Israel, Simple Question: Good or Bad?

Sorry, link didn't go thru first time....

Bad.

Trolls are not even trying any more.

I love the State of Israel

[quote]I am an American Born Jew

I loved visiting Israel. Tel Aviv is ok, but Jerusalem is awe inspiring.

People like to criticize Israel, but Israel is the only country in the Middle East where people have freedom of religion and free expression.

And all of those hot young Jewish guys in military fatigues. Sigh.

I honestly don't think there is a simple answer. Way too much history and politicizing has made this a very complex issue. I hear Tel Aviv is nice.

I’ve read 25 books on this subject. Israel good, Obama bad.

At least the israelis don’t throw gays off roofs, like the Muslims do. But sure, let’s support all the pro muslim drag queens (zero logic there).

Whataboutism R9. We aren't discussing g Muslims. We are discussing Israeli corruption.

R10 The practice of throwing gays (or anyone) off of buildings is wrong no matter who is doing it, so your Whataboutism point is moot.

Principle of Israel as a country - good

Current government of Israel - bad

I don't think Golda Meir would recognize Israel as it is today...and it is not for the better.

OP the fact that you come here and ask a bunch of these knuckle heads to label anything good or bad for you just goes to show your a fucking idiot. I hope you get baked in an oven. I really do. You're just plain stupid.

This should have been a poll.

Wrong R15! This should never have been asked at all. The OP is a dirty filthy idiot that should be turned over to the Nazi's right away. To have no respect for the Jewish people and ask strangers about the state of Israel instead of learning about it for himself is a disgrace.

Mind the apostrophes, R16.

Ah, I see matt, the psychopath has arrived.

We have an antisemitic jew hater in the chat...

"The two have been on friendly terms since Netanyahu's stint as Israel's ambassador to the United Nations. For years they kept in close touch. Every Sunday afternoon, New York time, Netanyahu would call Silverstein. It made no difference what the subject was or where Netanyahu was, he would always call, Silverstein told an Israeli acquaintance."

Very good! Visited Israel 4 years ago. Loved it! There is so much history, culture, excellent food....a young, very civilized, vibrant country.

The Jews were there thousands of years before the islamic conquest. The Jews deserve a country of their own again.

R19 you're an idiot.

Bad. All states built on religion are.

[quote]Israel, Simple Question: Good or Bad?

Israel, Simpleton's Question: Good or Bad?

There, fixed it for you.

The Israeli people are fine. It’s their government that is corrupt. I do wish the Jews and Palestinians had better relations.

Israel good for Jews, bad for Palestinians.

[quote] The Jews were there thousands of years before the islamic conquest. The Jews deserve a country of their own again.

How do you respond to people who post things like this?

It isn't a simple question. Just phrasing it that way indicates that you're baiting people.

Nothing about Jewish history has ever been "simple".

Why would anyone have expected a Jewish homeland in the 20th century following nearly successful genocide to be?

[bold] Russia, Simple Question: Good or Bad?

I am an American Born Red Diaper Baby who has always been raised to believe in Russia, that Moscow is the Holy Land and all should be done to keep the people's state going. But the last few years I have been confused by the politics, the scandals and corruption we've heard about, and Putin's embrace of Trump. I thought Putin had been indicted for corruption, embezzlement, and a new leader was to be voted in.

Could someone with a confident handle on the situation please explain it to me. I especially welcome any international DL'ers reading this. Any DL'ers in Russia?

Thanks.

OP, I would suggest that DL is really the wrong place for this--you'll attract all the wrong posters and your thread will most likely be deleted. I would find a forum (even a subreddit) where people will not be automatically suspicious of your motives like on DL, are interested in this particular subject, and are willing to engage with you and answer your questions.

R7, R12, and R13 for the win.

Something to keep in mind about the Israeli government is that it's the product of blatant right-wing corruption and electoral fraud. That's why Netanyahu is still practically untouchable. I think regular Israelis have also lived in fear for many years, both manufactured by the Israeli right wing and generated organically by Hamas chucklefucks lobbing rockets into Israel proper, and that hardly helps the political situation either.

Hamas being in charge in the Gaza Strip is one reason why I'm not as pro-Palestinian as I otherwise might be. Nothing will get better until Hamas gets the boot.

That's sort of the problem in a nutshell R32

There's no one to make peace with even if you wanted to.

Hamas (Gaza) and Fatah (West Bank) trust each other less than they trust the Israelis and there are plenty of Hamas supporters in the West Bank and Fatah supporters in Gaza, so it's not like you can strike a deal with the more reasonable Fatah and be done with it so long as Hamas is running Gaza

Netanyahu is Israel’s Trump—a fascist who made tons on being the president. He’s done whatever the ultra right wing has wanted just to keep power.

The right wing hates gays, by the way. They would be thrilled to throw gays off buildings. Instead they kill gays during the gay pride parades

Israel was a good idea until Bibi ruined it

R35 Just to be fair, it isn't all about Bibi. Most of the Haredim are mad, and the Orthodox Chief Rabbinate has too much power. It's a lopsided situation which many Israelis are not fond of.

Israel...land-grabbing mutilators.

IMHO, I think creating Israel will be remembered as one of the greatest errors in history. For the last 72 years we've been dragged into a fight that we have no business in. Neither side wants to get along, they both want to be the dominant force in the region.

