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NYU prof: 'Hundreds, if not thousands' of universities will soon be 'walking dead'

As colleges attempt to recover from the pandemic and prepare for future semesters, a New York University professor estimates that the next 5-10 years will see one to two thousand schools going out of business.

Scott Galloway, professor of marketing at the New York University Leonard N. Stern School of Business told Hari Sreenivasan on PBS’ “Amanpour and Co.” that many colleges are likely to suffer to the point of eventual extinction as a result of the coronavirus.

He sets up a selection of tier-two universities as those most likely not to walk away from the shutdown unscathed. During the pandemic, wealthy companies have not struggled to survive. Similarly, he says, “there is no luxury brand like higher education,” and the top names will emerge from coronavirus without difficulty.

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by Anonymousreply 164Last Saturday at 6:51 PM

Most of them will deserve it. At least those who charge sky-high tuition funneled into sports, “amenities,” and just about everything except the actual education of their students.

by Anonymousreply 106/28/2020

Will Langley fold???

by Anonymousreply 206/28/2020

Quit posting links to that Right-wing garbage site. F&F

by Anonymousreply 306/28/2020

High likelihood he's correct, tho.

by Anonymousreply 406/28/2020

Charging the same amount of tuition for online courses showed how bloated the universities have become and how so much of the tuition has nothing to do with education. An entire generation of kids went unnecessarily deep into debt when we could have received a perfectly good education for a fraction of the money. It's all about the tenured faculty and the unnecessary layers upon layers of diversity and equity bureaucrats.

This is way overdue!

by Anonymousreply 506/28/2020

They're producing idiots anyway, so no big loss.

Those lazy professors and greedy admins need to find real jobs anyway.

by Anonymousreply 606/28/2020

[quote] During the pandemic, wealthy companies have not struggled to survive.

Post secondary institutions are wealthy companies so I guess that statement isn't justified.

by Anonymousreply 706/28/2020

Since when is NYU a right wing place?

by Anonymousreply 806/28/2020

R8 I think he meant the Campus Reform website.

Which I never got? Why do you care where it was published if it makes a good point?

by Anonymousreply 906/28/2020

Hudson University better get shitcanned.

by Anonymousreply 1006/28/2020

Yes it’s rough and many paradigms for teaching are being changed already. But there will be a vaccine in the next year and that will be that. Recovery may take a while (and would have been well under way if not for Trump).

by Anonymousreply 1106/28/2020

He's right though.

Who they hell is going to pay $50,000 a year for 8 zoom classes? If most classes will be on-line how can universities justify charging library fees, building fees, etc.? How could they then justify the enormous administrative bloat? They're going to need a lot more IT specialists than assistant provosts in the future.

The other thing is that Universities both big and small in major urban centers and smaller rural cities rely to a great degree on foreign students. 10-20% of the student body at many universities. They almost always pay full tuition. Will they be allowed to come? Will they even want to come?

The College Industrial Complex is screwed.

by Anonymousreply 1206/28/2020

America is pretty unique in the huge number of absurd bullshit colleges there are. No one from out of state, never mind from another country has ever heard of these places, and therefore the degrees have little worth professionally. I am in academia and some of my own cousins attended American colleges I have never heard of.

by Anonymousreply 1306/28/2020

[quote] Hudson University better get shitcanned

A pandemic is nothing to them. Child’s play.

by Anonymousreply 1406/28/2020

R13 the number of Chinese, Indians, South Koreans and Pakistanis studying in the US say otherwise.

by Anonymousreply 1506/28/2020

R12 But you're not paying for the Zoom classes, you're paying solely for the eventual diploma with an Ivy's name on it, that's all.

by Anonymousreply 1606/28/2020

[quote] No one from out of state, never mind from another country has ever heard of these places, and therefore the degrees have little worth professionally.

I was just about to post that, R15.

Xi Xiaoping, Won Bok Lee, and Sanjay Pradesh can all take their fancy college degrees from "studying abroad" in the US, and get good jobs back home.

That's how crap colleges have been making so much money for all these years.

And that's why they're going to fail, thanks to the WuFlu.

by Anonymousreply 1706/28/2020

Library fees already primarily pay for access to electronic databases of academic journals. Electronic books will be ramped up in the next year. So those fees are justified. Hopefully faculty will do their jobs. What's not justified is a administrative salaries and offices which have exploded in the last few decades. But even if we return to normal in a year this will make parents rethink education costs. Things will change permanently.

by Anonymousreply 1806/28/2020

That's great news. We will no longer need the racist cunt Betsy DeVos then.

by Anonymousreply 1906/28/2020

[quote] A pandemic is nothing to them. Child’s play.

Exactly, and besides - the pandemic story arc will be ending before the next season at the very latest.

by Anonymousreply 2006/28/2020

[quote] It's all about the tenured faculty

Yeah...that's where all the money goes... /s

[quote] Who they hell is going to pay $50,000 a year for 8 zoom classes?

I don't really get this argument. If you get the same education delivered online as you would get face-to-face then it should of the same value.

by Anonymousreply 2106/28/2020

[quote]An entire generation of kids went unnecessarily deep into debt when we could have received a perfectly good education for a fraction of the money.

That's the point, to sink as much of the US population into debt as possible. They want us broke, stupid, and compliant.

All the world's elite are for the US population becoming more like China and Russia. State dependent, nurtured politically happy with the "lesser" of two evils.

It's incredible how stupid and clueless so much of the public has been to the machinations of the power elite through our own government. It's not like they tried very hard to hide what they were doing.

by Anonymousreply 2206/28/2020

Government schools don’t educate, they indoctrinate.

Let them burn.

by Anonymousreply 2306/28/2020

[quote] It's incredible how stupid and clueless so much of the public has been to the machinations of the power elite through our own government.

Now is that lizard people or the Elders of Zion who you think are behind these "machinations"?

by Anonymousreply 2406/28/2020

Just like public schools, instructors will have double the students in online classes.

Half not needed.

by Anonymousreply 2506/28/2020

Silly R24

The lizard people ARE the Elders of Zion.

And the British Royal Family whose real name is Weinstein, not Windsor.

by Anonymousreply 2606/28/2020

[quote] instructors will have double the students in online classes

How do you think this works? Do you think professors are just lying around with all the free time in the world? Do you think tests grade themselves? Do you think papers read themselves? Do you think professors just sit in their offices watching youtube?

by Anonymousreply 2706/28/2020

[quote]Government schools don’t educate, they indoctrinate.

What? Who's talking about "government schools?"

by Anonymousreply 2806/28/2020

[quote]Do you think professors just sit in their offices watching youtube?

They did at Trump University.

by Anonymousreply 2906/28/2020

[quote] They did at Trump University.

And clearly Trump University is your typical university. /s

by Anonymousreply 3006/28/2020

did i say professors do nothing, crazy prof?

online classes have higher amounts of students. the standard. period.

do the math and take a xanax.

and polish up your resume.

by Anonymousreply 3106/28/2020

[quote] online classes have higher amounts of students. the standard. period.

And people who teach that way teach fewer classes because though a single class may have more students a prof still needs time to grade and interact with students.

by Anonymousreply 3206/28/2020

Maybe all the useless admin positions will be eliminated. Talk about a waste of money.

by Anonymousreply 3306/28/2020

[quote] Why do you care where it was published if it makes a good point?

