Official Hollywood on Netflix Viewing Party

Good job choosing an eye catching image and launching thread, thanks!

Or you can call it "Official Hollywood Steaming/Streaming Pile Of Netflix Shit," OP. Most of their shows are shit these days.

Starting it now...

The first ep is only 45 minutes I see, still writing as if they gotta leave time for commercials.

I’ve only watched the first episode so far and all I can say is Corenswet should stick to aftershave commercials. He is so flat.

R5 His performance in the first episode reminds me of Ryan Phillippe in 54.

WTF! Anybody with rudimentary knowledge of Hollywood history knows that Peg Entwistle jumped off the Hollywoodland sign and it said that until 1949.

Corenswet makes me wet.

I basically agree r5, good looks aside, I don't think he brought a lot to the role in ep 1 at least. The character has a monologue about trying to prove he is more than a pretty face, but Corenswet himself didn't quite manage it.

The younger actors aren’t impressive at all. Just please tell me we won’t have to seem them anymore.

Love the Blanche Devereaux wallpaper in Patti's hotel room.

I thought the guy that played the black screenwriter actually managed to create a dynamic three dimensional character in the pilot r10.

Of course he wasn't hot enough for the way the script is written, the way Dylan McDermotts character was carrying on about him.

R11 That would be the iconic Beverly Hills Hotel wallpaper, which, since you can still purchase it, was an easy enough find for the set designers.

R11 you must be the only one who doesn't know that "Martinique" wallpaper is more associated with the Beverly HIlls Hotel than Blanche's boudoir.

Does Dylan McDermott have the corona?

There's already been repeated thread after repeated thread on this OP. Why did you find it necessary to come here and start another? Why? Why OP? Can you give us an intelligent, honest answer? Can you? Why would you come here and post this kind of shit yet AGAIN when there have already been so many prior threads on this EXACT same subject. Do you really think this is that damned interesting that it warrants another entire thread to be started? DO YOU??

Why couldn't you have done a search first OP? That would have been the polite thing to do. What you demonstrated was just plain selfishness. You have shown that you don't think about anybody but yourself. It's all about you and your own satisfaction. Next time before you post, do us all a favor and do a search. We don't need another duplicate thread just because of your laziness.

How gay is this?

How much ass and torso do we get from Corenswet?

Any dick? (at all)

This will determine how much I should actually waste my time.

All the nudity has been posted on Auscaps

3 episodes in and my biggest takeway is that Darren Criss can't convincingly play straight if his life depended on it.

R16 Because I posted “Is there to be an “official” thread? Will someone prepare it?” in all those other threads and OP followed through and did a great job!

Why is the guy playing the head of Aces Studios channeling Rob Reiner?

[quote]Because I posted “Is there to be an “official” thread? Will someone prepare it?” in all those other threads

Three, three, three times a moron.

This is a retelling of old Hollywood and not historically accurate. Basically a what if told in old Hollywood. Murphy had great success with Feud but got sued by Olivia DeHavilland for making her look bad, so he created a whole fake hollywood.

Episode 3 Pulled the threads together nicely.

I thought Henry Wilson’s story about his boyfriend dying in a car accident was just a reworking of the Montgomery Cliff/Elizabeth Taylor car accident. The cradling in his arms might have been, but the rest is real.

The dialogue so cringy. And not just talking about the lewd stuff. Ive seen many of the younger actors be decent to great in other stuff but this cheese ball dialogue is hard to make convincing. Corenswet is awful in this and many of their characters are bland as fuck. I loved Criss in Versace and obviously he was given a lot of material to work with there, but hes almost non existent here. The gave him nothing with this character to the point where he has to rely on charm to make it be a decent performance. I cant fault with the material he got. Too many characters and not enough real dramatic tension. I dont mind happy go lucky shows but there is a sort unsettling fakeness about this show even if the overall message is a positive one.

Also I'm disappointed the lead actors only got down to tidy whities while some extras went all the way nude. Darren Criss only going shirtless makes me wonder if he used producer power to nix any more. Also maybe they didn't want his "gee golly" character to have too riske of a scene. Murphys writing isnt always the best but this shit is a new low.

Where’s the cock?

R14, you must be the only who doesn't know that on DL The Golden Girls trump anything, especially the Beverly Hills Hotel.

I'm only in the middle of ep. 2, but I am not hating it. It's at least partly because David Corenswet exists to be adored, cherished, and revered by every single person in every single room he enters.

This was disappointing on so many levels. The acting is terrible and the dialogue and production values are meh. Also, that trailer was all about sex. No real nudity from any of the lead actors. I’m glad the critics didn’t spare this one.

[quote] too riske of a scene

Oh, dear.

R32 sorry. I knew that, just had never wrote it before and was typing fast.

Put a wig on Jim Parsons and he's Alison Janney.

I know Ryan Murphy is believed to not abuse the casting couch and to be somewhat asexual, but are we really to believe he let David Corenswet slip through his legs?

The first episode in, I love the production values, and Patti LuPone is great at this kind of role (she's in some ways playing herself--the rich bitch who's kind at heart if always complaining), and Dylan McDermot is also perfect for the part he's playing: a former great male beauty who has gone to seed, but is full of optimism. I wonder if it was specially written for him. He looks his age here, although his profile is still spectacular.

The writing is awful, though--it makes no sense whatsoever that Ernie would have not told Jack that he was expected to service a man in the trailer given the homophobia of the day (he would have slowly told him he was expected to do this before he was expected to do it). It also makes no sense the Golden Tip would not advertise what brand of gas it sells, or that it would have a name like that that would just draw attention from cops.

David Corenswet is beautiful--he so much fits the Ryan Murphy type of Black Irish male beauty. He is not much of an actor, though.

This would have been great if Murphy wasn't involved.

Jim Parsons was awful

The first episode was really boring but the later episodes were slightly better.

So no ass from Corenswet, Criss, or anybody. You've got to be kidding me. This is Ryan Murphy after all.

I am halfway through Ep 2 and maybe because of the bad reviews lowering my expectation, but I am enjoying it. Dylan Is fantastic in this as is Samara. Just enjoy it for what it is!

R40 we will always have Versace though.

The lack of butts in this is incredibly odd r40. Especially given the subject matter.

I agree with the Hollywood Reporter review that you can't just simplify social change and progress to instant success overnight.

And biopics haven't even told the stories of Scotty Bowers and Henry Wilson truthfully yet, which is what they deserve.

But so far, HOLLYWOOD has some great eye candy at least — from the period sets and costumes to beautiful actors.

It's blah

Episode 3 has cocks and butts throughout. You thirsty whores! Loving the guy playing Rock. Gorgeous.

The Peg Entwistle namedropping and rumination is highly pretentious. But very much in keeping with Ryan Murphy's "Everybody Is a Star!" theme/delusion.

I could not get through the pilot. I don't know they managed to make a movie about something as titillating as covert sex less sexy. It is tedious and unbelievable and banal. I gave up shortly after the character went underground as a policemen to a gay movie theater to do, ahem, research. Is there any outfit on earth that would have allowed him LESS ability to see what happened in a place like that? It was too absurd for me to get past and accept. If that is the kind of writing and plot devices they use so quickly in the story, I have no interest in seeing what other ridiculous shit they throw in there. I am willing to believe that now is just not the time to think about frivolity like this, but I might have gotten hooked had there been some intelligence and drama. What a colossal fail, and pretty David Corenswett is not enough to make me want to keep watching. Nothing is.

[quote]you must be the only one who doesn't know that "Martinique" wallpaper is more associated with the Beverly HIlls Hotel than Blanche's boudoir.

I didn't know that either.

So what is it about? Is it old Hollywood scandals brought to the screen? I'd love that. The Lupe Velez suicide, and other Hollywood Babylon stuff would be fun.

That's only the first episode, r18. We may yet get dong.

I will take great umbrage if we don't get to see Corenswet's bum.

The "worst of Murphy's career"

DAMN!!!

You don't. All the nudes have been posted on Auscaps which was linked above.

[quote] WTF! Anybody with rudimentary knowledge of Hollywood history knows that Peg Entwistle jumped off the Hollywoodland sign and it said that until 1949.

It's one thing for you as a proud Mary to know that, but do you really think Johnny Lunchpail and Sally Housecoat will know that?

[quote] you must be the only one who doesn't know that "Martinique" wallpaper is more associated with the Beverly HIlls Hotel than Blanche's boudoir.

Mary II!

You queens have to ease up on other people for not being as encyclopedic in their knowledge of Old Hollywood as you. You're becoming tedious.

Surely you must know the embroidered, cloth sanitary napkins worn by Viv and Olivia on Gone With the Wind were from Bloomingdale's!

Actually, r23, Ryan Murphy is just jumping on Quentin Tarantino's "fantasy rewrite of Hollywood" bandwagon.

Watch Inglorious Basterds and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

Btw I disagree- I think Jim Parsons is good in this.

Actually, r35, I don't mind the way McDermott ambushed Corenswet with Cole Porter. It was funny and good at conveying a lot of information quickly. I do think it could happen — the world is full of passive aggressive people like that who ambush or trick other people. One hears stories of gay porn producers who bait-and-switch hetero models all the time.

But you're right, that's probably not how it went down.

What I don't like is the other liberties they're taking with Scotty Bowers' true story. Bowers did not usually pander to or hook for women. Women NEVER did the drive-by hookups at the gas station. That was only men having sex with men.

If and when Bowers pimped or escorted for women, it was from his cocktail parties or connections. Bowers was more famous for throwing and bartending at private parties among Hollywood players. There, some women might get traditional gigolo or escort services. But that didn't entail a lot of sex. Women have rarely been into paying for hookups — never have been; never will. Bowers was more famous for networking or pimping for lesbians, such as finding dates for Katherine Hepburn.

r59 was meant for r36, sorry.

You're right, r48.

Murphy can pick some hot actors. But his prissy showqueen aesthetic is NOT HOT.

It's woke historical fiction of Old Hollywood, r50, in which minorities shut out from Hollywood power struggle against the system.

It borrows from the true story of true Hollywood gigolo Scotty Bowers, but doesn't explicitly depict him. It does explicitly namedrop and rewrite figures like Henry Wilson, Hattie McDaniel, Anna May Wong and Rock Hudson.

It's imposing a fantasy ending on Hollywood history, like Quentin Tarantino did with Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

R40 There's some partial side-ass from Corenswet when he's fucking Patty on the stairs but nothing more, alas.

Speaking of Corenswet, I didn't think he was as bad as some of you are saying. Not good, but good enough I thought. Unlike the guy playing Rock Hudson who looked constipated half the time he was on screen.

I agree the dialog was awful though, especially in the later episodes where it was often a version of:

[QUOTE] A:"Let's do this (incredibly anachronistic and progressive) thing!"

[QUOTE] B: "You can't do that, it'll bankrupt the studio!"

[QUOTE] A: We're going to do it anyway!

And then it turns out to be the most successful thing in movie history and Hollywood single handedly cures racism, homophobia and misogyny

This poll about Ryan Murphy is worth taking.

Jim Parsons: "Then there's the name, Roy Fitzgerald ... that ain't gonna work. Something like ... ROCK!"

DRAMATIC ZOOM

Jim Parsons: "Rock Hudson!"

I'm so embarrassed for everyone in this production now. My shoulders just cringed themselves off my back! But it was hilarious.

Jim Parsons: There is just one thing we need to get out of the way. I NEED TO SUCK YOUR COCK!!"

LOL! No fíng way

OMG Just when I thought this couldn't get any cheesier ...

[quote]I know Ryan Murphy is believed to not abuse the casting couch and to be somewhat asexual, but are we really to believe he let David Corenswet slip through his legs?

His character from The Politician died early on and made flashback appearances. He got all the early buzz from that series (he was the hottest thing on it) and I can see that as being a reason why he got a great role in this one. He's probably also cheap.

While I don't believe Murphy abuses the casting couch and is probably somewhat asexual and cold (I just think he knows sex sells and by now credible allegations would have come up about him if there were any IMHO) even if he weren't this is the wrong time to cause a potential #MeToo especially with a "new-ish" actor who can open their mouth for fame five minutes later.

[quote]So no ass from Corenswet, Criss, or anybody. You've got to be kidding me. This is Ryan Murphy after all.

You got some "Rock Hudson" pubes and a "corner" ass but otherwise as of episode 5 no nude so far. I find it funny they sort of traded off on that by giving distant, blurry, fast moving, full frontal dick from background actors.

This + American Horror Story's last season with only a quick blurry frontal from a lead leads me to think Murphy is pulling way back on nudity from his actors. Compare this with American Horror Story: Hotel and he's been moving backwards steadily for years.

[quote]Speaking of Corenswet, I didn't think he was as bad as some of you are saying.

He's supposed to be the person that initializes the story and his acting was flat as hell. It's made even worse when he shares the screen with Patti, Holland, McDermott, Jim Parsons or other seasoned actors. Nothing that comes out of his mouth sounds genuine. It's bad when you're in his position and there is absolutely nothing charismatic about you. I think this worked in The Politician but much more is expected of him here and he fails.

Jeremy Pope/Archie, the black screenwriter, was a surprise. When he got the chance his acting was excellent.

Jake Picking's "Rock Hudson" is too dumb to function most of the time but in scenes where he's supposed to be endearing because of it, it works.

This show isn’t on Netflix’s Top Ten and isn’t trending on Twitter which high profile releases usually do on the Friday they premiere... gonna call this one stillborn.

Was having Henry Willson dress up in seven veils and a gold-trimmed bra and dance like Salome before Rock Hudson in episode 3 something out of Robert Hoffer's book? Otherwise it seems really homophobic.

Speaking of 54, r6, did you notice Jim Parson's scene with Rock Hudson played almost EXACTLY like Mike Myers with Breckin Meyer??!

If Murphy is going to steal from something, why would he pick a flop that was panned?!

At least this campfest felt occasionally real:

R19: So is he gay or what?

Hey, gays, aren't you enjoying my very butch and macho performance?

I was really surprised to see Eleanor Roosevelt emerge in this particular story as the central voice of decency.

But I guess better someone who actually WAS a standard bearer for decency in the USA in the 40s than Anne Morrow Lindbergh (who ultimately plays the same role--defying historical truth--in The Plot Against America).

I loved the whole thing. I'm pretty easy to please. Give me something gay, in the 1950s, with well done sets, good eye candy and no musical numbers any day.

Why does Mira Sovino play that part with a Marilyn Monroe accent? Is it because of the (awesomely unflattering) platinum blonde hair dye? I thought she's supposed to be an elegant fortyish type at this point like Ida Lupino or Ann Sheridan.

I love it!!!!

Another thing about Dylan McDermott and Scotty Bowers:

The real Scotty Bowers was not a failed wannabe actor and bitter about it like McDermott's character.