IMHO, I think creating Israel will be remembered as one of the greatest errors in history. For the last 72 years we've been dragged into a fight that we have no business in. Neither side wants to get along, they both want to be the dominant force in the region.

No one asked you for a response, R27.

Actually, that is incorrect, R38. Israel has made numerous attempts at peace to no avail. It will never happen. Jew hatred is a fundamental tenet of islam. The islamic god instructs muslims to kill Jews wherever they find them, and the islamic god sanctifies this incitement to genocide.

It's complicated, unlike OP's trolling.

[quote]IMHO, I think creating Israel will be remembered as one of the greatest errors in history. For the last 72 years we've been dragged into a fight that we have no business in. Neither side wants to get along, they both want to be the dominant force in the region.

IMHO, I think creating Pakistan will be remembered as one of the greatest errors in history. For the last 72 years we've been dragged into a fight that we have no business in. Neither side wants to get along, they both want to be the dominant force in the region.

Moot point, OP.

R29 for the win.

Israelies are just about the rudest people on earth. Only one step below mainland Chinese people. Their behavior is shocking.

OP and others: you might be interested in this Oxford Union debate on the BDS ("Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions") movement between UK gay-rights and human-rights activist Peter Tatchell and Professor Alan Dershowitz:

R46, people warned me about how rude Israelis can be. I was there for two weeks and never encountered any rudeness or hostility. They are not Greeks or Spaniards, of course, but not nearly as rude as New Yorkers can be. I felt that they just weren't very comfortable speaking English.

R46/R48 I think that assertion is an overused generalisation. The Haredi, or Ultra-Orthodox can certainly be that way, brusque and dismissive, however many mainstream Israelis are very nice and well-mannered.

Israel is a huge melting pot: many Americans and Europeans, it isn't really fair to paint with such a broad brush. Obviously it depends which neighbourhoods you find yourself in.

R43, that's a good point. I have met Pakistanis who are very proud of their country and I think to myself "why?". If I had to live in South Asia (and I never want to, ever), I would live in Nepal, India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh (yes, even Bangladesh) over Pakistan.

I think it's somewhere between good and bad. Why? The Israel of the 1960's and 1970's when they forged a peace with Egypt. And later gained the respect of several other border nations. In fact the only one they could never achieve peace with was the Palestinians.

Whatever you think of Netanyahu, he managed the pandemic much much much much much much much much much much much much better than his buddy Trump.

They has strict lockdowns, anyone coming in from overseas was quarantined for 14 days on arrival and with a population of 9 million (more than NYC) there have only been 276 deaths so far.

And that's with the Haredim (Hasids) more or less ignoring lockdown orders to the point where they had to send in the army to patrol their neighborhoods to enforce it.

I do fear for Israel's international reputation with its goals to annex the entire West Bank. Zionist has become a dirty word, and a moniker used improperly. Without hesitation I believe Israel is THE Jewish homeland, and it has every right to exist, despite many mistakes made along the way.

It was originally proposed that only Area C was to be annexed, (I don't support any of it) now with Trump's tacit approval, Bibi and others are emboldened to go for this land grab, some advocates say even the majority of Palestinians in Area C shall not be automatically eligible for Israeli citizenship, even if they would choose that. That is unconscionable to me. There once was a pact not long ago, where progressive parties would refuse participation in any coalition government if this were to come to pass.... Sadly, it seems many have reneged. Despite boundaries being a difficult matter, many better solutions have been presented to this.

I hope more brilliant minds prevail, or else Israel shall lose more support from progressive Jews who live throughout the world.

No one can foster goodwill or trust on the road to peace, and a two-state future whilst Israel continues down this path. International law and common sense must prevail to ensure fairness.

R47, thanks for posting that. I'm a big fan of the Oxford Union debates. I somehow missed that one. It was very interesting, intelligent and informative, on both sides of the debate.

This news story sums up why nothing about the situation is easy:

The United Arab Emirates (UAE) sent a planeload of humanitarian aid for Palestinians to fight Covid.

The EIthad Airlines plane landed in Israel because they have an international airport.

The Iranians immediately denounced the UAE and accused them of betraying the Palestinians.

Hamas does whatever Iran says, so they're not happy about it either.

And once again the Palestinian people wind up in the middle, losing.

