Why cast actors who can’t sing in a musical??

Ryan Gosling's character should have been black. That's the real issue.

I never understood that myself.

R1 why should he have been black? Because he loves jazz?? That’s rather racist. Pretty sure jazz is for everybody. The real issue is that he has zero singing chops.

He barely even tried to sing. But Emma Stone is only passable as a singer.

Hollywood has a long history of casting stars who can't or can barely sing in musicals: Clint Eastwood and Lee Marvin in Paint Your Wagon, Peter O'Toole and Sophia Loren in Man Of La Mancha, most everyone except Fergie in Nine, Cybill Shepherd and Burt Reynolds in At Long Last Love, and too many more.

Les Mis:

Russell Crowe

Amanda Seyfried

Hairspray:

Amanda Bynes

Pierce Brosnan in MAMMA MIA.

Madonna in EVITA.

Natalie Wood in...

Rita.

Maxwell Caulfied in GREASE 2.

Casting non-singers in musicals is a trend that needs to stop. A singer who's only an adequate actor makes for a better movie in the end. Think Olivia Newton-John in Grease and Whitney Houston in The Bodyguard. You could probably add Streisand, Garland, Bette Midler, Liza, Cher and Doris Day to that list.

I can't get through musicals with actors who can't sing, like Chicago, La La Land, Into the Wood, Cats, etc.

R3 Most Jazz fans, I have met, are pretentious white guys, unless it is a really old black guy.

I wouldn't have a problem with non singers being cast in musicals, if they would go back to dubbing their performances.

R5 oh mah gawd!!! Russell Crowe was the absolute worst. I saw Les Mis in the theatre and my friends and I could not stop giggling. He was so bad! It felt like a joke.

Emma Watson in Beauty and the Beast. She was mostly auto tuned. Why not just cast an actress who has a voice. She sounded like she was on Xanax.

R5 Actually, I found Amanda Seyfried and Eddie Redmayne singing at very close range to each other in Les Mis to be as sweet and lovely as it was intended to be, and I am a very cynical, hard to please person when it comes to romantic scenes. Eddie's voice was the best thing about that movie. And as bad as Russell Crowe was, he was still better than corny Hugh Jackman.

OP, I'm kind of torn. I really love Gosling, and loved both their performances in the movie. I thought they were passable singers, and it didn't bother so much while watching in a theater. I think the director liked the fact they weren't professional singer/dancers to add realism to the fantasy, (if that makes any sense).

However, listening to the soundtrack separately, is a different story. Their somewhat tuneless phrasing is glaring and severely detracts from the pleasure of listening. It also highlights how weak the songs, on their own, actually are.

I still love watching the movie, though.

Marlon Brando in Guys & Dolls. His agent never should have let it happen.

What's so weird is that Crowe's singing was so awful, yet he thinks of himself as a singer.

Richard Gere's singing voice was not at all a problem for me in Chicago, but his inability to dance was obvious. I also wasn't hugely bothered by Ryan Gosling's voice--it was not great, but it was not an "oh my ears" situation like Russell Crowe's.

The biggest problem is that they keep letting that idiot Tom Hooper direct musicals, and he keeps ruining them with his stupid gimmicky ideas, like the pointless "captured in one take" approach to Les Miserables. (How did he POSSIBLY think that was going to make a better musical?) My hope is that the humiliating failure of Cats means he will not be allowed to ruin more musicals.

Emma Stone's singing in La-La land was absolutely fine for a movie musical. Anyone complaining there is being too picky.

[quote] He isn’t even hot to make up for it.

I don't think many people would agree with you there.

20 replies and no one has mentioned one of the worst examples of all time? MAMMA MIA Just awful!

Glenn Close

r21 I beg to differ.

R23 agreed. That film exposed me to stinkier shit than my actual cat’s litter box has.

For anyone who has never seen French & Saunders' hilarious spoof...

Lucy in Mame

[Quote] 20 replies and no one has mentioned one of the worst examples of all time? MAMMA MIA Just awful!

It was mentioned at r6, you fat whore.

OP - It's one thing to cast big stars who can sing passably, (like Gosling and Stone), or cast big stars and have them dubbed, (like Natalie Wood, Audrey Hepburn), but why on earth cast a nobody? Like Didi Conn in You Light Up My Life?

Alec Baldwin in Rock of Ages was particularly butt clenching.

[quote] Eddie's voice was the best thing about that movie.

Oh god no! He sounded like a Muppet! And Seyfried’s vibrato was nails on a chalkboard.

R6 let's add Ms. Meryl to that list as well. I actually cringed when she sang. Overall, I really don't understand the popularity of Mamma Mia at all! I hated the movie, Broadway show.

R31 It is the music, no matter how one feels about the show/movie, Abba's music just makes you feel happy and cheerful and is great to sing along to.

Just about everybody in Mamma Mia.

I'm STILL bitter that Audrey got cast in My Fair Lady over Julie. I love Audrey, and she can sing, lightly. But in no way can she even come close to Julie in the role. I hate all those dubbed movies in the 50's and 60's the most. At least in (most) modern films you get the actual voice, auto tuned to hell.

Pierce Brosnan in Mamma Mia is the clear winner

You hate Deborah Kerr in THE KING AND I?!

Kidman - Moulin Rouge

Madonna doesn't count because she's not an actress. She's not a singer either, but that's besides the point.

Annette Funicello and Shirley Temple in EVERYTHING. I don’t dislike them as personas, but neither one of them ever should have attempted singing.

I never miss a Liv Ullmann musical.

Let's not forget Liz Taylor, who couldn't even handle the three note range of the Desiree Armfeldt character in the movie version of "A Little Night Music".

Isn't (breath) it (breath) ri(breath)ch? Arew(breath)e (breath) a (breath) p(breath)air?

That Redgrave woman in Camelot

Julie, that Redgrave woman looked sensual and sexy and utterly believable as someone whom Lancelot would lust after. Face it dear, you were never sexy. Except to Carol Burnett.

Antonio Banderas in Evita. Terrible singing.

Casted.

R44, really? Of all examples to pick. Banderas has a lovely singing voice. After EVITA he did NINE on Broadway. He sounded great in it, and got much better reviews for his singing than Raul Julia did in the original. And singing on Broadway can't be faked through auto-tune, multiple takes, etc. like it can in the movies. As for the other examples here, I think there's a weird theory that when non-singers sing in musical films, they sound more "real" than trained singers. Though why you should need someone's singing to sound more "real" in a highly stylized movie like LA LA LAND is beyond me. That said, seems to me I recall that Ryan Gosling's character is supposed to be more a jazz musician than primarily a singer, and there are a lot of jazz guys who sing like that.

[quote]A singer who's only an adequate actor makes for a better movie in the end. Think Olivia Newton-John in Grease and Whitney Houston in The Bodyguard. You could probably add Streisand, Garland, Bette Midler, Liza, Cher and Doris Day to that list.

Umm, all of those people you named in your last sentence are or were far better than "only adequate" as actors.

[quote]Emma Watson in Beauty and the Beast. She was mostly auto tuned.

Oh jeez, even with auto-tuning, I couldn't make it past her first number in that movie, because the quality and timbre of the voice is so ugly.

[quote]I'm STILL bitter that Audrey got cast in My Fair Lady over Julie. I love Audrey, and she can sing, lightly. But in no way can she even come close to Julie in the role.

You MUST know that 90 percent of Audrey's singing in that movie was dubbed by Marni Nixon, but the way you wrote your post, it sounds like you don't....

R25, thanks, I remember that French and Saunders spoof of MAMMA MIA! I love how they skewered that idiot director, who co-created the stage show and literally wouldn't sell the film rights unless she was signed to direct the movie as well. Of course, it made a ton of money, thanks to the wretched taste of a dumbed-down public.

OP, I'm totally with you on this. It infuriates me when they cast people who can't fucking sing in a goddam MUSICAL. Makes my blood boil.

If you are going to cast non-singers in musicals, then for the love of God at least dub them with somebody who can sing.

If your blood is boiling over a musical, there is something wrong with you

And getting mad over a "dumbed-down" public enjoying an escapist musical is pretty silly, as if there haven't always been films that were mindless entertainment

Yes R46. I thought he sounded terrible. But it’s just an opinion. Overdone and too gravelly. Maybe he has a lovely singing voice but it wasn’t showcased in Evita.

A plausible explanation, if Banderas does have a good voice, is that they didn’t want him to upstage Madonna

I never could stand Marni Nixon's cheery, impersonal voice, especially in MY FAIR LADY. Not that having Hepburn sing would have been better, but there's no similarity between Nixon's voice and Hepburn. It's so damn artificial even if it's in tune. I will say that KING & I is the least annoying because Kerr and Nixon worked closely together doing the songs so there's a more natural segue between speaking and singing.

The singers MGM used to dub the likes of Cyd Charisse were better.

The biggest problem is that most trained singer/actors aren't stars so they can't get cast in movies, so we get stuck with wannabes like Zellwegger, Gosling, Stone, Day-Lewis, and the like.

The best singing voice in LES MIS was Aaron Tveit by far. Unfortunately, he's only a semi-passable actor.

I saw both Broadway productions of NINE and Banderas sang far better than Raul Julia, who tended to bark the songs rather than sing them.

Come to think of it, the revival with Banderas was a much better, warmer production. The Tommy Tune staging was dazzling to look at but cold as ice.

Marni Nixon ruins MFL for me. The voice is thin, nasal, and highly unappealing, especially when one is used to the Julie Andrews stage recordings of the score. Huge misfire not to have Andrew play the role, but that's for another thread. Nixon is passable in The King and I but that was a decade earlier when her voice sounded more youthful. Nixon also ruins West Side Story. Horrible, screeching singing that beautiful score.

R53 I think I’d actually prefer mediocre acting with terrific vocals, over terrific acting with crap vocals. In a musical and he singing tells most of the story. Bad singers kill my boner.

Stupid typos. In a musical the songs are telling most of the story. That’s why I would rather have strong vocals over acting if a sacrifice has to be made.

Only on the datalounge does Marni Nixon gave a bad voice. They hired her to dub those singers for a reason

They hired her because studio heads are ignorant.

She was admired by a lot of people, not just "studio heads"

I actually really liked Banderas in Evita. He brought the right amount of energy to the role. I thought Madonna, Banderas and Jonathan Pryce all sounded great.

I prefer the sequel to Mamma Mia. I love Meryl but keeping her out of the sequel for the most part actually benefitted the film. She is fine singing in a supporting role but not a leading role. Lily James has a lovely voice.

None of the singing in Chicago is particularly spectacular but I thought both Renee and CZJ were fantastic in their roles. I still would have loved to have seen Madonna or Toni Collette in Chicago as both were close to being cast.

Don’t forget the animated features. Important Disney films had to split the work because the speaking actor couldn’t sing.

R62 that’s definitely better than allowing Matthew Broderick to sing in the Lion King. Just let him do the talking and get a real singer to do the songs. It’s tricker for live action, though. Some actors probably don’t want to be dubbed.

Julie Andrews was a barely serviceable actress, and yet I can't imagine The Sound of Music or Mary Puppins without her. Same with Streisand in Funny Girl and Hello Dolly, or ONJ in Grease.

The bottom line: A charismatic singer with screen presence will always win out over a great actress who can barely sing.

It's a good thing that Glenn Close will never play Norma Desmond in Sunset Boulevard on the big screen.

[quote] You MUST know that 90 percent of Audrey's singing in that movie was dubbed by Marni Nixon, but the way you wrote your post, it sounds like you don't....

I think you're misreading his post. I think he means that Audrey Hepburn COULD sing a bit--and she in fact did all her own charming singing in "Funny Face" (in her light and scratchy voice). She absolutely loved to sing, and was thrilled when she got the part of Eliza Doolittle, and was heartbroken to hear that they dubbed in Marni Nixon's voice for most of the songs. she should have known, though, that her voice would never have been able to put over songs like "I Could Have Danced All Night."

Julie Andrews is more than a "barely serviceable actress." She has an Oscar and at least 3 nominations.

Both of the sound like shit in La La Land. But they sing better than they dance! GAH! The dancing was awful.

[quote] I thought he sounded terrible. But it’s just an opinion. Overdone and too gravelly. Maybe he has a lovely singing voice but it wasn’t showcased in Evita.

You're entitled to your opinion of Banderas's singing, but the fact that you describe his voice as "gravelly" when it's nothing of the kind tells me that you're not hearing what everyone else hears. See and hear clip at the link attached, if you care to.

[quote]Only on the datalounge does Marni Nixon have a bad voice. They hired her to dub those singers for a reason

Thank you. Nixon herself was unhappy with how she sounded in the MY FAIR LADY songs, because she didn't have much prep time, and the keys were chosen with an eye towards letting Hepburn try to sing most of them, rather than the keys that were best for Nixon. Her work in THE KING AND I is exemplary, and her voice sounds beautiful in that. And whatever flaws there may be in her performance of the songs in WEST SIDE STORY because of the Puerto Rican ccent (she had to try to ape Wood's not-quite-right accent), the sound of her voice is beautiful there as well, and not remotely "screechy." P.S. Nixon had worked with Leonard Bernsein prior to dubbing WEST SIDE STORY, and he loved her voice.

They cast people in movies who can't act, so why not.

I totally disagree r11. A movie musical isn't American Idol. The most important thing is to have an actor who can tell the story the best, not who can sing like Jennifer Hudson. If the actor can do both, great. But they're telling a story not competing to see who can blow out the place like those mostly ridiculous singing competition shows.

Better than casting dancers that can't act. See "Chorus Line: The Movie".

I agree with you r71, but the acting was just one bad element of that film. The poorly revised script, bad new songs, bad sound editing and bad direction all contributed to make the movie version of A Chorus Line one of the worst translations of a Broadway musical to film. It was a mess because Michael Bennet had sold his rights to the film entirely in order to get himself a deal in Hollywood, which didn't work out in the end. The original creative team had nothing to do with the film, and the director didn't understand the tone of the piece. I was rehearsing a World Tour of the show when the film came out and the director, Baayork Lee, forbade any of us from watching it until we'd opened the show, so we didn't pick up any of the awful things from the actors in the film.