The real Scotty was a handsome soldier who just liked to fuck and have fun. His battleship just happened to drop him off in L.A. after WWII, where he found he could get a lot of mileage out of the closeted queens of Tinsel Town.

Scotty and the other hustlers at the gas station were mostly his Navy buddies and other war vets who were handsome and just needed work after the war was over.

They didn't think like Ryan Murphy. There was no interest in beings stars. They were down-to-earth and chill.

Did they have vanity producer credits in the 40s.

The guy playing Rock Hudson looks nothing like Rock Hudson.

R79 But he does look like Brad Davis! Find him a biopic!

Car we ask retroactively for Darren Criss’ Emmy, Golden Globe and SAG awards to be returned?

They didn't name the character Scotty Bowers for a reason r77.

reply 5 2 hours ago

Best line:

Henry Willson to Avis: "How'd I know? Honey, I got a FINGER in every STINKHOLE in this town!"

I am going to use this from now on.

I love that name, R68.

R70, I immediately thought of that scene in 54 when Parsons said that.

I love Harriet Sansom Harris. She was great in her small role. I wish Marc Cherry used her even more on Desperate Housewives.

R68 &R84 I would use the term coffin birth.

Archie: "Rock, you can't do that. I don't belong to you."

Rock Hudson: "Well I belong to you!"

UGH.

This dialogue does NOT complete me.

Yeah, r77, he's a famewhore who wanted to cash in with a tell-all book

The reason is probably just because Ryan Murphy has a shallow understanding of his subjects, he thinks everyone thinks like himself and he plays fast-and-loose with history, r82. And he DID model Dylan McDermott after Bowers.

But who cares? I wasn't challenging him for making a different statement.

I just want people to have an appreciation for the true history they're taking liberties with.

Especially because this is the first time most people are hearing of certain realities.

The actress who played Vivian Lee is ugly and doesn't look like Vivian a bit. Fake voice too.

R90, what "certain realities"?

It's not a documentary

What do we know about the actor that played Rock?

Where was this Scotty Bowers service station?

I watched David Corenswet play Romeo in a live reading of Romeo & Juliet today ... and it pretty much confirmed for me there is not much else there than a pretty face.

“Ain’t nobody more alone in this town than me!”

... says the character whose adoring boyfriend is ROCK HUDSON and also sold a script to a major studio.

5777 Hollywood boulevard r94.

Watch the documentary if you want Scotty Bowers story.

Corenswet is not a bad actor, but nor is he a particularly appealing one. He had the benefit of bursting on the scene playing an idealized fantasy character: a rich, handsome, bisexual, confused, unhappy kid. Who wouldn't be attracted to a character in which we think "oh, I could have saved him, he had so much to live for!"? If his first role were something less idealized, I doubt his name would even be mentioned on this board.

r91 Who the hell is Vivian Lee?

It doesn’t have to be a documentary and it doesn’t matter that Ryan Murphy wrote a fantasy version, R92.

My points remain the same.

People should know the true stories behind the fantasy and Murphy should have waited until truthful biopics about Wilson and Bowers were made before making a misleading version.

The “realities” Murphy is masturbating with include REAL PEOPLE: Scotty Bowers, Rock Hudson, Anna May Wong, Hattie McDaniel, Henry Wilson and Vivien Leigh. Murphy admitted McDermott’s experience is based on Scotty Bowers, so quit trying to disqualify my points on a bullshit technicality.

What technicality? Again, it's not a documentary. He has every right to take liberties. And Scotty Bowers himself probably took some liberties with the truth

Can somebody translate r98?

And those rights aren’t in contention, dumbass.

Love it. Love Ryan Murphy. Love actors Best thing I’ve seen on television this year

[quote]You queens have to ease up on other people for not being as encyclopedic in their knowledge of Old Hollywood as you. You're becoming tedious.

No, we don't. This is Data Lounge.

I think I threw up a little in my mouth when Ms. Lupone orgasmed.

[quote]People should know the true stories behind the fantasy and Murphy should have waited until truthful biopics about Wilson and Bowers were made before making a misleading version.

There are people who are much more prolific than either of them who have never had a popular biopic made about them. However, because Ryan is talking about these people or even basing characters on these people they're getting attention again. Maybe that will lead to someone telling the truth about them? It doesn't have to be, "This has to happen" so that "This will happen."

Also a biopic about Wong would be the perfect film to make at this time in history. I'm more than sure someone out there is thinking about doing one right now because of this.

Awkwafina would be salivating.

[quote]What do we know about the actor that played Rock?

Military family. Born in Germany. Super into rap. Played hockey in college before dropping out.

He's also wearing prosthetics on the show on his "nose, ears, bottom lip and eyelids."

Oh, you mean is he gay? Not a damn clue.

And you’re ignoring my point again. It’s about ethics and a callous disregard for truths.

You’re free to lie. But being free to lie won’t stop everyone else’s freedom to criticize your lies, your deeds or your fantasies.

Episode 3 has full-frontal dong.

There’s some nice, fit beefcake at the George Cukor pool party.. But only the extras show nudity and it’s fleeting.

There’s a really hot bodybuilder who looks like Pietro Boselli from the backside. I’d love to know who that is!

Jim Parson's character is like that of a typical DLer - angry, bitter, lonely, bitchy, insecure.

I assume the powerful Hollywood character Joe Mantello plays who doesn't want to have sex with men (but who is sexually attracted to them nonetheless) is based on Ryan Murphy.

[quote] Jim Parson's character is like that of a typical DLer - angry, bitter, lonely, bitchy, insecure.

Since you're a DLer yourself, we can assume that comment is self-descriptive, r110.

Say what you will, it looks like Patti LuPone is having a ball.

[quote] Where was this Scotty Bowers service station?

It was a Richfield Oil station at Hollywood Boulevard and Van Ness.

R112, I said typical, not every.

What's Corenswet's story? Linked to anyone?

I did not intend to binge the entire thing in one sitting, but I did it. Great performances, all the way around. Playing Rock Hudson is an impossible task, but Jake Picking did as well as anyone could. One could not ask for a more inventive script. It was beautifully designed and produced. Costuming Lupone in clothing so similar to what she wore in Sunset Boulevard was distracting. If there was supposed to be an inside joke there, it was not working for me. Lupone should pick up some awards for this. She certainly created a strong and colorful character. Give the old woman the awards.

David Corenswet should get something for having to get it on with Patti Lupone. That was a lot to take in.

Jeremy Pope gave the performance of the evening. Holland Taylor was terrific. Someone should hurry and develop a property for Holland to play Bette Davis at the end of her life. The resemblance is striking.

[quote] [R112], I said typical, not every.

You're pretty typical.

They seem to keep it lowkey for some reason r116, but if you Instagram stalk you'll realize this is clearly his girlfriend

They seem to keep it lowkey for some reason r116, but if you Instagram stalk you'll realize this is clearly his girlfriend

Jim Parsons' character reminds me of my old boss in publicity. He was a closeted queen, but vile, mean, insulting, and very insecure.

I’m noticing some tonal problems with the show.

There’s no smooth transition or congruity between Patti LaPone crying her lonely eyes out about her ruined marriage then hopping immediately into a free-wheeling Bow-chicka-wow-wow moment with Corenswet.

Also, Rock Hudson's botched lines in his screen test were WAY over-the-top. They wouldn’t happen in real life and it doesn’t match the dramatic, realism of the rest of the show.

Lupone sure has a horse face. A face to match her voice. Can’t stand her screaming. Akin to a dying deer.

[quote]Jim Parsons' character is like that of a typical DLer - angry, bitter, lonely, bitchy, insecure.

[quote]Jim Parsons' character reminds me of my old boss in publicity. He was a closeted queen, but vile, mean, insulting, and very insecure.

Were we supposed to go along with the concept that Sheldon was a heterosexual?

About Rock stumbling through his lines and screen test, were they implying he was dyslexic or had a learning disability and if so is it based on something known?

Did Parson’s cull inspiration from fellow Texan Rex Reed?

Do you know who looks absolutely nothing whatsoever like Hattie McDaniel? Queen Latifah.

Its true that Rock struggled at remembering his lines r125. It's part of why it took him a while to land parts in Hollywood.

[Quote]The reportedly rather reclusive boy took odd jobs to help support the family and tried out for school plays, but could not hold parts because he could not remember lines. That failing dogged him in his early years in Hollywood, where he took 38 repetitions to say correctly the line: "Pretty soon you're going to have to get a bigger blackboard."

The actress who plays Anna May Wong is phenomenal. I want to see more of her. She brought so much dignity and class to her performance.

[quote]Jim Parson's

Oh, dear. NUMEROUS times in this thread. Cut it out.

[quote][R91] Who the hell is Vivian Lee?

Sara's sister. Bruce's mother.

Why would Eleanor Roosevelt not “believe that good government could change the world anymore” after she just dragged the U.S. economy out of a depression with New Deal government programs and rid.the world of Hitler?

That was totally a comment on Trump, not the Roosevelt era.

R21, Maybe because it is Rob Reiner.

R134 I did a triple take looking at him to confirm it wasn’t him, but didn’t bother to look him up. He looks terrible, worse than his father if that’s possible. And now that I know I think less of him, he was then just playing himself rather than a character then.

[quote] Why would Eleanor Roosevelt not “believe that good government could change the world anymore” after she just dragged the U.S. economy out of a depression with New Deal government programs and rid.the world of Hitler?

She did all that? Why did they even need FDR?

Speaking of Eleanor Roosevelt, I always appreciate her resigning from the Daughters of the American Revolution when they refused to let Marian Anderson sing at Constitution Hall in D.C. because she was black. From the presidential library here is a carbon of the letter she sent and the article that appeared in the press the day after. What isn’t so apparent is that February 27 is Marian’s birthday, a gesture made even more lovely. Of course it resulted in her performing on the steps of the Lincoln Monument to an in person and broadcast audience larger than ever could be imagined. The world needs more simple and powerful acts of resistance like this in the face of societal wrongs.

I’m enjoying it. Serious issues and timeless themes themes explored through a classic Hollywood fairytale. Beats the last few seasons of AHS.

I may be remembering this incorrectly but I'm almost certain that when Murphy closed the deal with Netflix he specifically stated that he would create shows that the whole family could sit together to watch it or something like that. That would explain why a show that is overtly about sex and even gay sex is so prudish and coy.

R139 this is not family viewing. You watch too much porn.

Do you know how to read? I've never said it was. I said what I said, it's not my fault you don't know how to read.

It's for sure making me horny as I watch. Basically because the movie is a masturbation fantasy. Not a whole lot of substance there.

I noticed some anachronistic language. Someone says "you're dating a sister?" Would that be said in 1949?

Also, when the agent says to Rock Hudson "It's my thing." I can't imagine any person using that phrase in 1949.

Also, like, isn't it really glorifying predatory behavior? George Cuckor's pool parties sound a whole lot like Bryan Singer's. I kind of admire that, actually. I can't stand this new Puritanism.

Gay characters? Gay kiss or sex? if not I don't care.

I didn’t watch in about five minutes I decided to fast forward for the sex and nudity we were teased with in the previews. There is a reason Patti hasn’t had much success apart from the stage the camera does not love her. She is no Jessica Lange who probably never work with Murphy again after that fiasco called The Politician.

R57 RM is a hack please do not compare him to the real deal Quentin Tarantino

I bet Netflix is regretting the deal they made with Murphy! Which one will we have to endure first. Nurse Ratched or the next painful season of American Horror Story.

I am 10 minutes in.

Why doesn’t Jack get a job? Why would he apply for a home loan without a job?

Why is Dylan McDermott seated so far away from him when he propositions him in a public place?

The whole thing looks so bright and over lit, the clothes are too neat and costumish. It looks like Disney’s Hollywood Studios.

Also very unfortunate to have Corenswet play against McDermott in the first few minutes. It’s obvious Corenswet is not a good actor.

Typically ridiculous Ryan Murphy production. Good eye candy and beautiful sets/costumes, but horrible acting from the younger cast while the older "name" stars go slumming. Outlandish revisionist history done without regard for accuracy or common sense.

I like Corenswet in The Politician but has revealed himself to be without talent in this. Boring.

Darren Criss still looks like a little boy so it's hard to convince anyone he's a man. His "acting" sure doesn't help.

That whole Salome thing with Willson and Rock Hudson was not only cringe-worthy but boring. And is there any evidence Rock ever had a boyfriend of color, or is he just being used as a plot device? I think we all know the answer to that.

Patti LuPone reminds me of when Blanche made over Sophia on Golden Girls and announced she had made “an eighty five year old woman look like a sixty five year old drag queen.”

The part should have gone to an actress twenty or thirty years younger.

Well, I made it to 28 minutes. Corenswet’s acting is THAT bad.

The idea that the hero would fake pulling a gun and arresting a black man is supposed to be humorous is HORRIFIC.

The series is only #6 on Netflix TV Shows and not in the Top 10 at all. Netflix’s mistake in giving Murphy free rein with his projects was not understanding that he has the tastes of a seventy-five year old gay man. I’m not sure who this project was supposed to appeal to.

Wow, Jake Picking makes Corenswet look like Daniel Day Lewis. It’s actually uncomfortable to watch him, I turned it off out of secondhand embarrassment.

Jeremy Pope is very talented and will have a future.

Jeremy Pope is the standout here

Jeremy Pope should play James Baldwin someday. But not for Ryan Murphy, who would fuck up his story.

He doesn’t look like James Baldwin

Ultimately the most glaring failure of this series is that there is a huge gulf between those who cannot act and those who can. I don’t think I’ve seen something like this in a Murphy series before, outside of his stunt casting like Lady Gaga in AHS (and it turned out she could act, just not when Murphy directed her.). Networks used to go through very rigorous castings, especially for unknown actors, I wonder if Netflix doesn’t do that.

FFS he doesn’t have to look exactly like Baldwin. But it seems like he could capture his unique essence and mannerisms.

Well, r127. They're both black. They're both fat. And they're both lousy actors. I think it was brilliant casting.

Having Eleanor Roosevelt come on to give a speech that only Hollywood has the power change anything was the the most cringey masturbatory bullshit r132.

The writers sure have a very inflated sense of their own importance.

The only good thing in this is Mira Sorvino.

I can't believe people are bitching about Queen Latifah. She's 52 years old. The Oscars in the film are set in 1947 when Hattie McDaniel was... 52 years old.

Both black. Both round. Both charismatic actresses. Both even 52. But that's not enough for some of the basement dwellers here.

I am going to credit the power of Hattie McDaniel's screen presence that no one could take her place. Which is as it should be for a black actress who could cut through the racism of the times and grab her well deserved Oscar.

Episode 1 and watching paint dry would be sexier. Hope it gets better.

The show makes Hattie McDaniel and Tallulah Bankhead an item. It should have a Rory Calhoun-Guy Madison meet-cute.

The use of the term “woman of color” here was sloppy. They would have said “colored.”