I'm an American-born Israeli. Been living between the US and Israel until I was about 14 - my parents couldn't decide where the f they wanted to live, but they finally settled in Israel to be close to the rest of the family. Here's my random insights/rants as an "insider": - Politics: BAD. The political situation with the neighboring countries and especially the Palestinians is like an extremely tangled spider web, I don't believe it could be resolved. People here don't have much hope for "peace", it has become some sort of a mock word even. Just plain distrust between the two "sides". I think the last time people really felt optimistic was in the early 90's when Rabin was prime minister. Then that orthodox wack-job assassinated him in the the middle of Tel Aviv and took all sign of hope down the shitter with him. - Occupation: BAD. I wouldn't say the Palestinian population is comprised of only saints and martyrs, they're a society like any other. But the occupation situation is a major fuck-up, it really does corrupt your soul. Many Israelis have an innate superiority complex and it's frustrating to see that Zionism is still considered a good thing and so many proudly describe themselves as true believers. You learn in school about the 19th century european colonialism of Africa and its atrocities, but the common slow-brained Israeli will probably fail to see the similarities. - IDF: BAD. I did my mandatory service. Nothing violent - I was in the navy intelligence. During my training they gave us big ass M-16's and took us to the shooting range often. I cried the first time I shot it. And it's so powerful it gives you nasty bruises to your chest and arm. I will never forgive the state for tricking me, and all the 18 year old kids fresh out of high school, straight into this joke of "serving your country". It's been some years since I last put on those retched uniforms, I hope today's kids are better informed and worldly to know that usually this is such a waste of time, so if they want out, they can get a pass even before they're enlisted. - Tel Aviv: GOOD. I've been a resident for almost 10 years now, after a few years in Jerusalem (BAD). It's expensive as fuck, the summers are brutal, it could get extremely crowded and as an avid cyclist, the drivers are the worst and there's not a single day when I don't fear for my life. But it's a small city so you can walk or cycle almost everywhere, you have every type of cultural activities you can think of, it feels very diverse, it attracts the most interesting people and the food is great. It always felt like a much smaller version of NYC to me. - People: dunno really. I live in my little left-wing bubble and rarely venture out of it. There's a general feeling that most Israelis are basically helpless morons, the prime example is Netaniahu keeping getting re-elected time and time again. So it's better to my mental health to keep away from the news and not socialize with the so called morons too often. People are indeed rude, in general, it's even considered a virtue. But it's more like funny-rude, you just say whatever's on your mind and don't have too much respect for other people's personal space. The social distancing of the last few months made thing a little better in that respect, but I guess people will be quick to forget and be back to hi fiving strangers in no time.

They may not throw people off the roof but they happily murder Palestinians the natives of the country they are stealing.

Ignorant Jew-hating trash squat on their fat thighs to shit on Jews/Israel. Guess the "Hasidics" threads all got deleted.

R56 Cool perspective. Thanks for sharing.

[quote] IDF: BAD. I did my mandatory service. Nothing violent - I was in the navy intelligence. During my training they gave us big ass M-16's and took us to the shooting range often. I cried the first time I shot it. And it's so powerful it gives you nasty bruises to your chest and arm. I will never forgive the state for tricking me, and all the 18 year old kids fresh out of high school, straight into this joke of "serving your country".

Sadly, there seems to be a move to introduce compulsory military service here in the U.S., too, that goes far beyond selective service. I was stunned when Susan Rice was out promoting her book and casually weaving in how necessary she found it that all citizens be required to serve and none of her interviewers would push back. Total madness.

on my first trip I was aware of something so subtle...that the Jews were so mentally and physically relaxed and not on their guard as they usually are in Europe. I think of my Dad who rarely spoke of his Jewishness in an effort to protect us his kids.

It has big issues, and it depends who you talk to from the Palestinian side on how they feel about the place. Educated and living in Israel, it's great;poor and living in Gaza you burn with hatred. An hour ago I was in contact with a relative in Johannesburg and watched a video of the shooting of Jews by Einsatzgruppen in a village in Latvia where my family came from. Among those shot that day were 3 family members. I understand why Israel exists. I wish to fuck people could just get on and live in peace. On the whole, Israel is good.

On the whole Israel is bad. They are a land of land stealers and murderers.

I do not understand why Israel exists. There is no reason for them to be occupying the land. Many have Russian roots, I am sure Putin could find a village to park them in so Palestine can have their country back.

[quote] I am sure Putin could find a village to park them in

That man is INCREDIBLE!

I admire Israel but I can't stand the hypocrisy of some jews. They demand that white countries get flooded with africans immigrants and yet they want Israel to remain an ethnostate. Why can't whites have a place of their own just like jews have Israel?

[quote] Why can't whites have a place of their own just like jews have Israel?

The Anti-Semite has arrived.

R53 I too believe that if you can keep and defend your land, the. It’s yours. Many people make the argument that because Jews once’s lived there, that they have a forever claim to the land. No other country in the world operates under that rule. I’m seriously confused about the idea that Jews were owed old land back when people from all over the world aren’t able to make similar claims.

That said, the people are good. The government is to conservative for my taste.

Jews have Israel, africans have Africa and asians have Asia. Why can't whites have a place of their own? What the hell is anti-semitic about that?

[quote] africans have Africa and asians have Asia.

Africa and Asia are continents consisting of various nationalities and ethnic groups. Not sure what your point is.

R63 Because historically, White Christians oppressed the Jews throughout Europe for centuries, mostly because the Christians blamed the Jews for crucifying Jesus. The whites have also been financially oppressed by Jewish bankers for hundreds of years by usury. That was a big selling point for Hitler, because the Jews actually did have a monopoly on the banks, and still do in many ways. A weakened white race is more preferable to some Jews than a strong white race who may potentially oppress them once again in the future. Many Jews believe that they are superior because they're God's "chosen people". I've met some Jews who believe that whites and blacks intermarrying is a good thing for Jews, who don't support miscegenation in their own society. The belief is that race mixing produces confused people with no roots who are easily manipulated. Granted, not all Jews feel this way, but it's hard to say just how many do. The Hasidic Jews in particular are very racist.

R67: It's a white supremacist who wants America for whites. These sub-humans do this in every thread about Israel because they're cretins. FF and ban it.

R69, not sure how that person hasn't been banned yet. They should at the very least be banned for blatant stupidity.

I'm not american. I'm talking about Europe. Europe should be a continent for europeans, just like Israel is a country for jews.

