As a Bon Appetit fan, I've been following the the forced resignation of its creepy Editor-in-Chief, Adam Rapoport, after a photo of his Halloween cosplay as a Hispanic street tough appeared. Massive pay disparities between white staffers and people of color also were uncovered and are reportedly being addressed. Yesterday, the magazine published a statement of intent to revise and delete recipes and articles that were insufficiently respectful of ethnic cuisine or failed to acknowledge the recipe's ethnic origins or used white experts on a country's cooking in place of those with ethnic ties. I'm struggling with this. I can understand the importance of locating people of color as experts and of educating an audience on how a take on a particular dish varies from the original. What I don't understand is branding interpretations and simplifications of an ethnic dish as disrespectful and inherently inferior to an ethnic dish that may have 10 more steps and ingredients that are next to impossible to find. I don't see what's wrong with an adaptation of pho or curry or tagine, particularly if it tastes delicious. I realize this is called "columbusing" and "applying a white gaze" to ethnic food but I see nothing wrong with this. When I read that BA's recipes are being contextualized, I think my days there are numbered. You?
Can recipes be racist? Is cultural appropriation of food a thing?
|by Anonymous||reply 225||18 hours ago|
[quote] I'm struggling with this.
I hope you find strength to prevail in your struggle
|by Anonymous||reply 1||06/23/2020|
Anyone who gets their panties in a wad over this can fuck off. I say, cook away to your heart and stomach's content! Bon appetite!
|by Anonymous||reply 2||06/23/2020|
Portland Burrito Cart Closes After Owners Are Accused Of Cultural Appropriation
|by Anonymous||reply 3||06/23/2020|
Seriously, OP? Look what's happening around you. EVERYTHING is racist. Don't try to find logic in it.
|by Anonymous||reply 4||06/23/2020|
This is so stupid. So, if you're Asian, you can only cook Asian food, and not every kind of food. You have to cook your own ethnic food and nothing else. Japanese people, no Szechuan chicken for you.
|by Anonymous||reply 5||06/23/2020|
Ludicrous PC policing. If you view the world through their lens, everything is offensive. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery—especially with food.
|by Anonymous||reply 6||06/23/2020|
R4, no, the problem isn't racism, it's attempting to take credit for another culture's food. Profiting off another person's methods which is what they did.
And R3 and his agenda left out the actual offensive part. Did you actually even READ what you posted?
"Critics say the women bragged about stealing recipes while in Mexico."
“They wouldn’t tell us too much about technique, but we were peeking into the windows of every kitchen, totally fascinated by how easy they made it look,” Connelly said. “We learned quickly it isn’t quite that easy.” - So they took it upon themselves to spy on these people and took their ideas without permission.
“The problem, of course, is that it’s unclear whether the Mexican women who handed over their recipes ever got anything in return,” King wrote in the piece that also outlined how others had begun to accuse the women of cultural appropriation. “And now those same recipes are being sold as a delicacy in Portland.”
This is no different than a fashion designer stealing someone's creations and profiting off of those ideas. How do you not see that?
|by Anonymous||reply 7||06/23/2020|
I have a problem when a wealthy designer or large company--say, Ivanka--rips off an indie but I have no problem at all with a mass marketer ripping off Stella McCartney or Victoria Beckham since their idiotic prices cover whatever losses they're likely to incur. Also, almost nothing in fashion is original and only fabric designs can be copyrighted for that reason. I don't think your analogy is apt, R7.
I think the Portland cart would have been okay if the recipes weren't stolen and the Mexican women who originated them were fairly compensated. Those two women sound like asses.
|by Anonymous||reply 8||06/23/2020|
Come on. Small cafes/restaurants start all the time exactly like this. All the time. Your real issue is that they’re white. You aren’t the arbiters of who can make different types of food. I have seen many restaurants where the owners are a different ethnicity from the food they’re making. Sometimes the food is great, sometimes it’s awful.
Get over yourselves.
|by Anonymous||reply 9||06/23/2020|
[quote] it's attempting to take credit for another culture's food
The seeds of insanity.
|by Anonymous||reply 10||06/23/2020|
I guess I am no longer allowed to boil noodles. It's appropriation of Chinese culture.
|by Anonymous||reply 11||06/23/2020|
I hang out in some food writer forums. The cultural policing has gotten pretty out of controls. Why are Millennial white women such scolds? They just seem so miserable. I mean food should be fun. And shared.
|by Anonymous||reply 12||06/23/2020|
I have drawn the conclusion that my fellow citizens have absolutely lost their minds. This entire conversation is completely America-centric, and shows how America is devolving into chaos. Cultural appropriation needs to be universally applied across all cultures to test its validity as an idea. What's good for one culture is good for another, no? Is the Japanese pizza-chef in Tokyo guilty of cultural appropriation? Should only Italians make Italian food throughout the world or does this rule only apply to Americans? And let's be honest; we're only really talking about white Americans.
|by Anonymous||reply 13||06/23/2020|
[quote] Why are Millennial white women such scolds?
I'm beginning to think we have created a generation of White people, who actually hate their own race. I don't agree with "White Pride" but neither do I agree with "White Self-Hate."
|by Anonymous||reply 14||06/23/2020|
Fuck cultural appropriation sideways. No such thing.
|by Anonymous||reply 15||06/23/2020|
[quote] I'm beginning to think we have created a generation of White people, who actually hate their own race.
College have pushed white guilt indoctrination for decades.
|by Anonymous||reply 16||06/23/2020|
I don't care who cooks it if they'll let me lick the spoon
|by Anonymous||reply 17||06/23/2020|
R13, and how far back do we go? Italians use a lot of tomato in their cooking, but tomatoes aren't native to Italy. And of course pasta was born out of noodles from the East. Yet, using non native ingredients and (ugh) "appropriating" others' dishes has resulted in some really amazing cuisine beloved the world over.
I've really only started to cook for myself in the last couple of years, and what I've discovered with surprise is that I love the whole process of it. There's something so satisfying about creating your own dishes, thinking about what works and what doesn't, and getting inspiration from others to make stuff you love. Plus due to allergies I have to mix and match things a lot. There's no way I would be able to avoid "appropriating" the cuisine of others, I wouldn't be left with much tasty to eat for a start! This will only hurt Bon Appetit in the long run, the everyday person is still going to cook how they wish.
|by Anonymous||reply 18||06/23/2020|
Bon Appetit should be embarrassed. They should stick to cooking and baking and leave the intellectual matters to someone else to sort out.
|by Anonymous||reply 19||06/23/2020|
What is wrong with going to a country and getting ideas and techniques from the native population? How many American chefs and food authors have done just that on trips to France and Italy. R7, why does that not bother you?
|by Anonymous||reply 20||06/23/2020|
[quote] Come on. Small cafes/restaurants start all the time exactly like this. All the time. Your real issue is that they’re white.
Life is so very very hard for whites in this country that is 70+ percent white; where whites run everything and own everything.
[quote] I'm beginning to think we have created a generation of White people, who actually hate their own race. I don't agree with "White Pride" but neither do I agree with "White Self-Hate."
This never happened. Americans are much too selfish and self centered for that. Your comments are nonsense but you probably already knew that.
|by Anonymous||reply 21||06/23/2020|
[quote]The seeds of insanity.
Except it isn't. Israel is constantly trying to claim things like hummus and falafel as "Israeli" when it's food that predates their very existence.
|by Anonymous||reply 22||06/23/2020|
America is so messed up.
|by Anonymous||reply 23||06/23/2020|
[quote] I don't agree with "White Pride" but neither do I agree with "White Self-Hate."
No one is telling your stupid ass you can't celebrate being Irish or Norwegian or Scottish. The "white" nonsense is why we're even in this mess. Confederate flags and statues perpetuate that nonsense.
And BTW, I would suggest a lot of you white gays get over yourselves because anyone who actually believes in that "white pride" nonsense will never see homosexuality as a normal part of any society they consider a utopia.
|by Anonymous||reply 24||06/23/2020|
[quote] What I don't understand is branding interpretations and simplifications of an ethnic dish as disrespectful and inherently inferior to an ethnic dish that may have 10 more steps and ingredients that are next to impossible to find. I don't see what's wrong with an adaptation of pho or curry or tagine, particularly if it tastes delicious. I realize this is called "columbusing" and "applying a white gaze" to ethnic food but I see nothing wrong with this. When I read that BA's recipes are being contextualized, I think my days there are numbered. You?
This is not about what’s right or wrong. Condé Nast and the white decision makers at Bon Appetit don’t care about right or wrong. They care about selling magazines. This is strictly about rehabilitating their image and selling magazines.
|by Anonymous||reply 25||06/23/2020|
Eat and cook whatever the fucking hell you want, you twit.
|by Anonymous||reply 26||06/23/2020|
[quote] Israel is constantly trying to claim things like hummus and falafel as "Israeli" when it's food that predates their very existence.
