What Ancient Rome Looked Like

Where are the cars?

Wouldn't there be horse poop everywhere? With your modern view of the world, medicine, science, human rights, etc. you'd have to be careful what you said or you could get into trouble. Wouldn't you be forced to watch gladiatorial games?

[quote] Where are the cars?

In the shop, Rose.

[quote] R2: Wouldn't there be horse poop everywhere?

I would assume so, but London, NYC, and elsewhere managed, so I imagine Rome had a cleanup crew, too. My parents remember pasture in Staten Island, where my Grandpa’s vacation home was. Horses were everywhere in NYC well into the 20th century.

[/italic] In New York in 1900, the population of 100,000 horses produced 2.5 million pounds of horse manure per day, which all had to be swept up and disposed of. [/italic]

[quote] With your modern view of the world, medicine, science, human rights, etc. you'd have to be careful what you said or you could get into trouble. Wouldn't you be forced to watch gladiatorial games?

Not forced or required. You had to buy a ticket, though tickets were also given away, depending. I don’t know how much freedom they had, but I don’t think the important people really cared what the rest said, as long as they knew their place.

I believe it looked a little bit more like this.

Looks like Beverly Hills. America is history repeating itself.

That video is actually Alexandria, Egypt. It's from a series of videos on cities of the Roman Empire.

I’m sure the slaves had a tough time of it.

I loved that cute but evil slave boy in Rome who finally gets beaten up and dumped in the sewer. He took his fucking like a champ!

Faaaaaabulous!

Fabulous. But it was built through a lot of horror.

I'm going to watch the animations for Greece and Egypt, too!

So, that's what it looked like if you were rich (and had a drone).

Well Cleopatra at R7, the makers identify it as Ancient Rome. Though it does appear that the Pharos Lighthouse was dropped into the harbor at Ostia, which also appears oddly close to the main city. Alexandria wouldn't have had hills and it wouldn't have had a coliseum.

Please. Italians have never kept a city that clean, ever.

Brings back some fond memories of my teenage years

Did you see this story OP?

^ They found my old house!

The Romans used vinegar with water to bathe. They weren't all that dirty.

R17 = Cheryl, delusional

If they bathed with vinegar they probably stunk

The romans were pretty clean. They had heated baths.

I went to the gay nude beach in Ostia just outside of Rome. Beautiful Italian men laying out naked, handsome faces, hot intact cocks soaking up the sun. Nice stroll through the bushes.

I have a souvenir book from Rome called "Rome Then and Now". It contains current pictures of historic sites on the left with site information on the right. In between is a semi-transparent overlay page that you put down over the Now picture on the left to transform it to look like it did in ancient Rome. I LOVE that book! I have one from Greece too.

The Villa d'Este fountains and gardens (in Tivoli - right outside of Rome) are beautiful! I can't wait to go back.

So where are the insulae of ancient Rome where the majority i.e.the poorer people lived. ? The insulae were the Roman equivalent of our modern apartment blocks without any modern conveniences.

R22, my folks brought similar books back from Rome 40 years ago. I loved them as a child. Still would, if I still had them.

If the afterlife is accommodating, I want to ask to go back and watch Roman history unfold over 1500 years, with occasional visits for dinner and a show. That’s what I want. Can you imagine opening day at the Colosseum? Or the Hippodrome? The Plaza Navona today is the old Hippodrome. I think I just read that, it seated 150,000 people and if it still existed, would still be the largest sporting stadium in the world.

Both the Colosseum and Hippodrome were engineering marvels because it is no small feat just to get those crowds to their seats without a riot, (even today), and they sold food and drinks, and had bathrooms, too. They also segregated people by class. I think they segregated people by gender, but can’t be sure. Then they had to get the rowdy, drunk spectators out of the stadiums quickly at the end of the event. The STARS network had a lot of cool stadium clips in the [italic] “Spartacus” [/italic] series, a few years ago.

Here’s a fun book from 1996. It is a murder mystery set in Rome in 52 BC, with a fictional detective who sticks his nose into actual historical events. The author, Steven Saylor, is a Gay guy and historian who keeps it Gay and real, as far as I can tell. He [italic] infuses [/italic] the book with a lot of Roman cultural trivia, like bathhouse etiquette; how they ate; wiped their butts, dealt with slaves and class issues, etc, IIRC, he writes Gay porn stories under a pseudonym. I liked the book so much, I bought most of his following books. I think I will re-read this one.

Anyone else read these books? Steven, are you out there?

Reminds me of New York in the 70's and 80's, before everything went to shit. (Kidding - but it's such a worn statement on DL.)

Obviously a glamorized version - hardly any people in the shots and everything is in pristine condition. There would have been a lot more people, horses, commerce, fires from cooking, etc. Everything looks like it was built at the same time too - no real age definition.