[quote]The whites have also been financially oppressed by Jewish bankers for hundreds of years by usury. That was a big selling point for Hitler, because the Jews actually did have a monopoly on the banks, and still do in many ways.

Ignorant, anti-Jewish scree. The same as used by Hitler, who learned it from 1,700 years of Church-fomented Jew hatred.

Bunch of little Adolphs and Heinrichs all over this thread.

Some of my favorite artists are jews. I worship Barbra Streisand, Sondheim and James Gray. Jennifer Jason Leigh is one of my favorite actresses. I just wish jews could stop demanding that Europe gets flooded with african immigrants. That's all.

The founding of Israel was a half-assed project, if you're going to take over someone else's country, you need to crush the opposition utterly, so they're under no illusions that the place belongs to you now.

Uh this is history, R72. The Jews were barred from most professions due to that antisemetism you're referring to. The only vocations available to Jews in Europe for centuries were as bankers and jewellers. How else could Hitler have been so effective at convincing the Nazis that Jews were the cause of their devastated economy?

This is from the Jerusalem Post: [quote]As mentioned previously, it is no secret that the Jewish people and the diamond industry have a long history together, dating back as far as the middle ages and onwards. During this time, Israelis were dotted all around Europe, with many of the countries they occupied imposing harsh limitations on the types of industries that Jewish people could work in. Jews were prohibited from buying land and furthermore from engaging in any agricultural practices, which drove them to professions that did not carry such strict limitations. One main industry that remained untouched by such strict and prejudice limitations across Europe was finance and trade, including such specific professions as loans, banking, and the trading of gemstones and diamonds. This therefore led to a significant portion of Jewish people working within the finance and trade industry, which is where the relationship between diamonds and the Jewish people first started to grow.

Next time, do your due diligence, otherwise you risk sounding like a moron.

R70: You ban it, by clicking the ban button. Or block button. But banning sounds more forceful and final. But make sure you FF that Nazi crap before the banning. Too bad there's no Beating button, some of these assholes sure deserve one...

Jews have no idea that if whites get screwed, they will also get screwed. Jews have much more in common with whites than with other races. We should be in this together.

WTF, when did this site turn into Stormfront?

Israel is an evil occupier.

R78 Didn't you know that far left Progressives hate Jews? They promote Islam like there's no tomorrow.

OP - something doesn't feel quite right about your post.

If you are truly an "American Born Jew" as you claim, I doubt that you'd be so naive on this subject that you'd need to turn to DataLounge to help you form an opinion. You would be either directly or indirectly exposed to Jewish culture, attitudes and views on this matter.

Is this an attempt to bait people into speaking badly about Israel?

R80 - it is possible to embrace Islam without hating Jews. True progressives don't feel hate toward anyone - with the possible exception of the deplorables.

R77, be Jewish is a religion not a “race”

"I am an American born Jew" is the new:

"Lifelong Liberal Democrat here who voted for Obama twice, but Hillary/Biden..."

OP, every country has its share of scandals and shitheads. Why people expect Israel to be any different, I have no idea. People who live in glass houses...

Let's also take into account that the far Right has risen all over the world. Extremists are running the show now. Again, Israel is no different in that regard. There will always be people who jerk off over nationalism. The Right has used that for decades. The shittier a country gets, the more its citizens wish to be lied to, told they're #1 and how wonderful everything is. The Right will give that to them. The Left on the other hand will throw reality in people's faces, hoping to make real change, real progress. Average citizens just don't want to deal with that. It's too hard. Most human beings are incredibly lazy.

I actually had a socialist tell me that Israel shouldn't exist, its mere existence is antisemitic - it was created because countries didn't want Jews living with them, and the belief that Jews need a homeland is basically telling Jews that they're not wanted in other countries. This person wasn't a Jew, btw. Mental gymnastics working overtime.

Honestly, I don't care about the politics and I love Israel. The lady I am rooming with and I took a trip there in September and got a gorgeous suite in Jerusalem and we wandered around and you simply can't compare the level of civilization with what the Arab neighborhoods look like. The Arabs were welcoming and hospitable but overall, we were incredibly impressed and glad we took the trip.

[quote]Why can't whites have a place of their own just like jews have Israel?

Whites have Scandinavia.

Bad obviously.

A religious state that is institutionally racist, which implements an Apartheid regime against the indigenous Palestinian population is inviting, and deserves conflict.

Israel is an Apartheid state.

Boycott, divest, sanctions.

Scandinavian countries are full of african immigrants, just like every other western european country. Asshole. Whites need an ethnostate of their own, just like jews have Israel.

Idiot/r90, the majority is white. Israel also has Muslims living in its country.

I visited Israel last year and saw police and the military almost every place I visited. If it takes that much force to keep the peace it can't be good. Is it Israel's fault? That's hard to say because there has been internal fights and also with Israel's neighbors for as long as I can remember.

OP's statement that Jerusalem is the Holy Land is difficult to see if you visit the city. Jerusalem is a divided city and occupied by various religious and political groups.

Given Israel's current government, now you have a potentially corrupt government in a chaotic region. This isn't good for anyone. As for Netanyahu, this is just another conflict that will run its course and a new government will take over at some point. Having Trump involved in any way isn't good for anyone.