What restaurant has ever been harassed out of business for ever serving non-Israeli falafel ?
|by Anonymous||reply 27||06/23/2020|
Falafel is revolting. Who'd want to claim it?
|by Anonymous||reply 28||06/23/2020|
R25 With ridiculous articles like this, they might just lose readers.
|by Anonymous||reply 29||06/23/2020|
From the Wikipedia article on the topic (full article is linked below):
'The concept of cultural appropriation has been heavily criticized. Critics note that the concept is often misunderstood or misapplied by the general public, and that charges of "cultural appropriation" are at times misapplied to situations such as eating food from a variety of cultures or simply learning about different cultures."
In the cooking world it is common to "borrow" ideas, recipes, and techniques. How often do you see a recipe like, "... a la Julia Child" or "Martha Stewart's..." online and in cookbooks? Making tortillas and burritos is NOT cultural appropriation. Going to Mexico and spying on cooks who say they don't wish to share their recipes and techniques with you, and then profiting from what you have taken expressly against their wishes, IS cultural appropriation. It is the uneven distribution of power, the assumed right to take what you wish from others that is the root of the problem.
Bon Appetit, in their efforts to "re-contextualize" recipes, run the very real risk of using cultural stereotypes, and being insensitive toward other cultures whose versions of a dish might not be fairly represented. It's already been pointed out in this thread that some dishes like falafel (and baklava, hummus, rice pudding, and... ) are claimed by many cultures and cuisines. Whose version is the "right" one? Whose version gets to be printed? To me, that editorial task is far more likely to risk cultural appropriation than to repair it.
|by Anonymous||reply 30||06/23/2020|
I kinda understand the criticism and thought about it last year when a ramen restaurant opened in my neighborhood. Now ramen is still pretty new in my country and it is outrageously expensive. The ramen restaurant claims to offer the „authentic ramen experience“ - however, there are no Japanese cooks in the kitchen, only white guys who went to Japan for 2 weeks and apparently learned everything they needed to know.
Nothing wrong with that, but why advertise it as the real deal when it is clearly not? That pissed off a lot of my Japanese colleagues and I do understand why.
|by Anonymous||reply 31||06/23/2020|
The writer of the article is Filipino and uses an Americanized halo-halo as his exhibit A.
Then someone needs to cancel Jollibee because they have grossly appropriated American and Italian cooking traditions. As an southern Italian-American, I am deeply triggered.
|by Anonymous||reply 32||06/23/2020|
The extreme left would love everyone to be genderless, control who they fuck (making sure the cis to transgender quota is 50/50), make sure they never experience other cultures and no one should ever be offended, unless they are white and they will be reminded how awful they are everyday.
|by Anonymous||reply 33||06/24/2020|
A lot of food writers who discover some ingredient - dried turmeric! - misuse and overuse it. They don't have the background of cooking with it and don't respect the integrity of when and how it is best used in food. That's how you get that shit published in the New York Times food section.
|by Anonymous||reply 34||06/24/2020|
"As an southern Italian-American, I am deeply triggered."
Before you impress us with your superior take on racism, maybe check on your grammar.
Or double down on stupidity.
Obviously you've made your choice.
|by Anonymous||reply 35||06/24/2020|
The burrito women didn’t try to “take credit:” They offered the story of how they learned recipes.
And to the poster above who put the designs and or Stella McCartney and Victoria Beckham in the same category...please do some research. McCartney is actually talented and is one of few remaining designers whose products aren’t made in Chinese sweatshops.
|by Anonymous||reply 36||06/24/2020|
It’s also racist if you imply a certain cuisine isn’t healthy.
|by Anonymous||reply 37||06/24/2020|
Suggesting that a person of a particular ethnic background by definition can cook a particular dish better than another person of a different ethnic background is absurd.
Cooking skill and authenticity, as defined as using traditional methods and recipes, is what matters, not the background of the person cooking it.
The only argument that I could even remotely possibly buy is that someone's palate might reflecting upbringing, so you might end up with a subtly different flavor. But, that's going to be true of any two cooks, irrespective of background - ask any two italian grandmas arguing about who's the better cook.
|by Anonymous||reply 38||06/24/2020|
[quote]But, that's going to be true of any two cooks, irrespective of background - ask any two italian grandmas arguing about who's the better cook.
Or "sauce" v. "gravy."
|by Anonymous||reply 39||06/24/2020|
[quote] Going to Mexico and spying on cooks who say they don't wish to share their recipes and techniques with you, and then profiting from what you have taken expressly against their wishes, IS cultural appropriation
And just as those Mexican cooks were on the cusp of launching their own chain of restaurants in the U.S. Shame on those women! 🙄
|by Anonymous||reply 40||06/24/2020|
With the Bon Appetit situation, what happened is that a Puerto Rican food writer had submitted an idea to the magazine, was rudely told that her recipe wasn't "now" enough, then a very similar recipe showed up with Molly Baz, a blonde white lady, making it.
BA has improved over the years but they still have some rough spots when it comes to recipes that don't originate in the U.S.
That said, one of the most ridiculous things I ever heard was Andy Baraghani complaining in one of the lockdown videos that Brad Leone shouldn't have been allowed to use sumac in his recipes because "it's not HIS spice to use, anyway." Are we really going to start complaining when a white guy uses an East Asian spice? Especially when it's also grown in North America?
|by Anonymous||reply 41||06/24/2020|
It's pretty simple. Cooking for people is caring and creative, and it encourages togetherness and understanding of other cultures. Eating different types of food is one of life's greatest pleasures.
Therefore, consider the whole enterprise CANCELLED.
May your food turn to dust in your mouth, and may you put away your saucepan and never cook again. Now eat your Wonder bread and think about what you've done, evil scum.
|by Anonymous||reply 42||06/24/2020|
Rappaport’s firing was a LONG time coming, and he’s not the only one. What’s left of the NY magazine industry is filled with entitled male editors that need to go.
|by Anonymous||reply 43||06/24/2020|
So many triggered racists and incels on this thread. Can’t wait until the election and you’re all swept away and you finally get the fuck out of here.
|by Anonymous||reply 44||06/24/2020|
How did I forget about The Racist Sandwich??!
|by Anonymous||reply 45||06/24/2020|
[quote]Is cultural appropriation of food a thing?
Yes, and it is codified in EU law and some other international laws. Here you may read about the very well established system of protecting regional cuisines in various EU states. To give a well-known example, you may not use the term Champagne for your sparkling wine unless the wine comes from that region.
Biopiracy is the practice of stealing local and indigenous food knowledge for profit, and tentative legal frameworks have been negotiated to prevent it in the last couple of decades.
|by Anonymous||reply 46||06/24/2020|
No one “claims” falafel. Anyone with a modicum if intelligence or experience knows it’s a middle eastern food part of many countries’ cuisines including Greece, Israel, Jordan, etc
You might want to learn some history too
|by Anonymous||reply 47||06/24/2020|
R46 Those EU designations has absolutely nothing to do with recipes but with products and ingredients.
|by Anonymous||reply 48||06/24/2020|
[quote]Biopiracy is the practice of stealing local and indigenous food knowledge for profit, and tentative legal frameworks have been negotiated to prevent it in the last couple of decades.
|by Anonymous||reply 49||06/24/2020|
"Yes, and it is codified in EU law and some other international laws."
R46, geographical indication and protected names of origin are a completely different thing and they're about the use of specific names of very specific products that almost literally are named after geographical areas and/or have a centuries-old tradition. Those foods/drinks can still be made but not use that geographical or traditional name (e.g. sherry, feta). This is primarily a trade thing so a valued product is not damaged through bastardisation.
It's nothing to do with the stupid American concept of "cultural appropriation" and no one on EU food programmes or in restaurants in the EU is forced to give explanations as to why they're cooking a particular recipe.
|by Anonymous||reply 50||06/24/2020|
|by Anonymous||reply 51||06/24/2020|
That is true, R48, thanks for the correction. But it's more the concept of ownership of food culture that I was addressing. Some recipes are so well established that they are part of global food culture, but where cuisines form a vital part of a local economy, there is a clear case for grievance in my opinion. The instance where the Portland restaurant was accused of stealing recipes is a clear case of piracy, in my opinion, even if it might not be legally actionable.
|by Anonymous||reply 52||06/24/2020|
Mi piace che ho imparato a cucinare dai libri di Marcella Hazan e Giuliano Bugialli, e non dalla vicina di casa di mia nonna. I suoi nipoti possono farmi causa.
|by Anonymous||reply 53||06/24/2020|
Apologies for redundant redundancies in my post, I blame lack of sleep.
|by Anonymous||reply 54||06/24/2020|
I just had hummus for breakfast and I’m not from the Middle East. Whatever will become of me !
|by Anonymous||reply 55||06/24/2020|
R37 looks like Lucky Lee's closed down back in Nov 2019, about 7 months after the NYT article. The extreme PC mob assailed the yelp page, as they are wont to do, with negative ratings and declarations of joy at the owners losing their business.
