Do you believe keeping up a friendship is a mutual thing?

He was just making small talk dear.

Obviously neither one of you actually cared about keeping in contact with each other, or you would have.

I have friend I havent talked to in years - we talk and it's like we just spoke yesterday - others need constant care and feeding. Then I have one way friends - they never call me but I have to call or text or email them.

I've had this scenario come up one time or another over the past several decades in my group of friends I've had since going back to high school and longer. As I became older, I realized that in the big picture if one or another of us is asking these questions or saying these things, it's a sign that we're still making an effort after all these years to reconnect reach out--even if it's sometimes scolding one another, if not making plans. Personally I agree that a friendship is a relationship that takes mutual work, like any other. But in the end what's important is that if you are staying connected still, even if it is to put something critical out there with each other, that means that each of you still thinks the other is still loved and worthwhile to stay in touch with. Longstanding friendships are just worked at mutually, they just "are" because you each continue to thing of one another as friends no matter who or what.

I had a recent situation with a married couple that I've been friends with since high school 20 years ago. They've been together since they were 16. Over the years we've somewhat drifted apart. Once they had kids, we saw less of them and when we did see them, it was basically us sitting on their couch for a few hours while they made their toddler perform for us "OMG Aiden show them your Ninja Turtle toys". The friendship would have probably died a natural death if not for the fact that they live in our neighborhood and we run into each other at least a few times a year in the supermarket. So our friendship is on this perpetual life support of "oh heyyyyyy yes we MUST get together! Text me, we'll make plans". Which we never do. Now I kind of dread running into them.

Since I opened up my own small business my "best friend" doesn't answer my calls or texts. I'm so busy since the business license I don't have time for him but this was happening beforehand. Weird. People are such phonies sometimes, I guess

Maybe he was trying to deflect attention away from the fact that he hadn't called or messaged you. Best defense is offense type of thing. Or maybe there was a misunderstanding the last time you communicated.

How we perceive our friendships is a two-way street. I have lots of friends that I don't interact with for years at a time, others, it's like every year, and others it's often. My relationship with them is the same as their relationship with me. We enjoy our contact and the frequency of that contact. I understand they have lots of things going on in their lives. The people I'm closest to make my life good. The friends that I seldom talk to provide joy when we reconnect.

Is friendship a mutual thing? It sure is! When it's mutual. If not, then the person who feels a need to initiate contact makes the call, text, or whatever to keep in touch. If that isn't you, don't feel guilty. Friendship isn't based on some unwritten rule that binds you forever.

For me, I keep in contact with those who I want in my life and to share our ups and downs. Though, regardless of how often we stay in touch, if they ask for my help, I'll be there.

Society tells us we must have a huge circle of friends. It's a way to convince us to spend money. Look how quickly things collapsed when we stopped. I think more people are natural introverts than we realize.

I hate when people try to throw a guilt trip on me by saying, "it's been so long, how come you never call me?"

That's when my inner gay bitch rears its ugly head and says back, "honey, the phone works both ways! Are your arms broken?"

That usually shuts them up. Don't ever tell me shit like that again.

My freshman roomie. Can’t believe we never fooled around. He’s divorced from the mother of his children. Still quite got. He and I are the only ones who have maintained ourselves over the years

He made a big deal about finding me. I threw in a grindr reference that stopped his texts for a while. Now he is back at it.

A not dissimilar thing happened to me too OP.

A friend who had been out of touch and hadn't responded to my texts or calls messages me saying I'd been not keeping in touch.

Nothing pisses me off more than this disingenuous shifting of blame. It was no biggie that she hasn't replied our called back. I'd have taken out up where we had left off. But I like these little unnecessary mind games.

I called her out on it saying she was the one who had dropped communications. She's gone silent again.

I had an old friend who was best friends with me for 15-20 years. We did trips together. Rode bikes together. Built a boat together. Went to big wine tastings together. I was best man at his wedding. I helped him move twice. When he joined a law firm he got busier with his job and new friends, so we didn’t connect as often, but when we did it was like we picked up where we left off. Then he didn’t always return my calls. It didn’t seem right, but I couldn’t believe he would discard me as a friend. This continued for more than a year until I just gave up when I started to feel like his stalker. He never contacted me or offered any explanation.