^^^ I forgot to mention that the film 'Every Little Step' is actually closer to the idea that Michael Bennett had for a film version of ACL and is much more interesting than the film. Ryan Murphy is developing a serialized version of the show. Let's hope it restores some of the original magic of the piece.

Gerard Butler’s ‘singing,’ in the movie version of POTO was embarrassing.

Whitney Houston in the Bodyguard. She was the worst singer if all time. She should at least have tried to learn how to sing in the film

By the way, since no one is right about this. Ryan Gosling totally sings. He was a child singer, and was in the New Mickey Mouse Club alongside Justin Timberlake, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera. It wasn't his fault that La La Land didn't really work out well.

I think I'd rather have a well acted and semi-competently sung performance than a beautiful vocal with zero feeling. Dubbing usually just gives me a headache and pulls me right out of the moment. It rarely ever sounds natural unless you only dub certain money notes, which I wouldn't be opposed to. Isn't that the rumor going around about Streep's vocals in Into the Woods. She'd been merely decent in Mamma Mia and, all of a sudden, she was belting out some really powerful notes. Didn't they say Donna Murphy might have sweetened her performance a bit?

No. Mamma did it herself.

I'm a big fan of Audrey in MFL but admit Nixon who did so well with King and WSS is badly matched to her. I can't figure out why Alan Jay Lerner and Andre Previn allowed it to be so poorly done. The film was filmed in '63 so had almost a year of post production. Poppins was also done in '63 so Andrews couldn't have done both films. Unless Disney was willing to wait a year for her. Which means she couldn't have done Sound of Music. Who else could have done SOM? Elizabeth Taylor? Natalie Wood? Bette Davis?

[quote] Who else could have done SOM? Elizabeth Taylor? Natalie Wood? Bette Davis?

***ahem***

"When the LORD CLOSES a DOOR, SOMEWHERE He OPENS a WINDOW!!"

Every Little Step was a piece of shit. People keep believing that by simply doing what Bennett claimed he was going to do it will turn out brilliantly. Thankfully no one has tried Scandal.

Someone finally mentioned Gerard Butler in Phantom, who was nothing but an abomination. Could not understand his casting. He should have been the last person in the world considered for the role.

What about Sylvester Stallone with Dolly Parton in Rhinestone? I don’t think anybody could be worse than that. I have PTSD after watching it.

[quote]Someone finally mentioned Gerard Butler in Phantom, who was nothing but an abomination. Could not understand his casting. He should have been the last person in the world considered for the role.

The rumor, or the assumption, at the time was that Butler was cast as the Phantom just because Joel Schumacher, the diretor, was hot for him. On the one hand, hard to believe someone would be so miscast in the lead in a major motion picture for a reason like that, but on the other hand, what other possible explanation could there be? Butler was even less of a star then than he is now. Whatever the reason, it's hard to believe that Andrew Lloyd Webber allowed that casting, especially seeing as how he PRODUCED the movie!

And by the way, Patrick Wilson, another hot guy, was ALSO miscast in the movie, though for different reasons.

R83 And it is the movie that stalled Dolly's movie career until Steel Magnolias. Though, it does feature one of my favorite Dolly songs "Tennessee Homesick Blues."

[quote] It wasn't his fault that La La Land didn't really work out well.

But it won the Oscar!

[quote] ***ahem*** "When the LORD CLOSES a DOOR, SOMEWHERE He OPENS a WINDOW!!"

Reverend Mother: What is it, you cuntface?

[quote]Which means she couldn't have done Sound of Music. Who else could have done SOM?

Doris Day or Debbie Reynolds

[quote] Which means she couldn't have done Sound of Music. Who else could have done SOM?

"I'm shorry, shir! I could never ansher to a whishle! Whishles are for dogsh, and catsh, and other animalsh!"

R73 - this is from the IMDB trivia page....

"Although this film is classified as a documentary, Charlotte d'Amboise, one of the stars of the revival of A Chorus Line, told Playbill Magazine that several scenes in the film, including the ones in which she and Jessica Lee Goldyn get phone calls informing them that they have been chosen for the cast, were staged - recreated for the documentary cameras. d'Amboise said that when they filmed her pretending to receive the news that she'd been cast, there was actually no one on the other end of the phone line with her."

Marni Nixon's voice was too generic and boring. Devoid of any character or personality. She could have been replaced with any other generic singer with a similar range and no one could have told the difference.

She sounds bloody awful singing the Eliza Doolittle part in MFL.

I've been involved in musical theater for several decades. I've always felt that I's rather hear/watch an actor who sings more than a singer who acts. Just my opinion.

Ava Gardner singing Julie's songs in her own voice on the soundtrack album of "Showboat" sounds far better than the godawful generic studio singer they dubbed her with in the film itself. Garder wasn't particularly known as a singer, but her voice was adequate for Julie.

Three great stars of musicals were not good singers: Yul Brynner, Rex Harrison, Robert Preston. Yul and Rex also won Oscars recreating their famous stage roles on film.

Thank you, R91! I have always thought that Marni Nixon's singing for MY FAIR LADY is inadequate and unpleasant. There is never, ever, a shortage of lyric sopranos. They could have hired any one of a hundred young women in their singing prime and gotten a better result.

Nixon does a fine job with The King and I score, as well as with matching Deborah Kerr. But it stops there. Her voice fits a more mature woman, but not very young Eliza or Maria. Just not a good match.

[quote] Marni Nixon's voice was too generic and boring.

A lot of songs don’t need the Christina Aguilera approach to singing. Nixon’s performances were lovely and that’s what was needed.

"Lovely" is the last thing to associate with Eliza Doolittle. She's one tough piece of business who grew up poor but had brains and ambition. There's not point in the musical that calls for her to be "lovely."

Ryan Gosling began his career as a singer at age 12, so he can sing. He does have a somewhat limited voice, but he was just fine in La La Land.

A young Ryan Gosling on the Mickey Mouse Club with some other notable singers. Costumes, designed by Stevie Wonder, reflect either " Joseph...........Dreamcoat" or " Sophie's Choice, the Musical."

Reynolds is lipsyncing in that clip, is he not?

Number of actors who suit perfectly a film role that also have legitimate voices is limited. Has been that way for ages right through the grand era of Hollywood musicals.

Even when there is a legitimate voice it the instrument may no longer be able to cope with one or more certain numbers.

In her prime the great Peggy Wood could have nailed "Climb Every Mountain". But by time she filmed Sound of Music it was deemed best to have her dubbed, and that decision got no arguments from Ms. Wood herself.

One actress who had everything, looks, voice, acting chops was the wonderful Irene Dunne.

The original Bloody Mary was also dubbed by her London counterpart in the movie of SOUTH PACIFIC.

Leslie Caron's own voice in GiGi singing "The Night They Invented Champagne".

She was dubbed by Betty Wand in the released film, but the originals were kept and later released on CD and elsewhere.

Angela Lansbury was dubbed by Virginia Rees in film "The Harvey Girls", though probably not necessary as she had a perfectly fine instrument.

So why did studio insist? Suits felt that while yes, AL did have a fine singing voice it wasn't suitable for a barfly/saloon singer, so that was that.

[quote]Three great stars of musicals were not good singers: Yul Brynner, Rex Harrison, Robert Preston.

I would say they were all VERY good singers, they just didn't have great voices in terms of range and quality. But actually, I think all three of their voices were fine in that way as well, and they were all very musical.

[quote]I've been involved in musical theater for several decades. I've always felt that I's rather hear/watch an actor who sings more than a singer who acts. Just my opinion.

As always, I don't understand why people feel it necessary to make huge generalizations, because in this case, I think it largely depends on the type of show and the particular role. For Harold Hill or Henry Higgins, for example, you obviously want an actor who sings more than a singer who acts, but for Gaylord Ravenal in SHOW BOAT, quite the opposite.

[quote]I have always thought that Marni Nixon's singing for MY FAIR LADY is inadequate and unpleasant. There is never, ever, a shortage of lyric sopranos. They could have hired any one of a hundred young women in their singing prime and gotten a better result.

She was hired partly because she had experience and proven success at being able to approximate the inflections and timbre of the non-singers she dubbed for. She achieves this in some brief moments in MY FAIR LADY, notable the beginning of "I Could Have Danced All Night," where Hepburn and Nixon switch off for the first four lines (and then Nixon sings the rest of the song), but for the rest of the dubbing in that movie, Nixon had a lot working against her.

[quote]Nixon does a fine job with The King and I score, as well as with matching Deborah Kerr. But it stops there. Her voice fits a more mature woman, but not very young Eliza or Maria. Just not a good match.

Whatever the flaws in Nixon's dubbing of Maria in WEST SIDE STORY, I don't think she sounds too "mature" for the role. I think she still had a very youthful sound to her voice at that point, and I would say she retained that sound for many years. By the way, Nixon was only 30 when she recorded WSS, which is not that very old at all, though she was about eight years older than Natalie Wood

Contrary to popular belief Marilyn Monroe sang nearly entire number of "Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend".

Studio originally wanted Marni Nixon to dub entire song, but lady protested and told the suits that MM's voice was fine and more to point suited the role. In end studio relented to a degree; Ms. Nixon did the high notes "no, no, nos" at the beginning of the song and the phrase "these rocks don't lose their shape".

Actually have a cassette tape (remember those?) of MM's "greatest hits", and the woman did have a great voice.

[quote]Studio originally wanted Marni Nixon to dub entire song, but lady protested and told the suits that MM's voice was fine and more to point suited the role. In end studio relented to a degree; Ms. Nixon did the high notes "no, no, nos" at the beginning of the song and the phrase "these rocks don't lose their shape".

I have read that several places, but I'm sorry, "these rocks don't lose their shape" ABSOLUTELY sounds like Marilyn. Listen to the clip. Nixon at one point said that she sings those sopranoish notes for "are a girl's best friend" at the very end, but to me, THAT sounds like MM as well. The only section that clearly doesn't sound like Marilyn is the operatic coloratura "no's" at the beginning, so that must be Nixon.

Marni Nixon speaks about her ghosting work including doing Deborah Kerr and Marilyn Monroe.

OP, your query likely would be more along lines of why cast actors in "Hollywood" musicals if they cannot sing.

Broadway/musical theater long cast actors in roles even if they weren't the best dancer or singer. Suits simply worked around a certain actors defects by creating dance numbers or songs that they could handle.

Famous example of this is Stephen Sondheim's "Send In the Clowns which was written for Glynis Johns.

While perfect for the role of Desirée Armdfelt , Glynis Johns voice couldn't handle sustained or high notes. So SS wrote something that doesn't require either and fit well with capabilities of intended singer. Sad thing is the song has been covered to death mostly by singers who don't understand anything about it and try to turn it into something it isn't.

Glynis Johns and Len Cariou

Dame Judi Dench

The entire score of Wonderful Town was written to fit Roz Russell's three note voice. Comden and Greene did an excellent job considering how little time they had to write it and what they had to work with.

[quote]While perfect for the role of Desirée Armdfelt , Glynis Johns voice couldn't handle sustained or high notes.

Actually, it seems she did have a lovely sounding soprano extension. You can hear it very briefly on the NIGHT MUSIC cast album in her solo of "Send in the Clowns" and a little more in the duet reprise, which is in a higher key. Johns apparently told them she could sing the whole solo version in her head voice in a somewhat higher key, but Sondheim and Prince didn't want it to sound pretty, they wanted the song to sound like the emotional struggle it is.

Johns also displayed a fine belt voice in MARY POPPINS, so I guess she could both belt and sing soprano. The reason she sounds so uncomfortable (intentionally) in "Send in the Clowns"is that, in the key they chose, she's singing right around her break. To judge whether or not the right decision was made about that, you can watch and listen to Sally Ann Howes's performance of the song in a higher key and with a much more soprano-ish sound throughout.

When everything comes together at least on Broadway you get some fantastic musical numbers.

This is one of my favorite, "All The Things You Are" from musical Very Warm For May which sadly hasn't been done in ages IIRC.

You can clearly hear all four legitimate voice categories soaring above the chorus, the latter by the way are fantastic as well.

R114

Thank you for your post. Excellent points all way round.

Did Tammy Grimes ever end up playing Desiree after all?

Thank god Emma Stone ended up being cast over Emma Watson for the role of Mia! The right Emma got the part. Watson cannot sing. There is zero emotion in her vocals.

"the acting was just one bad element of that film." Yep, so many dumb mistakes -- like giving Christine that screechy voice but cutting her "I Could Never Sing" song so what's the point, putting Nicole Fosse and her giant breasts next to Val whose body everyone is ogling and she looks flat in comparison, the bizarre badly acted monologue about the day job (surely never in the original show), and the lost opportunity on the final moving monologue about the drag show (the poor actor was way out of his depth). And replacing one of the most popular songs with a new one that paled big time (along with a lackluster Cassie). We could keep going, like shooting fish in a barrel -- but I still watch it a lot.

Thanks for the tip on "Every Little Step" too, I will track it down. :)

[quote]In her prime the great Peggy Wood could have nailed "Climb Every Mountain". But by time she filmed Sound of Music it was deemed best to have her dubbed...

To the producers' credit their first choices were Jeanette MacDonald and Irene Dunne, who both declined.

They should have given it to French & Saunders instead of Attenborough.

[quote] The entire score of Wonderful Town was written to fit Roz Russell's three note voice. Comden and Greene did an excellent job considering how little time they had to write it and what they had to work with.

I agree. Sometimes even a very limited singer can pull off a great performance in a musical if the part was written with that performer's vocal limitations in mind.

