Theatre Gossip #391: "Mummenschwantz Edition"

Oddly enough, it was likely bootleggers themselves who got the video taken down. They get very pissy when people share their stuff without paying for it - and no, they don't see the blatant hypocrisy. So there's a bunch of them who go around mass-reporting any bootleg then can find on YouTube.

Speaking of Drat the Cat, when wads it that Lesley Ann Warren turned into a raging cunt? Was she that way as far back as Drat the Cat or Cinderella or 110? Or was it of more recent vintage. Hers hasn't been exactly a stellar career, so it's weird if she became a terror later, as opposed to in 65-65, when she was briefly super-hot.

Does this thread not have a subject line? What gives?

R1 There's also many holier-than-thou people who chastise bootleggers. There are always a few of them commenting about not respecting actors and all that bullshit.

R4 Indeed, Patti Murin was doing just that on social media recently. But I lose sympathy when their defence of bootlegging is "we're making theatre more accessible to those who can't travel/can't afford it" - and then they limit the sharing of their bootlegs to people who pay or who have something to trade for it.

What was the name of that song from that Viennese operetta where we were both in the chorus? Something about a Schwantz... Mummenschwantz!

I got paywalled out of the previous thread, so I have two things about Sweeney Todd.

Whoever posted the Loudon "Nothing's Gonna Harm You" thank you for doing that. I agree that it was a bold choice for her and was very effective.

For those who saw the show live, was the whistle blowing startling to the audience?

[quote] For those who saw the show live, was the whistle blowing startling to the audience?

Oh, hell yes. It was much louder and more piercing when you where there getting the real sound, not a recording of it.

I practically jumped into the row in back of me when it first went off.

I attended the final preview of the original production of Sweeney and told a colleague I bumped into afterwards, "It's the first nihilistic musical."

Did anyone see The 39 Steps on Broadway about 10 years ago? What was it like?

I enjoyed it, R11. Silly but funny.

[quote] For those who saw the show live, was the whistle blowing startling to the audience?

Blew you out of your damn seat.

The sound and a lot of the style of Prince's Sweeney was influenced by downtown director Richard Foreman. The sudden earsplitting sound was a feature of many of his productions.

R5 Totally agree. I trade bootlegs because it's the only way to get bootlegs. What I find absurd is the fact people will film a show and keep it in a private collection. For instance, AuroraTheSpiderwoman (his Youtube uploads are regularly posted on the Theatre Forums) has a significant bootleg collection but will not trade/ share it with anyone. I find it bewildering. I believable some collectors develop an addiction of sorts and wants to amass as much as possible without sharing.

[quote]I believable some collectors develop an addiction of sorts and wants to amass as much as possible without sharing.

It's a psychological condition called Broadway Bootleg Hoarding.

I'm Miles Kreuger and I have no idea what some of you boys are saying about keeping my personal boots secret for years and years, because they are MINE, MINE, MINE!

For most of those people, the videos are more interesting than they are. And they know it. It's the best way they have to garner attention.

And you're never going to see their best videos. Not that I'm saying those videos actually exist.

Who was the Theatre Week who supposedly has the greatest collection ever? He wrote a book about Carrie.

Ken Mandelbaum wrote "Not Since Carrie," a book about flop musicals.

[Quote] AuroraTheSpiderwoman (his Youtube uploads are regularly posted on the Theatre Forums) has a significant bootleg collection but will not trade/ share it with anyone.

Just wanted to be noticed, I guess.

R11, I didn't see [italic]The 39 Steps[/italic] on Broadway but saw it when it moved to New World Stages. John Behlmann was excellent as Richard Hannay. The whole cast--John Behlmann, Cameron Folmar, Jamie Jackson and Kate MacCluggage--was good.

I preferred the New World Stages production to the later revival at the Union Square Theatre.

[quote]For instance, AuroraTheSpiderwoman (his Youtube uploads are regularly posted on the Theatre Forums) has a significant bootleg collection but will not trade/ share it with anyone.

You do know his identity, don't you? The name is mentioned elsewhere in this thread. And it's Aurora Spiderwoman, not AuroraTheSpidewoman.

He's a Portugese gay boy, right?

But no bootlegs of "Naked Boys Singing" other than some 14 minute thing that's now on porn sites (it's not porn, just naked)?

R23, are you saying AuroraSpiderwoman is Ken Mandelbaum? Are you sure? Mandelbaum is a huge asshole who never shares anything with anyone who doesn’t have something he wants. He also acts like he’s superior to everyone else. It would be very out of character if he is sharing videos with the peasants via YouTube.

Matt Doyle is also one of the bootleg shamers so ...

Many of these people are double minded. Patti LuPone spoke out against bootleggers, until a boot of her show at Les Mouches surfaced. I don't think she changed her public position, but I'm sure privately she was thrilled that that bit of her career had been preserved.

[quote] Whoever posted the Loudon "Nothing's Gonna Harm You" thank you for doing that. I agree that it was a bold choice for her and was very effective.

It was me r7 and posting it here again because it's so good. It's the moment at 5:00

What does she do at 5:00?

[quote]What does she do at 5:00?

A silent cry of anguish.

Oh is that what it was? I couldn't tell if it was that or if she was laughing. (The tape is pretty blurry)

I think most actors are actually happy with existing bootlegs because it preserves performances that would have been completely lost.

It's the same with opera singers. Leyla Gencer, who sang about the same time as Maria Callas, is known as the Queen of the Bootlegs because her stunning artistry is only remembered because of the number of bootlegs that exist of her.

Go back and watch it again, seeing it as a silent cry of anguish, r32.

[quote]Many of these people are double minded. Patti LuPone spoke out against bootleggers, until a boot of her show at Les Mouches surfaced. I don't think she changed her public position, but I'm sure privately she was thrilled that that bit of her career had been preserved.

Because LuPone is a perfect example, along with some other performers who shall remain nameless, of a person who only cares about her immediate needs and wants at any particular moment, rather than looking at the larger picture. I'm sure she'd be incensed to hear about any bootlegs of her performances that she has no interest in, but as you say, would be thrilled to know of one that had preserved a performance she'd like to see or hear. I wonder if she knows about and, if so, how she feels about the audio bootleg of her in an early performance in a certain show in which her singing is shockingly bad in terms of scooping and wavering pitch?

At 5:00, Loudon loses her shit for a moment knowing she has to get Sweeney to kill Tobias because he knows too much. Then she pulls it together... and goes on to get Sweeney to kill the kid. When Loudon set the kid up with the meat grinder, it was heart breaking. She was fighting back all the emotion she was feeling. 'Three times. I'll be right back, love.' It was tender and rife with sadness. It was clear to everyone in the theater that she was grief stricken knowing that this was the last time she would ever see him. She loved him. But she went off to have him killed, anyway. Eeeek! It made the whole story so much more monstrous.

During "God That's Good!", Loudon really played what Sondheim wrote for Lovett. In the RKO video, Lansbury seems a bit harried, but not much more. She did not go very deep with it. Not Loudon.

Loudon communicated "Oh, it's going to be hard to keep all this shit under control." She let us know during, "God That's God," that she was struggling to manage a lot of dangerous variables. Sweeney could wait quietly for his chair. But he doesn't. And he could wait until the close of business to rehearse his plan. But he won't. Tobias is sweet, but not much of a helper. The Beggar Woman could just go off and die, but no, no, no, she won't. They are all right there simultaneously and Loudon gave us a Lovett who knows she is driving a careening bus. She is pressed to keep everyone one happy and where she needs them to be. It is all exhausting and frustrating, but most importantly, Loudon let us all know it is dangerous!

The Beggar Woman's repeated appearance and what that means to Lovett is the most important thing in the scene. She just keeps popping up. I remember Loudon in full out anger screaming at Tobias, "Throw the old woman out!" But she keeps coming back. It was so different from the way Lansbury played it that I was taken by surprise and a bit confused. But on reflection, yes. Yes, of course. She is frantic for that old woman to stay away. The Beggar Woman is the character who can ruin everything for Lovett and she is the one person Lovett cannot control.

Instead of opening the 2nd act with an up tempo chorus number, Loudon's interpretation communicated to everyone to get ready for it, because it's all about to spin out of disastrously out of control. She amplified dramatic tension in a musical scene that is top heavy on words and business. I am so grateful to have seen her in this role.

R36, I agree with everything your wrote in your excellent analysis, EXCEPT I would say all of that is present in Lansbury's performance as well, just perhaps a bit less heavily underlined. Really, Lansbury is too good an actress not to understand and communicate what's going on subtextually in those scenes.

The vid is pretty blurry, but to me it looks like Loudon is overacting at the 5:00 mark. It’s almost like she’s biting her knuckle to emphasize that she’s upset. I love Loudon, but subtle she usually wasn’t.

Here is Loudon doing "Wait."

Dorothy was a dancuh!

She was really never much of singer, as the vid at r40 demonstrates.

You may not like her sound, r41, but she was a fine singer.

She was competent enough when singing in a limited pop style.

Well....whatever.

She relied too heavily on vibrato and growl.

r38 just remember how big that theatre is and how much of a melodrama Sweeney is. Also the scale of Hearn's performance (compared, say, to Cariou's). The show was certainly played on a heightened scale with them, although Lansbury wasn't exactly understated. It all worked, and the impact with Loudon & Hearn was huge.

[quote] When Loudon set the kid up with the meat grinder, it was heart breaking.

r36 is that scene online?

Again, you may not like her sound/style, r45. I'll take her singing over Carol's.

R36, Lupone played the moment chillingly in the Doyle production and more subtly. She just froze when she realized that she would have to kill Tobias and all the energy left face. The audience gasped even though she made no overt movement and did not do some big indication.

I have to give a giant, life size MARY! to R36.

But a very loving MARY! That is a wonderful assessment.

R36 - I love you. Even though I don't get what you did out of Loudon's performance (perhaps it just doesn't translate to video the way it did in the theatre,) I love your passion for and appreciation of Loudon's performance. For me that "5:00" moment is a bit over the top for my liking. Personally, I preferred how Lansbury played it. Don't forget, Jonathan Tunick's brilliant orchestration helps convey a lot of the subtext in that scene/song, too, by changing the accompaniment behind Lovett with that violin line sounding almost atonal as she sings.

How was Sweeney critically received originally? I was reading the original NY Times review online and I'd call it... mixed-to-positive.

SARAVA!

Oh, r51. Let's not and say we did.

[quote]I wonder if she knows about and, if so, how she feels about the audio bootleg of her in an early performance in a certain show in which her singing is shockingly bad in terms of scooping and wavering pitch?

Which show is this? I mean, everything gets taped from early previews these days, certainly at least audio if not video. Did she stink in early "Women on the Verge," or early "War Paint"? Or something else?

I presume the poster is referring to an EVITA boot.

[quote]just perhaps a bit less heavily underlined

That's my issue with Loudon. EVERYTHING was heavily underlined with her. She had no lows, just highs. She never underplayed. If this much was good, THIS MUCH must be better! I didn't see her in Sweeney. And she did keep it reasonably under control in The West Side Waltz, but I think she was really intimidated by Hepburn, and knew she couldn't lose control when it was Hepburn's show and she was just a visitor.

THIS is how one does Coward....

Has anyone seen the TV "Present Laughter" with Peter O'Toole and Honor Blackman?

Anyone else watch the Young Vic "Streetcar" with Gillian Anderson? I had so many questions -- Why have the set revolve constantly? Why does that set look like a chilly IKEA showroom when it's supposed to be shabby and sweaty-hot? (I had to laugh at Anderson being hidden in the tub behind the shower curtain for the scenes when she wasn't onstage.) Why is everyone so shouty even though they're wearing body mics when the auditorium doesn't look big enough to warrant them? Really, a 'motherfucker' tattoo on Stanley? It's all so try-hard. When Stanley said to Blanche, "We've had this date with each other from the beginning" I actually said out loud to the TV, You have?!

The only "Streetcar" I've seen onstage was the 1992 Broadway revival with Alec Baldwin and DL fave Jessica Lange. He was better than she was.

Loudon had a terrific "show" voice, no complaints about that. I'm surprised that she's such an adept dancer in that clip. I'll bet that talent was put to good use in "Nowhere to Go But Up," especially in the title song. In fact, depending on when that TV clip is (is it the Garry Moore show?), maybe it's inspired by Nowhere to Go But Up (roaring 20s, Loudon played a night club queen). For some reason, now I wish she had done a production of "Applause" and showed off her dancing (and gams) in it. God knows, she would have sung it better than Bacall did.

While this is not the best Streetcar, you have to watch with words like "supposed to." That usually means what you are used to, not what the script indicates.

I do think that the Ikea look conveyed the shabbiness. When people do not have money today, they buy that sterile uncomfortable furniture with no character. To our eyes today, the furniture in most production and in the Kazan film look like stylish antiques. This set made me really aware of the poverty of Stella and Stanley in a way I never saw before. The set was so far removed from Belle Reve that I understood Blanche's repulsion for the apartment.

I don't think Patti's rotten preview singing was in Evita. I saw the one and only preview in LA the day before opening, and she sounded fine. Her dancing sucked, was embarrassing, in fact (in Buenos Aires) but there was nothing wrong with her singing.

That clip from Hay Fever is fantastic. I'm afraid the art of acting in high comedy/Noel Coward is rapidly disappearing. I rarely see actors who know how to do what Smith and the other actor do with it. I wonder if there's anything from her "Private Lives" on tape?

" Lupone played the moment chillingly in the Doyle production and more subtly."

The only thing she played well in the Doyle production was this.

Good point, R60.

I don't know, r62, but I do have my wonderful memories of it...

R58, that was Alec in all his fuzzy-chested glory. God, he was so hot in that production. The poster is pretty hot, too. Onstage, Lange was quite mediocre, as I recall. Every time she had an important point to make she lowered her voice dramatically, sometimes in mid-line. I can't remember if she was any better by the time they taped it for TV.

Did Kathleen Turner ever play the role? It might be interesting to see a more sturdy (initially) Blanche. Though I guess Ann-Margret falls into that category.

I saw Loudon in Jerry’s Girls (Sunday matinee, last performance before Chita’s accident). Loudon did a surprisingly subtle, understated “Time Heals Everything” in a black cocktail dress, like an old-time chantoozie. I think her husband had died the previous year or so, so maybe she was channeling her real sense of grief. The rest of the show, she was her usual “big” self (sometimes to good effect, sometimes less so). Uggams, of course, had the “best” voice, but she was kinda dull. Chita had it all, even though the revue was a trifle.

Bebe Neuwirth was on Match Game, yes that Match Game and she had the worst chair, the last one. You know, the one Patti Deutch used to sit in. Well, the question was "The magazines at my doctor's office was so old that it had an interview with..." Bebe said "Alec Baldwin". He laughed but I wonder what he would have done if Bebe said "Alec and Kim".

[Quote] I think her husband had died the previous year or so, so maybe she was channeling her real sense of grief.

More like a half decade or so.

Broadway League President Hopes for January Reopening—with Full Theaters and Masks:

Brackie?

Kathleen Turner would have been a fascinating Blanche up until about the mid-90s. I personally think a sturdier and stronger Blanche helps the show. If Blanche walks into Stella's place totally broken and ready to play the final scene of the show, it makes for a dull evening. She can't appear like she's already given up. I like Ann Margret's performance a good deal because of this. When she first arrives, you just think she might be a little shaken up due to losing her family estate, being fired, and having a bit of a drinking problem, but as the show progresses, you start to see how hard she's gripping on to what little sanity she has left. It makes it more heartbreaking when she finally loses her battle.