You should always consider the fucking source.

by Anonymousreply 3406/28/2020

Many community college enrollments are up now, which always happens during recessions. But also, recent surveying from Gallup and other organizations and think tanks has been showing for a couple of years that younger students trust community colleges have their best interests in mind more than four-year universities do, but especially compared to privates.

Sadly, the predatory online for-profits are still well regarded by black Americans. Those companies invest a lot of money in customer service to make students feel less intimidated but they perform poorly.

by Anonymousreply 3506/28/2020

R1 The obsession with “amenities" is one of the worst things to happen with education. I went to one of the best schools in America and lived in what was basically a cement closet. I live near a second rate state university now, and the amenities they have there are ridiculous. Shit like a fact three story gym, along with smaller gyms in all the dorms, multiple swimming pools.

by Anonymousreply 3606/28/2020

What does he mean by "two tier brand'?

by Anonymousreply 3706/28/2020

R37 He means Harvard is Saks/Prada, NYU is Nordstrom/Christian Siriano, four-year publics are Target and everything else is Wal-Mart.

Some people are becoming more honest about the reality that the most highly regarded universities are regarded highly because of their name brands and their powerful networks. It’s branding. That’s all it is.

by Anonymousreply 3806/28/2020

R38 - I think University of Phoenix might fall under an Etsy tier.

by Anonymousreply 3906/28/2020

R38 Overstock

by Anonymousreply 4006/28/2020

I get annoyed with these doom and gloom scenarios. Once there are is a vaccine everything will go back to the way it was. The only thing that may change is that you may see more people teleworking.

by Anonymousreply 4106/28/2020

No, R41, colleges and universities have burned through money. They had to transition to remote teaching and invest tons of capital in equipment, including (especially for community colleges) loaner or gifted laptops for students. They had to upgrade online systems and security and to train staff. Some students are demanding refunds because they didn’t agree to online coursework. Universities have lost room and board revenue. It’s been a huge cash drain for institutions. They didn’t just pause and take a few months off.

by Anonymousreply 4206/28/2020

College tuition is so ridiculous these days, if I were 18 now I would go to a community college and get my associate degree, then transfer to finish my bachelor's degree while I lived at home. That way the student loans would be minimal. Unless you have parents who can just write a check for tens of thousands of dollars every few months, which is an option most people don't have.

by Anonymousreply 4306/28/2020

nc has guaranteed acceptance, depending on your performance, to state universities. you have to do well.

oh, and the class size thing goes to public school teachers too. drastic cuts.

new world.

by Anonymousreply 4406/28/2020

College is now nursery school for overgrown children who are not yet ready for the real world. It's a multi-billion dollar scam. I think we learned my useful and valuable information by the sixth grade than these people do with a degree, years wasted, and tens of thousands of dollars in personal debt.

by Anonymousreply 4506/28/2020

R43 I feel like when college savings funds became the norm, universities thought about how much could be saved over 18 years and just took the limit off what they’d ever have considered charging before.

I graduated from college in 2001. My parents did not go to college. My mom used to resent that the news always ran stories that said things like, “four years of college now costs a quarter million dollars! Find out how you can save for your kids’ future at 5:00!” And she was like, “that’s bullshit!!” My sister and I both transferred from a community college to a state university, and yes, we commuted from home. And we both worked close to full time throughout college, and we paid our tuition ourselves and so we worked our asses off in school. I graduated with honors and high distinction and I think something like $12,000 in debt, which seemed like a lot to me.

by Anonymousreply 4606/28/2020

I live in a college town and the number of luxury apartments and student housing being built is astounding and I don’t see how they will be able to sustain it or continue to find students that can afford it.

Also I think the campaign of “college for everyone “ and “you won’t do well in life if you don’t have a college degree “ was a bit misguided and for some students a trade school or a 2 year community college program is much more feasible.

by Anonymousreply 4706/28/2020

I know tradesmen like carpenters who make six figures a year and live upper-middle class lifestyles. My car mechanic (he owns his own garage) has a big house in a nice suburb and also has a vacation home in Florida.

by Anonymousreply 4806/28/2020

R47 If the colleges in your town are public, then it’s possible (likely) that they keep building physical space because getting infrastructure investments passed as local bond initiatives is an easy way for colleges and universities to increase their assets. Most people vote in favor of education, and so when state legislators cut funding for programs, colleges often will ask for bonds to grow their capital through building projects. It’s not liquid money, but in theory buildings can be rented out etc.

by Anonymousreply 4906/28/2020

R47 They just tell students to "take out more loans."

R48 My brother got a computer science degree and became a mechanic after being laid off from his IT job. He makes more money at it.

by Anonymousreply 5006/28/2020

[quote]I think University of Phoenix might fall under an Etsy tier.

My choices would be Dollar Tree, Rent-A-Center, and a random thrift store outlet.

by Anonymousreply 5106/28/2020

[quote] I don't really get this argument. If you get the same education delivered online as you would get face-to-face then it should of the same value.

College is the whole experience.

Living away from home, meeting new people, joining fraternities, sororities, clubs, athletics, and a ton of socializing - all in person.

You take that away, and you take away 2/3 of the college experience.

It's also an exchange of ideas in a personal setting. Online interaction just won't cut it.

by Anonymousreply 5206/28/2020

Totally agree - its a "market correction" for the education industry. When many young people are saddled with debt to, in many cases, obtain a job that does not require a degree. The degree is merely a screening tool for HR.

by Anonymousreply 5306/28/2020

Online Universities really had a head start on traditional colleges and universities, and they are going to benefit greatly from this new reality.

University of Phoenix, DeVry, Southern New Hampshire University, etc.

These were all a joke, just a few years ago, and now they are going to be at the forefront of higher education.

by Anonymousreply 5406/28/2020

[quote] colleges and universities have burned through money. They had to transition to remote teaching and invest tons of capital in equipment, including (especially for community colleges) loaner or gifted laptops for students. They had to upgrade online systems and security and to train staff

Don't forget the athletics programs.

NCAA schools bring in huge amounts of money from college football, basketball, swimming, etc. Particularly if the school is a top-tier athletics school.

Without the money coming in the athletics programs, most schools are really going to suffer.

by Anonymousreply 5506/28/2020

Harvard will thrive. State university systems will survive cause of tax dollars are lower tuition. It's those middle range private ones that are threatened. NYU will survive. Miami University in Ohio, may not. It's that range he's talking about.

by Anonymousreply 5606/29/2020

The problem with "get my associate degree at a community college, then get my real degree another two" is that almost nobody manages to actually DO it. It almost ALWAYS ends up turning into 5 or 6 semesters post-Associates.

Florida learned this the hard way, and turned its community colleges into 4-year schools that at *least* have enough academic diversity to allow students to take the "101" level classes for potential majors while they're still in years 1 & 2. Otherwise, half the kids get to year 3, discover they don't like their major (or aren't cut out for it), and end up wasting at least a semester or two recovering from it.

by Anonymousreply 5706/29/2020

If things get tough, all adjuncts will be fired. Tenure will remain but new lines will disappear. Faculty will be furloughed for certain weeks to reduce pay. College tuition will not go up.