It'll never be 50-50 and I'm fine w. doing more than half the work, especially if the other person has a family, a demanding job, is helping an aging relative. That said, even in those scenarios, at some point zero effort comes across as "I can't be bothered." At those points I have better things to do and people know where to find me.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no,.

With some friends who exhibit timidity, procrastination, disorganization, or whatever cause, you may be a long time waiting for them to contact you. Yet they may be genuinely pleased to hear from you. It may always be that way.

Some friends pop up when they want something. That's not necessarily a bad thing. I have friends on the backburner slow simmer of FB or IG and we follow each other and send a quick note or now and then. If he wants advice on places to stay and eat in Stockholm, he'll send me a real note and we'll then have an exchange for a few days: lists of restaurants and hotels and news and gossip and bitching about politics. I'm glad to hear from him, and glad to "help" with his question. He's not asked me for a large loan or to help move a piano up six flights of stairs; I'm out nothing in helping and we've had the pleasure of chatting and keeping up with one another a bit. Another friend has an itch to relocate even more often than I do and she will ask my advice and use me as a sounding board. Again, it's a pleasure to hear from her, we catch up on other things, and I listen and share some ideas or questions. Both of them might technically "want" something, but both know I will be more than happy to hear from them and help in any way that I can.

I've had friends who are very busy people professionally and their lives revolve around that. We genuinely liked each other but didn't have the chance to spend much time together. However they love being asked to help , it's their lens, their friendships, even ones that didn't arise professionally, are intertwined with their professional lives. They love matching people up with common interests, or one person in a position to help another, or to help someone find a job or switch a career, or for advice in starting some project or venture. These friends are happiest when giving . Others are the same but on a purely personal level, the guy who's always volunteering to help you with anything, who offers to lend you his truck to move a piece of furniture, and is so thrilled that you asked him that comes along and does all the hard work and buys you lunch.

Other people change from roles from initiator of contact to recipient, and they may switch back. Mood and mental well-being may have a role. It's not that difficult to read if someone reacts awkwardly to hearing from you and seems to be just being polite enough to get through the interaction. It's up to you to suss that up and figure out what to do, or what not to do.

Not all friends are equal and not all tend their relationships with close attention to quid pro quo.

The people who say "you haven't been keeping in touch" do so because they know THEY haven't been keeping in touch, feel guilty about it, and are fending off an imaginary accusation from you by opening with that salvo.

Which begs the question: is this somebody you WANT as a friend?

R15 & R16 are such excellent responses.

This struck a chord with me.

[quote] With some friends who exhibit timidity, procrastination, disorganization, or whatever cause, you may be a long time waiting for them to contact you. Yet they may be genuinely pleased to hear from you. It may always be that way.

Since kindergarten I’ve always been shy and unsocial, and it’s likely I have undiagnosed Autism.

What this means is that I struggle to give out the right signals and do the right things by friends and the people I know. I usually miss social cues, skip out on get-togethers and cannot for the life of me figure out how to network or run an adult social life. I’m a loner crippled with anxiety and don’t have a social outlet beyond the Internet for these reasons. Basically a human disaster.

So it’s really fantastic when anyone I know or once knew takes the time to shoot me a message or a call without ulterior motive. It restores my faith in humanity a little when that happens.

This happened with a lot of my straight friends after they got married. Either I really didn't like their wives and didn't want to spend time with them or it was just weird. Our lives just started going in different directions. The truth is it reaches a point when all you have in common is the past and when you do get together it's a series of remember when we...

Maybe friendships aren't necessarily a "life-long" thing, but are fluid in nature based on shared interests or experiences. You have work friendships, but once you no longer work together, you no longer have that connection and drift apart. Same thing with friendships you have in school. The people you have in your life will naturally shift and evolve as you mature and your life situation changes. Trying to maintain a friendship when your initial "connection" is gone is simply too much effort for most people.

R18 marriage is often a friendship killer.

Two of my old HS friends who I’ve not spoken to in several years recently called out of nowhere to show off their diamond rings and the houses they just bought. I outwardly responded with interest and warm well wishes, but in my heart and mind I was saying a private quiet goodbye to them. It is never the same after a wedding, and married people just cannot socialise easily or happily with singles (particularly when young or when there are kids or dependents involved).