Lange played a broken Blanche from the start and it didn't work at all. I normally love her work, but that might be one of her worst performances and she seemed like such a great fit on paper.

Do directors ever try to stop actors from playing the ending from the start? You'd think that, at some point, they's say "hey, can you start this character off on a lighter note so the audience can warm up to them a bit and have a little hope for them?" You see it in a lot of productions of Gypsy and Sweeney Todd as well where the leads are angry, bitter, and ready to play the finale from their first entrance. It's so boring.

Isn't storytelling about taking a journey? What journey can you go on if the lead character is already at the destination within the first 5 minutes? Do directors think this is some edgy form of storytelling?

Patti LuPone goes from Broadway to "Hollywood" and could get one step closer to EGOT:

Some stars can't be directed.

[quote]Really, a 'motherfucker' tattoo on Stanley? It's all so try-hard.

R58 Well, Stan was in the army, and even back then they often got tattoos. In fact, military men were the main people to get tattoos back in the day.

[quote]Patti LuPone goes from Broadway to "Hollywood" and could get one step closer to EGOT:

First, Patti will never get an Oscar. It just won't happen.

Second, how many years did she do "Life Goes On" and was never even nominated for an Emmy? She's not really made for tv.

She will have to settle for Tony and her shared Grammy.

Geri Page got her Oscar.

Her If He Walked Into My Life was pretty great, r68. Just her...the gown...and the staircase.

r79 - I don't think R78 was saying Patti will never win an Oscar because of her lack of film roles (though, of course, that's part of it,) but perhaps because she's not a great screen actress. She can be effective in the right part, with a strong director (she certainly rises above the material in 'Hollywood') but she's a theatre animal through and through.

My favorite thing I've seen her do on screen (big or small) was play herself on Girls. Sorry to bring up Lens Dunham. I know she's a trigger for the eldergays, but Patti was hilarious playing a slightly fictionalized version of herself.

Actually, I take that back. THIS may be my favorite performance of hers. Again, she was playing herself. And Leslie Mann played Bernadette.

What about Patti Lupone's Blanche DuBois?

Is THIS Elysian Fields?????

Incidentally, Kellie Martin and Chad Lowe were the only actors from LIFE GOES ON to be Emmy-nominated . Chad even won.

Chris Burke was nominated for a Golden Globe.

Patti is pretty funny in the clip at R81, and it's nice to watch her having some fun with her public persona.

I find Andrew Rannells excruciating, by comparison: mugging, overplaying everything in boldface italics. Lena Dunham isn't much of an actor, but she's refreshing in that scene.

R85 - the entire episode is a hoot and Andrew Rannells gets some of the best lines in that episode. There are endless theatrical references to everyone from Sutton Foster to Tyne Daly.

I bet LuPone chose "Troy Donahue."

Patti is truly a force of nature on stage. You can't take your eyes off of her. The first time I ever saw her on stage, it was truly a religious experience. I couldn't comprehend how this woman could do this and 8 times a week at that. That said, I've never seen her be anything more than passable on film/TV. She's competent, but she doesn't have the "it" quality for film work. And no, it has nothing to do with her look.

Some people really are creatures of the stage in the same way that I've seen a lot of wonderful film actors come to the stage and fall flat on their face with no sense of stage presence at all. Jessica Lange was mentioned earlier and she's a great example of that. She's luminous and exciting to watch on film, but stick her on stage and she doesn't register at all.

It's a very strange phenomenon.

I've been disappointed/underwhelmed by any number of film/TV actors I admire in their stage appearances over the years:

Laura Linney (twice, most surprisingly, as she's done a lot of theatre); Mary Steenburgen, John Laroquette (admittedly, in a truly terrible play), Mare Winningham (who many people seem to adore onstage--I wasn't feeling it).

Speaking of Linney, she wasn't bad in the now infamous HEDDA GABLER in the early 90, which starred Kelly McGillis in one of the worst professional stage performances I've ever seen. Only Ashley Judd in PICNIC comes close.

In the mid 90s, a friend was coming from California to NYC for a week. She called in advance with questions about what was playing at the time on Broadway. She had her list of possibilities and Master Class was not on it, which I found odd as she is an opera fan. So I mentioned "Master Class."

"NO! Absolutely not. I just read the first actress is leaving and she's being replaced by Patti Lupone and I've never heard of anything so ridiculous in my life. Patti Lupone as Maria Callas? NO!"

She was irate about this casting. I asked a few questions to understand this very strong opinion and suggested that Patti Lupone was a very good actress. "Patti Lupone may be the best actress in the world, but it makes no sense to hire a black woman to play Maria Callas."

It all fell into place. "I believe you are thinking of Patti LaBelle. She is black. Patti Lupone is not."

"Oh. Well, who the hell is Patti Lupone?"

After that moment, I always wanted to see Patti LaBelle in Master Class. SHE has a look.

Julia Roberts is not a great actress, but IMO she lights up the screen. However, she really had no stage presence when she did that THREE DAYS OF RAIN play.

[quote]Why is everyone so shouty even though they're wearing body mics when the auditorium doesn't look big enough to warrant them?

I'd assume the mics were for the recording, and perhaps expecting them to adjust their performances for one recording was deemed a bit much to ask?

[Quote] However, she really had no stage presence when she did that THREE DAYS OF RAIN play.

Wow, I completely forgot that I saw that. Yes, completely forgettable

Roberts was truly a non-entity on stage.

[Quote] expecting them to adjust their performances for one recording was deemed a bit much to ask?

Lonny Price expected it for the Gypsy BBC recording...

I watched the Old Vic Streetcar last night. Both Gillian Anderson and the one playing Stella’s accents were bad. “Sensation” pronounced as “sen-SIGH-shun”? Uhhh...no. Corey Johnson, that dull as dishwater Yank who played Mitch, should have had them corrected via the director.

I was on the wedding reception set of The Comedian when director Taylor Hackford lit into Patti LuPone for having her corsage on in one shot but apparently forgot to put it back on between set ups for the next one (it was really the costume department’s fault). And you can see how bad it looks in the scene. Hackford yelled at Patti “That’s fucking unprofessional!” If DeNiro wasn’t sitting next to her she might have walked off.

R89, did you see Julianne Moore in that David Hare play? I gather the play itself was just not good at all. And Moore suffered from it, apparently.

Dorothy Loudon's performances on some of the early Ben Bagley recordings were wonderful, especially "Bye and Bye" on the Rodgers and Hart. And her two solo discs on DRG has some great singing.

I get the feeling that some of the comparisons of Loudon and Lansbury were from live viewings of Loudon and the video of Lansbury . If so, not fair. The video of ST can't compare with seeing it live. And the video is not the best capture of AL's work.

You know who *really* had no stage presence? Madonna. Has a bootleg of "Speed The Plow" ever shown up?

Gillian Anderson is American. Well, now she has British citizenship. But her family is from the Midwest. They relocated to London for her father's job when she was a baby. They moved back to the US when she was around 10. She didn't return to live in the UK until the early 2000s, after X-Files ended when she was in her mid-thirties. Prior to that, she lived in Canada when X-Files filmed there.

"seeing it as a silent cry of anguish"

It couldn't be mistaken for anything else. Very moving and bold, true, but I wonder if it's too nuanced for the Grand Guignol/penny dreadful-characterization of Mrs. Lovett. Just a thought...

[quote]While this is not the best Streetcar, you have to watch with words like "supposed to." That usually means what you are used to, not what the script indicates.

Nope, sorry R60. In this case, the script definitely indicates what the set is "supposed to" look like.

For example, Blanche says to Stella: "Never, never, never in my worst dreams could I picture -- Only Poe! Only Mr. Edgar Allan Poe could do it justice!"

How in the world does that set match that dialogue? Was Poe partial to white & chrome & plastic chairs? Ferchrissakes, there's an automatic drip coffee maker sitting on the counter!

This Young Vic production is easily the worst I have ever seen of STREETCAR. It's like it was mounted by people who had absolutely no clue about the South, New Orleans, Tennessee Williams or the play itself.

Europeans doing Tennessee Williams tends to be cartoonish. I'd be interested to see some Euro Williams productions without Southern accents. I'm not bothered about the Ikea set. (Anderson's vocalizing, OTOH...)

LOVE Gillian Anderson's work on screen. But, yeah, y'all weren't kidding about her vocal performance in Streetcar. So strident and screechy. Such a shame.

"However, she really had no stage presence when she did that THREE DAYS OF RAIN play."

And the flattest speaking voice in cinema history.

"That's my issue with Loudon. EVERYTHING was heavily underlined with her. She had no lows, just highs. She never underplayed. If this much was good, THIS MUCH must be better!"

That's because she was a farceuse and low-crotch comedienne. That was her specialty--and she excelled at it.

Patti had to excellent opportunities to snag an Emmy and an Oscar.

When she played Lady Bird Johnson in LBJ: The Early Years could have been an Emmy win. Unfortunately, Anne Haney blew her right off the screen.

When she played Florine in Driving Miss Daisy could have been a supporting Oscar win.

Both were very high profile projects.

[quote]low-crotch comedienne

Pics please.

Speaking of Patti and DAISY ... no, let's not go there. Some casting possibilities are too horrific to imagine.

The British have never "got" Tennesse Williams. Check out the 1970s TV production of Cat on a Hot Tin Roof with Robert Wagner and Natalie Wood, directed by and starring Olivier as Big Daddy. He's dressed like Colonel Sanders and the rambling farmhouse where they live looks like Twelve Oaks. It's completely over his head that these people are trashy backwoods nouveau riche, not old Southern aristocracy.

Natalie is actually pretty good though. Good cat.

r109

That's partly why I'd like to see a production stripped of all the expected Southernisms. I presume the IKEA set was part of a similar rationale. Forget about all the classic scenic elements that have become campy (probably always were but...). The Anderson production had lots to criticize but I don't think the set was completely wrongheaded.

RJ Wagner as a possible bisexual? I don't believe it!

I've seen Cat done with Irish accents. In my opinion it's a very overrated play as it is, but ignoring the setting doesn't work overall. Scenes can go by totally fine until a more southern US turn of phrase comes up, rendering the Irish accent/neutral setting ridiculous.

Though Lorca's Blood Wedding in Irish accents worked tremendously

[quote]The British have never "got" Tennesse Williams. Check out the 1970s TV production of Cat on a Hot Tin Roof

You don't even have to go back that far. Check out the weird-ass "Cat" from a few years ago with Sienna Miller. Check out that dress on Big Mama. Straight out of Forever 21.

How is Sienna Miller still getting prime stage roles?

[quote]When she played Florine in Driving Miss Daisy could have been a supporting Oscar win.

She was barely in that. I was surprised when Dan Akroyd got a Supporting nod.

R53 and R54 -- no, THE ROBBER BRIDEGROOM. A very, very early LuPone performance. (I meant early in her career, not early in the run of any particular show.) Her singing on that tape is almost shockingly bad.

R55, I generally agree, but I do seem to remember that Loudon was quite understated through most of BALLROOM. She really had to be, because that's the character. Of course, I'm not including the climax of "50 Percent."

R60, whatever. It doesn't matter because, like most plays written more than 70 YEARS AGO (or even half that long ago, or one third that long ago), STREETCAR just doesn't work if you transfer the action to the present day. For many reasons.

R74, of course, any good director would keep an actor from playing the end of the story at the beginning. I think that's a trap people actors and directors tend to fall into more often in revivals than in original productions. Arthur Laurents was very bad about that, among other things.

[Quote] STREETCAR just doesn't work if you transfer the action to the present day.

I don't think a modern dress production automatically means the play is taking place in the present day.

If Streetcar was in modern day, Blanche would have arrived in an Uber, not on a streetcar. "An Uber Named Desire."

In the original Annie, how did Laurie Beechman get an under title credit? It was her first Broadway show and she was just glorified chorus.

Wasn't she Star to Be?

R116, both times I saw Glenn Close in Sunset Boulevard she played Norma as a loony tune from her first entrance. That had to have been her choice.

Well, R 121, she was never meant to be played as a "looney tune."

[quote]I don't think a modern dress production automatically means the play is taking place in the present day.

Then what the hell does it mean? Please enlighten us.

I've seen Shakespeare in various forms of dress. I've never thought: "Oh, now the characters are from... the Russian Revolution" - not when the text remains the same.

Indeed she was, r120....

That makes no sense, R124. Costume design choices shouldn't be arbitrary.

Andrea remembers Laurie...

[Quote] That makes no sense, [R124]. Costume design choices shouldn't be arbitrary.

Sometimes a change is as good as a rest.

Thank you, R127. That was lovely.

[quote]Wasn't she Star to Be?

Isn't that just a glorified chorus part?

Olivier as Big Daddy. I'll have that chicken with a side of coleslaw and mashed potatoes with gravy, please.

Olivier as Big Daddy. I'll have that chicken with a side of coleslaw and mashed potatoes with gravy, please.

Did anyone see DL fave Kim Criswell as Big Momma? I think it was a London production.

Kim Criswell as Big Mama?! Did they interpolate Blow, Gabriel, Blow for her?

I think Stephen Sondheim had Criswell's production shut down as part of their long running feud. Sondheim has great powers.

[quote]Second, how many years did she do "Life Goes On" and was never even nominated for an Emmy?

So? That's irrelevant, considering she has two Emmy nominations under her belt now.

LuPone played herself on "Will and Grace," and one of Frasier's never-previously-mentioned Greek relatives.

Kim Criswell as Big Mama? That really happened?

I know Sondheim hated her, but the "incident" was thirty years ago. I doubt he still holds a grudge.

Oh, I see. So you have a production of STREETCAR with Ikea furniture and modern costuming, so it looks absolutely like it's supposed to be taking place in the present day......but it's actually still supposed to be taking place in the late 1940s or early '50s.

Got it.

You are obviously the perfect audience for one of those productions.

It was a tour, that played the Royal Exchange in Manchester, among other venues.

[Quote] In fact, Kim Criswell’s performance as Big Mama is a spectacle in itself: an irresistibly overblown redneck with such presence as to, at times, eclipse the whole cast.

It sounds like she was wasted not playing the father.

What was the Criswell/Sondheim incident? I remember there was one but it was so long ago I don't remember anything about it other than he never wanted her in one of shows again. Or maybe I've even got that wrong. What happened?

Was it Criswell that came to audition for Merrily We Roll Along and during the audition told Sondheim what was wrong with the show and how he should fix it?

Cat with Sienna.

Re: Criswell, from another poster, 61 threads back:

“Kim Criswell fucked over her own NY career by insulting Sondheim to his face when she was auditioning for the Kennedy Center "Merrily." No one would touch her after that. She had to go to England, there was nothing left for her here. Fortunately for her, she found a guy and a career in the UK and is happy there.

I can't remember the details, but she went in for Gussie - this is the one in, I think, 1990 or so. After La Jolla, but the first really big revival on the East Coast since it bombed in NY.

There was some comment made to her at the audition that the show was being rewritten, including some of the songs. And Criswell replied something to the effect that it was a good thing they were rewriting it because it had been such a bomb before, but not as delicately as I put it. In typical Criswell fashion, she was trying to be funny, and it fell flat. Sondheim was pissed. He called her agent and told her she would never do one of his shows.

The word got around and toxic to Sondheim = toxic to NY. For a while her friends were calling her "Mrs. Sondheim" as a joke.

