A Literary Poor on Why She'll Probably Have to Flee NYC

[quote] non-tenure track

What does that mean?

A literary poor what?

[quote] What does that mean?

Adjunct. Sub-human.

If the Guardian ceased to exist tomorrow, the world would be a better place.

OP has a poverty of nouns.

Another whiny essay from the same woman.

Do you have the RIGHT to live anywhere you want? Absolutely! Do you have the ABILITY to live anywhere you want? Maybe, maybe not. I'm annoyed by people constantly complaining about the cost of living wherever they are...if you can't afford to live somewhere, use a little common sense, stop fucking whining about it, and get the hell out. The overall sense of entitlement among people is staggering.

[Bold] DING! DING! DING! WE HAVE A WINNER AT R6 !!!!!!!!!!

Why live in a place like animals where disease runs rampant? Have we learned anything yet? It is unhealthy to be crammed together all the time, this is why it wasn't near as bad in Los Angeles than NYC. But then the rats will flee that sinking ship and infest other places to their detriment, that will not go over well.

[quote]if you can't afford to live somewhere, use a little common sense, stop fucking whining about it, and get the hell out.

Then she complains that she feels GUILTY about having other options - (1) a place to stay in NJ during Corona and (2) an option to move to Florida where there's a teaching job.

[quote]we have access to my husband’s brother’s wife’s family’s New Jersey country house right now. I keep saying all those things – husband, brother, wife – to people when I tell them that we left the city to prove, I guess, that we’re not one of those families who have secret country houses of our own.

[quote]I have been embarrassed by this access, in the same way I’m embarrassed to have parents who have money, which is to say, I find people having things that they did not earn,

[quote] or people having so much more than most, to be sort of abhorrent [bold]without always knowing why I feel that way. [/bold]Privilege is abhorrent, I think, because of how fundamentally skewed and unfair its allocation always is.

Gurl I think it's time you found out - your guilt at privilege is your downfall.

r7

That's how white people keep out the African Americans. It's still racism.

[quote] non-tenure track

[quote] What does that mean?

добро пожаловать Олег!

[quote] I'm annoyed by people constantly complaining about the cost of living wherever they are...if you can't afford to live somewhere, use a little common sense, stop fucking whining about it, and get the hell out.

Thass rite!

Iffin you caint pay the bank, you gitta gitcher jalopy & head on out to Cally-for-nigh-ay! They’s plenty jobs out there in God’s country, so long as you poor white folk don’t mind livin like the colored people been doin fer 3 hunnert years. After all, God rewards those who live by His Word, and you sure ain’t being ree-warded, are ya?

This is exhausting. It doesn't matter what color your skin is when your rent doubles in less than three years.

The 2 sq. mile seaside town I grew up in also wants to allow far more dense building- thinking it will make for more "affordable" housing. That's not how it works, that's not how any of this works.

We left NYC because I saw the prices were trending up, up, up. At some point my bank account resisted any loyalty I had to stay in NYC and keep taking a beating, or living in a box.

The second article (at R5) is whiny:

[quote]I have been embarrassed by this access [to her husband's brother's wife's family's country house], in the same way I’m embarrassed to have parents who have money, which is to say, I find people having things that they did not earn, or people having so much more than most, to be sort of abhorrent without always knowing why I feel that way. Privilege is abhorrent, I think

Well, whatever. We make our own beds with privilege, don't we? Privilege allows people to take up college degrees and careers and standards of living that they cannot support on their own. Privilege pays for embarrassment and feeling bad, too, and for whinging. Complaining about one's privilege is about as productive as jealousy.

The first article, though, touches on the more interesting subject of why people stay in a place. (And why the don't do as R6 suggests.)

It's easy to understand why people would make sacrifices to live in the city that they regard as their favorite in the world. To me the best cities always display the upside of being a place so beautiful, so exciting, so something that people sacrifice to live there. They find a way. And those people who loved the city so much to jump through hurdles to live there often contribute disproportionally to make it a better place, more than many of the people who merely had the luck or coincidence of birth to have begun there.