One of my musical theatre guilty pleasures is Lauren Bacall in the cast recordings of "Applause" and "Woman of the Year". Although neither score is particularly great and Bacall has a foghorn-like quality to her singing voice like Russell does, I still find a peculiarly musical quality in the way Bacall delivers her songs.

Obviously the results aren't pretty when she stretches her voice beyond its abilities but for the most part the scores are very well-suited to her narrow range and contralto voice.

I don't think I'd actually like a legit, trained singer singing the Tess Harding role, to be honest. Bacall brings a certain sophistication and urbane tone to the songs that suits the role very well.

R120

In their prime both ladies could hit that final F-natural (F5) in Climb Every Mountain easily, but wonder if their instruments still could have pulled it off.

Karen Mason as Ruth Sherwood, with DL fave Becky Luker as her sister Eileen.

Since this thread sort of goes there, need an answer to a question that has been on my mind for some time now.

Just who exactly would be on any list of legitimate theater voices today? Not that it seems to matter because Broadway has long gone way of hiring Hollywood (or worse) television names and using technology to overcome any issues. But still wonder as to current actors with trained and capable legitimate voices.

Audra McDonald would be the prime example, I think, R125.

The great Sutton Foster!

R126

Has Audra McDonald given up her opera career? Know she has done plenty of musicals but cannot recall seeing her name at the MET or elsewhere recently.

[quote]The entire score of Wonderful Town was written to fit Roz Russell's three note voice. Comden and Greene did an excellent job considering how little time they had to write it and what they had to work with.

Comden and Greene didn't write the music.

Wasn't it Berlin?

r129

They didn't?

Never mind, see your point. Bernstein wrote the music, C&G did lyrics.

Wonderful Town with Roz!

Is there a story behind Edie Adams not repeating her stage role in the TV production?

"Ava Gardner singing Julie's songs in her own voice on the soundtrack album of "Showboat" sounds far better than the godawful generic studio singer they dubbed her with in the film itself. Garder wasn't particularly known as a singer, but her voice was adequate for Julie."

Ava didn't sound bad at all, but she was not a better singer than Annette Warren

Lala Land is available to watch for free on Youtube/movies. I could not manage two minutes of it.

Les Mis (2012) owns this thread

[quote]Did Tammy Grimes ever end up playing Desiree after all?

I don't think so, but as you may know, she eventually played Mme. Armfeldt at Williamstown, in 1994.

My bad, r129. Please forgive my eldergay memory for forgetting that Bernstein wrote the music. For some reason, I just never associate this musical with him.

Ryan Gosling sounds like a guy who has had a couple of drinks and decides to hit karaoke. Not quality enough for a musical film.

This is why I have no issue with keys being changed to suit performers. Even great singers have specific ranges and they're not going to be able to hit certain notes that others can even if they technically have the same vocal classification (some mezzo sopranos and tenors can sing higher notes than others or have a different quality to their voices). Sondheim has usually been good about doing this so that the right actor gets the part. Now, when they change the keys and they still sound like pure shit, that means you need to rethink that casting choice completely.

For example, they changed the keys for Russell in Gypsy so they'd be better suited to her voice, but she still could only semi-pleasantly sing the first part of "Rose's Turn" and "Mr. Goldstone." The rest of her performance was dubbed by Lisa Kirk. Maybe these days, you could have done more of a cut and paste job and mixed Kirk's notes with Russell's to make it more seamless. To me, this just points to her being completely miscast from the get go. If she couldn't even pull it off in more suitable keys, she shouldn't have been doing it anyway.

The should have paid Dolores Gray to dub Russell. Gray sang Marilyn Monroe's songs on the Decca album of "There's No Business Like Show Business."

Lisa Kirk, singing in "her" keys.

Who had the bigger and more important career in musicals? Lisa Kirk, with a voice? Or Roz Russell with no voice at all?

There's your answer. Whatever "it" is, that compelling thing that can't be taught, Lisa Kirk never had much of it. It's good to have. It's especially good to have on the marquee and at the box office.

r144 probably cast Mario Lopez in A CHORUS LINE.

The reason you can't think of any musical comedy stars in movies is precisely because they keep casting actors who can't sing in musicals, so we have no MGM situation where stars are bred to be musical comedy stars, such as Judy Garland and June Allyson, or great dancers such as Kelly, Astaire, and Ann Miller. It's really a sad situation. Ruins musicals for me when the singing is bad. There's more to singing than just carrying a tune. Great singers act through their voices and this is exactly what people who can't sing cannot do.

I honestly don’t think Ryan Gosling is hot enough to make up for the lack of musical talent either. Don’t get me wrong, he is cute, but if you are hiring based mostly on sex appeal it should have been a more attractive actor.

[quote] The reason you can't think of any musical comedy stars in movies is precisely because they keep casting actors who can't sing in musicals, so we have no MGM situation where stars are bred to be musical comedy stars....

You made that up out of thin air. It is entirely untethered from some very important film industry and social history. That casting preference you do not like is not the reason "we have no MGM situation where stars are bred to be musical comedy stars."

First, go read United States v. Paramount Pictures, Inc., 334 U.S. 131 (1948). Second, think hard about the problems suffered by a weakened commercial film industry in America by the competition created as television grew and expanded. The financial model for the Hollywood star system, MGM and anything like it collapsed 65 years ago.

[quote] Broadway/musical theater long cast actors in roles even if they weren't the best dancer or singer. Suits simply worked around a certain actors defects by creating dance numbers or songs that they could handle.

[quote] Famous example of this is Stephen Sondheim's "Send In the Clowns which was written for Glynis Johns.

Another is Cy Coleman's "Hey Look Me Over," which was written for Lucille Ball's extremely limited range.

Judy Holliday insisted she only had four notes in her voice (which is what Roz Russell said about her voice when they asked her to do "Wonderful Town!") when they asked her to do "Bells Are Ringing," but she actually has a much, much better voice than Russell's--it has an unusual plangent quality, but it's very powerful. I have never heard anyone put over the song "I'm Going Back" from that show--one of the greatest eleven o'clock numbers ever written--as beautifully as she does. She brought down the house every night.

Sometimes act but can't sing stars work if the singing is dubbed and sounds good. I'd rather they dub Pierce Brosnan in Mamma Mia and Russell Crowe in Les Miserables than listen to whatever the hell that was that they were doing because it certainly ain't singin'

Sadly, they couldn't get away with dubbing stars nowadays. Zac Efron was dubbed in the first High School musical but he wasn't a star then.

R150 YES. Russell Crowe was distractingly bad. Took me right out of the movie.

[quote] Another is Cy Coleman's "Hey Look Me Over," which was written for Lucille Ball's extremely limited range.

I heard at one point that Lucille Ball was offered Wildcat or The Unsinkable Molly Brown. If Ball had taken Molly Brown would Tammy Grimes have done Wildcat?

I did them both! (In the regions...)

[quote] The reason you can't think of any musical comedy stars in movies is precisely because they keep casting actors who can't sing in musicals, so we have no MGM situation where stars are bred to be musical comedy stars....

That's just not true: among the people who have been cast in movie musicals of the last 20 years who are fine singers include Anna Kendrick, Jennifer Hudson, James Marsden, Nikki Blonsky, Catherine Zeta-Jones, James Corden (unlikable, perhaps, but he CAN sing), Anika Noni Rose, Anne Hathaway...

Also, John Travolta's voice is not what it was, but he was fine for "Hairspray," as was Christopher Walken. And both men are famously superlative dancers. Michelle Pfeiffer also has a very good voice--she could never bring down the house as Sergeant Sarah Brown or Laurie in "Oklahoma," perhaps, but she was terrific for the part of Velma in "Hairspray." She is hilarious in"Miss Baltimore Crabs" (one of the weakest songs in the core) one of the highlights of the film--she can hit the notes decently, but what makes this number so memorable is how funny she is at acting bored out of her mind.

The problem with people like Crowe and Brosnan is that they're also not delivering great acting performances on top of being truly terrible singers. It makes their casting seem absolutely bizarre and random. At least with people like Amanda Seyfried and Eddie Redmayne, they were well cast for their acting abilities, fit the roles, and could sing on pitch even if they didn't have the most ideal voices for the roles. That kind of casting I don't mind as much, because at least they're bringing something to the plate.

Hairspray and Into the Woods have been the only movie musicals I could stomach in the past few years. They weren't perfect, but at least everyone seemed well cast and could actually sing.

Crowe and Brosnan are stars. Hardly random casting.

James Marsden has one of the best voices I've heard from a movie star in some time. It really does make one wonder why he doesn't do more musicals. He's sexy, a good actor, can do comedy and drama, AND has that voice? It's just not fair. He's terrific!

R159 Agreed! When I saw him in Enchanted I was pleasantly surprised. I had no clue he was such a talented singer. Just WOW.

Marsden is a decent singer but hardly spectacular

I'm always surprised Marsden didn't do more stage musicals, but I guess it doesn't pay well enough for what he was making in films at the same time when he was in demand. he always reminded me of a much handsomer Peter Gallagher--Gallagher is handsome from a distance but not close up 9and thus was perfect for stage musicals), while Marsden is handsome even in tight close up.

Maybe when Marsden is older he can play Oscar Jaffe in "On the Twentieth Century" in a revival.

James Marsden isn’t spectacular, but he is good. Especially for an actor who isn’t known for doing musicals. I think if he had coaching and really fine tuned his vocals he could be great.

[quote]Just who exactly would be on any list of legitimate theater voices today?

Kelli O'Hara has sung two roles at the Met Opera. Steven Pasquale has a gorgeous voice and has sounded "legit" in certain roles.

[quote]Is there a story behind Edie Adams not repeating her stage role in the TV production?

I believe Adams felt that Russell kept her out of the TV WONDERFUL TOWN so there would be less star competition. Adams had become quite a big Broadway and TV star since the original production. She would have been a little too old for the role on TV, but then, so was Russell. And if a Adams had recreated her role, there would have been a less obvious age difference than there was between Russell and the woman who wound up getting the part in the TV version.

[quote] I'd rather they dub Pierce Brosnan in Mamma Mia and Russell Crowe in Les Miserables than listen to whatever the hell that was that they were doing because it certainly ain't singin'

But, in the second case, don't you think it would be very weird the dub the singing of an actor in a film of a through-sung musical? Quite a different situation from dubbing Deborah Kerr in THE KING AND I, for example.

[quote]Marsden is a decent singer but hardly spectacular

His singing voice is of excellent quality for what little singing he has done in musicals. I don't imagine he would take on the role of Billy Bigelow in a remake of CAROUSEL

Well butter my butt and call me a biscuit, Judy Holliday can sing!

Atta girl!

I think there really is only one star who has musical theater chops. And I think we all know who that is.

Dean Martin looks so gay on that Bells Are Ringing cover.

GD I swear Judy Holliday was a treasure, an absolute treasure. Her death anniversary is coming up in just four weeks. We lost JH way too soon, and it is a shame she never got a Tony.

Well Seth MacFarlane can sing (surprise, surprise), but until he masters enough technique to control those eyebrows best not on stage.

r155, with the exception of Jennifer Hudson, none of the people you list are actually good singers. Anna Kendrick? please.

Anna Kendrick is a very good singer and has a fine voice for the type of music that she sings, which is a completely different kind of music from what Jennifer Hudson sings -- or Kelli O'Hara, or Patti LuPone. Some of you people are really insufferable.

r171, it's those of you willing to accept mediocrity and trumpet it as great that are insufferable.

You call this singing? It's more like braying.

r172, no one is saying she's Maria Callas but it's wrong to say she can't sing at all

Anna Kendrick has a sufficient voice. It’s her face and bird legs that are the real problem.

R175, which makes her a perfect leading lady for the Broadway stage.

Anna Kendrick?

And Stevie was in the audience for this one.

There's a difference between not liking a singer's voice or their vocal quality and them not being able to sing at all. I don't find Ethel Merman pleasant to listen to most of the time, but she's hitting the notes. That means she can sing.

Judy Holliday won a Tony for Bells Are Ringing.

June Allyson was a curious star of MGM musicals. She sang and danced quite poorly, and she wasn't glamorous. She had *something,* though, sparkle? Anyway, the audiences loved her.

R172, Anna Kendrick had been described by a previous poster as a "fine singer," not a "great" one. There is a pretty big difference there, you nasty, pompous piece of work. I know Kendrick's singing from the films of THE LAST FIVE YEARS and INTO THE WOODS, and I think her singing is fine in both of them.

Anna Kendrick's strength is acting. There is nothing exceptional about Anna Kendrick's singing.

After Julie Andrews left "My Fair Lady," she was replaced by Sally Anne Howes who sang all the same notes Julie did, but look at the difference in the two careers and that's for a reason. And after Sally Anne Howes left the show, she was replaced by a woman few remember who sang all the notes. After that woman left the show, they found another one who could sing all the notes. And there were touring companies, too. All the Elizas sang all the notes, but Julie Andrews' singing of the role propelled her to stardom. And she's the only one.

Anna Kendrick would fit in with that crowd of singers who could sing all the notes, but not stand out doing it. She would be in line behind Gaylea Byrne or Caroline Dixon.

R182 That’s a very weird passage about My Fair Lady, especially since it did not land her the movie role which was instead scored by a non singer and lightweight actress.

Warner paid a fortune for the rights and was determined to cast stars in the roles. He wanted to cast Cary Grant and Audrey Hepburn. Hepburn was eager but Grant had the good manners to insist that Warner cast Rex Harrison. Hepburn should have done the same.

R184, I've read that Hepburn did initially turn it down, but she found out that Warner had no intention of ever casting Julie Andrews in what at the time was the most anticipated movie musical.

It was when they started considering other actresses like Liz Taylor for the part that Hepburn said yes. Andrews said in an interview once that Hepburn apologized to her and admitted that she didn't have the courage to turn such a sought after part down.

R114

Sally Ann Howes's performance was wonderful in its own way, but still think Johns/Dench and others who go with the more emotional version has a slight edge.

