-balanced reporting.

by Anonymousreply 83July 12, 2020 6:46 PM

Anti-transers have a lot more hatred for MtF than FtM, despite both being just as 'unscientific'.

by Anonymousreply 84July 12, 2020 6:49 PM

[quote]I suspect, given how society is much harsher on effeminate males than masculine females, that only the former can ever be forcibly transed. All the latter must approach it themselves to some extent.

BINGO - I think you just answered the perplexing question of why FTMs reject “male privilege” and de-transition: because they get a taste of what being an effeminate male in this world is REALLY like.

by Anonymousreply 85July 12, 2020 6:52 PM

Certainly, R78, I cannot think of as egregious an example of parental influence for any FtMs as in the Jennings or Green cases. There’s some anecdotal evidence FtM identities are if anything, more a social contagion amongst young girls along the lines of anorexia or “goth” styling, and perpetuated that way rather than by parents.

Although I do personally know an FtM who has an angry, sometimes abusive father who always wanted a son who very much supports her transition to male having disapproved of her being a lesbian, so I can see how it might happen.

Cher apparently disapproved of Chastity Bono being “masculine.” The liking women was one thing, but the styling another, supposedly. Nevertheless, transition was her own decision as an adult, evidently.

by Anonymousreply 86July 12, 2020 6:52 PM

I've heard she's more upset with Chaz being fat than being FtM.

Which I believe.

by Anonymousreply 87July 12, 2020 6:54 PM

R83 - I agree. This is an important article and provides some larger issues surrounding the FTM phenomenon in the UK. But It's not FTMs that are the problematic personalities and issues. It's the MTFs that just self-identify and don't transition hardly at all.

"Masculine" women have a hard time, but so do feminine men. But the gay community has a built-in outlet for this in the form of drag. Although there are some Drag King contests, it's very few in comparison.

It's complicated - there are several different issues in the trans rubric.

by Anonymousreply 88July 12, 2020 6:55 PM

Chaz Bono's face pops up in these internet spam/"news" site every so often, and he really does look like a woman. I don't understand who would want to live like that. insisting you are one gender and making every one call you that--and they do, but you still look like your real gender. what is the point

by Anonymousreply 89July 12, 2020 6:55 PM

[quote]Although there are some Drag King contests, it's very few in comparison.

That's because most people don't get the same visceral reaction from seeing a woman in a suit as a man in a dress.

I think that also explains why MtF get so much hate when FtM don't.

by Anonymousreply 90July 12, 2020 6:56 PM

Haha, very possible R87. I do find it of interest Chaz chose to prioritise transitioning over losing the damn weight. Yes, yes, I know, she was living a horrible lie etc, it was awful, but wouldn’t you slim down a bit if you want to make a big life change.

by Anonymousreply 91July 12, 2020 6:57 PM

I'm very anti-detransition. These people don't deserve an out, transitioning should not be like a fucking fashion montage in an 80's movie where you try on different genders to see if you'll like it and take them off just as easily. If they were labeled mentally sound enough to make the transition in the first place they should be forced to live with it. Whatever happened to owning up to your own decisions? They've made their beds, now they should lie in them.

by Anonymousreply 92July 12, 2020 6:58 PM

I don't think Chaz looks any more like an FtM than Cher looks like an MtF.

by Anonymousreply 93July 12, 2020 6:59 PM

Are there any stories of MtF de-transition, whenever it comes up it's always FtMs.

by Anonymousreply 94July 12, 2020 7:00 PM

R88 I worked behind the scenes in the drag world, and most heterosexual American rubes don’t know or care about the difference between drag, trans or gender-non-conforming. They harass and abuse the queens horribly, while drag kings are seen as cute for being tomboys. It’s a risky profession for gay men.

by Anonymousreply 95July 12, 2020 7:00 PM

It aggravates me that we treat transing yourself as something that finally makes you the gender you wish to become and yet we're also supposed to be okay with people reversing the process just as quickly as they made it.

by Anonymousreply 96July 12, 2020 7:01 PM

I think I agree R93! I think Chaz just looks like an unattractive guy who needs to lose some weight, especially off the face. I wouldn’t immediately think FtM if I didn’t know, I don’t think.

