Where would Merman's legacy be without "Gypsy"?

She has no legacy. She's a fat ugly loudmouth.

Good riddance.

My husband is going to be FURIOUS when he reads this thread - he loves LA MERM.

R1, I think you meant Ernest Borgnine, but I got it

She is still revered for her Annie in Annie Get Your Gun. I remember when Reba took over as the star in the revival there were some critics saying she was the best Annie since Merman.

OP, are you really so jaw-droppingly ignorant of musical theatre that you actually believe "Gypsy" constitutes the entirety of Ethel Merman's legacy? If you cared (which you obviously don't) to do a bit of research, you'd find that few, if any, musical theatre stars are on a par with La Merman.

R5, that wasn't the question. It was what would Merman be without "Gypsy". That show represents the largest chapter in her reputation. Without it, she would never have sung "Everything's Coming Up Roses" on everything from "Airplane" to Lucy to Reagan's inauguration. And that brought her greater frame and popularity.

Some of her singing in the 1930s and 40s is spectacular. I think her legacy was secure long before "Gypsy"...

I give up r6. You just don't get it.

Broadway, shmoadway, as long as people remember her disco album.

Too bad she died before completing her punk album.

Her version of The Clash's White Riot has to be heard to be believed.

Ethel [Zim]merman starred in the original Anything Goes, didn't she?

Ethel starred in the original 'Call Me Madam'.

Why did Fox try to turn Merman into a movie star immediately after MGM refused to consider her for 'Annie Get Your Gun'?

R6 isn't being ignorant, he's asking an interesting question: Erase the one big cultural touchstone in her career, "Everything's Coming Up Roses," and ask yourself what Merman's legacy would be without it?

I think that a big cultural touchstone is required to have a lasting legacy, but Merman would have had "No Business Like Show Business" and "You're the Top" from other musicals and didn't really NEED the Gypsy songs to secure a legacy.

Gypsy was just the feather in her cap m. She had a great career before it. The show has had a great history without her. It’s like asking who Sondheim would be if he hadn’t written Send in the Clowns. He would be pretty much the same.

Probably best known for being a henchman for Skeletor.

On par with Beast Man and Trap Jaw but not as seriously taken as Evil-Lyn.

Merm introduced “I’ve Got Rhythm” to the world. That was the song that made her a breakout star. That was her big cultural touchstone moment.

From Cole Porter she introduced “You’re the Top,” “It’s De-Lovely,” and “I Get a Kick Out of You.”

Annie Get Your Gun solidified her stardom forever. “There’s no business like show business“ became her song. She revived the show in 1966 to great acclaim.

Call me Madam was a huge hit and gave us “You’re Just in Love” and “The Hostess with the Mostes’ on the Ball.”

Happy Hunting in a way is her greatest display of star power. What would have been a sure fire flop for any other performer ran on Merman’s name alone. She was the Hugh Jackman/Julia Roberts/Denzel of her day.

Gypsy came about late in her career. It was the last role she ever created on Broadway. It didn’t win best musical at the Tonys and Merman herself lost to Mary Martin who created the role of Maria von Trapp that same season.

It’s weird that OP is talking about Merman in the 70’s and 80’s. Bette Davis was still a big name in 1970s, but no one would associate her with that decade. Merman is a star of the 30’s, 40’s and 50’s. After Gypsy she coasted on her reputation and ascended to camp icon status.

Airplane

While "Everything's Coming Up Roses" is a great song that she sang over and over, it is not her signature song. Her signature song was "There's No Business Like Show Business."

She'd never have gotten the chance to be in "Gypsy" if they hadn't fired Helen Lawson on the first day of rehearsals.

With all due respect, aside from theater aficionados, no one under fifty even knows who she is.

Gypsy is more associated with Rosalind Russell and Bette Midler (who did movie versions) as well as Patti Lupone who did the most recent production. Maybe Imelda Stauton who did the Europe one.

That 1960 Gypsy movie was hopeless. Skinny Roz, skinny daughter, wrong physique, wrong religious heritage. So fake.

Her heyday was before the 70s and 80s OP. And her career was mostly on the stage. She did not translate to film very well nor was her voice the kind to have a recording or nightclub career. She was a stage star- her voice was strident and suited for musical comedy. Think Liza Minnelli- great in person but not so great on record. As such she was not as great a star as Garland who was her contemporary.

Girl Crazy

Anything Goes

Red, Hot and Blue

Stars in Your Eyes

DuBarry Was a Lady

Panama Hattie

Something for the Boys

Annie Get Your Gun

Call Me Madam

Shows written for her by the Gershwin's Porter, Styne, and Berlin.

Introduced "I Got Rhythm,” “You’re the Top,” “I Get a Kick Out of You,” There’s No Business Like Show Business," "I Get a Kick Out of You,” “Blow Gabriel Blow, "Anything Goes," "Anything You Can Do," "Old-Fashioned Wedding," "Old-Fashioned Wedding" (in her return to the role in 1966!) and many others.

Charted with about 10 top-20 records during her careers.

Said to Loretta Young who wanted her to make a contribution to her "cursing" fund for saying "hell" on the TV set: "Loretta, how much will it cost me to tell you to go fuck yourself."

"It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World."

"The Ethel Merman Disco Album"

And of course ignorance at a time when film and vocal recordings are everywhere is used as a defense to shrug her off. Ignorance is not the basis of informed criticism or a "legacy." Twats.

Ethel was a star before microphones were invented. She didn't need a microphone.

I love this counterpoint.

He's sappy and twerpy; big Ethel is brassy and syncopated with a real swing!

R24, if that's your defense, it shows she's really a relic and nothing has held up the way Gypsy has.

r24, I really only know her from "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World." But I am not a big Broadway aficionado or historian. That film was legendary comedic gold among my family. "Sylvester .. Sylvester .. SYLVESTER!!!"

I loved her in Rudolph's and Frosty Christmas in July. Every time I see it I want to cry. I guess it's the kids still in me. It had pretty songs.

r24, Very well said, my friend. There was simply no one like her, and it's very unlikely that we will ever see her like again.

R30 Midler is just another Merman, isn't she?

Or does Midler have a wider range?

R21, maybe the larger straight world doesn’t know her, but I think most gay men do love and worship her. I mean, who hasn’t worn out their OBCR of Happy Hunting? Who hasn’t had arguments with their friends about whether 1944 Annie Get Your Gun is superior to the 1966 recording? Who hasn’t spliced together a “true OBCR” for Call Me Madam from the Dinah Shore version and the album Merman made for Decca?

I’m only 38, so hardly saw any of these shows live, but gay guys under 50 still obsess about her listen to her recordings religiously.

[quote] Midler is just another Merman, isn't she?

No one--including The Divine Miss M--is, was, or ever will be "just another" Merman. She was [italic]nonpareil[/italic], and your question, r31, will be considered by many a sacrilege toward both of these inimitable women. But I forgive you because in all probability all you know of La Merman is what you have read on DL.

[quote] Ignorance is not the basis of informed criticism or a "legacy"

And the cult of ignorance that is "nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge,'" to quote Isaac Asimov, flourishes.

R31 Midler is lucky in that she came along at a later date and has numerous films and recordings to preserve her legacy for future generations.

OP's question, and much of this thread, is just embarrassing. THIS is what gay culture has become? Heaven help us all.

Imagine if she was the original Mrs Lovett instead.

*shudder*

My dad would go into a seizure everytime she showed up on a variety show in the 70's. He hated her and I have to agree she is horrible. I can't believe she was a star. That voice, like nails on a chalkboard.

Remember that she was selling songs un-miced. She stood there and projected.

I get that her voice isn't for everyone but by many accounts when seen live she was electric.

She must have been doing something right because shows were written FOR her.

r5, you just made the "Mary!"ometer explode.

r26 Fuck you.

[quote] [R24], if that's your defense, it shows she's really a relic and nothing has held up the way Gypsy has.

"Annie Get Your Gun" and "Anything Goes" are not enduring? There's no point at all arguing with you if you somehow believe something that stupid.

Neither Merman or Martin succeeded in film because of their inability to photograph well.

The Merm's guest appearance on That Girl will never be forgotten.

And she was a panel member on Match Game 75 when dreamy contestant/gym teacher Ron Valenti played.

This debate needs some mimosas and drinks flung in faces.

r5, Now, now. Calm down and breathe through your nose. Everything's going to be fine.

The reply to r5 was meant for r40. The after-shock from the "Mary!"ometer explosion disoriented me. Don't worry, I'll be fine if someone would be kind enough to peel me a grape and get me a glass of champagne.

OP , HELLO DOLLY was written for THE MERM , NOT CHANNING. OP , WAS IYT WRITTEN FOR YOU ?

When The Merm finally went into Hello, Dolly! to close the show, IT. WAS. THE. HOTTEST. TICKET. IN. NEW. YORK. CITY.

Not a fan but she actually looks pretty and sounds decent in this one.

Everyone on this thread.

How unkind, r51. We've all said such nice things about you.

Without GYPSY, she would have finished her fabled stage career with a HAPPY HUNTING and the Lincoln Center "GRANNY GET YOUR GUN."

So, yes. Of course. Her legacy would be roughly equivalent to Lilian Roth's legacy. Without GYPSY.

When Merman took over Hello, Dolly, you couldn't beg, borrow or steal a ticket. Scalpers were getting hundreds of dollars for good orchestra seats. And this was decades before Hamilton.

R53, She closed Hello, Dolly! in 1970.

R49, Another hot Broadway ticket was when Ethel and Mary Martin appeared together for one night only in May of 1977.

Tickets were so scarce, stars like Lauren Bacall were on a standby list.

Ethel wanted it recorded for television, but an apprehensive Mary said no.

Merman originally signed on for 3 months in Dolly. Her reviews, box office and extravagant audience response caused her to re-sign for for an additional 3 months. I didn't see her in it but knew many people who did and they all described it as Musical Comedy Heaven.

I love that I can always turn to Datalounge to get the important questions answered.

Seeing Merman in "Dolly!" was heaven, but truth be told, her nine-month run was on "twofers" much of the time. Merman was responsible for a big surge in business when she opened at the end of March 1970, but there was no way around the fact that the New York production was running out of steam no matter who was starring, and business slowed down by summer '70. Still, "Dolly!" broke the record for all-time longest-running musical during Merman's run, and Merman had a lot to do with keeping it open to the end of the year.

David Merrick was very cunning, as we all know. The film of Hello, Dolly! sat on the shelf for months because Merrick had inserted a clause into the film rights contract that said the film could not be released until the Broadway run was over. At the time, everyone assumed that the Broadway run was on its last legs -- but it kept running. Fox finally paid an extra million dollars to Merrick and the other creatives to get the film released.

Meanwhile, the New York collage of black and white photos in Butch Cassidy was originally supposed to be a full color sequence of Redford, Newman and Ross running around the 14th Street sets built for Dolly. That film was being held up because Fox didn't want those sets to appear before Dolly. So director George Roy Hill turned it into the black and white collage to get his film released.

Nobody's going to mention the "talking dog" thing?

[quote]The Merm's guest appearance on That Girl will never be forgotten.

IIRC, she was in two episodes. And I assume she was on the show due to her connection with Lew Parker (Ann's father.) They were both in the OBC of "Girl Crazy," in which Ethel introduced "Embraceable You" and "I Got Rhythm."

"Annie Get Your Gun" and "Anything Goes" have been revived more and played more than "Gypsy" ever will.

Gypsy is a much harder show to properly cast and stage than either AGYG or Anything Goes. So of course the latter two shows will be done more often.

[quote]Where would Merman's legacy be without "Gypsy"?

In the terlet.

Yes what R64 said. And it is that way because it was written for Merman!!

R32 - if that’s a deadpan troll post bravo! I honestly can’t tell if you’re serious or not. I’m 20 years your senior, went to a University with a renowned theater program that was chock full ‘o gays and even in the early 80s she was thought if as weird relic and a bit of a joke - not that we were necessarily correct but the SCTV gag of her bellowing “Silent Night” and shattering all the bulbs & balls on the tree was pretty much how we saw her.

Is R32 a Lavender Scare re-enactor or something?

[quote]and even in the early 80s she was thought if as weird relic and a bit of a joke

The opinions of 20 year olds don't mean much.

Merman was always kind of a caricature of herself. She was in on the joke.

People understood her place in theatre history.

SNL, too, R67, also during the early Eighties.

Then-cast member and (now) Broadway diva Christine Ebersole played a starlet, trying to impress producer Jim Belushi wiith the fact that she did "the best Ethel Merman" imitation.

The joke was that Belushi then ordered the other singing-acting hopefuls, set designers, crew members et.al. to individually do THEIR impressions of The Merm singing "There's No Business Like Show Business." Which everyone did at full volume and, of course, totally over-the-top.

Doesn't translate all that well into print, like here. Still, a pretty hilarious send-up.