I think the article is incorrect because the one thing students have discovered from zoom teaching is how much they hate it. Also foreign students (especially Chinese students) are increasingly interested in attending university in the United States, where they are briefly free of their parents and can have more fun than they could in China.

Two years and things will be back to normal.

by Anonymousreply 5806/29/2020

What I learned from having to do so much remotely is that I hate having to do so much remotely. The students I know also hated taking their classes online, once they got over the "ooh, cool, don't have to go to school" thing. And, we're all introverts. The extroverts will never give up the college social experience.

by Anonymousreply 5906/29/2020

Ivy League classes are taught by teaching assistants, not the star, academics that draw the students and give the universities their allure. Everyone has zoom fatigue already.

by Anonymousreply 6006/29/2020

No, professors teach courses at Ivy Leagues. Graduate students, as a rule, lead discussion groups in larger classes. Professors may lead them in smaller ones.. The lectures are given by professors and they are available for office hours. This is one of the appeals of Ivy League universities. Unless things have changed greatly since the late 70s/early 80s when I was at my Ivy.

by Anonymousreply 6106/29/2020

American govt prefers to jail people rather than educate so this should work out well for them

by Anonymousreply 6206/29/2020

At Dartmouth you get real professors

by Anonymousreply 6306/29/2020

A lot of community colleges were already offering about half of their classes online. A lot of students like online classes because of the flexibility, and if you are a self-motivated learner and the class is well-designed, you learn just as much as you would sitting in a classroom a couple of times a week. For working students with families, sometimes online is the ONLY way they can go. I realize it doesn't work for everyone, but education has been working towards a 50/50 online-in person model for the last 10 years.

by Anonymousreply 6406/29/2020

[quote] A lot of community colleges were already offering about half of their classes online

Which is totally fine.

But when you are paying over $30,000 a year, you want the full experience.

CC's cost about $2000 per semester, which is a deal - online or in person.

At $30,000 to $60,000 per year, people rightfully expect more for their money.

As someone else said, the amenities are part of it. The Olympic sized pool, the ivy covered residence halls, the full service dining rooms, the state of the art facilities, and the social activities.

I absolutely loved my college experience, and cannot imagine missing out on the campus life, while still having to pay the same price.

It's just not worth it.

You're better off going to a CC.

by Anonymousreply 6506/29/2020

I never understood why anyone would pay thousands of extra dollars to go to a no-name private college when they had an excellent state college available right around the corner.

by Anonymousreply 6606/29/2020

Another issue is that parents are wanting their kids to stay closer to home, especially with all the uncertainty in the world.

From the global pandemic, to the violent protests in the streets, to the killer cops (if you're black), parents are probably saying to their kids "Fuck no. You're staying home."

And I don't blame them.

by Anonymousreply 6706/29/2020

[quote] Professors teach courses at Ivy Leagues.

Unfortunately, while many of the professors have a string of degrees, publications, and prizes, they cant teach worth shit

by Anonymousreply 6806/29/2020

[quote] It's those middle range private ones that are threatened. NYU will survive. Miami University in Ohio, may not. It's that range he's talking about.

Those middle range private colleges are just degree mills. They get not-so-great students who load up on federal loans which are used to finance the college.

by Anonymousreply 6906/29/2020

[quote] University of Phoenix, DeVry, Southern New Hampshire University, etc.mThese were all a joke, just a few years ago, and now they are going to be at the forefront of higher education.

They are still a joke. If I see a job applicant with degrees from any of these, I immediately ignore.

by Anonymousreply 7006/29/2020

Well you'd better get off your high horse R70, because you're going to see a lot more graduates from these online schools.

Especially if this pandemic drags on.

by Anonymousreply 7106/29/2020

Community colleges span a broad spectrum. Yes, some have great online programs because they have the resources to produce them and they serve older working students well. But most community colleges are small and community based, and most of those did not have strong online programs set up pre-COVID because they didn’t have the resources. Also, a lot of faculty—who at community colleges tend to be poorly paid adjuncts—have refused to teach online because they have no experience doing it and they have said that “the classroom experience” is necessary to learning what they teach. College leaders have battled with faculty about their inflexibility in recent years, as more students have asked for more convenient online courses, and by and large the faculty have won because they are hard to replace when they are so poorly compensated. As expensive as it has been, COVID has been an opportunity for many community colleges to force instructors to go online and therefore force them to admit that it can be done.

Community colleges serve A LOT more adult working and minority students than traditional four-year institutions, and their primary competition is online private universities that are more convenient and comfortable to busy working people who have children, etc. Phoenix et al. intentionally poach would-be community college students. And while community colleges do not generally “make money” from tuition the way expensive private universities do, they do gauge their success in part by enrollment numbers, and they are self-critical about losing students to Phoenix types that don’t care at all about whether students learn anything or not.

by Anonymousreply 7206/29/2020

[quote]I don't really get this argument. If you get the same education delivered online as you would get face-to-face then it should of the same value.

But online teaching is nowhere near the level of face-to-face teaching within an academic setting, and only someone who doesn't understand what education is would claim that they're the same.

Also, if you're not in the university buildings, then it doesn't need to pay for building construction and maintenance, utilities, service staff, etc. while you do have to pay for your internet connection and any other expenses you have while working from home.

by Anonymousreply 7306/29/2020

Those aren't online schools r71. In fact, online schools don't exist.

by Anonymousreply 7406/29/2020

I studied English and then creative writing, in great part because of classroom discussions. An online message board for discussions would not have been nearly as engaging or as instructive for me. I work as an editor and in communications generally, and despite the general dismissiveness of studying English, I’ve been served well so far. I’m mid-career at 42; there’s no telling what the future will bring.

If I were in college now and had to take an online program, I have no doubt at all that I would be inclined to learn computer programming, IT, cybersecurity or something else much less collaborative and discussion based. My friends who work in tech generally work remotely most of the time and do not have very collaborative jobs, whereas I do. Their jobs are very task-oriented and precision based, whereas mine involves working with people and making a lot of intuitive calculations based on speculating what people think and want. So from the language aspect of studying English and writing to the aspect of discerning psychological insights to being able to discuss and workshop without judgment, the education I received that sometimes seemed impractical actually sharpened skills that I have had to put into practice all my working life, and which I don’t believe I would have acquired through online education. I don’t know if those skills are sustainable at this point, though. As I work with more young people, I find their modes of communicating and their assumptions to be less intuitive and sometimes alienating in a robotic way.

by Anonymousreply 7506/29/2020

[quote] I feel like when college savings funds became the norm, universities thought about how much could be saved over 18 years and just took the limit off what they’d ever have considered charging before.

This is simply not true. On every one of these threads we have linked articles that show the rise in college costs are directly related to the pullback in funding by the state and local governments.

[quote] They just tell students to "take out more loans."

We absolutely do not. And the federal student loan program doesn't allow for endless loan taking.

[quote] The problem with "get my associate degree at a community college, then get my real degree another two" is that almost nobody manages to actually DO it. It almost ALWAYS ends up turning into 5 or 6 semesters post-Associates.

Schools do every thing they can to prevent this. I spent several hours in meetings over the past few months trying to coordinate the transfer process for my school so that students take the right classes at their community college and can graduate with two years at my school. But I can't tell you how many students waste time on classes at community colleges that they are told flat out will not transfer.