But there's an adult moment where, short of everything having fallen fantastically into place, a person has to reconsider what they want. Is living in NYC worth decades of financial precariousness, constant scrambling for work, ceaseless efforts "to put oneself out there", lack of stability, of jostling to keep up and stay afloat, the uneasiness of never having enough reasonable sense of security about the things that we do have some control over in life, all the while surrounded by people who burn through more money on laundry services and maid services and gyms and nannies and private schools in one month than another has for an entire budget for three months. NYC is a cruel city in that no matter what one person has, no matter how far up he may have come, no matter how pleased he is, he has only to look around, and very near, who have vastly more, and so on up a seemingly endless ladder. NYC and London and a few world cities are never ending reminders of what one doesn't have. And won't ever.

For fuck's sake, R6 is right, not everyone has to live in their dream city and make themselves as poor as piss to do it, and least of all when a spouse and kids are in the picture. Sometimes a favorite city isn't the best city in which to live. Sometimes the best choice is to concentrate on finding a city that's one or two or three rungs down on the international destination list and to make a life where you can be a part of the place you call home, with some measure of comfort instead of an uphill struggle to now and again get a chance to nibble at the edges of a good thing. Sometimes you have to recognize that what was a dream at one point in time isn't the right dream for another, and that it's time to reshape circumstances and adjust how you do things. That's not failure (unless you stick stubbornly to the idea that you will make it and everything will be easy and comfortable); it's just the maturity of being able to change your sights and do new things.

Oh Gawd, not this bullshit again!

Yes, by all means tell us again about your "specialness" and need to leave NYC behind. The other eight million of us will somehow find a way to go on without you!

In other words, another run-of-the-mill, barely-employed frau who insisted on living a big expensive life in a big expensive city without having or wanting the kind of job required to support it. She depended on hubby to finance her pseudo-bohemian lifestyle. Now that he’s lost his job, she’s forced to (gasp!) downgrade her life and live like other “Poors” (trademark). Railing against her “privilege” to makes her feel better about it.

Now that her husband’s unemployed, I predict she’ll dump him like a hot potato. And probably write another bad essay rationalizing why she left (while living in whatever setup her rich family manages to give her and the kids). NYC suburbs are full of divorcees like this—and they all fancy themselves “writers” and “artists.“

R17 - all of that AND she gave birth to two kids. Living in NYC as a family of four is not easy - particularly when you want to live in a good area of Brooklyn (probably a good area) and have only one reliable income.

What did she expect? And it seems like she has written a series of these 'i'm poor and it sucks' articles for the Guardian, even prior to COVID19.

Unbelievably delusional and wanting an expensive life on a beer budget. What kind of fantasy world does she live in?

She'd be better off sticking to DL's Tasteful Friends threads after she moves to a dirt cheap flyover town for poors. That's what I do.

This is all RACISM.

The mail carrier delivering your packages, the cashier ringing up your in-store purchase and the delivery person who deliveries your groceries is not earning 6 figures. They are low skilled workers who did not pull themselves up by their bootstraps and do not deserve to live in the greatest city in the world by your estimation. But they're worth more to us in this times of crisis than you will ever hope to be. What will the greatest city in the world look like without Broadway shows, fine dining restaurants, cultural institutions and shopping destinations? We will find out.

It isn’t even the “greatest city” anymore. Welcome to 2020. NYC is dead.

Can we just cut to the chase and say that anyone who goes into the 'arts' full-time without any other job to pay the rent is going to struggle?

Everyone knows this.

I would like to know how many episodes of Sex and the City did she watch when she was a teen and how much did SJP's role convince her to be a writer in New York? You know she did.

Yes, r20 just as calling Vinnie from the Jersey Shore ugly as you did is racist, hon.