Christine Ebersole would have loved to have had even a fraction of Ethel Merman's career.

I did say we weren’t necessarily correct R69. But you can also understand a performer’s place in history and not actually like their work, or even quite “get” why they were so popular in their day.

Al Jolson was a huge star, but his performances in The Jazz Singer (ignore the blackface number, I’m talking about the rest of them) seem incredibly off putting and weird - he has the strangest energy and presence. On the other hand The Andrews Sisters appearances in those old Abbot & Costello films are still charming - you can easily see why people loved them at the time. It’s interesting how some performances age like wine, others like bananas.

Few people in this thread have any historical context or appreciation.

Bette and Patti have done more recent, near definitive versions of Gypsy. Midler's is probably as good as you're going to get it on screen, she was THAT phenomenal.

Broadway stars don't tend to have legs unless they make it in another medium. That's why Angela Lansbury is an iconic and will remain one for quite some time. Murder She Wrote and Beauty and the Beast have solidified her reputation to the public. Julie Andrews has two iconic movies. Carol Channing glued herself to Dolly.

[quote] Murder She Wrote and Beauty and the Beast have solidified her reputation to the public.

For some members of the public, yes. For others, there were [italic]Gaslight[/italic] and [italic]The Manchurian Candidate[/italic].

[quote]Nobody's going to mention the "talking dog" thing?

Don't call her that! She was a handsome woman!

NO one ever topped this in BALLS and RAGE.

Merman had a surprisingly long run in 1930s film musicals, from a series of 10 Paramount musical shorts filmed in Astoria( including two Betty Boop Max Fleischer follow-the-bouncing-ball cartoons) to eight Hollywood features at Paramount, Goldwyn and Fox , supporting Bing Crosby, Eddie Cantor, Alice Faye, Sonja Henie, Don Ameche and The Ritz Brothers. She recreated her role as Reno Sweeney in ANYTHING GOES (1934) and was one of the first stars to appear in three-strip Technicolor in the Ice-Cream factory finale of Cantor's KID MILLIONS (1934). It's fun to see her frisky with slap-stick hijinks and she had wonderful chemistry with Cantor especially, but she did not register with movie audiences, even in one of the great musical numbers of the period from STRIKE ME PINK (1936) , by Harold Arlen and Lew Brown and staged by Robert Alton:

My grandmother's maiden name was Zimmerman and I've always wondered whether we were distantly related. Grandma wasn't from Pennsylvania but her ancestry was Pennsylvania Dutch.

Well, this is a treat! I've been waiting for this rare peppy number by Samuel Pokrass and Jack Yellen from HAPPY LANDING (1938) to show up on YouTube for years - and it's finally here!

Some of you may find this clip of La Merman singing her signature song to the Muppets charming, as I do, from its almost wistful beginning to its rafters-shaking climax. That charm will escape some of you, of course, but then, I do hold the distinction of making the "Mary!"ometer explode. Fair warning.

Here's the link that should have accompanied r81. I'm still a bit rattled from the explosion.

I prefer her talking laxatives with Tyrone Power in [italic] Alexander's Ragtime Band [/italic].

Maybe the third time will be a charm.

Hey, it was Sondheim, not me, R76!

[quote] They were both in the OBC of "Girl Crazy," in which Ethel introduced "Embraceable You" and "I Got Rhythm."

I BEG your pardon?

We have now reached gay-con 1. This forum will now self destruct. Have a nice day!

Merman originally sung Some People. She also sung Anything Goes originally.

When will your faves?

Bye!

Merman sang I Got Rhythm in the original Girl Crazy and held a high note for 32 bars over the melody as the orchestra played. Gershwin approached after opening night and told her never to take voice lessons.

Bette was awful in Gypsy. She's pretty decent in the musical comedy sections, but when she has to bring it down a bit and get serious, she's community theatre level at best. I'm not old enough to have seen Merman live, but even the audio recordings of her in the role, you can tell she played Rose with more nuance that Midler and that's really saying something since Merman wasn't known for nuance.

Gypsy lasted for as long as it did because of Merman's involvement, but it was still a bitter pill to take in the late 50's/early 60's and marked a major change in the Broadway musical. Shows were now less about kick lines and chorus girls and more about deeper, more adult issues and characters. Merman might have originated the role, but it speaks wonders of the libretto, music, and lyrics that so many talented women have stepped up to the plate and made the role their own in the years since.

Besides a handful of songs like "Everything's Coming Up Roses" and "Let Me Entertain You", Gypsy wasn't a huge hit with audiences. What it had to say still hits too close to home for a lot of people who just want an evening of frivolous fun. It's the main reason the show has never really been a huge hit even in revivals. It's probably one of the darker musicals there is. It's always been more of a critical darling than an audience pleaser.

Nick Cordero has died. Sorry I can't announce this in the appropriate thread but I was paywalled out.

R77:

I dibs "BALLS and RAGE" as the new name of my rock band!

She's a thrill. The fucking band is bowing to her. Nobody does it better. Wayward vibrato Merman was dead before I was walking, but Patti LuPone is the NUTS.

Merman was not a sell out in Dolly. Maybe opening and closing but by then the world had had it with Dolly. Even the film had ended its run from roadshow to general release in the interim. And people then had probably had seen Merman a number of times including The Annie Get Your Gun of just a few years before.

Danny Lockin who played Barnaby with EVERY major Dolly said Merman was the only Dolly who never engaged with any other actor.

It is my major regret of a show I could have seen but didn't. I remember passing in front of the St James and looking at the photos but wanted to see newer musicals like Promises and Company and Applause. I was an idiot.

[quote]Bette was awful in Gypsy. She's pretty decent in the musical comedy sections, but when she has to bring it down a bit and get serious, she's community theatre level at best.

Bette, Patty...they were all awful. All too studied. Too much psychoanalyzing of the role.

The impression I get from Merman on the cast album is that she's so uncomplicated, simple and unaware and that's what makes it powerful and scary.

Ridiculous. Patti Lupone will never be matched as Rose. EVER. No one sings like that. She's a vocal volcano. Ethel who?

Merm was always fab, her Dolly was fab, the rest of you shut up.

And Nick Cordero is dead.

[quote]Patti Lupone will never be matched as Rose.

Lupin sounds like she has a mouthful of mashed potatoes in her mouth compared to Merman.

Lupone

RIP, Nick. And Amanda.

Dear R90, what do you mean that 'Gypsy' said things that 'still hits too close to home'?

(I've only seen parts of the Roz Russel movie which I don't much like because of that skinny little Natalie Wood)

[quote] Dear [R90], what do you mean that 'Gypsy' said things that 'still hits too close to home'?

I'm not R90 but here are a couple:

Rose is an abusive mother. Not physically, but psychologically. She doesn't allow them to enjoy their childhoods, she forces them into a life of seedy hotels, permanent impermanence, and near-poverty, all the while forcing them to put on big, fake smiles for the audience. Like every stage mother, she's forcing them to live her dream, not theirs. On a broader level, it forces the audience to think for a minute about all the child stars they've loved (Shirley Temple, Deanna Durbin, Jackie Coogan, Judy, of course) and wonder what horrors were behind the carefully managed images put forth by the studios.

Your parents become your children. When Louise becomes a star, Rose bemoans the fact that she has nothing to do. (Louise suggests an acting school for children which is rather horrifying as we know Rose wasn't exactly a talented director). What do you do with your parents when you grow up, have your own life, and yearn for independence and they still see you as a needy 10 year old?

And for the parents, the message is: you sacrifice everything for your kids and their either leave you (June) or kick you to the curb (Louise)

What? No love for Bernadette Peters' turn as Rose?

Was it really that bad?

Very spotty previews and early performances for Bernadette, she was seriously ill. But by the end of the run she was sensational, as her Rose's Turn on the Tonys showed.

I saw it halfway through the run. Peters was great, especially in retrospect for those of us who survived LuPone literally clawing at the scenery. That production had other merits: Boyd Gaines was charming, Benanti was excellent, and having a straight Tulsa was extremely novel.

Glenn Close never did GYPSY?

Gypsy...wait'll they get a load of me!

Listen to Bernadette at R104 and then listen to Merman take the number by the balls.

Note that Merman makes the number triumphant. She's NOT sorry for herself.. No self pity. She's going to show them. Merman' s Rose is very very pleased with herself.

The other gals who have done the role just don't get it.

r102, You couldn't have explained any better. Thank you.

Yes, Gypsy is a difficult musical for many to digest, because the first half is more or less sort of bouncy and fun and then the second act comes and it slowly transitions into something much darker and more dramatic and really throws people for a loop. If you have a good Rose, you spend most of act 1 sort of admiring and loving her for her tenacity and sense of humor, but once she reveals her true intentions at the end of act 1, things change and you see that Rose is a very damaged and complicated woman.

Merman got it right by actually making the audience fall in love with her in act 1. She played the comedy to the hilt, getting laughs on lines no other Rose ever has. They went on the journey with her. Because Merman wasn't known as a world class actress at the time, she was directed to just do her thing - be loud, bubbly, and energetic. She didn't have to read too much into the role and just threw away a lot of the big lines that so many other actresses will psychoanalyze to death, robbing them of their potency. She didn't overthink the role, which made her scarier and more pathetic. This was a Rose who really believed she'd get her "turn."

The only one who came close to matching her was Tyne Daly of all people. She didn't have the volcanic vocal chops, but she knew how Rose was to be played. So many other Roses start off the show as cold, bitter, angry, and generally disagreeable and with nothing to lose. She's already a loser. You need a Rose you can root for in some way.

There's this newfangled idea that, because we know how much damage people like Rose cause the people that come into contact with them, we must make sure that everyone knows they're a monster, so you take away all their good qualities like their charm. Many productions have tried to do this in recent years so that, I suppose, no one gets the idea that they're supporting Rose's actions, but it just ends up making for an incredibly dull evening.

Bravo!

R110, you seem to be bashing straw Roses. Bernadette Peters certainly didn’t make Rose a monster and, much as I loathed the performance, Patti LuPone didn’t judge the character in the way you suggest. Who exactly are you talking about? Imelda Staunton?

R101 Great post. Nail on the head.

OOPS sorry, my post at R113 is for R110

R112, I'm not bashing any Roses. I thought Peters and LuPone were quite effective in their own ways and played Rose with some good humor and humanity. Staunton...not so much. Betty Buckley and Tovah Feldshuh were others who didn't understand that Rose had charm and humor.

I felt similarly about Sam Rockwell (and the show's) take on Bob Fosse in Fosse/Verdon. They drained Fosse of all his charm and humor in order to let us know that we're supposed to always be on Verdon's side and it ended up making you wonder why Verdon (or anyone for that matter) would stick around for so long with a guy like that. I know these creators think they're being edgy and realistic, but they're forgetting that what draws people to people like this is that they usually have some sort of charm, humor, sexiness, or talent that ropes them in and makes them stay. If they were all bad days, who'd stick around?

Am I the only one who thought the Imelda Staunton thing was horribly misconceived? (And very poorly recorded for the DVD)

You're most definitely not R117. It's pretty much universally hated in any theatre thread due to Staunton's never-ending braying. Some people who saw it live or heard audience recordings swears she was better in the theater and I hope they're right, because that recording did her no favors. I do find her "Rose's Turn" very effective, but it would have been more effective if she hadn't been ready to launch into that song at the start of the show. Once again, it makes you wonder why anyone would stick around Rose for so long when she's such a shrill harridan without any charm or sex appeal.

Braying? See Ethel Merman. She had volume and not bad pitch, but her vocal tone was ugly and blaring and her grotesque vibrato would not even get her into an audition today. This idea that she even knew what a performance was is crazy. I've looked her up. What the fuck is that? Times change. Plymouth Rock.

I know Datalounge is old and cold and weird. But Ethel Merman is not relevant to anyone. She's on par with Al Jolson and a step below Garland vocally. That kind of singing is no longer celebrated. Antiquated beyond understanding.

r119 Sigh. Kids today.

R119 Caruso and Melba may be equally antiquated but I admire singers who actually know how to sing.

People who rely on synthetic electronic voice amplification are merely breathy crooners and shouldn't be judged against REAL singers..

I'm 37 and a professional singer and musician R120. Trained at the Royal Conservatory. But a kid yes, compared to this crowd. Ethel Merman was ridiculous. She didn't know how to sing. She could sing loud. But she couldn't technically, actually sing well. She was cute though for a bulldozer. Kind of gross.

Any trained singer with a vocal gift can sing without being breathy R121. Until they want to be. Luther Vandross talked about putting more "air" in his vocals all the time. To add texture to his overly rich resonant tone. You don't know anything about the technique of vocal production. Neither did Ethel.

Didn't Lupone's version end with her dramatically reaching out to touch the lights as the Rose sign came down? I remember someone posting on here that it was the most shameless grab at a Tony he had witnessed on a Broadway stage.

