I find a ton of people in STEM and Philosophy arrogant and narrow-minded

Philosophy, I understand, OP, but STEM?

R1 For instance, I notice that even a lot of scientists don't understand science, where it's origins come from and how many of them are very biased and ideological. Even hard science is not free from this.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, OP, but if you think you're impressing them with your intelligence and insight you're wrong.

Not at all, OP. I know many people with STEM degrees. It takes a lot of work to get a doctorate in a STEM area, and the ones who don’t have the smarts can’t make it through the entire grueling process. Overall I find them (the ones I know well are all men) engaging, curious, extroverted, funny, realistic, ethical, even brilliant, but not at all superior about it.

The most arrogant people I know are Racial Studies, Gender Studies and Anthropology majors and graduate students. STEM, not so much. Philosophy? Maybe.

Most people with STEM degrees are the opposite of narrow-minded, I find that they're more able to keep open mind about a variety of issues. Part of that has to do with the scientific training mindset, be it confirming theories with deductive research or forming theories with inductive research, they have to possess ability to reason and follow evidence-based pathways. This personality/ intellectual characteristic carries over to non-STEM parts of their lives. My fellow microbiology majors who went on to obtain doctorates in the biological sciences were some of the most interesting, funny, and insightful people I'd ever known.

Philosophy majors are a pretentious bunch, I'd known a couple of them when I worked at a cafe during college. Talk about bloviating and superiority complex.

In academia, there is a type of right wing asshole STEM guy but the truly brilliant STEM guys are intellectually curious and always want to talk about my area of expertise, literature and so on. You also find those arrogant ideological guys in Business departments-- which along with Education is a magnet for stupid people.

[quote]when you have radically unpopular or contrary views

Opinions aren't equal to facts (speaking for the STEM folks and not the philosophers)

Sounds like you're tired of 'experts' with their fancy learnin'.

OP flunked out of a STEM program.

R8 What are facts? Are you aware that science itself comes from the empirical branch of philosophy with its own set of axioms?

R6 The thing is that many of them get threatened when you question their work or any mainstream science.

Philosophy and STEM personalities, as a generalization based on my own experiences, are pretty much opposites. I'm not STEM myself, but wish I were...

Philosophy is pure mathematics and logic, anyone who thinks philosophy is full of open minded people are coming from a place of fantasy. Many philosophy majors have the same cold streak of the aspies in the hard sciences.

"radically unpopular or contrary views to what they hold"

2 + 2 will always equal 4, no matter what your feelings or opinions about it are.

Run along now and breathe with the people at your next Trump rally without a mask.

Doctors can be so disappointing. I thought a mind full of years of medical information would be more witty. Every doctor I've met is a stubborn ass. Forget it! Every single thing I thought would be great about dating a doctor hasn't happened.

Now surgeons on the other hand.

Heh. The philosophy grads may have to come back to earth with a thud when they learn that the world is not exactly clamouring for their services. Shoulda gone to trade school...

As mentioned above, a lot of STEM people are on the spectrum, so not renowned for their social skills.

OP aside, kind of depressing that science and philosophy seem to have become radically divorced in many people's minds. Shouldn't really be the case.

A surgeon told me that awake and lucid have the same meaning. I said so when they say "The patient is awake and lucid they mean the patient is awake and awake". A surgeon.

"The thing is that many of them get threatened when you question their work or any mainstream science. "

They aren't threatened, they're angry. Stupidity and ignorance make them angry, both at humanity in general, and at you in particular.

I'm old and it still surprises when smart STEM professionals display no or little interest in the arts, apart from Doctor Who and Star Trek.

OP can't get anyone to listen to his theories about the earth being flat.

I find a ton of people in humanities and social sciences arrogant and narrow minded.

Too much intersectionality, I suppose.

Dear OP,

projection is thy name. You feel so self-conscious about yourself you have to demean others to feel adequate.

Did your attempt to impress them fail too often?

r20 - I'm an engineer and I'm deeply into classical music. I sing and play several instruments. I know a lot of engineers and many of them are into music or art. You're stuck on stereotypes.

R14 R19 R21 and R23 only lead more credence to OP's point

The problem with philosophy students is when they view everything in life as an intellectual problem to be solved. It does tend to make them arrogant and grating, as well as unrealistic. Once - if -- they realize that the most important problems in life CAN'T, in fact, be solved by thinking and logic, they can become very interesting and engaging people. It's a charming little paradox.