But remember, the PC mob are the good guys!
|by Anonymous||reply 56||06/24/2020|
Well, you're just going to have to report to food jail, r55, where r52 is head jailer. He will send your DNA to 23andme.com ASAP to find out exactly which foods you are allowed to consume. Until your results come back, it's PBJ three times a day.
|by Anonymous||reply 57||06/24/2020|
I'm not interesting in enforcing anything, R57. Not my grievance.
|by Anonymous||reply 58||06/24/2020|
R56 That’s too bad...I wanted to try it.
|by Anonymous||reply 59||06/24/2020|
[quote] you may not use the term Champagne for your sparkling wine unless the wine comes from that region.
That's purely BRANDING. Grapes grow in many places and any difference in the quality of the same product produced elsewhere is for the consumer to decide.
|by Anonymous||reply 60||06/24/2020|
If you've ever lived in Portland, or visited for any length of time, you'd know the burrito cart shit is nonsense. The town is very white, and there are so many carts and restaurants that are the same damn story. Example: Pok Pok is owned by a very white man, who sells Northern Thai cuisine. Where was the outrage? There were taco places opened all over the city by a very fat white guy, and he admittedly got the recipes from street taco sellers in Mexico, plus tequila he imported himself. No outrage, just praise.
|by Anonymous||reply 61||06/24/2020|
"it's attempting to take credit for another culture's food. Profiting off another person's methods which is what they did."
That is ludicrous. Please tell me what ethnicity wheat and eggs are. There hasn't been a community, society or culture since the dawn of civilization that haven't shared, borrowed, exchanged or interpolated recipes with other. It not only promoted tolerated and understanding but also insured SURVIVAL. For anyone to claim that THEIR dish is the one and only original authentic one is just incredibly ignorant.
|by Anonymous||reply 62||06/24/2020|
[quote]This is no different than a fashion designer stealing someone's creations and profiting off of those ideas. How do you not see that?
Learning and using commonly held techniques known by many that apply to the usual activities of daily life is nothing - NOTHING - like stealing an individual's unique artistic product.
How do you not see that? It's because you are steeped in too much theory while being without apparent skills for logic or critical thinking. Go get some help in those areas and try again.
|by Anonymous||reply 63||06/24/2020|
What I gather is that if white people contemplate presenting or writing about a dish historically linked to people of color, they should acknowledge the dish's origins, not present it as authentic, not adulterate the dish by oversimplifying it for a white audience, not use a key ingredient in other dishes and stand down until someone of the correct ethnicity presents it and is credited with it.
You don't build a broad audience for a region's cuisine (as opposed to particular EU products) if you insist on acting as a gatekeeper and traffic cop. Tell me that the family that owns the Sriracha family is offended when their sauce is used in a wide range of dishes. I'm guessing not.
|by Anonymous||reply 64||06/24/2020|
[quote] You don't build a broad audience for a region's cuisine (as opposed to particular EU products) if you insist on acting as a gatekeeper and traffic cop.
First of all, there is no obligation to build a broad audience for a region's cuisine. Second, a food editor is by necessity a gate keeper. Someone has to decide what is being presented. A magazine has a limited number of pates. A YouTube video has a limited amount of time. You can do your own independent study for a limitless amount of time, but no publication can do the same. It's not possible. If there is to be publication, there must also be some curation and editing involved.
If the writer and the editor feels that some translation and adaptation is in order, that's fine, too. If a recipe is actually part of a culture, then it has long since been edited, translated, and adapted, again and again and again as it falls into the hands and the kitchen of each successive cook who worked that recipe and made it part of the culture. It's absurd to think there is anything about cooking that does not bend to the circumstances of the moment. How can anyone be so naive as to think otherwise?
|by Anonymous||reply 65||06/24/2020|
Actually, youtube videos do not have a limited amount of time unless someone pulls them. They may have a limited amount of time to make a splash when introduced on social media but that's another matter. Food editors have a symbiotic relationship with their audience, which in the case of Bon Appetite, is a mass audience with a limited amount of time to spend cooking and shopping for ingredients. That's where the obligation to build enthusiasm for a region's cuisine comes in. If the food writers don't make the recipes accessible, it's a one-off. It's one thing to present a dish a particular way, it's quite another to say there is one true way to eat it and all others are disrespectful. That's gatekeeping.
|by Anonymous||reply 66||06/24/2020|
The BA thing is stupid. 90% of their audience is upper middle class and wannabe upper middle class white women. Of course their recipes will be catered to that demographic. They’re a BUSINESS, they want to keep their subscriber base happy. Why does every single thing have to be inclusive now?
|by Anonymous||reply 67||06/24/2020|
There has been a warning placed on Reddit regarding the recent issues that occurred at BA. The warning states that the continued release of information about BA and tangential topics is being driven by Russian bots to cause division in the country.
|by Anonymous||reply 68||06/24/2020|
That doesn't surprise me, R68. When people start arguing very passionately en masse about something ridiculous, I find that scenario believable.
|by Anonymous||reply 69||06/24/2020|
There'a a blow-up on twitter about an NYT business piece analyzing the Thai fruit industry, which exports throughout Asia, and discussing the impediments to exporting the fruits--durian, mangosteens, rambutans, langsats, jackfruit, dragon fruit, salak--in larger quantity to the United States. The problem is that some species of fruit have thorny shells that do not peel easily and their consistency, some of which is heavily seeded, is challenging to western cooks. This is not a culinary piece but the critics are responding as if it is and are angry that the assignment did not go to a Thai food writer instead of an Asian NYT bureau chief. The objections center around the some of the fruits being described hyperbolically--one spiked fruit is likened to a coronavirus--or as smelly. I agree that the article would have been better if it incorporated either trade or culinary experts on the possibility of a wider market for this fruit.
But the people with pitchforks are angry because it wasn't written by someone who is Thai and the fact that it's not a piece on how to cook with exotic fruit is lost on them. They think the descriptions of the fruit are disrespectful and insulting to Thais.
I think it's dangerous to say only X people can write about X because that can lead to the conclusion that all X can write about is X.
I also think it's dangerous to assume that distaste for a particular ingredient is insulting to a culture.
|by Anonymous||reply 70||06/24/2020|
R70 I can't stand kimchi, the smell when eating it and the smell emanating afterwards. Tried it more than once and found it disgusting. I was also good friends with a Korean exchange student back in high school and she reeked of kimchi after eating it either before school or with lunch. Used to think that had something to do with my dislike of kimchi, but now I think it's more because of the taste and smell when eating it. I love all other Korean food but not kimchi. I happened to say this during a group conversation a few years back when we were talking about most hated foods. This Korean-American woman then straight up accused me of being racist based solely on my hatred of kimchi.
|by Anonymous||reply 71||06/24/2020|
R71, what did you do when disliking one specific Korean food got you branded as racist? I would have probably rolled my eyes or laughed, but my attitude has a way of causing me problems.
Fun fact: I stayed with some Korean-American friends for a little while. They had bought some kimchi because the in-laws from the old country were coming over and they apologized to me that they were going to be serving it. I told them I adore kim chi. They told me to eat up, because they hate it!
|by Anonymous||reply 72||06/24/2020|
[quote]The objections center around the some of the fruits being described hyperbolically--one spiked fruit is likened to a coronavirus
Yeah, that's a problem, though. Describing an Asian fruit as looking like the coronavirus is really ill-advised. I agree that the rest of the fallout seems excessive but that right there should have been caught by an editor.
[quote]or as smelly.
Lemme guess, durian? It is smelly. It's not racist to say so, because it's stink-ay to everyone, all the time.
|by Anonymous||reply 73||06/24/2020|
[quote]Going to Mexico and spying on cooks who say they don't wish to share their recipes and techniques with you, and then profiting from what you have taken expressly against their wishes, IS cultural appropriation
That's not "cultural appropriation."
That's just plain run-of-the-mill shitty behavior.
|by Anonymous||reply 74||06/25/2020|
[quote]Yeah, that's a problem, though. Describing an Asian fruit as looking like the coronavirus is really ill-advised.
What is wrong with describing the look of a fruit as one sees it?
|by Anonymous||reply 75||06/25/2020|
R3, What the hell. I’m half Mexican and I didn’t know Mexicans were into the cultural appropriation thing.
|by Anonymous||reply 76||06/25/2020|
R76, stop calling yourself "half Mexican." Admit that the racist non-Mexican half of yourself colonized and occupied the Mexican half and culturally appropriated its proud Mexican DNA.
|by Anonymous||reply 77||06/25/2020|
I do hate to read Indian or Thai recipes modified by whites people. The seasoning is always way off.
|by Anonymous||reply 78||06/25/2020|
For your consideration. "Deepa's Secrets" is an Indian cookbook written by a successful Indian business woman in which she deconstructs traditional Indian recipes and reconfigures them in low carb versions for modern needs.