When you get down to it SITC is a song about being dumped, the song like the real life event isn't meant to be pretty.

People who originate roles are promoted more than replacements.

This needs to extend to TV and I’m looking at you Zoey’s Extraordinary Playlist! Mary Steenburgen and Lauren Graham don’t seem to have been given even a cursory audition to see it they could sing. The weirder thing is that with all the autotune and recording booth magic they can’t seem to clear it up enough to make it presentable, or dub in someone else’s voice.

Then it seemed like Jane Levy was just going to be the foil and hear others singing, but oh no, she got a whole episode and close to five numbers and she turns out to be another challenged singer. The good thing is Skylar Astin and Alex Newell are powerhouses and the character who plays Lief turn out to be quite talented. No more Peter Ghallager, unless there are flashback, if they get a season two, but some of those bad voices may have sunk it.

Lauren Graham got the gig as Adelaide in a Broadway revival of "Guys 'n' Dolls." A Broadway gig doesn't mean she's a solid singer, of course (Hello, Wendy Williams!). But I guess enough people think she's passable...

R189 No, just no. Here she is in a duet with a far better singer who amplifies her inadequacies. And I didn’t even mention that worst than the singing is the dancing, which is even more shocking as Many Moore is the show runner.

Who is Many Moore?

Which one doesn't belong on this stage? Kendrick.

E191 Here she is:

Most of the cast in the dreadful Annie 2014 remake were awful singers.

Was that the all black one? Ever since the Wiz those things never seem to work yet they persist. Did I see someone did an all black musical version of Steel Magnolia or some nonsense?

No. Cameron Diaz played Miss Hannigan. Rose Byrne was Ann Reinking.

Dave Franco was Rooster, wasn't he?

(194) The correct title is "Blannie"

I always called it "AfricAnnie."

Lauren Graham isn't a bad singer at all. She was miscast as Adelaide, but I wouldn't say her singing with the issue. She read too modern to me.

The biggest issue for me has always been that very few people make bursting into song seem natural. It's a lot like really great comic actors. You can't teach it. Some people are just born with the comedy gene and some aren't. There are very few people out there who can transition into a song and make it feel like it makes sense.

There's something very awkward when a lot of people burst into song. It's like they know it's completely ridiculous and look a little embarrassed. Or I've seen some who have been acting just fine, but the moment the music starts, they stop acting and being present in the moment and seem more worried about the notes than the emotions of the song.

This is one of the reasons why you need a singer in the part. Singers are accustomed to expressing themselves through song. There's nothing awkward when Judy Garland or Barbra Streisand burst into song because it's part of who they are. It's part of their acting toolbox.

R201 Your statement reminds me of one of my all time favorite laugh out loud videos, the Mamma Mia parody that French and Saunders created for BBC Comic Relief. It comes right at the start about :50 seconds in and Sienna Miller is trying to transition into Honey, Honey and is at a complete loss. I love that there is even a record on a turnable sound as it starts up, adding to the artifice. There are two segments of it so be sure to watch the whole thing if you are interested, it’s really a great laugh and mind blowing how much they recreate from the movie or had access to the actual sets. And the running joke is that Joanna Lumley’s in it too, but the don’t even bother to call her character anything but Patsy.

Yes, there are some people who can hit the notes easily and even beautifully, but they can't act it for shit. Sometimes, that's more uncomfortable to watch than someone whose not a great singer, but who's acting the hell out of it and making it appear natural and spontaneous. I think this is why people like Carol Channing were big stars on stage. They didn't have great voices, but they made the concept of breaking into song make sense and they had fun doing it. That's infectious.

There's also the meta aspect of Joanna Lumley playing a Christine Baranski part when Baranski made her name playing a Joanna Lumley part in CYBILL. (CYBILL was heavily indebted to the Eddi/Patsy dynamic in ABFAB.)

I don't think "people breaking into song" needed to make sense to audiences of old. Vaudeville/music hall/variety programs. Many old musicals weren't even book musicals. People seem to have got more literal minded with time. Dubbing would be a scandal today because "authenticity."

R201, that is absolute drivel. Of course it can be taught. Do you think this shit is genetic? It's not.

It's a skill. You learn from your own work, from your teachers, and your directors. You practice and practice. You think it through and you master the scene, the song, and the direction. you are to play And then when you've mastered it all, it appears effortless.

If that's the case, why are these new musical theatre majors hitting the boards and turning in boring, unmemorable performances? Sometimes, I think the teachers beat all that's interesting or unique out of the performers and try to fit them into a generic template.

What's "unmemorable" to you might not be to the rest of the world

Part of the problem, R208, is that there are too many musical theater majors. Part of that problem is too many musical theater programs. But mostly, if they are newly graduated musical theater majors, they need time to learn and grow. The good ones will probably do so. The ones who are not so good will lose interest and find some other way to deny the reality of life.

I think the musical theatre programs teach their students how to better their chances of getting cast in the chorus since that's probably the first jobs they'll end up getting out of school. Once they graduate to lead roles, some of them can't seem to get out of chorus mode and they start blending into the scenery instead of standing out.

R164

Thank you for that post.

Steven Pasquale does have a pretty good instrument, could use a bit of fine tuning but maybe that is just this particular video.

Gordon MacRae + Carousel ='s total bliss!

Everyone out of theater school wants to be a triple threat and as a result, are unmemorable in anything they do. They're incapable of creating their own personality, which is one reason Reality Show contestants have done well on Broadway. At least they come in with a defined persona.

Playbill says of the "triple threat".....

What I find distressing is that the traditional Broadway style of singing has disappeared and in its place we have a self-centered, pop style in its place. I absolutely hate it. Not everyone is doing this but so many are. For decades this was not allowed now all of a sudden it is. This is precisely why no revival of A Chorus Line, for example, has been any good. The original cast just sang the score. They respected it and sang what was written. Every revival featured performers who had to make it all about them. Their singing was totally self-involved and sounded like Justin Bieber singing A Chorus Line. Revolting.

Steven Pasquale sounding better.

R164

Kelli O'Hara, as part of City Center's "Encores" series did Judy Holliday's role in "Bells Are Ringing". Reviewers generally praised her voice and skills, but that wasn't enough to save the production. Apparently the play is just too dated for modern audiences.

"Ben Brantley in his New York Times review wrote: "Ms. O’Hara is the possessor of a liquid soprano that was made for the shimmering romantic confessions so essential to classic American musicals. Offering sincerity without saccharine, her voice seems to emerge almost involuntarily, as if she just couldn’t help acting on an irresistible urge. Though obviously highly trained, that voice brims with a conversational ease that makes you forget that singing is not usually the form we choose for confiding in others, even in this age of 'Glee'...This 1956 musical ... was revived on Broadway only nine years ago (with Faith Prince), and it seemed irretrievably dated then."

Musical theater numbers are about more than just pleasntly singing a song; but conveying a character and meaning.

Don't Cry For Me Argentina has been done four thousand ways from Sunday by everyone male, female, trans... but few if anyone nails it like Patti Lupone.

The song is about a woman skillfully manipulating a crowd by saying/singing words she doesn't really mean. Evita Peron (the character in musical) knew fully well where she came from and how she got where she was, and what was needed to go further. So she plays upon the sympathies of those listening who may be quick to judge her by acknowledging past actions, but also defending them as either necessary , or simply a consequence of her natural progression from the streets to presidential palace.

Long story short singing in musical theater means doing so in character to get whatever message those who wrote book across.

Another example is Elaine Stritch and "Ladies Who Lunch".

Song has been done to death by those with far better instruments than Ms. Stritch ever had, but they nearly always fall short of the mark. The good lady OTOH knew what Joanne was about which is why she owns LWL.

Furthermore anyone who thinks getting there is easy (singing a song in character) is either full of BS, and or hasn't done it, because it often is not.

Witness ES trying desperately to give a recording of LWL that Prince wants. You'd think doing the thing on stage 8 or whatever days per week EL would have it nailed.

[Quote] Witness ES trying desperately to give a recording of LWL that Prince wants. You'd think doing the thing on stage 8 or whatever days per week EL would have it nailed.

She was giving a performance in that clip too...

Dean Jones doing "Being Alive" for OBC recording of Company which took him to some deep places (IIRC he was going through a messy divorce at the time).

But again you see it isn't just "pretty singing" that is wanted, but something more.

Lee Remick who had a great instrument doing "Could I Leave You?" from Follies. Again another actor singing in character she gets and puts the meaning across.

[Quote] who had a great instrument

Nonsense.

R142

Cannot imagine Dolores Gray dubbing MM; the former had a very powerful voice, not at all what one would expect coming out of Marilyn Monroe.

[quote]Natalie Wood in...

Natalie was usually dubbed but not always. That's all her in Little Lamb in Gypsy and she's fine.

Gray was never in the running to dub Marilyn, she was merely drafted in to sing Monroe's numbers on the Decca album. Monroe was signed to RCA and thus she recorded her songs for that label. Gray had a versatile voice, much more versatile than Merman's. She could coo with the best of them.

Could Ethel Merman do anything else besides belt singing? It must have been great at the time but as decades went on it seemed her voice needed toning down below foghorn level to suit modern tastes.

This thread and the geography thread are why I love Datalounge.

Audrey Hepburn doing "Show Me" from My Fair Lady in her real voice, not the dubbed version.

Sadly the very handsome Jeremy Brett was dubbed so we don't get to hear his voice.

AH doing "Moon River" from Breakfast at Tiffany's.

Merman in a mostly softer mood.

Did Merman start to look matronly when she was still in her twenties? I've never seen a picture of her looking young and fresh-faced. Every single one has her looking like a middle-aged church frau.

They didn't even try to soften Merman's looks in drawings of her.

When she was allowed to have her original chubby cheeked face, she didn't look middle aged.

The camera did not love her. It may be impossible to get an accurate sense of Ethel in the early 1930s. She made quite a hit during that time, but the surviving film doesn't help much in appreciating her abilities.

The Greatest Showman cast Rebecca Ferguson who couldn't sing, and used Loren Allred's voice instead. I thought that was complete bullshit.

Everything in The Greatest Showman was shit

They just try to get big names. Celebrities they think will fill the seats. Because not very many people go to musicals anymore. They can fix their singing in the studio.

[quote]Sometimes, I think the teachers beat all that's interesting or unique out of the performers and try to fit them into a generic template.

It's not just musical theater. I studied acting with Uta Hagen in the early 90s and she was doing the same thing. And the ones who really suffered were people who had comedy skills. Uta didn't understand farce, which I thought was funny because when Katie Finneran won for Noises Off, she thanked Uta.

THE EDDY (on Netflix): Damien Chazelle keeps on casting people who don't have singing voices as singers. In this case, Polish actress Joanna Kulig. Everyoone in the diegesis remarks how "fantastic" she is. She butchers French and English nonsense lyrics as she mewls into the microphone in a thin high soprano.

And yet that little slip of a girl, who had to know Yiddish as well, had a wonderful voice in Unorthodox.

Hepburn doesn't sound absolutely awful in that "Show Me" clip. I think these days, they could have kept most of her singing and either autotuned it or dubbed the higher notes. She's perfectly fine in the lower register bits.

The dubbing in MFL is atrocious on "Just You Wait". They used Hepburn's voice for the start of the song that she was able to sing, but there was a sudden switch to Marni Nixon for the "One day I'll be famous..." part and of course she sounded nothing like Hepburn. So it sounded like it was two different characters singing the song.

If they had to use the ghastly vanilla tones of Nixon, she could have at least tried harder to make the break seem more seamless. If she couldn't even do that they might as well have used Julie Andrews' versions from the Broadway recording for the soundtrack too.

^ Yeah but "perfectly fine" is no Julie Andrews.

[quote]Hepburn doesn't sound absolutely awful in that "Show Me" clip. I think these days, they could have kept most of her singing and either autotuned it or dubbed the higher notes. She's perfectly fine in the lower register bits.

Did they have autotune in the '60s?

Nay.

[quote]Witness ES trying desperately to give a recording of LWL that Prince wants. You'd think doing the thing on stage 8 or whatever days per week EL would have it nailed.

I'm surprised you wrote that, since the whole point of the documentary is that the main reason why Stritch was unable to give a good performance of "The Ladies Who Lunch" for the cast album is that her slot to record that song was early in the morning at the very end of a marathon recording session, and both she and her voice were overtired. (Plus also there have been rumors that she was drinking during the sessions, but of course I have no idea if that's true.

[quote]Did they have autotune in the '60s?

Do you have any reading comprehension skills whatsoever?

Joanne isn't Evita, so what does a marathon session matter? And many a singer like to record into the early hours.

[quote](Plus also there have been rumors that she was drinking during the sessions, but of course I have no idea if that's true.

You see other people drinking in the documentary. You think Stritch was going to sit there and watch them drink and not partake?

Stritch was scheduled to record her solo last because everyone knew what a pain in the ass she was. But, yes, the recording session ran longer than it should have.

They fucked Stritch by scheduling her song for the end. She was exhausted and her voice was worn out by the time they got around to her. So she fucked them right back by not giving them a take they could even possibly use. When they gave her reasonable circumstances to work in, she walked in and nailed it.

She was right to fuck them back. She created one of the most iconic cuts on any Broadway cast album. Had she not handled it the way she did, she would not have had that, Sondheim would not have had that, and the show would not have had it, either.

She's the one who was being reasonable that very late night in the studio.

Girls, girls, why not just watch it for yourselves?

r15, I disagree. I found Eddie struggling with his songs. Did not enjoy his singing. The best singer was Adam Tveit as Enjorais. And Samantha Barks as Eponine.

“You scheming little bitch!”

“Please, I’m a child!”

r76, La La land didn't work out well? No Best Picture winner but it worked out pretty well.

Have you heard the score to COMPANY? There's no way Stritch's voice was tired out by "The Little Things You Do Together" etc. Stritch found a way to give herself a storyline in the documentary. Her whole existence was centred around making herself the centre of attention.