Anyway, McGlinn rode to her rescue. He had already used her for some of his CDs, but he began to get big concert work over in England and he always hired her. That's what got her seen over there, and her own career developed.

Later, when McGlinn's own career was pretty much over, she did her best to get him work conducting (rare) or doing some arrangements for her when she was hired for a concert gig. She's an ass, but she's loyal, and sometimes she literally put food on McGlinn's table by continuing to use him.”

Has there ever been a true EGOT winner?

Emmy = acting

Grammy = singing

Oscar = acting

Tony = acting

Usually, an EGOT winner gets their Grammy for doing a spoke word album and/or producing a Tony musical or play. In Streisand's case, her Tony was a special award though she had been nominated twice for acting prior.

That photo of Olivier as Big Daddy validates what the earlier poster said about how misguided that TV production must have been.

I thought Taylor as Maggie the Cat was very good, one of her best performances. Not a brilliant performance, but she was well cast. I've always wondered what Barbara Bel Geddes was like in the original production. From her later work, I wouldn't think to put her in that role but she was talented and well reviewed.

The first Maggie I saw onstage was Elizabeth Ashley. All I can think to say is Oh, my God. OH MY GOD. Williams said she was his favorite Maggie.

There's footage of Bel Geddes and Gazarra. I think I saw it as part of the Broadway: Golden Age doc.

[quote] Has there ever been a true EGOT winner?

Rita Moreno

R123, have you ever seen the Broadway revival of Chicago? The play takes place in the 1920s but the costumes are contemporary.

I doubt anyone seeing it thinks that it takes place today and that men wear sheer tops when they go to watch courtroom proceedings.

And I do not think the costumes are arbitrary.

R148 Wasn't her Grammy for The Electric Company? And it was shared with others? I meant someone who has won a Tony, Oscar, and Emmy for an acting performance, and a Grammy for a solo album or single?

It’s sort of unfair to not include songwriters (who also may produce) as true EGOTs. Thus, Richard Rodgers, ALW, Tim Rice, Marvin Hamlisch, Jonathan Tunick, Robert Lopez and John Legend have all earned it fair and square. True, ALW, Rice and Legend qualify with producing for at least one of their four, but it does not appear as those were cursory credits in any case and they were active producers.

Well, Lopez only qualifies for EGOT because of a Daytime Emmy for Wonder Pets! so perhaps eliminate him from the “worthy” composers list (at least for now).

If the nomination and the award was good enough for the body giving the award, it's good enough for any of you people here.

If they have the damned award, it counts.

Rodgers was one of the first, if not the very first, to have an EGOT and I think his noms helped invent the term. He's fine and sends his love.

BBG....

Daytime Emmys don't count toward EGOT status.

Patty should have received an Emmy for her one episode appearance on Penny Dreadful.

And of course both Rodgers and Hamlisch are PEGOT (with Pulitzers). Certainly, had ALW/TR been eligible an argument could be made that either Jesus Christ Superstar and/or Evita were as worthy as their competition (no award was given in 1972 and 1979 was for Shepard’s Buried Child which is certainly a lesser dramatic achievement than Evita). I’m sure few here will agree....

Thanks, r155!

An Emmy should be an easy one for Sondheim with a TV version of Gypsy.....oops.

R157, surely you know that the Pulitzer is for “for a distinguished play by an American author, preferably original in its source and dealing with American life,” Evita does not meet these criteria, regardless of your dubious claim that it is a greater work than Buried Child.

Bobby Lopez is actually the only double EGOT winner. And he has three Oscars and three Tonys. Given his track record, it's conceivable he could end up a triple EGOT.

Do you think Lin Manuel is jealous of Lopez, who became an EGOT in just ten-years' time? Lin Manuel would've had his in 8 years, but lost for the MOANA song to Pasek & Paul's LA LA LAND song.

If there's a TV version of Gypsy that gets the Emmy, both Sondheim and Styne would become EGOTs. Craig Zadan might have made it happen. RIP.

R161 Lopez has 2 Oscars out of 3 nominations.

There are fifteen EGOT winners with awards all from competitive categories and another six EGOT winners where at least one award is from a non-competitive category. (This latter group includes Barbra Streisand and Liza Minelli).

The competitive EGOT winners for acting performance are: Helen Hayes, Rita Moreno, John Gielgud, and Whoopi Goldberg. (The others are for composition, writing, directing etc.) Whoopi's Tony is for producing Thoroughly Modern Millie. The other three's Grammys are all for spoken word recordings.

So no, there is no EGOT winner who has the EOT for performance and a G for a singing performance but spoken word is just as much a performance as song.

R149 Chicago doesn't have any sets/props, and is presented as a sort of concert version.

R160, I clearly stated “had they been eligible”. One could make the claim Jesus Christ Superstar would have qualified and justifiably won had it been written by American authors, though I would have given to Tiny Alice if that was indeed the season that premiered. And, Superstar and Evita both have had a more lasting impact and more meaningful theatrical legacy in the intervening years since Buried Child (which is good, but not as good as Evita).

[quote] If there's a TV version of Gypsy that gets the Emmy, both Sondheim and Styne would become EGOTs. Craig Zadan might have made it happen. RIP.

No, no, no! If they got Emmys for a retread of a 60 year old show, it would not count. No!

And before I’m corrected, Tiny Alice was in 1964. But, Albee’s All Over in 1971 is brilliant and criminally underrated. But, perhaps The Effect of Gamma Rays... earned it. Since it is never revived and very dated at this point, who knows.

Just looked up Buried Child. Sounds preachy.

R163, what Emmy would Sondheim and Stein be eligible for?

R170, far from it. Too ambiguous to be preachy.

It is too back that no can do the original 1979 script which is better than the later revision.

[quote]Just looked up Buried Child. Sounds preachy.

Sam Shepherd's plays are great reads, but they never work onstage.

R166, there is a set in Chicago. The orchestra is in a kind of box construction and there is a sort of large gilt frame and ladders on the side.

You call it a kind of concert presentation, but audiences see a show in which the set and costumes are non-representational. That was what the discussion was about.

There are a lot of productions where the costumes are contemporary even though it is understood that the story is set in the past. And lets not even get into post-modern stagings where periods and styles are mixed.

You still mostly see this in classical works, but Chicago, the recent Okalahoma, most productions of Sweeney Todd in the last two decades, etc. have also had contemporary costumes for a work taking place in the past.

[quote]what Emmy would Sondheim and Stein be eligible for?

Stephen and Gertrude?

Since it’s been mentioned, is not Chicago the finer dramatic work than A Chorus Line and deserved the Pulitzer? There’s no question that it is a much more important American play dealing with American issues that matters more now.

[quote]You still mostly see this in classical works, but Chicago, the recent Okalahoma, most productions of Sweeney Todd in the last two decades, etc. have also had contemporary costumes for a work taking place in the past.

Wait a minute! You mean, Mrs. Lovett didn't play a tuba?

Saw literally seconds of the London Streetcar and, yes, it was so loud and screechy and whose big Louis Vuitton bag was that? Blanche's? Stanley looked like he was a hairy-chested ginger.

I wonder if ScarJo should be added to the EGOT possibilities list. She's already won a Tony and has multiple Oscar noms, so I suspect eventually she'll win one (if only for supporting), which will only leave the Emmy and Grammy, which shouldn't be as hard as the first two. The TV academy is very intimidated by movie stars who do television, so probably wouldn't hesitate to give her one for something and she could toss off a spoken-word performance and get the Grammy.

R171, I would have thought they'd get it for writing the show,. Maybe not.

R176 - yes, 100% agreed. A far superior show despite the dusty embarrassment the production's become. Speaking of which, happy 75th birthday to Amra Faye Wright!

Scarjo has already recorded two albums and wants to do a musical (she was ALW’s first pick for his Sound of Music but filming commitments precluded her involvement). If she were to do a musical she could easily lock up at least another 2 or 3 more categories. If they ever do Chicago Live! Or Little Shop (on film or tv), she would walk away with the awards.

R166 "Chicago" does have some props; I remember the use of those feathers the girls surround Billy Flynn with during "All I Care About" that Bob Fosse had them use in the original production.

Dorothy Loudon pretty much underplayed very effectively in "Ballroom" and came off as very sweet; he had a fine director in MIchael Bennett to rein her in, until allowing her to let go in "50 Percent".

"she" had a fine director, that is

[quote]Since it’s been mentioned, is not Chicago the finer dramatic work than A Chorus Line and deserved the Pulitzer?

No, because ACL was taken from the stories of actual dancers. Plus in 1975, it was extremely daring to have a gay man do a monologue about being in a drag show ON BROADWAY. Down the street, "The Ritz" was using gay men for cheap jokes. ACL showed a gay man in a dramatic reality and paved the way for "Torch Song Trilogy" "La Cage Au Folles" etc.

[quote]Dorothy Loudon pretty much underplayed very effectively in "Ballroom" and came off as very sweet; he had a fine director in MIchael Bennett

I always suspected Loudon was really a man.

Chicago has Alvin and... Irving.

[quote]Chicago has Alvin and... Irving.

Used as a punchline.

R185, of course The Ritz was written by an out gay man, but don't let that fact stand in your way.

R186 Sandy, you were such a bitch!

"Bobby Lopez is actually the only double EGOT winner. And he has three Oscars and three Tonys. Given his track record, it's conceivable he could end up a triple EGOT."

"Do you think Lin Manuel is jealous of Lopez, who became an EGOT in just ten-years' time? Lin Manuel would've had his in 8 years, but lost for the MOANA song to Pasek & Paul's LA LA LAND song."

Which only goes to show how meaningless awards are.

"(she was ALW’s first pick for his Sound of Music)"

Ludicrous.

"Since it is never revived and very dated at this point, who knows."

There's not a thing dated about it.

[quote][R185], of course The Ritz was written by an out gay man, but don't let that fact stand in your way.

You missed the point. The Ritz used the gay lifestyle as a joke. A Chorus Line did not use Paul as a screaming queen. It was one of the first times that a gay man was presented as a human being.

There were other out gay men before McNally. Sondheim and Laurents just to name two.

What's that Rita Tushingham film with a sympathetic gay man? Wasn't that done on Broadway as a play?

[quote]What's that Rita Tushingham film with a sympathetic gay man? Wasn't that done on Broadway as a play?

"A Taste of Honey," done on Broadway in 1960 with Angela Lansbury and Joan Plowright. Originally produced in London in 1958.

R185, Chorus Line pointed the way by taking the techniques of downtown avant garde theater and used it in the service of unexpected material. Also, the terrible economy of the 70s and the worsening working conditions in industry made the story of those dancers desperate for work something that most Americans could relate to.

Chicago seemed irrelevant. It did not innovate in form and did not talk about life in America in the 70s. The revival worked because it seemed to talk about America in the late 90s with celebrity trials and the first glimmers of reality television.

[quote] "A Taste of Honey," done on Broadway in 1960 with Angela Lansbury and Joan Plowright. Originally produced in London in 1958.

I don't remember the specifics. Are the men in the play actually gay or just accused of being gay?

[quote]There's footage of Bel Geddes and Gazarra. I think I saw it as part of the Broadway: Golden Age doc.

Yes, and they are both surprisingly awful in that clip. They're both completely miscast in terms of type -- she's the wrong kind of pretty, he's the wrong kind of handsome, their voices are all wrong for the characters, and the acting is off as well. It proves that the actors who originate roles are not ALWAYS the best. Follow the link and see for yourself.

[quote]Have you ever seen the Broadway revival of Chicago? The play takes place in the 1920s but the costumes are contemporary.

The "costumes" are "contemporary" as a cost-saving measure, it has nothing to do with any concept of the production -- except that it's a replication of the Encores! production, which was done back in the days when those shows were much closer to concerts than staged productions with more or less full costuming and some set elements. A totally different situation from a production of STREETCAR with Ikea furniture and modern costuming "not necessarily" being set in the present day. That said, I realize the costumes and sets of the original CHICAGO did not look like the 1920s, so -- whatever!

I can understand and respect that (and can enjoy much of Hamlisch's music,) while also acknowledging that ACL is so of its time. It's not a period piece. It's a piece that was made in and relevant to the late 70s and early 80s and now feels very dated.

Chicago, while set in the 1920s is not a product of that time. And, frankly, doesn't feel overly "70s" in the schmaltzy way that ACL does. Let's just face it. Chicago aged incredibly well, ACL is a time capsule.

[quote]Chicago aged incredibly well, ACL is a time capsule.

But the Pulitzer is awarded based on current culture climate. In 1975, ACL didn't seem dated.

Is there anyone more mediocre than Bobby Lopez? Jesus H. Christ, let’s just say that to mention him and Richard Rodgers in the same breath is....a shanda!

[quote]Yes, and they are both surprisingly awful in that clip. They're both completely miscast in terms of type -- she's the wrong kind of pretty, he's the wrong kind of handsome, their voices are all wrong for the characters, and the acting is off as well.

I think that's why the Elizabeth Ashley revival was so well received. She brought the raw sexuality that Prim Bel Geddes couldn't manage. Personally, I think Cat On A Hot Tin Roof was ahead of its time. Audiences weren't ready for it in the 1950s.

When did Patty Hearts become an actresss? There was a touch of Roxie Hart to her trajectory.

*Hearst

I wanna hear more dish about Hal Prince and his predilection for cock. Somebody spill.

[quote]I wanna hear more dish about Hal Prince and his predilection for cock. Somebody spill.

Hal, Ed Koch and Roy Cohn did a threeway every night in Shubert Alley.

R197, watching the Streetcar unlike the other poster, it seems completely to be set today which is refreshing. THere are still references to 40s culture (bobby soxers and cherry cokes)., but since we know the play was written in the 40s, we accept that.

It is a weird production though. It is more staged than interpreted. And Anderson plays Blanche without any particular insight. It is like watching a brilliant actress doing a blocking runthrough without actually acting the role.

The set and costumes are strong. You really see the difference in the worlds of the Kowalski's home and Belle Reve in a way no other production I have seen do. I think the period costumes and set always look equally exotic. So in a period the apartment looks like a smaller version of what we think Belle Reve is and we do not see the taste difference in Blanche and Stella's clothing.

And Ben Foster is great. He is sexual without being sexy---which works so well.

[quote]And Anderson plays Blanche without any particular insight. It is like watching a brilliant actress doing a blocking runthrough without actually acting the role.

You should have seen Glenn Close do it in the 90s. Anderson is fucking Marian Seldes compared to our Glenn.

Wait, R207, are you saying Gillian is fake and affected in comparison to Glen?

[quote]Watching the Streetcar unlike the other poster, it seems completely to be set today which is refreshing. There are still references to 40s culture (bobby soxers and cherry cokes)., but since we know the play was written in the 40s, we accept that.

I have no freaking idea what in blazes you mean by that, and I imagine you don't either.

[quote]The set and costumes are strong. You really see the difference in the worlds of the Kowalski's home and Belle Reve in a way no other production I have seen do. I think the period costumes and set always look equally exotic. So in a period the apartment looks like a smaller version of what we think Belle Reve is and we do not see the taste difference in Blanche and Stella's clothing.

Again -- WTF? In the original movie of STREETCAR, you don't see a huge difference between the Kowalskis' apartment and what Belle Reve must have looked like? Incredible.

R209, I mean that I am not psychotic, so I know I am watching a play and can distinguish between script and production.