So someone tell me what's wrong with it.
|by Anonymous||reply 79||06/25/2020|
(r78) try chinese food modified by Indian people, there's no resemblance to the original dish. That's because people modify dishes for their palates. Is it really that difficult to understand? There are plenty of Indian and Thai recipes online, written by Indians and Thais, no reason to go with a random persons version.
|by Anonymous||reply 80||06/25/2020|
[quote]Admit that the racist non-Mexican half of yourself colonized and occupied the Mexican half and culturally appropriated its proud Mexican DNA.
And why don't YOU admit and recognize that half of that half Mexican half is of Indigenous heritage and therefore was occupied and oppressed by the European half of that Mexican half!
|by Anonymous||reply 81||06/25/2020|
Those who cry cultural appropriation or racism in food obviously have very little experience with traveling to non-English speaking countries. They probably also don’t have friends from different cultures.
As an off note, I love stories about people who were raised in another culture from which they were born. Food is often featured prominently as part of their cultural ties. Like this Korean adoptee who came to the US as a child along with his siblings. Dumped by adopted and foster families until finding some stability from his Mexican grandma who raised him after finding out her son (foster dad) beat the kid. The Korean guy identifies as Chicano. He got deported to South Korea after prison even though he didn’t speak Korean, having left as a young child years earlier. What does he do after arriving there? Open up a Mexican restaurant.
|by Anonymous||reply 82||06/25/2020|
^^^YT profile of Christian for those interested
|by Anonymous||reply 83||06/25/2020|
[quote]Those who cry cultural appropriation or racism in food obviously have very little experience with traveling to non-English speaking countries. They probably also don’t have friends from different cultures.
R82 Just imagine how tied in knots this guy must make them!:
(He gave a speech at a conference I attended a few years ago. Amazing back story and very inspirational!)
|by Anonymous||reply 84||06/25/2020|
[quote]I realize this is called "columbusing" and "applying a white gaze" to ethnic food but I see nothing wrong with this
Translation: I realize this is racist but I am a racist.
|by Anonymous||reply 85||06/25/2020|
There is no one fixed way to prepare any recipe. Every cook adapts and adjusts for personal taste. Every recipe bends to the locally available ingredients. As available preparation methods or cooking methods change, so does the recipe. Finished dishes reflect local tastes for sweetness, saltiness, heat.
It's just stone cold stupid to think that any of these things are somehow sacrosanct. It's just food. People prepare it they way they like it. Always. Everywhere. And that's a great way for it to be.
|by Anonymous||reply 86||06/25/2020|
As I've said before, it's going to be a bland and boring future if no cultures can't cross pollinate.
|by Anonymous||reply 87||06/25/2020|
R77 has stated her boundaries
|by Anonymous||reply 88||06/25/2020|
R82, I think you have hit the nail on the head with the comment: "They probably also don’t have friends from different cultures." From what I've observed, people like this simply want to speak for everyone else, like they have some kind of white saviour complex. The funniest part is when the people from the culture they are speaking over say: "Actually, we don't have a problem with this." and get promptly dismissed by the person who is ostensibly championing them. I saw one girl even say: "It's so sad they don't understand what a problem it is they are facing."
It would blow their minds to meet people from multicultural families. My best friend is an Italian, whose family is from North Africa and their food reflects that. They're constantly mixing things up too, based on what ingredients are available and quite frankly, what is easier to prepare, and what tastes best. What to do, what to do? These angry people surely wouldn't be able to just sit and enjoy that food, which is sad.
It also confuses me how angry I saw one writer get because people are now using turmeric in their food. Is this really worth getting upset over? Plus, my family, at least, have cooked with turmeric since I was little, and we're pretty white. It's hardly a "new fad".
Food is the great uniter among people. It's a shame they can't see that.
|by Anonymous||reply 89||06/25/2020|
You don't see Chinese yelling. "You've appropriated our tea and noodles!" to the world. BTW, did you know that the original ketchup was a facsimile of fish/soy sauce from China? It was an expensive sauce for the 18th century Brits, so they tried to make it themselves.
|by Anonymous||reply 90||06/25/2020|
"I realize this is called "columbusing" and "applying a white gaze" to ethnic food but I see nothing wrong with this" Translation: I realize this is racist but I am a racist.
Calling someone a racist is a non-argument. I did some more reading and I think I understand "columbusing" better and I see why it's offensive. Essentially, it occurs when a white person purports to be an authority on an ethnic cuisine, with little basis in fact. It's more problematic when it's applied to Rick Bayless, who has popularized regional Mexican cuisine with his PBS series and is a bonafide expert. Is he usurping a space that rightfully belongs to Mexican chefs or has he created a mass audience for all types of Mexican food from which a new generation of Mexican chefs has benefited? Probably a little of both although Bayless has mentored many Mexican chefs.
Something that helped me understand the idea of a white gaze is the Bon Appetit headline: Pho is the new ramen. What's obnoxious is the idea that there's only room for one trendy ethnic food at a time and all asian foods are roughly equivalent.
I get that. Here's what I don't get: Talking about "white food" as if it's monolithic. Attacking as racist any article that disparages an ethnic dish or foodstuff. Beating up on Chris Morocco when he gagged after tasting stewed chitterlings with a blindfold on. Beating up on Chris Morocco for offering a dessert inspired by HaloHalo instead of the original, which calls for jackfruit, red sweetened mung beans, ube, saba, plantains and other ingredients that are not easy for me to locate and, frankly, don't sound that appetizing. Maybe in time they will but the bastardized version might be a better first step for me and lots of other people, including people of color.
I am also sick of hearing about how first- and second-generation chefs and food writers were ridiculed in grammar school for bringing in smelly, ethnic food for their school lunches and not peanut butter sandwiches. Undoubtedly that was painful but with maturity should come a recognition that almost everyone has a horrible time in grammar school--the fat kids, the learning-disabled kids, the LGBT kids, the poor kids, the kids who are lousy at athletics, the Jewish and Muslim kids during Christmas time, the children whose parents were going through a horrible divorce, and so on. To brandish this as an adult as a symbol of the othering you received as a kid and for which you now demand payback, that's sour grapes and not at all palatable. t
|by Anonymous||reply 91||06/25/2020|
I’ll bet most people who complain about stealing others’ cuisine to satisfy white American tastebuds use chopsticks when they go to restaurants where they serve food from countries/cultures wherein chopsticks are the tools used.
Racist, culture thieves! If you’re American you use a knife and fork! Using chopsticks is the height of cultural appropriation. Yes, it is, at least if you want to follow this idiotic woke diatribe to its logical conclusion. (Cue the hypocrite: “No, I use chopsticks to honor the culture.”)
|by Anonymous||reply 92||06/25/2020|
Stop kowtowing to the politically correct scolds. If they call you a racist, just stare at them and say, "And?" Stop giving away your power by fearing their reaction, people!! C'mon, grow some balls!!! Our forefathers stared death in the face for eons and yet we are so terrified of being excluded from a group of far left losers. If they are THIS insane now, they will only become even more insane with time. A bully is never satisfied with easy prey. Their demands will get more and more extreme until they hit a wall, but the problem is that by then, that wall may not be strong enough to push them back. Do you understand? In other words: this is going to get a lot if we don't push back NOW!
|by Anonymous||reply 93||06/25/2020|
IMO, The issue is that, maybe, BA & other mags like it, insist on strict adherence when publishing French or other kinds of western European recipes. Then, when it comes to “ethnic” recipes, play fast & loose, using all kinds of substitutions for ingredients.
|by Anonymous||reply 94||06/25/2020|
[quote] That's purely BRANDING. Grapes grow in many places and any difference in the quality of the same product produced elsewhere is for the consumer to decide.
Use of the word “Champagne” on a label is more than branding, it’s a regulation. You can’t produce sparkling wine from California grapes then label it Champagne.
|by Anonymous||reply 95||06/25/2020|
R94, but - and let's face it - the woke army is never bothered about the "cultural appropriation" of French or Italian or other European food. It's only "cultural appropriation" if it's non-western stuff. In fact, the "cultural appropriation" of European things is now called "inclusion" and "diversity" and it's basically dictated.
|by Anonymous||reply 96||06/25/2020|
When it cones to cuisine, I think cultural appropriation is a good thing. That's how a lot of the national cuisines in once-colonized countries were formed. By mixing influences from native cultures, the colonizers', and those with whom they traded, boom a unique cuisine with a unique character in terms of flavor, techniques, and ingredients were born.