Opening up the floor to a few different actresses interpretations of "I'm Still Here".

Carol Burnett is first:

Now Yvonne De Carlo, and actress many sadly only know from her television role as Lily Munster.

Who is the older gentleman with the becoming coiffure introducing Dolores Gray in R226?

Miss Danny LaRue.

R261

Thank you!

I can smell the Aero Lak from here....

Looked up Danny La Rue, seems she was one of the stately female impersonators that include Charles Pierce. Do they (female impersonators" even still exist or has RuPaul and the trans taken over?

You mustn't follow RuPaul at all if you think "RuPaul and trans" is a cosy coupling.

A documentary on LaRue.

Could the home spun Americana of Day or Reynolds have worked on screen in SOM? I think Rodgers assumed Day was going to get it. Remember Andrews was cast while they were still editing Poppins and there had been no public reaction to her in a Hollywood production? Disney allowed Wise to see some of it because there was concern Julie was unphotogenic.

Beaton had a photo session with her during the My Fair Lady run and was endlessly cooing how wonderful the session was going. After he had finished he said, "Of course you have the most unphotogenic face imaginable." What a queen! For some reason he did not seem to like her. Her low class background trodding the boards in English music halls? I wonder what he thought in the mid '60s when she was Hollywood's biggest star and Poppins and Music were playing all over. His diaries say little about her.

Yet he is totally open about his complete contempt for Harrison from when they both started working together on the original Broadway production of Lady. I believe Rex called her a cunt in front of the entire company because she was having so much trouble with the role. Bitch is the word someone said but cunt was his favorite word for most everyone so I assume it was that. He called Hart a cocksucker in front of the cast. He was nice to me when I asked him to sign my My Fair Lady film program after The Kingfisher. In fact he was delighted to see it and flipped through it. Had I known of his reputation I wouldn't have risked it.

[quote]Ryan Gosling's character should have been black. That's the real issue.

Ah, no.

Julie Andrews was almost fired from My Fair Lady because she wasn't delivering what they wanted.

Who was their back up?

[quote]Could the home spun Americana of Day or Reynolds have worked on screen in SOM?

I think they had a small window of opportunity to get the film made. If Julie Andrews wasn't available, they had to find someone who was youngish and appealing. I think they cast Marni Nixon as one of the nuns in the movie as insurance in case they needed some extra voice work. Maybe Julie could have done My Fair Lady and Audrey Hepburn could have done The Sound of Music.

Petula Clark could have done the Sound of Music on screen.

[quote]Maybe Julie could have done My Fair Lady and Audrey Hepburn could have done The Sound of Music.

Oh, that's so interesting. Yes, they absolutely could have. Andrews is never believable as a young woman who wants to live the next 50 years in a convent. Hepburn could have done that easily. And Maria's music is much more easily adaptable than is Eliza Doolittle's.

I would vote for this.

I think Audrey would have matched with the children better than Julie did. Audrey had that wide-eyed innocence that would have made her seem more like an au pair and would have worked well in the scenes with Eleanor Parker. It's hard to believe that the Captain would leave Eleanor Parker for Julie Andrews.

The Baroness (Eleanor Parker) was a total cunt. Even The Captain would have recognized that eventually.

[quote]The Baroness (Eleanor Parker) was a total cunt. Even The Captain would have recognized that eventually.

So was the real Maria von Trapp. The Captain liked his women cunty. He had the same dynamic as Edward and Wallis Simpson.

^ But the movie was different. It was a movie....

[quote]^ But the movie was different. It was a movie....

But Maria von Trapp thought she'd have a larger role than she had. I think Maria von Trapp was closer to Mama Rose in personality.

Tell me about it.

R272 The very point IS that Maria is ill suited for life in the convent, the whole show is predicated on that fact and being sent away to mediate on if that is the right choice for her. If Audrey is there and she takes to it like a duck to water there is no “How do we solve a problem like Maria?” just open arms and “Isn’t Maria magnificent, pious, sweet and demure!”

The irony of this all is Cabaret, where Sally is not supposed to be a good singer, get so good leading ladies, but there have been suitable ones like Emma, Brooke and Michelle.

Where does it say Sally is not a good singer?

[quote]Where does it say Sally is not a good singer?

The presumption is that if she were a better singer, she wouldn't be performing in a dump like the Kit Kat Klub.

^ To energize the show, you need someone at least capable. In the movie it was a great choice to cast Liza. She has the offbeat kookiness to seem unconventional enough to have to perform in a trashy Berlin nightclub, but once she sings, the voice elevates everything. Liza is really too good to play sad Sally, but her talent is what you need to reach the audience. Fosse was right to cast her.

R282, in I Am A Camera, it says she sings badly.

But that's the source material, not the musical.

[quote]Looked up Danny La Rue, seems she was one of the stately female impersonators that include Charles Pierce. Do they (female impersonators" even still exist or has RuPaul and the trans taken over?

What about ME?

The Kit Kat Klub is basically a titty bar. It's probably also a front for drugs and/or stolen merchandise. Nobody is there to hear any singing.

Audrey Hepburn already did her "nun" role about four-five years earlier in film "The Nun's Story". True it wasn't a musical but why even go there again?

Simple minded bitches in this thread. Sally Bowles was self-destructive. It takes a lot more than a good voice to become a successful professional singer. Sally singing well in the movie does not eliminate the fact that she's also self destructive. Not unlike the actress who played her. All the talent in the world, yet she crashed again and again. It's fine if Sally has a good voice in this film because she is seriously lacking in some other important character traits, all of which Liza Minnelli could bring to life. The singing voice argument is too simple minded to make with a straight face. Shame on you who tried it.

In any event, we're talking about a movie here and the fact is that a shit poor performance of "Cabaret" or "Maybe This Time" in 12 channel digital-wigital stereo sound is going to be a really miserable listening experience for everyone. If you can suspend belief to accept the characters in a movie sing at all, then there is no reason not accept that this one sings really well.

[quote] The very point IS that Maria is ill suited for life in the convent,

If you think that's the point of anything, go right ahead. But the fact that Julie Andrews is incapable to conveying to anyone that she would seriously be interested in religious life undermines that point you would like to make. It's even silly to think that the nuns would even accept her as a postulate. Audrey Hepburn would have brought many wonderful qualities to that aspect of the role and it might have up the dramatic stakes on her choice of whether to return to the convent or stay with the Captain.

I am not arguing that Hepburn should have been cast. Someone above suggested it as a possibility and I think it is a very interesting idea.

People forget that Liza couldn't buy a hit before Cabaret. I don't know if she'd even have got some of the high profile appearances without her showbiz pedigree.

Darling, the convent was just a place for me to lay low rent free until I got my shit together. Once I met my mark, I had no need for them anymore.

I think it's for a few reasons. Some have already been said. What they used to do in movie musicals is get pop singers (Bing Crosby, Doris Day, Frank Sinatra), Broadway musical performers (Streisand, Astaire, Kelly, Mary Martin, etc.), ex-vaudeville performers (Judy Garland), nightclub acts (Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis), radio stars, etc., and put them in movies. They made a lot of musicals so they were looking for talent. Today you may see a few Broadway musical stars in movies, but not many. Or pop stars, like Lady Gaga. But I think the fact that not many musicals are made, plus the end of the contract system, has a lot to do with it. There aren't studios with whole departments of people under contract, either, like vocal coaches, songwriters, chorus singers, orchestras, arrangers, etc. And there aren't studios interested in building singers into movie stars, to star in their musicals.

PS I should have added that I wish Hollywood would still try to discover musical talent for musicals, from Broadway or pop or wherever, rather than casting non-singing/non-dancing actors. Why not make musicals with really good dancers and singers, right?

Hollywood has always gone for looks. Sometimes the looks went hand in hand with the right talent(s). But they'll always go for the looks or star status first. Always.

Stone and Gosling looked terrific together and they had chemistry. Today’s audiences don’t have the same expectations in regards to dancing and singing skill; they want being.

[quote]Joanne isn't Evita, so what does a marathon session matter? And many a singer like to record into the early hours.

That's an ignorant comment. Many performers are likely to have very tired voices after a 14-hour recording session. ESPECIALLY performers like Stritch, who have no real, legit vocal training.

[quote]Have you heard the score to COMPANY? There's no way Stritch's voice was tired out by "The Little Things You Do Together" etc. Stritch found a way to give herself a storyline in the documentary. Her whole existence was centred around making herself the centre of attention.

I'm sure that making herself the center of attention was part of it, but her voice does sound VERY tired when she tries to do the song two or three times before they give up and schedule her to come in another day and sing to orchestral tracks. She didn't only sing "The Little Things You Do Together" during the marathon, she sang in all of those group numbers as well.

[quote]I think they had a small window of opportunity to get the film made. If Julie Andrews wasn't available, they had to find someone who was youngish and appealing. I think they cast Marni Nixon as one of the nuns in the movie as insurance in case they needed some extra voice work.

Why did they have "a small window of opportunity to get the film made," and what does casting Marni Nixon as one of the nuns have to do with whether or not they would need to hire her for "extra voice work?"

[Quote] That's an ignorant comment. Many performers are likely to have very tired voices after a 14-hour recording session. ESPECIALLY performers like Stritch, who have no real, legit vocal training.

And what heavy singing was she doing in that time? Have you heard the score?

Who cares how much singing she had done? You don't have to even consider it. She was there at that studio from the time the cast was called in the morning until after everyone else had gone. Well after midnight. And she's diabetic. And an alcoholic. She would be tired even if she had not sung. And then.... 12 hours after she arrived, it's her turn. Fuck that.

COMPANY is an ensemble show. Stritch had plenty to sing that day before getting to her solo. The schedule was badly planned and she fixed it for them. The album is known for three things. Sondheim's score. Jonathan Tunick's arrangements. And Elaine Stritch's performance of "The Ladies Who Lunch." She was entirely justified in standing up for the artistic integrity of the recording when all the money people were about to flush it down the toilet.

What are you talking about? It wasn't Stritch's decision to come back to do her vocal.

[quote]And what heavy singing was she doing in that time? Have you heard the score?

I have known the score very well since I got the album in 1970, you nasty piece of work. A 14-hour recording session can be very tiring on anyone involved, even if they don't have a lot of solo-singing to do -- and, as I said, ESPECIALLY if they don't have a trained singing voice. In addition to her solo work in "The Little Things You Do Together," Stritch had already had to sing as part of the ensemble in four other numbers over that 12-14 hour period, and by the time she got to "The Ladies Who Lunch," she probably had not slept in 20 hours or so (I'm guessing). Plus, as I said, it has been said that she was drinking during the sessions (and/or on breaks), PLUS everyone there was smoking.

Understand?

Alcohol dries out the vocal cords. Any singer who does it on the job is a fool.

What I am talking about is that she gave them one awful take after another. She gave them nothing they could use. The decision they made is the only one she gave them to make.

They should have done like Lucy in Mame and just pieced together the best lines of each take.

Am spoiled for choice in clip posted R223.

Steve Elmore or Larry Kert; you can throw Charles Braswell in as well.

On another note did anyone see George Chakiris who did Robert on the national tour (1971) of Company? Cannot find anything online with him singing anything from the show.

[quote]No. Cameron Diaz played Miss Hannigan. Rose Byrne was Ann Reinking.

I remember people whining on twitter about Rose Byrne being cast to play the secretary/love interest in Annie and said a black woman should have been cast instead.

[quote]No. Cameron Diaz played Miss Hannigan. Rose Byrne was Ann Reinking.

I remember people whining on twitter about Rose Byrne being cast to play the secretary/love interest in Annie and said a black woman should have been cast instead.

Is a bad vocal performance from Elaine Stritch all that different from a good performance?

As opposed to people like r305 who whine about a movie having a predominantly black cast.....but don't give a shit that the vast majority of films have few black characters

[quote]COMPANY is an ensemble show. Stritch had plenty to sing that day before getting to her solo. The schedule was badly planned and she fixed it for them.

I've always guessed that a major reason why "The Ladies Who Lunch" was scheduled for the end of the session is that's it's one of only two solo tracks in the show, the other being "Another Hundred People." But that doesn't mean it was a good reason, considering the other factors at play....

R292 To piggyback a bit on what you said, how does Disney fit into this, especially when they moved away from having kind of a stable of in house unknown talent to moving on to big name talent? I’ll admit I’m not a big fan and haven’t looked that closely, but if the animated version of Little Mermaid was being made today, there’s no way a totally unknown person would be recorded for the singing voice of Ariel like it was then. Please note I’m not talking live action like the unknown actress who was chosen because she fit the needs of what they were looking for in casting.

I think back to the story about Beauty and the Beast and how one of the composer/lyric team was dying of AIDS and they got Angela Landsbury to sing Be Our Guest to him. I assume the emotional impact of that situation lead to wanting to have her do it for the film, but were the other singers known? And didn’t they have one singer do the role of Pocahontas, but then have Vanessa Willams sing Color of the Wind to be a commercially released pop song? Now days it needs to be all Idina Mendel, Jonathan Groff, LMM and such.

They had Demi Lovato cut a pop version of "Let It Go". Same as Peabo Bryson and Regina Belle back in the day. Or Celine and... Peabo again?

I don't think anyone who's played Sally Bowles on stage has been a necessarily bad singer. They usually hit the notes, but they're not going to hold them for long or come out with those big, brassy notes that Liza was known for. Some of them had tiny little voices that I'm sure were amplified to hell and back. Michelle Williams especially had this teeny tiny little voice, but it was sometimes almost pretty in its own way, but just mediocre enough for Sally.

Mediocre really is more of the type of singer Sally needs to be. Not exactly painful, but not a powerhouse. Any attention she is getting is more for her looks, body, or personality.

If Elaine Stritch hadn't done what she did, then we wouldn't have the even funnier Paula Pell satirizing it.