By the standards of modern progressive Western democracies in peaceful regions, Israel is only moderately open, liberal, progressive and free from corruption etc, and accepting of LGBT people. They dont yet have gay marriage, but have granted some limited recognition of civil unions since 1994. they do have Pride parades etc in Tel Aviv

But people forget that Israel is and has been effectively in a state of war since its inception, and constantly under attack from all sides. And it was born as the result of the Holocaust, with all the emotional and spiritual baggage that comes with quite understandably. And additionally it has a significant proportion of the population that is very religious and conservative. When you take all that into account, it becomes clear that it is surprising that it is as good as it is. It is far better on LGBT rights for instance than any other country in its region. Compare apples with apples - Israel should be compared with other countries in the Middle East, and also countries that are currently at war or experiencing unrest/ terrorism.

Yes, Israel has issues, and major flaws. It has a culture than can at times appear harsh. But name a wartorn country that doesnt. And name a country in the Middle East that is anywhere as good to live in as an openly gay person

Britain occupied Palestine from 1918 to 1948. They sponsored the theft of the land by the Zionists in 1948. The zionists have been murdering the natives and stealing their land ever since. It is important to separate Jews from Zionists. I know of only one Jewish person in my circle who supports this terrorist nation. Even many who live there believe the Zionists who murder and steal land to be in the wrong.

Bad.

The Middle East is a messy, histrionic drama queen. I’m surprised there’s anyone left alive.

Bibi reminds me of Putin in many ways. The fact that he has managed to keep power even after being brought up on a ton of charges is creepy as fuck. Before you know it he’ll be in power forever like Vlad.

R94 is extreme, but there is some truth in what they’re saying. Most Jews I know either don’t care about Israel or believe it has the right to exist but will call out the country for how it treats non-Jews in there very only country. It’s a very fucked up situation. The bottom line is Israel exists, it’s not going anywhere. Some people still can’t wrap their heads around this.

Israel was a decent idea in the beginning, but over the decades the suppression of the Palestinian Arabs is bad. Israel has under Netenyahu has taken much of the Palestinian territory and basically has become an apartheid state. That is why the Israelis have lost so much international support.

[quote] Israel is only moderately open, liberal, progressive and free from corruption etc, and accepting of LGBT people.

That’s not really true. Gays have a tough time there. It’s not like living in Saudi Arabia, but it’s not paradise for them either. Israel is definitely not free from corruption. It’s hugely corrupted, especially right now. Bibi and his cunt wife should be sitting in jail cells.

[quote] Given Israel's current government, now you have a potentially corrupt government in a chaotic region. This isn't good for anyone. As for Netanyahu, this is just another conflict that will run its course and a new government will take over at some point. Having Trump involved in any way isn't good for anyone.

Honestly, American Jews cause most of the problems in that country.

For all the talk about it being a 'Jewish homeland', the Zionists don't want you to bring up the Canaanites and how the Jews genocided them.

It’s not American Jews but Americans period. Even the Christian Zionists are helping to fuck up that region.

There are two huge problems Israel has to face with any proposed solution to its Palestinian problem:

1. Gaza. Israel doesn't want it, but can't give it away because Egypt doesn't want it either. If Gaza became independent, Hamas would goad Israel into an outright shooting war that would be devastating to Gaza, and leave Israel looking like the bad guy no matter WHAT it did.

2. Right of Return. The majority of Israelis would happily agree to allow the West Bank to vote to join Israel, and give Palestinians WHO LIVE IN THE WEST BANK RIGHT NOW Israeli citizenship. Israelis might even be persuaded to cut a deal that recognized Palestinian conversions to non-Orthodox Judaism (like Russian immigrants to Israel have) to encourage cultural assimilation. The problem is, there are a lot of Palestinians who presently live in other countries, like Jordan, who'd demand the right to return and take up the same offer... and the UN would be inclined to agree with them. Israelis would NEVER agree to it.

If the West Bank joined Israel, with Palestinians gaining full voting rights in the Knesset, but with exiled Palestinians remaining exiled and Gaza out of the equation, the balance of power ends up looking something like this:

* "Jewish" parties could hold their noses and form a united (albeit extraordinarily fragile) coalition against "Palestinian" parties.

* "religious" Jewish parties could generally prevail as a plurality against "everyone else", as long as "everyone else" didn't have some single issue uniting them... a single issue that would basically never, ever happen, because it's hard enough for Israeli parties to agree about anything in the first place. When push came to shove, and it became "religious Jews" vs "everyone else", inevitably a few secular-leaning Jewish parties would side with the religious ones and give them their way.

However... if you add millions of EXILED Palestinians to the equation, the whole neat, orderly balance of power gets fucked. Former exiles would agitate against their "heretic" and "sellout" neighbors, and would shift the balance of power enough in the Knesset to throw a monkey wrench into the delicate power-balance outlined above. Furthermore, if it DID go to a vote among Palestinians, most present-day West Bank Palestinians wouldn't vote for any option that encouraged exiles to return, because it would dilute their own status quo that many have carved out for themselves. The Palestinians who left (or were expelled) were generally the most polarized and politicized. The ones who remained (or were allowed to remain) in the West Bank and prospered were the ones most eager TO bury the hatchet and prosper. If exiled Palestinians returned in large numbers, THOSE Palestinians would be the first to be on the receiving end of the returnees' wrath as perceived "sellouts".