Notwithstanding this, preservation of cuisines is also soemthing that should be undertaken.
|by Anonymous||reply 97||06/26/2020|
Also, if a culture is to not evolve either by the people's ingenuity or by incorporating and indigenizing external influences, then it's as good as dead.
|by Anonymous||reply 98||06/26/2020|
R96, IMO, there’s simply more reverence and respect paid to French and Italian cooking traditions. In general.
|by Anonymous||reply 99||06/26/2020|
was born* (lol, I need to take a second look at the stuff I write)
|by Anonymous||reply 100||06/26/2020|
Baloney, r99. Or, pizza or pasta or have a baguette. French fries, even.
The point is, French restaurants in America are not considered an outrage and you don't have to be French to cook French food.
|by Anonymous||reply 101||06/26/2020|
This reminds me of a recent post on the Am I The Asshole subreddit:
I'm friends with this vegan girl on Facebook. We were friends in our high school days but we've mostly lost touch. She was only vegetarian back when I knew her but made the switch to vegan a while back. Recently, she posted a photo of jambalaya that she made. I commented "Jambalaya? I thought you were vegan". She said "I still am, I used veggie broth instead of chicken stock, vegan sausage, vegan chick'n, and I even managed to find vegan shrimp!" I decided to send her a private message.
I told her that while she might not have thought she did anything wrong, these types of recipes are not meant for white people to modify to suit their white palates. This is someone else's culture and it's just not right to try to change it to try to make it "better" or whatever. White people have been doing that kind of shit for years and it's not cool.
She got extremely offended and told me that she didn't modify it to suit her palate, she modified it to suit her dietary restrictions and otherwise followed the recipe exactly. I pointed out that her veganism is a self-imposed dietary restriction. If she had allergies it would be different, but it's not like she can't eat meat and dairy and whatnot, it's that she chooses not to eat those things. She told me she was done with the conversation and to mind my own business. Then she blocked me.
Am I really the asshole here? Or is she just acting this way because no one likes to be called out?
|by Anonymous||reply 102||06/26/2020|
"It's just stone cold stupid to think that any of these things are somehow sacrosanct. It's just food.“
No disrespect but this is a very American way of thinking about food and it is not the case in other parts of the world.
It is not just food, it is part of the culture, of family, traditions passed down from generation to generation. For immigrant communities food is often the link to the home countries and part of their cultural identities, thus they tend to be more protective of the cooking style. I know I am.
|by Anonymous||reply 103||06/26/2020|
You can be as protective as you want in your own home r103 and cook just as your grandmother did and your grandmother before her, but that doesn't give you the right to say no one else can cook a particular dish or serve it in a restaurant.
I'm pretty sure if you went to the homes of other immigrant families from your ethnic community for dinner, you'd find their family traditions prepare the same dishes differently from yours.
|by Anonymous||reply 104||06/26/2020|
R93, one of my favourite pushbacks I saw the other day was someone who was getting scolded for using sage, and they responded with:
"Until you claimed there was a rule, I knew nothing of this. No. I'm not going to stop practicing MY family's culture of using sage (which can be traced back many thousands of years). I'm disrespecting no one, nor do I intend to.
"You're awfully bossy, Bella."
|by Anonymous||reply 105||06/26/2020|
The only people who believe in this appropriation shit are people who can't cook. LEARNING a recipe by watching someone prepare something is one of the ways we learn how to prepare a dish ourselves.
[quote] I told her that while she might not have thought she did anything wrong, these types of recipes are not meant for white people to modify to suit their white palates. This is someone else's culture and it's just not right to try to change it to try to make it "better" or whatever.
This is hilarious. Tell this to black people in America. Literally 90% of what they cook is "white people food".
|by Anonymous||reply 106||06/26/2020|
[QUOTE] Am I really the asshole here?
|by Anonymous||reply 107||06/26/2020|
Bad news. All tobacco smokers who are not Native Americans from the South, you can't smoke any more. Tobacco was sacred to those tribes and anyone who is not Indigenous CANNOT use any form of it. Your othering and appropriation will no longer be tolerated. You have been warned.
Even worse news. Cannabis is native to the steppes of Asia. So steppe off if you're not indigenous to that region.
Ah-ah-ah -- are you a McTavish or a Donagh? If not, put down that Scotch! The name says it all. SCOTS ONLY. And keep your racist, genocidal, Columbusing paws off the Vodka unless you're Russian and can prove it.
|by Anonymous||reply 108||06/26/2020|
Heated discussion in a Facebook food group on whether you should ever call a food or dish disgusting. Someone pointed out that the Thais have no word for this and instead say, I have not learned to like this.
I am going to give Southeast Asian fruit a chance except for Durian. But for haggis, tripe, mutton, eels, brains and lutefisk, it's a big no.
|by Anonymous||reply 109||06/26/2020|
Ree Drummond's "Asian Chicken Wings"
|by Anonymous||reply 110||06/26/2020|
SOMEONE has a worthless degree from Oberlin.
|by Anonymous||reply 111||06/26/2020|
[quote]IMO, there’s simply more reverence and respect paid to French and Italian cooking traditions. In general.
Dumbest comment ever.
|by Anonymous||reply 112||06/26/2020|
[quote]Someone pointed out that the Thais have no word for this and instead say, I have not learned to like this.
|by Anonymous||reply 113||06/26/2020|
[quote]No disrespect but this is a very American way of thinking about food and it is not the case in other parts of the world.
In my town in Italy there is a sushi restaurant run by Italians, a Japanese restaurant run by Chinese, an Indian restaurant with an Italian cook, an Egyptian owned Pizza place, and two Italian owned German beer halls, an Italian trattoria run by Albanians.
No one gives a rats ass about cultural appropriation. It is an ignorant American phenomenon.
Instead people are concerned about fresh and high quality ingredients. And they want foods that taste good to their palate.
|by Anonymous||reply 114||06/26/2020|
Ree Drummond is a home schooler and most likely a Trumpie, she gets no love from me. Fucking Karen
|by Anonymous||reply 115||06/26/2020|
Ree Drummond proves the point that saying "yuk" to an entire continent's food is racist.
|by Anonymous||reply 116||06/26/2020|
Are we supposed to be outraged by that Ree Drummond clip? Over exactly what?
|by Anonymous||reply 117||06/26/2020|
I don't get it either, r117. People have too much time on their hands because of the lockdowns and restrictions. Seriously, if people had to go to work or school as normal and restaurants, clubs, theatres, etc. were open people wouldn't have the time to scour the internet for a 30-second clip of some Karen taking a roasting dish out of the oven and then studying it intently to find something offensive about it.
|by Anonymous||reply 118||06/26/2020|
I guess the Japanese will have to close down their whiskey distilleries in Japan, since they appropriated it from the Irish.
Damned shame, they make delicious whiskey.
|by Anonymous||reply 119||06/26/2020|
People who scream cultural appropriation and racism in food are just sanctimonious shits. They’ll find and stretch anything you say to label you a racist.
I had a classmate who’s into all things Chicano/ Mexican (she’s Asian). Anyways we were talking about our love of authentic Mexican food when I committed the sin of being racist. All I said was one of the things that I love about Mexican food is that it’s a rustic cuisine, not fussy, not fine dining like French and Japanese food. Then she got offended and told me that it was racist to not consider Mexican cuisine as fine dining in the same way as French and Japanese cuisines. My reply to her was along the lines that it is okay for a cuisine to not be known for fine dining or haute cuisine. It doesn’t make it lesser just different. It’s pretty much the consensus that French and Japanese cuisines are known for those elements.
Anyways she got pissed off at me for saying even that and she assigned the racist label for me simply saying I like the rustic elements of Mexican food. What the actual fuck.
|by Anonymous||reply 120||06/26/2020|
[quote]All I said was one of the things that I love about Mexican food is that it’s a rustic cuisine, not fussy, not fine dining
The same could be said about most Italian food. It's not elaborate haute cuisine dependent on technique.
|by Anonymous||reply 121||06/26/2020|
^^^Exactly. Even had I used Italian food as example she likely wouldn’t consider me racist because Italians are white Europeans.
|by Anonymous||reply 122||06/26/2020|
^^^ yet you held Japanese food as an example of fine cuisine and that didn’t pacify her. Obviously there’s no pleasing her.
|by Anonymous||reply 123||06/26/2020|
[quote]Am I really the asshole here? Or is she just acting this way because no one likes to be called out?
You are DEFINITELY the asshole. Who gives a fuck if she wants to make vegan Jambalaya? It's really none of your fucking business.
|by Anonymous||reply 124||06/26/2020|
Well, I make these Chocolate Nuggers, which everyone just seems to love.
|by Anonymous||reply 125||06/26/2020|
Alex Delany has supposedly been suspended per Reddit. No idea why or if it's true. Brad has an Instagram post supporting greater diversity and pay equity and noting he worked his way up from a dishwasher in the test kitchen.
|by Anonymous||reply 126||07/01/2020|
There are recipes like those from the popular daily newspaper column "Aunt Priscilla," claimed to be the traditional recipes of an African American writer for the Baltimore Sun from the 1920s-1940s. They were instead written by a white woman using an Uncle Remus-y dialect.
|by Anonymous||reply 127||07/01/2020|
The latest in this idiocy is the editor of the Toronto Star has managed to help get a broth bar shut down for cultural appropriation.