I left NYC after 15 years living there due to the high cost of living. Many people have to do that. I sometimes miss my life there, but I am relatively happy upstate.

I have a doctorate as well. Having advanced degrees does not mean you are owed the life you think you should have. It seems clear that neither has a STEM degree. If you got a humanities graduate degree within the past 20 years without having plenty of family money to support you, you are very foolish. They should move to Buffalo or Syracuse, and the the writer can teach at HS or perhaps if she is lucky, a community college.

I studied art history yet chose to major in a STEM field (with a minor in art history) because I did my research and knew that to find a tenure track job is mostly not possible. Do I imagine life as an art history professor? yes I do. But I accepted the reality of my position many years ago.

If you can't make a living as a "writer" you must have family money or marry up. Ernest Hemingway was able to bum around Paris drinking and writing, due to his wife's trust fund.

Everybody wants - is entitled to - the same things nowadays! A loft-style apartment with hardwood floors in a cool, artsy big-city neighborhood that is safe and in which good-paying jobs, good schools, and dependable public transportation are readily available. And it needs to be safe, or a little "edgy" at worst. EVERYONE. THE SAME THINGS. Build this in the middle of a corn field, and people will flock. It doesn't matter. And it better be funky, too.

R26 - her latest novel is called "Want". Get these excerpts:

"Elizabeth is tired. Years after coming to New York to try to build a life, she has found herself with two kids, a husband, two jobs, a PhD—and now they’re filing for bankruptcy." - Ok, talk about writing what you know.

"In Want, Lynn Steger Strong explores the subtle violences enacted on a certain type of woman when she dares to want things."

Yes - there are subtle violences thrown at women who want things. That's some fucked up victimhood bullshit right there.

Because she decided to have 2 kids and work ONLY in her personal writing and teaching, she is being punished for wanting to do only what she wants to do.

I dislike this woman.

I'm not even a New Yorker and I feel like it's been at least 20 years (at least since the early 00s) since I"ve been seeing these sob story essays pop up regarding whether NYC is too expensive or not. Answer: it depends on you. The END.

[quote]her latest novel is called "Want". Get these excerpts:

Ah...looks like she's about to get the FULL DL treatment.

Now if our author and husband and kids move to North Carthage, Missouri and then turns up missing....

(Well, the storyline worked for Gillian Flynn's bank account, and she's worth $12M or so - and lives in Chicago!?)

Boy, she’d REALLY be pissed if her husband just disappeared into the night and left her to fend for those 2 kids she WANTED but couldn’t afford.

[quote] Because she decided to have 2 kids and work ONLY in her personal writing and teaching, she is being punished for wanting to do only what she wants to do.

She sounds like these really stupid people who get degrees in things like Anthropology, Women's Studies, Race Theory, etc. and are shocked to learn they won't get paid big money. That's her fault, plain and simple. For the record, I have some respect for the three majors I listed, my disdain is for those who don't think about their livelihood before they choose their major during college.

The Guardian is famous for these sort of writing by pseudo-liberal, privileged cunts. The writers always make it a point to show solidarity with the working poor by inserting something about guilt or not being as bad off as actual poor people. This invariably comes after whinging about country house or a relative's country house, working from home while caring for baby, having an affair but doesn't want to leave partner with good paying job, or some shit like that.

New Yorkers eating their own. Is there anything more fun to watch? I grew up in New Jersey, out in the country about a 40 minute ride from Manhattan. Growing up in close proximity to Manhattan is fantastic, you get all the perks, but none of the crap. But the city people are entitled and none more than people who moved there from say, Minnesota or some weird place. True New Yorkers have the network, the knowledge, the contacts to make things work. They may be in a complete rathole apartment, eat Ramen, but they do get by. So the natives are here to wave goodbye to the loaded cars crossing the GW, as they tell them as Bugs Bunny said, "Don't say it's been a little slice heaven, because it hasn't".