I thought the pairing of Darren Criss and Laura Harrier was totally unbelievable. They’re both bland and they had no chemistry.

JEREMY Pope is stellar

It's not well acted. The script is bad, too.

The weak link in this was Laura Harrier. She isn't particularly beautiful and she's a shit-poor actress. Not at all the person around which to build the Meg story line.

Darren Criss can be as heterosexual as he may want to be. I don't care. That's all his. But he reeeeeally can't play heterosexual on screen. No. Just no.

R167: Totally agree on Darren Criss. So is he gay or what? Also, the weak link is definitely Corenswet. No charisma at all. They should have made Jeremy Pope the lead.

The script is the major issue. Sure some of the acting could be better and could help carry the script, but at the end of the day there are major flaws in the conceit and the execution of this series.

Which is not surprising, that's what the critics were saying.

I am still happy to watch it and hope they make more, but it has major flaws and I had hoped it would be better.

Is the writing worse than Pose?

It’s much better than I expected, and I am not even interested in the subject matter

They would say “black” back then. Negro or colored

They wouldn’t say black

The writing is fine. It is all bigger than real life and entirely fantastical. Don't fight to bring this one down to naturalism and realism. Nothing in the film is natural or real. It's completely a fantasy riff with a gay perspective on everything in post-War Hollywood, right down to Dick Samuels' coffin lining. The designers even seemed to copy Lupone's wardrobe from "Sunset Boulevard."

They took every bit of gay gossip that ever came from Hollywood and mixed it up in a giant cocktail shaker and served it up. If they could have tightened up anything, I would have asked them to clarify just for whom the fuck the evil lawyer was working. Even Lupone barks at one point something like, 'I think I've fired you five times.' As long as the character stayed in the background, it was not so bad. But once he moved to the foreground and involved himself in some crucial elements of the story, there was some important explanation and background that was missing.

I wonder how insecure David Corenswet makes Darren Criss and Ben Platt feel when they are in scenes together. Looks wise of course, not acting.

In 1946, "colored" would have been the correct nomenclature. "Black" didn't happen until the mid-'60s.

You thick country piece of shit.

R175: They both can act circles around him. They don't ever need to feel insecure around him.

Negro was still widely used in The 60s

Okay, Jim Parsons and his Isadora Duncan dance was worth it.

[quote]You thick country piece of shit.

Winnetka, well, I would hardly call it "country"...

R178, Hollywood is all about looks, not talent.

You look like a nelly farmhand who just fucked a sheep.

Is that David Corenswet in OP's pic? Grabbed my attention for sure like what R1 says

So pretty in that pic. I might have to watch this series now, especially if its got Jim Parsons in it like R34 says, I fancy him too. He's got an incredibly beautiful husband already though

Was Rock really such a simple country bumpkin?

Nothing here is that eye brow raising r140. Game of Thrones had way more explicit sexuality and it was the biggest show in the world.

If you look at interviews orginally it was even more family friendly, and Netflix encouraged them to add more sex.

The sex is very tame and tasteful

Tasteful? The film shows men and women consorting with one another. I do not support this kind of fraternizing between the sexes.

well I'm glad the myth that darren criss is a good actor has been debunked. He has a juicy ass which he doesn't even show in this to distract the audience from his bad acting, and he's a midget. Whatshisface is hot but a terrible actor. Lupone is a one note cunt. Parsons is annoying.

R176, also they didn't call East Asians "Asians" back then. They were "Orientals." The political correctness over historical authenticity bugged me at first, until I realized this series is clearly historial fiction. It is only loosely based on real people and real events.

It has more than a few similarities to "The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel".

R191 Good observation, Ryan Murphy and Amy Sherman-Palladino are cut from the same cloth.

I love Holland Taylor but she looks exactly how old she is, 77 years old. Why would someone her age be employed in that position? The female life expectancy in America was 68 in the postwar era!

I get that it’s fiction, but they need to just acknowledge the entire universe In which it’s set is fiction. To have a major studio consider and make a movie not just with an African American romantic lead, but also an interracial kiss is to create a fictional version of 1947, not just Hollywood.

I get that it’s fiction, but they need to just acknowledge the entire universe In which it’s set is fiction. To have a major studio consider and make a movie not just with an African American romantic lead, but also an interracial kiss is to create a fictional version of 1947, not just Hollywood.

Well at least they didn’t completely strain credibility by having David’s character win a best supporting actor Oscar!

Garbage. I’m so done with it.

Holland Taylor is great here r193. Thank goodness she is here to help carry this thing.

R185 Winnetka Illinois is one of the wealthiest suburbs in America and has been that way for over a century. The Home Alone House is typical of the houses there.

R185 - I believe he was awkward, but the whole 'country' aspect they talk about is weird - particularly Winnetka, IL.

Most of you know Winnetka from various John Hughes films: Ferris Bueller, Home Alone, 16 Candles.

Personally, I really liked the series. The stilted acting from the leads may just be showing their naivety and undeveloped acting skills in their roles.

Some of you pick apart every damn thing. Did you really think there would be a 7 part series with that much sex? That's porn, folks - how the hell do you expect to put plot points in?

I think it's great that this got made - nobody else in Hollywood would make this with all of the gay scandal and gossip involved.

I'm glad I didn't watch it with some of you bitchy queens - you'd ruin everything with your personal critiques and need for exact accuracy.

Also it’s unlikely someone would just introduce themselves as “from Winnetka”, they would just say “from Chicago.”

Let's also talk about being publicly gay in 1948 r194. A time when homosexuality was still very illegal.

Joe Mantello is very good here and he makes me think he would have been good in that awful Amazon adaptation of The Last Tycoon - they cast Matt Bomer as a Jewish studio tycoon! Even in the 2010s they want to cast WASPs as Jewish studio execs.

R27 "tidy whities"? It's TIGHTY WHITIES, you goof.

So Patty Lupone got to make out with Corenswet? I wonder if that was in her contract.

R175: You don't think Darren Criss is attractive?

[quote] I get that it’s fiction, but they need to just acknowledge the entire universe In which it’s set is fiction. To have a major studio consider and make a movie not just with an African American romantic lead, but also an interracial kiss is to create a fictional version of 1947, not just Hollywood.

No, the film makers don't "need" to do anything in particular, except be creative and productive and true to their own vision of their creation. Others on this thread seem to have a lot of "needs" they are slathering onto other people's work.

There's also a lot of focus on race in this thread. Why are so many people insistent on denying black actors opportunities today, just because they were denied opportunities in the past? It's not about historical accuracy. It is not. We grow. We learn. We change. We do it every day. Our society does it. Societies around the world do it. But here in America, there is a steady stream of people, presumably not many of whom are black, who consistently insist on denying black actors opportunities. Rather than learn from a dark and shameful history, they insist on perpetuating it. I'm sure they feel free to change and adapt as they go along their lives, but they demand on prohibiting the same for others. Those people are so seriously fucked up.

There aren't many people here rolling their eyes and shaking their heads over a woman heading a film studio in 1947. There was significant creative output by black performers in Hollywood during that era, though not in major releases. But there were NO women running film studios. None. That's a major 'historical inaccuracy' in this film that no one seems to mind. So, when people complain about race and historical inaccuracy in a character or actor, it's rarely much about history. The actual truth of history is that things change.

Corenswet is beautiful but otherwise community theater.

The black guy is too ugly to be a sought after hustler/BF to Rock.

Darren can't play straight.

Male prostitutes who mainly have FEMALE clients? In what world?

A Vivian Leigh who sounds like she never stepped foot in England?

To seriously refer to a samesex couple as boyfriends during this era Is not believable

Jeremy Pope is quite goodlooking

[Quote]Why are so many people insistent on denying black actors opportunities today, just because they were denied opportunities in the past?

The problem with the writing here is not that it depicts women, black people, and gay people. The problem is that is that it presents an infantile version of their lives and problems and shows that if only they had tried harder everything would have worked out peachy keen.

It's a fantasy so cheaply written that the endings don't feel earned in any way, they feel cheap and schlocky and insulting to the audience and the stories Hollywood wants to highlight.

R207 I think the point is that if you're going to make a derivative fantasy story cherry picking and altering real life events you shouldn't pretend it's historically accurate.

I understand you don't want to deny black actors opportunities, but in a way this is a whitewashed version of history the way that some people wish it had happened, not the way it actually did. So in effect people will see this and think "oh blacks didn't have it that bad back then, what are they whining about" which works against things like affirmative action etc.

Black people existed in the 1940s, obviously, and there are plenty of opportunities for them in films where they aren't representing a whitewashed version of history and doing themselves a disservice in the process.

Exactly

[quote]Parsons is annoying.

He is awful.

He plays the villain as such a caricature, he may as well be twirling his mustache as he says every line.

Does this show have gay kissing and gay sex?

Oh gosh. The season finale 🙄

MTV

People on this thread are just too limited to accept a fantasy. The rut you're all stuck in is BORING. Don't drag the film makers down to your dull, middle class, dreary view of things.

For you folks, there will always be "Death of a Salesman."

"You’re free to lie. But being free to lie won’t stop everyone else’s freedom to criticize your lies, your deeds or your fantasies."

Doing a film/tv show about real people isn't "lying" - if you can't handle movies or tv shows about real people then don't don't watch them.

Ridiculous, fantastical

NPR: The result is confounding. What begins as a critique of media's tendency to cling to the same scrubbed, self-serving, cynical narratives that deny full humanity to women, people of color and queer folk becomes ... a tone-deaf paean to the Magic! Of! Hollywood!

This series got the worst reviews Ryan Murphy has had for a new show in his career r218.

It would behoove him to think of why and take constructive criticism to heart. I know Netflix will be thinking that, they have invested a lot of money into him.

You know, I was thinking how can it be worse than the Politician, but it is.

But it’s a great showcase for Jeremy Pope. He’s gonna be big.

[quote]But it’s a great showcase for Jeremy Pope. He’s gonna be big.

On RuPaul's Drag Race.

JEREMY is already big

CBS

This Rock Hudson looks like Jim Carrey and Dick York.

What I learned from watching this show:

*There are male prostitutes who can make great money servicing only women, and there are plenty of women in Hollywood of all ages who are willing to go out into the open to solicit sex.

*The Academy Awards is an absolute guarantor of true quality (unless someone is playing Santa Claus, in which case, all bets are off).

*All people needed to end racism and homophobia were to see people of color on the screen in good roles and to watch men holding hands and kissing on the red carpet. There was no need in the end for the Civil Rights movement in the 60s, because Hollywood could have changed that on its own fifteen years earlier if people had just stuck to their guns.

*Eleanor Roosevelt thought good government had failed America after Franklin died and thought Hollywood was the only answer

*Beautiful young people (and handsome pimps) who want to make it big are just brimming with natural acting, writing, and directing talent. They don't have to train very much at all to make it big--just give them a few words of advice, and their natural talents will rise to the surface and they will astound everyone and win all the prizes.

*Whores are great at whoring from the first time they do it and then always thereafter

*David Willson got where he was by screaming and being nasty to everyone. But if he had had the love of a good man, all that could have changed

*Vivien Leigh spoke with a fake British accent

*Rock Hudson was not just shy and tongue-twisted when he tried to make it in Hollywood, but also so stupid as to be nearly retarded. He also somehow had enough money before making it big (or even getting his first role) that he would go to solicit men from top dollar male brothels that charged $200 a pop in 1947.

*Studios could be legally given over entirely to someone's wife at the drop of a hat.

*Prostitution is exploitation of the poor, except when it's fun, which is usually.

The funny thing is in the last scene of the show McDermott says 75% of the gas station business was gay....but that's not what we saw on screen.

I love it. Great acting and storytelling so far.

R229 wins the thread

Henry Willson

Can you watch this somewhere without Netflix subscription?

Regarding the prostitution aspect one thing near the end I found confusing was that Raymond would at all agree to take part in coming up with the money when he was in a committed relationship with a woman. Also it got my hope up that Criss would be in more scenes like that. I wonder if he used producer power to nix any explicit scenes for himself. Anyway so much of this show felt half baked.

Jim Parsons is awful. Why is Henry Willson played like Tennessee Williams?

I'm surprised anyone here liked this overall. There were some fine performances salted in here and there, but the writing and plotting were awful, and there were some very weak performances.

R226: I hope he has a good career. If anything, he'll become apart of the Murphy klan.

It won't sit well with me if the only black male character is gay. I know my thinking is problematic, but it won't seem realistic because I know there were numerous alpha straight types who are black trying to be stars back then(harry belafonte, paul robeson, etc.) I'm only on episode 3 now so hopefully they get it right.

[quote]Jim Parsons is awful.

He is. And what was with that insane scene with him doing the dance of the seven veils for Rock Hudson?

How dare that character be gay, r239!

It's an insult to black manhood!

r241, Thats not what i was saying at all. But truthful representation matters, and makes for a better story.

So Rock Hudson was actually retarded then?

In pic 44 in R18's link, it looks like Corenswet is getting an erection.

From Patti Lupone! That's a first.

R242, this is not a truthful representation project

No it doesn’t r244

R245 The disclaimer that should be flashed on screen at the start of each episode.

Tom and Lorenzo's review, starts off with a reference to Datalounge.

“ The setting and time period could not be more perfect for Murphy’s particular brand and aesthetic, which we can sum up as “the pop culture obsessions of a white Generation X gay man.” From Popular and Glee rewriting the pains of high school social development into something bitchy and dance-able, to the high camp of American Horror Story and Feud: Betty and Joan, Murphy has (quite admirably, we note) made a career out of the bitchy, dishy topics of discussion at your average gay male brunch table or Datalounge thread.”

So true about middle age white gay obsessions

R175, no. Especially standing next to Corenswet.

Tom and Lorenzo are authorities on questionable perspectives. Feh!

I think Murphy is basing the Rock Hudson characterization on Don Graham's book on the making of "Giant," where Hudson is described as "pathologically shy" and "an awkward culturally illiterate Midwestern bumpkin." Other descriptions I've read of pre-stardom Rock are "clumsy and naive."

R240 it’s the awful “sissy villain” trope

This has nothing at all to do with the actual Rock Hudson. Until the day he died, the real Rock Hudson lacked the balls to come out of the closet. AT LEAST until the mid 1960's, I'd wager you won't find more than a scant few photographs of Rock Hudson with a black person. His brand was squeaky clean and he - and others - worked to keep it that way.

HOLLYWOOD is all one enormous creative exercise in "What If...." What if Rock Hudson had escorted a man to the Oscars in 1947 and had stood in front of Row A and had kissed him in front of 3,000 people? What if an Asian star had been allowed in to compete at the Oscars? What if a woman had headed a movie studio in 1947? We got to see the Asian family listening to the radio broadcast. We got to see the young black man listening alone in his room. Well... WHAT IF all those people had received that validation years earlier? Eleanor Roosevelt made the case that film could change things. So, what if Hollywood had used that tool earlier and more boldly? All the famous people we see in this film are archetypes. And the film makers use them to raise a lot of big questions. But not in any way is even a frame of this a film biography.