There are several whom I wished would have done it. Lauren Bacall (not a great singer, but would have been a fascinating choice) Bonnie Franklin (you can't help but think of how she would have done it. There's some Rose in Ann Romano)

The audio recording of Merman in "Hello Dolly!" that has snuck out there (songs AND book) is phenomenal, and Merman really seems to be having a great time even if she is planning her grocery list as she puts on her Sunday clothes. The excitement does come out of the fact that it is closing night, but even though it is only audio, magic oozes out of those sounds. I'm not genuinely crazy about the two songs Jerry wrote with her in mind, but having seen Dorothy Lamour as a kid as Dolly, then later Carol, Bette, Donna and Bernadette, I just feel that Merman, even as a 60 something year old Dolly, was spectacular!

Yes, Patti's production had a slightly different, much more bleak ending where Louise laughs at Rose's new dream about them together on the poster for Minsky's and walks away, leaving Rose alone as the Rose sign from the last number lights up again. She reaches for it as, one by one, the bulbs fade out.

Needless to say, it was a bit much, but I did like that it wasn't the usual happy ending where it seems like Louise has forgiven Rose for everything and they walk off into the sunset together. Laurents was always tweaking the show.

Lansbury was the one who added the heart to the show and people cried when Herbie left. Lansbury added the bow during the finish of Rose's Turn as well as the look back as she was leaving the stage.

[quote] She didn't know how to sing. She could sing loud. But she couldn't technically, actually sing well. She was cute though for a bulldozer. Kind of gross.

Merman made her debut in 1930 when Broadway singers were not amplified. Audiences needed to hear the songs and the lyrics. Her job was to put across a song. Crooners like Bing Crosby and warm contraltos like Alice Faye were fine for the movies and radio, but Merman's milieu was the Broadway stage of the 1930s-1970s, and to judge her by contemporary standards is ridiculous.

[quote] Gypsy is more associated with Rosalind Russell and Bette Midler

[quote]Merman's milieu was the Broadway stage of the 1930s-1970s, and to judge her by contemporary standards is ridiculous.

Then don't R127. She's unlistenable. A grotesque sound when she *sings*

[quote]But she couldn't technically, actually sing well.

You understand nothing about the theatre. Singing "well " is not necessarily a requirement.

B'way musicals are not opera.

R122 You sound like you now what you're talking about!

Do you mean the The Royal Conservatory of Music in Toronto?

Was she the fat lady in Poseidon Adventure?

[quote]But she couldn't technically, actually sing well.

You're quite stupid.

Cole Porter, The Gershwins, Jerry Herman, Irving Berlin, Sondheim etc.....in other words, men considered among the greatest songwriters for the theatre of all time, felt otherwise.

Tell us, oh genius, why they wasted their immense talents on the Merman if she couldn't sing "well".

R132 She wasn't fat in 'Call me Madam'. She wore a Dior A-Line dress.

[quote] Tell us, oh genius, why they wasted their immense talents on the Merman if she couldn't sing "well".

Lord. If the virus doesn’t get ‘em the umbrage will. Calm down, dear.

[quote]Lord. If the virus doesn’t get ‘em the umbrage will. Calm down, dear.

Typical kind of answer from someone with no good argument.

Don't worry, OP. Ethel Merman's legacy in theater history is secure, even with the carping of know-nothings and idiots.

Forgive me for not having a good argument about a fat caterwauling tuba who’s been dead for 50 fucking years, yah sad old pipe organ.

Let me put it into a paraphrase you might understand: Clairee, you’re making a fool of yourself. Nobody cares about this Merman shit.

[quote]Let me put it into a paraphrase you might understand: Clairee, you’re making a fool of yourself. Nobody cares about this Merman shit.

And yet we're 139 posts into this thread...and you're still here.

I just arrived, granny. Here all week. Try the veal. It’s purée for you folks.

[quote]you’re making a fool of yourself. Nobody cares about this Merman shit.

And he's STILL here. LOL.

For the real “theatre crowd”...Annie Get Your Gun is more what Ethel is revered for. “There’s No Business Like Show Business” is her signature song

Melodious.

She was a great favorite of Toscanini. Seriously.

Long lost recoding of her singing California,here I come!

At least Ethel made a few decent movie appearances.

Poor Mary Martin's was awful. (She just did the one, didn't she?)

Ah, she tried some sensitivity. And she had an instrument. Just not great for singing. You could drive a truck through, turn around and come back in the middle of her vibrato. Sail Away Ethel.

[quote]Caruso and Melba may be equally antiquated but I admire singers who actually know how to sing.

Thanks for the shout-out!

[quote] See Ethel Merman. She had volume and not bad pitch, but her vocal tone was ugly and blaring and her grotesque vibrato would not even get her into an audition today.

Can you imagine a young Ethel showing up at the "American Idol" tryouts?

Ethel was in on the jokes.

And again...in on the jokes.

"All you have to do is sing loud and sound nasal"

[q]But she couldn't technically, actually sing well.[q]

And as you undoubtedly know, r133, Gershwin himself told her never to take a singing lesson because it would ruin her voice.

People complain about the melisma of today's singers but I always hated those half notes Merman did. She ruined "You'll Never Get Away from Me" with it. "But a little thing like th-aa-at, couldn't stop me no-eowwww:

How sad does your life have to be to assume the name Iowa Johnny?

R154 I like Iowa Johnny. We've had a few interesting conversations.

[quote]Midler is just another Merman, isn't she?

Not really. Midler stole her entire persona from Sophie Tucker. Merman never would have told crude jokes onstage (offstage was another matter). Merman was an original, coming to Broadway at a time when audiences wanted brassy voices. Both were brassy, but for different reasons.

R154: "Everybody has to feel superior to somebody, but it's customary to present a little proof before you take the privilege." Truman Capote

Merman's big appeal was that no matter how far above the title her name was, she was still the shop girl from Macy's.

Thank you r155. Water seeks its own level.

Ethel Merman was not happy when they didn't choose her to be in West Side Story. She can get a bit pouty when denied a role.

r146 After making a splash as a sexy ingenue in a Cole Porter show on Broadway in the 30s, Mary Martin spent about 8 years in Hollywood, appearing in about a dozen mediocre movies, mostly musicals. She didn't have the right physical look for the screen, so she returned full-time to Broadway in the 40s and became a superstar with South Pacific, The Sound of Music, Peter Pan and other hits. She continue to appear on the stage even while doing movies, dividing her time between Hollywood and New York until she moved full-time to a Brazilian ranch with her equally gay husband/manager. It was one of the most successful "lavender" marriages in show biz.

[quote]People complain about the melisma of today's singers but I always hated those half notes Merman did. She ruined "You'll Never Get Away from Me" with it. "But a little thing like th-aa-at, couldn't stop me no-eowwww:

I always thought those flourishes of hers were a vaudeville 1920/30s thing. That way of selling a song the way Jolson and others did.

Merman came to Broadway at exactly the right time. Lillian Roth had a very similar belting voice, but she left Broadway for Hollywood in the late 1920s, Merman (who had a stronger voice) took advantage of Roth's absence.

Merman starred in TAKE A CHANCE on Broadway in 1932 and introduced "Eadie Was a Lady". Roth took Merman's role in the Hollywood version of the show and sang her songs. Roth's "Eadie Was A Lady" is so close to Merman's you'd almost think Merman dubbed her..

A DL legend appears briefly at 3:01

Merman's voice was ugly. She had good diction and projection, superior pitch and resonance. Blaring with zero artistry. Songwriters liked her back in that hammy time on Broadway. It's not what people want to hear anymore, even on a cast album. Her voice is far too unattractive. OUCH.

[quote]She had good diction

Not really. Her Queens accent comes through in everything she does.

Surabaya Iowa Johnny and Rhode Island Simon.

I like Merman because, like her, I'm loud. I did a community theater musical where they had to mike everyone else up, so they could be heard. I didn't have a mike and still people said they heard me over the rest.

[quote]I'm 37 and a professional singer and musician [R120]. Trained at the Royal Conservatory. o

Me too. I spent three years at the Sheboygan Conservatory of Music.

Do you wear one of those suits with buttons all over it when you perform? Like the cartoon blokes in Mary Poppins?

With what we know now, here is a typical Ethel Merman performance:

You'll never get away from me.

I'm gonna have to get some eggs and bacon

You can climb the tallest tree.

And Little Ethel wants some Coca-Cola. Christ, she's as fat as a cow already.

I'll be there somehow.

Might as well get me a little Jack Daniels to go with the Coca-Cola.

True, you could say, "Hey, here's your hat."

I gotta try Joan Crawford's meatloaf recipe. Who knew that bitch could cook?

But a little thing like that

And what's meatloaf without potatoes? Check!

Couldn't stop me now.

And some chocolate ice cream for dessert. Geez, Jack's eyes are bloodshot. I wonder if he's not sleeping or if he's boozing?

You're lying R167. Either everyone is miked or no one. And the most beautiful voices in the world use microphones for about 90 years now.

Not at the Met. Or so they claim.

Gypsy has moments in the first act that more than hint at darker times to come -- like her fit in Grantziger's office, her casual shrugging off of Louise and, of course, the entire last scene of Act One and "Everything's Coming Up Roses." She basically tells her father to go to hell in "Some People."

It just has to be balanced with her charming determination and the funny bits. Ideally there should be this shift by the end of Act One where the audience realizes this woman is not right. That way the blow ups in Act Two are more than earned.

R170 That might be true in legitimate theater. But, I know I didn't wear a mike and the rest of the cast did. It was the same as a child and teenager in church, other soloists used mikes but I never did.

Seems like a good time for this...

I’ll add this.

Gayest thread title ever.

r166, The title of your post has me completely bewildered. I'm aware of the song [italic]Surabaya Johnny[/italic]; R155, Rhode Island Simon, is known to me only as an obviously intelligent fellow DLer; and [italic]This is All I Ask[/italic] is a beautifully written song that reminds us that the best things in life are not "things." I just can't figure out how all these seemingly disparate things relate to each other. Why you have attached "Surabaya" to my given name (Johnny) is especially perplexing to me since it is hardly complimentary and seems to have been pulled out of thin air (if I were unkind, I would say out of your ass). I'm afraid my curiosity doesn't extend to asking for an explanation. But thanks for the link. [italic]This is All I Ask[/italic] has long been a favorite of mine, and as I've noted elsewhere, r40 has kindly informed me that I have already made the "Mary!"ometer explode, I can add that I enjoy La Merman's rendition. So thanks for that.

[quote]R24 Girl Crazy / Anything Goes / Red, Hot and Blue / Stars in Your Eyes / DuBarry Was a Lady / Panama Hattie/ Something for the Boys / Annie Get Your Gun / Call Me Madam

The problem is, only two of those shows are revived much. GYPSY was by far the most solid of the shows she did.

[quote]R30 There was simply no one like her, and it's very unlikely that we will ever see her like again.

And thank the good lord for that! She was a big, braying bore! (And A DOG, to boot.)

r174, Thank you. This hit the spot.

[quote] There was simply no one like her, and it's very unlikely that we will ever see her like again.

[quoteAnd thank the good lord for that! She was a big, braying bore! (And A DOG, to boot.)

Well, we still have Patti LuPone.

What I wanna know is, Why did the Merm’s career go straight down the shitter?

She had a pretty great career for someone who couldn't really sing.

She’s a bit terrifying. And totally uncouth.

I wonder what the real artists from her era ever found to talk about with her. Probably they just slammed back a bunch of drinks.

Mitzi Gaynor reportedly loved her. Enough said.

Good question R184. Pity that George and Ira Gershwin, Cole Porter, and Irving Berlin are no longer alive or we could ask them.

She just had an incredible lack of artistry. Her apartment was in Architectural Digest once, and it’s monotonously conventional. She told the decorator, “I want a chair that looks like a chair.”

That was about her level - -

r186, what in the world does her taste in home furnishings have to do with this thread?

Probably, r182, because Her apartment was in Architectural Digest once, and it’s monotonously conventional, according to r186.

I guess you don’t see how the aspects of one’s life are interconnected.

^^ was in reply to

[quote]187 what in the world does her taste in home furnishings have to do with this thread?

Marilyn Monroe's co-star.

R177. I bet Kurt Weill never went to Surabaya which is an ugly, industrial port at the eastern end of Java. But he wrote the song 'Surabaya Johnny' which seems to be all about love gone wrong.

[quote] For the real “theatre crowd”...Annie Get Your Gun is more what Ethel is revered for. “There’s No Business Like Show Business” is her signature song

And yet it wasn't written for her. The song is sung by Bill Cody, Charlie Davenport, and Frank Butler when they try to convince Annie to join the Wild West Show.

As the story goes (possibly apocryphal) Merman heard the song and instantly wanted in, so Berlin wrote 'There's no business like show business, if you tell me it's so', for her, but aside from that, and repeating 'There's no people like show people, they smile when they are low'. and joining in on the final refrain, it's not her song at all. In fact, on the 1946 OCR the number is sung entirely by the chorus.