At 5ft 6 (I googled) he at least has the benefit of being somewhat plausible as a short guy, most FtMs I’ve seen are shorter than that...

by Anonymousreply 97July 12, 2020 7:01 PM

I have no more fucks to give about trans or detrans. My preferred pronoun is LGB.

by Anonymousreply 98July 12, 2020 7:01 PM

R92 --I agree to some extent but I suppose the OP's point is that medical standards and laws are not yet in place to prevent unscrupulous doctors/medical facilities from enabling all this. These people were deemed medically fit to transition but that doesn't mean much, I guess. maybe it varies by country

by Anonymousreply 99July 12, 2020 7:02 PM

If I decide to cut off my leg because I'm a crazy idiot, then I should be forced to live with that decision for the rest of my life, even if I hate being handicapped. Personal responsibility.

by Anonymousreply 100July 12, 2020 7:02 PM

Cher was like 5'9'. She may have shrunk a little with age, but it her heyday, she kinda could look like a drag queen.

by Anonymousreply 101July 12, 2020 7:04 PM

[quote]I have no more fucks to give about trans or detrans. My preferred pronoun is LGB.

I'm just gay. A gay man. LGB is even more artificial than LGBT.

by Anonymousreply 102July 12, 2020 7:05 PM

What R99 said. I think the argument being made is that transition is too easy. I am not sure I entirely agree, but I do note that detransitioners are not allowed to simply revert to their birth sex under U.K. law if they have a Gender Recognition Certificate. They have to spend another two years transitioning back again... like any other trans person.

I tend to think medical & legal transitioning should be a very last resort for a very small minority of people, including nearly everyone who does not conform to the norms expected of their sex. There has been a slight change in tone in society, where it is seen as more of a plausible option to start down the trans path, rather than as being a personal crossing of the Rubicon that should only be undertaken by the very committed.

by Anonymousreply 103July 12, 2020 7:05 PM

[quote]There has been a slight change in tone in society, where it is seen as more of a plausible option to start down the trans path, rather than as being a personal crossing of the Rubicon that should only be undertaken by the very committed.

I imagine that's because of increased awareness of lesbian who spend a couple of years as a man and then go back to being lesbians.

In an '80s dress-up montage style. (Ha! That was funny)

by Anonymousreply 104July 12, 2020 7:07 PM

R104 - It’s like Tootsie or Freaky Friday - walk in the other person’s shoes for a while and you’ll appreciate your true biological sex or age more than before.

by Anonymousreply 105July 12, 2020 7:11 PM

I imagine a lot of them think they're going to get some male privilege and then are shocked to find out it doesn't exist so change back.

by Anonymousreply 106July 12, 2020 7:12 PM

yes, I'm a gay man, but we're speaking of political allies, no? L and G are political allies. It doesn't make me a lesbian because I pal around with lesbians or because we support the same causes. LGB would make sense but I have no idea what political stance B takes, if any. I suspect none but they seem harmless enough. TQIA has nothing in common with any of this

by Anonymousreply 107July 12, 2020 7:17 PM

GET A LIFE, DL TRANNY STALKER!

YOUR ENTIRE LIFE REVOLVES AROUND POSTING ANTI-TRANS ARTICLES EVERY DAY.

YOU ARE OBSESSED WITH TRANNIES AND YOU CANNOT LIVE WITHOUT THEM, EVEN THOUGH YOU PRETEND TO HATE THEM. YOU DEPEND ON THEM, EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

FUCK OFF AND DIE ALREADY!

by Anonymousreply 108July 12, 2020 7:22 PM

[quote]L and G are political allies.

No more than 'LGB' and T.

Read up on the history of how Gay Rights became LGBT.

Lesbians who feel comfortable organizing under the banner GAY (and that's gay alone) are welcome to join.

by Anonymousreply 109July 12, 2020 7:22 PM

LGB had never existed as a term.

by Anonymousreply 110July 12, 2020 7:23 PM

Uh oh look who's back the trans loon that tries to shut down these threads.

by Anonymousreply 111July 12, 2020 7:24 PM

I see the trans have found this thread - see r108's reasoned reply.