R19 yes there is definitely a context and milieu to the majority of friendships, though I don’t like the tired oft-cited argument that people with spouses or kids or busy jobs are automatically “too mature” to spend time with the single Baristas of this world. It seems the only lifelong enduring strong friendships are the ones people make when they are little kids (say 12 years and under).

Sorry, R20, if it came across that by "mature" I was referring to the progression of child-teenager-single adult-married adult-adult with children. I should have used the term evolve or develop. People's priorities naturally change based on personal experiences and their own life goals, and you can progress in your life to the point that you no longer share enough with someone to keep the connection.

[quote][R18] marriage is often a friendship killer.

You're right. I think what typically happens is that the wife's friends and their husbands become the key friend group. That's the thing about straight guys, in many cases after they're married the wife sort of controls all of the social aspects of their lives.

In a perfect world, it should be mutual but often isn’t. I’ve noticed that when friends move, start new jobs, retire, or become parents or grandparents, I hear from them less often. They have new routines, and I was part of their old routine. Then I start to wonder, were these ever true friendships? Shutdown gave them all the opportunity to pause and connect in every way possible but face to face, and except for a few friends and family members, it just hasn’t happened. It has left me stunned and confused, to be honest. They do seem glad to hear from me, but I have to do nearly all the reaching out.

Never ever try to maintain a friendship with a straight guy after he obtains another serious girlfriend or gets married. Why? His new bitch doesn't want your gay ass around to potentially suck his dick better than she can!

The wifey can't maintain control over the relationship if he is friends with gays. We are her competition since the sex and blowjobs stop when he puts a ring on it. He just doesn't know it yet. She doesn't want him to give in to temptation with the gay friend around.

Even if I feel some friends don't keep up the friendship I usually do not cut them off completely. I just let them sit on the back burner. Maybe they'll get a group email from me a few years later.

[quote]The people who say "you haven't been keeping in touch"

Such a warm and gracious opening, to state a negative, and instantly put you in the wrong.

[quote]Which begs the question: is this somebody you WANT as a friend?

Almost certainly not.

I used to know a guy who told me that he likes all of his friends to reach out to him on a regular basis to keep the friendship alive because of how busy he was (he was a photographer). But my attitude was, um, sorry but friendships are a two-way street and I'm busy, too, so either you meet me halfway or forget it. I'm not going to carry the burden of always having to be the person who thinks of him, reaches out to him, and makes all the effort while he just sits back and relaxes on the basis that he's "so busy" and can't be bothered. Needless to say our "friendship" did not last long.

R27. It wasn’t being busy that made him feel like this. It was a sense of superiority for whatever reason. I would have called him out on it.

This 💯

R29 expresses the situation when one or both parties knows the link has no more fun or impetus about it, but each is too nice to ghost. Or unable to due to proximity.

It's familiar enough, but too cynical as a catch-all. If you're lucky adult friendships can endure, with a measure of respect, good-humour and forbearance to get through bumpy patches.

You kind of sense the ones who might be keepers from basic ease and lack of static. It never feels like too much effort to keep in touch.

On the show thirtysomething the two single characters- Melissa and Gary would hang out with Michael and Hope- the married couple- all the time. Do DL people think this was unrealistic?

R29: This is often the observation of Europeans who live in the U.S., that American always squeal with delight to see a friend, gushing for a moment, saying "we really do have to get together sometime," then looking at the time and scurrying off to Whole Foods or yoga class or something, anything.

I have the same thing happening to me all the time. I run into people I used to be friends with and they ask why they didn't hear anything from me. I have severe abandonment, trust and attachment issues and I generally don't bother with people I used to know anymore because I am often the first one to reach out etc. I don't bother with any people in general for that matter except for about 3 people. That being said, I do believe that it is a mutual thing. But if it's forced it's just pointless.

I got rid of one way friendships years ago.

Made me feel more invested, more needy and patronized when I called.

Not worth it. Send me a Christmas letter instead...

I liked R15 response but ultimately it is a mutual thing.

A work friend once said "Every relationship has an expiration date." At first I fought the idea, but as i got older, I begrudgingly realized she was right. I go back to what she said every time I realize I haven't heard from someone in a while. I weigh the pros and cons of reaching out, and decide if I want them to be past their expiration date or not. Most of the time I give one more try before giving up on them.