I used to think that STEM people were optimal thinkers (it was a Heinlein thing), but I know two of them who turned into Trump cult members. Theoretically, a PhD should expose you to truth-seeking as a comprehensive way of life, but I think it can be a long and involved trade school for a lot of people. The main thing seems to be learning to successfully apply for grant funding....

OP, maybe at shitty STEM schools, or their graduates. At elite STEM schools, and elite schools in general, STEM students are socially pleasant and often creative. Professors - meh. In the professions - a mixed bag. I'm a professor at a STEM university and every year I meet at least 2 genuine geniuses who think faster and better than 99.99 percent of the population. It's exciting to experience that.

R28 What did those genuine geniuses think about?

Ask them to solve anything. Ask them to analyze anything and they will not only apply an appropriate analysis, it will be sharp.

cocky motherfuckers though.

[quote] I know two of them who turned into Trump cult members

Wow, all TWO of them? That's a stampede, watch out!!!! I have met many stupid people in life, most of them are either Trump or Bernie supporters. The latter tends to dominate in things like gender studies, racial studies, etc. especially if a PhD is involved.

Well, I was trying not to generalize, R32. Just two, both of the two STEM PhDs that I know personally. So, I could have said 100% of the STEM PhDs I know are Trump supporters. But I'm not a miserable piece of shit like you, so I stuck to real life.

“arrogant and narrow-minded“

How dare you OP!

When you are arguing a point with someone trained as a scientist, and you begin your argument with "I feel ..." don't expect them to treat you with kid gloves.

Agreed R25, and you can add R35 to that list. R35 you're another example of proving OPs point. "I feel" is a perfectly valid opener to an interesting, rigorous discussion. There is a place for "I feel" (and there are places not for it) and people dismissing what is often conscious and appropriate intellectual humility for stupidity are often the exact type of wrong-headedly arrogant STEM-types OP is likely talking about.

No single field has a monopoly on intelligence.

A few months ago I had a Biology PhD strenuously arguing that I should treat my dog with a homeopathic remedy. When gently questioned he cited a study. N=6, paid for by the company selling the remedy, not placebo controlled, randomized or double-blinded etc. He then got extremely angry at me, told me I "didn't understand," and implied I was stupid for not just caving, with my lowly arts education, to him. Which is exactly the kind of BS OP is talking about.

Your degree does not make you smart. Your smarts make you smart (or not).

R36, I feel you are full of shit. Get the point?

OP, serious question: where did you find them and how were you able to reach this conclusion? Did you survey them, or did you read a survey that proves is or suggests this to be the case? If so, what was the framework used for this study, and how many times has it been repeated, in order to support these observations, that led to these conclusions? More importantly, has anyone ran studies to oppose these conclusions? Or are you yourself here, looking for an opportunity to troll people, or to feed into your own confirmation biases, because a STEM nerd challenged you, or made you feel inadequate?

And I want to clarify that I have my own biases involved when asking you these questions, and I identify this, and acknowledge it. What’s my bias? It is that I’m am exhausted with people who argue based on emotion, rather than reason. They argue or troll, in order to be right, or in order to pass idle time, or whatever the fuck these motives are or may be, or could become.

I D G A F about your politics, or if you really care, or don’t. You are not the problem, so this now moves away from you.

For years, I have been spent time listening to a nation that no longer knows how to think, and therefore, cannot actually demonstrate why they believe this, or believe that. They claim we should run a small government, yet show no ideas on how this can feasibly happen, how, or how long it could take. They don’t understand how at this moment, that idea is impossible, because people are corrupt. The libertarians say the free market will provide us answers, yet deny or overlook the incredible undertaking that must be achieved in consortium of multiple systems, and that those systems must be incorruptible for it to work. AI is the solution? Perhaps, but what if the solution does not include humanity? Because that really might be a solution, and even the best one.

In order for us to get to a place where we become unaffected by diversity and challenges or where we are not offended when someone asks us a question and gets an answer, and then asks the person why, again, or to prove why why is why, without wanting to come to blows or worse, just giving up on each other as fellow persons, with a legacy that we are responsible for, we first have to get every single person on earth, and start educating them from day one. And how will we solve this challenge, when education is so diverse, or non existent to so many?

The big bright spot that I see here, because of this virus, is released-learning. Perhaps tech can finally do something to provide this for all and for free, from cradle to grave. And yes, we will now trust a bunch of non engaged parents to choose a curriculum of their choosing, depending on if they pay for the better one, or take the free one.