[quote]a white owned trendy spot on ossington is selling bone broth across from golden turtle pho. also sexualizing “jerk” sauce and pho hot sauce and making “superfood dumplings” for profit? y’all im sick
[quote]the cultures they are taking from literally fight daily for legitimacy. the *wellness* cleansing of the food, the lack historical understanding, and the number of followers is alarming. im not tryna knock small businesses but damn, this one hurts
[quote]i legit threw out my chinese food lunches cos white kids would make fun of it all day. i bought into pizza day and dry ass turkey burgers. so did many others. and now you taking our culture and selling it? and people think it’s legit? damn
That's always the argument that confuses me the most: "I was bullied as a kid and now that people are accepting I hate it and must stop it!"
The store has now ended their partnership with the broth bar due to these "concerns".
These people ruin everything that's enjoyable in life! The comments under her Twitter are nearly all condemnatory of this Evy Kwong woman though, which makes for funny reading.
|by Anonymous||reply 128||Last Saturday at 11:47 AM|
There’s no such thing as cultural appropriation.
|by Anonymous||reply 129||Last Saturday at 11:48 AM|
I wonder if Evy Kwong is happy that she has just helped ruin someone's livelihood during a pandemic? What a good, virtuous person she is!
|by Anonymous||reply 130||Last Saturday at 11:50 AM|
If profit is involved, yes it’s bad.
|by Anonymous||reply 131||Last Saturday at 11:51 AM|
Haha, "stunning and brave!"
[quote]You ended someone’s livelihood in the middle of a pandemic! What a hero you are! So progressive of you! Stunning and brave! Yas queen!
|by Anonymous||reply 132||Last Saturday at 11:56 AM|
This would be frightening if SJW's had any impact outside of the internet. If I decide that I'm gonna make sushi for dinner and I'm a white man who the fuck is gonna stop me. Their insane level of policing doesn't work in real life, only from their keyboards.
|by Anonymous||reply 133||Last Saturday at 11:56 AM|
Shaming cultural appropriation only works on celebrities, businesses, and those within the public eye. That's the great thing about wokeness, it only works online. If a white woman decides she wants to wear a kimono to go out and get coffee nobody's gonna stop her.
|by Anonymous||reply 134||Last Saturday at 11:59 AM|
Anthony Bourdain would be cancelled now if he hasn’t died. Or....I guess they also cancel dead people?
|by Anonymous||reply 135||Last Saturday at 12:00 PM|
Except, R133, the case at R128 really did affect someone outside of the internet. The person who owned that bar is now without a livelihood during this particularly tough time. I don't think they are going to be able to just laugh it off as online stuff.
|by Anonymous||reply 136||Last Saturday at 12:01 PM|
I don’t think anyone is arguing that it’s wrong for you to make food from another culture in your own home. But, if you use their culture and traditions to profit that’s fucked up.
|by Anonymous||reply 137||Last Saturday at 12:03 PM|
I know I'm probably going to get red lined or FF'd or whatever for saying this, but this is why right wing politics are on the rise. This is why Trump got elected and then almost re-elected. Conservative politics are becoming more popular because of silly bullshit like this. People are tired of it.
|by Anonymous||reply 138||Last Saturday at 12:03 PM|
I can see both sides; on one hand, this whole thing seems like PC culture run amuck - the kind of thing that Fox News has a field day with. One the other hand, I could see some enterprise little millennial, going to some rural area of say Mexico, for example, adapting local recipes and never giving credit to the people or cultures that created the original recipe. As many others have noted, food is a mashup of all kinds of cultures and ideas and why police or change that? But it's not fair to take credit for the work of others in any context without acknowledging their contribution to the final product.
|by Anonymous||reply 139||Last Saturday at 12:05 PM|
There isn’t one single definitive recipe for every dish. And ethnicity doesn’t equate to knowledge of recipes and food, training / interest in culinary arts does.
|by Anonymous||reply 140||Last Saturday at 12:06 PM|
People of color make fun of white people's cooking and call it "flavorless, unseasoned, etc" but then expect for us to never eat anything other than white people food. Fuck off.
|by Anonymous||reply 141||Last Saturday at 12:07 PM|
There are actually a lot of bigoted foods for real. Interestingly, there’s just an incredible amount of bigoted food in Central Europe and Scandinavia. I would post pictures ... but I would probably get banned!
|by Anonymous||reply 142||Last Saturday at 12:13 PM|
Those comments on the Evy Kwong thread at R128 are hilarious - I don't think this is at all going in the direction she hoped it would, people hate her!
Funnily enough, people I know in real life are always encouraging experimentation with their recipes. I hear a lot about how Italians are really fussy about things being done properly, but the Italians I know are just like: "Oh, you don't have that ingredient, chuck this in, it's pretty much the same/will taste different but good" etc.
There's some feeling in the air at the moment that everyone wants to control everything and hold on to the "way things are meant to be". Perhaps it's come out of how much uncertainty there is about life lately?
Anyway, I just feel sorry for the woman in the story above who's lost her business.
|by Anonymous||reply 143||Last Saturday at 12:13 PM|
Bon Appetite has been a mess since 2018. It's been a steep downhill ride since then.
|by Anonymous||reply 144||Last Saturday at 12:15 PM|
Oh no, not sexualiszed jerk sauce!!!!!! 😱
|by Anonymous||reply 145||Last Saturday at 12:20 PM|
No it’s not, R137.
|by Anonymous||reply 146||Last Saturday at 12:22 PM|
Stop the insanity!!!!!!!
|by Anonymous||reply 147||Last Saturday at 12:24 PM|
Hahaha. Silver lining?
[quote]I’ve never seen such unanimity in the replies. In these polarized tines you have managed to bring people together, to forget their differences and tell you how much you suck.
|by Anonymous||reply 148||Last Saturday at 12:25 PM|
The pay discrepancies are inexcusable, if true, but the rest is a bit ridiculous IMHO. They'll need to begin with a new name for the magazine as well, as a French name could be charged as cultural appropriation as well. Oh the irony here is delicious.
An Anglophone country, whose citizens ordinarily resist learning a second language shouldn't be allowed to get away with this! It's an insult to the French speaking world, and a rip-off! How dare they!
|by Anonymous||reply 149||Last Saturday at 12:34 PM|
The whole people making fun of me as a child thing is I think the crux to this whole matter. It's revenge, pure and simple. A really, ridiculous form of revenge.
[quote]i legit threw out my chinese food lunches cos white kids would make fun of it all day. i bought into pizza day and dry ass turkey burgers. so did many others. and now you taking our culture and selling it? and people think it’s legit? damn
Also, she's talking about her Chinese food and complaining that this woman was selling Vietnamese food? Is Vietnamese food Chinese culture? I'm confused.
|by Anonymous||reply 150||Last Saturday at 12:39 PM|
Regarding their Evy Kwong....she saying “ya’ll” and “dry ass..” Sounds like she’s stealing dialectic!
|by Anonymous||reply 151||Last Saturday at 12:41 PM|
Gourmet was a MUCH better magazine. They wouldn't be entertaining any of this BS either if they were still around.
|by Anonymous||reply 152||Last Saturday at 12:52 PM|
Hahah R151! Good point!
What does make me laugh about people like her is that their arguments are so ridiculous and they can so easily be turned and used against the people using them as well. Wouldn't want to be a hypocrite now, Evy, would we? 😂
|by Anonymous||reply 153||Last Saturday at 12:57 PM|
We get it, you reactionary 'reverse racism'-screaming trash. You think that people of color are the REAL oppressors and you just hate, Hate, HATE it.
Safe spaces! Triggered! Snowflakes! Woke! Cancel culture! Far left! Twitter! Cultural appropriation!
A good 25% of threads on this site are nearly identical to what a person would find from the backwoods libertarian garbage on Breitbart.
Uneducated, sheltered, threatened small people finding every instance that someone demographically different than you says something unpopular so you can pile on with joyously smarmy contempt.