In my experience having kids means the friendship is pretty much over. As I was told by those friends "I don't fit their lifestyle anymore." Way harsh, but ok. Let's hope you don't get divorced in the future.

It should be as mutual as a double ended dildo.

[quote] "Every relationship has an expiration date."

That's such a lame Boomer 1980's personal growth slogan. Guess what, life has an expiration date. I bet you anything that same friend would not say that about her marriage starting out. Oh no, that's for ever. Or her kids growing up and still staying in touch.

[quote]In my experience having kids means the friendship is pretty much over.

YEP. That's happens to me numerous time with all the straight female friends I had when they were single. Only one really made a big effort to stay friends and her daughter who is now 16 likes us like her favorite uncles. But the others, just like someone said up thread. They might invite you over in a weak attempt to pretend they still give a shit, but then they will sit you down with the spawn and expect you to be excited they are watching the Disney channel 24/7 and know all the songs. Never an adult conversation after that it. All revolves around their precious crotch fruit. They focus their time with other mothers and before you know it, like you have been ghosted.

I think it is a mutual thing, sometimes it more 60/40 or switches to 40/60, it's fluid like anything else in life. I have one friend I met at my first job some 30 years ago and we talk every week. But there were times when he was moving around the world we lost touch and a year went by without any communication. But that's how good friends are, you can pick up where you left off and both want to.

In contrast, I had a friend who is no longer because I realized I really meant nothing to him other than helping him. I met him in a bereavement group, talked about our deepest feelings losing a partner to AIDS, even helped him scatter his partners ashes. We were friends for a number of years, I helped him get into the same industry, went to each other's birthday parties etc. I thought things were fine but when he announced on FB that he was getting married I soon realized I was not in the loop. No only did he not tell me about the proposal, I was not even invited to any of his per-celebrations or "destination wedding". He claimed on FB that the hotel could only accommodate so many people, money was limited and if anyone didn't get an invite don't be offended and selfish. Mind you he had enough money, thousand of dollars to hire a "B" grade celebrity to do the service. I realized after seeing the dozens of pics he posted day after day that i was not as important to him as his younger neighbor who he had the hots for but barely knew.

Agreed, R41, if you're lucky you have a handful of friends that don't require maintenance, that you can call (or not take a call) five times in a row without an upbraiding, that you can lose contact with for an extended time and pick up with again very easily. Despite often having a long history as friends, these friendships—to my experience—are always much more in the present than in recollecting old times. There's an ease that doesn't require explanation and accounting and keeping up.

Age is a big factor, I would say at least as much as marriage and kids and moving apart. People in their early twenties often can't get enough of their friends, and are convinced that their friends "would just die if I didn't go to see them in the hospital for the removal of his arm cast." They interpret interdependence and group movement as some sort of shared emotional need that's almost an independent organism. At the same time they are convinced that their world of friends will expand and expand and expand the older the get, never diminishing in number or rate of growth. Fast forward a decade and things have changed, fast forward to their early forties and most can't fucking be bothered to maintain the few friendships they have left. Make new friends? Nice idea, but who has the time or energy for that? The friendship world that was a complicated and ever expanding network has shrunk to a few friends they're not even sure that they much like, that's when the accounting of reciprocity comes in.

I used to have a lot of friends, but our lives just drifted in different directions and we lost touch.

I had my first colonoscopy and that's when I realized that I didn't anyone to pick me up from the procedure. I've sort of set up my life so that I have a bunch of acquaintances, but no true friends. Or people that I want to inconvenience with my stuff (if that makes sense). I'm an only child and I don't live anywhere near my parents and my Mom always asks me what am I gonna do when they're gone. That I'll be alone. I'm okay with that. I'm GenX, being alone is heaven. But I hate that look the nurse gave me when I said that I didn't have anyone to pick me up post colonoscopy.

Someone should start a business called rent a friend just for things like having someone pick you up from a medical procedure.

In 1947, Alan Jay Lerner said it all.

From “Brigadoon:”

I used to have a hundred friends,

But when we are wedded, the friendship ends.

They never come to call,

So farewell to one an’ all.

Farewell to all the lads I knew:

I’ll see them again when they’re married too,

For soon, across the green,

I’ll go home with bonnie Jean.