R313 Wait, is this a John Mulvaney thing? If so, I was dismissive of those saying he’s gay, but if he came up with this he has to be gay, only true theater queens know and care about this enough to have done a parody.

r314, it's part of the series called Documentary Now. In each episode, they satirize a documentary. The Company one is from "Original Cast Album: Co-op".

[quote]On another note did anyone see George Chakiris who did Robert on the national tour (1971) of Company? Cannot find anything online with him singing anything from the show.

My very first Broadway show. Saw it in San Francisco.

Christian Bale in Newsies. His singing was awful and his New York accent was even worse.

Hepburn as Maria in TSOM would have been an interesting choice. She would have had better chemistry with the children and wouldn't have appeared so prim.

Besides her unusual (for mainstream Hollywood movies of that era) Belgian accent, with traces of English RP, wouldn't have appeared quite as odd in a film set in Austria. She wouldn't have sounded Austrian but neither did the rest of the cast.

However she had already started to appear a bit gaunt by then and would have been a María who seemed a lot older than Andrews' portrayal.

And of course the question of her singing. She'd have needed some dubbing, but please God, not the awful, bland, anemic singing of Marni Nixon. Wasn't there anyone better available to dub back then?

That's why you hire the real thing. If you hire a personality, that's not enough, and it's disrespectful to what it's supposed to be about. The music.

R272

That was the whole point, Maria didn't belong in a convent; she only landed there due to being an orphan or something else (cannot recall). The "problem" that needed solving about Maria was sorting her life out.

R317

Yes, but he filled out those tighty whities in American Psycho rather well.

Can’t act. Can’t sing. Slightly bald. Can dance a little.

Because Ryan fills out a pair of pants nicely

In terms of looks, Ryan Reynolds is the definition of AWG.

R324 do you mean Gosling??

Both.

I invented AWG.

Awful White Grandfather? Don't forget AW Father too, Ryan.

R328, AWG = Average White Guy

Oh thanks, we have been wondering for years.

The singing is horrible in LaLa Land...... Also I am annoyed by Emma's mouth and teeth,the whole physical feature it's what makes her stand out and not in a positive way imo.

At least they didn’t use Miles Teller in the role of Sebastian. That guy is ugly and his singing isn’t anything to write home about either, though it’s a bit better than Gosling’s. Should have gotten a hottie like Zac Efron.

Efron can't sing live, can ge?

*he?

Andrews did SOM in her 20s. Hepburn would have been in her 30s. Andrews chemistry with children is what helped to make both MP and SOM such enormous successes even more than half a century later. General audiences and not just musical queens born decades after they were made love them.

There was a small window for the film because 20th Century Fox was sinking under the weight of Cleopatra. They were banking on SOM being even a modest hit because it was a known R and H classic even at that point in time. They needed the cash badly. Also they had wasted time with William Wyler who they wanted but who was waffling. They then somehow got Wise. And with his big musical hit WSS under his belt I'm not sure why he even took on SOM. He didn't need the money. Despite being a big moneymaker on Broadway and on the road it was a cornball work despised in Hollywood circles and Wise could have done almost anything he wanted.

Were they not both in their 30s?

AH was born in 1929, and JA in 1936.

While there is a seven year difference making them both in their 30's JA had just reached 30 in 1965, while AH would have been about 36.

TSOM began filming in 1964 so Julie Andrews would have been 29 to Audrey Hepburn 35.

Besides just cannot see the thin and sometimes frail looking AH playing the high spirited girl "Maria". One realizes living through Nazi occupation took a toll on AH's health (not getting enough to eat, etc...), but she hardly looked like the sort of girl you'd find running up the hills of Austria.

Julie Andrews was fresh faced and lovely in TSOM, especially towards the end at Maria's wedding. Everything one would have wanted and expected a young virginal woman to be on her wedding day. AH may have been all kinds of chic, but don't think she would have pulled it off with same effect.

Julie Andrews was already mumsy by 1965, with that functional haircut.

Another,

I'm glad TSOM got made when it did and not towards the end of the decade, because otherwise, the unoriginal casting hacks of Hollywood might have unleashed Barbra Streisand as Fraulein Maria on the movie-going public.

Julie Andrews was perfect. Acting wise, singing wise, looks wise. Completely believable. Audrey would have been Audrey the movie star. Coy and cute and no vocal fireworks whatsoever. The movie title is "The Sound of Music", I believe.

When Paramount bought film option for TSOM Audrey Hepburn was actually first choice. That option was dropped but the stage version of TSOM was picked up as a vehicle for Mary Martin.

When 20th Century Fox got a hold of film option initial names floated about were Shirley Jones and Grace Kelly. That was until Wise and Lehman took a stroll over to Disney and watched Mary Poppins. From that moment on it was Julie Andrews, period end of story.

Cannot see Grace Kelly as Maria at all, but Shirley Jones would have been an interesting choice. She at least had a legitimate voice so perhaps less to no dubbing might have been required.

Was Lesley Ann Warren considered?

Shirley Jones sings title song from TSOM

Other names floated about for Maria were Anne Bancroft, Angie Dickinson, and Doris Day.

Anne Bancroft? Really?

Was Sally Field considered for TSOM?

If Angie Dickinson played the role, they could have inserted a verse about Maria knowing where to find the boys and the booze.

What about Christina Applegate in Sweet Charity? Was she well received? From what I can tell she isn’t that great, but maybe on wrong.

Angie Dickinson as Maria is one of the craziest casting rumors I've ever heard in my life. It's almost up there with Julia Roberts as Harriet. The problem with her Maria would be that she was fucking the priests and turning them away from the cloth.

Lesley Ann Warren as Maria would be pretty interesting. She'd be a ditsy and sexy Maria.

Christina Applegate was very winning as Charity. Great acting and comic timing, perfectly decent singing voice, and not a bad dancer at all. I thought she was excellent. The production was a little messy, but it was the first major production to stray from the Fosse staging, so I think people were too harsh on it since it's sort of hard to improve upon perfection. They did add a much better, more satisfying ending where Charity tells off Oscar and ends up alone, but at least she still has the optimism that tomorrow will be better. It was really sweet and gave her more of an arc where she finally demands a little respect.

Some have critiqued Applegate's singing, but there are enough clips of her singing from the show online, so you can make up your own mind. Personally, she's no better or worse than Verdon or Reinking or MacLaine.

r350, I doubt the priests would have been interested in a grown woman.....

[quote]Was Sally Field considered for TSOM?

Sally was only 18 in 1964. I'm not sure how old the real Maria was when she married the Captain, but he probably would've seemed like a child molester if he paired up with Gidget.

Not is the captain was played by Bobby Vee!

*Not if

WTF would you cunts please stop typing "TSOM" FFS?! STFU GTFO

IGMATATIOTR!

Got it, R356. From here on it, it's "The Sound of Mucus."

Ryan Gosling performed beautifully singing “City of Stars” in LLL.

Christina Applegate took plenty of heat because most only associated her with Kelly Bundy from Married With Children on television. Their minds were made up going in and nothing much would move that needle.

Then of course there was the production which had issues of it's own. Reviews were all over the place; some were kind, others generous, rest not so much of either.

Applegate was good enough, not great, but good enough. She was lovely on stage, nailed all the laughs, sang the role as well as any of them ever do, but really only danced at the level of an Advanced Zumba or Jazzercise class. The sort of dancing you would expect from any actress in Hollywood. She could do all the steps, but was never going to make it exciting. There was nothing about that production that was fresh or creative or artistic. It was all designed to put a TV star on Broadway in a familiar title and then sit back and count the money.

If she had wanted to build a stage career, she should have toured the show for two years. She could have successfully played every major city in the country. She would have made tons of money for everyone. With her TV fame, she would have sold piles of tickets everywhere she went. With that kind of financial cred, she would have been on every theatrical producer's list. She could have chosen any project that she wanted to develop.

Of course, she had tragic health problems that intervened in the years following Sweet Charity. But I suspect the whole "8 times a week" thing was more than she wanted.

Let's go to the video tape!

Quite honestly performance reminds me of a Kelly Bundy sketch....

What was the thought process behind choosing Christina Applegate? Is that really the best people could do? I mean yes she was famous for MWC, but come on...

Ain't nothing like the real thing.....

Did Applegate play JenAn's sister on FRIENDS before or after SWEET CHARITY? FRIENDS was huge back then. Brooke Shields' guest stint got her SUDDENLY SUSAN. I think Shields' Broadway gigs followed as well.

If I recall Christina broke her ankle earlier on in the production and her dancing part was recalibrated to accommodate it.

Since we're on a Fosse jag atm; cannot let it go without mentioning All That Jazz. Perhaps (IMHO) one of the best musicals Hollywood put out in 1970's.

I always think of the line in the film noir "Road House" about a cafe singer played by Ida Lupino: "She does more without a voice than anyone I ever heard."

Is the actor right for the part? Can s/he put over the song? That's all that matters.

Regardless of her dancing, Reinking's singing is absolutely unbearable, which she proved at the Oscars. Verdon wasn't much better towards the end of her career.

Miss Lupino was lucky to have the estimable comic actress Celeste Holm to deliver that line.

[quote]Regardless of her dancing, Reinking's singing is absolutely unbearable, which she proved at the Oscars. Verdon wasn't much better towards the end of her career.

Right. Both of them sang just fine when they were younger, but their voices deteriorated greatly as they got older, for whatever reasons.

Reinking and Verdon were never "fine" as vocalists but since they were dancers, no one paid too much attention. As they got older, it was agony hearing them croak through a song. Reinking's Oscar fiasco was when she was only 34.

Did Gwen Verdon record her own songs in "Damn Yankees" or was she dubbed?

Its her own voice I believe.

Between the wars cabaret singers were all over the map. Some had wonderful voices with legitimate training/background, others not so much or any, but were entertaining enough.

Liza Minnelli modeled her interpretation of Sally Bowles after Louise Brooks, that right there tells you a lot about how she and others saw the character.

Liza is inconsistent on the model for Sally Bowles. The link above states that Vincente Minnelli advised her to study Louise Brooks. Liza has told the same story, but with her father telling her to research Lia De Putti.

Verdon smoked which affected her voice. She sounds excellent on OCR of "Damn Yankees" and projected the role on Broadway without mics when she did it on Broadway, as she did her other roles until maybe the 60s after Streisand was among the first to use one (besides floor mics) in "Funny Girl". My theater professor saw Verdon in "Damn Yankees" and said she had a huge voice back then. It really was a fraction of what it was by the time she did "Chicago" though, but her acting and dancing were great.

Jeremy Northam should have the musical (and other career) that Hugh Jackman has; Northan was perfection singing and acting as Ivor Novello in "Gosford Park" with a beautiful singing voice. I was also very impressed by James Marsden in "Hairspray". Both much better voices than Hugh being promulgated out there, but these two other guys are also good-looking as well.

I sometimes believe that Liza is the original unreliable narrator.

Btw, I don't think Northam or Marsden should have sung Jean Valjean either.

How did Verdon smoke heavily and still dance full out?

People here think Marsden is more talented than he really is because they think he's hot

R382 I think that kind of bullshit thinking has gone on to long and attractive people can be quite a surprise when it comes to talent. By all regards ScarJo did a phenomenal job on her Broadway Tony award role, but I’m still critical of her elsewhere. James is to easily dismissed, and his comic turn of the role on Dead To Me shows his flexibility.

I met James Marsden once in NY at the theater for The Book of Mormon when it had been open for a few months. Our seats happened to be next to each other. He was friendly, bright and had a self deprecating sense of humor. He said he loved signing and wished he could do more of it. I was a fan before, but even more so after spending time with him (not to brag, but I have pics to prove it). He's very good looking in person and it's no surprise that he often gets cast. He's a leading man, a character actor, a superhero, can sing, dance, be a comedic actor and dramatic actor. He's been in big budget blockbusters and indie films and TV. Been in hits and flops. He still looks great and has never really been typecast. He always works (lots of smaller roles here and there) and will soon be a lead in a new version of The Stand (miniseries I think). And no, he doesn't read as gay (dammit), but he was gay friendly.

R383, it's the other way around. People aren't dismissed because they're attractive, they're given a free pass. Do you think it's a coincidence that most famous singers and actors are attractive?

Marsden isn't really a leading man. He's a beta lead. Has there been a succession of "James Marsden vehicles"? (And I don't mean automobiles or motorbikes)

R385 What Madonna and Lady Gaga have been some of the most successful singers of the recent past and neither are conventionally attractive. I’m not sure what you are saying? Whitney and Diana are overrated? Might agree there. And poor unfortunate Janet could only hold attractive together in spurts.

I don’t consider Madonna a singer. I consider her an entertainer. She doesn’t have a good voice.

R386 Is it because of his height? How tall is he, is it a Jermey Renner thing? Damn tall people like Chris Pine, they get the better parts.

Have you seen X-Men? Did you come away thinking that Marsden had owned the movie? Or stole any scenes? Of course, stars are built but Marsden has been in some pretty big projects and he's never stood out in any of them. I'm reminded of Patrick Wilson, who I thought was a standout in "Angels In America." Not so in anything else. Interesting that Wilson took Hugh Jackman's breakout role when Oklahoma transferred to Broadway. It didn't make Wilson a star. You either got it or you ain't.

[quote]He said he loved signing and wished he could do more of it.

Perhaps he should audition for one of Deaf West's musicals.

R390 Just saw scenes of Little Children with Wilson and remarked “Why didn’t he become a big star?” He was excellent in that. Of all the XMen I was most fascinated by Marsden’s character (besides X and Magneto of course) but the only thing they seemed to give him to do was be jealous. That Grey woman was so not interesting at all or worth fighting over. The flaw was not giving him a big part in the story and a commanding storyline. A man who’s looks can fry you alive should have had spin off stand alone potential.

Were those sex scenes of Wilson's....?