Glad to see they painted some of the temples - but I thought they were painted even more than that.

Romans believed in health and hygiene. Bathhouses were available to everyone. It was separated by class and gender.

They have central Rome right on the water. Rome is at least 15 miles from the sea.

They invented the bathhouse, which makes them a-ok in my book!

They take credit for butt fucking but we invented it.

This is what Assassin's Creed version of ancient Rome looks like. Historians agree that if you really want the ancient Rome experience move to Calcutta.

This is some sort of weird fantasy--it's a mix-up of certain elements of Rome (the Colosseum) and Alexandria (the Pharos, or gigantic harbor lighthouse). But it's also like neither--this city doesn't have the broad boulevards of Alexandria, and it is far too close to the sea to be Rome (which was now as it was then dozens of miles from the sea).

And it's far too pretty--you could never have a temple with all of its columns made of that bright red stone (is that supposed to be porphyry? it's far duller than that in real life); it would be far too expensive. And there's no dirt anywhere.

This is like the Malibu Barbie version of the ancient Mediterranean world: Barbie's Dream Imperial Metropolis.

There was a lot wrong with the video. The Colosseum Han statues in all the arches. There was also a huge statue of Nero outside it, during and after his reign. The lighthouse of Alexandrea is weirdly placed. Unless the depicted colosseum was actually a small version in Alexandria, , perhaps?

Oh, another problem, apparently they painted all their marble statues and columns. We see them as white today, only because the original paint has faded. Or was that the Greeks?

Was that supposed to be the Nike of Samothrace all up on the corner of that lighthouse?

Ancient Rome in the 2nd century AD was an extremely complex and advanced society. The infrastructure was well a oiled machine that ran no matter who sat on the throne. Plunk any of us down into that period and we'd find much that is familar.

It would be awesome to see what the Roman Forum looked like. I don't know under which ruler it was most impressive. It would be great to see Hadrian's villa at Tivoli. Just bring along a video recorder and record everything. The cruelty of the times would be hard to take - mistreatment of slaves, etc. Hopefully there wouldn't be any fatal infectious diseases that have disappeared before modern times.

I'd love to see Rome before it was sacked during the Renaissance -- in Michelangelo's lifetime I believe.

It would be awesome to visit the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World.

Does anyone have any books to recommend on the history of Ancient Rome that would appeal to the layperson?

Imagine when Rome was sacked for the first time! Rome had been running Western & Southern Europe, plus the Middle East and North Africa, for a few hundred years, and looting all that territory, and taking that loot back to Rome. It must have been filled with treasure of all kinds.

I'd like to go back in time to ancient Greece. And attend the ancient Greek Olympics and see all of those fit naked Greek athletes.

[quote]R37 I'd love to see Rome before it was sacked during the Renaissance -- in Michelangelo's lifetime I believe.

Come up and see my etchings.

[quote]Romans believed in health and hygiene. Bathhouses were available to everyone. It was separated by class and gender.

R27, until Christianity took over.

Christians were afraid that mansex was going on in the bathhouses.

R43, they were also afraid that bathing was going on in the bathhouses. The depicted teaching of Jesus on handwashing in the gospels was extended to speak to the Jewish custom of the mikveh, ritual bathing. The Christian imperative not to "judaize" led them to eschew bathing in general. The amount of stench a Christian could generate became seen as a marker of piety and virtue. "The Church attacked the habit of the bath on the ground that everything which makes the body more attractive tends towards sin. Dirt was praised and the odor of sanctity became more and more penetrating... Lice were called the pearls of God, and to be covered with them was an indispensable mark of a holy man. " - Bertrand Russell, [italic]Marriage and Morals[/italic], 1929, pp. 48-49.

Blugh.

Algeria has some of the best Roman ruins I've ever seen.

[quote]That video is actually Alexandria, Egypt. It's from a series of videos on cities of the Roman Empire.

Right, R7. Rome and Roman Empire get scrambled all the time, but an educational or quasi-educational YouTube channel might do better. (Not certain that they produced these videos as they start and end with no titles or credits which is a bit suspect.)

One part of it looks suspiciously like the interior of the Library of Congress.

R38:Does anyone have any books to recommend on the history of Ancient Rome that would appeal to the layperson?

In addition to non-fiction history, I occasionally enjoy well-researched historical fiction. One such novel I enjoyed was “Roma: A Novel of Ancient Rome” written by Steven Saylor. From a layman’s purely subjective experience, it was similar in feel to Ken Follett’s “Pillars of the Earth.” In both cases, I felt like I was walking down the inside of a cathedral, or in this case, that I was climbing the hills of Rome, or in the marketplace or in Jupiter’s temple, etc.