The city has changed drastically to a complete slave labor market, serving the ultra-wealthy, making nothing of value. Now that restaurants and bars are closed, well the bottom fell out. The natives will be fine, but not for long, because their day is coming next and they better be looking for apartments in Plainfield.

R21: read the excerpts posted by R27.

Do you actually believe the author of those passages is describing the experience of an low wage earner who serves NYC in an essential capacity ? Or do you think it smacks of an entitled, status-obsessed-but-self-proclaimed bohemian rich girl who could pursue her dream of a writing career only insofar as someone else paid the bills for her and the kids? I’d venture a guess there are no NYC postal workers or grocery clerks living in HER NYC neighborhood.

Like R6 said.

Also, anyone who breeds children isn’t entitled to live in NYC. Go to the suburbs and shut up and leave us alone. The city is already completely overrun with children on scooters and aggressive fraus with strollers. It’s enraging.

And again like R6 said - you don’t get to live wherever you want. I would love to move to Berlin. I would love to even more to Portland, OR. But guess what? My job is in NYC, it’s pretty specialized and I would have a very hard time finding the same type of work in other places. So I can’t afford to just pick up and move. That’s reality.

And it is absurd to me that fools continue to write articles about getting priced out of NYC. How is that news?

[quote] Sometimes the best choice is to concentrate on finding a city that's one or two or three rungs down on the international destination list

Thing is, in the United states there aren’t any cities that are two or three rungs down the ladder. The ones that come after NY are a dozen rungs down the ladder. They don’t have international populations, mikes & miles of great restaurants (most with decent prices) with great food from all over the world. NY literally has scores of museums within walking or subway distance. There’s NYC Philharmonic, Brooklyn Symphony, Queens Symphony orchestras. You can see theater & music performed by well known professionals in the community colleges, let alone at the universities. There are 30 public colleges & universities in NYC & close to 70 private colleges & universities.

There are great, huge public parks and 7 botanical gardens. There is public transportation serving 15M people in a 5,000 square mile NY metro area. You have access to transport up & down the east coast. You can drive, take a bus or train to Boston, Philadelphia, Albany, Washington DC, Montreal. You don’t have to fly; they’re all within driving distance.

I’ve been to lots of other cities in America. They’re small. Compared to NY, they’re really small. I remember taking some folks from Johannesburg in our car & driving them from the upper west side down to the tip of Manhattan & back up the east side. They were bowled over by how big the city was. Then we pointed across the river. That’s Brooklyn, we said. This is only one borough. And that was 20 years ago. The city’s bigger now.

There aren’t two or three rungs down from NYC & if you think there are, you haven’t traveled in the US.

The list of chopped liver cities on the East Coast, or a dozen rungs under NY, according to R37.

Boston

Philadelphia

Baltimore

Washington DC

Chicago

As this pandemic clearly shows, NYC has quite a large population of idiot residents who defy lockdown and social distancing guidelines. They're not dissimilar from fundie Trumptards in that regard. This should also serve as deterrent for moving there or impetus for moving away.

Even law degrees are a dime a dozen these days, although there are predictions that COVID related issues will launch a flood tide of litigation. Maybe she can sue NYC for fraudulent misrepresentation.

[quote]I’ve been to lots of other cities in America. They’re small. Compared to NY, they’re really small.

I've always thought of NYC as small.

A lot of the tiny square mileage has NOTHING, but apartments and crappy shops on the avenues. Disney World is larger than Manhattan.

I guess Brooklyn has been gentrified now, but what's there? Nothing much of any value.

This is the way things have always been for artists and aspiring artists. Artists have always had the unrealistic belief that if they could live in whatever big city was fashionable in their era then their careers would take off, or at least they could be themselves in a way that they can't back home. So what if paying the rent is nearly impossible without turning to prostitution or selling teeth, things will turn around any day now, right?