Maybe the actors signed on then realized what crap it was and backed away from the nudity.

R256 that doesn't really make sense but maybe. I think I read somewhere Murphy didnt want the sex scenes to be too graphic and wanted focus on romance. That was kind of a fail cause Criss/Harrier's scenes were awkward at times and what's romantic about someone buying sex?

What's romantic about eating out Patti Lupone?

It made no sense that an unemployed Rock Hudson would be paying over $2,000 (in today's money) for sex.

It made no sense that an unemployed Rock Hudson would be paying over $2,000 (in today's money) for sex.

[quote]People on this thread are just too limited to accept a fantasy. The rut you're all stuck in is BORING. Don't drag the film makers down to your dull, middle class, dreary view of things.

There are fantasies, and fantasies.

Tarantino's alt-realities work because they're pulp fiction revenge fantasies. The protagonists are anti-hero types who don't lecture or moralize, and aren't really "winners" or better people at the end even though they kill the baddies. You can see his history actually happening, more or less, if our hero was at the right place that one time or circumstances went his way. It's not about unbelievable anachronistic behavior and social frameworks.

Murphy's is like the fangirl who writes a fix-it fanfiction about her favorite show. Doesn't matter if she makes the characters or narrative completely wrong for the concept of the show, or completely unbelievable within it. She will fix 'the writers' mess' because she believes in her far superior grasp of everything than the show's writers.

I know hes straight in reality but Criss looks more comfortable getting intimate with a man on screen.

I know Winnetka would have been more rural when Rock Hudson grew up there then it is now (today it is a very wealthy suburb of Chicago), but just how much of a bumpkin could he have been coming from there? Ray Bradbury also grew up there, and so did Ann-Margret. Even earlier in the century it would have been close to Chicago. It's not like he came from St. Olaf.

"Tarantino's alt-realities work because they're pulp fiction revenge fantasies"

Translation: when straight guys do this it's fine, but when gay men do it, it's bad

R261 you are right. So much of the writing was exaggerated, bad Hollywood fanfiction.

[quote] Murphy has (quite admirably, we note) made a career out of the bitchy, dishy topics of discussion at your average gay male brunch table or Datalounge thread.”

Oh, fuck you, Tom and Lorenzo.

Those who live in bitchy, dishy glass houses should not be throwing stones.

[quote]he specifically stated that he would create shows that the whole family could sit together to watch it or something like that.

Or, nothing like that.

[quote]I know hes straight in reality but Criss looks more comfortable getting intimate with a man on screen.

He only has chemistry with men on screen. Every time he's talking with a guy, I just assume they are about to fall into bed together.

[quote]I know hes straight in reality but Criss looks more comfortable getting intimate with a man on screen.

He only has chemistry with men on screen. Every time he's talking with a guy, I just assume they are about to fall into bed together.

What whore is going to proposition a john and start getting down to business with a police officer (who they have seen) sitting two rows back?

What whore is going to proposition a john and start getting down to business with a police officer (who they have seen) sitting two rows back?

I agree about Darren Criss. Personally I don't think he is lying, I believe he is straight, but he is honestly better at playing gay than he is at playing straight.

R272 I felt kind of bad for Criss in those intimate scenes with Harrier. It would be like trying to have chemistry with a piece of wood. She is so bland and literally has maybe 2 facial expressions.

[quote] It made no sense that an unemployed Rock Hudson would be paying over $2,000 (in today's money) for sex.

He didn’t pay. Not that it would matter in what is essentially a fairytale.

Jeremy Pope's character ended up not charging him, but a very poor Rock Hudson had every intention of paying $2300 in 1947 value for sex. It's a valid point.

[quote]Translation: when straight guys do this it's fine, but when gay men do it, it's bad

Being gay doesn't place anyone above honest critique, cunt at R264.

If it's bad, it's bad.

Winnetka is only sixteen miles from Chicago’s Loop. It and the surrounding communities of Chicago’s North Shore have been monied, WASP suburbs for over 100 years. Even The Great Gatsby refers to polo ponies from Lake Forest, Illinois (Winnetka’s neighbor).

The Great Gatsby was even inspired by this house in Lake Forest.

[quote]Murphy's is like the fangirl who writes a fix-it fanfiction about her favorite show.

Murphy's work is best when he has someone reigning him in. Popular, the first few seasons of Glee, early Nip/Tuck, early American Horror Story etc. Feud was good, IMHO, but that was likely because like Versace he had to follow a template.

Unfortunately he's at the stage in his career where he doesn't.

[quote]This series got the worst reviews Ryan Murphy has had for a new show in his career

What he needs to do is sit down and focus on doing one thing since he has proven he can't have multiple irons in the fire. He's doing quantity over quality. He's no Greg Berlanti. Shonda couldn't even pull that off.

The next project he has airing is Ratched. If that also doesn't get critics to actually positively respond to his work he's Netflix is going to seriously rethink their decision to give him that much money.

[quote]If you look at interviews orginally it was even more family friendly, and Netflix encouraged them to add more sex.

I wonder if this attracted bigger/more refined stars. Then again Patti played a abortion doctor / witch in Penny Dreadful.

[quote]I wonder how insecure David Corenswet makes Darren Criss and Ben Platt feel when they are in scenes together. Looks wise of course, not acting.

People like Corenswet are only a threat when they can act. Otherwise they're a dime a dozen. Here today, gone today.

I don’t care whether Criss is gay or straight. My problem is that he’s so annoying. His big statement about not taking anymore gay roles was so pretentious and fake.

While it is true that Rock Hudson was not from some small country bumpkin town, he did have a very tumultuous upbringing and arrived in the entertainment industry as a shy guy who stumbled over his lines. He wasn't considered the sharpest knife, he was rejected from USC because of poor grades.

[quote]Feud was good, IMHO, but that was likely because like Versace he had to follow a template.

And he didn't write Versace (or OJ for that matter).

Seems Criss can be good only in certain type of roles. If the writing's not there or character isn't meaty, he flounders.

R283: He can really only play variations of himself. His awards sweep for Versace remains one of the most puzzling flukes.

How did David Corenswet get into Juilliard if he's such a bad actor?

R285: God only knows. Hollywood was a textbook example of eye candy that can’t sustain a show.

It was the type of role designed to get you an emmy r284. And Criss did okay at rising to the challenge. Sometimes quite effective, sometimes less so. But he did okay enough to ride the awards wave for an awards bait project.

R285, His father was a NYC theater actor and he was a child theater actor. Maybe he just auditions well but is boring otherwise?

He did say that he almost didn't graduate from Julliard and I think we know why now.

You think everyone who comes out of Julliard is a Meryl Streep r285?

You can tell David has been trained, it isn't like he is an incompetent actor. You can find some *bad* acting out there.

He just isn't particularly good, not yet anyway. He gets through his scenes fine, he just doesn't know how to make them sing the way an actor who excels at the craft can.

[quote] Jeremy Pope's character ended up not charging him, but a very poor Rock Hudson had every intention of paying $2300 in 1947 value for sex. It's a valid point.

Its a fairytale. It’s not a “valid point.”

[quote]And Criss did okay at rising to the challenge

In some scenes at least, it was the editing , directing, camera work that de facto created the 'dread and menace'. But people attributed all of it to his acting skills.

What was very evident to me when they were judging the two screen tests of Claire and Camille was that Claire was much, much better, even though Camille won the part--I think because Samara Weaving is a better actress than Laura Harrier.

Samara Weaving is so odd looking though. She has huge saucer eyes like Tim Burton's former muse Lisa Marie.

It's a piece of shit.

[quote] Its a fairytale. It’s not a “valid point.”

It's not a pure fairy tale at all--if it were, there would not be male prostitutes nor Anna May Wong nor period-correct wallpaper at the Beverly Hills Hilton. It takes place not in Narnia nor Oz, but in what is supposed to be a recognizable Los Angeles in 1947, not Narnia or Wonderland. It's skirting the border between romanticism and realism, but it's failing in the details where it's supposed to be realistic.

So yes, it is a valid point.

Well, I finished the whole series and I liked it overall.

It has flaws and I usually hate Ryan Murphy. HOLLYWOOD, the Versace CRIME STORY and NORMAL HEART are the only Murphy projects that I liked, though I didn't check out FEUD. His output is incredibly uneven. I think HOLLYWOOD goes to show you that the projects Murphy directs personally tend to be better than the 10 shitshows he delegates at once.

I agree that it's a fairy tale. But I disagree that it's "completely disingenuous about the arc of the moral universe." The hatred and backlash are depicted in the show. Some barriers, bigoted attitudes, protests and cross burnings do occur. Other consequences are discussed. So the social wall and real-world struggle is not ignored or trivialized. Much of the fairy tale is made possible by a studio chief's wife inheriting the company when her bigoted husband dies, which could happen.

ONCE UPON A TIME IN HOLLYWOOD was a fairy tale, but all the straight, male critics loved it. INGLORIOUS BASTERDS was a fairy tale and all the straight, male critics loved it. SLUMDOG MILLIONAIRE was a fairy tale and all the straight, male critics loved it. Was Murphy not giving them enough of the contrived violence they adore? Straight, male critics certainly don't care about Oscars, civil rights or being a "star" as much as Murphy does. Or are some critics just homophobic and used to Murphy as a shitshow factory?

Whatever the deal is, I don't mind letting gays, women and prisspots have their fantasies, too. Especially if it touches on real problems and experiences.

The acting was usually good. It's the most different thing I've seen McDermott do. I was touched by the subplot between the Dick Samuels and Ellen Kincaid characters. I've only seen Jake Picking play hard-partying douchebros, so I was totally blown away that he could play a sensitive pussy and closet queen.

I think people bashing the acting should consider that Picking and Corenswet were supposed to act poorly in their screen tests and some of their rehearsals before they were trained and directed in the story. There was also a period style of speaking they were going for in the early episodes that may have thrown you off. But the acting was adequate.

And Corenswet is fucking hot.

Also, the production design is top-notch. Wonderful period sets, costumes, cars, etc. that immerse you in the fantasy.

But I still think Bowers and Wilson deserve their own, non-fantasy biopics. And I still think there are tonal and dialogue problems. It would be nice if some leads would THROW US SOME ASS if we can't have full-frontal dong.

There are also some mixed messages about nepotism that I find gross. Rob Reiner's Ace studio chief character is villified for cheating on Patti LaPone and schtupping the actresses he hires. Henry Wilson is villified for having "a finger in every stinkpot in town!" The closeted Dick Samuels character prides himself on not fucking the help and Rock Hudson calls him "the only decent man I've met in Hollywood!"

Then why is it okay for Rock Hudson to schtupp the screenwriter? And consciously pursue the screenwriter thinking it will help his career? Why is it okay for Corenswet to date the studio chief's daughter? Why is it okay for the director to get his girlfriend the leading role in MEG? Aren't they all just as "indecent" as Ace and Henry Wilson? Aren't they morally inferior to Dick Samuels, too? Where's his problem with them?

The show romanticizes the nepotism when it's "the good guys." (!)

I'm also annoyed by the misplaced importance Ryan Murphy always gives to Oscars, stardom, major studios and Hollywood itself.

But overall, I would give HOLLYWOOD 3/4 stars. I gave ONCE UPON A TIME IN HOLLYWOOD 3/4 stars because it's also a great exercise in style and fantasy with only a modicum of genuine struggle. I gave SLUMDOG MILLIONAIRE 2.5 stars because it's so fucking contrived.

I notice the professional critics are giving HOLLYWOOD 60% approval and that seems about right.

[quote]Straight, male critics certainly don't care about Oscars, civil rights or being a "star" as much as Murphy does. Or are some critics just homophobic and used to Murphy as a shitshow factory?

Some of those 'straight male critics' are actually gay. But we can't let that fact derail a narrative.

[quote]t's not a pure fairy tale at all--if it were, there would not be male prostitutes

Pretty Woman was as fairytale as they come, and it was about a streetwalker.

It exists in a world where money is still real r290. Just because it is historical fiction that has literally nothing to do with this point.

[quote] It's not a pure fairy tale at all--if it were, there would not be male prostitutes nor Anna May Wong nor period-correct wallpaper at the Beverly Hills Hilton. It takes place not in Narnia nor Oz, but in what is supposed to be a recognizable Los Angeles in 1947, not Narnia or Wonderland. It's skirting the border between romanticism and realism, but it's failing in the details where it's supposed to be realistic. So yes, it is a valid point. —Not the person you were correcting

It’s a fairytale, plain and simple. As far removed from reality as it is. It may as well be Narnia or Oz. Ninety nine percent of it is unrealistic. Rock also has a car and he rents a room. How he pays for those is also unknown.

I read about this gas station owner....there is this guy in real life right? I think I read about this owner on DL many years ago..

You've definitely seen him talked about all over the DL and in this thread r300.

Scotty Bowers.

There was some eye candy in this, but not a smoking hot crop of Jawdropping 10s. My Instagram roll has hotter dudes

[quote]Murphy's work is best when he has someone reigning him in.

Oh, dear.

[quote]I hope he has a good career. If anything, he'll become apart of the Murphy klan.

Did you actually suggest that a black man become part of a KLAN?

[quote]Also it’s unlikely someone would just introduce themselves as “from Winnetka”, they would just say “from Chicago.”

A lot of people would have been familiar with Winnetka because of this song, which was famous in the '40s. Bette Midler even covered it in 1979. (Well after the setting of this series of course.)

R304 certainly knows how to jump on the ignorance of the American high school graduate.

CLAN, honey.

[quote] Winnetka is only sixteen miles from Chicago’s Loop. It and the surrounding communities of Chicago’s North Shore have been monied, WASP suburbs for over 100 years. Even The Great Gatsby refers to polo ponies from Lake Forest, Illinois

Rock’s father was an auto mechanic.

One of the most noticeable things about Rock Hudson was how big he was. He was a tall slab of a man who towered over people. Jake Picking is not.

And where is Picking's nude scene from ep 3? You bitches are slipping.

R289 Please hand in your gay card, everyone knows Meryl Streep attended Yale School of Drama in the days that Juilliard was just launching an upstart drama program with first graduating attendees LuPone and Kevin Kline. I’m sure David and Patti used old tried and true Juilliard techniques to get through their sex scenes together.

Had to listen to...

Yes, R143, there is gay kissing.

Major props to Jake Picking for doing an interracial, gay kiss.

It's interesting that some of you seem to think if you shriek at people loud and nastily enough, they'll like this miniseries more and overlook its many faults.

Theres nothing wrong with people liking shows with many flaws. I dont really see anyone trying to convince anyone, just saying they like it.

R302, you wouldn't be the "Eh, dime a dozen, I've seen way hotter guys in Weho and Hell's Kitchen" troll, would you?

Wrong, r174.