I have not seen the film in years, so I do not know. But the productions I have seen over the last few decades had sets that were shabbier than Belle Reve. The Kowalski home was only distinguished from Belle Reve by money--not taste. The furniture is usually a cheap deteriorated version of what you would see in Belle Reve. In this production, Blanche looks completely out of place in that home because she abhors clean lines and bright white surfaces. So it not only looks like Stella bought cheap furniture, but also furniture that is a break with her family's taste.

I echo r209's sentiment--WTF? Belle Reve is a plantation, with everything that implies, and the DuBois girls probably grew up in a mansion (think GWTW). Hence, Stanley's line to Stella: "I pulled you down off them columns and how you loved it..."

[quote]If there's a TV version of Gypsy that gets the Emmy, both Sondheim and Styne would become EGOTs. Craig Zadan might have made it happen. RIP.

There already WAS a TV version of "Gypsy." What makes you think a new one would fare any better with regard to Emmy wins?

R212 That Bette Midler GYPSY won an Emmy for Music Direction.

[quote]There already WAS a TV version of "Gypsy." What makes you think a new one would fare any better with regard to Emmy wins?

Because a new one might not have a leading lady who jumped out of your tv and started gnawing on your living room sofa.

Think again.

r213 Well, since Our Stevie wasn't the music director, that didn't help him in his Emmy quest, now did it?

Sondheim wouldn't be eligible for an Emmy (or Oscar for that matter) unless he wrote new material for a new TV/film production of Gypsy.

Lloyd Webber and Rice got theirs by being producers on the live JCS, so there's also that route.

I can’t believe you gays forgot me!

I went down a Karen Morrow rabbit hole for reasons ... and why didn't she have more of a career? Why wasn't she at least in one of the Follies revivals (other than Long Beach)?

I'm alive and doing well, bitches.

[Quote] why didn't she have more of a career?

....

She can tell a story. She can hold an audience.

Acting? Maybe not so much.

R191, whether it's dated or not, "Gamma Rays" is almost never done anymore. The movie certainly doesn't do it any favors.

Wow, I can't believe how fat Kim Criswell is in that "No Business Like Show Business" clip.

She's turned into Criswell the Hutt.

Kim Crisco

[quote]I wanna hear more dish about Hal Prince and his predilection for cock. Somebody spill.

Hal was a gentleman, and he would never have embarrassed Judy. He kept things VERY down low, and there were rarely stories about him. I mean, everyone knew he was screwing guys, but there were never any gossipy stories about his exploits.

[quote] Wow, I can't believe how fat Kim Criswell is in that "No Business Like Show Business" clip.

If Sondheim hadn't blacklisted me, I would be able to afford healthy food.

[quote] Hal was a gentleman, and he would never have embarrassed Judy. He kept things VERY down low, and there were rarely stories about him. I mean, everyone knew he was screwing guys, but there were never any gossipy stories about his exploits.

Yes and no. Tell me what happened to Larry Kert's career after he made his indiscreet late night comment at an after party for Prince's birthday.

He was ostracized both personally and professionally, r229.

R218, I think that would be a very acceptable way for him to do it. He's always somewhat involved in big productions so why not make him an executive producer. Regardless of what anyone says, I do think Sondheim cares about awards and perception. He certainly deserves to be an EGOT and I'm sure he knows it as well.

What did Kert say?

Speaking of 80s Brit divas... what’s with Claire Moore? Who is Bernard J. Taylor and why have umpteen scores of his received concept albums that never led to anything, most “starring” Claire Moore? The wiki page is, uh, something...

It's too bad Sondheim didn't win an Emmy for Evening Primrose.

R232, Sondheim tells the story often and even did it on camera. Kert was trying to get out of "Company' and allegedly said "who do I have to fuck to get out of this show" and Sondheim allegedly said "the same person you fucked to get into it." There are undoubtedly others but that's the most famous one.

So Sondheim's comment outed Prince, not Kert's.

[quote]What did Kert say?

Who's the teenage boy in the basement?

The answer to all of R58's questions is that Benedict Andrews is a terrible director, and Britain is most welcome to him. Be dears and keep him occupied there, will you?

r91 Julia looks good on camera, she should have been a hair model for Loreal or some other product.

When she first hit the scene it was all about that amazing head of hair and the fact the camera loved her. Unfortunately that kind of describes the young stars of the 80's in film and tv.

R235's story is well known and true but not the story i was referring to. Also It was Dean Jones who desperately wanted to get out of Company, not Kert, who very much wanted to be there.

So Dean Jones fucked Hal Prince?

Who didn't?

Madeline Kahn?

Oh please, R227! If he was such a gentleman, he would honor his wedding vows to his wife. That's the end of that.

If everyone knew he was screwing guys, as you allege, then he had already made a laughing stock of his wife and his marriage.

"Forsaking all others" includes chorus boys and ambitious young production assistants, too.

[quote]Oh, I see. So you have a production of STREETCAR with Ikea furniture and modern costuming, so it looks absolutely like it's supposed to be taking place in the present day......but it's actually still supposed to be taking place in the late 1940s or early '50s.

[quote]Got it.

[quote]You are obviously the perfect audience for one of those productions.

I'm feeling pretty smug right now because I wouldn't even be THIS stupid.

R245 will be even smugger to know that one of Benedict Andrews's great moments in Sydney was a production of Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf, set in a glass box with a black mirror finish floor. People kept falling over on the glass floor, which was of course raked, but other than that you might allow it. EXCEPT that he kept in Honey's line, when being shown around, "Oh, I do love these old houses!"

Moron.

Some posters here are so literal.

Oh, R247. What is YOUR position on non-traditional casting?

I am NOT fat and I resent the body-shaming.

Paula Stewart and Swen Swenson interview....unfortunately with Mr. Lowe.

R23 Aurora Spiderwoman (No The), is definitely not a young Portuguese boy. They were collecting during the 1980s.

R146 The Elizabeth Ashley 'Cat on a Hot Tin Roof' was recorded and can be seen at the New York Public Library. Depending on the day, you may need a valid reason to gain access (for research purposes, you're directing or starring in a version of it, etc). I've heard that they don't bother to find out if you're telling the truth though and sometimes don't even ask for a reason.

R182 Rumour has it that they're remaking 'Little Shop' and ScarJo is a contender for Audrey.

Scroll down for info on Ashley's 'Cat'. DL won't let me post the actual link, ugh!

Answering a question from two threads ago, someone wanted to know where the cover image came from on this 1964 studio recording of KISMET. I just purchased the CD, and in the liner notes it says "Photo from the London production." It's a fun recording. As someone mentioned, the strings get a bit syrupy in a few songs, but Robert Merrill is quite spirited (more than any other opera singer I've heard who tackles this role) and Regina Resnik is a hoot as Lalume. I still love the original Broadway cast recording the best, though.

Prince was known to be having a long term affair with one of the actors who played Che...That actor has talked about it publicly...

r254

who was that?

R254 Dish! Also, can someone tell the story about Dean Jones or Larry Kert? And why did Prince never come out? Did he have some sort of arrangement with his wife or was she oblivious?

r254 Was it John Herrera?

I bet Prince had a ding dong with the very handsome Gary Bond, who replaced David Essex in Evita in London. Gary ended up in a long term relationship with EJ Alexander, an American who created the masks for Prince’s production of Pacific Overtures.

I was flipping the channel and Ed was just introducing this number. It's on Youtube. Can't believe I hadn't seen it before. Wow!

I know "Aurora Spiderwoman" gets a lot of hate on here, but I'm fine with them. I kind of like that they haven't just dumped everything they have, but instead they almost curate their releases, often very well timed to current news or relevance of the performers or artists involved. Personally, I enjoy the surprise of logging into YT and seeing that they've uploaded yet another rare and unexpected bootleg. Also, the quality of many is such that they're best enjoyed in these little excerpts rather than as whole shows.

Highlights of Forever Plaid 30th Plaidiversary Reunion Special

R253, thanks! That's a really great photo. And I agree that's an excellent recording of KISMET overall. When it comes to opera singers in the leads of this show, Merrill is miles better than Sam Ramey, and Resnik is indeed great fun as Lalume. I especially enjoy her fearless singing over her register break!

I'm kinda surprised more of y'all don't know who Aurora Spiderwoman is, but anyway, it was great that he uploaded a high quality color version of the 1964 TV version of THE FANTASTICKS with Susan Watson, John Davidson, Ricard Montalban, Bert Lahr, and Stanley Holloway. Real quality stuff.

R259 that was great. Thanks!

Tony Awards 1988: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Into The Fire

(excuse the Japanee subtitles, it's still a great number)

Nobody does Lalume Like I did.

So. Robert LuPone. What's his deal? Do he and Patti get along? I don't recall seeing them together ever. They work in the same profession, though Patti is obviously the much bigger star.

But Robert got murdered by Marian Colby

I have heard for years that Patti and Robert LuPone are estranged, though I don't believe I've ever heard or read either of them make any statement about the other.

R268 - Estranged, eh? I wonder what caused the rift between them. It's not like Patti holds a grudge.

Ahem.

Maybe they're like Barbra and Roslyn Kind. Rarely mention each other,

Patti screams his name during the Les Mouche recording: ROBERT LuPONE! ROBERT!

I have a tape of her Shoulda Woulda Coulda concert and she introducies him in the audience: "My brother Bobby! Stand up Bobby!"

BTW, why is nobody posting?

Is Robert LuP gay or straight. You would assume that any man growing up with Patti would have to be gay (I think her son is straight and fairly untalented).

Look at young (and cute) Mandy during Sunday in the Park days.

Mandy will no doubt play Lazar Wolf in the Fiddler film remake.

Baz Bamigboye just tweeted that Hello, Dolly! in London’s glittering West End has been pushed to 2022. Imelda Staunton is shooting S5 of The Crown next year.

More Walking Happy...

[quote]They're both completely miscast in terms of type -- she's the wrong kind of pretty, he's the wrong kind of handsome, their voices are all wrong for the characters, and the acting is off as well.

Amazing that you were able to be so perceptive and make a judgment of the whole thing based on one grainy black and white kinescope clip!

[quote]Amazing that you were able to be so perceptive and make a judgment of the whole thing based on one grainy black and white kinescope clip!

First of all, the audio and video are very clear in the clip. And how much of a performance do you have to see to know that the actors are miscast? If you watched that clip and think Bel Geddes and Gazzara are NOT miscast as Maggie and Brick, then you have a very different conception of the characters than I do.

Good ol' Irra....

Interesting that you would judge the CAT performances from a grainy video and not acknowledge that most of those who actually saw them in person thought they were swell.

Well, this thread ground to a halt. Has it become paywalled? Surely more than two theatre nerds can afford the $1.50.

I wouldn't know whether it's paywalled because I pay my $1.50.

Live reading of SORDID LIVES is this Sunday on YouTube. 8:00pm Eastern/5:00pm Pacific

Benefiting 23 non-profit live theater companies from across the country.

Cast: Newell Alexander, Bonnie Bedelia, Beau Bridges, Emerson Collins, Dale Dickey, David Cowgill, Beth Grant, Debby Holiday, Leslie Jordan, Caroline Rhea, Del Shores, and Ann Walker.

Ethel & Dick...

Gypsy & Ethel...

June & Dinah...

Scott Holmes mentioned The Rink just now-he described Chita as “the ultimate professional” and Liza simply as “trouble.”

Gypsy Rose Lee had a talk show??? That's such a head trip watching her interview Ethel. I like her... spirit. She has that "fun Aunt" vibe that probably served her well in burlesque. It's so easy to forget she and June were real people.

Gypsy demonstrates...

I remember Gypsy's talk show ... I grew up in the Bay Area and it was produced in San Francisco by the ABC affiliate (KGO) and I guess syndicated? I'm not sure how widespread its distribution was, but it was on in SF every weekday.

[quote]Scott Holmes mentioned The Rink just now-he described Chita as “the ultimate professional” and Liza simply as “trouble.”

Sshcott Holmessh? Waszh he my sshecond husshband???

We got it in Denver, r291.

Even in Denver!

That Gypsy Rose Lee-Merman interview is so fascinating, starting with the fact that "Let Me Entertain You" is the music for the opening credits. Also, I had vaguely remembered from seeing Gypsy on HOLLYWOOD SQUARES, when I was a child, that she seemed to have a very slight speech impediment involving her esses, and this confirms it. But she's so charming and funny.

Gypsy & Judy...

More Gypsy and Judy...

I liked All Shook Up. I was comped, but still...

Remember when we could musicals where racism was sweetly charming and something love (and a good song) could overcome?

Now we get A Strange Loop.

r296 Sad that they'd both be dead by the end of the decade.

[quote]Remember when we could musicals

No. No, I don't remember that.

"Chita-A Legendary Celebration" streaming shortly (8PM EDT)

I think Gypsy's show only went off when she came down with cancer, which was very sudden.

Is this the longest a paywall has been up? This place (not just this thread) has been pretty dead.

No, R304. Previous theater threads have remained fairly dormant once the paywall goes up. This may be the longest a theater thread has gone without discussing "Follies," however.

Perhaps we should discuss Fillies, the new musical version of Equus

Or Fallus, the new.....oh, never mind.

They're dillies! They're dollies! The fillies from the follies!

And now for a lovely respite from...all the crap.

Gypsy's talk show also played Monday through Friday in NYC.

You know what we need? Some Benay...

I remember seeing Gypsy's talk show in Boston when I was a kid, so I assume it was available in quite a few markets.

Quick Change Artist...

R320 Also in Chicago.

I can't wait to see what r320 writes!

The Gypsy Rose Lee Show was carried on 26 stations, according to Broadcasting magazine in 1968.

Noel & Gertie...

[quote]Noel & Gertie...

Those Were the Happy Times!

I had no idea there was that Tonight at 8:30 scene in STAR!, just the musical numbers.

Just watched the most recent version of The King and I on PBS.

What schlock! Fun but not Shakespeare. Why is this shit considered a classic?

Seriously?

"Why is this shit considered a classic?"

Well, it's no female 'Company."

Fuck you, r320.

Even though I'm a child of the 80s and 90s, I "grew up" with the King & I film. The family had it on VHS and I loved it. Perhaps because my parents loved it, but I recall being pretty enamoured with the film and, even as a child, although I couldn't articulate it, I certainly 'got' the incredible chemistry between Gertrude and Yul. I was surprised to find that I found the LCT production so... uninspiring and even dull despite, of course, the beautiful score. Perhaps I need to give the PBS airing a chance. FWIW, I've had mixed results with Bartlet S's LCT revivals. I ADORED his South Pacific. His My Fair Lady (yes, with Benanti) fell completely flat for me.

Fuck you, r324.

Oh, snap! Sorry about that Debs and Marni! I need some coffee!!

The King & I is the best R&H film. Worst is a 3-way tie between Carousel, South Pacific and the State Fair remake.

I would hardly lump the awful "State Fair" remake in with the movie versions of "Carousel" and "South Pacific."

Suzuki Sunday...

R324, why do I find your appreciation for the chemistry between Gertrude and Yul based on...what? The one duet they share on the OCR, which is mostly her singing?

When Marin Mazzie took over as Anna in that Sher "King And I", the production finally clicked for me. And she remains the best stage Anna I've yet to see.

The King and I is a nice show but it epitomizes what Broadway really is—-a place for a few hours of entertainment.

Sure, they pretend there’s some big message (usually white person saves the colored heathens of the world) , but it’s just escapism.

Let’s stop pretending Bway has any major effect on the world except providing some hummable tunes

[quote]I would hardly lump the awful "State Fair" remake in with the movie versions of "Carousel" and "South Pacific."