R108 does more to push people away from the trans movement than anything written in this thread. Well done psycho.

by Anonymousreply 112July 12, 2020 7:25 PM

R107 “G” used to mean anyone who loved the same sex, male or female. When “L” was added in the 80s, the fracture began. Then the “B” wanted their cake, and stopped identifying as (part) gay, and when the other letters came along, all went to hell. Our formerly inclusive rainbow has been desecrated with segregationist graffiti, and I wish we could go back to being the GAY COMMUNITY.

by Anonymousreply 113July 12, 2020 7:28 PM

Put R5 on ignore and take a leak at how many of these threads he’s on and how much he tries to gaslight and DARVO.

by Anonymousreply 114July 12, 2020 7:28 PM

*look not leak

by Anonymousreply 115July 12, 2020 7:35 PM

[quote]Read up on the history of how Gay Rights became LGBT.

Some college campuses still have “Gay-Straight Alliance” clubs, an artifact of this bygone era.

by Anonymousreply 116July 12, 2020 7:40 PM

The people who think L and G are still allies are fucking crazy. Maybe in the 70's, but nowadays lesbians hate gay men and gay men hate lesbians. We're no more allied than the gays and the trans are allied.

by Anonymousreply 117July 12, 2020 7:42 PM

The very existence of the term 'Lesbian' is proof we're not allies.

by Anonymousreply 118July 12, 2020 7:44 PM

(Gaslight, DARVO, safeguarding, spaces, socialization, TERF bingo.

Dark lesbians.)

by Anonymousreply 119July 12, 2020 7:45 PM

I knew a MtF who detransed because his adult kids didn't approve. Met him pre-trans M. He always hung out with ladies and after he transed, he seemed happier as F (though in hindsight he might have been too happy - as in euphoric - and that's usually a sign something is off). Then he got really angry as he detransed, showing pictures of himself when he was in his 20s (well built, good looking) and asking if why he wasn't happy being male when he was so attractive. Dated women the whole time. I remember he was angry that the girls on the softball team were all straight.

Anyway, seems like MtF and FtM have different issues. Not sure why people here are making it into a competition, however.

Are we forgetting the Is? Whole helluva lot of them riding the trains in India.

by Anonymousreply 120July 12, 2020 7:54 PM

R54 90% of threads on here have nothing to do with gay issues or male homosexuality in general. How is this thread any different from Rats is NYC thread, random sitcom thread etc?

by Anonymousreply 121July 12, 2020 7:56 PM

[quote]90% of threads on here have nothing to do with gay issues or male homosexuality in general. How is this thread any different from Rats is NYC thread, random sitcom thread etc?

1) Because OP is troll, who starts huge numbers of these threads and has been doing so for a month.

2) Because OP and the people on them try to claim that they have something to do with gay men when called out on this.

by Anonymousreply 122July 12, 2020 7:59 PM

R120 "the girls on the softball team were all straight" Now, that's just not believable.

by Anonymousreply 123July 12, 2020 8:07 PM

[quote]The people who think L and G are still allies are fucking crazy. Maybe in the 70's, but nowadays lesbians hate gay men and gay men hate lesbians.

I disagree. It was a small but aggressive and influential cadre of misandrist “lesbian separatists” who created this divide, gave birth to the “L”, and even today they humiliate and beat down gay women who who want to associate with gay men.

Some of the separatists became the batshit crazy “TERFs” we all know and love, while some misandrists are trans-friendly because they believe biological women, FTMs and MTFs are all victims of misogyny, so to them straight AND gay men are the enemy.

BTW, Not all gender-critical women (gay or straight) hate men - JK Rowling, for instance. I’m no fan of hers, but her protagonists are typically male, and she seems to hold men in high regard (despite having been abused by her own ex-husband). It’s not a black and white issue.

by Anonymousreply 124July 12, 2020 8:10 PM

[quote]BTW, Not all gender-critical women (gay or straight) hate men - JK Rowling, for instance. I’m no fan of hers, but her protagonists are typically male, and she seems to hold men in high regard (despite having been abused by her own ex-husband). It’s not a black and white issue.