“Naturalism and realism” are perfectly common and expected qualities that people want from shows.

The people who prefer realism and relevance should know where NOT to find them.

But even HOLLYWOOD and other fairy tales attempt some realism and relevance. And they can botch that.

[Quote]Major props to Jake Picking for doing an interracial, gay kiss

Yikes r311. Your standards are low that in 2020 you still think someone playing a gay character is so brave!1! And god, giving kudos for doing an interracial relationship....what year is? That hasn't been edgy in like 20 years.

I can't really understand the point in reinventing a racist homophobic reality in the past into an imaginary rosy one where everything have been/could have been easily fixed.

The example might not be exactly accurate, but can a movie plot be about Jews in the camps imagining them to fight against the guards until they broke free, forced the Nazis to change and lived happily ever after?

[quote] Wrong, [R174]. “Naturalism and realism” are perfectly common and expected qualities that people want from shows. The people who prefer realism and relevance should know where NOT to find them. But even HOLLYWOOD and other fairy tales attempt some realism and relevance. And they can botch that.

The entire premise of the series is pure fantasy. Again 99% of the series is unrealistic. It is a fairytale. Harping on the fact that Rock can’t pay for sex (when he can’t pay for food shelter and anything else) is silly. Move on. It’s not that serious.

That's the difference between what Ryan Murphy does here and what Tarantino does r317. Tarantino is "what if this one group of people managed to be the people that killed these Nazi leaders", not that they farted rainbows and had all the Nazis change their ways through the power of plucky optimism.

[quote]Major props to Jake Picking for doing an interracial, gay kiss.

What the fuck year do you think it is R311?

Thanks for reminding everyone of the median age of this board.

I'm a little surprised no one's talking about Judd Apatow's spawn.

What is there to talk about r321? She was barely there as a character, just there to give Jack some sort of moral dilemma during his prostitution days then quickly shuttered off at the end.

[quote] Harping on the fact that Rock can’t pay for sex (when he can’t pay for food shelter and anything else) is silly. Move on. It’s not that serious.

PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT MAN BEHIND THE SCREEN!!

[quote] I can't really understand the point in reinventing a racist homophobic reality in the past into an imaginary rosy one where everything have been/could have been easily fixed.

Perhaps the point is this: 70 yrs later or society is still virulently racist, homophobic and sexist. These are each complex problems. Gays remain closeted and racial minorities and when continue to face discrimination. Complex problems than many or the majority is simply not willing to stand up to and in many cases even admit they still exist. 70 yrs later this series is almost as much a fairytale for 2020, as it is for the 1940s.

I think the point is that we have made progress 70 years later. Gays can come out of the closet and there has been improvement with respect to sexism and racial discrimination. But were not 100% there yet and still have a long ways to go.

Scotty Bowers in his book says it was more typically $20 for a blow job when he came to Holywood, which makes a hell of a lot more sense than $200.

$20 would be $231 today, adjusted for inflation

I don't Ryan Murphy had them say $200--that's what you would pay for a weekend with someone.

So Jeremy Pope wears a "Dreamland" hoodie now in the video at r217? Really?

What are your rates?

[quote] I think the point is that we have made progress 70 years later. Gays can come out of the closet and there has been improvement with respect to sexism and racial discrimination. But were not 100% there yet and still have a long ways to go.

Which leading men are out? Which studios are run by women? How many racial minorities are being employed behind the scenes and how many are lead actors in big budget movies? It goes without saying that there has been improvement. Segregation and overt forms of discrimination were outlawed. But Trump, who ran on racism and little else, is president. The white majority elected him and continue to support him, regardless of what he says or does. Trump and the 90% white Republican Party are who America really is. As opposed to who we like to pretend that we are.

Is Jim Parsons becoming gay porn star mess Justin Owen in this interview?

At the r217 video, when Jake returned Jeremy's question, "Are you going to watch it again? What's your vibe?" Jeremy should have said:

"Gurl, I'm a jerk off to it!"

Cuz you know that's the truth.

If I had a dime for every time r218 has mimicked the one time I introduced "dreary" to the DL, I could single-handedly re-start the U.S. economy.

The Rock Hudson character is so dumb and sexy. I'm in love.

Wrong, r219, anybody gets to criticize any show they've seen.

If you don't like criticism, don't made mediocre shows.

R328: It well all depend on whether Hollywood will finally quit being stubborn and allow openly gay leading men in superhero films, allow women to head studios, and employ minorities in substantial numbers both in front of and behind the camera.

I think it will happen one day but it definitely won’t happen anytime soon. Any kind of change in Hollywood is incremental.

[quote] It well all depend on whether Hollywood will finally quit being stubborn and allow openly gay leading men in superhero films

While their profit market is Asia?

Exactly r335. That is why gay is fine on TV, but not in these movies that need to make money in China and other similar markets.

r255, you're just straight-up lying about the nature of HOLLYWOOD.

You don't get a free pass from criticism just because some aspects of the show are fantasy.

HOLLYWOOD, does in fact, exploit realistic elements and real people. It wants you to believe what flows AFTER the fantasy premise is plausible. It wants you to take its themes seriously.

Then it wants you to believe that women would pay to drive by a gas station and McFuck a random stranger.

So quit pretending that NOTHING in HOLLYWOOD has to make sense and that people are wrong to favor realism or even mention how the show compares to history.

I WANT to know how it diverges from history.

How does anyone "know Darren Criss is straight in reality," r262?

R336: Exactly. Hollywood obliges when China censors their movies over and over again.

If anything Criss is at least bisexual

[quote]I WANT to know how it diverges from history.

Google is free and available 24/7.

You want this to be a project that it is not. That's fine. Go ahead and critique it for that. But it had no intention of ever being the series you wanted it to be.

Some people believe it is an exercise in "What If ...?" which is exactly what the show is promoting itself as.

You don't want a discussion. You want people to agree with you.

No one is "missing the point" they just don't agree with you.

Actually, r279, I think it's a matter of who writes Murphy's shows and how much personal and attention Murphy gives them.

For instance, he had great writers on the Versace CRIME STORY who were not him. Likewise, Larry Kramer is not him but wrote THE NORMAL HEART.

Furthermore, GLEE is an example of a Murphy show that started out strong. It had a lot of Murphy involvement at the beginning. But by mid-season, the show began breaking its own rules, running out of steam and wearing out its welcome. Murphy mostly delegated the rest of it to hackneyed writers so he could move on to his next money-making scheme.

I love the fact that a lot of the things that ended up happening in this show would probably not even happen today. Such a fairy tale.

Toning down the sex broadens the audience, r279. Especially when it's gay sex.

Murphy's basic demographic is Drama class geeks and little, old ladies who like the theater. And they don't go for much gay porn.

Camille in whiteface is Emilia Clarke.

I remember when Murphy made the comment ‘ it’s just a TV show’. He later retracted the statement but I suspect that is how he really feels.

He may have cast the great Queen as the Great Hattie and had not one but two interracial relationships in 1940s but fairytale or not Murphy is not a good enough writer to do racism.

Yes, r300. As we've mentioned several times in the thread already, the gas station is based on a real, historical gigolo named Scotty Bowers.

You guys are going to pretend that most people aren't racist and that billions of people are repulsed by sex with certain races and that none of it has consequences on actors or shows that depict interracial intimacy?

How does that jibe with all the racist Grindr profiles bitched about on DL?

People diss sex symbols all the time online because they hate or dislike that race for sex. Sounds like the outraged need to realize what time it is.

You want us to believe that HOLLYWOOD doesn't have to make a lick of sense, r341, and that it's not exploiting real people, real history, and real laws of physics.

You also want to obliterate any point that doesn't flatter this show.

What was your position on this production and how much were you paid?

JIm Parsons performing the Dance of the Seven Veils for his gentleman caller was like a DL skit come to life, although in real life the DLer would be 60+ and weigh 300lbs.

R218 is confused. A childish pastiche of these themes that sugar-coats and ignores and glosses is a Fraulette thumb up the twat, not a production that tells us anything. It ain't porn, it ain't soft-core, it ain't alternate reality, it ain't fantasy, it ain't smart, it ain't soap opera or melodrama, it ain't fun or camp or silly or acerbic or arch or smart or smart-assed or a roman a clef or sexy.

It ain't nothing but Murphy's wet dream and a chance to get his hands on some bodies. In ascending order. And it misrepresents (not the first time for Ms. Murphy) actual people. One may not be able to libel the dead but one certainly can demean and distort them and therefore crap on one's own work for nonsensical reasons.

A shit show.

Well, a gay predatory casting couch agent rescued Rock Hudson from making Bonzai Trees with a weeping Patti Lapone! Ryan Murphy has no grasp of Tarantino revisionism!

Thank god for Ryan Murphy

R218 It is completely disrespectful to white wash the lives and experience these people lived in exchange for a “very special” Facts of Life happy ending!

I'm not completely finished with the series, but it really flew off the rails. Just like Glee, where they change a character's motivation from one scene to the next. I agree that Jeremy Pope started off well, but his scenes where they threatened to take away his writing credit were embarrassing. Then all of the sudden he's fine changing the entire story. It gives you whiplash. However, I wanted more of that Guy Madison actor in his skintight...blouse is it, sweetie? I know they were calling him fat, and Datalounge would call him fat, but his chest was amazing. Perfect. Also, where does Patti LuPone get off going on WWHL and criticizing other people when she knows she's got this shit in the can?

Everything Ryan Murphy touches turns to shit.

Ryan Murphy has no business attempting Tarantino revisionism! Next he will be filming Lady Gaga rescuing gays from Jeffrey Damher while wearing her meat suit!

Jeremy Pope: Forging His Own Path to Hollywood

Jeremy Pope is very good looking but appears to be very short. I say back to Broadway for him he probably won’t even get another Murphy gig.

I'm watching the last episode and they really are playing Rock Hudson as if he is special needs.

Not that it matters there is so much wrong with Hollywood but Hudson was a gigant Murphy couldn’t even get that right.

R255 is right about "what if" fantasy. The show is all about: "What if" the real people had acted differently, would have the world been much better place already? The director character (Criss) voices that in his passionate speach about what movies HW should make: movies about how things should be (like this show). I cannot belive how many people actually missed the point of this show and lost themselves in nitpicking historical fact mismatches. They are deliberately twisted into "what if" fantasy, Dreamland, the author's personal "I have a dream". I think Murphy was brave to risk his Netflix contract giving us his dreamland - instead of playing safe with expected realistic presentation of HW and acceptable bits of a fairytale.

I watched the show without any preconcieved expectations, though I didn't expect to binge it in two days. Caricatural acting (like dummy Hudson and vile Wilson) sits well in this fantasy. I was amuzed with many cringeworthy scenes, like Eleanor Roosevelt faith in HW chance to fix the USA. In general, an interesting, no-brainer show, amuzing enough to be worth watching not only for eye-candy actors. But not worthy all the reviews fuss and disappointment.

Let me get this straight. They didn't include scenes showing gay sex because it would alienate family audiences but the same audiences want to watch a 75-year-old Patti LuPone get fucked doggy style on a staircase?

[quote]What was very evident to me when they were judging the two screen tests of Claire and Camille was that Claire was much, much better, even though Camille won the part--I think because Samara Weaving is a better actress than Laura Harrier.

I thought so too. Weaving wasn't particularly noteworthy but Harrier was such a bad actress. Couldn't they find someone who was capable of delivering a more convincing performance than Harrier?

Jim Parsons' was the worst performance though. He played it like a comic book villain projecting every emotion and thought to the viewers without any subtext. I've never been a fan of his work and I'm genuinely puzzled by all the acclaim he's got. Have our standards fallen so low that actors like him with mediocre skills receive awards?

Lupone had some good moments, but some of her line readings were a bit bizarre. Has she always been this quirky? She did crack me up when talking about her pain-in-the-ass daughter, though.

I'd have ditched most of the characters and focussed on Anna May Wong instead.

The idea of 51 year old mammy Hattie McDaniel participating in bisexual orgies is hilarious.

At some point in the distant future, this Datalounge thread will be seen by historians as definitive proof that denial of brunch destroys the sanity of gay men everywhere.

Queen Latifah should been cast as a resentful Pearlie Mae Bailey who feels threatened by the pretty, young Black girl who has landed a big break. Latifah resembles Bailey quite a bit and might have been far more believable than she was as McDaniel.

Dunno who could have played McDaniel, though. Octavia Spencer, perhaps? In a sly nod to how Hollywood hasn't really changed very much after all, they could have cast Spencer, who won an Oscar in 2012 for playing a maid in the South, as McDaniel, who won an Oscar in 1939 for playing a maid in the South.

[quote]...projecting every emotion and thought to the viewers without any subtext.

Because that is the style of this screenplay. This is not Chekhov. No Moscow. No cherry orchard. No seagull required.

Loved it, every episode~

Patti Lupone has the most ridiculous hairstyles in this. Just wacky. God knows there were some bizarre dos in those days, but nothing as ugly as what she's wearing.

Yeah, Ryan's wokefest didn't really work for me. Of the two movies about Hollywood with revisionist endings, I'll take Tarantino.

All in a day's work for Patti Lupone.

From ATC:

" It does seem like a Valley of the Dolls story or The Best of Everything story, but with gay guys."

R372 When I saw David’s white briefs with what looked like a blue and yellow band stripe, I though more my own1970s vintage underwear than 1940s. I found some of these in fact from J.C. Pennies and the 1970s on eBay but it wouldn’t link. Anyone else think this is wrong?

At one time I would have thought Ryan Murphy would have done a great Valley of the Dolls, but now I realize he’d just fuck it up by having Neely O’Hara stop Vietnam or something.

You are correct, R374. It happens again when Henry Willson draws Rock Hudson into the threeway with Rory Calhoun and another actor whose name I don't recall. I don't really care about this, though. Budgets are limited. If that's the best the costumer could afford, then so be it. It hardly seems to be where I would spend the wardrobe budget, if it were me. I would say a prayer and hope the viewers were looking at the beefy boys, not the briefs.

Why are you expecting a ground breaking trope to the oppressed of Hollywood? Accept it for what it is. This is a trashy 80s Miniseries trying to be woke and tell the story with a modern sensibility. Lupone is terrific. She’s Showing the hidden softness of a shrew. Rob Reiner was belching as he chewed the scenery. Harriet Harris was having a great time playing Eleanor Roosevelt. Jim Parsons is trying his best to bury Sheldon Cooper. Joe Mantello Is wonderful. Per usual some of the younger players were cast for beauty rather than talent. God bless the women trying to play Vivien Leigh and Talluhlah Bankhead. The sets, costumes and art direction are glorious. Enjoy seeing a beautiful, mainstream attempt at gay storylines. The end.

[quote]but Hudson was a gigant Murphy couldn’t even get that right.