I would. I think the films of CAROUSEL and SOUTH PACIFIC are both terrible in their own way(s). The huge flaws and incredible weirdness of SOUTH PACIFIC are too obvious to mention (the use of those horrendous color filters, the idiotic switching of the order of the first two scenes, the lead-footed direction, the dubbing of Juanita Hall's singing, and so on), but CAROUSEL is also really bad in more subtle ways.

[quote]When Marin Mazzie took over as Anna in that Sher "King And I", the production finally clicked for me. And she remains the best stage Anna I've yet to see.

Agreed, she was superb in the role.

[quote]Let’s stop pretending Bway has any major effect on the world except providing some hummable tunes

It's probably no longer true, but Broadway was once at or near the center of culture for the U.S. and even, to a lesser extent, the world. Shows like SHOW BOAT, WEST SIDE STORY, and yes, THE KING AND I did have a major effect on the world in that sense, and that continues to resonate. R332, you seem to have no knowledge of cultural history whatsoever.

Yes L, Show Boat, West Side Story, etc, really made society think and become less racist.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

R334, those shows DID make lots of people think. No one said they caused society to become less racist. Straw man arguments are the refuge of complete idiots like yourself who don't have the intelligence to argue the point(s) that are actually under discussion.

[quote] CAROUSEL is also really bad in more subtle ways.

And also in a huge way - the Carousel film gives everything away within the first five minutes.

[quote]I would. I think the films of CAROUSEL and SOUTH PACIFIC are both terrible in their own way(s)

And you are entitled to your opinion, R333. Not everyone shares it.

Oh, lighten up peoples. Let's momentarily escape with a little coup de théâtre....

[R233]: The career of Bernard J. Taylor has for me always been an anomaly. I was quite taken with his concept album of the musical “Wuthering Heights.” Then, a few years later, I discovered a record store in San Francisco, called Stars, which had a number of import show CD’s, including a number of musicals by Taylor that I never heard of. I bought a couple, then, on a repeat visit maybe a year later, bought a couple more.

None was as good as “Wuthering Heights;” they were all pretty unmemorable. “Pride and Prejudice,” “Much Ado,” “Success,” even “Nosferatu.” (It seems no one will ever write a great vampire musical.)

According to Wikipedia, Taylor now lives in San Antonio, and several of his shows have been produced in the midwest. But, despite his output, I’ve never heard of any of his shows being done in New York. (They all seem like posters from Max Bialystock’s office...)

And Stars closed decades ago. Can’t even find mention of it online.

Gertie had been dead for three years by the time the movie of The King and I was made. It was Deborah Kerr who had Yul under her hoop skirts munching on her muff (at least, if she was following Gertie's show tradition).

Both Carousel and South Pacific were big budget studio films, and they look it. Separated from Josh Logan's big mistake with the filters, the movie of SP is quite beautiful. In both cases, the money is on the screen. Neither is anywhere near the level of Oklahoma! and certainly not The King and I, but they also aren't like the cheap State Fair, which looks cheap in addition to its many other faults.

Pam, you ended up in the STARLETS*STARLETS*STARLETS thread...

The last ten minutes or so of the Carousel movie are the best part for me. Gordon MacRae’s heartbreaking reprise of “If I Loved You” (the best it’s ever been sung) and the graduation scene. What REALLY doesn’t work are the contented smiles of joy on the faces of Julie and her daughter as Mom extols the joys of domestic abuse. I cringe every time I watch it.

[quote]The Carousel film gives everything away within the first five minutes.

R336, ha! That's not completely true -- we see that Billy is dead in the first scene, but we don't know how it happened. But yes, many people would say that prologue in heaven (or purgatory) was a big mistake in the movie. And one thing it DOES give away is that Billy and Julie's child turned out to be a girl, so when he sings "My boy Bill....," we already know that's not what happened.....

[quote]The last ten minutes or so of the Carousel movie are the best part for me. Gordon MacRae’s heartbreaking reprise of “If I Loved You” (the best it’s ever been sung) and the graduation scene.

Agreed 100 percent. If you only watched those 10 minutes of the movie, you might think it's one of the best-ever film adaptations of a Broadway musical. Sad that there's so much wrong with it, and I think almost all of that is the fault of the director.

R337, of course I'm aware that not "everybody" shares my opinion, but I certainly do have the impression that the movie of SOUTH PACIFIC, although very popular in its initial release, is today generally considered to be practically an abortion. If you disagree, fine, but though I haven't taken a poll, I would say yours is the opinion that's shared by few others.

I think those damned filters just spoil what IS good in the film of SP. I think Mitzi Gaynor is perfectly fine, as are Ray Walston and Juanita Hall (though they should not have been dubbed--she sounds fine in FDS, filmed a few years later). It seems silly to have cast Brazzi and Kerr--neither was big enough box office to warrant casting those roles with actors who had to be dubbed.

[quote]f course I'm aware that not "everybody" shares my opinion, but I certainly do have the impression that the movie of SOUTH PACIFIC, although very popular in its initial release, is today generally considered to be practically an abortion. If you disagree, fine, but though I haven't taken a poll, I would say yours is the opinion that's shared by few others.

Opinions aren't a fucking popularity contest, R344, whatever you may think. Furthermore, I never gave you my opinion of "South Pacific," which I agree has many flaws. I was simply objecting to the lumping together of "South Pacific" and "Carousel," both of which have many fine moments, with the lame and cheap-ass remake of "State Fair."

King and I made people think so much about race that Hollywood Rita Moreno played an Asian woman...

[quote]I was simply objecting to the lumping together of "South Pacific" and "Carousel," both of which have many fine moments, with the lame and cheap-ass remake of "State Fair."

In my opinion, the movie of CAROUSEL has several fine moments in between all the ineptitude, but SOUTH PACIFIC -- once past the beautiful main title sequence -- has hardly any fine moments. Almost every moment in it that might have been wonderful is ruined in one way or another by those horrendous color filters and/or bad dubbing and/or terrible direction. I get what you are saying, and I agree that the STATE FAIR remake is a terribly cheap looking movie. But, in a way, I would say that movie is actually less of a disappointment than CAROUSEL or SOUTH PACIFIC, because the material of STATE FAIR is nowhere near as good to begin with, whereas the other two could have been classic movie musicals if they were well done.

Filters removed...

Bali Ha'i filters removed

Now about LucyMAME without the Vaseline on the lens?

The....HORROR!!!!

Lucy without the vaseline.

The film of South Pacific was originally planned for both Ezio Pinza and Mary to star together, but Pinza died suddenly of a stroke in May ‘57, only three months before filming was scheduled. R&H didn’t feel MARY could carry it without Pinza, so they offered it to Doris Day, who stupidly turned it down (or Martin Melcher did, on her behalf). Mitzi Gaynor tested twice & got it over Liz Taylor. Debecque was offered to several actors (including Charles Boyer, Vittorio De Sica and Fernando Lamas) who all turned it down. Rossano Brazil was a last ditch choice.

I adore Mary, but doubt she was seriously considered, given her age. Plus, the camera was never fond of her, even in her youth. Liz would have been WAY too beautiful, and not at all convincing as a naive hayseed. I'd have lobbied for Doris, who could have sung the hell out of those songs. And could easily pass for corn-fed and innocent.

But . . . filters or not, didn't SP make a buttload of $$?

"South Pacific" was one of the top-grossing movies of 1958 and the most successful Rodgers and Hammerstein movie adaptation until "The Sound of Music" was released seven years later.

"South Pacific" was the top-grossing movie of 1958, followed by "Auntie Mame" and "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof."

I think Broadway needs a revival of ANNIE. Now.

Nah, we're good, R358. I'd rather have a revival of Dorothy Loudon.

But with a gender-reversed cast R358. Boy's orphanage, Mister Hannigan, Chickie, Louie St. Regis, Mama Warbucks, etc.

Will Annie be a “trans Orphan of color”?

Sandy will be played by trans-species penguin.

Dorothy Loudon is the old Ann Harada.

One half of Bway fans loves absolutely everything she does; the other half has no idea who she is.

So if the Metropolitan Opera fall season is canceled maybe ALW can rent the theatre and put The Phantom of the Opera in there for 20 weeks or so with a socially distanced audience?

R364 - no.

I know very well who Dorothy Loudon is/was. I just can't stand her. She was an unrepentant ham who stomped all over almost everything she touched.

I was still in middle school when Dorothy Loudon passed, but I fucking love her. But that's also probably because I only know her from YouTube. I get the impression she's best experienced in small doses?

Saw Loudon in “Annie.” She was wonderful.

Except for “Oklahoma,” the incomparable Alfred Newman was music director on all the major R&H movies, won for “King and I,” and was nominated for the 1945 “State Fair,” “South Pacific” and “Flower Drum Song.” (In his career, he won a total of 45 nominations, with 9 wins.)

His underscore for “South Pacific” is superlative, weaving Rodgers’ tunes in with his own melodies, along with ethereal choral work from the great Ken Darby, creating a kind of spirit of the tropics, permeating the setting and characters, always influencing them. (Listen to his haunting cue, “Liat,” with his own composition mixed in with bits of Rodgers.) The show has nothing like it. It’s really a shame that the complete music tracks have never been released commercially.

I was so entranced by the locations and Newman’s music that I always wanted to live on Kaua’i where it was filmed. And I did.

Though I love all of Newman’s work on these films, and on “Camelot,” for which he won his final Oscar, “South Pacific” will always be my favorite. Sometimes a movie just appears in your life at the right time for you to just take it to heart.

R368 - I love your passion and your spirit.

[quote]The film of South Pacific was originally planned for both Ezio Pinza and Mary to star together, but Pinza died suddenly of a stroke in May ‘57, only three months before filming was scheduled.

I have NEVER heard or read that anywhere, and it certainly doesn't sound possible that either Pinza or Martin would have been cast in the film, given their ages at the time. (And I know Pinza's character is supposed to be older, but not THAT old.) What is your source for this "information?"

Perhaps it should be called TRANNIE instead.

"We Got Trannie!"

most ridiculous musical ever?

The worst musical I ever saw was a preview of “Via Galactica” in the fall of 1972. Terrible mishmash about inhabitants on other planets. To simulate different gravity, there were trampolines on floor level, with the actors jumping back and forth on them. Galt McDermot’s music was unmemorable. Leads Raul Julia and Virginia Vestoff had minimal chemistry. Keene Curtis, after winning the Tony for his work in “The Rothschilds,” played a robot, his head sticking out of a metal box with blinker lights, lowered from the heights of the proscenium.

The only decent moment was the visual at the very beginning, when the lights came up on a curtain made of strings of ping pong balls, with a film of endless stars projected on it, a stunning effect. Then a hapless actress was lowered from the ceiling in the midst of this, singing how we’re all off on the “Via Galactica.” And all you could think about was her safety.

The house was only half full, and emptied out even more at intermission. So I transferred down to a more choice seat in the orchestra. But, during the curtain call, not only was there a lot of booing, but those in the audience who were left were actually balling up their playbills and throwing them at the poor actors. I’ve never seen that before or since.

It was McDermot’s second big flop, only 5 weeks after his infamous “Dude.” And, despite some later success with “Two Gentlemen of Verona,” his career never really recovered.

Sounds like the cast should've dragged Galt out on stage during curtain call. "Here! Hit this!"

I always thought the film of South Pacific was pretty terrible seeing on TV until I saw it on a very large curved cinerama screen in a Todd AO print. It was very entertaining with that old glorious stereo sound but I hated the tint colors and always will. Though it works extremely well in one scene where I believe it's a hazy golden color and one of the servants tells Nellie her car is there as she's gazing at Emile and as soon as she realizes it the tint instantly disappears.

I also hate they cut I'm gonna Wash That Man Right out of my Hair. It makes no sense. What the film was too long so they cut one minute out of a 3 hour movie? I know he's not beloved on DL but I find John Kerr so damn cute. Especially in that small white bathing suit. He also refused to play the Nazi Charles Lindbergh in Wilder's film of his life so you get a rapidly aging tired looking Stewart playing a young vibrant unrelenting aviation hero.

[quote]I always thought the film of South Pacific was pretty terrible seeing on TV until I saw it on a very large curved cinerama screen in a Todd AO print. It was very entertaining with that old glorious stereo sound but I hated the tint colors and always will. Though it works extremely well in one scene where I believe it's a hazy golden color and one of the servants tells Nellie her car is there as she's gazing at Emile and as soon as she realizes it the tint instantly disappears.

I might agree with you that the one moment when the tint suddenly disappears as Nellie is brought back to reality by the announcement that her jeep has arrived is effective, but it's certainly not worth it to have the entire "Twin Soliloquies/Some Enchanted Evening" sequence in that awful, over-saturated golden tint just for that one, brief moment.

Many years ago, I saw SOUTH PACIFIC at the Eighth Street Playhouse in NYC. There were a bunch of NYU students in the audience, because the Tisch school was then doing a production of the show. Just before "A Cockeyed Optimist," when Mitzi Gaynor as Nellie said "Just look at that yellow sun!" and the whole screen suddenly turned yellow, some of the kids really lost it, and I didn't blame them. Incredible that such a stupid mistake was made, whether by the director or the cinematographer or whoever, and that no one stopped them (although they supposedly tried to, but not until it was too late).

The Sun will come out Tomorrow...

It's not that surprising. Listen to early stereo records. It was all about exploiting the "new" format (of course, color wasn't all that new but it was becoming widespread - all the more reason to show the BLUEST water, the REDDEST heat etc.).

[quote]I also hate they cut I'm gonna Wash That Man Right out of my Hair. It makes no sense.

Here it is with the complete audio track. Supposedly Oscar Hammerstein felt the number wasn't working as well as it had on stage and that's why parts of it were cut. Apparently seeing someone wash her hair in a movie lacked that novelty of someone doing it on stage.

I thought it was because those people at Prell wouldn't cough up the product placement money.

My Grandma Morris thought the tints were "just beautiful." I think a lot of the people at the time did too. So it might have been an aesthetic flaw, but not a commercial one.

As a kid watching SP on VHS, when the tinting started, I thought there was something wrong with my eyes.

I don't have a copy of the Richard Rodgers autobiography "Musical Stages" handy, but I recall that he wrote that when it came time to cast the movie of SOUTH PACIFIC that Pinza was dead and Mary Martin was "too old." I remember thinking that was a shitty thing for him to say. Mary Martin made a lot of money for R&H.

And yet, only a year later, she was playing a young novitiate for them. Miss Martin was ageless.

[quote]I don't have a copy of the Richard Rodgers autobiography "Musical Stages" handy, but I recall that he wrote that when it came time to cast the movie of SOUTH PACIFIC that Pinza was dead and Mary Martin was "too old."

I wonder what he would have thought about Miss Glenn Close as Nellie.

Someone has been very brave and taped the show. Poor quality but you get the idea of the show. It wasn’t me.

Reno Sweeney ad

Cute ad. Funny that they don't even mention Patti by name.

Because they were trying to sell tickets, not scare people away.

Is r387 a different recording to the one that was posted and taken down after a few hours?

The film of South Pacific played four years in its first run London engagement at the Dominion theater in London even longer than the film of SOM which played 3. It was a very popular film despite the colors. And wasn't the film itself tinted? It couldn't have been shot that way(with filters) as the colors change and as noted the color disappears in the middle of a scene not at a cut. Were the colors put on the original camera negative so that there was never any film that existed without them?