I am not a scholar on this period by any stretch of the imagination, so I will gladly defer to more knowledgeable people in this thread as to whether Saylor’s work was historically accurate or if he had errors. For someone like me, it was engrossing and very enjoyable to read. He has a whole series that followed this book.

Bonus: Saylor is a gay man. In addition to these books, he has written gay erotica set in the period (exploring such things as romance between gladiators, and other situations).

Some of the visualizations are very nice, but in their Modernist spareness and Pompeiian emptiness of people and rather suburban landscaping, they don't hint much at life.

Even this Renaissance palace built on an Ancient Roman scheme and with bits of Roman antiquity displayed everywhere hints at human occupation and voices, the fall of footsteps, doors opening.

Wikipedia entry for Steven Saylor including a list of his complete works.

[quote] Algeria has some of the best Roman ruins I've ever seen

Ever since I was a kid when I saw a black and white picture of the lonely ruins of Timgad in an old book, I’ve wanted to visit the Roman ruins of Algeria. Alas during my adult life Algeria has been forbidden to enter. R46, please tell us what you saw and how you visited Algeria. Thanks in advance.

That sounds like a really good suggestion, R49. Thanks.

If you want to visit a Roman villa, remember the Getty Villa in Malibu is free (with parking fees, must make reservations in advance). It's a nice art museum, with lots of antiquities from the ancient world, but the building and gardenss are meant to be the re-creation of a wealthy Roman's country villa.

As for ancient Rome itself, that sparkling video not only left out the horse shit, it left out the SMOG. Yeah, I'm told ancient Rome had a smog problem, this huge city jammed full of multi-story apartment buildings, where everyone was cooking and heating their places with open fires.

This is a great book on Ancient Rome. There is a similar one for Ancient Greece as well.

Did they have cookies in Rome? because Mr Saylor looks like he’s smelled some.

Thank you very much, R55. From the samples provided online, it does look very good. Funny how in this case the used books cost twice as much as the cheapest new one.

As many as 1 in 3 of the population in Italy or 1 in 5 across the empire were slaves and upon this foundation of forced labour was built the entire edifice of the Roman state and society.

When the Spartacus slave rebellion was squashed, the Romans crucified 6000 rebel slaves, lining the road from Capua to Rome with the crucifixions.

R57, I highly recommend it, it's so much easier to enjoy history when it's accompanied by maps and pictures (seriously).

[quote] When the Spartacus slave rebellion was squashed, the Romans crucified 6000 rebel slaves, lining the road from Capua to Rome with the crucifixions.

Hmmm. Ideas. I’ll call the Department of Homeland Security now to get them working on this. Is there a way for China or Mexico to pay?

If you want a popular history of Ancient Rome you will not be disappointed with the Nov. 1946 issue of The National Geographic Magazine featuring an article by Edith Hamilton The Roman Way with a collection of 32 paintings by the phenomenal artist H.M. Herget. Happily, I still own a copy of that issue but I'm sure that copies must still be available via Ebay etc. I think this issue was republished in book form with addiitional Herget paintings on ancient civilizations but I'm too lazy to track down the correct title. I wonder where the Herget originals are currently archived. Are they in the NGS collection ?

No one is wearing a mask! Now it’s clear why that empire fell.

Slavery in the ancient world was not the same concept of slavery in the modern world. In ancient Rome slaves ran the administration of the empire and sometimes had great influence. Think of them more as employees than the modern concept of a slave. Some people willingly sold themselves into slavery to work off a debt or other obligation. Many were able to buy their freedom and become wealthy. A wise slave owner didn't abuse his "investments" and made sure they stayed loyal to him. They were a valued asset to his family or his business.

R63, realize that we do not have first hand accounts from slaves in ancient Rome, only their owners.

Even in Roman comedy, the lot of a slave is not rosy. While there may be exageration for comedy, the humor only worked if what was presented was recognizable.

Most of your description of the situation of Roman slaves is very similar to many 19th century descriptions of American slavery. (Even more recently the claim has been made that slaves were willing and valued by their owners.)

If Roman slaves left behind autobiographies, you might have a different view.

"Think of them more as employees than the modern concept of a slave."

No, not really. Some Roman slaves were favored or even influential, but that didn't give them any legal rights. They could be, and routinely were, raped, impregnated, beaten or tortured, sold away from family members, castrated, or when they were old, abandoned to the streets or sold cheap to a mine or plantation that would work them to death. According to one historical novel I read (it may have been one of Saylor's), if a slave killed his or her master, every slave owned by that person was tortured to death as a matter of law, so that slaves would stop each other from killing their owners. There were also "public slaves", something that did not exist in American slavery. Those were slaves owned by the government rather than an individual, they did things like road work or sewer maintenance.

I suppose the biggest difference between the kind of slavery that existed in the early US and that of ancient Rome, is that the master could become a slave, if he lost his fortune, broke the law, or made enemies. Slave or master might be of the same race or different race or any races, as the Roman empire was extremely diverse, so race didn't play into social status the way it did for our ancestors.