If Merman is remembered for 'There's No Business Like Show Business' it's because of the 1954 movie of the same name, and because she sang it at every opportunity for the rest of her career, not necessarily from ANNIE GET YOUR GUN.

OP is an idiot. Yes, Gypsy was huge for her, and contained what became one of her signature songs. However, before Gypsy she had many other songs she was associated with, not the least of which was There's No Business Like Show Business by Irving Berlin, and any number of songs by George Gershwin or Cole Porter. She's the biggest star in the history of Broadway, and would be even if Gypsy never existed.

OP is tiresome and ignorant.

I think a large part of why Merman is so widely remembered for GYPSY is the stellar quality of the original cast recording. Goddard Lieberson produced some of the most successful (both artistically and commercially) cast albums during the period between 1944 and 1975, and GYPSY must be placed at the very top of the list.

People who would never have the opportunity to see Merman on stage would have had to listen to her on records and the there were really no recordings of her early shows (save for a few hit songs). The marginal quality of her early OCRs, such as ANNIE GET YOUR GUN, HAPPY HUNTING, and CALL ME MADAM (not even an original cast recording) became instantly obsolete once stereophonic equipment started showing up in people's homes. The overture alone was worth the price of the album, and to hear Merman sing 'Everything's Comin' Up Roses' in high fidelity was a thrill most people were unused to.

Enrico Caruso was incredibly popular but to hear a recording of him today, it sounds like it was recorded with two tin cans and a string. Yet 61 years after it was recorded, the OCR of GYPSY is still regarded by many as the definitive recording of that show. It won the Grammy for Best Cast Album in 1959. It was so popular that the original 'white' cover was reissued with the more familiar cover featuring photos of the original production.

Every little gayling who stayed indoors listening to his parents' Broadway records rather than joining the neighborhood boys playing football in the street owes a debt of gratitude to Goddard Lieberson for the wealth of glorious recordings he left us.

Other than the bland but handsome Fernando Lamas, "Happy Hunting" is a memorable cast album. I love "Mr. Livingston" (a very funny song), "New Fangled Tango" and "Mutual Admiration Society", as well as her big entrance "Gee But It's Good to Be Here!" I have the original souvenir program (along with two different "Annie Get Your Gun's", two "Call Me Madam's", "Gypsy" and "Dolly", I know, "Hello, Mary!"). and they are prized possessions.

How large was Ethel’s cock?

She told me to fuck off.

R198: ?

It's an oft told story, r199. Benay was in Ethel's dressing room after a show waiting for her to get ready for them to go out. Ethel had on a turban and she was meticulously doing spit curls poking out around the turban. Benay got impatient and said "Ethel, you don't wear spit curls with a turban." Ethel retorted "Fuck off, Benay, I need the softness."

r196 Please get help.

Had it not been for Gypsy, she could have not created her most memorable moment ever.

R200: This is new to me and, now, unforgettable. Many thanks!

r192 (Are you Simon or Rhode Island Simon?) Thank you for your reply. I'm going to impose upon your good nature (I just feel you have one) and ask for any further illumination you might provide. I'm familiar with Weill and [italic]Surabaya Johnny[/italic] (Lotte Lenya's rendition is sublime) and I know that the song is about unrequited love (not at all sure what that has to do with you and me, though). I'm probably taking offense where none was intended, but the Surabaya Johnny of the song was worse than a scoundrel, but perhaps R166 couldn't think of another song about unrequited love with "Johnny" in the title. But none of this gives me any clue as to what any of this have to do with the song he appended [italic]This is all I Ask[/italic]. Have you any idea? I suppose this is a question I should ask R166, but he's confused me so much already, but is the title of his reply supposed to imply that you and I are in love, and if so, which of us is unrequited? Oh, dear, now's when a nice, cold glass of champagne is the only thing that's going to offer me any solace in my puzzlement.

R204. It meant piss off Iowa Johnny. Surabaya you queeny old bore. What's not to understand?

I posted All I Ask because I am a musician and singer and THAT is a beautiful song. Merman didn't sing it great, but the warbly old bitch tried.

How about Megan's?

Uh oh, it sounds like you need more than a glass of champagne, r205. What on earth have I done to put you into such a snit? No, never mind. I don't want to engage with name-callers. Have a nice day.

R206, Haven't heard her before. Lovely.

Then shut the fuck up about it. Johnny from Iowa. Your name's not cute either. Men drink whiskey. Cheers.

Haven't heard her version...or at all, r208?

Dear Johnny R204 please ignore that silly man.

People who are artistic (or pretend to be artistic) get over-enthusiastic and silly.

(And Kurt Weill and Brecht never went to Surabaya nor Burma or Alabama or Alaska)

There are more than just a few people on this threat who should be haunted by the ghost of Merman singing all of her hits loudly in their ear so they never sleep again.

And old theatre queens who verbally castrate real men with words but object to "bad language" and speak about drinking champagne while living in a haze of booze and regret R211. Are y'all cultured? Iowa Johnny ain't drinking champagne. He's just an old drunk white fag from some small town who imagines himself to be witty. Johnny is creepy distasteful the more I read of this thread. Yuck. Skin crawls. There is no such thing as a musically educated human who thinks that Ethel Merman is a good singer by modern standard. She was LOUD. That's it.

Don't fuck with young dark men of true musical accomplishment. Unless you got the cash.

r10 Both. I'm embarrassed to say that I only know her from [italic]Will and Grace[/italic], where she was wonderful, but I didn't know she could sing. And sing so well.

In his biography ETHEL MERMAN: A LIFE, author Brian Kellow relates the following story about GYPSY:

Jacqueline Mayro, who played Baby June, remembered one night when she was running a 104-degree fever and was kept out of the show by her mother. It happened to be a night that Mervyn LeRoy, the director assigned to the picture, and several Warners executives were going to be in the audience. Soon a call came from assistant stage manager Ruth Mitchell: 'Miss Merman doesn't care how sick your daughter is. She wants the full original cast on tonight."

R213 Young dark men of true musical accomplishment need to upload their videos.

Simon r211, Ignoring silly people is not at all difficult when one remembers George Carlin's advice: "Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

Thanks for the kind thought.

r215 No one said she was Mother Teresa.

[quote]Jacqueline Mayro, who played Baby June, remembered one night when she was running a 104-degree fever

Then she should have been in the hospital!

Who gives a fuck?

[quote] Both. I'm embarrassed to say that I only know her from Will and Grace, where she was wonderful, but I didn't know she could sing. And sing so well.

She starred in both "How To Succeed" (Matthew Broderick version) and "Young Frankenstein" on Broadway.

Indeed, r221....

Here are more of my super-important opinions! Carol Channing would be nothing without "Hello, Dolly!" NOTHING! And Mary Martin would be NOTHING without "South Pacific"!!

Coming up next, my cruccial opinion of Bernadette Peters if she had never done "Into the Woods"!!

OP, did you have even an inkling that your Ethel Merman thread would generate such , shall we say, enthusiasm? I, for one, have enjoyed it immensely, and I thank you. As a fairly new DLer, I never dreamt I would be able, according to r40, to make the "Mary!"ometer explode with such a relatively small number of posts. It's been a real "hoot," as we used to say at the Sorbonne.

Ethel Merman was like Neil Simon.

The masses liked her.

I think had she not done GYPSY, she would have been the first Dolly.

[quote]Carol Channing would be nothing without "Hello, Dolly!"

Ain't no argument there.

Carol Channing would still have been remembered for Lorelei Lee (despite Marilyn Monroe).

[quote] "...I want to carve my initials in some sailor's neck..."

The Gershwns and Ella Fitzgerald. Does it get any better?

But she became a Broadway legend with Dolly, r228.

r228 & r230: You're both right and aren't we lucky she gave us both?

Well considering the greatest composers of the great American songbook wrote for her even those who dislike her consider themselves complete idiots.

Don't forget the Blondes retread that I thoroughly enjoyed...

Not to mention that Li'l Abner and Mona Kent were also in the cast. And those Bob Mackie costumes!

I've never read such a misinformed and uninformed thread on DL (They are not quite the same thing.) Times are indeed changing.

How many of you going on about how badly she photographed (which was not well) or how awful she sounded (she didn't really record well either) ever saw or heard her live?

She was spectacular live in the theater, where she and Martin were the two Queens, and justly considered so.

If Channing hadn't done Dolly, she would've likely done Mame. She says she was offered the role but was talked out of it by her then husband/manager.

Roz was first offered Mame. She famously turned it down with the comment "I don't eat yesterday's stew." It was then offered next to Merman, yes Merman, and then Martin, who also declined. It was going to be a highly expensive show and the producers were above all interested in box office insurance.

After many, many other declined offers, they finally offered it to Angela, who had basically begged for it. Thank God she landed it. Runners up were Dolores Gray and Nanette Fabray, who had refused to audition ("They know what I can do.").

[quote]r235 She was spectacular live in the theater, where she and Martin were the two Queens, and justly considered so.

I'm sure she did. Charisma is a big part of a star's success.

But we may as well say Sarah Bernhardt was fantastic on stage. It's the 21st Century - who can enjoy Merman, Martin, or Bernhardt's in-person charisma today?

MAME needs warmth. Fabray might have pulled that off but Gray was ice cold.

Bernhardt's Mame would have been something!

Flip-flop...

Bernhardt clomping around on her wooden leg in an earlier version of “Hamilton; from Stage to your TV.”

Adolph Zukor used this film to launch his “Famous Players in Famous Plays” film company - which eventually became Paramount.

[quote]But we may as well say Sarah Bernhardt was fantastic on stage. It's the 21st Century - who can enjoy Merman, Martin, or Bernhardt's in-person charisma today?

What's your point?

His point is Merman sounds like shit and didn't know how to sing. So if you're not there live in theatre to appreciate how LOUD she was, what's the big deal now? She's unlistenable. Merman didn't know how to sing. She sang everything completely forward through her nose. No resonance in her lower register and she didn't use her head voice at all. She had good lungs and a "technique" that never tired. FORWARD THROUGH THE NOSE AND REAL LOUD. It is the sound of her assaultive tone that is tiring. And that vibrato? She's a vaudeville disaster. She just blared like an obnoxious foghorn.

Thank you R244!!

You've summed it up completely - once can be intellectually aware of The Merm's erstwhile professional charms and her place in theater history without finding any joy in actually listening to that wrecking-ball of a voice.

You have to give Merman this much - she kept her voice up until the very end. Even in her last performances, the power was still there. So many women seem to lose their voices in their 50's, but she remained strong. Patti LuPone seems the same way. I'd say she's the closest thing we have to her, because she's played many of the same roles, has an overbearing and brassy persona, isn't the traditional starlet, has kept her voice throughout the years, and is said by many to have a powerful but sometime unpleasant singing voice.

Bernadette Peters tried to inherit the Merman spot, but her voice just wasn't up to it in terms of power and it might have contributed to her vocal decline.

For the idiot at R244: The greatest song writers of the theatre wrote for her. They wrote songs specifically for her. There is a reason for that but it goes way over your head. We KNOW she's loud, nasal....blah, blah, blah... but it goes way beyond that.

r247 You nailed it.

I don't know how can love musical comedy and not enjoy the Merm doing It's DeLovely or Blow Gabriel Blow. If you hated musical comedy that's one thing but Porter tailoring those songs for her? At least acknowledge the problem is you.

I wish Merman had played Bernhardt in THE INCREDIBLE SARAH (1976) - which was tailored for Babs Streisand before being taken over by Glennie Jackson.

Our little Merm would have been so winsome as the frail French orphan turned majestic touring diva. Fantastic musical numbers could have been built around the brothel Bernhardt grew up in ("Home is Where the Muff is"), her habit of sleeping in a coffin ("Look for the Velvet Lining"), and her trusty wooden leg (the rousing "Stamp Twice for Me!")

This website [italic]DREAMS ARE WHAT LE CINEMA IS FOR...(DEDICATED TO MOVIES THAT FUEL DREAMS AND FEED IMAGINATION)[/italic] is campy and very informed. He doesn't mention how furious Merman was to have lost out on this role, which was much talked about in Hollywood at the time... and that's truly my only quible with the link's author. But I bet there's a lot of other mentions of her on his fun site.

Many years ago, when I was a young man, I was fascinated by "The Divine Sarah Bernhardt," as she was known by her legions of adoring fans long before our Bette borrowed part of the sobriquet, and unlike our Bette who styled [bold]herself[/bold] as The Divine Miss M, Madame Bernhardt [/bold]was given the appellation[/bold] by her worshipful public. I avidly read every available biography and fell deeper and deeper in love with this astonishing woman. I don't remember in which biography I read this, but it has remained with me for over 50 years. When Madame Bernhardt was appearing on stage and curtain time was imminent, she would be alerted by the stage manager, not with a loud knock on her dressing room door and a spoken "Eight O'Clock" (in French of course) as was customary for all the other actors, but with a gentle tap on the door accompanied by the statement, "It will be 8:00 when it pleases you Madame Bernhardt."