Logan says he wanted to remove the tints before the film opened but Hammerstein said it was too late because the film's previews(I assume for the press and industry) were already set up. But how would he have removed them if there was no original untinted negative? I've never understood exactly why it was never rectified. Unless at the time people actually liked them and you don't mess with success.

Look at "A Star Is Born." Once it was "done," it was done...

Yes. There is an interview with David Lean discussing Omar Shariff's amazing entrance in Lawrence. He wanted to do the entire entrance without a cut but he lost his nerve thinking it would bore people. So he cut to a reaction shot of O'Toole and then back to Shariff. At the premiere as soon as the scene started he felt the entire audience galvanized and realized it would have held through the entire entrance with no cuts. The interviewer then asked why didn't you change it back to your original conception and Lean enigmatically replied you can't do that.

By the time of the premier, are all the copy prints made? That might explain it. This kind of stuff usually comes down to $$$.

R391 [Is [R387] a different recording to the one that was posted and taken down after a few hours?] No, the one previously posted was the Broadway version---the new one at R387 is from London.

[quote]And yet, only a year later, she was playing a young novitiate for them. Miss Martin was ageless.

Of course, most people think there's a huge difference between an older actor playing a young role on stage as compared to film. Nellie Forbush is supposed to be a very young woman -- I would say very early 20s -- plus a big part of the plot of SOUTH PACIFIC is that Emile is so much older than she is. I'm sure Martin would have been the first to admit that, at 45, she was way too old to play the part on screen. Also, I agree she was "ageless" in terms of her youthful energy as a performer, but not in terms of actual appearance. I remember that when a European friend of mine saw the video of Martin in PETER PAN for the first time, not having grown up with it, his first reaction was: "Why is that old woman playing a young boy?"

R392, I too have never fully understood exactly how the coloring of those scenes in SOUTH PACIFIC was achieved. I once read that it was done with color filters being passed over the lens during filming, which would explain why they couldn't be removed afterwards. But, at different points in the film, the tints appear and disappear in different ways. There is that one moment after "Some Enchanted Evening" where the golden hue suddenly disappears in a split second, so that would argue against it having been done with a filter in front of the lens. Also, it's not just tinting that happens in those scenes -- in some of them, there is also a blurring of the image at the edges of a frame, I guess to increase the dreamlike quality. I have read that supposedly Hammerstein, Rodgers, AND Logan decided while filming was still going on that the tinting was a mistake and asked for it to be taken out, but were told by Leon Shamroy the DP that it couldn't be done. Is it conceivable that the original camera negative was tinted in those sections? Hard to believe, but maybe that's what they did. Who knows?

Re the South Pacific film tints, Josh Logan claimed (in one of his books) that the original intent was for the colors to be very subtle. Twentieth Century Fox wanted them to be bright, and said let them fiddle with them and they can always change them back. When Logan saw what they'd done, how saturated they were, he was horrified, but it was too close to the premiere to fix them. Despite Fox's promises, they never went back and changed them. As has already been proved, the technology to do it, to remove them completely, exists. But who wants to put up the money to do it?

No, Martin & Pinza were definitely "it" as far as R&H were concerned. Try to imagine the hype Nathan Lane and Matthew Broderick had when The Producers opened on Broadway.It would have been unthinkable to film it without them. It was like that, but more, for Martin & Pinza. There was no problem re age, look at all the middle-aged actresses who were playing "young women" on film. Lucille Ball was playing 33 year old Lucy Ricardo on TV.

BUT - when Pinza suddenly died, it was huge. R&H knew that Mary only worked Nellie at that point as part of that magical stage package, that she wouldn't work on screen with anyone else. Mary knew that as well, and was gracious about the turn of events (and probably grateful for any number of reasons, especially that she really grieved Pinza's sudden passing).

R&H knew Doris was the perfect choice, but her greedy husband fucked it up for her. That left Mitzi and Liz. Liz bombed her first auditions because of nerves regarding the singing. (I don't know why they didn't just get Marni Nixon). Apparently her acting was pretty good. Liz at that point was still able to play the young, naive girl that she had played in several early films. Anyway, that just left Mitzi. Meanwhile, they were having trouble finding a Debecque, so they wanted to take something off their plate and signed her. They could have done much worse, in fact. Mitzi, at least, was a seasoned musical performer.

I can imagine MGM doing South Pacific in 1958 with, say, Debbie Reynolds (then 26) and Ricardo Montalban (then 38) or Fernando Lamas (then 42).

The Carousel movie really isn't too good till the end. Also, it's only with the passing years that people don't remember that MacRae and Jones were not top-tier stars at that time. For them to be playing the young'uns of Oklahoma! as singer-actors was one thing; the darker, deeper Carousel was another, and a Sinatra-Garland (she was too old by then, but in terms of wattage) or similar pairing would've been several steps up and matched the CinemaScope 55 ballyhoo. MacRae was reliable support for the Warner Brothers leading ladies in A musicals, and leading man in fairly light B pictures. To suddenly go from that to Curly and Billy was a big leap. His screen career basically ended after Carousel, he did only one more studio film (The Best Things In Life Are Free) and then a couple of films decades later.

The Twentieth-Century-Foxiness of both Carousel and The King and I films always gets me. For all their supposed lavishness, they're just on the backlot most of the time, shooting their pages for the day. Carousel, at least, is American. When I watch King and I, I often think "who knew Siam was decorated like Fox in the 50s?" The two lead performances are irreplaceable, however, and they save the movie.

Though both Oklahoma! and South Pacific have their share of in-studio shots to go with the ample location footage, somehow they manage to avoid that backlot claustrophobia.

[quote]No, Martin & Pinza were definitely "it" as far as R&H were concerned. Try to imagine the hype Nathan Lane and Matthew Broderick had when The Producers opened on Broadway.It would have been unthinkable to film it without them. It was like that, but more, for Martin & Pinza. There was no problem re age, look at all the middle-aged actresses who were playing "young women" on film. Lucille Ball was playing 33 year old Lucy Ricardo on TV.

Sorry, I simply don't believe that Martin and Pinza were ever seriously considered for the movie. Pinza would have been 64 at the time of the filming, and that's way older than the character is supposed to be. Remember that, aside from everything else, he has two kids who look like they're under age 10. And as I said, Martin at 45 would have looked ridiculous as a young woman who cannot be older than 25 or so if the story is to make any sense. Plus, even when she was younger, Martin was not considered very photogenic, which is why her film career was minor. (TV was a different story, not necessary for people to be photogenic in the same way as for big-screen movies.) As for your comment about THE PRODUCERS, of course there have been many examples of Broadway shows that were such huge hits with their original stars that one might have thought those stars would HAVE to be signed for the movies, but they weren't. As for your comment about Lucille Ball in I LOVE LUCY, I would say it wasn't important for that character to seem especially young. And if you didn't think it looked realistic for a woman in her early 40s to have a baby, well, of course, that's what happened in real life.

[quote]I can imagine MGM doing South Pacific in 1958 with, say, Debbie Reynolds (then 26) and Ricardo Montalban (then 38) or Fernando Lamas (then 42).

They would have needed Marni Nixon on standby. Debbie wasn't much of a singer.

You people are wrong about Carousel. The entire movie is worth it for the dream ballet alone. Far superior to the ballet in Oklahoma it is one of the most shattering things I have ever seen in a musical film.

It begins in reality with Louise standing triumphantly on the spinning wheel of an overturned carriage with one arm stretched above her and her other arm stretched out at a right angle with her legs apart in a strong stance. After dancing on the beach we enter into her dream world of her joy of living, the fantasy of the dead father she never knew, and of a society that rejects her. It ends with her screaming out at the very end in complete humiliation and defeat because of circumstances beyond her control to everyone in her dream world 'I hate you. I hate you all!'

Then suddenly we come back to the real world and there she is again still on the spinning wheel but this time curled up in a fetal position weeping.

Pretty great.

Ya want Gordon MacRae? Ya want a ballet?

It's breathtaking how gorgeous Jacques d'Amboise was, in addition to how beautifully he danced. And Sheree North is also wonderful in that clip.

Debbie Reynolds could've absolutely sung the score of South Pacific, especially in 1958 with the MGM musical wizards to curb any of the bad vocal habits found in her later work, R402. Onstage, the role of Nellie Forbush lies entirely in Martin's belt range, with a range of about an octave and a third. The only time Reynolds was dubbed in films was as Helen Kane in Three Little Words (where they used Kane's own voice) and the partial dubbing in Singin' in the Rain. In the other 17 studio feature films where she had to sing, her own voice was used.

And for someone you consider "not much of a singer", Reynolds spent most of her performing life singing in musical endeavors, arguably to a degree where plenty of people would recognize her singing voice. There's her gold record for Tammy, her other charted hits including Aba Daba Honeymoon, her studio albums for multiple record companies (do you think they outsold Marni's greatest hits of Schonberg album, R402?) her Vegas schedule of two shows a night for about ten years, her concert career, her Broadway and touring theatre career entirely above the title in musical offerings...the woman sang a lot to audiences who paid to see and hear her.

Marni's most successful albums (the soundtracks of WSS, MFL, TKAI and Mulan) weren't sold on her name. In fact, her name isn't even on some of her most successful recordings. Reynolds' recordings were absolutely sold on her name and starpower. The world accepted her singing as one facet of her all-around talent.

Why you antediluvian queens here always want to lick Marni Nixon's pussy and kneel over the bowl to savor every sandy brick of her shit is beyond me. Is it because her classical training makes you feel highbrow, or highbrow adjacent? Here on DL she's discussed as if she were the empress of all music theatre singing, when she was really more or less a footnote, the answer to a trivia question, the biggest fish in a very small pond with Betty Wand, Jo Ann Greer, India Adams, Luann Hogan et al. Her best feature was her competence and skill which compensated for her homeliness and utter lack of starpower. Yes, everyone knows she played MFL at City Center for a few weeks, and some of the other roles she dubbed in tent tours and regional theatre. Yes, late in life she came back to Broadway in smaller roles in shows not built around her and still sounded good. She was a nice lady, usually, and she married well. If anything, one would say the classical and concert part of her career was far more acclaimed. She certainly seems more at home in the music of that world.

Debbie....you didn't have a sound.

Neither did Mitzi. Had Debbie had the hit with "Tammy" by the time they were casting "South Pacific"?

R404 - I loved EVERYTHING about that. TBH, I'm not a huge fan of 50s film musicals -- too many mothballs -- but that entire sequence was fantastic. Gordon MacRae's voice had such presence, that orchestra fucking rocked (reminds me of the swinging sound that Nelson Riddle got on all my dad's old Sinatra records) and the dance was just beautiful. I had no idea Charlotte D'Amboise's dad was a renowned dancer (sorry, I'm a philistine.)

I'd also never heard of Sheree North before -- hardly a household name these days, is she? But, man, she was a knockout. That lift and flip they do? Wow.

d'Amboise dressed like family.

Oh, wait, it turns out I DO know Sheree North. She was Blanche Elizabeth Deveraux's sister, Virginia Hollingsworth!

[quote]Were the colors put on the original camera negative so that there was never any film that existed without them?

No. Addressed several times above. It was Fox that went overboard with the tints, and Fox that said it was too close to the opening to change, but they could be changed later. And they never were. Someone made a version upthread and used rudimentary tools to remove the tint, and did a decent job. Fox, working with the original print, could easily remove the tints, but there is zero financial incentive to do so.

All of the songs in South Pacific would have played to Debbie Reynolds' strengths. If she weren't such a big movie star in the late 50s-early 60s, she probably would have done a stock engagement in it. And yes, Debbie's singing voice was quite recognizable by then. Tammy went into release in June, 1957, so yes, that huge song hit was well before South Pacific (which started filming in Aug prior to release a year later).

Prime Time est fini!

I expect Mitzi was cheaper than Debbie. Weren't R+H known for wanting the "show" to be the star in movie adaptations of their work?

How does one remove a tint exactly? Is the original negative tint free? Why was there never a print of this struck?

If they had waited a couple of decades, I would have been available.

I presume there hasn't been a tint free version because the original was beloved. Fans may complain about the tinting but are those fans the majority? Probably not.

So, the tints were done at the time of shooting. Originally, Logan was told he could do two sets of shooting - one with, one without. But after a couple of scenes had been shot like this, Fox told them to stop - and told them the tint could be removed in a lab after shooting. What they didn't mention was this process was expensive, and would take three months. Logan first saw a cut only ten days before previews were to start - so there wasn't time to remove the tint, and the head of Magna, who were co-producing with Fox, didn't want to spend any more money.

[Quote] Logan first saw a cut only ten days before previews were to start

Logan left the editing of the movie to someone else? Don't directors spend time in the editing room to ensure the cut is as they want it?

R420 According to the article I linked to, he was directing the stage version of Blue Denim whilst the edit was done.

[quote]Logan first saw a cut only ten days before previews were to start - so there wasn't time to remove the tint, and the head of Magna, who were co-producing with Fox, didn't want to spend any more money.

If Logan didn't demand to see what the tinted (or color-filtered) sequences would look like with those effects AS he was going along shooting the movie, then he was even more of an incompetent than I've always thought him to be.

Whatever the true story behind the tinted (or color-filtered) sequences, the fact that the movie was a huge box office success from the moment of its release very likely worked against any motivation on Fox's part to remove those effects after the fact, even if they still had the elements to do so. If any critical dissatisfaction with those effects had translated into poor box office and complaints from regular moviegoers, it might have been a different story.

Thank you, Bonnie at R417. We'll be in touch.

P.S. I recently re-watched a documentary on SOUTH PACIFIC -- the show and the movie -- that was made around the time of the Lincoln Center revival. It was hosted by Mitzi Gaynor, who's also a talking head in it. She says that Logan was in the grip of his manic depression during at least some of the filming, and at one point he said some unbelievably horrible things to her and Rossano Brazzi. So I guess, with that knowledge, we shouldn't be surprised that Logan apparently exercised no quality control over the tinted or color-filtered sequences. (Nor should we be surprised that his direction of the movie is so horrendous in general, as reflected in dozens of other terrible decisions.)

So was the movie possibly taken away from Logan? Who was the assistant director?

When "South Pacific" was first shown on TV, was it in black and white?

[quote]If Logan didn't demand to see what the tinted (or color-filtered) sequences would look like with those effects AS he was going along shooting the movie, then he was even more of an incompetent than I've always thought him to be.

You're right to say colour filters, not tinting, that was my mistake. He'd used a filter before in Picnic, and they did do a test when the filters were made. From the article it seems that the error was in the lab when they processed the film, Logan had left a note for the colouring to be kept down, which they seemed to ignore. So though the filters were applied whilst shooting was underway, the intensity was down to how the film was processed.

[quote]When "South Pacific" was first shown on TV, was it in black and white?

It wouldn't have been show on TV until sometime in the 1960s, so, no.

CAROUSEL sucks. The CAROUSEL movie sucks even more. "You'll Never Walk Alone" is unbelievably sappy. It draws a bright line through the theater going public. Those who warm to that nonsense. Those who rightly gag from it. Add to it the Star Keeper and wife abuse and it's all too much. Bleccchhh.