Wait till his Halston comes out with Ewan McGregor.

just started this show last night. hoping to stretch it out

R377 I'm frankly sick of Murphy's over the top "wokeness". I still remember the cringeworthy scene from the first season of Glee with that guy's dad being "disappointed" in his son for not welcoming his (potential) new hugely gay brother.

Despite the attempts to make this schlock seem like art, it's just another example of Ryan Murphy's simplistic revisionism. There's no subtlety or nuance. It's a B-movie.

I think my favorite thing was the ending of "Meg."

The girlfriend is going to kill herself because she was cut from a movie.

What she doesn't know is that she hasn't been cut.

Her boyfriend, trying to save her life, knows that, but doesn't tell her. Because he doesn't want her not to jump for that reason -- because it would be a really shallow reason not to kill yourself.

LOL!

It is just like a man to make it all about himself, isn't it?

Don't jump. Because ME.

I laughed at that also r381.

this was a netflix recommendation after watching something else. had no expectations. very pretty and funny to watch so far.

it's a sad time so a fun romp from the past is very enjoyable

The Politician was awful, and this is a close second. I rather watch any America Horror Story rerun over this crap. David Corenswet's character from Missouri would not be such a fast evolving liberal regarding homosexuality and prostitution. He also would have a much more hick accent and limited vocabulary. He would never come up with an idea to rent a cop uniform and enter a gay movie theater and FAKE arrest a black homo and THEN TAKE him for coffee and pitch a better way to make money as a black homosexual prostitute. Too far a stretch for me.

and american horror story isn't?

For me AHS is often nonsensical, but it is usually entertaining. This series replaces a lot of Murphy production's trademark biting wit so much gosh darn earnestness that makes the whole thing tougher to swallow.

Our debating whether or not the big picture concept - a fantasy turn of events built around historical figures - works or doesn’t is entirely the result of simply. bad. writing. The dialogue is so baldly on the nose and devoid of wit - ironically the wit present in films of this period - that the entire concept falls in on itself. Everyone states their characters’ plot points with no finesse or subtext, which leaves the actors completely at sea. So we do or don’t buy the concept and have a decent enough time watching the eye candy in decor and beefcake and posturing and sneering but it’s an idea Murphy should have handed off to a decent writer.

And PS the sloppiness hurts, too.

It’s really noteworthy for example when Holland Taylor says the Mantello character was one of the funniest people she’s ever known-and yet he hadn’t ever said one funny or clever line. He just stated his intentions outright.

Or when they have a battle about whether the black actress can enter the Oscars auditorium - but when she gets there, the black writer is already seated in the front row. WTF.

I adore Holland Taylor

R390 I think she is a great actress, but she seemed a little long in the tooth in that post-sex scene.

[quote] The use of the term “woman of color” here was sloppy. They would have said “colored.”

There was a similar anachronistic use of "ethnics" by Lupony in the first episode. I thought that was just as jarring because the terns used to refer to non-WASP white people in those days were far more offensive and cruel than "ethnics".

R391 she’s spectacular but her two love interests are 57 and 58,

You are right, the love interests are a little old r393.

[quote]The use of the term “woman of color” here was sloppy. They would have said “colored.”

And they used "Asian" instead of "Oriental."

R174 seems to excuse art, even low art, by applying the intentional fallacy.

"It was meant to be a stupid, disrespectful piece of shit with lots of money and talent thrown at it, so you can't talk about it. Oh, and in the meantime I'll set up a false dichotomy by saying it's this or naturalism, even though that ignores such little matters as a work's internal integrity and authenticity and issues of what non-gay-fantasy-accepting auteurs dare to call quality."

Idiot.

I'll take my gay fantasy life elsewhere, because this is just a R. Murphy feel-the-actors-up vanity project.

Isn't it lovely how Samara Weaving somehow doesn't care at all that her boyfriend was fucking her mother. Why, they can compare notes over Thanksgiving dinner!

I think the scene with Weaving and Corenswet in the diner in episode 6 was the worst scene in the whole show.

The scene where Wilson blackmails Avis Amberg was a gaping plot hole for me. All he had on her was evidence of her having possibly committed adultery. He on the other hand was a homosexual during a time when it was still illegal in many (most?) parts of the US. She could even more easily have ruined his career and his life and possibly even had him arrested by leaking stories about his peccadilloes.

Homosexuality was illegal everywhere during this time r399. Illinois was the first state to eliminate their law against sodomy which happened in 1962.

The "I want to take the moral high ground" head of the studio is sleeping with prostitutes and having people beaten with crowbars.

Apparently, pimps are the most generous people in the world.

If you are one of their whores, and just decide not to charge a client twice, they will waive their $200 fee -- no questions asked!

And if you are someone they don't even know who needs $25,000 (over $250,000 today), they will work their asses off -- and dip into their savings -- to get it for you!

It'd have been far more interesting had the writers explored the idea that people from groups that have been historically oppressed aren't necessarily open-minded themselves. Avis, a woman and a Jew, would have experienced a lot of discrimination, but it'd have been a more complex character to play if she'd been written as someone who had internalized those prejudices and was more interested in assimilating as best as she could and propping up the prejudices of WASP America in doing so.

The script went for the cliched approach instead of women and Jews and gays and people of color coming together against the big, bad, straight, white male wolf.

I still can’t get over how this suggested Patti Lupone’s face was more beautiful than her voice.

What a craptastic mess.

Hollywood is finally in the Netflix top 10. It reached #6 in America today.

I didn’t watch but despite the subject matter hack Murphy toned down male nudity and gay sex but had two pushing 80 year old actresses in sex scenes? Also rem Back then women in the 40s woman in their 70s looked like women in their 70s. Plastic surgery wasn’t common back then.

A scene I did see was with Patti proudly showing off she was with a very young man. Everyone would have known he was a paid escort.

Um, looks like Patti took a look at herself in that series and called in the surgeons. Not that I blame her. She was fabulous as she always is.

[quote]" It does seem like a Valley of the Dolls story or The Best of Everything story, but with gay guys."

And this is a bad idea why?

Except Best of Everything was a very entertaining movie and Hollywood is.......

R380, 377 here. Fair point. Maybe you’re too informed an audience for this? I liked it enough. Not life changing, but I did keep thinking how cool it would’ve been to have this in my teens.

R380, 377 here. Fair point. Maybe you’re too informed an audience for this? I liked it enough. Not life changing, but I did keep thinking how cool it would’ve been to have this in my teens.

R380, 377 here. Fair point. Maybe you’re too informed an audience for this? I liked it enough. Not life changing, but I did keep thinking how cool it would’ve been to have this in my teens.

R380, 377 here. Fair point. Maybe you’re too informed an audience for this? I liked it enough. Not life changing, but I did keep thinking how cool it would’ve been to have this in my teens.

[quote]Except Best of Everything was a very entertaining movie

Beat it out on a native drum, R410.

I wonder how Rock would've taken this series. In order to get invited to his pool parties you had to be blond, straight-acting and dumb.

There is a tin of Bitter Queens around here!

Enjoy the series. It's pure camp! Its campier elements:

1. Cole Porter sitting trouserless in a teardrop camper on the side of a service station waiting to get serviced.

2. Anna May Wong crying bitter tears from the balcony as Luise Rainer (is she dead yet?) accepts the best actress Oscar for “The Good Earth”…the part that should have gone to her!

3. Patti LuPone taking it doggy-style on the staircase of her home.

4. Good-looking young men frolicking nude poolside at George Cukor’s home.

5. Jim Parsons channeling Salome or demanding to service Rock Hudson.

6. Jim Parsons opening a door in his office to reveal Rory Calhoun and another young man in their tighty whiteys!

7. The performances of Ms. LuPone and Ms. Taylor

Okay, the series is a “woke” retelling of the last years of Hollywood’s Golden Age. But it’s a drama…not a documentary. No black man would be sitting at a bar sipping martinis with a white man in Hollywood or Los Angeles hotel bar in the late1940s. There would not be a black starlet competing with white starlets for parts. Nor would you see a black starlet eating in the commissary with the white starlets, actors, actresses, writers, directors et al.

David Corenswet’s performance is wooden, because the character he plays is wooden. Darren Criss is a good actor. And there are elements to the series that are really good. The portrayal of Anna May Wong apart from the weeping from the balcony is spot on.

Plus, all those good-looking men in tighty whiteys! Woof!

It’s camp. Enjoy it!

Hollywood suffers from Murphy and company stuffing too many ideas into too little space. That problem has plagued Murphy for much of his career. His projects trend toward greatness when his involvement is minimal, and the diverse creators in the room are allowed to focus his many ideas. Perhaps the greatest example is his strong, specific miniseries, The People v. OJ Simpson, which he executive-produced without writing an episode. His hands are all over Hollywood — his writing credit is on every episode — and he brought all his usual flaws along with him.

One thing I will say: with this series and with her home videos during the shutdown, I have completely changed my opinion of Patti Lupone.

I used to think Patti was a humorless bitch who could sing powerfully and who was magnetic in stage, but who could not act.

Now I think of her as an extremely likeable and funny bitch who CAN act as well as sing... but who has zero taste in home decoration.

Don’t tell a gay man to enjoy camp. We love it and Hollywood isn’t it. At least good camp. Valley of the Dolls bad camp. Mommie Dearest good camp. Hollywood camp with the usual Murphy dreck.

Tarentiono is a100 Times a better writer than Murphy.

[quote] Cole Porter sitting trouserless in a teardrop camper on the side of a service station waiting to get serviced.

I suspect Cole was going to be the one doing the servicing.

my suspicions too

R419 You are on a roll, now read her memoir, or better yet download the audiobook where she reads it herself, it’s quite the treat.

r423, her memoir was why I had the previous opinion of her. She came across as a humorless bitch trying to be funny. I guess writing is not her thing.

she likes it from behind, I'm all for it

“Hollywood” is not camp. It’s kitsch.

Yeah, Patti's memoir was bitter, especially about Glenn Close, and especially considering all she's accomplished. She deserves all the props though. She's a few years older than me and our parents knew each other. I saw her bring the house down in our high school when she was 16 doing South Pacific. She elevated it to almost Broadway level. She was born to do what she does. One time her folks hired me to mow their lawn and Patti came out with a couple of iced teas. She was a diva even then. She had just found out she was getting into Julliard and she sat there and described for me everything she was gonna do in life, like it was pre-ordained. And then she went out and did it. I loved watching her in this tossing off those lines like the pro she is. Amazing.

[quote] She had just found out she was getting into Julliard and she sat there and described for me everything she was gonna do in life, like it was pre-ordained. And then she went out and did it.

"...and one day, after playing several small movie roles, I will play LBJ's wife in a miniseries with Randy Quaid. And then, I will play the mother of a cheerful retarded child on a family friendly Sunday evening TV show for a few years. And then... how's the iced tea? Too sweet?"

Thank God that is is NOT subtle. It is bold and colorful and outlandish and often absurd. That's what it is trying to be, obviously.

It's sophistry to criticize a work of art for what it is not. You have to take it on its own terms. Or make your own art.

R427...love your creative writing style!

Tks R427. I think. Um, I was in plays in school and I was almost as terrible then as I am a poster here. I've never really done anything with my life on that level. So it was amazing (to me) to watch someone like her succeed. She was boasting that day for sure. But it wasn't an empty boast.

R427 Glenn Close was my babysitter when she was 16. I remember even back in 1963 she talked about her coming career. She gave me a glass of milk and said, "I may never win an Oscar, but one day I'm gonna steal a role right out from under some loudmouth Italian bitch!" It was fun to watch her accomplish everything she predicted.

Oh, R431 was for R430. And R432 wins! Very funny. I don't think Patti will ever get over it.

you bitches need to write a screenplay

I have a friend who was well positioned in the opera world. One evening, in the mid 1980s, (some point after Garp and the Big Chill, and probably before Fatal Attraction,) he attended a dinner party at the home of a colleague. He recognized most of the people there as being from show business. The host seated him next to Glenn Close. He had no idea who the hell this woman was and asked her for her name. She replied, "I'm Glenn Close." Then my dear and wonderful friend asked what her connection to show business might be.

Things got very, very, frosty after that. Oh, yes.

Well, r338, he never sucked MY cock.

Watching LuPone get pounded doggy-style reminded me of her topless scene in the movie she did with Spike Lee. I remember someone jokingly posting on DL as Lee, claiming that the topless part wasn't in the script and not necessary at all but LuPone argued that she was " a trained Juilliard actress and the world needs to see these trained tatas".

Just please tell me this means no more Darren Criss.

Luise Ranier talking about the role she stole from Anna May Wong.

She was the "So young" go to girl for death announcements here on DL before she too finally died (at 128 or something) and Olivia DeHavilland became to reigning "So young" wisecracker.

Yeah, kinda tired of Criss as well. More than that, after this I don't know if I'll be watching any more Ryan Murphy biopics.

Oh r428...I just adore Patti, especially since this.

R441 Stop posting pics of a topless Michael Jackson

I was a fan of Criss until he said no more gay roles. If he said no more interracial roles he would be canceled in a second.

He’s lucky to get any kind of good acting job. The main reason he got the Versace role because he looked so much like the real person.

Criss is only good when he is playing a prissy gay man.

Larry Hagman reveals his mother's bitch streak.

So some here think we should accept any kind of bullshit pablum that gets served up just because it is what it is and we get to see some cute boys. Got it. Somebody put a call in to Rotten Tomatoes and tell them they need to totally revamp their ratings system.

[quote]I wonder how Rock would've taken this series.

Given the times Rock grew up in, it is hard to say what would bother him more: being depicted as an out gay man on TV or being shown to be dating a black man?

Why would anyone expect more than "bullshit pabulum" from Ryan Murphy, r447?

[quote]Luise Rainer talking about the role she stole from Anna May Wong. She was the "So young" go to girl for death announcements here on DL before she too finally died (at 128 or something) and Olivia de Havilland became to reigning "So young" wisecracker.

Luise Rainer was 104 when she died, the same age Olivia will be on July 1st.

[quote]I was a fan of Criss until he said no more gay roles. If he said no more interracial roles he would be canceled in a second.

He said no more gay roles for himself because the tide has turned and there is a sizable number of people who don't feel that straight actors (no matter what DL at large believes, Criss identifies as straight) should not play gay roles as that is theoretically taking work away from an openly gay actor who should be afforded the opportunity.

[quote] (no matter what DL at large believes, Criss identifies as straight)

Criss identifies publicly as straight, anyway.

Only on Ep 2, but the fake "Wokeness" is annoying.

No one would say "black" or "asian" back then.

And Jeremy Pope's whole way of speaking seems way too modern. His voice sounds really familiar but I don't see many other movie credits and I didn't see his bway shows. Maybe he sounds like the HIV med commercial with the black guy with huge dreds?

R446 - That was great, thanks. JR was one of the best villains, and very funny.

R453, do you think perhaps they handled racial terms that way so it could be heard less critically by a younger generation?