Ultimately, Israelis have to play the long game... wait until the majority of bitter, angry exiled Palestinians have died off & their kids have established new lives elsewhere. Every year, the number of exiled Palestinians declines (death from old age, assimilation, etc), and the number of religious Jews slightly increases (due to higher birthrate). Eventually (possibly, but probably not now), the numbers will sufficiently fall into equilibrium long enough to entertain a "one state" solution involving union between the West Bank and Israel. But in any case, Gaza is likely to remain an insurmountable problem for the foreseeable future.

Bad.

R104 Not that I'm looking to start an argument, but who are these exiled Palestinians? You suggest there exists a " Palestinian Diaspora" on par with the Jews... I don't really like what naturally comes to mind, but it most certainly is "Johnny come lately".... Syria, Egypt, and Jordan, and many other countries did refuse mass Palestinian migration, due in part to Palestinians en masse rejecting Israeli citizenship...

I'm trying to be fair here, but I do not see the two factions as having the same history, and I'm eager to learn where PRESENTLY exactly do these Palestinians who wish for their own sort of Aliyah reside.

The Hubris of the idea that they 'will let them join Israel'. The occupiers need to leave.

Bad. End of thread.

Bump

Most people who are strongly opinionated either way, will probably not even be willing to read, but an interesting and unbiased "go to" is the French-Canadian (and Christian) Dr. Jacques Gauthier, an International Law and human rights expert.

Dr. Gauthier explains exactly how legal precedent for "Title" to land being in Israel's favour, regardless of any religious, or aspirational thinking. Nothing he uses in his defence comes from Torah. He is a rigorous legal scholar, and cites The Conference of San Remo, (25 April 1920) which was to decide the former territories of the Ottoman (Turkish) Empire. These mandates were made and ratified by the League of Nations. These were the Allied Supreme Council, AKA "The Victors".... It has been agreed upon since WWI that territories disputed or otherwise, were carved up and agreed by such victors. It has historical and legal precedent.

At this time, "Palestine" or "Palistinian" territory was not considered a sovereign country, and no similar claims as in the case of Jordan, Lebanon, etc were made.... Decisions were made to recognise provisional independence of Syria, and Mesopotamia, yet "Palestine" was included as a section of Ottoman Administrative Districts, Mutasarrifate, and Jerusalem. Sanjak of Akka, and Nablus. Provisions to create Mandate Palestine as a Jewish homeland was agreed to with Turkey, and this Draft Peace Agreement was signed and became The Treaty of Sèvres (1920)

This territory, was NEVER stolen from anyone. There are land deeds and purchase agreements which have been studied ever since. Britain was allocated Iraq (formerly part of Mesopotamia) as well as the "Mandate for Palestine", whilst France received exclusive control of Syria, including present day Lebanon. Under the Balfour Declaration, there was no provision made for any independent country to be known as "Palestine".

This ought to settle the issue here from a legal title to the land of Israel. That title being legitimate however, IMHO, does not justify annexation of the entire West Bank, or illegal settlements in "occupied territories" or Gaza, as these were not included in the original maps at the time for the area formerly known as British Mandate Palestine, to become Israel.

We must begin at a fair point, in recognition of what is legal about Israel, before many of us here can comfortably concede what is ILLEGAL about the situation.

What bullshit you spewe R110.

'Historical and legal precedent' would still have the Soviets in Berlin.

R110 that's an excellent summary. Although Israel has only existed as a country since 1948 there have been Jewish people living there since before 1850 when it was still part of the Ottoman Empire, they started trickling back into the region after having been largely driven out firstly by Christians and then by Islam in the Middle Ages

R112 it is one thing for them to live there, it is something else entirely when they take over the government and murder the natives and yes I am aware that the US was founded in the murder of the natives and that Australia did this as well. 3 wrongs do not make a right. Zionism is racism.

Cheers R112. Yes, there are certainly other historical arguments to be sure.

Palestine neither exists as a written word, nor a Kingdom until [italic] Histories of Herodotus [/italic] is composed in the Fifth Century BCE. It referred to a small portion of Southern Canaan.... and a minority of her inhabitants were historically and ethnically the Phoenicians, not Arabs. Many of us also know this minority of Old Canaan as the Philistines.

The Philistines are though to have migrated into the area C. 1276 BCE (Late Bronze Age)

Widespread use of the name or term became cemented after The Bar-Kochba Revolt (132-136 BCE) after Roman Emperor Hadrian changed the name of the area to "Syria-Palaestina" This cementing of name change was a very slow gradual process eventually becoming used to denote all of Canaan on maps.

Genetic studies prove the similarities or affinities between the modern day Lebanese and the ancient Canaanite-Phoenecians, not the majority of Arabs who refer to themselves as Palestinians.

R111 I'm sorry you do not like the presentation of historical fact, but there you have it. You must be going on some other occult account of history. No one says Palestinians have no right to reside there, or Jerusalem, in point of fact all the international agreements and declarations specifically state that the Arabs living in the land shall have all the same rights as the Jews, and discussion of title of Israel and Jerusalem do not necessarily preclude or omit the Palestinians from the land.

R113 Zionism is not racism. You probably haven't even studied the concept with any real intellectual rigour. If you're merely referring to the belief in a Jewish homeland, as Nineteenth Century Zionism began, you would understand the error in your ways of arriving at such a conclusion. Have you studied Herzl?

Some of the policies and behaviour of the Israeli government is indeed unfair to Arabs living there. this prejudice and occupation can most certainly be labelled as racism, but that does not logically follow that Zionism in itself is racist.