Josh Logan wrote that he did not want SOUTH PACIFIC to look in every frame like a picture postcard from Hawaii. And it should not. The setting is World War 2. I think the movie of CAROUSEL may have influenced his thinking. Every goddamned frame of that movie looks like a postcard from the Maine coast. During "June is Busting Out All Over" we have fisherman coming in from sea, we have young women working on the dock, and not a one of them has a hair out of place or a wrinkle in their costume and there is not a grease spot to be seen. The fucking number is grotesque. It is all as phony and Hollywood as it could be. And, tying it to SOUTH PACIFIC, every moment looks like a postcard from the Maine Travel Bureau. Worst of all, none of that is appropriate for the story. CAROUSEL is an enormous failure stylistically and directorially. If there is a filmable musical there, I would be surprised. The movie they made argues there there is not.

In the last 30 seconds of the movie, we jump from Louise's graduation on a sunny afternoon to the next shot when it is dusk and the sun is setting over the Atlantic. CAROUSEL is one vapid image after another. You must entirely shut down your brain to sit through a screening of this ridiculous movie. You cannot think and accept the movie CAROUSEL, too.

Well yeah, and then there’s the “can a man hit you, really hard, and you not feel it at all?” nonsense.

Well, smell you, r429. Aren't we just a little judgemental on a bright June morning?

Well, smell you, r429. Aren't we just a little judgemental on a bright June morning?

I've said before that I wish someone would write a really good bio of Josh Logan. Although now so many of those who really knew him are gone. What an extraordinary talented, flawed, conflicted guy he was.

[quote]You're right to say colour filters, not tinting, that was my mistake. He'd used a filter before in Picnic, and they did do a test when the filters were made. From the article it seems that the error was in the lab when they processed the film, Logan had left a note for the colouring to be kept down, which they seemed to ignore. So though the filters were applied whilst shooting was underway, the intensity was down to how the film was processed.

Thanks. I personally think the color filters would be a huge mistake even if the saturation were way less, and as I mentioned, the color filters are not the only problems with those scenes. In some scenes, the edges of the screen become blurry, presumably to stress the dreamlike unreality of the musical numbers. And in the "Bali-Hai" sequence, while the filters are changing color every 30 seconds or so, all of this smoke suddenly appears and starts to waft all over the scene and the actors. I guess it's supposed to be "island mist," but it looks more like smoke, and it looks ridiculous. Epic fail.

I don't know PICNIC very well. Where is a color filter used in that movie?

What am I, r409, chopped liver?

Why is no one here talking about race, injustice, gender equality and income parity. It is now the only thing we can talk about on Broadway, don't you know. Enough with the story telling -- GET REAL.

Hey, the Grease Sing A Long will be next Sunday. You know, where the Tonys were going to be presented. I'll watch just to get some higher ratings and the Theater community will still be throwing a hissy fit because CBS isn't televising an event that isn't taking place.

[quote]Well, smell you, [R429]. Aren't we just a little judgemental on a bright June morning?

It may be bright, but is it busting out all over?

I realize this is a slippery slope, and the "is it possible for someone to hit you..." dialogue in Carousel makes for uncomfortable viewing and certainly tricky for the actors playing the scene (when directors decide to keep it in). But the show does not come out in support of spousal abuse. First, there's the choice of the word "someone" instead of "a man," "a husband..." Julie of course answers that it is possible for "someone" to hit you "and not hurt at all." I think the book of Carousel recognizes that people stay in abusive relationships and overlook, make excuses for, or forgive their abuser and I think the use of "someone" opens the conversation up to any sort of abusive relationship, even though Julie is definitely referring to her relationship with Billy.

Moreover, when Billy slaps Louise's hand (which sparks the conversation between Louise and Julie), the Heavenly Friend lashes out at Billy and says, "Failure! You struck out blindly again. All you ever do to get out of a difficulty - hit someone you love. Failure!" It might not be how Hammerstein would write the scene, were he alive in 2020, but the scene between Louise and Julie doesn't exist in a vacuum either. It's also part of the show's humanism that a deeply flawed guy like Billy can find forgiveness.

No offense, but you sound like an apologist.

Agree with r439. There are no heroes in this show, just deeply flawed humans trying to do better. I wince for Julie when she says that, but don't hate her for it. Nor do I think that hers is the message the show wants to convey.

Geez, R429 (and, I'm guessing also R406), you need to calm down or take your meds. Your ranting is coming off a bit Matt-the-Loon-like.

Agree with R441. The best take I've seen on Julie was the wonderful Lincoln Center production in the 1990s where Sally Murphy played Julie somewhat like trailer trash. It wasn't the best sung Julie I've heard, but her portrayal was heartbreaking. I can see where traditional R&H devotees might not have cared for it--I know Barbara Cook hated it--but I found it very moving.

Broadway experts which one is better for producers, keep theaters closed until they can sell all the tickets or open with fewer sold seats? Big musicals need full houses, but what about smaller off-off(-off) houses?

Not really, R440. I stayed in an abusive relationship for 11 years because it was what I knew and it felt like I wasn't deserving of a better situation for myself. So I look at what Julie says and how she acts, and I recognize it as something very familiar to me, because I also made similar excuses for my partner. I think Carousel doesn't need to be cancelled because of its 1945 sensibility on how it depicts an abusive relationship or the fact that it does so. I can look at it and make my own judgments about it without it needing to be cleansed of any possible offense, because it's easier to just sit there and enjoy the pretty songs, and not be hurt or challenged by what it is saying. I think we know enough about Hammerstein to know he was not pro-spouse abuse and I think that is also justified in the text as I explained above.

R439, I agree. I've always felt that people wouldn't have so much of a problem with the Julie/Louise scene if Louise's question were retained ("But is it possible for someone to hit you...and not have it hurt at all?") but Julie's affirmative response was cut, and then Julie could just say her next line, which I seem to remember is something like "Go into the house, child." To me, that would indicate that the question is so complicated, Julie can't really answer it in black and white terms. OF COURSE it hurt terribly when Billy would hit Julie, so she shouldn't simply answer "Yes, it's possible....," when what she really means is something more along the lines of "It hurts terribly when someone whom you love hits you, and it's always very wrong for them to do so, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't love you." Because that's NOT what the audience understands when Julie simply says, "Yes, it's possible for someone to hit you -- hit you hard -- and not have it hurt at all."

Well by the film's success Logan did everything right. They got a huge hit out of it after the relatively disappointing box office returns of the big expensive Oklahoma. I have no doubt everyone was happy financially.

The film was rereleased again about 10 years later in '68 or'69 so it might not have been shown on TV until the early 70s. And it is still a beloved film. Martin Hart whose widescreen museum is worth searching out on the web recounting film's history of color and screen apertures is very entertaining. He loathes the Todd AO Sound of Music but enjoys the Todd AO South Pacific quite a bit. But maybe just because he's into Mitzi Gaynor. And no the late Mr Hart was not a gay man. She does look terrific throughout the film.

[quote]CAROUSEL sucks. The CAROUSEL movie sucks even more.

"Carousel" has one of the most gorgeous scores ever written for Broadway.

[quote]Martin Hart whose widescreen museum is worth searching out on the web recounting film's history of color and screen apertures is very entertaining. He loathes the Todd AO Sound of Music but enjoys the Todd AO South Pacific quite a bit.

That's....incredible.

[quote]Well by the film's success Logan did everything right.

Absolutely, because a film's box office success is ALWAYS indicative of its quality. That movie of GREASE is a true masterpiece. And MAMMA MIA! too.

I like Mitzi when she's just being....Mitzi. She's absolutely fine as Nellie but she's not...special. Mitzi's all about the pizzazz!

Someone asked for the Branagh The Winters Tale. Finally found it.

Act Two.

Has anyone got access to National Theatre's Medea w/ Helen McCrory?

I enjoyed McCrory as the evil witch on Penny Dreadful, and really liked the Pasolini 'Medea' with Maria Callas.

Talkin' with the Mitz.,..

I didn't say South Pacific was a quality film. But like Grease and Mama Mia it is a beloved film. I hate saying that but it's true. And honestly I'd rather sit through SP again(which I'll probably never do)than those two other films because at least there is that magnificent score beautifully conducted.

[quote]And honestly I'd rather sit through SP again(which I'll probably never do)than those two other films because at least there is that magnificent score beautifully conducted.

Well, I certainly agree with you on that point. Whatever the pluses and minuses of the original SP film, I'm so glad we finally got that video of the Lincoln Center Theater production with Kelli O' and Paulo, because in my opinion, its far superior to the '58 film and also to the TV version with Glenn Close. (The less said about that, the better.)

Instead of remaking Fiddler, I wish someone would hire Nicolas Hytner to direct a new Carousel movie. And not with Hugh Jackman as Billy.

How about the Carnegie Hall concert production with under-rehearsed Reba and Stokes, who slowed “This Nearly Was Mine” down to a crawl?

R446, I saw one actress deliver the line "Yes, it's possible for someone to hit you -- hit you hard -- and not have it hurt at all." with a real bitterness. It was as if she were angry at herself for not feeling the hurt.

Then she had a moment of horror, realizing that her daughter might be on the same path before sending Louise inside.

It was electrifying. Without changing the text it means something deeper and at odds with the usual view.

It also seemed the natural progression from the fatalism of "What's the Use of Wondering."

[quote]How about the Carnegie Hall concert production with under-rehearsed Reba and Stokes, who slowed “This Nearly Was Mine” down to a crawl?

I never miss an Alec Baldwin musical.

R434 From the article I linked to in R419

[quote]Logan did not really like Technicolor; he thought it made the sky too blue, the grass too green and flowers to look like cake decorations. He had persuaded James Wong Howe to use a rose tinted filter to soften the colours in the ‘Moonglow’ scene in Picnic. Shamroy was curious; “What’s this cocksucking idea you’ve got about colour?”

Sally Murphy has the range (at least how she is cast) from A to B. She gave the same performance in Encores "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn" (which has a fine score, but is similar in story to "Carousel") and in the recent "Linda Vista" playing another wife; the only difference is in the last one she didn't sing. That Lincoln Center "Carousel" had some wonderful dancing, scenery and Audra McDonald in a breakout role. Murphy was just adequate, Shirley Verrett disappointing (nothing Nellie has almost nothing to do besides her two big numbers) and Michael Haydn ending Act One with a very inadequate "Soliloquoy" to anyone who's ever seen or listened to John Raitt or Gordon MacRae's version of it; the producers and director must have known he could barely sing when they cut out "The Highest Judge of All", his only main solo in the second act.

But didn't he get great reviews?

I've written this before. When very young I saw John Cullum and Constance Towers in it with the most spectacular opening imaginable. It was probably the only time in my life in the theater when I was actually crying the end. Though I've seen the movie in parts I've never needed to see the musical again.

R454 - That was 9 minutes of PURE JOY. I have to admit, I'm not very familiar with Mitzi beyond an old VHS copy of South Pacific my parents would sometimes watch. She's such a hoot! She would make such a GREAT talk show guest -- a natural storyteller with a wicked sense of humor and willingness to spill the tea! Did she ever done one-woman shows ala Stritch's At Liberty?

Mitzi was still doing variety specials into the 1980s on CBS prime time which had good production values and got good ratings.

Mitzi is great fun. It's sad that back in the day TPTB didn't exploit her personality on screen.

She's great in "There's No Business Like Show Business" dancing with Donald O'Connor (and with Marilyn Monroe lazily singing "Lazy", too in one number while Mitzi and Donald knock themselves out hoofing).

There are some very good more in depth interviews with her on youtube. She is delightful. I like her honesty. 'My husband did not pass. He died.'

That Dorothy....

It's quite amazing how much Collins' voice had lowered by the 1977 "ladders" production.

I saw Mitzi's one-woman show ("Razzle-Dazzle: My Life Behind the Sequins") a few years back (well, 2011 to be specific) and she was fabulous. Mostly just told lots of stories and showed clips from her movies and TV specials, but she's incredibly charming and entertaining.

You're right, r442, r406 sounds exactly like Matt the Loon. He probably hates Marni because she was in "The Sound of Music," starring his bete noire, Julie Andrews.

Jack Cole...

[quote]Shamroy was curious; “What’s this cocksucking idea you’ve got about colour?”

Every idea Josh Logan had was a cocksucking idea. It's all that was on his mind 24/7.

I did not see the most recent revival of "Carousel"--the cast didn't excite (mainly Jessie Mueller as Julie) and I gather the choreography, especially for the sailors, was exciting. I remember the LC revival and, in addition to the opening and Audra, I was most taken by the ballet in the second act by Sir Kenneth McMillan, especially the pas de deux between Louise and the carnival boy--sexy and sublime.

Mitzi doin' the Johnson Rag...

Jon Marhsall Sharp was hot Carnival Boy in the Lincoln Center Carousel in '94. He went on to do a soap.

He sounds kind of insufferable in this interview from 1999.

I’ll admit the Lincoln Center Carousel wasn’t all that well-sung, but it was brilliantly conceived, acted and designed. It was the first production I ever saw that actually moved me. It actually made emotional and visceral sense. It’s all there in the text, I know, but all I'd ever seen previously were fusty, wooden Julies and fat, middle-aged Billys. This was a revelation.

The pity of it, of course, is that Hytner absolutely could have found actors every bit as good and sexy who could also sing well. New York isn’t London in terms of the MT casting pool.

[quote]The film was rereleased again about 10 years later in '68 or'69

'66. That's when I saw it. My mom took me because she loved it so much. I was 8 and invited a friend who insisted the island was "Valley High" not Bali H'ai.

Mitzi thanks Frank...

My mom still insists that Bloody Mary's name was Typhoid Mary. smh

What does Mitzi keep calling herself in some of those clips? A little Hungarian... something. I think it's a foodstuff.

In addition to the spousal abuse in Carousel, what about the taunting of Julie. Twice they sing "You'll Never Walk Alone" and yet she is walking alone. Nobody bothers to help her find another husband. Nobody helps her to raise Louise. When Carrie and Enoch go on vacation, they don't offer to take her. When Billy is shot, Nettie says that Julie can stay with her, but by the end we see that hasn't worked out. Gurlfriend is walking alone despite what everyone sings.

"Yes, it's possible for someone to hit you -- hit you hard -- and not have it hurt at all."

Carousel is actually a VERY difficult show to properly produce because it features characters who are all very flawed and not very sympathetic and it requires strong singers who are also excellent actors and a talented director who can work with the actors to interpret the dark material.

But, most musical theater actors AND directors aren't actually that talented or trained to do that kind of in-depth work.

The result is: Carousel is a musical drama with gorgeous music and challenging themes and situations that frequently ends up a dreary, long winded bore because the right people weren't hired to do it properly.

Oh, and I quoted the "hit you" line and forgot to say why in the above post.

THAT's a primary line in the show which illustrates if a production is any good or not. If a talented actress has been expertly directed, then the line is performed with the correct intent. She's supposed to be expressing bitterness and then horrified by what that means and how it affects her daughter and continues to affect herself. But, it usually comes out foolishly and glibly.

You leave most productions of Carousel thinking that Billy is an idiotic bully and Julie is an idiotic simpering fool and why did I waste 4 hours of my life on this dreary dreck? And, that shouldn't be the case if it's done properly.

[Quote] She's supposed to be expressing bitterness and then horrified by what that means and how it affects her daughter and continues to affect herself

Eeek. You direct?

[quote]In addition to the spousal abuse in Carousel, what about the taunting of Julie. Twice they sing "You'll Never Walk Alone" and yet she is walking alone. Nobody bothers to help her find another husband. Nobody helps her to raise Louise. When Carrie and Enoch go on vacation, they don't offer to take her. When Billy is shot, Nettie says that Julie can stay with her, but by the end we see that hasn't worked out. Gurlfriend is walking alone despite what everyone sings.