She truly was divine.

Bernadette was never going to be our Ethel, r246. She's always been our Mary....

Aw, fuck her, r251...

Iowa Jonnie sounds curiously like another poster. Bitch must be at least 85 years old. Florid as fuck. Kind of nauseating. The only Sorbonne he attended was a drag bar in Missouri.

r254 Bye Felicia.

R255. So long, Mary-Anne. You give ancient fags a bad name. A grotesque parody of female shrieking.

Don't be rude, R254.

That kind of mischief-making belongs on twitter and reddit.

R254 should watch her [italic]g-damn trap, [/italic]and be grateful someone remembers Merman's contemporaries, like Bernhardt.

This is the Bernhardt look Streisand was playing around with before she dropped out of the biopic. But I still would have relished seeing Merman's interpretation of her Dream Role.

Losing it was what really killed her.

[quote]r256 So long, Mary-Anne.

My friend and I used to sing that song as, [italic]"So long, Mary-Anne / Didn't know you were a man!"

Here she is, boys!!!

The only voice that could rival Merman's was Karen Morrow's.

Get a load of this number from "I Had A Ball".

She sings a short intro but she's back toward the end.

Anything Goes

Granny Get Your Gun

Miss Morrow...

Did Ethel Merman supply the voices for any animated films? Because she really sounds like what a braying cartoon donkey (or something) would be like.

Thank you for sharing, r265.

It was actually a question.

Better than the OG. TALENT

And truly, what a question it was.

R268 Nice in the dance, the body, the looks, but the voice and the delivery is banal.

Alice Playten was nicknamed "The Mini Merman."

The fabulous choreography is by Michael Bennett. Pia Zadora. Bayork Lee and Priscella Lopez are among other well known names in the chorus.

Nobody like Ethel. Nobody.

R215 That was a crucial night.

That performance in front of Mervyn Le Roy could have meant that Ethel played the role on screen instead of Roz (who I believe was too lanky and middle-class for the role)

I don't think Mervyn Le Roy would have had final say. Didn't Roz and her husband, the Lizard of Roz, secretly by up a substantial if not controlling interest in the screen rights? And wasn't one reason Ethel was so upset is that she thought that it was in her contract for the stage production that the screen rights wouldn't be sold without a provision that she, Ethel, would play Rose?

Something like that. I probably have some of that wrong.

The stories about Ethel getting her hands on Roz's raw original recordings for the soundtrack and playing them at parties for the amusement of her guests are true.

[quote]R273 That performance in front of Mervyn Le Roy could have meant that Ethel played the role on screen instead of Roz

So that sickly little bitch cost Ethel the movie??

Russell was coming off Auntie Mame in 1959, which was a gigantic hit. Merman's last movie was in 1954, "There's No Business Like Show Business" and it was a flop. Of course Russell had the upper hand.

[quote] "By adopting plays which were a large part of Bernhardt's repertoire (which Duse used in Italian translations), Duse was virtually inviting comparisons between her acting ability and that of Bernhardt, particularly since she usually opened her theatrical tours with a performance as Marguerite Gautier in The Lady of Camelias, which was a Bernhardt standard."

Apparently, as you probably already know r253, there was not a lot of love lost between the two. Bernhardt wrote of Duse, "Eleonora Duse is an actress more than an artist…. She walks in paths that have been traced out by others…. She is a great actress, but she is not an artist."

To me, "The Incomparable Duse" was the more beautiful.

I forget whether Roz and her Lizard actually bought the screen rights or simply went to Jack Warner and offered to put up a substantial amount of the production costs but yeah, one way or the other, she bought the part behind Merman's back. Also, Roz had starred in a hit Broadway musical so it was assumed she would be able to do her own singing, which, of course, turned out not to be the case.

[quote]R277 To me, "The Incomparable Duse" was the more beautiful.

TRIVIA: Faye Dunaway paid tribute to (or ripped off) Duse in the final sequence of The Thomas Crown Affair.

She read that Duse had played with her wedding ring in some scene in a play while thinking of her husband, as a “psychological gesture.” Dunaway wraps her necklace around her ring finger while wondering if the man she loves will show up, as prearranged.

r279, I haven't seen the movie and I'm not particularly a fan of Faye Dunaway, but it would be nice to think she was paying homage.

She was. In her autobiography she talks about Duse being her inspiration for that scene.

I doubt it is a conscious homage to Berhardt. Judy Davis does it all the time. I'm sure Geraldine Page does it.

I bet any Bette Davis fan can tell us how frequently old Bette plays with her rings and/or jangles her bangles.

[quote]R282 I doubt it is a conscious homage to Berhardt.

It’s not a conscious homage to Berhardt. She wrote that it was a conscious homage to Duse.

Dunaway also wrote she was inspired by Patricia Neal in HUD for a particular moment in BONNIE AND CLYDE (where she eats some peaches out of a grocery bag.)

BRAVO PATTI LUPONE. The best to ever do it. A trained singer with a great big beautiful VOICE!

[quote]I bet any Bette Davis fan can tell us how frequently old Bette plays with her rings and/or jangles her bangles.

r282, Don't you think there's a fairly big difference between mindlessly fidgeting with jewelry---unless it somehow fills out the character---and very subtly and [/bold]silently/]using a bit of "business" that added dimension to the scene, while at the same time, subtly paying homage to another actress? It seems to me that that was was the gist of r281's post.

Interesting how Merman makes every word crystal clear. She makes everyone else sound mush mouthed. You can see why lyricists loved her. Listen to Patti at R284 and then Merman.

In that cip at R272 Miss Reams gets a few things wrong.

He says it was 'the hottest day in August'. WOMAN OF THE YEAR opened on March 29, 1981

He says the show started at 7. According to the ad in the NY Times, the show started at 6.

He says they couldn't get across town because of the Puerto Rican Day parade. The Puerto Rican Day parade was on June 7, 1981.

It's still a good story, but his memory is, shall we say, a bit faulty, Maybe we should ask dear Carole Cook, who is still with us at 96 how she remembers it.

r282 - Oh fuck off, Miriam. The only thing I jangled was *you*.

Woman of the Year started at 6? Whatever for?

DING-DING-DING-DING! OP, you've just won the prize for stupidest question ever asked on DL!!!!!!!

R287 LOL. Great post.

So that the Opening Night party wouldn't begin at midnight, r289, and the critics would have time to get their reviews in for the next morning.

[quote]R289 Woman of the Year started at 6? Whatever for?

I believe he said 7:00

Where did the rumor come from that the creative team of Gypsy sold the film rights to Warner because they were promised Judy Garland as Rose and Ann-Margret as Louise? There's a movie I'd have liked to have seen.

Was Judy in good enough health in 1962 to carry a film?

Would she have been right for the role?

How about Judy paired again with Micky Rooney as Herbie?

It was close to when she did a few other films, wasn't it? She seemed fine in those movies, but who knows what was happening behind the scenes.

She'd have been a different kind of Rose than the traditional Merman mold, but I think she'd have been very effective. She'd have probably played up the humorous and playful side of Rose more, especially in the early scenes.

Well it's as good a story as Merman going into the audience grabbing a drunk, dragging him up the aisle and out of the theater and throwing him onto 44th St.

Merman in 1930, a Paramount short filmed at the time of GIRL CRAZY. She's surprisingly delicate in "My Future Just Passed" But lets it rip in "Sing You Sinners"

Rare clips...

This is the scene in HUD that Dunaway admired... where Patricia Neal took an orange from her groccery bag and at it on the drive home. Dunaway thought that had a relaxed, earthy, sensual quality.

Hey! Somebody get Ethel another old-fashioned...

And this is where Dunaway adding that to her last scene in BONNIE & CLYDE, taking a pear from a grocery bag. She thought it would contrast well with the upcoming violence, and make her seem more unaware, more vulnerable. And it underscored the couple's lack of sophistication.

[quote]Where did the rumor come from that the creative team of Gypsy sold the film rights to Warner because they were promised Judy Garland as Rose and Ann-Margret as Louise? There's a movie I'd have liked to have seen.

Lorna Luft IS Baby June!

Ah, I see this thread is just one guy talking to himself from TWO devices!! It's that guy. The Jessica Lange, Faye Dunaway, Jussie Smollett old meth head troll. Funny how the one always agree with the other. They might not post for 12 hours but someone posts and agrees immediately after? And he tag teams between Sarah Bernhardt and can't sing Merman posts. Iowa Jonny and his supporter from where the fuck. The important thing is that they AGREE. And write exactly the same shit about two different topics. And the dealer arrives to the home on time. This kind of thread keeps going because Iowa Johnny can't get UP. He's a lot like miss warwicke. 80 year old fags just can't give up trying to be clever when they can't get fucked. I'm gay. Not gonna be that sad. Some of the discussion is illustrative. But stop pretending to be two different people. We see your style, your pattern and the CAPS! You're not the top.

Mind blown. Thank you weed. King solved a mystery today. Because no one thinks Ethyl Merman can *sing*....never mind two ancient queers who write in exactly the same style. Have fun men. Cheers.

I reckon if we looked at 'Hud' and 'Bonnie & Clyde' again we'd find LOTS of similarities.

Pretty man, louche woman, cars, Texas landscapes, illiteracy and anti-social behaviour

[quote]Ah, I see this thread is just one guy talking to himself from TWO devices!!

No, it's not.

All threads wind up being invaded by it's share of nutcases, but this thread has had lots of great posts and info.

Yes, you're right R306, there has lots of great posts and info.

I have a query about that movie at R300. There was pretty young man in it named Brandon de Wilde. I have noticed that some people pronounce his name as if it's 'Wilder' rather than like Oscar Wilde's.

[quote]Ethyl Merman

Turn in your gay card.

r307 I've always heard it pronounced duh-WILL-duh.

R308. SIC

This would be Ethyl Merman...

Ethyl Merman sounded like she gargled with gasoline.

[quote]The Jessica Lange, Faye Dunaway, Jussie Smollett old meth head troll. Funny how the one always agree with the other.

I think you're paranoid ... I added the info about Bernhardt because I was pointing out that the stage Ethel Merman has almost become that ancient actress' contemporary - hardly anyone who's left saw those two live. Then the Dunaway points flowed out of someone contrasting Bernhardt to Duse, and the latter had written about being influenced by some of that performer's choices.

[quote]And the dealer arrives to the home on time.

I'm sober, bitch [bold]: o[/bold]

[quote]We see your style, your pattern and the CAPS!

When you see movie/play/book titles in caps, it means the person probably works in Hollywood. That's the easiest way to make a title be differentiated when you're discussing titles all the time. (They actually should be in italics, but that takes more time.) Anyway, it's not a personal taste one person has, it's an old industry standard.

Now #GetOut!

They asked her to play Jack Klugman's aunt in The Odd Couple.

You're a fool to defend yourself R313. Old industry standards? You're a small town cocksucker obsessed with old movie queens. Everyone knows your name.

^^ How very dare you!

I'll have you know I had bit parts in movies! [italic] And[/italic] appeared on the legitimate stage!

Here's Ethel when she was in the original run of Gypsy doing "Everything's Coming Up Rose's" on the Perry Cuomo Show.

She always did concert arrangements which robbed the song of its darker context but I think she should have stuck with the original more dramatic one.

She cheats the high note and has to scream the ending. Lupone nails that note and then polished it off with a gorgeous vibrato. Very few singers on Broadway are capable of that. Certainly Ethel wasn't. Your observations are stolen directly from the YouTube comments R317. Listen to Lupone over and over again. You'll hear a gorgeously talented singer who shades the lyrics and builds the song properly then finishes it with unbelievable bravado. Not fake shit, real vocal highwire thrills. Ethel just pushed it out through her nose and throws her arms up in the air to distract from her inability to hold the final note. Garland did that shit too. No one is fooled by that shit anymore. Merman didn't know how to sing. She could emote in a crude and corny sort of way.

[quote]Ah, I see this thread is just one guy talking to himself from TWO devices!!

How you've come to this convoluted conclusion r304 makes me wonder if you might have too much time on your hands. Have you considered a hobby? Perhaps painting on glass or growing ivy for ground cover?

[quote]... he tag teams between Sarah Bernhardt and can't sing Merman posts.

Not only have I not posted that La Merman can't sing, I've never even thought it.

[quote]... 80 year old fags .... ... ancient queers.... ... old ... troll ....

You seem a bit preoccupied with age, r304. Does it frighten you? It needn't, if you don't fill you days with hatred and vitriol; after all, "how we spend our days is how we spend our lives." Personally, I consider (in your estimation) my prehistoric age a blessing. So very many of my closest friends---practically my entire generation--- did not survive an epidemic that occurred before you were alive.