Hmm, he had a few leads. As far back as Disturbing Behavior (1998) to the recent hit Sonic the Hedgehog (2020). He's listed as the lead in the upcoming version of The Stand. The lead in a few romantic comedies like Walk of Shame, goofy comedies like Hop and some thrillers like the remake of Straw Dogs (the poster is a close up of his face), The Box and Gossip. And lots of costar leads. Not a huge star but some lead roles.

[Quote] The flaw was not giving him a big part in the story and a commanding storyline.

Do you think people in power are trying to keep James Marsden down?

R393, Yes, but I think he did lost vulnerability very well in that role and how people fall into fucked up traps like law school.

R395 No, I’m saying they seemed to have regulated his very interesting character to the side lines while giving that Grey woman and Stormcloud or what ever her name is more to do. If they had made him interesting enough he could have been a franchise character like Wolverine.

r387, they are both more attractive than the average person. Like 70% of Americans are overweight. Madonna was considered a hot babe when she was younger.

No one is keeping James Marsden down. He isn't an A-list leading man because he isn't rugged enough to be an action hero and doesn't have the charisma for romantic leads. He's still more successful than the vast majority of actors. 99% of SAG is unemployed

If you google "James Marsden magazine cover" there is some definite star hotness on display. Photo editors love him.

Handsome =/= Star

Okay, so I did google "James Marsden magazine cover" and there is not one of those magazine covers in which he does not look self-conscious.

Self conscious?

R384 I feel you've been dining out at DL on that story for years.

He can look rodenty. Not a great nose.

This nostrils shot should never have been selected.

His jawline can look a little weak.

When he's on the cover of Present Hole Magazine, then I'll be interested.

Verdon's voice on Sweet Charity OBC is flat and inexpressive. I think John Simon said her range would rival a cricket's.

Verdon was always a better singer than Reinking. In her early days, she was really good. Not Streisand level, mind you, but pleasant enough. She got raspy in her later years. Reinking took to emulating Verdon's singing and speaking voice in Chicago and it was downright grotesque and kind of scary.

As for Applegate, people forget that Sweet Charity is as much a Neil Simon show as it is a Bob Fosse show, so the leading lady has to be a skilled comic which Applegate was/is. I'd never say she danced it the best (then again, we don't know what the original choreography was before she injured herself) and her vocals were no better or worse than others I've seen in the part, but she landed every laugh and then some and was very moving in the role. Any major problems that production had were not due to her involvement.

Wasn't there a rumor going around that the revival was built around Marissa Tomei of all people? Acting wise, she might have been great, but I've never heard her sing or seen her dance. Then it was Jane Krakowski for bit who had a fight with Neil Simon over something she found anti-woman in the script and she got the boot.

R404, perfect looks can be very BORING!

[Quote] perfect looks can be very BORING!

Tell me about it!

An actor needs more than good looks to keep working. They might last a decade or maybe a little longer, but once the looks go, people realize they have nothing left to offer and don't want to see them anymore.

Marsden was smart to never make a career based on simply looks. He'll keep working well into old age because of this. He's proven himself as being more than just a pretty face. Matt Bomer, on the other hand, still hasn't impressed me in anything I've seen him in. He's perfectly acceptable at best. It's good he has powerful friends like Ryan Murphy.

Matt Bomer went to a prestigious acting school. The self-haters here put openly gay men down while slobbering over (ostensibly) straight actors. So they'll pretend someone like James Marsden is a talent for the ages.

So did Carrie Fisher. Big deal.

"Didn't you girls say you went to a conservatory?" "Yes. For a whole year." "I thought you said three years." "We got time off for good behavior".

r414, Carrie Fisher was more talented than James Marsden

But her trip to drama school had nothing to do with it. She was funny but a very limited actress. A better writer, wit.

Well, Marsden ain't exactly playing Hamlet at the Old Vic, either.

The drama school point was in response to a comment about Bomer, not Marsden. Did Marsden go to the Copacabana School of Dramatic Art?

Marsden is way more talented and versatile than Bomer, but then versatility is not something you'd associate with him.

r420, only dataloungers think James Marsden is more talented than Matt Bomer

Next up: Channing Tatum vs. Lee Pace.

R421, only DL'ers think of Bomer in any way.

Bomer is perfectly fine, but a great actor he is not. He's been acceptable in just about everything he's done, but I've never left a movie thinking "Wow! Matt Bomer really stole the show and gave a brilliant performance that'll be talked about for years to come." Marsden has a little more range than Bomer, but the only thing I've ever been pleasantly surprised by with him is his singing voice and the fact that he doesn't seem to take himself very seriously.

If it were a competition, I'd give Marsden the edge since he's more entertaining than Bomer.

And if you return to Broadway, there were many, many great Broadway stars who couldn't sing.

Yes, Marsden is so entertaining, which is why he's always the guy who loses the girl to a more charismatic actor

Btw, Bomer can sing, too

Isn’t Marsden about a decade older than Bomer? And started earlier in the business as well?

Marsden is four years old and he and Bomer began at approximately the same age.

Marsden has credits dating back to 1993, Bomer didn't have any movie or tv credits until the 2000s

Bomer has been on Broadway in The Boys in the Band. Marsden has not.

[quote]Bomer has been on Broadway in The Boys in the Band. Marsden has not.

He was in a large cast, he didn't get particularly good reviews and his main contribution was getting naked and then fading into the background while everyone else did the heavy lifting even though I felt like most of them were miscast.

[quote]An actor needs more than good looks to keep working. They might last a decade or maybe a little longer, but once the looks go, people realize they have nothing left to offer and don't want to see them anymore.

It does take more than good looks to keep working but:

1. The two aren't even on the same playing field as Bomer is openly gay. He wouldn't have been granted the same opportunities as Marsden in film.

2. They are, however, known as being nice guys who are easy to work with and that does take you quite a long way.

Marsden is incredibly versatile in general and has always taken risks. Once he started doing comedies I thought much more of him. I will give Bomer credit for finally attempting to do that with Will & Grace where he made fun of himself and for playing a psychopath on The Sinner (which was terrible but not because of him.) I feel like Marsden is the better singer in addition to being primarily a film actor. Bomer is a tv actor but he has done insanely well for being openly gay.

Marsden, however, has the edge. He could go from playing "Cyclops" in the "X-Men" franchise, to "prince charming" in "Enchanted," to being the only funny white character in a black comedy movie like "Death at a Funeral," to a jerk in "Dead to Me," and while he never really stands out he's good enough to hold his own with everyone and fit right in.

But I do feel they'll both be around for a very long time because both are willing to take whatever roles they can get to keep working.

Ryan Idol was also on Broadway.

R430 Why are you faulting Marsden for not being in a play that cast only openly gay men? And how were they legally allowed to do that?

r433, how do Hollywood movies get away with refusing to cast openly gay men in straight leading man roles?

R434

For same reasons they don't cast known trans in romantic female or other lead roles.

Since the beginning Hollywood has always been about selling fantasy. Leading men are supposed to be the sort every man wants or wishes to be, and every woman would want to marry (or at least be romantically involved with), so there is your answer. It doesn't work for the other type of male lead either (in theory); action male hero.

Suits in Hollywood long have feared that audiences would reject an known and openly gay man as any sort of romantic lead because the premise doesn't work.

Take Rock Hudson and Jane Wyman in "All That Heaven Allows". Yes many knew RH was gay, but long as it wasn't confirmed audiences bought him as the tall dark and handsome male romantic lead. If everyone and their mother knew then that RH was gay then the film likely would have bombed, and or audiences would have laughed through much.

Things are actually worse today because Hollywood makes majority of money on international market. Not just Europe but places like China and elsewhere that are socially conservative. They do say one reason why Tom Cruise will never come out of the closet (if he is indeed gay) is that it would ruin his franchise as a bankable action male film star.

On the indie, small, art or whatever things may be different; but for blockbuster major motion pictures Hollywood just isn't ready (and may never be) to cast an openly gay male as romantic or action male lead. When, unless or until someone comes along who can prove he is bankable on that level regardless of being out, things might change.

A friend of mine was/is an actor. He's gay. In high school and college he played all the lead male roles. He's tall, manly, great looking, can act, sing dance, he's very talented. The problem is he reads as gay. He's not flamboyant in any way, he just reads...a little gay. You see him on stage and think, "Wow, what a great looking... talented... charismatic...gay guy. He went to New York and never got the leads he wanted. Not because he wan't good, he just reads... gay. And most male leads tend to be written as straight. Not because of any bias, it's just that 90% of the male population is straight. It's just the facts. Even in New York theater, which is packed with gay writers, gay casting agents, gay actors, gay directors, you name it. Most male leads tend to be written as straight. He played every gay friend, waiter, designer, nosy neighbor, all of it. He just never got cast as a straight lead because it would be ridiculous. Even he admitted it. There may be some bias in casting, but sometimes there are reasons right in front of you.

"There may be some bias in casting, but sometimes there are reasons right in front of you."

Funny how that bias never works in reverse. Straight actors are cast as gay all the time and no one fears that they "aren't believable"

Didn't Neil Patrick Harris play a believable skirt chasing straight man for 9 years on that sitcom? And wasn't it consistently popular, even with straight audiences? Strangely, none of my gay friends ever watched that show, but my straight friends did.

Straight man Darin Criss can believably play a straight man every time he strides across the stage.

R437

True

Dan Futterman and Bobby Cannavale played gay roles (albeit on W&G), and yes nothing happened to their careers. Yes, it was television but still...

Will Hurt played an effeminate gay in film "Kiss of Spider Woman"

And so it goes....

Think television and theater are different. Lord knows for the latter gay men have been playing straight roles for ages..... It really is mainly Hollywood/big budget films where you see issues.

That's because Neil Patrick Harris is super butch.

If you say so R442

[quote]Didn't Neil Patrick Harris play a believable skirt chasing straight man for 9 years on that sitcom?

Part of the reason is that it wasn't ONLY his show. Also the character was a known "metrosexual" who often did what straight audiences would consider "feminine."

Very few openly gay men have ever carried an entire movie or a TV series and they usually don't get the chance to. All it takes is someone knowing you are gay no matter HOW you actually act and that's it for you.

[quote]Think television and theater are different. Lord knows for the latter gay men have been playing straight roles for ages..... It really is mainly Hollywood/big budget films where you see issues.

In an interview Matt Bomer said there were people, who were openly gay men in Hollywood, who would not hire him / turned his back on him after he came out. He was also asked by Michelangelo Signorelli to name names and he flat out said no, he wouldn't. He didn't want to talk about it in more detail. The point was that even gay producers/gay people who work in casting / etc. don't wanna take a chance and hire an openly gay actor.

So while we have people like Greg Berlanti and Ryan Murphy who will hire gay actors as part of a large cast, you can count the times on less than 5 fingers they've hired an openly gay man to carry a film or TV project.

Berlanti couldn't even be bothered to do it for "Dear Simon" while asking every power gay in Hollywood to help promote it.

Sometimes the call is coming from inside the house.

Two queens review TSOM with Carrie Underwood.

Well Esquire loves James Marsden, even if some of y’all don’t!

… CAA

Bomer is perfect except no sex appeal and cannot smoulder.

"That's because Neil Patrick Harris is super butch."

And yet the straight people I knew were all surprised when he came out. Yet the people here will insist that he's not believable as straight. Same thing with Bomer. I knew straight people who watched White Collar and didn't have a clue that he was gay. But people here will say he's too nelly for straight roles. I mean, if someone as delicate as Timothee Chalamet can play straight roles....

NPH pinged ever since his Doogie Howser days. Will give you there likely were/are those who never picked up the scent, but others long had NPH's number and were not all shocked by his coming out. Same with Ricky Martin and a few others that supposedly shocked the world when they came out as gay.

Plenty of people knew about Lance Bass, but his handlers and others kept that bit of news quashed tightly as possible to protect the franchise.

Lance Bass isn't an actor (unless you count that awful rom-com he did) - not sure why you even mentioned him. Ricky Martin acts occasionally but is primarily a singer.

Weird how so many gay actors in the past successfully played straight roles - going back to the silent era with Ramon Novarro - and yet posters here insist that no gay actors today can play a straight character.

R449 Timothée is straight.

Don't think many of us are arguing gay actors cannot convincingly play straight roles; but rather suits or whoever aren't largely interesting in putting their money into such casting.

Also to be fair old Hollywood gay actors/film stars weren't out, though will give you plenty knew their tea.

It was the sordid details of Raymond Navarro's death that "outed" that actor IIRC. Others like Caesar Romero, Van Johnson, Dirk Brigade, Cary Grant and other A-list film romantic or whatever leading men wouldn't dare for it certainly would have meant end of their careers.

Odd ball in this whole argument is Clifton Webb who everyone knew was gay but was frequently cast as love interest (or even married) to women.

r452, Yeah, that was my point. He might be straight, but he certainly isn't BUTCH.

Many people thought George Sanders and Tony Randall were gay too, but they both were gay-acting straight men. Neither of them really played gay men oin the screen, although Addison de Witt SHOULD be gay--the screenplay seems inexplicable when he blackmails Eve into being his lover.

Tony Randall had his own sitcom as a gay man.

Or does he blackmail her into being his beard?

R455

Some British men come across as effete regardless, this applies to actors as well.

Just look how easily many Americans believed Jeremy Irons was gay from his portrayal of Charles Ryder in Brideshead Revisited.

Charles Ryder goes on about his "pansy friend" (Anthony Blanche), and one was like at the time "look who's talking....".

Addison de Witt wouldn't need a beard IMHO. He was powerful enough and at top of his game that even if gay few people in the business would dare to cross him, and those outside of it likely would find their own reasons for not bothering.

Don't you mean Anthony Andrews as Sebastian? I thought Andrews was terrific on that series, yet he didn't turn into a breakout star.

Matt Bomer is handsome, but yet to see an amazing performance from him. His performance in Magic Mike was adequate, but nothing to sneeze about other than his perfect looks.