Well, we all know about my friend Julie ...

A year after "Flahooley" flopped on Broadway, it was substantially reworked and got a new title: "Jollyanna." It was produced at Lester's San Francisco and Los Angeles Light Opera companies. A return to Broadway was planned, but, despite the revisions, it flopped again.

The new star: Miss Mitzi Gaynor!

[quote] The new star: Miss Mitzi Gaynor!

Why is Mitzi Gaynor stroking her boob in that picture.

If they remake Carousel as a film, they'd probably cast Ansel Elgort as Billy and we'd have another black hole of charisma film with him at the center.

[quote]The pity of it, of course, is that Hytner absolutely could have found actors every bit as good and sexy who could also sing well. New York isn’t London in terms of the MT casting pool.

He DID eventually find at least two other actors who would have been every bit as good as Billy in terms of acting and sexiness and would have sung the role far better than Hayden: Patrick Wilson and James Barbour. Also, Brian d'Arcy James was in the ENSEMBLE of the Lincoln Center production, but he wasn't even an understudy for the role of Billy -- he was an understudy for Jigger. I've never understood what that was all about.

[Quote] New York isn’t London in terms of the MT casting pool.

And yet look what they did to my COMPANY, ma.

[quote]Why is Mitzi Gaynor stroking her boob in that picture.

I have no idea, but I'm told she calls her hips Twirly and Whirly.

[quote] He DID eventually find at least two other actors who would have been every bit as good as Billy in terms of acting and sexiness and would have sung the role far better than Hayden: Patrick Wilson and James Barbour.

Marcus Lovett also was brought in as a standby - I think there was an emergency situation where both Michael Hayden and his understudy were sick at the same time. Lovett was rushed in to play the role. Lovett was a beauty with a great voice and could have easily opened the show.

To Jack Cole,

*

Thanks for everything,

*

Julie Newmar

A bit late, but today is the 45th anniversary of the opening of the original Chicago.

R496 the original CHICAGO debuted on Broadway in December 1926.

[quote]Marcus Lovett also was brought in as a standby - I think there was an emergency situation where both Michael Hayden and his understudy were sick at the same time. Lovett was rushed in to play the role. Lovett was a beauty with a great voice and could have easily opened the show.

Right. Thanks, I forgot about him. Given Hytner's history, I wonder about the whole story behind Hayden's casting in London, but I guess we'll never know.

Lovett has a very big dick. Straight, alas.

Markus Lovett was magnificent (and hot!) in the original London cast of the oftentimes fascinating and thrilling Whistle Down The Wind. Such a shame the show never made it to Broadway and seems to be considered an also-ran in ALW’s oeuvre. Jim Steinman really brought out the best in ALW... the score is easily his strongest post-Sunset.

I miss going to the theater. I guess I'm feeling it a little bit now because my birthday is next week and I usually go out to dinner and see a show on my birthday. I have a feeling it may be a long while before we're able to go back again.

Thanks for the nod, r492!

I wanna see more Mitzi Gaynor clips. Not of her singing and dancing... of her being hilarious.

This one is from the '80s, but she's just as candid and very self-aware.

[quote]Lovett has a very big dick. Straight, alas.

Him, or his dick?

I found a NY Times account of when Marcus Lovett went into Carousel. He was starring in Phantom at the time, but when Michael Hayden and his understudy Duane Boutte were both ill, Lovett auditioned, learned and rehearsed the part and went into the show all within a 48 hour period.

R507, THAT drivel was front page news?!!

What do you want? Up until the Trump Administration, Saturday used to be a slow news day.

I adored the LCT Carousel, but regret that Audra Ann was out the night I saw it. I almost swooned when I finally heard her on the cast album. In the most recent production, Joshua Henry was out, replaced by Nicholas Belton, who was gorgeous, but needed more rehearsal.

The less said about the most recent Broadway Carousel, the better. It was almost as bad as the one Rob Ashford “directed” in Chicago a few years ago.

I think pretty little of Oliver! as a whole, but if you consider all the lyrics (not just those sung on popular recordings), As Long as He Needs Me is the definitive song from a musical about an abusive relationship. Nancy is well aware of how poorly she is treated, but she's persuaded herself that it's all worthwhile because she is integral to Bill's life - apparently projecting from the basis that he is integral to hers. It captures the nuances of the psychology and is deeply affecting at the same time. The moreso by the end of the show, and the moreso because whenever she appears NOT in relation to Bill, she is a comic relief character in the show.

Out of context, the song loses much of it's psychological pathos.

White man. His explanation is completely blind to the real meaning of the song. Nancy "empowers" herself to death, just like so many women before and after her.

The fact that there is domestic abuse in gay relationships only makes it worse that he sees the song this way.

Wasn't that the point, R514? That out of context, the song loses it's pathos? Of course, this was at Miscast, where men sing traditional women's songs and ice versa. But, your first two words have totally taken you out of any relevance, as your attitude puts you in the category of bigot and your opinions become forgettable.

And, leave us not forget that stellar paean to feminine devotion, “The Very Next Man,” from “Fiorello:”

“And if he strikes me, What is the difference if he likes me? I’ll fetch his slippers with my arm in a sling, Just for the privilege of wearing his ring!”

And you can bet no production of that show will ever have those lyrics again!

What's the deal with HAMILTON tickets going on sale today (starting September 8 at the Hollywood Pantages)?

There is no information about any coronavirus mitigation and, looking at the seating chart, there has been absolutely no physical distancing implemented in the theater.

Yes, a rare lapse of taste from Sheldon Harnick on that one. He's revised those lyrics at least twice.

In 1984, he changed the lyrics to:

When he proposes I'll have him send me tons of roses Sweet-scented blossoms I'll enjoy by the hour. I won't restrict myself to one Little Flow'r!

And I think with the past decade also revised it to the following:

I'm through with moping Moping from all this pointless hoping Hoping he'll notice me and open his heart Time now to break away and make a new start

I think Harnick's earlier revision is the better lyric, including the reference to 'Little Flow'r,' Fiorello's nickname, as well as the literal translation of 'fiorello' from Italian to English.

What does Oprah think?

R516, how about this one?

Apparently the Nederlander organization, which owns alot of Bway theatres, is a huge Trump supporter. It has donated tons of money to the Trump Campaign.

ATC isn't allowing posts about Lea Michele

[quote]Apparently the Nederlander organization, which owns alot of Bway theatres

Oh, dear.

Does it own the James?

There's nothing wrong with the lyric to "Happy to Keep His Dinner Warm." It expresses an archaic view on what women want, but in the early 60s, that is indeed what some of them wanted. But there's no equivalent of "I'll be happy if he beats the shit out of me as long as he notices me."

What IS bad in that clip at R520 is the blocking. I kept thinking, "Does she have to pee really badly, or what?" She's squirming thought the whole thing, rather than just singing the damn song.

It's amazing that people don't get that Loesser was lightly sending up the idea of the 50s/early 60s view of the happy housewife.

I remember leaving a viewing of Singing in the Rain once and a couple of young people were seriously trying to make sense of the movie. I wanted to scream at them 'It's just a fucking piece of entertainment you assholes!'

[quote]It's amazing that people don't get that Loesser was lightly sending up the idea of the 50s/early 60s view of the happy housewife.

That is kind of amazing, but some people are so obtuse. The whole tone of HOW TO SUCCEED... is so satirical, in line with the source material. I mean, it doesn't exactly portray old, white businessmen in a flattering light, either...

R526, I wonder, what part(s) of SINGIN' IN THE RAIN didn't those people understand?

R525, you do get that the song is about how unhappy a marriage those expectation will make?

The lyrics are all about isolation within the marriage.

R515, what I was taking exception to was that he said in his intro that Nancy empowers herself through the song. Given that Bill bashes her to death shortly afterwards, I thought it came across as a facile justification that he thought sounded "feminist" enough to him to allow him to sing a song he just thought was a good number for him.

I have no problem at all with a man singing the song. As I said, plenty of men in gay relationships suffer domestic abuse, so there's no excuse for him not to have recognised that and maintained the pathos as Bart intended. But to do it with an intro like this, and with none of the appropriate feeling, has the tone deafness of privilege. That's what I meant by "white man". I didn't mean to insult all white men.

[quote]I wonder, what part(s) of SINGIN' IN THE RAIN didn't those people understand?

“In” and “The.”

r516

Actually, the correct original lyric is:

AND IF HE LIKES ME, WHO CARES HOW FREQUENTLY HE STRIKES ME?

Poor Virginia....

Have we talked about Penis-gate at Disneyland's 'Frozen' production?

TL;DR -- some actor named Cooper Howell wants you to know he's HUNG.

Dot's nice...

The definition of gorgeous...

That Cooper Howell guy talks about his DICK in the third person. How obnoxious is that? I hope his rant backfires on him.

And let's not forget this Harnick lyric from "What Makes Me Love Him?" from THE APPLE TREE:

"He is a good man, but I would love him, if he abused me, or used me ill."

You heard he has a temper. He'll beat you every night!

"I'll lock her up in her room. I couldn't. I should!"

"From that day she was never seen around. We searched high and low, but search as we would, only a trace was found. Her left leg floating in a local brook. We never could find the rest of her, or her book..."

When Encores did Fiorello the second time, they used the "one Little Flower" revision to Very Next Man.

The Virginia O'Brien song at r532 doesn't feel like it's in the same category as the "who cares how frequently he strikes me" kind of thing - it doesn't feel like it's a "men should hit women" kind of thing, but that the boyfriend is clearly a psychopath.

[quote]You heard he has a temper. He'll beat you every night!

Yeah, but in FIDDLER, Tzeitel is using that lyric to purposely give her sisters a reality check about the horrible kinds of husbands they might end up with, rather than the wonderful husbands they hope Yente the matchmaker will find for them.

I did not know that James Michell loathed the experience of making The Band Wagon so much he refused to ever see the film. Handsome guy.

James Mitchell, of course, was also "Dream Curly" in the movie of "Oklahoma!"

But where are Daisy and Nina?

Is Primetime STILL on a week later or is this thread just dead?

dead. like an abused wife.

I'm catching up on my DVR-ed stuff and just finished watching the UK "Sound of Music" and the Harold Prince program (both on PBS.) Have we discussed either of these here on past threads? I realize it's not exactly a timely topic.

I also just started "Rent-Live" (Fox). Still have "The King and I" and the concerts of Jonathan Groff and Megan Hilty to get to.

Similarly to r543's comments about "Matchmaker," the "Tango Tragique" lyrics from She Loves Me that were quoted were "put on" lyrics - Georg is trying to say the most outrageous thing he can think of so that Amalia doesn't want to meet "Dear Friend." It's not a real story about someone he knew.

Yeah, of course. It was a joke.

Miss Newmar gets absolutely terpsichorean!

Cyd's a Party Girl!

More Miss O'Brien...

God Julie was a terrible dancer. I didn't realize she was this bad. Maybe her height had something to do with it. Also except for the terrific Not Since Nineveh Jack Cole hardly created any memorable dance numbers for movies. And he did that first on stage. He might have been a big influence on jazz dancing but any real great work must have been only on the stage. I don't think any thing from Kismet even made it into the That's Entertainment films. And the best number from Les Girls is You're Just Too Too which Kelly probably threw together one morning for himself and Kay.

Oh, I love the Johnson Rag....

I think it's her height, r555. Go to 10:15 and look at her in Ziegfeld Follies. She does make a great Show girl.

So someone finally had the guts to say out loud that Book of Mormon is racist. We've known it for years. So what happens now?

People pay good money to see it.... and laugh out loud.

Not true, r355. There's a great number with Betty Grable and Gwen from one of those 1950s Grable films, and also some great stuff in "On the Riviera." Plus that amazing dance that Gwen did in David & Bathsheba. Plus - hello? -"Ain't There Anyone Here for Love?" from Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, "Put the Blame on Mame" from Gilda (the nightclub version) and several others.

Betty & Gwen

Debbie's Life is...

June Moon.

Our Town - with Spalding Gray.

Dara.

Huh...

Oh, here's Sally.

Everybody ready for Grease tonight?! Warm up your pipes.

I saw that 1989 production of "Our Town." Spalding Gray was terrible as the Stage Manager. What an awful casting choice. "Well, the Stage Manager has a lot of monologues, and Spalding Gray is known for his monologues. He'll be brilliant!"

I've seen much better Stage Managers in community theater productions. Ruined the show for me.

He wasn't much better in porn.

Cyd was so great....

Muriel, you're killing theatre gossip.

Sic semper tyrannis!

Who choreographed that Cyd dance at r571?

The Coriolanus from the NTLive/Domnar was excellent and I know that we love to hate on Hiddleston, but he is very good.

Hermes Pan, r574.

Jack Cole

WTF is that song from ??? where they're singing "Delicatessen, delicatessen"?

Never mind...

Betty looking divine in Travilla AND tappin' in wedgies! Did Mr. Cole choreograph tap?

Yes he did, r580.

Everyone non-BIPOC will need to exit through the gift shop of The American Theatre now. Thank you.

Ethel bein' Ethel!

Montana Levi Blanco on instagram..... Rachel Chavkin

I believe him.

GIrrrrrrrrl.....He also challenges his friend Griffin.

Popping the popcorn!

I don't know ... if he indeed got raves for Lempicka, then I don't understand why she would want to replace him. (Meanwhile, its next big date at the La Jolla Playhouse has been "coronaed.") But that bullshit about dropping an African-American actor for a white one? The part was originated by a white actor. The actor who took over did NOT do his homework as to the musicianship aspect. Mandy Patinkin is a star, the black actor was a nobody who was riding on having been in Hamilton. And Mandy was only going to do it for a few weeks!

Rachel Chakin is a cunt, that seems clear. But not EVERYTHING is her fault here.

Absurd. He got fired/replaced. Happens all the time. New designers, new creatives, new actors, whatever....

If we start a new thread early will it also be paywalled?

So many things could be said about that scurrilous video, but I will say that if the individual who made it had had the nerve to name the person he's obviously calling out, I think he would have been open to a whopping libel suit.

R589, it is so clear who Blanco is talking about that it is just as libelous as if he had mentioned Chavkin et al by name.

To avoid liability, Blanco would have had to obscure Chavkin's gender, the location of the project, subject matter, schedule, etc. There is only one possible project and director that he is referring to.

Please somebody, start a new thread. I'm down to posting Lesley Ann Warren.

Bajour!

Considering how slowly things are going on this thread, we won't need a new one until 2021.

I'm assuming the thread had gotten paywalled and that's part of the problem.

He's calling out Rachel Chavkin, and the musical they worked on together was Lempicka. Why would that be libelous? He's simply relating his experience with her/the production. He shouldn't have mentioned the "black man fired to welcome in a star white man" thing from The Great Comet, though.

This is the Covid-19 of theatre threads.

And from that video, he makes it clear that he would be a nightmare to work with...

[quote]He's calling out Rachel Chavkin, and the musical they worked on together was Lempicka. Why would that be libelous? He's simply relating his experience with her/the production

Why would it be libelous? Because he's stating outright that her firing of him was based on racial discrimination. If in fact it wasn't based on racial discrimination, you don't think that's libelous? Seems to me it definitely would be, because wrongly labeling someone a racist would be extremely injurious to their livelihood and career. (It would also be injurious to their livelihood and career if it were a truthful charge, but then the statement wouldn't be libelous, and the damage would be deserved.)

Ba...

...jour!