R455 you sound like the type who would ban literature classics like Huck Finn because it used the N word.

Yes let's pretend it never happened..... that is so much better!

Everything about this series is reprehensible. A slate of actors that either came from the casting couch or are the spawn of powerful Hollywood producers. White people writing about the black experience in a fairy tale alternative reality that insults those whose lives and careers really were destroyed by racial hatred. Equating the gay Hollywood experience with the black Hollywood experience. Both groups experienced discrimination but there were numerous gay directors, stars, producers and agents in Hollywood with zero black counterparts. Lots of white heroes who in reality never lifted a finger or risked their careers for blacks in Hollywood. The one singular black female success story - Hattie MacDaniel - has one major scene where she is romping in bed with Tallulah Bankhead and a black male prostitute. This on top of the staggering insult of being portrayed by a woman who has been in the closet since the Carter Administration.

The Tarantino comparison is bullshit. This is more like a film in which the Germans rise up against their Nazi masters and liberate all the Jews from Auschwitz and everybody lives happily ever after.

Should?

What happened to the best actor for the part being the one who should be given the role?

R457, you are a Five Star Idiot.

Hernando Bansuelo and Janet Mock might be quite insulted by your statement.

Best part of this for me was the music. Every track can be found on YouTube, so I made my own OST playlist.

You naysayers need to think of the inspiring message it tells youngsters!

"Mommy and Daddy, the mini-series I just saw tells me that I can be anybody I want to be when I grow up, regardless of my race, color, or creed!

Also, it looks like in order to do that I'm going to have to put out for money quite a bit for older people..."

[quote]Yeah, kinda tired of Criss as well. More than that, after this I don't know if I'll be watching any more Ryan Murphy biopics.

Oh, please! You Ryan Murphy haters say that every single time, and yet here you are again. Just like clockwork. You can't wait to watch every frame of his latest show just so you can whine about what a hack he is and how much you hated it....while secretly loving it.

Here's the video of the haters crashing every single Ryan Murphy show thread.....

r460, indeed, I totally agree. I think any series needs a forties big band soundtrack

The series is like a car wreck, you have to keep an eye on what is happening but saying how sad for the actors at the same time.

I love it

I agree with 457. It is very self-indulgent and has no irony in regards to its ridiculously over the top revisionist history. All the “others” are lumped together and it has as much depth as an ABC after school special, or less, really. The soundtrack is the basic retro retreads and I noticed a lot of overlap with “The Marvelous Mrs. Mazel.” My husband was trying to sleep when I was watching it, but he kept waking up periodically to groan at the stupidity of the dialogue. The KKK burning crosses—really? Right out of the junior script writers guide to portraying racial discrimination in the last century. Then despite these little bumps in the road, all of society overcame them in time for the Oscars.

[quote]The soundtrack is the basic retro retreads

no, they are forties top hits, silly, and the originals

[quote]He said no more gay roles for himself because the tide has turned and there is a sizable number of people who don't feel that straight actors (no matter what DL at large believes, Criss identifies as straight) should not play gay roles as that is theoretically taking work away from an openly gay actor who should be afforded the opportunity.

He was getting majorly typecast and saw a convenient way to do a U-turn.

Before that statement, he spent years telling everyone how he was raised by the gays in SF theater. His circle has always included gays in entertainment. If he was so tight with the gays, wouldn't he be aware much earlier that he's contributing to taking roles from them?

The conversation about straights taking roles from gay actors isn't as recent as you make it out to be. It was already mainstream while he was on Glee. But he went on to two high-profile gay roles after that because they were, well, high profile and one was Emmy bait

Jake Piicking looks far more like Jim Carrey than Rock Hudson.

better body

R457 What was it about President Carter that drove Queen Latifah into the closet? Of all presidents he seems the least likely to do that?

is there any dick in this?

r444 no one would say "no more interracial roles" because white actors aren't allowed to play anything but white people now, or they're "taking a job from a minority".

r417 intentional camp isn't camp.

Latifa is a gospel church girl and has a lot of negative thoughts about being gay that she cannot get over

Jodie Foster was in the closet since the Carter Administration and even she eventually came out.

is president carter one of the filling station boys?

No, but Billy Carter was.

Is it true LuPone has an anal sex scene in this show?

All the actors in this production got fucked in the ass by Ryan Murphy.

Yes, R479. I wonder if she also filmed any Sharon-Stone-in-Basic-Instinct-pussy-shots that wound up getting edited.

Why oh why couldn't we've seen Jake Picking get fucked doggy instead?

[R479] I hope she douched and ate fiber beforehand.

[quote] Is it true LuPone has an anal sex scene in this show?

No, that happened back when she was on "Life Goes On."

[Quote]He said no more gay roles for himself because the tide has turned and there is a sizable number of people who don't feel that straight actors (no matter what DL at large believes, Criss identifies as straight) should not play gay roles as that is theoretically taking work away from an openly gay actor who should be afforded the opportunity.

But straight actors playing gay roles isn't going anywhere. Even in this production Jake Picking who is playing the infamous gay actor Rock Hudson is straight.

I agree that it feels more like he wanted to break out from his gay typecasting. Between Glee, Hedwig and Versace that was all he was known for.

So straight Criss is refusing to play any gay role.

Instead, he is going to play every straight role gay.

Murphy should bring in some cute Broadway gays.

There are maybe 4 or 5 out actors. The biggest one Richard Madden isn’t officially out I assume he will wait until that Marvel Movie comes..

The last big gay role in a major Hollywood movie was Love Simon. I heard they wanted to cast assumed closet case Shawn Mendes but I’m glad who got cast.

I couldn’t stomach the show but from I understand there wasn’t even much gay content but had two sex scenes with women in their 70s..

Good job, Murphy for your sake I hope Netflix gave all that money in one lump sum.

This isn’t even top 5 on Netflix and it was released just two days ago and getting nothing but bad reviews, this is bombing big time . Netflix probably has buyer’s remorse with Murphy

Who would be watching except the ever-decreasing number of gay Ryan Murphy fans? Doubt many straight people or black people want to watch this dreck.

R487 Yes, because Ben Platt was such a big hit? I guess he could get Taylor Trensch and Noah Galvin and along with Ben make an updated version of that classic comedy film, but name it Three Gays and a Baby?

R487 When Boys in the Band comes out I think you may find yourself regretting your statement.

[quote]But straight actors playing gay roles isn't going anywhere. Even in this production Jake Picking who is playing the infamous gay actor Rock Hudson is straight.

The difference would be that he reached the level of fame he is at because of gay roles which made him a much bigger target during that movement. The blame for straight actors playing gay roles goes to the actor in most instances. (Of course criticism should be levied at many other people above and beyond them as well but it usually isn't.)

I do agree it was also because he was becoming typecast.

Also Darren Criss, as far as I know (from spending time with him and someone else) is straight but people believe what they want. Also who knows what the man does behind closed doors! I feel he's just be a man who knows who butters his bread.

R474, ever heard of "Hairspray?"

I’m surprised that Darren didn’t get Ryan to oust the actor playing the ostentatiously straight role in Boys in the Band so he could have it?

What is Murphy's obsession with foot long cocks? Every AHS except for the first either has some character with a giant dick or mentions they have a giant dick.

[482] oh boy, that would have given it an extra star in my book, definitely the hottest guy in the series for me

series itself was okay, it got a little too idealistic for me and quite a bit of cringe moments but at least it had real gay romance stuff unlike The Politician.

Salome? I died.

Wrong, r362.

R255 is using the "What if?" premise as an excuse for nothing to have to make sense in HOLLYWOOD.

She's using it to grant total immunity to Ryan Murphy for any and all criticism and to invalidate discussion of the historical realities that Murphy is exploiting, which is valid and worthwhile. She thinks Ryan Murphy gets the freedom to fantasize but nobody else gets the freedom to bitch.

Nobody here ever challenged the freedom to make fairy tales or didn't know that's what Murphy did. I like plenty of other directors who do fantasy better.

The problem is not any of the obvious flaws that you find in all of Ryan Murphy’s work. The fact that it is an equality themed fairytale is why so many here are so angry and critical. Had it been a gay men fucking the “straight” husbands of “fraus” fairytale. Regardless of the usual Ryan Murphy flaws; Datalounge would be raving about it. Datalounge and dataloungers have no Interest in a message about equality, particularly racial equality. The days of sodomy laws and legalized segregation are for many dataloungers the good ole days.

By DLers you mean professional critics who have said the same things people have said on this thread r500...?

[quote] By DLers you mean professional critics who have said the same things people have said on this thread [R500]...?

No, I’m speaking specifically about this site and the people who post here. I’ve been around long enough to know how they think. I can’t really speak to your anecdote, regarding “professional” critics. I’ve seen bad reviews and okay reviews. However, we are talking about a Ryan Murphy production that had all of the expected Ryan Murphy flaws. And of course what critics hate, audiences often like. What audiences like critics often hate.

For what Murphy is getting paid netflix should demand at least a few Ozark level quality shows and gays should demand quality as well! Enough of this” at least it has representation and guys in love” crap! Murphy has gotten far too rich by putting out complete shit because he thinks gays won’t care and will still watch as long as there are hot men, or some woke agenda(trannies!)

The cast is answering questions on twitter and Harrier said her first scene she filmed was her scene with Criss on the coach. It kinda shows

So glad to hear you're all in favor of racism and gay-bashing, r380.

Now kindly go dip yourself in a vat of sulfuric acid.

A week ago Ryan Murphy screened the first three episodes of the show for the Motion Picture Home. I wonder how the olds felt about his take on things.

At least, R499, you acknowledge that which you are doing here is bitching. For that candid admission you get full credit.

On one hand, a team of producers, writers, directors, actors, and all the professionals in the associated crafts that go into film making worked together to make film in seven episodes. On the other hand, we have R499 bitching about it.

Coronswet tweets

Whoops

Rock Hudson living with a gay black man in the late 1940s is beyond ridiculous. His manager would have married him off even sooner.

R510 The darkest Rock would go is Italian.

[quote]For what Murphy is getting paid netflix should demand at least a few Ozark level quality shows and gays should demand quality as well!

This is why I have a lot of respect for Shonda Rhimes. She got her Netflix deal to produce content in 2018 and she made it clear she was going to sit down, focus and try and actually put something good on the there.

She didn't rush. Her first show, Bridgerton, is finally coming out this year. Grey's Anatomy is still on the air. How to Get Away With Murder which she simply produces is ending this year.

Meanwhile Ryan Murphy got his deal the same year and he has already released The Politician & Hollywood with Ratched and The Boys in the Band movie already shot while they were working on two other shows for Netflix (The Prom movie was supposed to be the end of the year.) Add into all of his other shows on other networks like both 911 and the Spinoff and AHS along with Versace and everything else he produced between getting that deal and now -- and something has got to give.

You get two, full-frontal dongs on sculpted musclemen in Episode 3, r472.

But it's very fleeting. None of the show's leads do nudity, which sucks.

Rock Hudson was an unknown going to the gas station with the magic password for gay sex...unlikely....he would not have that kind of money as a newbie in Hollywood and would never spend it on a black trick. He would more likely be working there, but also unlikely.

it's clearly a parable. holy fuck all of you twits are tedious

All I could think of while watching this is "Why is Jim Halpert doing this show?"

Since this is going a revisionist history where everyone gets their happy ending...why is Rock Hudson still Rock Hudson?

Roy hated that name and it is a sign of Wilson's control over him. You think the show would have had him ditch it.

R456 a simple question triggered you. Why? It’s quite a leap to go from asking a question in good faith while offering no opinion to being accused of being someone who supports book banning. You might want to drink less coffee.

I binge watched it on Friday and Saturday, and overall, I liked it. But here's my breakdown. LOVED Episodes 1 and 2, there were great. I like how sexy it all was, and the characters were appealing. Episodes 3 and 4 were very good, the characters grew and there was still suspense. Episode 5 is when things start falling apart; once the casting is over there is very little suspense. Episode 6 was a crashing bore. Episode 7 was okay, but it all turned into a maudlin fantasy. However, I will say that Ryan Murphy did some interesting things in the final 15 minutes -- he made me feel sorry for Rock Hudson and Henry Willson, that they had to live their entire lives in the closet. And leaving us with that as a message was very powerful in my opinion.

I didn’t care for the actor who played Archie. His performance was too modern. Samara is a strange and interesting actress who deserved a part with more meat on the bones.

I'm happy to trash Murphy when he is lame. But I'm not one of these racists complaining about "woke" this or that. The right-wing trolls invade every thread and take a dump — it doesn't mean they're the only type of critic.

I also praise Murphy when he gets something right.

r521 just because someone doesn't like a do-gooder message being unsubtley thrown in our faces doesn't make one "racist". It makes one non-idiots who appreciate plot, structure, and good dialogue. Murphy has a problem with it. It's the same line of reasoning where one can validly bemoan a character doing something convenient to the plot but not to the character and their motivations. None of us want to watch an after-school special where everything is spelled out for us as to how we should feel or react to a certain thing.

That's basically my progression r519.

I thought eps 1-4 were okay, but with 5-7 it just turns into everything works out perfectly for every character and their problems disappear and it just becomes very maudlin.

[quote]you acknowledge that which you are doing here is bitching

Just as you have admitted you're bitching, r507. After all, YOU'RE ON DATALOUNGE.

But "bitching" isn't all that I'm doing. Artwork is sold to the public for OUR consideration. If you think your shit doesn't stink and nobody can review your work and Ryan Murphy gets a free pass because it's fiction and he helps the gays then YOU'RE IN THE WRONG PROFESSION. The purpose of artwork is to foment discussion. You don't get to suppress it and you're not perfect.

The real stories and struggles of the legends involved here also deserve more respect and acknowledgment than you're affording them.

Better than Tarantino.

Is no one going to mention the implausibility of Jack's fugly pregnant wife cheating on and leaving him for some bland soda jerk?

R526, that part I believe only because he actually paid attention to her. Jack was too busy chasing his dream and he didn't actually love her and I think she also realized that deep down too.

There are a billion opinions on the internet some dumb person would have to say that r 525.

Boys in the Band is a classic play and it will be hard to mess up unless he decides to make it less bitter.

The musical with Nicole and Meryl I Hope will be good.

From what I understand The Politician was first intended for another network and Hollywood is Murphy’s first true Netflix project. I wonder if The Politician will get a second season. I’m sure Judith Light and Bette Middler want no part after that embarrassing ending.

I will give him credit he did an okay job on The Normal Heart. Although it’s kinda ironic Barbra lost the project when she told Kramer she could only get the film made as a HBO movie. She would have done a better job.

I’ll never forget that big bomb the remake of Stepford Wives that was clearly two different movies trying to pass as one. It’s a satire that was the excuse. On a Hollywood we get it’s a fairy tale and we don’t get it. Yeah right.

I typed something wrong way above. I said Criss would be in trouble if he wouldn’t play interracial anymore. I meant to say he wouldn’t play the white part of an interracial couple.