[quote]and the CAPS!

I don't believe I used CAPS! in any of my posts, though I notice you employ them three times in one post alone

[quote]Thank you weed. ... dealer arrives to the home on time. How can you do meth at your age man? ... meth head ...

Another preoccupation that I notice of yours seems to be drugs. Mind you, I have no quarrel with weed; indeed, I smoked my first joint long before you were born---in fact it was still called [italic]Dona Juanita[italic/] in those long-ago days. Your repeated mentions of meth, however, is worrisome.

[quote] You're not the top. Iowa Johnny can't get UP.

I don't discuss my sexual proclivities with strangers, but if I did, I would refer you to many satisfied partners--both past and present.

[quote]... no one thinks Ethyl Merman can *sing*.

As I've already mentioned in a previous post, I try never to forget George Carlin's advice: "never argue with an idiot because they will just pull you down to your level and beat you with experience."

[quote] I'm gay. Not gonna be that sad.

Alas, r304, it seems as though that ship sailed a long time ago.

Huh? Have you considered a hobby R319?

R318 why so much anger? I didn't say anything bad about LuPone. I think she is a fine singer, diction aside.

[quote]Perry Cuomo Show.

Mario's brother?

Yikes lol my bad :-)

In my r319 reply to r304, I misquoted George Carlin. His quote was: "Never argue with an idiot because they will just pull you down to [bold]their[bold/]level and beat you with experience." Also sorry that the italics ran wild and that I forgot to identify myself. r304 , I imagine that you will undoubtedly chalk this up to my advanced age so I've now saved you the trouble of another reply.

The original...

Ethel gabbing with Gypsy...

R318 Patti Lupone's diction is horrible.

It's the theatre. The lyrics move the story along. Singing "well" is secondary in theatre. If the lyrics are not heard you've failed.

Patti Lupone is the best we've got,agreed, but Gypsy, Anything Goes?...she can't beat Merman. Actually, Lupone would probably agree.

This business about Merman not being able to sing...or Garland. Uh...would you like a list of songwriters who wrote specifically for them, and the immortal songs they introduced?

Please list the great songs Patti Lupone has introduced.

Thanks in advance.

Ms. Lupone has Ethel Merman's aurora borealis jewelry set from [italic]Happy Hunting[/italic] in her archives.

She talks about it at the 3:00 mark. Elsewhere she mentioned not feeling bad about keeping it after wearing it in a charity concert, because it, and its significance, would be lost.

Ethel Merman does not technically know how to sing. No one would be writing songs for her today or casting her as anything but Mrs. Thenardier in Les Miz. She was a blaring ham with an expression that scares children. Who cares if she didn't need a mic? She sounded like SHITE. I can't convince old fags who were 35 at the time of her Broadway debut. You delude you. I know what I know.

Although there are some who adore her, I’ve never gotten Merman. She seems to lack nuance.

I never realized those GYPSY songs had real tunes until I heard others sing them

This looks like the R329 Merman necklace Lupone has, but here its worn with different earrings.

I just think it's nice that while some of us are dubious about Miss Merman's charms, at least Lupone treasures owning her stage jewelry : )

[quote]Ethel Merman does not technically know how to sing.

r330, that may be because George Gershwin advised her “Don’t ever take singing lessons Ethel… you’ll ruin your voice!” after hearing her stop the show with his song “I Got Rhythm” in [italic]Girl Crazy[italic/].

Well of course the music of musicals of the last 40 years are light years ahead of when Gershwin, Porter, Arlen, Berlin, Rodgers, and Kern were writing.

If someone hits the note, they can sing. Doesn't matter if it sounds pleasant or not of if they have the right quality. Singing is, in essence, just hitting the notes. Even the best singers flub notes here and there, especially while performing live.

[quote]Well of course the music of musicals of the last 40 years are light years ahead of when Gershwin, Porter, Arlen, Berlin, Rodgers, and Kern were writing.

R334, I'm genuinely interested to know which contemporary composers, other than Sondheim, you feel are writing the music that is "light years ahead" of the above mentioned composers.

I am sick of this ill-informed shit that Merman didn't know how to sing correctly. She instinctively sang from her diaphragm and had great breath support and diction. That's why she was still able to fill a theater with ringing tones into her old age while many singers lose their voice years earlier. As mentioned above, Toscanini adored her and called her "iron lungs Merman."

R336 I figured that poster was joking. At least I hope so...

r338, Originally I took it as a joke also, but I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt. I, too, hope it is a joke.

[quote]r337 As mentioned above, Toscanini adored her and called her "iron lungs Merman."

That was just one fatty sticking up for another.

Another one who is far better than Merman. In vocal production, musical interpretation, characterization, charm and the pure beauty of her voice. Reba.

There have been many apocryphal stories over the years about Ethel's brashness and wit. There are DL threads about them. Here are two of my favorites.

__________________

Opening night of Gypsy a backstage worker walked past her dressing room in the afternoon. The door was open and inside was Ethel, nonchalantly polishing her diamonds.

"Goodness, Miss Merman. It's opening night. Aren't you nervous about what the critics will say?"

"To Hell with the critics, I know when I'm good."

__________________

Openimg night of Dolly with Merman. Jerry Herman is sitting in the front row wearing a tuxedo with his hair all slicked back. Merman takes curtain call after call but never acknowledges him. Later, someone said to her "Ethel, didn't you realize Jerry was sitting there all dressed up because he was expecting you to call him up to take a bow?"

"I never did that for George or Cole or Irving, I don't know why he'd think I'd do it for him."

__________________

I'll let someone else explain the Miss Bird's Eye story. Oh, and stop crapping the thread, r341. We get it, you don't like her. You're not changing anyone's mind pro or con. Begone before somebody drops a house on you too.

^ Fuck off Grampa ^

R341 Perfect for Branson Missouri.

Here's a Star doing the number. The woman that Irving Berlin wrote the song for.

Eat shit and die, little boy. BTW I loved Reba in Annie just like everybody else. They almost changed the Tony rules that year to allow a replacement performer to be eligible.

Sorry my post above was intended for r343, NOT rr344.

Thanks for the link, r344!

Merman drags her kids to a rehearsal of "Gypsy". The kids are sitting in the audience. Merman is up on stage going through a number. The number ends and the stagehands come on to change the scenery. A piece of scenery drops and one of the stagehands starts cussing.

Merman shouts: "Hey you, don't say FUCK around the K–I–D–S!

R344. Is that the best she could do? Singing flatter than usual to give a country characterization. And that plodding dead on the note delivery. She's terrible. If anyone belonged in Branson Missouri it's that braying disco cow, Ethil Mermin.

Ethyl's kids both killed themselves in their twenties, right? And several of her ex husbands did too. But she kept singing the same old crap anywhere they would invite her. She was a TV joke in my mother's time. I understand she used to be someone, more than 80 years ago. Like Al Jolson. Part of a forgotten way of singing and performing. Success is always interesting, but she wasn't talented by more modern standard. That terrible voice and artless singing. Ugh.

And she said such nice things about you, r349.

Nobody does Rose’s Turn like she does. She’s able to convey anger and jealousy and regret, and yet you feel sorry for her anyway.

[quote]r349 Ethyl's kids both killed themselves in their twenties, right? And several of her ex husbands did, too.

Maybe there was something about the frequency of her voice . . . ?

Grateful when it's over.

Girls, girls, girls... Ethel was a big star AND had a horrible voice.

Kids, I don't know what's wrong with these kids today....

Haha! That's it R354. Thread closed.

Mentioning that Merman was loud and nasal or that Al Jolson was a ham is not telling us anything we don't already know. But it misses the point entirely..

Merman was no Medford!

Kris Kristofferson and Louis Armstrong had awful voices, too. Ditto for Warren Zevon at the link.

By all means. But Ethel was the worst. Her voice peeled paint. Warren Zevon refused to duet with her.

To the contrary, Ethel's comment was "Warren WHO?"

Does anyone here ever interact with anyone under 40? the ONLY thing that new MT generations know Ethel for is The Disco Album, and even then only as a campy meme. It's sad but true.

R362 - Merman's an acquired taste in any demographic, my mother is 85 and always disliked her.

I can definitely see where one wouldn't appreciate her voice. And I know that technically, she wasn't very good. But, I do enjoy watching and hearing her sing very much. Her duet with Mary Martin on the Ford 50th Anniversary is spectacular. (1:28:12 in the below video)

Where was Ethel's Phaedra? Her Juliet?

[quote]technically, she wasn't very good

Don't believe everything you read here. Technically, her vocal production was excellent which is why Gerswhin told her not to take lessons and her voice lasted for decades.

You're repeating yourself again Nana @ R356.

Oh no, goodness forgive me. The above post was meant for R366!! Believe the worst about Ethel's lack of vocal talent. This thread doesn't cover a fraction of the problems with her vocal production. Iowa Johnny and his gang of thugs have tried to brainwash people with EARS into believing that Ethel Merman could sing. Because George Gershwin had a brain tumor.

[quote]Don't believe everything you read here. Technically, her vocal production was excellent which is why Gerswhin told her not to take lessons and her voice lasted for decades.

To your point: Ethel in "Dolly" at 62 years old, Walter Kerr wrote about her voice.:

"Exactly as trumpet-clean, exactly as penny whistle-piercing, exactly as Wurlitzer-wonderful as it always was."

Some people admired Merman's big voice, but they're the kind who think a painting's good just because it's on a huge canvas, or that a McMansion is fab because it's oversized.

So know we know that making fun of Gershwin's brain tumor is your level of discourse, r368, which is what some of us always suspected.

[quote]Some people admired Merman's big voice, but they're the kind who think a painting's good just because it's on a huge canvas, or that a McMansion is fab because it's oversized.

Some people included Irving Berlin, Cole Porter, George Gershwin, Jules Styne....

R371. There's only one of you dude. You just post from a few different devices. What happened to your FAYE DUNAWAY fixation? Ethel Mermin only has one living fan Nana. And it's you Iowa Johnny!! So what about the brain tumor. What distorts your senses so?

No, there are several of us r373, and I have been suspecting your name is Matt.

R374. Huh? Nigga you're too old for that shit fag. Don't call a man who makes sense Matt. I'm a singer and musician, not a DL troll. I see you Iowa Johnny. Don't fuck with me.

Thank you for posting that, r369, I'm posting this because I can't W&W you more than once.

Can't Sing! / Big Star! Fog Horn! / Good & LOUD! Tastes Great! / Less Filling! Lather, rinse, repeat...

What is an Iowa Johnny?

A public toilet in Dubuque, perhaps?

An Iowa Johnny pays you to use it.

Was Gershwin the gay, crippled one?

I don't get your meaning, r381, George wasn't disabled. Was his lovely wife Ira?

[quote]Iowa Johnny and his gang of thugs have tried to brainwash people with EARS into believing that Ethel Merman could sing.

r368, We obviously have different ideas of what brainwashing is. I have expressed my opinions knowing that anyone reading them can take them or leave them. I really don't care what you think of Ethel Merman. Also, when expressing my opinions, I have not resorted to juvenile name-calling, nor will I ever. I don't pay any attention, and I doubt very seriously that "my gang of thugs" does either, to such posters as r374, r375, r379, or380, to name just four. I wasn't aware that I had "a gang of thugs." If by that you mean other people who agree with my opinions, I'd say that puts me in pretty good company.

[quote]Some people admired Merman's big voice, but they're the kind who think a painting's good just because it's on a huge canvas, or that a McMansion is fab because it's oversized.

r370, if you read r369's excellent post, you'll see that Walter Kerr was one of the people who admired Miss Merman. True, he was just one person, but he was also a person who won a Pulitzer Prize for Criticism in 1978 for "articles on the theater". In 1983, Kerr was inducted into the American Theater Hall of Fame. In 1990, the former Ritz Theater on West 48th Street in the Theater District, New York was renamed the Walter Kerr Theatre in his honor. (Wikipedia)

[quote]After many, many other declined offers, they finally offered it to Angela, who had basically begged for it.

And I believe they didn't offer her the role until almost a year after she auditioned.

[quote]Ethyl's kids both killed themselves in their twenties, right?

Ether Junior died of an accidental overdose. Her son is still alive.

Ethel, not Ether, but Ether is kind of funny.

ETHER MERMAN. That's what Sondheim called her!!

[quote]Where was Ethel's Phaedra? Her Juliet?

After her triumphal world tour playing Hamlet, Miss Merman felt she was "over" the classics and wanted to return to the musical theatre which she felt offered her more of a challenge. I know, r365, it devastates me, too, when I think of never having heard her declaim, “My bounty is as boundless as the sea, ..."

[quote] And I believe they didn't offer her the role until almost a year after she auditioned.