And, for those more traditionally minded, there’s “The Babbit and the Bromide,” best presented by Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire, in MGM’s “The Ziegfeld Follies” (1945).

A definition of ongoing male friendship.

OP - it SHOULD be mutual, but it often isn't. That's just the way it is. If you miss a friend you have to keep it up, be the one who initiates. After awhile you can figure out if that friend doesn't want to see you. Or is just lazy and it really isn't anything about you or your friendship. That's just the way the world works. It's WORSE in some countries and better in others. USA and Brazil and Ireland and Tunisia and the Middle East - found it was very much a two-way street. Some European countries are much more insular and people keep to their friends from childhood and school!

Don't make friends with Mormons. I tried that once and it really was like the play where when something odd or conflicting pops up about them, they really to just flip it off like a light switch. Very compartmentalized people. For example the friend I had said he didn't want to date guys who did drugs but he himself was on 5 different pills for his mood. Said he was gay and independent politically, then found out he was totally a racist and later not surprised he became a Trumpeter. Said he was broke after his partner died, turned out he was a multi-millionaire and still complaining about "illegals" getting free healthcare while he had to wait. Said he hated California, and talked endlessly about Utah and yet he wouldn't leave.

I once had a friend who was resentful that I didn’t contact him more often, but he never contacted me. He was poor, so I wonder if he might have not been charged for incoming calls, because that would explain something. Otherwise, he became quite tedious and I started calling him less and less, until, never.

[quote]I once had a friend who was resentful that I didn’t contact him more often, but he never contacted me. He was poor, so I wonder if he might have not been charged for [calls.]

I have friends with eight figures in the bank who do this, so it's not always down to penury and the cost of incoming/outgoing calls. Some people rather enjoy scoring and re-scoring their friends' affections and don't mind playing the role of victim.

Those people soon write their own exit from the play. Tell them that you are moving across country or out of country and they never call until but wait for you to contact them and berate you with "I suppose you were busy." "Yes, I have been, but never too busy to answer the phone had you called. But look, here I am calling you now."

I used to live in another country and had friends I stayed in contact after I returned to the states. Meanwhile there were others I never heard from despite repeated attempts to maintain contact.

It never failed that when returning to visit, the people who I never heard from were the ones offended I wasn’t spending more time with them during the week or so I was back. Sorry, I’m spending it with people who bothered to stay in touch.

I think people are so busy and there is so little free time that people with spouses and kids just don’t have the ability to maintain friendships. This also has to do with life choices, as many are living vicariously through their children, watch sports all day or are consumed with some other personal activities that keep friendships from surviving.

I also agree a lot of girlfriends or wives are too possessive of their boyfriends or husbands. My take is that they think they should be sufficient as a friend, and any attempt to have other friendships that aren’t mutual or a part of their social circle of married friends is suspect and/or a threat to their influence/control.

I dealt with this situation with the boyfriend of my gay cousin who ran me off because it was clear he saw me as a threat to having my cousin under his complete control. It’s strange since we don’t even live in the same city, but it was clear how pathological he was in torpedoing any relationship with my cousin.

I think a lot of women directly or passive aggressively undermine their boyfriend or husband’s individual pre-relationship friendships, which ironically leads to a lot of divorces. Both men and women need their own own friendships, and occasional social time without their spouses. Trying to make your spouse responsible for every social role in your life is seriously unhealthy.

The death knell to a handful of my friendships were always a new relationship or having babies. Posters up-thread were 100% correct that the new girlfriend/wife of a straight male will often end his friendships completely and replace them with her friends and family. Perhaps the man's previous life threatens her or she just plans to insert him completely into her own circle and not compromise an inch. The flip side of the equation (straight female friends) has been about 50/50 in my experience. Female friends who find a "new man" either up the friend ante and invite me to far more than I have time to do or rather quickly detach until the friendship basically dies. I suppose it all depends upon whether they are running the show or their new man is - but anecdotally it seems more likely that some women have gay men in their lives and others do not (which would account for the difference between what has happened with my friendships with straight men verses women). With both men and women - kids are almost always a relationship "ender" it seems....that is until the kids are teens and suddenly the straight couple wants to "have fun" again. I have grown to expect it and plan accordingly (although the relationship change is honestly a mutual one usually). You will always find new friendships, so I stay fluid in that way and just enjoy people for who and what they are and go from there.