The Politician has already filmed season two r528. Ryan Murphy has said recently it will be off a few years to let the actors age and come back for a final season.

I think I would have liked this more if they didn’t use any real names and created a total fantasy world.

I'm curious how much of the script the actors see when they sign on for the role.

R529 Let the actors age? Midler and Light are not long for this world and can easily cut back on the makeup and beauty treatments and play a decade older with their natural faces.

R531 Patti claims she had no idea she was the female lead until she started filming. So, that suggests she had not seen much of the script at that point.

Midler and Light are for season 2, and presumably they would not be in the final season r532. The final season is Ben Platt running for President and there would be new rivals.

R530 While I understand your sentiments, I think there would considerably less emotional buy in without the real personalities and they were a big draw to watch for many people.

Question for you buffs - has there ever been a producer who turned out as much content as Ryan Murphy? I’m looking at his IMDb and wondering if ever sleeps. Other producers I’ve heard of like Aaron Spelling and James L Brooks have paltry resumes by comparison. How does he find the time.

Leslie Jordan said in one of his videos that Ryan is so hands on for every project that though Leslie has never met him when they were going to give him a costume change on AHS they called Ryan on whatever set he was on and he made the costuming decision.

Don't forget about fellow power gay producer Greg Berlanti. I think he has more shows than Murphy does.

Wait, so we're going to get an older, homelier Ben Platt for season 3 of The Politician?

R536 Norman Lear?

R533 Patti’s going to eligible for the best actress Emmy?

R531 Didn’t they drop a whole episode from the last AHS in the middle of the season? That speaks to a lack of scripts for the series being prepared at the start and running out of ideas midway.

That's how television operates, you write as you go r541. It isn't like a movie where you have a complete script before you start filming.

Ok, count me as a fungaurl who thinks this whole thing goes off the rail at about episode 4. The problem I have with it, is not so much of the the lack of "realism"; to me if one accepts the premise that this is a revision then its not hard to accept the more progressive attitudes that the core characters adopt. Its the characters seem to operate with no core principles. They aren't fleshed out well enough, and their motivations captured in the script to reflect the decisions and actions they ultimately make. It reminded of Nip/Tuck where the characters seem to operate of out necessity of the plots rather than any core ideology. Nothing is shown, conveyed, whatever verb one chooses why the Patti Lupone character makes the decisions she makes, deciding to have Camille as the lead or that the fictional Rock Hudson would choose to come out at the Oscars. Its not even that this is the 50s, is that characters aren't fleshed out any more that soap opera archetypes.

With that being said, although this project is a mess, in a weird way it subversively highlights the absurdity of it all; being closeted, racism, sexism. Maybe thats the whole point of it all. And its wildly entertaining, even if very uneven.

One thing I don’t recall hearing about in relation to Ryan Murphy shows is the role of the show runner, which seems so important to series like Walking Dead or some of the super hero shows. I can understand a sitcom like Friends not needing one, but Murphy’s shows sound ripe for that type of management and need for detailed attention to the seasonal arc and series fluidity?

Excuse the mess I wrote at r543. I didn't feel like editing and was typing fast. I hope it is comprehensible-- everything I was trying to express.

I wonder if she thinks she actually has a chance for Best Actress in a Limited Series? My sides!

Anybody else like the opening credits? Between the score and visuals I thought it was really unique.

Anybody else like the opening credits? Between the score and visuals I thought it was really unique.

R542 I recall reading a few years ago about an actress who helmed a series and was lead writer and refused to start shooting until all the scripts were done for the whole season so that she could concentrate on the acting and production issues rather than writing for the next episode. I thought it was Sarah Silverman, but couldn’t locate the article I read, or maybe it is Pamela Aldon?

Either way it was not someone with considerable Hollywood power, but who regardless was able to get it done to ensure the content and quality of their show. So someone like Murphy should be able to demand that for a show, unless, as might be coming apparent here through these discussions, he doesn’t actually care and is more interested in quantity over quality?

Greg B has better content. I loved Love Simon. I wonder where and when the series version is going to be on?

Add another point about Rock Hudson not being able to afford to buy tricks. I don't know enough about his early bio, but his portrayal is shown as too darn gosh earnest and green behind the years that he would actually be buying prostitutes while trying to become a star.

It was perpostous how many characters and how many times the actors went from snappy Cracker Jack dialogue to a dramatic moment where they embarassingly attempt to emote with tears. Almost all the characters did it multiple times and most of the time it was not authentic or even appropriate. And I disagree with the praise for the Archie actor. I thought he was terrible, stagey and unattractive. The other hi boys actors were at least nice to look at

Wait is this a limited series, series, or (I have to ask as a RP show) an anthology? Are we next going to get a 1950s TV show version where the Cleavers have black next door neighbors, Mr. Ed talks to Asians and Vivian Vance comes out as lesbian?

I think it's a series.

Patti said there was talk of a season 2 with the characters moved into the 60’s. She even said if it goes ahead she may not come back for Company which is pencilled in for a Jan 2021 reopening. She feels this is her first leading lady role and the best role of her life.

When Feud was on they said it would be an anthology and that never happened so I can’t see a season 2 or this happening. I don’t think it will get many Emmy nominations either, although I thought it was a fun way to spend Sunday afternoon.

R555 1960s? Wouldn’t her character be dead by then? Or if he plans to wait and have the characters “age” again the actor may be dead.

R556 That was my thought but she said it in the Daily Beast interview linked earlier in the thread ^^ I can’t put the link here without the thread crashing on me.

[quote]I'm curious how much of the script the actors see when they sign on for the role.

Joe Mantello said he basically agreed to do it before they had even decided anything about his character just because it was Ryan Murphy. The whole cast of "American Horror Story: Hotel" (except for Gaga) signed on when the show was supposed to be "American Horror Story: Civil War." Ryan changed his mind when Gaga agreed. It doesn't always happen but it happens quite a lot with a director like Murphy. People will work with him without ever seeing the script because he's Ryan Murphy and he can do that.

[quote]Question for you buffs - has there ever been a producer who turned out as much content as Ryan Murphy?

Yes, Greg Berlanti dwarfs him. Granted the man deals mostly with Comic Book properties that already have established histories, but the CW Network is basically all him all the time.

At one point he was producing: Arrow, You, Riverdale, Blindspot, Black Lightning, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow, Titans, Doom Patrol, Prodigal Son, Batwoman & Katy Keene at the same time with Arrow leaving and Stargirl and Superman & Lois coming up as new shows. I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting.

And many of the shows, like The Flash, Super Girl, Titans etc. he will occasionally serve as a writer as well.

[quote]A week ago Ryan Murphy screened the first three episodes of the show for the Motion Picture Home. I wonder how the olds felt about his take on things.

Most of those that showed up slept through it.

R550 June 19th. Though Greg Berlanti has nothing to do with the series

Thanks, r558. I just wonder if an actor signs on for what they think is a groundbreaking concept, but then they start getting script pages and become mortified. I guess some actors are just happy for the exposure. Not every show can be The Sopranos.

I’m confused, hasn’t the show about Katrina been in the can for years? When is that coming out?

Sorry dear but Corky’s Mom was the best role of your life

r517. Agreed. Why even make this character Rock Hudson at all, if there are so many dramatic changes from the real person.

They didn't even use Rock's real last name.

They got one script at a time. Unless an actor is a big star or has fuck you money I think a TV paycheck is always a good thing. If an actor thinks a project will be his big break that will get him better representation and more work and it ends up being a flop that stings but it’s also the nature of the business.

r526, That whole plot revelation reminded nip/Tuck(one of the most entertaining shows of all time, even though it was bad overall). It was without cause or purpose-- except to be convenient to the plot and get the "pregnant wife" out of the picture. It has no dramatic impact because there was no foresight, no irony. The wife was never presented as a whore, the paternity never in doubt, it was just a convenient sensational way to move the plot along. Stuff like that used to happen on Nip/Tuck all the time.

Nice, longish, article about Joe Mantello .

For his role has Henry Wilson, Jim Parsons spent many many hours studying Datalounge in order to prefect the correct level of self hatred, bitterness and cuntitude. Datalounge give yourselves a round of applause!

Of all the things said here, I think the funniest is that Murphy knows most of the guys on this show are not straight (they're either gay or bisexual) and yet he wants to create this woke fantasy of being yourself. It's ironic and a whole level of hypocrisy.

People hate Darren because everyone knows he's gay and his fake attitude just plays on that hypocrisy.

I find it entertaining as a whole and worth a watch, but the script is all over the place and the show has no clear point of view. That said, the "cotton candy", saccharine take on the era mixed with current social politics is entertaining if not hammy. Parsons was a dud here. He did a very decent job playing a sexist, bigoted asshole in Hidden Figures, but just comes off as a hammy caricature here. Jeremy Pope was miscast (as someone way up thread mentioned). He is cute, but nothing about him would lead anyone to believe that he would be seen as some sort of ripped stud who would be cherry picked to be an instant sensation male prostitute with any and all clientele. A dorky-cute screen writer? Perhaps. Certainly not a stud however. David Corenswet and Laura Harrier had the opposite problem - lovely to look at, but terrible actors (at the very least - terrible in these roles). Corenswet is stunningly sexy but the paint can't dry quick enough once he reads a line. Harrier is lovely but stale in every way. She is so self-conscious that I'm stressed watching her stumble around her lines and miss her marks. Jake Picking is great to look at too but in no way comes close to embodying the Greek God physicality of Rock Hudson in his prime (Corenswet would have been far better in this role actually). Darren Criss can be great when placed in the right roles IMO, but this was not one of them. I thought for sure that he was going to come out as closeted (I'm only finished with episode 6 now)? He just isn't believable in any way. The series is eminently watchable, but I feel as if the "inside joke" is that almost every role was miscast on purpose?

[quote] He is cute, but nothing about him would lead anyone to believe that he would be seen as some sort of ripped stud who would be cherry picked to be an instant sensation male prostitute with any and all clientele.

None of them were expected to be the end all be all for "any and all clientele." He hired a team so that clients would have options.

Who wouldn’t?

Let me rephrase R572 - he would never have been picked in the first place. There are tons of insanely hot black male actors that would be believable as stud-talent to be scouted. He isn't one of them.

R573 Patti looks like a man.

It's preposterous, of course, but it was never meant to be a documentary.

I liked Joe Mantello and found him strangely sexy in a more real way than all the good-looking hunks who seemed unable to act their way out of a paper bag.

I liked Joe Mantello and found him strangely sexy in a more real way than all the good-looking hunks who seemed unable to act their way out of a paper bag.

I dread seeing Janet Mock’s name on episodes. All the Important Social Issues come to the forefront and the subtleties are underlined. It’s the dramatic equivalent of a HuffPo headline. I noticed her becoming more prominent as Pose was turning from an interesting show with social commentary to a lecture of people preaching to the converted.

This show didn’t change any minds because the only people who watched it were already doing to watch a dishy historical drama about a gay hooker gas station and weren’t going to reach for the smelling salts over a milquetoast interracial romance.

[quote] I’m confused, hasn’t the show about Katrina been in the can for years? When is that coming out?

It didn't go forward. From Feb. 2019

FX President John Landgraf told reporters today at the Television Critics Association winter press tour that the Katrina season of American Crime Story was all but dead at the network. "Katrina is not still in the mix," he said when asked about the status of the long-delayed series.

Though American Crime Story: Katrina, a season focusing on Sheri Fink's novel Five Days at Memorial: Life and Death in a Storm-Ravaged Hospital, was announced in 2017, it hit several stumbling blocks during the development process. When production was pushed back in June of 2017, Landgraf cited a "creative pivot" as the reason for the delay. Now, it seems FX is no longer interested in another pivot.

[quote] Let me rephrase [R572] - he would never have been picked in the first place. There are tons of insanely hot black male actors that would be believable as stud-talent to be scouted. He isn't one of them.

I see. He’s not the Mandingo stereotype that you need him to be. The others can be boy next door cute but he has to be a big black Mandingo Adonis.

Just please tell me this means no more David Corenswet.

R581's comment could apply much more broadly to all the many arm-chair film critics on this thread who invariably write about themselves, not the film. It is absurd to criticize an artist for what does not interest him. A thing interests an artist and stimulates his creativity, or it does not. But if it does not, that's the end of it. You can't follow an artist, poking him in the back, hectoring him that he should have been interested in... whatever that thing is that seems to interest you so greatly. That's totally unproductive and a complete waste of time.

It is so much more challenging and productive to scrutinize a film in a search for everything that was done well. Dismissing things is child's play. Every two year old can say "No!"

R581 Was the Old Spice man not available?

I loved eleanor Roosevelt's contribution.

R548, I loved the opening credits too. And Lupone looks like Gonzo.

she needs a mustachio

Having Eleanor Roosevelt make an appearance in that way was the height of delusional pomposity on the part of the producers. But not any more inane than the rest of the revisionist history presented to viewers. If this tripe hadn't been sweetened with bland pretty boys and selective male nudity, no one would have watched.

r509 - I caught that as well the guy playing Rock slipped the other guy the tongue.

Harriet Sansom's Eleanor Roosevelt wig was a work of art. They could have made an entire episode featuring just the wig.

I think they should have called the show "Hollywoodland" because

a. that's was the sign said at this time;

b. it would suggest a different "land" (parallel reality) to actual Hollywood; and

c. "Hollywood" is a really dull title.

[quote] Rock Hudson living with a gay black man in the late 1940s is beyond ridiculous. His manager would have married him off even sooner.

R510 and others - if you're questioning the plausibility of plot elements in an unabashed fantasy about an intentionally alternate version of history, you're missing the point - whether or not the show was done well.

[quote]Having Eleanor Roosevelt make an appearance in that way was the height of delusional pomposity on the part of the producers.

actually, you're wrong, she did consort with film executives about their role in society. the sentiments (Including the drag about high heels) were all in character. after her husband died she became the clearest voice in the US against JimCrow laws and I felt the character mentioning this was appropriate. the other characters reactions might have been revisionist. she was called a commie left and right because she felt black people were, really not that bad.

This thead is almost maxed out

[quote]They could have made an entire episode featuring just the wig.

don't forget the double chin and that dig at her preference for "sensible shoes'

r589, homo that I am I spotted that too. good for him!

Nobody's missing "the point", R592. It's beating us on the head.

I liked it

I can’t get over how corny the acting is. People are praising Jeremy Pope but his scenes are so unintentionally bad to me. The Camille and Rock Hudson actors are just god awful.

I’m sorry, but Jeremy Pope seems like he in a whole other TV show to me. I’m not sure what he’s doing so differently, but he’s odd man out in this show. It’s like his whole performance has been green screened in to the other actors.

Why did Ms. Lupone's character, Avis, looked just like Eva Peron???

Her dress and mannerisms were identical.

Funny and odd all at the same time.