From my perspective, students are not actively participating in the decision making about their education. They go to college without a purpose. They treat it like they are being educated against their will like it was high school. They blame everyone else for their failures. They don't fight for an education; they fight against it.

If you don't know what you are getting a degree for, go to a community college and figure it out. If college isn't right for you, don't go. Schools can't make these decisions for students. I want full classes, but I want engaged students. I ask each of my students in the first day of class why they are here in this class, at this university, on this planet. 90% have no answer. They need to figure out the answer to those questions first. And they just don't.

by Anonymousreply 7606/29/2020

[quote] I want engaged students. I ask each of my students in the first day of class why they are here in this class, at this university, on this planet. 90% have no answer. They need to figure out the answer to those questions first. And they just don't.

That alone should tell you that most of them don't belong there.

A college education used to be valuable for a reason!

Before the 1980's, kids who went to college had a purpose. They were the best and the brightest, and went on to have meaningful careers in their chosen areas of study.

Everybody else either went to some vocational school, or went directly into the workforce. Because there were actual jobs that could support a family and enable you to buy a house back then, with out a college degree.

From the 1980's on, there was a push for EVERYONE to go to college, which was ridiculous. NOT EVERYONE SHOULD GO TO COLLEGE.

Yet now, schools brag about their 90% college bound numbers and high schools are selling this load of crap about how every high school graduate absolutely must go, or you're a total fucking failure.

It's a ridiculous money making scheme for colleges and universities, and the high schools are in on it.

Never mind the standardized testing companies, which make a killing off of college bound students.

It's all a fucking racket.

If a re-set does happen, then it's about time.

Most kids are not college material. Period.

by Anonymousreply 7706/29/2020

I am employed at a Big Ten university. I wish it would go under due to all of this but sadly I think we're going to survive. I've been wanting to quit for a year+ but don't have the balls.

by Anonymousreply 7806/29/2020

I agree with most of what you say, r77. Students who don't know why they are going to college either need to figure it out or need to stay home.

However, I don't think there is some being "money-making scheme" hatched by schools and the testing companies. And I would argue about just how many students really shouldn't be in college. But we generally agree.

by Anonymousreply 7906/29/2020

I agree that a lot of kids aren't college material, but the reality today is that you can't even get an admin job without a college degree. If you're going to work in a white collar world, college is a necessity.

by Anonymousreply 8006/29/2020

R55 Most colleges athletics lose money. Only a handful of schools make money off their sports teams (Notre Dame, Michigan, Alabama, etc. Basically all the ones you expect), but those make a fortune for their schools.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 8106/29/2020

R57 I briefly taught at a community college in Florida. It was a joke. There were a bunch of technical and certificate programs there that I was flat-out told only existed so that the school could get money out of people who were too dumb to take college classes. There were students there that had completed multiple certificate programs. It doesn't look like they offer it anymore (I checked), but they used to offer a certificate in "E Commerce" which included the class (I swear I'm not joking) "Intro to Windows." And this was in the 2010s.

They currently offer an "Office Specialist" certificate where one of the classes is "Word Processing."

by Anonymousreply 8206/29/2020

This demographic collapse was due long ago. COVID just pushed a lot of shaky institutions over the cliff, which was going to happen anyway.

by Anonymousreply 8306/29/2020

[quote] America is pretty unique in the huge number of absurd bullshit colleges there are.

It’s a capitalist country. It’s rampant, unregulated capitalism allows for all kinds of people to spend their money on all kinds of things. Some people actually *want* to waste their money on evangelical bible colleges where the college president is, say, a closeted gay quasi-celebrity man who pays much younger, much better looking men to have sex with his wife.

Now, why would you want to take that choice away from someone?

by Anonymousreply 8406/29/2020

^^^^^

Its

by Anonymousreply 8506/29/2020

BonniePrinceCharlie, SylviaFowler, MissLucy y'all in danger, girls!!

by Anonymousreply 8606/29/2020

R85 It's "it's".

"It’s a capitalist country" can be "It is a capitalist country."

"It’s rampant" can be "It is rampant."

by Anonymousreply 8706/29/2020

[quote] they used to offer a certificate in "E Commerce" which included the class (I swear I'm not joking) "Intro to Windows." And this was in the 2010s.

[quote] They currently offer an "Office Specialist" certificate where one of the classes is "Word Processing."

Don't be so smug.

People have to learn computer literacy somewhere. That's an important function of Community Colleges.

You'd be surprised how many people (some older) use these courses, because they've never touched a computer before.

There's no need to make fun of them.

by Anonymousreply 8806/29/2020

Goog thing he doesn't teach anymore, r88 .

by Anonymousreply 8906/29/2020

I disagree with everything the Trump admin does, but that doesn’t mean I agree with everything Obama did.

As soon as he was elected in 2009, President Obama set a goal of having the highest share of degree holders in the world—a position we once had and then lost to other countries. My work dovetailed with some people in his administration who boasted this, and I consistently said, “OK, that sounds good—but WHY? Is it just for bragging rights? Or is there anything more to this than the sheer numbers of degrees? Does the quality matter? Does applicability of degree matter? Do skills or critical thinking matter?”

As it turned out, sadly, it was all about numbers. Community college alumni were seen as low-hanging fruit and they began to hunt down former students and award “reverse-transfer degrees,” which were given to people whose former credits plus further education and work were considered equivalent to degrees, and so they were sent a diploma and chalked down as new degrees to inflate numbers. The City Colleges of Chicago boasted a HUGE increase in degree completion rates as a result of this and its president got awards and media and other speaking engagements—but of course the numbers crashed after there were no more alumni to hand degrees to.

When it becomes more about (or all about) numbers than about quality of education, then an education system has failed in my opinion.

I feel like I had a pretty strong public school education in northern Virginia (though I am now learning I learned some fucked-up spins on American history in that system). Some people I have known who went to schools in other states had abysmal public schooling and it really shows. And while I was brought up to be pretty condemning of homeschooling in general, one of the most brilliant people I’ve ever worked with was home schooled, obviously by smart people who taught her well—but she was seriously lacking in social skills and self-conscious about it.

Anyway, education should be about imparting knowledge and higher education should be about improving specialized skills and critical thinking ability. That it ever became about toting around a prestige-brand logo as a sign of social ranking is a tragedy.

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by Anonymousreply 9006/29/2020

I don’t even know if it matters in today’s world. Young people might be better off working out and investing in cosmetic surgery, and posting half-naked photos on Instagram and sexually explicit paywalled content than going to college. If they are photogenic, they can rake in millions over a few years in endorsements and direct monthly transfers, and then invest in real estate and let the money make itself.

I’m really not even kidding.

I get a sinking feeling every time I see posts like the one currently trending about Daily Beast “travel editor” William O’Connor, who is a skin model who is paid by what purports to be a journalism organization to post photos of himself shirtless in various luxury accommodations. Or Aaron Schock, who is a depraved, soulless criminal whore with an ardent fan club.

People do not need educations or intelligence or decency to do well in this country today. In fact, some of those things are limitations that delay raking in cash.

by Anonymousreply 9106/29/2020

r91 I think if I were a college-aged person today I would probably try the Instagram route. Some of those kids are making bank, as you said. I think if I were that age it would be too tempting not to try.

by Anonymousreply 9206/29/2020

R91, you just described this girl. She dropped out of college to strip full-time. She's had breast implants, butt implants, lip injections and a nose job. Her plan is to invest in real estate when she ages out of stripping.