She auditioned three times, flying from LA to NY to do so at her own expense each time. Jerry Herman had hoped for Garland but after Angela's first audition, he personally coached her and recommended a vocal coach with whom she worked very hard. After her third audition, she famously told her the producers and other creatives that she had prostrated herself before them, she wanted the part but that she wouldn't be coming back to audition again. She also told them she was booked on an evening flight back to LA and wanted a yes or no answer before she left. Later that afternoon she got a phone call from the producers asking her to take the part. The runners up were Dolores Gray and Nanette Fabray, who had refused to audition. Everyone else had turned them down.

Again with that same story Nana? You're getting mixed up with your multiple devices again, southside Johnny.

Nana is the dog in Peter Pan. Go back to your dogs. You need some kind of company even if educated humans don't want you around.

Some great Ethel Merman quotations:

"Irving Berlin told me: never take a singing lesson! It'll ruin your voice!"

(when asked why she divorced Ernest Borgnine): "People make mistakes! That's why they put erasers on pencils!"

(when asked about her feelings for her daughter, Ethel Jr.): "God knows I love Little Ethel, but she can't sing a note!"

[quote]I too love everything that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, semen, blood, bile, words, sentences. I love the amniotic fluid when it spills out of the bag. I love the kidney with it’s painful gall-stones, it’s gravel and what-not; I love the urine that pours out scalding and the clap that runs endlessly; I love the words of hysterics and the sentences that flow on like dysentery and mirror all the sick images of the soul.

-Ethel Merman

[quote]Nana is the dog in Peter Pan. Go back to your dogs. You need some kind of company even if educated humans don't want you around.

r391, Bravo! Succinct and not unkind.

Complimenting your own posts again Johnny from Iowa?

" Succinct and not unkind."

I guess I failed.

[quote]I guess I failed.

Was there ever any doubt?

Again, who is Iowa Johnny? Sounds like a minor gangster from some forgotten Weill work.

[quote]Complimenting your own posts again Johnny from Iowa?

It humbles me, r395, that that has not been necessary.

But life is short and funny and love must have an end,

Come put your arms around me, oh mon amie, my friend.

Thank you for this, r364. You're absolutely right---the duet with Mary Martin is spectacular.

Iowa Johnny is the furthest thing from a gangster you'll find. He's a old gay man who cries when Ethyl Mermin sings. Knock yourself out Johnny. Listen, have your cry and go the fuck to bed. They're having french toast tomorrow at the home.

Oh, and stop pretending you're two people old dude. No one has complimented your posts. All you do is simper.

The very lesbian Mary and the very straight Merman actually became very good friends in their later years. So many of their friends were gone and they each had such memories that nobody else could understand. I remember an episode of Mike Douglas or Dinah or Merv Griffin or one of those afternoon talk shows where they sat there together squeezing each other's hands as they recounted their careers.

"Dyke ya know." be damned at the end. She understands me and what I've been through was the song at the end of the day.

Oh, and I've been accused multiple times of being Johnny Iowa on this thread without having any idea who he is, so thanks for the explanation, r402.

r402, I've said before that I don't respond to name-callers, and I usually don't, but I do appreciate the video you posted, and being well brought up I'm obliged to let you know. By the way, I've never claimed to be a "ganster." That was some other name-calling poster. Perhaps you know him?

Goodnite Johnny.

Merman was the Queen of Broadway long before Martin achieved co-status with South Pacific and they never had a personal feud or intense rivalry, despite various press attempts to create one. They did indeed become closer in their later years. Merman once said "Mary's all right if you like talent." And after losing the Gypsy Tony to her for The Sound of Music she said "Ya can't buck a nun."

Good night, r405.

One reason that Merman and Martin didn't have a big rivalry was that although their talents over lapped, they were distinctly different types and were rarely up for the same roles. There were a few exceptions. Merman created Annie Oakley on Broadway but Mary Martin led the first national tour very successfully. (Rodgers and Hammerstein, who produced AGYG, were so pleased with her performance that she was their first choice for South Pacific.)

Merman and Martin both turned down Hello, Dolly! for personal reasons but Martin led the first national tour, which turned into the International Tour, which ended up in the West End as the original London production. Years later, Ethel called Mary for her advice as to whether she should take over the role on Broadway.

[quote] "Mary's all right if you like talent."

r406 I think many people are unaware that she could be quite witty.

"Christmas carols always bring tears to my eyes. I always cry at weddings. I should have cried at a couple of my own."

r408, I wouldn't mind being accused of being you. Based on this one post I can see that you're bright, engaging, and probably blessed with a razor-sharp wit.

r402 pretends to be tough but after trying to insult me (he failed) he appends a delightful video to his post that he somehow knew I would enjoy. He's probably a sweetheart underneath all his name-calling. His obsession with me "pretending to be two people" however, is more than a little tiresome.

Dammit. r410 was meant for r403. But Ithink it probably applies to you as well. r408.

[quote]A request to all the haters and name-callers.

The day draws late and Morpheus beckons, so would all of the name-callers please wait until tomorrow to sling your hatred my way? I like a little nonsense with my breakfast.

Iowa Johnny, r 403 and r408 here. Thank you so much for your very kind words. It was so frustrating being accused over the course of the thread of being you when I had no idea who you are . The thread became very hard to follow for obvious reasons. But you are obviously a very informed and very kind poster.

I know, MARY!

But thanks.

r413, As we used to say when I was very young, "It takes one to know one," (though not in a positive way, as I do here). I realize by referencing my age I'm setting up the name-callers to make hateful remarks, but I don't care, because one of the many advantages of being pre-historic is that I've heard them all before, and so far, none of the DL haters have demonstrated an iota of wit. My wish for them is to just go away, but if they can't/won't, then I genuinely hope that they will soon come to the realization that harboring all that hate, bigotry, and negativity is hard on the body as well as the soul. It's very bad for the immune system, and in this time of the pandemic, that's like adding fuel to an almost out-of-control fire.

Thank you for [bold]your[/bold] kind words.

R414: Good night, sweet prince.

r415 Ah, shucks. Now you've gone and made me blush.

Sweet dreams, my friend.

I've noticed NOBODY gives a fuck about early Merman.

I can't believe people are actually wondering if Merman could sing. Anyone with any knowledge of music could plainly hear that Merman could sing. She's hitting the notes very well. Now, if you don't like the quality of her voice, that's a completely different topic. There are lots of people who don't have traditionally pretty voices, but who can technically sing.

Whatever Merman did, she kept her voice up until the very end which is admirable. She was a powerhouse.

Rose's Turn + dressing room scene [Gypsy, 1961] - Ethel Merman

Iowa Johnny is probably that queen that Merman left her diaries to. No one else would have an interest in this forgotten woman.

[quote]... she kept her voice up until the very end ...

And as I'm sure you know, r418, that end did not come until 50 years after her remarkable career began.

[quote]Iowa Johnny is probably that queen that Merman left her diaries to.

I wish.

[quote] No one else would have an interest in this forgotten woman.

r420, Do you actually think that all 421 of the posts in this thread expressed disinterest and disapproval of this remarkable women? Have you even read any of them, or did you just jump to the end so you could throw some dirt at me? Well, buddy, far better men than you have called me a queen and I've still somehow managed to survive.

[quote] No one else would have an interest in this forgotten woman.

Are you kidding? Helen Lawson was based on her. For that fact alone, she's a Datalounge legend.

I couldn't figure out why this thread was so long until Ignore-dar realized it's mostly just the Royal Conservatory Queen and Iowa Johnny going back and forth with one another.

r424, you still haven't got it figured out yet. But keep trying. You'll get there. Eventually.

Ethel was charming with the Kean Sisters singing the Little Rock song with the extended lyrics. Jane Kean, the blonde on the right, would later portray Trixie Norton on The Honeymooners reboot in the 60s.

[quote]r385 Ether Junior died of an accidental overdose.

Was she a hop head? Was she found in a sleazy motel with the needle hangin' from her arm?

Just disgraceful.

[quote]Her son is still alive.

But was suspected of killing his wife or something, right?

Again, a [italic]disgrace.[/italic] I almost can't bring myself to talk about it .... a murderer, and a drug addict, all from one womb.

Ethel was a BIG BLARING BORE. She had the most arrogant personality and so little insight. She didn't care for anyone but her career. What woman other than Lucy and Merman named their daughters junior? And what kind of old fruit defends a suicide as an accident decades later. Ethel had unhappy children and husbands. She could only say good things about herself. Any armchair psychologist will note her bovine stupidity and lack of personal grace or emotional generosity. A bull in the china shop of showbiz. Oh, she wasn't liked. And no one is jealous of that voice, just the praise heaped upon her utters. Ethel didn't know a good song from a bad one. She was musical in only the most basic sense, but far from inventive. All her singing shows that. She had no jazz or hot feeling, no rhythm that wasn't on the nose of the beat. No vocal infection that wasn't in her most robotic repertoire. Especially noticeable when she ventured away from her "hits." Ethel never had a hit record - because the public has ears. Not everyone goes for needlepoint and bourgeois Broadway. She was a very crass woman with a voice to match. Ethyl did originate some songs important to musical theatre. And she was lucky to be given a chance to piss all over them. But all of them have been done better and how. Many times over by now. RIP Merman. You killed Ethel Junior AND ruined so many other songs.

Sounds like Helen Hayes is drinking again.

Why so much anger, r248? It almost seems as if you feel everything about her was aimed at you personally. I, too, have strong opinions, but such built-up anger toward someone who really had nothing to do with you personally cannot be healthy. Let it go, for your own good. Good luck.

Dear Johnny, R430, this thread has become very sour over this last week. I'm staying away from it.

No thread about Ethel Merman would be complete without this classic by Leo Robin ,Richard Whiting and Frederick Hollander:

Psst. Simon - you are also Johnny Iowa. We know this. You seem to be only here immediately after he posts. Like a piece of toilet paper hanging out his prolapsed ASS?

I'm not full of hate. I'm full of music and taste and discernment and education and accomplishment. Merman is a musical grotesque. Did she deserve to die in a gas chamber or from being lynched? No.

And she didn't. Doesn't mean we have to celebrate her hideous voice and mundane personality. Iowa Johnny. You'll never exhaust a young black man who knows so much more and better than you. Your fake gentility is hilarious. Then you post your bitchery from another source!!! One insults the posters who hate Merman and the other compliments you. On nothing. All you do is post quotes and simper into your tears. Dude. It's sad. But we're gonna ride this out because I can start dismantling Merman's voice and singing style note by note at any time. I just might. I don't usually do that for free and she's not a very interesting vocal subject.

You're welcome old Pa. And Simon, and the FAYE DUNAWAY fan too. And the Sarah Bernhardt detour!!!That was a good hit, huh old Johnny? You're family Portable Toilet business was a big success. I'm glad it afforded you a few trips to the big city. Now rest. You've earned it. Pushing Ethel up a hill is more toxic waste than any son should have to take on.

Peace gramps. How was the french toast at the home this morning? Are y'all still on lockdown or did you play some BINGO?

Ethel didn't drive her child to accidental suicide. She barely knew she existed.

I'm shocked by the amount of hatred someone like Ethel Merman is triggering in some people. Did she rape your first born or something?

She had talent. She wasn't the best or most nuanced actor, but her personality was more her selling point and, in the right role, she could be great. As pushy women like Annie, Rose, and Dolly, she worked. Just because you don't like what someone's bringing to the table doesn't mean they're without talent or that everyone that enjoys them are idiots who need to be lectured to.

[quote]I'm not full of hate. I'm full of music and taste and discernment and education and accomplishment.

You are a professional troll and I still suspect your name is Matt.

r431, I agree with you and I'm at a complete loss as to why the tone has changed so drastically. I've been a bit encouraged today, as the usual trolls who seem to delight in coming after me seem to have taken the day off (except for one who is particularly hateful). It makes very sad, and at the same time angry, that what started out so winningly has now succeeded in driving you---and who knows how many others---away. When I joined DL I knew that it was not over-burdened with high intellect, but I didn't realize how much hate it harbored. I'm not sure how longer I'll stick around, either. I don't like the idea of letting "them" win, but the atmosphere has become toxic and is probably best avoided. This saddens me more than I can say.

Helen gets like this way when she drinks. You know, "First Lady of the Theatre" and all.

She could never accept Ethel as "The Queen of Broadway". It's as simple as that. Just pay her no never mind.

r437, you are a delight! If I could, I would WW you again. Thank you for the levity. (I haven't thought of Molly Picon in ages!)

So true, r437...

r438 - Chin up, Johnny...

By all means leave Iowa Port-A-Potty Johnny. But you won't. Your fond wish if only thing could be less hateful would come to magical life if you just removed your 268 posts from this thread!!! Get the fuck out. I'll eat you for dinner and lunch as long as push this grotesque human being and terrible example of "singing" upon us. The one you call Ethel. She won't stand or abide. Go to the Broadway World message boards or post under her YouTube atrocities and rarities. We've found your sad voice and weird style there. I've learned alot about how old fags operate on DL. On the weekends. Because tomorrow you're gone John.