Like, you know, "La Boheme" in the 19th century or "Rent" in the 20th, it's kind of glamorous and tragic to be a struggling artist who can't afford to live where they do, because it means you're not an unemployed/underemployed fuckup or anything.

r37 All true before cornoa. We will see what NYC will look like without all that when quarantine is lifted. You wanna go listen to the philharmonics and risk breathing in some covid? The fabled NYC shopping? T hat was already on the way out with legendary retailers including Barney's and Lord and Taylor's closing shop for good. There are blocks and blocks of shuttered store fronts in prime shopping destinations in good neighborhoods. No one thought this was strange or a heralding of the bad old days of white flight in the 1960s and 1970s! Jobs have been lost during this health crisis and will not be returning.

She sounds exhausting. I hope more people like her leave the city. It will be less crowded. They might even lower the rent because of so many people leaving!

R37 What county do you think has several cities that meet your criteria? I cannot think of one and I’m here scratching my head that Americans are complaining when you have a staggering choice of places to live across several climate types without any language barriers or immigration restrictions.

Think Italy, R45.

And France.

I was partially raised in Italy. Irish mother/Italian father and no, Italian cities cannot be compared to American cities in terms of job opportunities, living standards, opportunities, nightlife.

[quote]I left NYC after 15 years living there due to the high cost of living. Many people have to do that. I sometimes miss my life there, but I am relatively happy upstate.

Miss Sessums, you didn't leave, you were drummed out! Now sit on your broke ass garbage-picked school chair and eat your charity penne!

[quote]Because she decided to have 2 kids and work ONLY in her personal writing and teaching, she is being punished for wanting to do only what she wants to do.

But she was told to FOLLOW HER BLISS!

[quote] Because she decided to have 2 kids and work ONLY in her personal writing and teaching,

What’s wrong with being a teacher?

Are you kidding? No pics of her. No pics of her husband - who you'll all surmise as gay.

What's happened to DL?

I googled her and it says she teaches at Columbia. She sounds insufferable and the type of liberal that embarrasses me - Can’t stand all that I’m so privileged but I’m embarrassed about it so I’m just like you poor people stuff. Still she works and doesn’t seem like the lazy dreamer some are making her out to be. It saddens me greatly that people are being priced out of the cities though. There’s an entire generation of young people in my family, including gay kids, who have never had the chance to study or work in the city. I have one cousin doing a mammoth 2 hour each way commute right now. It’s a shame and our culture will be poorer for it in years to come. It doesn’t t bode too well politically either to have lots of angry, unfulfilled and underemployed young people stuck in areas full of conservative rhetoric but perhaps the internet will offset that.

It is what it is though. People are happy to hand over cities to the wealthy and deride people who have the audacity not to get a STEM education (to the gas chamber with them!) which is a cure all first touted on ring wing sites but now spread all over as a way to blame the middle class for the disappearance of the middle class. The internet tells me this woman lived in Florida at one time. Maybe she’ll find a happy medium in a city like Nashville.

[quote]It’s a shame and our culture will be poorer for it in years to come.

Years to come? Gurl, it's so happened already.

The insane helicopter parenting in the upper middle classes is because a STEM degree or a law degree isn’t enough these days for a kid to maintain the standard of living he was raised in. Just about every artistic form has suffered greatly from the lack of talented young people who can afford to pursue it and it’s not just an American thing. Here in Europe the rise in far right movements is a reflection of how hard it has become to enter the middle classes (or stay there). Even careers you might not think of are affected like being a chef. Too expensive to live in the city and work up from washing dishes now so you get very rich kids from culinary schools and immigrants from other countries. The kid with a great passion for food is instead studying computer science like all the other kids and then finding it is not as lucrative as he thought unless you have tremendous natural talent or connections. We now have a lot of people with no real talent or interest who are coming through the system serviceable but unable to compete with whizz kids from India who will work for less. And so people get angry and easy to reach with a populist agenda. Literature too. I read some books now and think it is satire at first. Many young authors have the attitude of the author is this piece. They have a real desire to explore class and gender dynamics though they are very well heeled and have not experienced much adversity so like a formula every they use BDSM to explore all power dynamics. Everything is so formulaic because I believe the people in the writing degrees and the publishing world are now all cut from the same cloth. A magazine in my city recently asked for a writer with 5 years experience to “intern” for free! Well, who can you get for this only someone with a trust fund and so the variety of voices out there gets less and less. It’s a strange time to be alive and perhaps an interesting time because you can’t help but look on and think we cannot continue on the current path - politically, economically, culturally, environmentally. Something will have to give one way or the other. Exciting times or depressing times depending on your outlook.