She's straight. There are differences between them and the lesbian TERFs.

by Anonymousreply 125July 12, 2020 8:14 PM

[quote] It was a small but aggressive and influential cadre of misandrist “lesbian separatists” who created this divide, gave birth to the “L”, and even today they humiliate and beat down gay women who who want to associate with gay men.

There was enough of them for it (LGBT) to become a thing. Lesbians initially supported T joining the other letters because it shored up their own place there. So it went from Gay, to Gay and Lesbian (kinda), then GLBT, the LGBT.

[quote]Some of the separatists became the batshit crazy “TERFs” we all know and love, while some misandrists are trans-friendly because they believe biological women, FTMs and MTFs are all victims of misogyny, so to them straight AND gay men are the enemy.

That's why it's basically impossible to organize under the term LGB. The people who insist the term lesbian being used will turn around and say gay men have privilege. No very helpful for a civil rights movement.

by Anonymousreply 126July 12, 2020 8:17 PM

For fuck's sake MURIEL GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER AND BAN THE PSYCHOTIC TRANNY STALKER TROLL (R10). In this thread alone he has written over 40 posts (that's a third of all replies). He does this all the fucking time to derail discussions.

by Anonymousreply 127July 12, 2020 8:18 PM

I’m having trouble believing the girl who heard of asexuality but had no idea lesbians are a thing. How does that happen?

by Anonymousreply 128July 12, 2020 8:25 PM

[quote]I’m having trouble believing the girl who heard of asexuality but had no idea lesbians are a thing. How does that happen?

Yes, that's really hard to believe.

by Anonymousreply 129July 12, 2020 8:28 PM

Here are some classic statements from psychotic tranny R10 (who is responsible for 1/3 of all the posts in this thread):

- Saying that Bruce Jenner looks better than actual women

- Derailing a thread about a Moroccan tranny responsible for the suicides of multiple gay men

- Constantly screeching about women and calling them "fish", "dyke", "TERF", etc

- Believes all women are narcissists

- Thinks little gay boys should be doing drag

by Anonymousreply 130July 12, 2020 8:38 PM

The very existence of detransition calls into question how real and immutable being trans is, the same way that a formerly “straight” person coming out as gay in their 40s calls into the question of how real and immutable sexual orientation is. The narratives of “why?” are similar.

This is the reason I hate the “Q” (QUEER/QUESTIONING) most of all - it’s the Trojan horse for straight people want to invade the gay community. “Q” has normalized endless navigation and intersections between the other alphabet identities. It is the genesis of the “gender-fluid trans demi-pansexual.” Can we at least streamline the letters down to GLA for “Gay, Lesbian, and Aspie?”

Face it - either you are gay, part-gay, or not gay

by Anonymousreply 131July 12, 2020 8:55 PM

So, R131, are you saying that transitioned people and 40s comer outers can be "part gay"? Or are you limiting your club to Kinsey-6 gold star gays who lost their virginity at age 12?

by Anonymousreply 132July 12, 2020 8:58 PM

Nothing is good enough for some of these clowns but gold star masc on masc white boy action. It's almost like the hate gay culture, hmm.....

by Anonymousreply 133July 12, 2020 9:01 PM

R132 I think coming out of the closet ONCE is reasonable, but darting in and out wearing different clothes is a mental disorder. Pick an identity and stick with it. Even a “gold star” gay person may be lying. There is absolutely no way to prove it unless they are under 24/7 surveillance.

by Anonymousreply 134July 12, 2020 9:05 PM
Loading
Need more help? Click Here.

Yes indeed, we too use "cookies." Take a look at our privacy/terms or if you just want to see the damn site without all this bureaucratic nonsense, click ACCEPT. Otherwise, you'll just have to find some other site for your pointless bitchery needs.

×

Become a contributor - post when you want with no ads!