This ain't gonna fly in the world NOW. Some of us were born long after 1970. And we ain't going for Ethel Merman can sing??? She didn't, she couldn't and she never can try again.

Chins up. And get that Simon removed from your prolapse. I see your third device is working well today too. It's quieter at the home on Sundays. Extra computer. Right Nana? Nana is Iowa Johnny B

You are a mensch. Shalom, R440.

Helen has always been bitter. So what can you do?

You know her son Jimmy was married to Joyce Bulifant.

So you can sort of understand.

Dear Simon, (r431), I hope you'll reconsider about leaving the thread just yet. I don't know why I haven't blocked some of these trolls before now, but I'm vowing to do so now. (It felt wonderful to send that awful "KING" to oblivion.) Your absence will greatly diminish what has been so much fun (for the most part) until just lately.

r440's optimism has given me the boost I needed. I don't want you to go.

This feminization of real men, in some lame attempt to diminish us - began at what age Port a Potty Johnny? 65? 75? 80? You've wheeled past those hurdles - so you would know. Answer me. Maybe you always pranced around and lisped and made fun of handsome men you couldn't afford? Most likely.

'K' = . . .

[quote]Some people included Irving Berlin, Cole Porter, George Gershwin, Jules Styne....

Well some people ain't ME!

A True Star, A Fine Actress, A Most Thrilling Voice. Theater Magic.

I don't like her vibrato, R448. Therefore, I'm going to say she can't sing, because that's apparently how it works around here.

I remember her largely as Gopher's aunt (or mother?) I believe Carol Channing was Julie's aunt, and Ann Miller was related to one of the crew members somehow. I remember a Lauren Tewes interview years after the Love Boat ended how she regretted not really appreciating what legends they had playing their family.

Personally, I am not a huge fan of her voice, but I do think she was talented and certainly a legend. I will say some of those early 30's recordings show her showing some more restraint and more of a range than the classic Merman sound.

Sacrilege. - I do think Gypsy is an excellent show, but I not sure I appreciate Rose's Turn like I should.

Did Lansbury channel in any of her Manchurian candidate scheming in the darker moments? I know Channing is considered a little one note, but that clip with her and Angela, even though she is past her prime, shows she has that intangible stage presence that a lot of more talented people do not have. Plus she just seems to enjoy it so much.

Lansbury was very scary in the role when she wanted to be. See her Rose's Turn to see how she played it as a full on breakdown. Very haunting performance.

What becomes a Legend most?

[quote]. I remember a Lauren Tewes interview years after the Love Boat ended how she regretted not really appreciating what legends they had playing their family.

I'm surprised she even remembers, since she was probably coked up to the gills at the time.

R452 Thanks for the great Blackgama ad that Merman did. Before I had my consciousness raised regarding the wearing of fur, I used to love these ads and eagerly await the next one to see who would appear. Off topic, but I remember reading that when Judy Garland finished her shoot she was in such a hurry to be off that she left wearing the coat she had modeled, rather than leave it so Blackgama could line it for her. (Those who appeared in the ads, as you probably know, were given the coat that they modeled in lieu of a fee.)

Thanks R451 . It really is a shame there is not more footage of Angela's Mame performance. It would also be interesting to see some of her Dear World performance. I know the show was supposedly a mess, but I heard her performance was great (hence the Tony for a show that folded pretty quickly and for someone who had won a Tony fairly recently).

When you read about the real Rose -- if anything they toned her down for the show.

I think this was around the time of Jon Benet, but I watched some sort of documentary on child pageants. One mother had her daughter singing "Let me Entertain You." I am guessing the mother did not realize how appropriate it was to pick a song about a daughter learning how to strip when pushed into it by her stage mother.

Don't forget, r450, she *was* one of Clint's earliest love interests...

r454 - Johnny, it's safe to assume that Ethel didn't end up with that coat. They had sent over. the wrong size. They ended up pinning it into that weird toga.

Carol's song from First Traveling Saleslady. Unfortunately Warner's yanked Carol's version off Youtube.

Ethel, Carol, Mary, and Julie. Old bores of Broadway. Strictly for the dead and nearly there. (iowa john)

Lansbury had much more talent, though not as a singer.....

r457, I remember that now that you've mentioned it. There was either a book, or more likely, a long article about this ad campaign that I vaguely remember reading.

And there's no disputing that Ethel had great legs.

One thing you always have to remember about Ethel Merman was that part of what made her a star was just the sheer size of her voice, which really mattered in the 1930s and 40s when they couldn't mike those gigantic theatres. Audiences loved that you could sit in the very back row of one of the biggest houses like the Majestic and hear her voice so clearly.

Also, although we mostly remember her in middle age and old age when she became stout and stately and had those awful big hairdos, she didn't always look that way. She was never a beauty, but in the 1930s she was much, much slimmer, and she was considered peppy and cute (especially from a great distance in a Broadway house).

This is Ethel in 1934 as the original Reno Sweeney in "Anything Goes."

One thing you always have to remember about Ethel Merman was that part of what made her a star was just the sheer size of her voice, which really mattered in the 1930s and 40s when they couldn't mike those gigantic theatres. Audiences loved that you could sit in the very back row of one of the biggest houses like the Majestic and hear her voice so clearly.

Also, although we mostly remember her in middle age and old age when she became stout and stately and had those awful big hairdos, she didn't always look that way. She was never a beauty, but in the 1930s she was much, much slimmer, and she was considered peppy and cute (especially from a great distance in a Broadway house).

This is Ethel in 1934 as the original Reno Sweeney in "Anything Goes."

'Doesn't mean we have to celebrate her hideous voice and mundane personality.' She is a major force in the history of the American theater so yes you have to whether or not you want to.

You can't change history despite being someone who wants to an attitude which has taken over the country like a delirium.

Yep, r460, it's in the book.

[quote]Audiences loved that you could sit in the very back row of one of the biggest houses like the Majestic and hear her voice so clearly.

George Gershwin also greatly appreciated this extraordinary ability. He knew that when she introduced songs he had written expressly for her they would be heard in the very back row of largest theatres. We expect this in opera singers (or at least we used to) but not in musical theatre singers.

[quote] She was never a beauty...

True. But vocal abilities aside, has anyone ever called Patti Lapone, Bernadette Peters or Angela Lansbury great beauties? In the end, isn't it always about the voice?

r463 Well put.

r464, Yes, I remember that now. I don't know about you, but after the campaign starting using "super models," I felt it lost much of its panache.

(Not that it matters, but r460 was me; I just forgot to sign it.)

Yes Johnny, the big stars had panache.

But I understand that very few of them refused to photographed for this ad campaign.

r468,When you say very few refused, I'm not sure if you mean great stars or "super models." Though she was neither, I'm pretty sure I remember that Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis refused (understandably).

r468, Simon, I forgot to say that I'm happy to see you back.

Simon is always and only here when you are "Johnny." Because you're both the same poster!

Ethel and Iowa Porta Potty Johnny. Sometime before death.

And then along comes Carol....

R469, They must have approached Garbo.

r469, you're probably right. It's no surprise, to me, that she never appeared in the ad campaign; I would have been very disappointed if she had. To me, she was a legend above all others, and "above" that sort of thing.

Where would DL's legacy be without Merman?

DL and Merman have this legacy in common. They are long forgotten, but were once enjoyed by racist white fags.

R477 yes

Pearl Bailey was always cooning for the white folk. That's what my grandma always said. Stands to reason that she is a another favorite of Iowa Johnny and his fellow posters - aka - the "friends" in his head. Ancient racist white man who don't understand singing. Ethel couldn't sing. Who knows if Pearl Bailey could? She half talked her way through everything and bugged her eyes out and crouched down low and cooned around for the amusement of white people. Disgusting.

Yes, R479, disgusting and sinful.

Yes Pearl Bailey was disgusting. I think saying sinful might be a bit far. Too many black performers took on this role and a token white husband back then. But Pearl Bailey hammed it up and made a fool of herself working for Nixon and thinking she was some white person's idea of a black good person. Ambassador of love. We studied her in hate your race 101. Yes, sinful is maybe right. Nat King Cole, Della Reese, Dinah Washington, Sarah Vaughan, Ella, Johnny Mathis and Motown didn't sell themselves out like that. Not even Diahann Carroll. Pearl Bailey had no dignity. At a time when dignity was needed. To say she was a great entertainer is silly. She squandered what she had to play a sambo mammy aunty jemima eye popping fool to make white folk feel more comfortable. She didn't start out that way but she ended up cooning around TV and sucking Nixon's dick. She didn't seem hurt or embarrassed by it either. A good time was had by all.

R481, Pearl also sucked LBJ's massive dick. He and Lady Bird loved Hello, Dolly!, with Channing and then with Pearl.

I remember them attending a Broadway performance and Pearl having them join her on stage at the curtain call.

Pearl Bailey was the Kanye of her day. What becomes a legend first.

[quote]r461 One thing you always have to remember about Ethel Merman was that part of what made her a star was just the sheer size of her voice

[italic]Part [/italic]of what made her popular??

Oh, my sides!

I was never a fan of Dinah's singing voice, but I did like her duets.

Iowa Johnny is so right about Pearl. She was a first-class cunt to Dianne Carroll (stealing "Don't Like Goodbyes:" from her á la Merman and others) during previews of HOUSE OF FLOWERS.

Bailey also rimmed out Reagan.

What is so wonderful about Dinah is how gracious and giving she is to her guest stars. She's there to make THEM shine.

"Bailey also rimmed out Reagan."

Better her than me.

R486, I worked for the MITRE Corporation years ago and we hired Pearl to perform at a corporate function.

I was on the function committee and interacted with her before and after her performance.

She was most gracious to one and all and the audience loved her performance.

We had been instructed to have a cot backstage for her to rest before, during and after her performance due to her bad heart.

You are patently wrong R463 - acknowledging her place in theater history and the fact that she was, indeed, a big star in her day does not in any way require that we "celebrate" her, enjoy her work, or feel that she is anything other than a star from the past who is now regarded as a curious relic because performance styles and audience tastes have changed drastically in the last 60 years. You don't have to agree with, or like, current trends, attitudes and preferences just as the rest of us don't have to fall all over ourselves unconditionally loving what was loved in 1944 if, in fact, we don't actually like it.

This whole thread is so damed crazy -- if you look at the OP he made a ridiculous statement, perhaps even a troll post, about how Merman was a "top gay diva of the 70s and 80s" which implies that she was part of the mainstream gay zeitgeist of that era, and not someone who was already dated and mostly popular with older gay men; not guys then in their 20s & 30's. When people, sanely, replied that her heyday was decades before the 1970s and she is someone most people currently under 50 don't even remember, much less listen to and love, Merman fans went into overdrive with the crazy. R32 even said "gay guys under 50 still obsess about her and listen to her recordings religiously," which is either insane Meremanstandom of the first order or straight up trolling -- given this thread it is impossible to tell.

She was a big star. She had a very particular, not conventionally beautiful voice, and a performance style that was not everyone's cup of tea; especially now. The people that still love her are vastly outnumbered by people that don't care for her; and both camps are now vastly outnumbered by people that have never heard of her.

Sic Transit Gloria Mundi, the worm has turned, and Ethel has left the auditorium. Good Day, sir. I said GOOD DAY!!

[quote] You don't have to agree with, or like, current trends, attitudes and preferences just as the rest of us don't have to fall all over ourselves unconditionally loving what was loved in 1944 if, in fact, we don't actually like it.

You're saying it's wrong for him to speak for the rest of us, and yet now [bold]you're[/bold] speaking for the rest of us. Your opinions are not mine.

R490 - I'm speaking for the many people on this thread who DON'T LIKE MERMAN - you are free to love the shit out of her. Try and up your reading comprehension skills. R489

I love your post R489. You certainly speak for me. Elegantly. You gave a good synopsis of this thread and its wacky trajectory. You avoided calling Ethel Merman stans delusional. Excellent work. Thank you!

[quote]Iowa Johnny is so right about Pearl.

r486 Not that it matters, but I have not posted anything about Pearl.

I now agree completely with r431. I tried to stick it out, but the thread has become not only sour for me but no longer any any fun, so I'll be staying away also. I know that this will only disappoint the hateful trolls because it will deprive them of a target, but I'm sure they'll waste no time in finding others. It astonishes me that a thread about a musical theatre artist could generate such hate. To the posters who offered thoughtful and reasonable replies--whatever their opinions on Ethel Merman--thank you. They were fun, often insightful and illuminating, and I learned a lot. To the haters: Vescere Bracis Meis.

Dinah & Peg

[quote] Try and up your reading comprehension skills. [R489]

Try [bold]to[/bold] up your grammatical skills, hon.

LISA!

It's Diahann, r486...

This Merman thread is getting as drawn-out as the flat-chested Vivien Leigh thread.

Why is it the people who give us the Goodbye freaky fags! bit always stick around?

Ethel...