How do we manage and change that without government, and how do we trust them to make good choices, when we cannot trust ourselves and each other, to do something that provides free thinking for all, and a level playing field, when so many people have no freakin clue what something like this even looks like, right now, as it currently exists, and fails?

People do not understand why they believe what they believe because they don’t even attempt to understand how they came to believe something, or if it’s true, false, or just a hunch. We feed off frenzy, and if I don’t fight my own biases hourly, I will become part of the problem, more than I already am. What’s your contribution to this, OP? Being validated or offended, does not count as an actual contribution. So neither of us are superior or special.

STEMs are the best and widely accessible shot we currently have for a sustainable future. And by future, I mean kids and their kids and and grandkids. Because why? I dunno. I haven’t any, kids, yet it still matters to me, the arrogant, STEM loving twat that I am.

R37 Yeah, you kinda just proved my point. You "feel" I'm full of shit. That's perfectly valid. It's not untrue because you can't prove it with math (for example). You feeling I'm full of shit is perfectly valid outside you not being able to prove I'm full of shit using formal logic. There are whole swathes of existence and experience that exist outside the legitimate boundaries of science. Get the point?

"STEMs are the best and widely accessible shot we currently have for a sustainable future."

This is bunk. Pure scientism, religion, faith. Stephen Hawking himself was of the opinion that many of the main existential threats to life on earth came from science and tech. Which you'll notice, before you shoot back with some more hilariously arrogant twaddle, isn't an argument against science and tech. I'm all for science and tech. I am not all for this new religion where STEMlords (and ladies) are the best, the smartest, the only ones worth listening to.

You're exactly who OP is (I assume) talking about, and he has every right in the world to criticize people like you (what do you even mean about a contribution? OP made one, gave his opinion, as you have given yours, and you have no more right to yours than he does to his).

The best scientists see and acknowledge their human frailties and egos, the worst believe only others have them.

Also LO-fucking-L at you linking the Big Think. FFS.

that is because they are smart. i have a masters in physics and i try to be fair but i hate talking to stupid people. especially the ones that are too stupid to ever learn.

'but why can't something go faster than the speed of light in a vacuum?' you know what, i'm not gonna explain it to people stupid enough to ask that

Nobody with an IQ over 100 would waddle their fat ass into this discussion. We live in an Idiocracy, and I would say at least 75 percent of people are literally retarded. Look at the NYT bestseller list, or even try to read the NYT now, it's insane. Superhero comic book movies, and NETFLIX creates 400 million hours of asinine unwatchable drivel, and everything has a 98 percent positive rating, every film is a masterpiece because everyone is retarded now. Doctors, nurses, scientists, engineers, everyone. STEM people arrogant? Try fucking autistic.

r38 Thanks for the manifesto Poindexter nerd. I feel like sticking you in a locker for a few hours, and finishing it off with a swirly or two. STEM people? I bought a new car this year and it's still a fucking combustion engine from 1904. Can you people invent anything other than apps that count how many apps are on a device. That's the kinda shit stem people do now. Instead of the Apollo project, Elon Musk is shooting cars into space for no reason. His electric sports cars are awesome because they can go 200 mph and use 900 times the resources of a normal car, and leave us with gigantic batteries sitting around landfills that our great grandchildren can use as building blocks for their shanty favela homes.

Hovercars? Mass transit? A cure for anything? Housing that doesn't look like shit and cost 5 million dollars? The only things invented are military stuff used to drone brown people. Nope. You make apps that nobody needs, to be used on phones that nobody needs. Half the population is unemployed.

Ok nerd, how about teaching. Do ANY of you teach anyone anything? Because if everyone is retarded it means that you STEM people aren't exactly killing the whole teaching thing.

True OP. Many STEM people are just sheeple following the trends. They can't do good science.

I'm an engineer (EE) and have been around other engineers for 30+ years. I don't think most of you have ever met an engineer much less worked with one. Lots of stereotypes being spewed out here.

R42 flip the script and you’ll see what OP means. This will require empathy and abstract non-lateral thinking.

Yesterday I tried to explain to my sister’s boyfriend, an engineer, the fundamental difference between creative interpretation and imitation (not a difficult distinction to make) as well as that between art and aesthetic design. He could not grasp the difference even in the simplest terms.