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by Anonymousreply 9306/29/2020

Yes R92 and they know it. Aunt Becky’s daughter was doing very well for herself as a vapid social media slut, and her idiot mother fucked it up by breaking laws to get her into USC. Her daughter knew better: being pretty and dumb will get her rich, and give her a future free of financial worries.

by Anonymousreply 9406/29/2020

[quote]It doesn't look like they offer it anymore (I checked), but they used to offer a certificate in "E Commerce" which included the class (I swear I'm not joking) "Intro to Windows." And this was in the 2010s.

[quote]They currently offer an "Office Specialist" certificate where one of the classes is "Word Processing."

You are a fucking idiot. I work in a library and computer illiteracy is a real issue. We have to show people how to work a mouse sometimes. Even if these programs were shit overall, of course they would offer introductory computer courses. I hope you aren't allowed around people in whatever job you currently have.

by Anonymousreply 9506/29/2020

As much as we snark on Instahos, I really can't blame these kids at all. It's all about financial security. If you can make enough money to invest and live well for the rest of your life, just go ahead and show your ass and endorse things. It's all about living well and being free of financial insecurity.

by Anonymousreply 9606/29/2020

Isnt “Office Specialist” training just secretarial school for the 2020’s?

by Anonymousreply 9706/29/2020

Facebook keeps promoting an ad for a Harvard extension program “Certificate in Preparedness,” and most of the comments on the ad are mocking the program. It says nothing about what one will be prepared for—just “certificate in preparedness.” It’s an obvious scam and cash grab, and it astonishes me that Harvard University would do this bullshit and diminish its brand. It must make a lot of money from the egos of idiots who just have to have a Harvard logo on a piece of paper to feel worthy of being.

by Anonymousreply 9806/29/2020

For $11,600, you can buy a Harvard certificate that I guess entitles you to...troll people on Twitter?

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by Anonymousreply 9906/29/2020

Hope those endowments last a little while longer! My nephew is at a small college at PA getting a masters in Speech Language Pathology.

by Anonymousreply 10006/29/2020

Your loss, r70. You sound exhausting.

by Anonymousreply 10106/29/2020

R77 I couldn’t have said it better myself.

by Anonymousreply 10206/29/2020

R78 why do you want to quit so badly?

by Anonymousreply 10306/29/2020

[quote] Or Aaron Schock, who is a depraved, soulless criminal whore with an ardent fan club.

Lmao, r91, what a delightful turn of phrase. I agree with you.

by Anonymousreply 10406/29/2020

There were other serious problems with the "2+2" community college model:

1. Sequencing due to prerequisites. If you have exactly 4 semesters, it makes scheduling prerequisite classes harder. One stumble in one semester with one class can completely derail the next semester. Spreading them out over 4 years reduces the impact of a single stumble early-on.

2. Difficulty of pacing yourself. With 4 years, you can pace yourself by spreading your hardest classes around 8 semesters, instead of packing 2, 3, or 4 into a single brutal semester.

3. Targeted core classes. Computer Science majors need advanced Calculus & Physics, but do a lot better in classes that teach it in ways that feel directly relevant to them. Say, by presenting everything as a game-programming problem. Throwing CompSci majors into a class with a curriculum designed for premed students is going to make them *hate* advanced math, even if they previously LIKED math. With 4-year schools, you can have multiple Calculus II & III classes that teach the same concepts, but present them in ways tailored to maximize the engagement of CompSci, Engineering, Science, Premed, and *literal* Math-majors by presenting it in ways that make it feel interesting & relevant.

This is also why, prior to making community colleges 4-year colleges, Florida started allowing/encouraging community-college students to take 100-level "majors" classes during the summer trimester at whatever state university was affiliated with their community college between years 1 & 2... kids who did it were less likely to end up in the "discovered in year 3 they don't actually like their major" group.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think most of the advanced classes taught at Florida's former community colleges are *technically* "dual-enrolled" -- at the campus of the former community college, but taught by professors of the affiliated university (e.g., Broward [Community] College, vs Florida Atlantic University) & open to students from both.

I do know, however, that in the early 1990s, Florida's community colleges were a hot mess, and most students ended up on "the 5 year plan" (and often, 6).

by Anonymousreply 10506/29/2020

R99 that right there shows how even the most revered top-tier universities are turning into diploma mills. Expensive diploma mills, but that's how they cover their immense administrative overhead.

by Anonymousreply 10606/29/2020

My sister had a less than ideal community college transfer experience, with several courses not being accepted by her university. I followed her two years later and I was worried about that and so I asked me academic advisor to guide me toward courses that would transfer and all did. I ended up as a university junior with 30 credits and no grades. By then, I really had my act together and I got all As and graduated at the top of my class with almost no loan debt. It was an ideal experience.

Many community colleges now have what are called articulation agreements, which align courses and guarantee that credits will be awarded at selected universities when students transfer.

Northern Virginia Community College has articulation agreements even with the University of Virginia and William and Mary. But even more impressively, the college had *guaranteed admission* agreements with a lot of universities, including William and Mary, George Washington University, Virginia Tech and the engineering school at UVA.

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by Anonymousreply 10706/29/2020

R107 how long was this because I took classes at a community college and there were charts readily available on what would transfer to various state schools and what wouldn’t. This was in the mid 90s.

by Anonymousreply 10806/29/2020

I forgot to mention that real Harvard grads would see the "extension school" and look down on it. They know it's used as a cash cow. I also know a few smarmy people at work who went to the extension school for the explicit purpose of getting Harvard on their resumes, but it's not that hard to weed out.

by Anonymousreply 10906/29/2020

R109 Of course. But the people who participate in those extension programs are generally naive about the higher ed sector and they don’t understand that such programs are entirely non-selective and they are only barely more legitimate than Trump University. They dupe inexperienced people into paying tens of thousands of dollars on a logo.

by Anonymousreply 11006/29/2020

Remember when Tyra Banks went to Harvard? LMAO!

by Anonymousreply 11106/29/2020

They are offering free courses due to the 'rona.

by Anonymousreply 11206/29/2020

R66 because good public schools are looking for out of state students (see Asian) that will pay that tuition. Buffy can’t meet those standards so off to expensive play schools.

by Anonymousreply 11306/29/2020

R113 Yes, someone I know is married to an accomplished person who teaches part time at Johns Hopkins in addition to their real job. It’s JHU, but the program is unaccredited. When they took the teaching job, they were told that the program caters to primarily Chinese students, and because there is no intellectual property protection in China, those students can’t be expected not to plagiarize. Basically, it’s anything goes as long as they pay.

by Anonymousreply 11406/29/2020

Plagiarized? I bought that paper, so I own it!

by Anonymousreply 11506/29/2020

[quote]

No, it’s “its.”

“Its rampant capitalism.”

“Its” refers to America.

I know because I wrote it.

by Anonymousreply 11606/29/2020

You wrote:

[quote] It’s rampant, unregulated capitalism allows

If you think it's is correct there, you mean your sentence to say

[quote] It is rampant, unregulated capitalism allows...