^ "was always either"

[quote]I think people are so busy and there is so little free time that people with spouses and kids just don’t have the ability to maintain friendships.

I question that so many people are so very busy, R51. People going to hospice every day to visit a dying loved one or people with new babies have inarguably good excuses, as good, say, as newly elected presidents not named Trump. Americans, though, seem to be expert at being busy at being busy. Each has his own short timer that starts when he runs into a friend or acquaintance and ticks down to the moment he averts his eyes for a split second and starts on a litany of things that must be done that will, sadly, mean he has to say goodbye the friend, "let's get together sometime!" — drop off the shoes for resoling, pick up a loaf of bread, drop the goldfish off at the vet, call the phone company about something wrong with the last bill, bake a Boston cream pie, clean behind the faucets with a Q-tip.... Americans will make excuses to do anything but see their friends whereas people in many other parts of the world, no less "busy" might react by grabbing their kid and heading immediately to a bar or cafe with their friend. Americans are particularly shit about maintaining friendships, not their two or three best friends so much as all the rest.

The real question is how do you make new friends now in the time of Coronavirus where everyone is 10 feet apart from one another and bars and other social clubs are shut down probably for the next year or more.

Interesting that gay men & straight women seem to have parallel experiences.

As a lesbian emerging from a long lonely depression I’m finding the opposite problem (or, was, until everything shut down and I’m sat home alone again...) - girls want to be very close to me way too quickly. Maybe it’s the mild autism talking but it’s really freaking me out.

Of course I’d like to find a girlfriend/wife and maybe even a ‘best friend’ at some point in the future, but it’s too much too soon and what I’m really looking for in my new attempt at a social life is a few casual buddies and friendly acquaintances.

Gay women are fantastic much of the time, but they really do need to learn to chill and just be a mate to other lesbians, like straight men do with each other.

I just moved to a new neighborhood and one of the neighbors had a birthday party yesterday and invited people on the street over. It was outside, but the people looked like they were a little too close so I decided not to go. I want to meet more of my new neighbors and make friends on the block, but I don't want to get Covid doing it.

R56 I get that. I find myself wary of people who are suddenly super friendly or put me on a pedestal. I always suspect they are using me to compensate for something else—fight with a best friend, suddenly single, falling out of love with partner, or because better social options aren’t available. I know that sounds cynical, but I’ve had too many experiences where that turned out to be true. If it is, you can go from being everything to nobody again very quickly.

I’m the one who initiates contact 99% of the time with all my friends. I’m sure I’d never hear from most of them ever again if I didn’t contact them.

I used to not think about it, but lately I have been. It makes me think that most of them don’t really care about me at all.

R54 I agree. I kind of alluded to it but didn’t make my point very well. People I know who claim they have no time for friends are usually overly involved with their children or engaged in some activity that consumes their time. They are making choices about their busyness. I even know some people who don’t believe in babysitters and won’t socialize if it doesn’t include their kids.

I see friendships among American adults usually involve incorporating them into their kids shared activities—or sport watching events where they invite friends over to watch a game they’d be watching anyway . Simply going out and socializing and enjoying the company and conversation or other adults doesn’t seem to be a big priority, so it makes sense that friendship is more superficial.

You make a good point R60. I remember growing up in the 80s and there were three kinds of parties: kids only, kids and parents, or adults only. Now it seems like every party has some kind of kid component. There is no such thing as an adult party anymore, or at least from what I've seen. Are there no babysitters anymore? And this is all coming from generation where out parents left us to raise ourselves for the most part. I don't get it.

Clearly not or I'd have zero friends.

I used to teach HS and we’d have a dept party at a colleague’s small home at the beginning and end of each school year. It was essentially a cocktail party, but invariably someone would show up with a bunch of small children. This not only changed the social dynamic, but made it miserable for both kids and adults, since invariably some kid ended up knocking something over, spilling, crying etc.

Finally we established that the beginning of the year party was adults only, so that adults could talk and drink freely without worrying about kids around. A few balked and said they “didn’t believe in babysitters”. However we stood our ground, and let them know we’d see them at the spring party which would be held in a place suitable to bring kids.

Why someone would think it ok to show up with kids to a cocktail party in a small home full of adults is beyond me.

R1 Wins!