One people were still there first, and I'm sorry to say it wasn't the present-day Palestinians.

Boy a lot of revisionist shit is happening on here now. To get back to your question OP BAD, very bad.

R11 Had the international community after WWI, agreed in 1920 to "Soviets" in Berlin, (yet they were still known as "Russian Empire" then: Soviet Union would have taken two more years, as it wasn't founded until 30 December 1922) as a Mandate for seperate statehood, AND if such an agreement had entailed the return of an oppressed international community of German-Expat minorities who happened to be exiled in your "Soviet" territory, AND the signatories of any such declaration agreed, (recognised by the League of Nations) then yes that would be law, and legally binding.

Russians or the former Soviet Union have no historical presence in the land of Germany, and not even a minority of Russian people have ever hailed from the region ethnically, culturally, linguistically, or anything historically.

Back to the drawing board for you. You win the prize for the most cockamamie distant analogy. Your words betray your utter lack of knowledge regarding world changing events of the 20th Century.

In the case for Israel, these historical decisions and international agreements (which were all properly ratified) are binding settled law. "Stare Decisis" is the Latin term which refers to such precedent.

^ meant for R111

R114: Fascinating. Thank you for this.

R115 What revisionism specifically? Can you name the founding or existence of a "Kingdom of Palestine" pre-dating 1020 BCE for The United Kingdom of Israel? After the split to Israel and Judah, this country, state, or independent nation carried on until 740 BCE, until the Assyrians conquered Israel. Again, in 1099, history yet again saw the rise of "The Kingdom of Jerusalem" by the Crusaders... Its official religion being Roman Catholicism.... Again, not Palestine, not Arab, and not officially Muslim.

I'm missing the Kings and leaders of Palestine in my library. The name revers to a region or territory, never an independent nation. The province of Judea had become joined with a province of Syria, and was subsequently renamed Syria-Palaestina, yet was still under Roman Rule. Palestinian territory was always ruled by other great empires, or dominated by others. THAT is the history of "Palestine".

Palestine was always either a feudal state controlled by others, a colony, or under the auspices of the Turks, during the Ottoman Empire. (400 years: 1516-1917).

Other previous rulers in control of this territory were Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Romans, Greeks, other nearby Arab states, Fatamids, Seljuks, Crusaders, Egyptians, Mamelukes, and Jews.

Palestinian is not a seperate or unique ethnicity particular to the region either.

Cheers R118

Israelis haven't strictly "stolen" land in the most technical legal sense, but they've definitely played dirty & did plenty of things that might have been lawful on paper, but would NEVER pass even a casual "smell" test.

Some of Israel's common tactics:

1. Deny building permits to Palestinians. In the entirety of East Jerusalem, something like 2,000 Palestinian building permits were approved over the span of DECADES, while the overwhelming majority were refused (often, for vague reasons, or no stated reason at all), or were never formally refused OR approved & were simply "lost". Eventually, the Palestinians gave up, and built additions/buildings/etc without them. The Israeli authorities eventually catch them, hit them with daily fines, and often go in, demolish it, then tack on an even bigger lien for the demolition costs until the liens. They then find an excuse to take the property by Eminent Domain, and ultimately give the family nothing because the assessed fair market value is less than the liens they've piled on over the years.

2. Make it physically impossible for Palestinians to REACH their property (esp. farmland), then use a law that allows the government to classify those lands as "abandoned" & take them.

3. Some combination of 1 and 2, but squeezing the owners until they're impoverished and either can't afford to pay the property taxes for land they aren't allowed to use, or finally decide they're basically burning good money paying taxes on land they'll never be allowed to use. Tax lien, lien sale, Israeli buyer, done!

Strictly speaking, the actions of the Israelis are "lawful"... but almost nobody would seriously argue that they're "fair". By any objective standard, the deck gets hopelessly stacked against the Palestinians, then the Palestinians get blamed for being taken advantage of. How would most of US react if we owned a farm, the government built a 50 mile wall that put our house on one side & our farmland on the other, then told us we had to a) actively farm the other side to avoid forfeiting the land, b) couldn't get a building permit to build a new house on the other side of the wall, because THAT land was zoned for "agriculture" and not "residential", c) spend 2-4 hours traveling each way to get from one side of the wall to the other, along a route with multiple checkpoints (any of which could refuse permission to pass, for any reason... or no reason at all)? Or if the roof were damaged by a shootout involving the military and a neighbor, then the city refused to issue a building permit to repair that roof damage, then turned around and fined you for repairing it without a permit that you never would have been allowed to get in the first place?

I know a few Israelis. Without exception, they all hate the status quo and feel bad about it... but nobody has any idea how to dig themselves out of the problem in a way that won't ultimately make matters worse. And every time someone towards the middle of Israel's political spectrum comes up with an idea that might partially untangle the mess, the extremists at both ends gang up on them, tear them apart, then resume going after each other.

OP, American born Jew, pray tell do this be you?

R120 No arguments there. I wasn't making an argument that everything was fair. I simply stated once we can agree on what IS legal, then some of us can begin heading into the issues you bring up. Aside from the matter that all of Jerusalem being within the boundaries of the original area, there are definitely things which should happen to "dig themselves out" as you say on the part of Israelis.

Israel must realise though many Palestinians do not acknowledge any legitimate "Israel" and still falsely cling to the narrative they were there first, or Ashkenazi aren't real "original" Jews, or that they were an independent and separate people , they're not going anywhere and need to be incorporated fully as the charter for the territory mandated that they be. Many left rather than continue their lives in Israel. The population who reside there now need to know that they have a life within Israel, if they want one.