De Witt wanted someone to personally have power over, even if it meant fucking someone he wasn't particularly into for the sex.

It would only take some sordid business in a restroom and Addison might meet his waterloo.

I assumed Eve and Addison were both gay. No fucking.

R460

Both Andrews and Irons pinged to high heaven in Brideshead Revisited; hence reasons so many were quick to believe Charles and Sebastian were lovers, or at least there was some sort of homosexual attraction going on.

Anthony Andrews has had a perfectly decent career for a British actor.

Well there was a scene where Charles and Sebastian were lying naked in the sun, and showed their backsides to the camera. So that also gave indication they were interested in seeing each other nude.

There wasn't a single gay man in main roles of film "Maurice" yet it didn't harm their careers or affect their acting.

R466

You cannot go by that, not at all.

Despite rumored Victorian or Edwardian prudery that largely applied to women or mixed company. British men (straight or whatever) when in their own company such as bathing (as at a beach or wherever) did so nude. There is a scene in film "A Room With A View" where a bunch of Englishmen for for a swim totally nude and no one thinks anything about it.

You also have to understand how the British (and Germans for that matter) often brought up boys. By early school years onward they were largely in company of other boys/males. Things like sending young boys off to all male boarding schools, colleges, etc... In an environment totally devoid of women it there isn't anything to worry about going around naked when it's all lads together.

You notice how quickly Sebastian and Charles reach for towels and blush when Cordelia shows up.

Kevin Spacey was determined to prove otherwise...

Come to think of it wasn't there a gay sex scene between Raul Julia and John Hurt in film "Kiss of the Spider Woman"?

Looking at you, M.

R462

Actually always saw it that Addison de Witt wanted to be power adjacent. He saw that Eve was going to become a big star on stage and possibly screen and wanted to get in on the ground floor if you will. Husband of a famous Broadway or Hollywood actress back then would have expanded Mr. de Witt's range of power and access to same. Instead of being merely a critic the guy could work his way into producing and other things if not just for Eve. If that went well enough Addison could build a power base independent of his wife then discard her when no longer needed.

Is that why Vincent Price pursued his wife, the actress Coral Browne?

Marsden in certainly nice looking and I would have been very happy to look like him but I was expecting to be flattened by his good looks. I wasn't.

Why hasn't Colton sung on screen yet?

P.S. to R472

As Eve became more famous her bank balance grew. Addison de Witt may have been a famous critic or whatever, but that job didn't pay very well. Marrying Eve would have given him access to her money whether he had to kiss or kick it out of her.

Re: Brideshead, to me the book and series read that Sebastian was gay but Charles wasn't, hence the eventual falling out. I think Charles was enamored with Sebastian, but when it came to actually doing the deed they might have once or twice but it wasn't Charles' thing. Sebastian, in love with Charles, becomes a drug addict and ends up in Morocco or wherever with his drug addict boyfriend. Isn't that basically what happens?

It was great seeing their asses again, but boy were they both skinny and hairless up front.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Some say the real life (at least in part) Anthony Blanche was Brian Howard, a contemporary of Evelyn Waugh . Nancy Mitford drew from same when creating Cedric in "Love In A Cold Climate"

More

R478

Scrawny white man with flabby behind Jeremy Irons might have been, but far as 1980's and good part of 1990's he was sex on a stick far as many gay men were concerned. The guy could stand there are recite the A-B-C's and get some people off.

IIRC many gay bars hand BR on television (sometimes large screen) and those nights always drew a crowd.

Did Jeremy ever end up marrying his son?

Anthony Blanche actually has two models: Brian Howard, yes, but also another among Waugh's circle at Oxford, Harold Acton.

The novel is pretty clear that Charles and Sebastian had sex--Charles talks about their friendship had "its naughtiness high in the catalogue of sins," and Cara (Lord Marchmain's mistress) tells Charles in Venice, regarding his relationship with Sebastian, "I know of these romantic friendships of the English and the Germans. They are not Latin. I think they are very good if they do not go on too long." She is referring to the fact that many british upper-class men have "romantic friendships"--early sexual relationships--with one another, but that those relationships often disappear when they leave all-male public schools and universities: Waugh himself had sexual relationships with his closest friends at oxford, but then only had relations with women as an adult.

That remains me of a quote from Patrick Macnee about his schooldays: "Never buggery, dear boy!"

[quote]Raymond Navarro's

[quote]Caesar Romero

[quote]Dirk Brigade

Oh, dear, dear, dear.

I kind of like the name "Dirk Brigade"

Joan Jett and the Dyke Brigade.

[quote]Wasn't there a rumor going around that the revival was built around Marissa Tomei of all people? Acting wise, she might have been great, but I've never heard her sing or seen her dance. Then it was Jane Krakowski for bit who had a fight with Neil Simon over something she found anti-woman in the script and she got the boot.

Jenn Elfman was also mentioned for the part at one point, and I think she came very close to getting it before Applegate game into the pictuer.

Sorry, Jenna Elfman.

Wasn't Jenna Elfman set to take over in NINE but she missed her start date and the publicist claimed that she was preparing for the role in LA and would join at a later date? Elfman never joined the cast.

There was something off about Elfman's departure from Nine. Maybe she couldn't sing it like Faye in Sunset Boulevard. Speaking of actors who can't sing being cast in musicals...

JUST YESTERDAY, I heard from a very reliable source the reason for Elfman's swift departure from NINE. What I heard was that she could not sing but got the part anyway, for the wrong reasons. Somehow she kept it through whatever rehearsal period she had, and then I believe it was during her put-in rehearsal that she completely crashed and burned vocally, so she was replaced by her understudy, Sara Gettelfinger.

Speaking of crash and burning, how is Miss Gettelfinger? She's probably well used to lockdown.

Do the directors or producers of these musicals ever actually see if these star replacements can sing the score? It seems so odd that you'd cast someone not known for their singing and give them a large role in a Broadway musical with 8 shows a week.

I'm sure the producers of Chicago don't give a fuck anymore since that show basically prints money, but you'd think other producers would be a bit more careful. Do these actors just flat out refuse to come in and sing for a musical director or something?

Sandahl Bergman used to be their go-to in LA when Reinking was asking whether a Hollywood star or reality show star could do the show on Broadway.. Cheryl Burke was turned down because of her singing and judging from who's been in the show, she must have been really dreadful.

You mean Bergman would have a session with the LA based stars?

I cannot stand Jenna Elfman

R497, correct. When the Weisslers had someone in mind, Ann would send them to her and she'd give them some steps to do and perform a song.

R461 You might have to watch The Normal Heart, then. Or The Sinner. The season sucked, but his acting was excellent.

He was fine in "The Normal Heart." Not revelatory.

I couldn't make it through The Sinner. Totally boring, convoluted story.

R498, I like the fact that she says she doesn't mind when people still call her "Dharma," I hate the fact that she's still involved with that psycho Scientology stuff which probably makes her even more insufferable.

R461, He wasn't anything special in "The Normal Heart." He won that Golden Globe for his extreme weight loss / destroying his looks. Acting wise he didn't do much other than show his naked ass.

From what I saw of the Sinner though, he was excellent, even when he was once again showing his naked ass. Although the season was so bad I felt embarrassed for everyone involved. It was worse than Season 2.

The Sinner was interesting, although I didn’t watch the earlier seasons, so that might be why some people were disenchanted with it. What was a bit problematic was the whole series is a runaway train and should build being more frenetic as it moves towards the end, but there was too much padding in the episodes and two less would have tightened it up and made for a better show.

R503, Russell Crowe sings more than well enough for that shitty score. Good singing isn't going to help it. And in a movie, good acting is essential. Park and bark isn't viable anywhere but the opera stage. And even then, the barking needs to be damned good. The music almost always is.

If you can't build a musical around a performer then they're not a musical performer. They're just faking it. It doesn't mean they can't appear in a musical and be adequate, like Gosling, or Steve Martin in Pennies From Heaven, or Renee Zellweger - or Audrey Hepburn (albeit dubbed) in My Fair Lady. But you're not going to the movie to see them because they're great musical performers. No one (maybe I'm wrong, correct me if I am) Is clamoring for more Ryan Gosling-Emma Stone musicals, they didn't take off like Fred and Ginger in the public imagination. No one is begging to see more tap dancing from Channing Tatum. You could build a musical around Fred Astaire, thank God, or Judy Garland, or Julie Andrews, Gene Kelly, Streisand, even Jane Powell, etc. because people wanted to see them, specifically, show off their musical gifts. Prince, too. Etc.

Anyway it's a very simple point but why make musicals at all if you don't make them for musical performers? Why??

I don't get all this shit about Audrey Hepburn in The Sound Of Music. What a horrible idea. Wasn't she mediocre enough in My Fair Lady? She had zero talent as a musical performer but y'all would rather re-cast the most popular musical of all time with this person (I love her but she's not dynamic at ALL). I was taken to see TSOM as a child and Julie Andrews was f-r-e-s-h at the time. A brand new movie star - though well known because she had done TV and everyone had the album of My Fair Lady. She was also young enough to play a novice nun. And she was awkward and somewhat gawky and lovely and just perfect for the part. It's not the greatest movie but without her it would have been real shit. Maybe especially with poor Audrey Hepburn being filmed through gauze filters trying desperately to look 15 years younger.

Julie's great in "The Sound of Music", but Doris Day would also have been good, too. But the freshness and newness to the film world and her excellence really made Julie terrific in the role.

It would have been grand to see Doris and Julie in a movie musical together, trying to out-butch each other.

One of Hollywood's great blunders was never casting Doris as a nun. Any actress worth her salt needs to play a nun at some point in her career.

[quote]I don't get all this shit about Audrey Hepburn in The Sound Of Music. What a horrible idea. Wasn't she mediocre enough in My Fair Lady? She had zero talent as a musical performer but y'all would rather re-cast the most popular musical of all time with this person (I love her but she's not dynamic at ALL). I was taken to see TSOM as a child and Julie Andrews was f-r-e-s-h at the time. A brand new movie star - though well known because she had done TV and everyone had the album of My Fair Lady. She was also young enough to play a novice nun. And she was awkward and somewhat gawky and lovely and just perfect for the part. It's not the greatest movie but without her it would have been real shit. Maybe especially with poor Audrey Hepburn being filmed through gauze filters trying desperately to look 15 years younger.

Thank you. Audrey had some of the qualities necessary for Maria, but not all. Including (or not including) a beautiful singing voice.

[quote]Julie's great in "The Sound of Music", but Doris Day would also have been good, too. But the freshness and newness to the film world and her excellence really made Julie terrific in the role.

Doris Day was 13 years older than Julie Andrews, which would have been very detrimental to her performance in THE SOUND OF MUSIC. Plus I think it would have been grating to have someone so American in the part, whereas somehow Julie with her Brit accent is a much better fit, especially since the rest of the cast either already spoke in or were taught to speak in those mid-Atlantic, Brit-adjacent accents.

Well if a middle aged Texan woman could make the role of Maria Von Trapp legendary I don't see why Doris couldn't have played her.

NO ONE could have done The Sound of Music as well as Julie Andrews did it, period. Doris Day was far too old. Audrey Hepburn couldn't sing and was also too old. The whole conversation is absurd. Andrews was perfect for the part and deserved an Oscar for it.

Barbra Streisand auditioned for Liesl in the original Broadway production (or for a replacement) of "Sound of Music".

That "dirty duke" was likely looking for love in wrong places; with Thomas.....

Don't know why this plot line is so alien to some of you; it is Maurice and Scudder if you will.

Nope, R513. No, no, no.

Petula Clark would have been every bit as good as Andrews. Maybe better. She is the better actress, a fine singer, and at the time SOM was made, she was every bit as young and fresh as Andrews, without being even half as cloying.

[quote] Well if a middle aged Texan woman could make the role of Maria Von Trapp legendary I don't see why Doris couldn't have played her.

Mary Martin may have been able to pull it off on the stage, but an older Maria, which Doris Day would have been compared to Julie Andrews, wouldn't have worked on the big screen.

Broadway productions can get away with casting actors too old for the role but film generally won't be as forgiving. Lucille Ball in "Mame" is the prime example. Obviously Day wasn't quite as old but Andrews' youth and freshness worked well. An older woman behaving like one of the kids would have looked creepy and disturbing.

Katharine Hepburn should have been Maria. Give the piece a "Summertime"/"Summer Madness" twist.

A slightly older Maria might have added to the dramatic import of her decision to stay in the convent or stay with the Captain.

Olive Deering would have made something substantial out of that.

Mother Superior should have said to Maria I am so happy to have you back here. The Captain would have remained with the beautiful ravishing Elsa who was dressed by the best couturiers and gave great parties, the kids would have been shipped off to boarding school and every gay would have cheered. And the hot Rolf would not have been shot after they found out he fucked up by letting the Von Trapps escape.

[quote]Julie's great in "The Sound of Music", but Doris Day would also have been good, too. But the freshness and newness to the film world and her excellence really made Julie terrific in the role.

Doris Day was the same age as Judy Garland. Now kids we know Judy Garland was a mite long in the tooth to play Maria in TSOM, right? (Though that would have been fun in a train wreck sort of way.) (Don't @ me. I love Judy.) Please put on your musical comedy thinking caps. Arthur Freed will be grading you.

That means Doris Day (nee Kappelhoff), despite being Germanic enough in theory, was also too old to play Maria. She was also too Cincinnati to play Maria. TSOM was released at a time when Doris was already starting to play the mother of teenagers (in With Six You Get Eggroll). Although later, on her TV show, she got younger, and played the mother of young boys. She then got even younger, forgot she even had children, and played a swinging single in San Francisco - on the same show. But I digress. The point is she was 43 in 1965 and was even offered the role of Mrs. Robinson in The Graduate (1967).

Maybe you're thinking: "Doris Day should have played Nellie Forbush in South Pacific". She was way too old for that too but not as old, it was only 1958.