Yeah - OP showed his ass when he said he had radically unpopular and contrary views.

OP - you're probably an argumentative contrarian. Nobody likes that shit - and you're not being honest. You do it to make yourself seem more intelligent.

Ain't nobody have time to argue with someone like you. There is no winning.

R24 is dead right. Research using MRIs has shown that the part of the brain that deals with maths is the same one that processes music and chess moves. So you would expect a lot of STEM people to love and play music.

I'm hoping R42 is satirising OP.

R47, did you try explaining your concepts in engineering terms? For example, how far Steves Jobs and Wozniak took 1970s computers (in several stages including, finally, the iPhone) as creative interpretation, vs Windows copying Apple's operating sytem? You could then talk about Netscape's application of Windows principles to the Web, and have quite the debate about whether that was interpretation or copying - just like Netscape and Microsoft did in court.

Artsy people often treat STEM people with considerable arrogance, expecting them to grasp in a conversation concepts and definitions that the artsy people learned over time in university, and even then, often not well enough to be able to explain clearly.

Most of all, though, I loathe OP's very premise. It's part of the Right-wing "Smart people are actually the stupid ones" rubric that allows non-scientists to believe all kinds of garbage with impunity (hello, anti-vaxxers). If your views are radically different from those held by a STEM person, and it's on a STEM topic, you can pretty much guarantee what you're saying has no evidence base. If you want a STEM person to believe your opinion matters in the absence of an evidence base, it's not gonna happen. All of their training tells them each hypothesis must be proved before it can be accepted. (To quote the very arty but NOT stupid Tim Minchin: "Alternative medicine is medicine that has either not been proved to work, or been proved not to work. Medicine that has been proved to work is called Medicine.")

The history of science is built on people who abandoned their deepest-held theories after years of work because they finally had to admit the evidence didn't stack up, and who instead moved on to work on a new hypothesis that had a better chance of proof. Let me know anytime someone with views that "differ radically" from those of a STEM person ever does likewise.

Nobody who chooses to major in philosophy can be all that smart, OP.

I'm in a STEM field and didn't pursue a masters or PhD. With the experience i have people are stunned. That being said the thing I find most abhorrent is M.D.'s. They're basically gatekeepers and pill pushers. They have no idea how to cure, just make it a chronic condition and drug it to death.

What they say is true. Doctors aka M.D.s and D.O's tend to be well like a stopped cock, perhaps right twice a day. And online I have a Pyschiatrist who essentially is an M.D. who told me most doctors have no clue 30 to 40 percent of the time. I've seen this in my dealings with doctors.

In essence I'd learned the dirty little secrets of the medical field. I'm channeling Dr. Bones McCoy - I find medicine to be just barely out of the dark ages.

Goodness, R51. I didn't think a stopped cock was ever right. I suppose it depends what stops it.

R51,

Call me when you need your clogged LAD bypassed because the cardiologist can’t push a stent through the stenosis. Then we will see who knows what.

Looks like R51 didn’t believe the stupid epidemiologists and kept eating cheeseburgers. He didn’t trust that quack cardiologist who suggested Lipitor. He told the egotistical cardiac surgeon with a God complex that’s his coronaries were just fine, thank you very much. Now we have one fewer DLEG around to annoy us!

I'm sure they find the OP reprehensible.

I find anyone in academia reprehensible.

R51 I have a doctorate and research experience but am female and so many doctors I’ve interacted with think that they are better at interpreting research with zero statistics/research design experience than I am. I have even been talked down to by MDs as of I wouldn’t understand big words. Wtf—so many doctors are self-important douchebags and everyone kisses their asses. If I practiced with anywhere near as low standards as doctors are held to by the public, I’d be out of a job (I’ve been laughed at by a doctor when I was in the icu for asking a simple question and was misdiagnosed in the ER because they were biased). When will medical school teach humility and empathy as part of being a doctor?

*pardon the incorrect autocorrects there.

I work for a university and was surprised by narrow-mindedness of people in the the STEM fields.

They tend to discount any knowledge outside their own specific field of research. And we will not go into the bigotry. (Get them relaxed and you will hear why women, blacks, latinos, or americans could not handle doing the kind of hard mental labor that they do.)

STEM is a misspelling, OP. I think you meant to spell it as, "everyoke in every Humanities department."

*everyone. Ugh. Apologies!

R61, I thought you meant to type "everywoke" and thought "how appropriate"!