Land which was taken during and after the Six Day War needs to be incorporated into a Palestinian state. The same for West Bank territory formerly known as "Transjordan" which was seized after the Arab-Israeli War of 1948-1949. As the original plan did not bar Jews from outside Israel, it also never called for evicting non-Jews. Settlements need to stop sprawling in disputed territories, yet it seems impractical to expect Jews to leave, and give up their homes. Perhaps they can become Jewish Palestinians? It is equally impractical and unacceptable to request ANY non-Jews to resettle, as that wasn't part of the original agreements.

I'm no policy wonk or expert, but I find these concessions necessary and fair to move forward toward peace. I also think everything offered up thus far has been too little too late.

In a totally sane & rational world, NEITHER "Israel" NOR "Palestine" would exist as distinct nations. There would just be a single country there with a name like, "The Confederation of Israel and Palestine" (freely referred to as both "Israel" and "Palestine", the same way English-speakers call the nation adjacent to Germany and Belgium either "The Netherlands" or "Holland", depending on their mood). It would have an officially-secular federal government whose scope was limited to things like building and maintaining infrastructure, border security, running the military, etc.

Below the (con)feder(ation)al government, you'd have smaller divisions ranging from a largely-secular "Jerusalem Capital District" and "Tel Aviv Metro Area" to non-contiguous aggregations of Haredi settlements that were practically local theocracies run with an iron fist by their respective Rebbes. The general rule being, "you can be as religious as you like... as long as you're far enough away from your neighbors to not excessively annoy them".

Jerusalem would have an official "Religious Antiquities Zone", more or less run like an open-air holy theme park for tourists.

The country's official languages would be English, Arabic, and Hebrew. English would be the language of school, government, and commerce. The government would be required to furnish and accept documents written in Hebrew and/or Arabic, but Israeli-Palestinian kids would only really learn Hebrew or Arabic if they were taught it as part of their religious education (if they had any), or if they decided to study them as foreign languages (or, if they grew up studying them in religious schools, as an easy 'A') in high school. This would marginalize the influence and power of the hardcore-religious zionists AND "socially distance" the Palestinians themselves from other Arabs. Over time, Palestinians would look down on Jordanians, Syrians, and Egyptians (especially the religious ones) the same way teenagers from Manhattan look down on pretty much everyone who isn't from Manhattan, and secular Israelis would roll their eyes and groan every time some Haredi went on TV & made an ass of himself bitching about something nobody cared about besides other Haredi. They'd probably even come up with a slang name for "people who live on rural religious settlements" that translates into "redneck".

Islam would be everywhere (along with Judaism)... but it would be the overwhelmingly secular kind that used to be dominant in places like Cairo, Baghdad, Damascus, and Tehran in the 1960s. The kind that influences which holidays they made a big deal celebrating, and which building they went to for weddings and funerals, but was largely indistinguishable in daily practice from Judaism OR Christianity. Basically, "Be good, don't steal, don't kill people, and don't embarrass your kids by getting caught cheating on your wife". You'd go Jericho Mills (a 3 million square foot outlet mall off an exit on the 12 lane freeway around the city) for Eid al Fitr & see decorations everywhere. You'd get in the car, drive 15 miles to AviParc Fashion Square hoping to find whatever it was that the store at Jericho Mills was sold out of, and be slightly weirded out by the fact that it looks kind of like Aventura Mall (in Miami) at Christmas by comparison (real-life example: penguins putting blue & white stars on a gold-colored abstract object that vaguely resembles a tree from some alien planet).

Israel-Palestine's biggest problem would be dealing with illegal aliens from neighboring countries constantly trying to sneak in.

How long can a country survive surrounded by larger enemies? A century, two, three?

R123 I find ideas like your post truly inspiring, though we both know they want separate lands, or nations. More individuals need to think outside the box to be sure. In your fantasy utopia, you overlooked one item as regards their trilingual aspirations... What about Aramaic!

It is a tongue both Arab and Jews have known, and could be used as a bridge. A metaphorical new [italic] "Mamaloshen" [/italic] for Israeli Jews. Other than the Kaddish, most Jews probably are somewhat unfamiliar with the language, yet it is key shared things such as this which ought to be promoted. This, and especially how similar Palestinians are to Jews ethnically when modern genetics are taken into account.

r125, the main rationale for English over Aramaic is the belief that if you're going to get people to adopt a new language, you might as well pick one that's internationally useful. Most of Israel's first Jewish settlers were British, and Palestine itself was a British mandate.

AFAIK, English actually *was* Israel's de-facto first language. The first Zionists made a big deal of resurrecting Hebrew as a modern language, but nobody there really *used* it until large numbers of Yiddish-speaking Jews from Eastern Europe showed up & shamed them into taking Hebrew seriously as a modern language (basically, codifying the rules of Yiddish, giving English loanwords Hebrew spellings, etc).

But, yeah... if you have two languages that are mutually-unacceptable for political reasons, and a de-facto "world" language like English that's widely used anyway, the most sensible option is to just take it as the easy option.

There are no "simple questions" in the Middle East.

Israel is mostly good.

Israel is mostly bad.

Good or Bad? What are you, five years old and retarded?

Fuck off, OP.