Someone explain paragraphs to r54.

That lady things she has it bad. I had to sell my chalet in Saas Fee and I am a tenured prof! NOT FAIR

R55 Be kind, he/ she probably ran out of klonopin amidst the lockdown.

Miss Adjunct is not playing the game correctly. You fight tooth and nail for the tenure track that is offered to you. It might be in Alabama or Dubai. You do not stay where you are not competitive and WHINE!!!!!

She’s lucky she got anyone to marry her...

R54 There was an interesting piece in the NYT that said helicopter parenting happened more where you have more income inequality and less where you have less. It is very rare in a country like Sweden but it is rampant in the US/U.K./China where the difference between an average middle class job and a prestigious white collar job can be hundreds of thousands per year.

Who know what life will be like post Corona but until March 2020 we collectively in most of the developed world were willing to give up everything from culture to the environment to children’s mental heath for the almighty dollar and it was a race to the bottom where everyone but the 1% was set up to lose.

Ms. Adjunct is also privately bitter about the Latino/ African-American colleague whom she perceives to be less deserving but nevertheless on the tenure track. Alas she can't say anything about that publicly as a pseudo-liberal so she has to reframe these injustices in other ways while also showing her obvious superiority to those colleagues. Look bitches, just because you're on the tenure track doesn't 't mean shit, I'm upper-class adjacent because my husband's wife's family has a country house!

Oops yes that looks terrible. My fault, when I write in English I am often concentrating so hard that I forget to format correctly.

r60 that is not true in Europe where reasonable work weeks are routine. Also, incredible facilities available to most social classes due to democratic socialism.

She just isn’t talented. It’s a hard pill to swallow.

[quote] And again like [R6] said - you don’t get to live wherever you want. I would love to move to Berlin. I would love to even more to Portland, OR. But guess what? My job is in NYC, it’s pretty specialized and I would have a very hard time finding the same type of work in other places.

I don't think this is the scenario that R6 was talking about. You're still living in NYC, a dream for a lot of people. When all is said and done, living in NYC and being able to afford to live in NYC, is not a hardship.

People like her are not “liberal” imo. I consider her to be part of the regressive left along with SJW types and most people on Tumblr. I think there is no clear place for them in a 2 party system but they are empathetic enough to be turned off by the Right and libertarians so they believe themselves to be liberals and better liberals and champions of the people at that.

The lower middle class is filled with deluded people like this adjunct. Better she have quit academia when she had obviously failed. There are many things she could do if she's any good in communication. Many of them paying 6 figures to start.

I think it's hilarious how she mentions Virginia Woolf and A Room of One's Own. Virginia Woolf came from a wealthy family, was supported by them, then supported by her husband. Its famous quote "A woman must have money and a room of her own if she is to write fiction" was true then and is true now.

In fact, most writers, artists, and actors all come from upper middle class (or higher) families or they have a wealthy benefactor. This has been true for over a hundred years. No one wants to talk about it, but it is true. It is an exception for someone without means or from a lower economic class to break through this barrier.

This thread reminded me of the one from years ago about the women who wrote about her fiance telling her he was gay and was leaving her (she didn't post about that here, a DLer posted about the essay she wrote).