You either meant "its" or you need another word in there ("It's rampant, unregulated capitalism THAT allows...") because right now you have two declined verbs in a clause without a conjunction.

by Anonymousreply 11706/29/2020

Another Freeper thread based on a pro-Trump web site. F&F

by Anonymousreply 11806/29/2020

It’s a UK thing, too.

It must only be me, because I’m sure Harvard and Oxford have assessed the cost/benefit of doing these cash-cow programs, but such programs have very severely degraded the esteem I used to have for elite universities.

You know, once you see a Versace shirt with one long sleeve and one short sleeve on a clearance rack in Marshall’s, you never really see Versace the same way again.

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by Anonymousreply 11906/29/2020

Campus Reform is an American conservative news website focused on higher education. It is operated by the Leadership Institute. It uses students as reporters.

The news site is known for conservative journalism, where it reports what it considers incidents of liberal bias and restrictions on free speech on American college campuses.

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by Anonymousreply 12006/29/2020

R120 In other words, it exists mainly to defend rapists.

by Anonymousreply 12106/29/2020

R119, that's not entirely fair. What you've linked to is an 8-week professional training course in one of the most vocational departments. The Said Business School is more of an attachment to the University of Oxford.

Oxford would never be seen dead offering its undergraduate degree programmes online, especially since most of the work for those is done in small tutorial classes (2-3 students) and the point is that the students discuss their ideas, their reading and their work.

by Anonymousreply 12206/29/2020

R122 Same with the Harvard online certificates in “preparation” and “social justice.” They’re not equivalent to Havard undergrad, but they’re capitalizing on the Harvard brand to keep the easy cash coming into Harvard’s fat coffers.

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by Anonymousreply 12306/29/2020

Yes, R123, I learned that watching Inspector Lewis. It also had the then young hawt Lawrence Fox.

by Anonymousreply 12406/29/2020

“It” is “America,” R117. And America has unregulated capitalism. “Its” is possessive. Unregulated capitalism belongs to America.

“This movie is boring. Its premise is unbelievable.”

“Its” refers to the movie. The movie has a premise. The premise belongs to the movie. “Its” is the possessive, referring to something the movie possesses. It possesses a premise. “It” is the movie. The premise it has is unbelievable.

The unregulated capitalism of America is one of “its” defining features. “Its” refers to America.

by Anonymousreply 12506/29/2020

Only in America can debates about the virtues of community colleges versus Ivy-league colleges be intermixed with an argument about something as basic as discerning possessive pronouns from contractions.

by Anonymousreply 12606/29/2020

Now eCornell ads on Instagram.

Look at even one of these scammy certification websites and all the social media ads show up like cockroaches to a pancake party.

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by Anonymousreply 12706/29/2020

[quote] “It” is “America,” [R117]. And America has unregulated capitalism. “Its” is possessive. Unregulated capitalism belongs to America.

Why are you addressing this to me? I was correcting the original "It's."

by Anonymousreply 12806/29/2020

ha! if you don't think "liberal" universities are not concerned by the bottom line!

by Anonymousreply 12906/29/2020

Of course they all. All universities are businesses that must be solvent. The difference is that some (public, generally state-supported institutions) are not for profit organizations that have a fiduciary responsibility to their students and communities, some are private not-for-profit colleges, and then there are for-profit universities whose real mission is to make money off students and not to benefit the students.

by Anonymousreply 13006/29/2020

To the person who asked above, community colleges have had articulation or compact agreements with surrounding universities since at least the 90s. That's when I went to community college. There was a book in the advisory/counseling area that had all the compact agreements listed with which courses fulfilled their gen ed requirements. There were also agreements with local universities and colleges that stated that if you finished your AS/AA degree from that community college, you were automatically considered to have fulfilled your gen ed requirements, too, and could move directly into your junior/senior major classes even if those gen ed requirements didn't exactly match the university's requirements.

This was one of the top-ranked community colleges in the nation, though. Even some of the shitty ones around here probably still don't have them and, honestly, I think my former community college has gone downhill since then, too. Adjuncts and online crap classes as far as the eye can see now.

by Anonymousreply 13106/29/2020

Give it a fucking rest R117. Why do you HAVE to be right? Correcting other peoples' grammar is rude. But one post here or there is part of the DL culture. To go on and on about it like this makes you a little pill.

by Anonymousreply 13206/29/2020

The grammar trolls are beyond tedious. A conversational message board like DL that gets hundreds of posts per day and where people post their random thoughts is not an academic paper or a work document. A misplaced apostrophe or a slight misspelling of a word and these fuckwits get all pissy. Bunch of fucking losers.

by Anonymousreply 13306/29/2020

[quote] Why do you HAVE to be right? Correcting other peoples' grammar is rude. But one post here or there is part of the DL culture. To go on and on about it like this makes you a little pill.

I did not go on and on. That was my first post in this thread on grammar, as my signature indicated. Go ahead and use the ignore function to check.

All I was doing was following up to try and explain since an "oh, dear" doesn't explain.

Arguing with a grammar corrector is stupid, especially if you are wrong. If you don't care, don't care and don't respond. And that will be the end of it.

by Anonymousreply 13406/30/2020

Those of you claiming college students in the 1980s went to college with a “purpose” as opposed to the students of today are dead wrong. I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life when I entered college. But the message back then was “It is okay if you don’t know what you want to do with your life because you’ll figure it out once you start taking different college classes.” The other great lie back then was “in the future, liberal arts majors will have a leg up on other grads because employers want leaders who communicate well.” Colleges just used different marketing tactics back then.

I was VERY lucky because tuition was fairly reasonable in the 80s, and we had a lot more job opportunities that simply don’t exist today thanks to technology, cost-cutting globalization, etc. I really feel bad for students who went to four year (non-Ivy League) colleges in the late 1990s and beyond. They graduated with enormous debt and were plunged into a workforce of shrinking opportunities and shrinking paychecks.

by Anonymousreply 135Last Friday at 6:20 AM

R135 Same with me in the late 90s. “You don’t have to know what you want to do, but you have to go to college. You can’t get a good job anymore without a college degree. You’ll figure it out by the time you have to choose a major. Do something you love and you’ll never work a day in your life—but the money is in computers. Whatever you do, you’ll be fine with a college degree.”

by Anonymousreply 136Last Friday at 6:30 AM

Yes, R136. And I really think the increasing emphasis on “amenities” is at least partially driven by colleges trying to attract wealthy students (domestic and abroad) who can afford to pay full tuition but aren’t quite rich or connected enough to break into the Ivy League.

by Anonymousreply 137Last Friday at 6:33 AM

Many of you are reading too much into this. More than the NYU Prof who is making an economic assessment. It's about being a high-tuition middling residential private college + low endowment. It's about the endowments. By the way, NYU is a high tuition middling (undergrad) university which now has a respectable if not spectacular endowment of 4-5 billion. There are less famous, and smaller privates with LARGER endowments. For example Rice, Emory, and Washington University in St. Louis.

by Anonymousreply 138Last Friday at 6:40 AM

R119 😂reminds me of my mother. She tells people she “went to Oxford” and assumes no further questions will be forthcoming - hoping no-one twigs that she went to Oxford Brooks Community College.

by Anonymousreply 139Last Friday at 6:46 AM

Smaller universities without large endowments are tuition driven. Many of them are already having to lay off large numbers of their faculty and rely on adjuncts. Significant drops in enrollment--75 students is a big deal if you only have 950 enrolled--over two or three semesters can absolutely mean the bankruptcy of such schools. I fully expect many to shut down within the next five years.

by Anonymousreply 140Last Friday at 6:50 AM

“I really feel bad for students who went to four year (non-Ivy League) colleges in the late 1990s and beyond. They graduated with enormous debt and were plunged into a workforce of shrinking opportunities and shrinking paychecks.”