Surely there must be one or two DLers who were born back then and can tell us the truth!

bump/

Wasn't there sewage flowing freely in the streets?

R68....

Say not always what you know, but always know what you say.

Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus (My favorite Emperor) Roman history: Livy, Tacitus, Suetonius, Sallust, Augustus's"Res Gestae" .

And of course Gaius Julius Caesar: •Commentaries on the Gallic War •Commentaries on the Civil War •The Alexandrian War •The African War •The Spanish War (The Hispanic Wars)

R68, I thought the Romans had sewage disposal pretty-well worked out?

I understand that they did just dump raw sewage into their rivers; though, and that their might be a second city down river that got their drinking water from the same river. I mean in the Roman world, not Rome in particular. The city of Rome got their drinking water from sources far away via gravity-fed aqueducts. IIRC, Steven Sailor relates how they worked.

I think that it was cities in Medieval times, up through the 19th century, that had sewage dumped into the streets. Plus, the streets were filled with horse manure, too. Part of the reason the King of France built Versailles outside Paris was to get away from the stink, noise, and disease of the city. London and Paris only started building their modern sewer systems between 1850 and 1880.

There was an outbreak of Cholera in London in 1854 that advanced the concept of “germ theory”. Those affected by the outbreak all got their water from the same well, which was just 3 feet from a cesspit. Can you imagine that it was this late in time that they were still trying to figure-out how germs worked?

Versailles was originally a hunting lodge until Louis XIV turned it into a massive palace. It also stunk to high heaven because there weren't enough bathrooms for the number of people living there.

I used to play Caesar II on PC. You build a Roman city in a part of the empire of your choosing. All serene until city reached certain pop. then fires, rancor, pestilence, etc. And everyone wanted more money to move to your outpost city and work. and they you have to protect it. All these people get paid. Not that easy. I had fun but could never master it.

It’s crazy they could build all that but could not invent indoor plumbing, cars or electricity.

They did build indoor plumbing, R75, at least for rich people. Read the thread.

Roman life was very much like our own in a lot of ways, with people living in big diverse but dirty cities in multi-story buildings, and following the chariot races as closely as we follow football. So the differences are a bit jarring, like the fact that they didn't have much in the way of medical care. Emperors would rule a multi-national empire with a sophisticated road and communication system, while bathing in water piped in from the Dolomite snowfields, then watch helplessly as their children die of toothaches or infected cuts.

Steven Saylor wrote that Marcus Licinius Crassus, [italic] "The richest man in Rome", [/italic] had a “fire department”. When there were fires in Rome, he’d go and his fire department would stand by as he bought the property at a “fire sale” price, and he’d lower the price as the fire did more damage to the property.

“ I'd love to see Hadrian and Antinous in action. It must have been extremely hot.”

Please please make a movie.

And the linked pic above of them fucking: fan fiction?

There was more mingling of the social classes in ancient Rome than in modern cities. As there were no elevators and no air conditioning, but there were multi-story apartment buildings... The poor climbed four flights of stairs to get to their stifling hot rooms on the upper floors, while the well-to-do lived downstairs, in rooms that were cooler, more spacious, and with easier access. And of course anyone who could afford a slave had some living in, in those days bachelors didn't have microwaves and vacuums, if they had any kind of income they went out and bought a female slave to cook and clean. And breed more slaves, if they liked that sort of thing, and could afford a woman of fertile age.

That's one of the oddest things about Roman society from our perspective, having so much work done by slaves. Instead of going to a hairdresser, the wealthy would own a slave who could cut and style their hair. Instead of having a favorite dry-cleaner, they owned their own laundry women. Freaky.

[quote] Instead of going to a hairdresser, the wealthy would own a slave who could cut and style their hair.

Trump's new slogan: "Make Slavery Great Again!".

Love this, OP. I played Assassin's Creed Origins (Egypt) and fell in love with it. I'm planning a trip to Egypt when this is all over. The Greece one was equally impressive. One of the things I love about playing video games that take place in ancient times is how accurate they are. The animation on this video is very similar to what those video games look like. Teachers use those games in classrooms to teach kids what it was like.

[quote] in those days bachelors didn't have microwaves and vacuums, if they had any kind of income they went out and bought a female slave to cook and clean.

Yes I saw that elaborated on in a documentary about Rome

It was also normal for an older man to have sex with another man as long has he was very young. Think daddy/boy couple. At a certain age though, that young man was expected to suddenly become a man and seek a woman as a wife. Rumor has it some hard a hard time transitioning to hetero.

Medical instruments from the house of the surgeon in Pompeii.

I recall going to a museum and seeing ancient Roman abortion instruments.

Yes, abortion has always been and will always be