Every easy-target statement made by some random trans or POC in an article or on twitter just makes you salivate with sadistic glee at the thought of tearing them to shreds.
|by Anonymous||reply 154||Last Saturday at 1:02 PM|
[quote]And this is the real crux of it: You're making your identity crisis an 'everyone' problem when it's really just a 'you' problem.
|by Anonymous||reply 155||Last Saturday at 1:03 PM|
R149 Cultural appropriation apparently doesn't work from the pov of white cultures. Apparently you can't appropriate culture from white people. So they'd never have to worry about being accused of appropriating french culture, people don't think whites have any claim to a culture.
|by Anonymous||reply 156||Last Saturday at 1:03 PM|
Oh look, a twitter post from a guy who complains about "the shenanigans of fringe left-wing Jews".
|by Anonymous||reply 157||Last Saturday at 1:07 PM|
When will people realize that whites are the REAL victims of inequality!
|by Anonymous||reply 158||Last Saturday at 1:12 PM|
R154 has stated her boundaries!
|by Anonymous||reply 159||Last Saturday at 1:13 PM|
Tu quoque, Ooze.
|by Anonymous||reply 160||Last Saturday at 1:14 PM|
It's FOOD. It doesn't give a shit about the race of humans. It just sits there like an attention whore and screams "EAT ME!"
|by Anonymous||reply 161||Last Saturday at 1:16 PM|
Why does that bitch have a frog on her head?
|by Anonymous||reply 162||Last Saturday at 1:17 PM|
Oh man, another Ooze meltdown! Love it, more, more, MORE!
|by Anonymous||reply 163||Last Saturday at 1:18 PM|
Calm down, R154, you just get out of prison!!
|by Anonymous||reply 164||Last Saturday at 1:22 PM|
"Cultural appropriation" is not any sort of a thing ever.
|by Anonymous||reply 165||Last Saturday at 1:23 PM|
FF, Oozy, Bye, Felicia! Racist!
|by Anonymous||reply 166||Last Saturday at 1:23 PM|
Isn't Toronto meant to be the most multicultural city in the world? What is that girl's problem that some non-Chinese person sold a couple of dumplings with her juice business?
|by Anonymous||reply 167||Last Saturday at 1:30 PM|
Sweetheart, I'm eating broccoli and hummus and browsing. Don't flatter yourself.
The geriatric middle-brow ignorance of DL isn't ever going to reduce me to a puddle.
I saw it at every family reunion growing up. Old, backwards, white people scared of everyone unlike themselves.
Keep trying though, I'm sure you'll break me eventually.
|by Anonymous||reply 168||Last Saturday at 1:33 PM|
LOL Evy Kwong's colleagues are now posting tweets about how wonderful she is, the hardest worker, the best colleague... and all the comments under are like: "Yeah... best at destroying small businesses!" Hahaha.
|by Anonymous||reply 169||Last Saturday at 1:36 PM|
Anyone posted the Kwanzaa Cak yet?
|by Anonymous||reply 170||Last Saturday at 1:38 PM|
Is graxy racist?
|by Anonymous||reply 171||Last Saturday at 1:44 PM|
So, now people are claiming cultural appropriation because of their butt hurt feelings as a kid over some white kid making fun of their vindaloo or whatever? This is so childish, it's unbelievable.
|by Anonymous||reply 172||Last Saturday at 1:52 PM|
R137, "I don’t think anyone is arguing that it’s wrong for you to make food from another culture in your own home. But, if you use their culture and traditions to profit that’s fucked up."
|by Anonymous||reply 173||Last Saturday at 2:12 PM|
It's insane, I agree R172. And it's like chopping off one's nose, as the saying goes. Because people like Kwong are trying to stop any sort of cross-cultural interactions, which isn't going to lead to anything except more discrimination, more racism. She's probably one of those people who secretly get off an being able to claim victim status all the time.
|by Anonymous||reply 174||Last Saturday at 2:14 PM|
Every single woke person seems to be clinging to some weird childhood trauma that caused them to grow up and become a bitter, hateful, sanctimonious ball of anger.
|by Anonymous||reply 175||Last Saturday at 2:39 PM|
True to form, this woman who tells other people they can't do things because of their background, has a video of herself line dancing on Twitter too. Their arguments only ever go in one direction, it seems.
|by Anonymous||reply 176||Last Saturday at 2:43 PM|
Every claim of cultural appropriation, racism, etc that I've seen in recent years seems to be coming from a place of projection.
|by Anonymous||reply 177||Last Saturday at 2:44 PM|
This woman probably thinks the juice bar was diverting customers from the Vietnamese restaurant over the road, but surely the customer base would be different? Like, I feel most people shopping in an athletics store are really more interested in the juice, and maybe seeing food options they'll think: "oh, actually I'm hungry, maybe I'll have some soup too", but it doesn't follow that if there was no soup that they would be bothered to go across the road and dine at the restaurant.
Reminds me a bit of that brouhaha over American Dirt earlier this year, where people were saying: "if only she hadn't written a thriller about this topic, publishing houses would've lapped up my memoir" - they're not the same market, I don't think it works like that exactly.
|by Anonymous||reply 178||Last Saturday at 2:57 PM|
I made borscht last night and my dinner guests said I was a troll.
|by Anonymous||reply 179||Last Saturday at 3:11 PM|
The idea of cold soup has never appealed to me, so the thought of borscht isn't very appetizing... which might be a 'problematic' statement, whoops! Haha!
|by Anonymous||reply 180||Last Saturday at 3:22 PM|
I think George Floyd's horrible death was the breaking point for many people and in the culinary world, it allowed people of color to express their frustration and anger at white majority culture being the norm everything was measured against and its resulting economic injustice. . Bon Appetit was reorganized and the NYT's food section has recruited new writers and is embracing African food to a much greater extent.. While I understand and have no problem with these efforts, I no longer watch Bon Appetit's videos and will let my subscription to the NYT's food service lapse. Maybe it's a fair trade that while I find a lot of the recipes unrelatable, others finally feel included. So be it.
|by Anonymous||reply 181||Last Saturday at 3:51 PM|
I refuse to accept that when I try to cook different global cuisines I am guilty of cultural appropriation. I have always believed that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
|by Anonymous||reply 182||Yesterday at 8:56 AM|
Again, that is not the problem. The problem is using it for profit. That isn’t flattery, it is exploiting minority’s cultures and traditions.
|by Anonymous||reply 183||Yesterday at 9:03 AM|
R183 if a white chef who loves and has studied say, Chinese cooking, opens a restaurant serving Chinese cuisine, is that appropriation? He would presumably be making a profit.
|by Anonymous||reply 184||Yesterday at 9:06 AM|
If the issue is profiting off of other culture's food does that mean that white people can only open restaurants that serve baked potatoes and roast chicken?
|by Anonymous||reply 185||Yesterday at 9:08 AM|
I expect that it'll be considered cultural appropriation to eat at a Chinese restaurant if you aren't Chinese any day now. It's a slippery slope and we're currently experiencing the slide down.
|by Anonymous||reply 186||Yesterday at 9:09 AM|
Should I regret not having chitlins?
|by Anonymous||reply 187||Yesterday at 10:02 AM|
I'm sorry, R181, you're a colossal bore. And the whole " cultural appropriation" movement was going on much before George Floyd. It was largely the product of young WHITE women.
|by Anonymous||reply 188||Yesterday at 10:20 AM|
What are you talking about, r188? Most chefs are white males and they were "appropriating" cultures long before anyone. That is if you think that cooking outside your culture is appropriation. I don't think that, but apparently you do.
|by Anonymous||reply 189||Yesterday at 10:25 AM|
Having seen the way many of these people argue, they will undoubtedly say: "No one's saying you can't cook Chinese food, we're just saying you need to be mindful of the history and the culture and be culturally sensitive before you do." Everyone who cooks the food will be assumed to have not been mindful in any way, even if it's a chef who has studied the traditions for 10 years and has lived in the country and probably knows more about the traditions than Chinese people themselves. They always start out by assuming the worst about everyone's intentions.
|by Anonymous||reply 190||Yesterday at 10:27 AM|
If some self-appointed ninny squad thinks I'm going to give up cooking and eating Italian, an ethnicity of which I possess less than 1%, they're pazzo.
The world has lost its shit.
|by Anonymous||reply 191||Yesterday at 10:41 AM|
Yes, that is the worst offense. He is literally stealing a position that belongs to Chinese Americans. They should be profiting off of Chinese restaurants, not anyone else. There are poor Chinese Americans who can cook trying to get by and this man is exploiting their culture and making the benjamins. While underpaying the probable Asian staff at said restaurant. It is sickening what white people have gotten away with.
|by Anonymous||reply 192||Yesterday at 10:44 AM|
R191 - did you say "pazzo"? Combining languages like that, when you are less than 1% Italian?! Other languages are not there to decorate your English posts! Code switching has rules, you know! LITERAL VIOLENCE!
PS but congratulations on not italicizing it, because that would've been even worse!
|by Anonymous||reply 193||Yesterday at 10:53 AM|
[quote] It is sickening what white people have gotten away with.
White men are the reason you are able to type your idiotic thoughts behind a computer, dumbass. Show some respect.
|by Anonymous||reply 194||Yesterday at 10:57 AM|
R192 What if people prefer his food to another Chinese restaurant on the same street? Maybe the white guy is the better chef. Aren’t we supposed to look at people’s abilities, not their skin color?