Not to be contrarian, but I graduated from college in 2001. It took me five years all in all because I had a total nervous breakdown during my first year due to what you probably could call PTSD from years of abuses in high school. But it turned out to be fortunate I went to a community college after high school. They were more understanding of my challenges than a university would have been when I stopped attending classes and they welcomed me back. I excelled when I got my head straight, and I transferred to a state university with 30 credits and no GPA, and so I got to start over. I graduated with honors among the top 5 in my class. Despite that, I didn’t have a single scholarship—a woman in the financial aid office was perplexed that she couldn’t find one for me based on my grades—and still I graduated with a grand total, I think, of $12,000 in loan debt. I chose institutions that were more affordable because I came from a working-class family with no college background and my parents were not able to save for college. They did pay for all my textbooks, and when I was invited to study at Cambridge University as part of my honors program, my father insisted on paying for it because I was not going to do it because of the cost.

I studied English and film and media studies. I knowingly chose to study what interested me but would not likely pay off financially.

I was lucky to have the choice to live with my parents and commute to college (many community college students do not) and I chose to do that because dorm living was expensive and I thought it would be unnecessary and distracting. I didn’t buy into the “I have a right to have THE COLLEGE EXPERIENCE!” line my friends mostly adopted. I worked at least 30 hours per week throughout college except during my summer-long study abroad. I had no internships because I had to work for money. Before I graduated, my employer asked me to please come on full time after I graduated and I stayed with that job for 10 years and have been at my second adult job for 12 years now. I make much better money than I ever thought I would with my education (also have an MFA now), and I thrived studying what I really loved and worked hard at both my studies and my professional life.

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by Anonymousreply 141Last Friday at 6:56 AM

One thing my experience taught me that I have suggested to others is that having a ‘real job’ in an office environment during college—in my case at a small nonprofit—is very much like simultaneously studying applied business. I learned everything from budgeting and grant writing to editorial and graphic designs and PR skills at the office while studying literature, language and other arts at school. By the time I graduated, I had a lot of significant work experience.

All these options are not available to all people, but choosing community college for two years is available to ALL people, choosing to attend a public university and pay in-state tuition is available to ALL people, and seeking out a “real” entry-level white-collar job to work while in college is an option for many who instead are RAs or work at Old Navy. And those are perfectly good ways to make money, but if someone is in college and wants to work, say, in finance or tech or government, they could likely find an office assistant job in those sectors instead.

I have a lot of sympathy for Millennial-generation and later students. The sympathy wanes a little bit though when, for example, I hear the woes of young people who chose to study communications or political science at American or George Washington University, work as a resident advisor for practically nothing, live in the dorms, party for four years and amass $60k in debt per year. It’s insane! Surely those young people were misguided by adults but when I was young I sat down and worked out numbers, and I could pay $5,500 per semester at a Virginia university or I could have chosen (at the time) $40k for tuition plus expensive room and board at GWU or AU and I knew instantly what choice I had to make, being lower middle class. I don’t get how any halfway sane person could look at $100k or $200k for a bachelor’s degree and believe that to be a wise choice—students or their families.

by Anonymousreply 142Last Friday at 6:56 AM

Agreed there are far too many small colleges and universities whose existence is hard to justify.

How did all of these get started in the first place? Religious institutions? Local schools for the local elite?

by Anonymousreply 143Last Friday at 7:03 AM

They got started because there was a market, and for decades if not a century they were affordable without loans. Also there were not many "state" college systems. Maybe one large land grant. And the state "teacher colleges". The state systems were created post WWII.

I hope they give a quick cash infusion to the "historically black" colleges that have no endowments - there was talk about a month ago about that.

by Anonymousreply 144Last Friday at 7:09 AM

The financial industry drove up the costs by providing more and more student loan debt.

There needs to be a revolt against colleges and universities by making the costs go up so much over the past 30 years. They need to be hurt - they've become greedy corporations more about becoming real estate moguls than about educating generations.

by Anonymousreply 145Last Friday at 7:28 AM

We need more factory workers- not over educated bourgeoisie. The mindless proletariat should toil in unison for the good of the whole.

by Anonymousreply 146Last Friday at 7:39 AM

It’s just a messy system that has developed.

The “American Dream” was sold as a guarantee to all. That guarantee was constant, endless upward mobility for individuals and for generations, and ever-greater attainment with no limit. The Trump family is the embodiment of the American Dream. It’s the realization of it. It’s a nightmare.

For middle-class people who aspire to become upper-class superior beings, university education was the promised gateway. So of course everyone wanted to go.

Universities grew. Public universities grew in one direction, funded in part by states, to operate in the interest of all upwardly mobile people—the progressive American dream: equal merit-based opportunity for all.

Private elite universities grew in another direction, funded by students’ rich parents and by rich alumni, to operate in the interests of the upwardly mobile—the conservative American dream: selective status-based opportunity for the wealthy and connected.

Because exclusivity appeals to base instincts and because the American Dream fundamentally promises *everyone* “more and better all the time, people raised with progressive values wanted and expected merit-based opportunities to attend the luxury-brand universities, and so those universities found fundamentally fraudulent means—token merit-based admissions and scholarships for a few—to pretend to be similar to the public universities.

These university designs are at odds with one another: one is more like a social security check and the other like being admitted to Jay Gatsby’s inner circle. They competed and grew, and now it is dawning on people that these pathways to the American dream don’t begin or end up in the same places, and it’s dawning on people that endless financial accumulation and material accumulation for an exponentially growing population is a completely insane societal model based in fantasy and doomed to collapse or change into the super-wealthy becoming totalitarian tyrants over the poor.

It’s a war over territory and limited resources, ultimately, and it can’t be overcome through imparting knowledge to more people or selling more people a piece of paper with a fancy, made-up coat of arms on it. It’s way too fundamental a problem than that, and these two different educational system models have been distracting from that reality for decades.

by Anonymousreply 147Last Friday at 7:55 AM

R147 you fundamentally misread the NYU prof's argument. This is not about elite rich private universities - that are well endowed. This is the middling ones who will die. To the extent they rely on people taking loans to pay for them, - and those are people make bad consumer choices. Your argument is about Ivies and such and they are not at risk of bankruptcy, at all. And they have need blind admissions and financial aid are are NOT really bankrupting the poors lucky enough to be admitted.

NYU, on the other hand, ripped off a generation of middling students who paid and borrowed through the nose, thinking it was worth it.

by Anonymousreply 148Last Friday at 8:05 AM

The for-profits should be shut down by government order - but GOP and Co will never allow that. Trump owned one, for chrissakes.

It will be sad but the middlings may have to go and it will be protective if the do die, because people are very very dumb - parents and students - making poor decisions to borrow so very much money for private schools that are not worth it. The public universities can expand to cover the loss of places.