Why do we infantilize people? We can all decide where we want to eat and which restaurants we prefer. We don’t need handholding.
|by Anonymous||reply 195||Yesterday at 11:31 AM|
I can promise you too that Chinese people don't care if a white man opens a Chinese restaurant. It's always bloody Yanks that go on about this shit.
|by Anonymous||reply 196||Yesterday at 11:34 AM|
My gawd, a bunch of jesting shirleys in this thread. I hope most of this is satire.
|by Anonymous||reply 197||Yesterday at 12:05 PM|
I can't speak for the whole country, but in Texas most 'cooks' are Mexican. Behind sushi counters, in Indian restaunt kitchens, Italian and Jewish delis, etc.
|by Anonymous||reply 198||Yesterday at 12:16 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 199||Yesterday at 12:23 PM|
Nothing to add to this except that I want doughy, missing-toothed Brad Leone to fuck me absolutely silly.
|by Anonymous||reply 200||Yesterday at 12:29 PM|
Had no idea who that was, so looked him up, and yeah, I think I would too.
|by Anonymous||reply 201||Yesterday at 12:34 PM|
Is R192 joking?
|by Anonymous||reply 202||Yesterday at 12:34 PM|
Unfortunately R202, I think they're deadly serious.
|by Anonymous||reply 203||Yesterday at 12:42 PM|
R192 IS Evy Kwong!
|by Anonymous||reply 204||Yesterday at 12:49 PM|
"it's attempting to take credit for another culture's food. Profiting off another person's methods which is what they did."
That is ludicrous. Please tell me what ethnicity wheat and eggs are. There hasn't been a community, society or culture since the dawn of civilization that haven't shared, borrowed, exchanged or interpolated recipes from one another. It not only promoted tolerance and understanding but also insured SURVIVAL. For anyone to claim that THEIR dish is the one and only original authentic one is incredibly ignorant.
|by Anonymous||reply 205||Yesterday at 1:45 PM|
Exactly, R205. Plus, most people don't actually care who is making their food, provided it is good. And that includes people from the communities whose food is being so-called "appropriated". Probably they also know that their cuisine has itself been inspired by other cultures too.
This is just a weird insistence that certain people in the world are perpetual victims and others are perpetual oppressors. It's so patronising!
|by Anonymous||reply 206||Yesterday at 2:05 PM|
It's a perverse state called "inverted empathy": somebody else's suffering becomes about you. Narcissism run amok.
|by Anonymous||reply 207||Yesterday at 2:48 PM|
This whole topic is very confusing. I just saw Roxane Gay and followers mocking white people because "they" never use spices in their food, apparently (which is bullshit, as my family do), but at the same time they're all nodding their heads sagely (see what I did there?) at articles talking about how white people using spices in their foods is "cultural appropriation".
Which is it, weirdos? You can't have it both ways.
Or, I suppose they think they can, as long as they have an excuse to complain and as R207 says, make it all about them.
|by Anonymous||reply 208||Yesterday at 2:53 PM|
Pretty soon even eating food that isn't from "your culture" food will be considered racist.
|by Anonymous||reply 209||Yesterday at 2:53 PM|
I'd never take an opinion of Roxane Gay regarding food seriously--she clearly has such a problematic relationship with it.
Actually, I think a lot of this is part of that weird puritanical relationship American women have with food. They don't know how to simply appreciate and enjoy it--there's always these layers of guilt, gluttony, overthinking, etc. over food. Right now, it's cultural appropriation, two years ago it was gluten intolerance, there's also veganism. It's just one food disorder after another--denial and guilt combined with binging and mindless, unhappy eating.
It's all very odd because good cooks around the world generally like to share--recipes and techniques get shared. People who don't have a twisted relationship with food generally like their cuisine to be appreciated. They like to talk about it. This current food appropriation thing is kind of demented and deeply perverse.
That said, the whole Bon Appetit dust up serves Conde Nast right. Gourmet was the better magazine by far, but they kept Ruth Reichl from developing an online Gourmet presence (they didn't want to dilute their Epicurious Web site) and chose to save Bon Appetit over Gourmet to get the younger audience. Well, they got it--at least online--and all the drama that goes with the narcissistic millennial crew.
|by Anonymous||reply 210||Yesterday at 3:05 PM|
[quote] It's all very odd because good cooks around the world generally like to share--recipes and techniques get shared. People who don't have a twisted relationship with food generally like their cuisine to be appreciated. They like to talk about it. This current food appropriation thing is kind of demented and deeply perverse.
Yep! This has been my experience too. When I was first living alone friends of mine from different backgrounds made it their mission to show me how to cook. We had so much fun, I learned heaps of great dishes - ones that are deceptively easy, but look impressive - I was taught how to mix and match, how to substitute, how to make meals through fusion and these people are still my closest friends today. These "cultural appropriation" people have never had real friends from different backgrounds to them, they wouldn't be so keen to talk over them and tell them how they should feel about things if they did.
|by Anonymous||reply 211||Yesterday at 3:12 PM|
[quote]I'd never take an opinion of Roxane Gay regarding food seriously--she clearly has such a problematic relationship with it.
Especially from a woman whose cooking resembles something you might see in a hospital bedpan.
|by Anonymous||reply 212||Yesterday at 3:14 PM|
Rolls eyes at R183.
|by Anonymous||reply 213||a day ago|
When these discussions come up, there are a number of complaints. Why was I forced to feel the food I grew up with was smelly? White food professionals are stealing my culture's ingredients or recipes and renaming them for a white audience. POC food professionals never get the breaks that white people do, and are stereotyped as ethnic cooks or food writers. Food magazines are written for white people with the food of POC rarely featured or interpreted inauthentically.
The only common thread is it sucks to be a minority.
|by Anonymous||reply 214||a day ago|
"White food professionals are stealing my culture's ingredients or recipes and renaming them for a white audience." Please give us an example of that.
|by Anonymous||reply 215||a day ago|
[quote]Why was I forced to feel the food I grew up with was smelly?
So were Italians.
And guess what? They don't give a flying fuck.
|by Anonymous||reply 216||a day ago|
Yeah, the idea that there aren't smelly foods out of Europe is sheer navel-gazing ignorance. Spain and Italy love garlic. Everybody, and I mean everybody, uses onions. The northern countries all use cabbage. Then there are the cheeses like limburger.
Basically, the Toronto Star idiot is using some long-ago memory of some kid's behavior to act badly as an adult. What a bitch. Well, live by the Tweet, die by the Tweet.
|by Anonymous||reply 217||a day ago|
Yeah, I've met some Italians of the immigrant generation and they will tell stories about how Australian kids didn't appreciate their foods at school, but it's never with this "oh woe is me!" attitude, they just view it as Australians not having been exposed to pasta before and being scared of trying unfamiliar foods, and of course now we all love Italian food so they were vindicated and it's all good.
I agree with R217's assessment of that woman, and I think honestly she probably believes that if she tells a sob story about being teased for her lunch as a child then no one can come back at her. It's a logical fallacy - argumentum ad passiones or appeal to emotion.
|by Anonymous||reply 218||a day ago|
Imitation is the highest form of flattery.
|by Anonymous||reply 219||a day ago|
R218 Expecting logic in place of emotion from someone on Twitter who centers their every waking moment around identity politics is a recipe for disaster and cancellation.
|by Anonymous||reply 220||a day ago|
Oh yeah R220, agreed, that's definitely true. You can't expect logic in the rantings of someone like her.
|by Anonymous||reply 221||a day ago|
Here ya go, R215--Alison Roman's the stew
|by Anonymous||reply 222||a day ago|
I am not a Sohla El-Waylly fan. Here she is calling Brad Leone "a big dumb white guy." She can't understand why anyone would prefer to watch him rather than her.
I find him attractive, informative and funny and I find Sohla none of these things. Her getting a shitty deal at BA earns my sympathy but does not make me a fan. Priya Krishna is a whiner. Rick Martinez is a god and they should have paid him whatever he asked. Every one of Christine Chaey's recipes I made were delicious, and I would love to watch her videos.
How are BA's new people?
|by Anonymous||reply 223||a day ago|
R222, that article is insufferable. Endless hand-wringing about ... I'm not sure. But it did become clear to me as I was reading the article, is that all this is about is that white is still the main color in media. This isn't about food, it's about media and the decisions of media companies about who to feature. Then I quit reading it.
|by Anonymous||reply 224||21 hours ago|
Evy Kwong is now trying to avoid the backlash by posting a nasty racist email she received, so she's definitely one for an appeal to emotion. The email is really nasty, but what's funny is many of the people responding have pointed out how it looks exactly like something typed up on Word rather than received through email. She's also not showing the person who sent it, but she was happy to go after a small business the way she did over something much less egregious, which isn't helping her case in being believed that she didn't write it herself. Anyway, regardless of the truth, it doesn't make her any less of a shit person for her actions. It just means she's in good company.
|by Anonymous||reply 225||18 hours ago|