Community colleges should expand to ever greater technical-based training. They can eventually become 4 year BA granting schools - technical schools - public ones. This is what happened in Europe. All the technical schools were not "universities" but since the Union, and Bologna, they became bachelor-granting technical universities and the pump out the workers the economies can employ. It's not cheap. The governments are paying 30-60K a year, per student, to produce those workers. The student is paying 500-1000K a year, tops. But it will get you nurses and engineers and accountants and programmers so its a good deal.

by Anonymousreply 149Last Friday at 8:12 AM

R41 "I get annoyed with these doom and gloom scenarios. Once there are is a vaccine everything will go back to the way it was. The only thing that may change is that you may see more people teleworking."

Even if and when a vaccine is developed, we still have to deal with all the Covidiots/Anti-Vaxxers out there who will outright refuse to get it. Even if a vaccine can make you immune to it, doesn't mean you can't still transmit it to others.

by Anonymousreply 150Last Friday at 9:31 AM

[quote] Those of you claiming college students in the 1980s went to college with a “purpose” as opposed to the students of today are dead wrong. I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life when I entered college.

Nobody said that, R135. They said BEFORE the 1980's.

You are one of those people who shouldn't have gone to college. You're simply not smart enough, and you have poor reading skills.

[quote] The for-profits should be shut down by government order - but GOP and Co will never allow that. Trump owned one, for chrissakes.

Haha, I forgot about that!

If Trump started his own university, you know that it's a business for scammers.

He only goes for opportunities where he can take money from suckers.

by Anonymousreply 151Last Friday at 9:46 AM

The Obama administration did use regulation to try to force for-profits to do better by students, but it stopped short of shutting them down.

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by Anonymousreply 152Last Friday at 9:52 AM

A colleague was taking online classes at one of the online universities. I sat down with her and followed during one class.

It was the stupidest bunch of students I’d ever seen

by Anonymousreply 153Last Friday at 12:44 PM

R153 Which one?

by Anonymousreply 154Last Friday at 12:46 PM

R58

[quote] Also foreign students (especially Chinese students) are increasingly interested in attending university in the United States,

Not when this man keeps on threatening and harassing China. Chinese students have alternatives, like Canada, Australia, etc...

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by Anonymousreply 155Last Friday at 1:25 PM

R155 here. I meant this man

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by Anonymousreply 156Last Friday at 1:26 PM

[quote]We need more factory workers- not over educated bourgeoisie.

Factories... oh! Those things that now exist in China and Mexico. Let us know when unionized factory work reappears in the US.

by Anonymousreply 157Last Saturday at 12:31 AM

As an American person, I have to complain about American people.

We insist on paying the lowest prices for everything. It’s all about comparison shopping. And we want everything to be convenient and disposable, because who fixes things?

And at the same time, we proudly have high standards of living both throughout working life and in retirement. That means high wages with benefits, and those benefits must include health insurance and retirement savings because without them, one major illness would kill you, bankrupt you or render you homeless.

Demanding the lowest price for everything and a fair wage for everyone are not compatible notions within an economy. The idea of capitalism being supreme because it inspires competitiveness that keeps prices low may have had some merit at one time, but all production work has to be sent overseas where costs of living are low and where poor labor conditions are the norm so that American people can pay $6.99 for that plastic tablecloth with fireworks from China instead of $39.99 for a washable all-purpose one from the U.S.

We’ve designed a model that is its own downfall. The economy dies when people are not constantly purchasing disposable shit to replace disposable shit. We need a lot of money to live in this country but we won’t pay a lot of money for any given thing, because nothing lasts and we can’t afford to buy expensive things constantly, and so we can’t afford to make the shit we buy here, and so we give all our business to foreign countries. We’ve set it up so that we siphon money to other countries and we sustain their labor forces to make our crap.

Almost all manufacturing companies are incentivized to use foreign factories. On the TV show Shark Tank, the venture capitalists regularly grill inventors about how much they pay per unit for the goods they sell. Occasionally, someone will insist that their products be made in the US and that they are willing to pay a little more for that, and the sharks always only make offers to invest in their businesses if they agree to manufacture overseas to get the unit production price down from, say, $1.30 to .89.

by Anonymousreply 158Last Saturday at 6:06 AM

R158, the basis of the problem that you conveniently ignored is the minimum wage. People aren't looking for the lowest price for fun. If people were paid what they should be paid, they could afford to pay for American made products. Everything goes back to the crap wages across this country and the hyper-stratified economy that results from that. Raising the minimum wage to a living wage across the country fixes innumerable societal problems. Strange that you hit every other economic point but that one. Are you a Repug/Libertarian? Because you sound like one. If you aren't, you might want to widen your views because you sound like the privileged preaching to the poor and it's not a good look.

by Anonymousreply 159Last Saturday at 5:06 PM

R159 You completely misread my comments if what you took from them was ‘privileged preaching to the poor.’

I am criticizing the design of U.S. capitalism. It is unsustainable by design: all people cannot constantly advance, become richer and acquire more. That’s the design we were taught to believe in, and it gives us Bezoses and Trumps. Even people like Ivanka, who has everything, believes she deserves MORE MORE MORE and it comes at the cost of people who have less.

Poor people are forced to shop at Wal-Mart for basic needs. Wealthy people still buy their staples in bulk for as low a cost as they can. Regardless of resources available to us, our culture is to get it on the cheap, get as much as we can, and more than anything to do our best to get more than the people around us, no matter how much we already have. And that includes liquid assets, so more shitty material goods for the lowest price we can find so that we will have more money than everyone else.

This leaves people who are not already advantaged to be trampled on. The gulf widens.

I didn’t neglect to factor in poorer people. I wasn’t talking about individuals; I was talking about the nation as a whole.

Our system is built on a model of constant, endless growth fueled by constant, endless consumption by all. But the rich spend and hoard, and the poor struggle and have lesser opportunities with every generation.

Jeff Bezos has a greater personal wealth than the GDPs of half the countries in the world. He treats his employees like shit, puts them in harms way, compensates them terribly, and he got this rich in great part by selling cheap products made overseas by underpaid, often abuses labor.

That is not an argument in favor of abusing labor. It’s a characteristic of our country, and we are destabilizing right now because it’s an inherently unstable model. Nothing grows exponentially without reaching maximum capacity and collapsing in on itself.

by Anonymousreply 160Last Saturday at 5:24 PM

Well, good, R160. I'm glad I misread and that you've now addressed the two economic countries that exist in America and the differences between their behaviors of necessity versus greed.

by Anonymousreply 161Last Saturday at 6:04 PM

[quote] But the rich spend

The don't spend that much, and then they are the wealth extractors, the rentier class who live off the real wealth creators, the working and middle classes.

by Anonymousreply 162Last Saturday at 6:26 PM

Yep, the rich get richer reliably on real estate and also by manufacturing staple goods that everyone needs. Money makes money. Loans make poverty.

by Anonymousreply 163Last Saturday at 6:42 PM

[quote] the rich get richer..............and also by manufacturing staple goods that everyone needs

Or by not manufacturing anything useful at all solely by siphoning the wealth created by others through private equity and hedge funds

by Anonymousreply 164Last Saturday at 6:51 PM
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