She had the same entitled, surprised, done-me-wrong tone of the author here.

Good Times. And that thread went on for pages and pages and pages....

R63 What you describe is not the standard across Europe. It is in the Scandinavian countries yes and many Americans tend to believe all of Europe is like that but it is not true. Overall, Europe is a better place to be a mediocre or poor person but no I can assure you that what I describe is absolutely happening in many European countries. From Ireland and the U.K. to Italy and Portugal and Poland and Spain. My ex bf was a writer from rural Ireland. Try affording Dublin! Try finding a writing job that doesn’t expect you to live there and work for free. Try finding someone in the publishing industry who isn’t a privileged upper middle class woman from a leafy suburb who will consider a rural perspective valid. When I worked there (in a law firm as a librarian) the solicitors were almost all plucked from the same few Dublin private schools, what are the chances? Of course it was all connections. He eventually moved to the US when he won the green card lottery and I left for London which was actually a bit cheaper but again in law firms the solicitors were all coming from the same backgrounds and I wasn’t at all surprised at Brexit as there was so much anger from people at how hard it was to get ahead and how impossible it was to afford London. My job had high turnover because the pay was too little to live in the city and people moved on to other jobs or other places. One of the solicitors came to my colleagues going away party, had a few drinks and said “we should just get a few Poles”.

Right now I can not afford to live in the city either and my industry is crippled by nepotism and “brown envelopes”. No I won’t starve or end up on the street if I lose my job but breaking up the old clubs and ascending out of your class and into a better life is a a gigantic struggle. The middle class is also shrinking because manufacturing jobs are disappearing, low paid work is being done by Eastern European migrant workers who undercut the locals and this drives up the number of working and middle class kids trying to become teachers, nurses and civil servants which in turn has devalued those jobs and people in those professions struggle to stay afloat. UMC kids are being drilled to study STEM but they have competition from India for the top jobs and from Eastern Europe for entry level and lower level jobs. Our brightest STEM minds go the the USA.

I’d love to live in the city but I could never afford it, so I don’t. Life is hard.

R70 - the glory of supposedly a good stock market masks the fact that only a few really profit from a great stock market.

There was a show (can't remember) that described the increase in salaries over the past 30 years. In the early 1980's, the highest paid executive at a financial firm made something like 25x the salary of the lowest paid (which was a janitor). Now it is 350x.

This means that the janitor would have to work full time every year from 1670 to 2020 to equal one year salary of the top executive. Think about that. 350 years of work to equal one year of work. It is beyond insane.

And I agree with you - the Brexit pressure didnt come out of xenophobia. The middle and lower class can see what is happening - the upper elites are oblivious to their plight as long as they get someone cheaper.

Della, is that the one where the article's author spoke of having to pick up the kids on foot in the snow, while her husband took their only vehicle to go meet his "special friend" for their regularly scheduled Weekly Rimjobs?

That was a very entertaining thread.

Lol I was raised in Italy until I was 10 then Ireland and college in the U.K. and I’m wondering what these wonderful facilities due to Democratic socialism are? Athletes have to go to the US because of a lack of facilities for starters. In all 3 counties the education systems were unequal with rich parents finding ways to give their children advantages and better opportunities. Not to mention the very rigid class systems in many European countries and the big rural vs urban divides. Meh. We’re all suffering for a bit of over thereism on this thread, the grass isn’t always greener. I think we can all agree that artists have always been primarily from the wealthy classes. Same with sports like tennis and track and field. Most of the tech golden boys are also from privileged backgrounds. I know DLers do tend to be Upper middle class people so maybe wrong crowd for this message but I do think all of us would be happier if we acknowledged that pulling oneself up from the bootstraps and ascending from factory worker parents to a 6 figure career in a major city is the exception and not the rule. If we did acknowledge that I think we’d all go easier on ourselves and I think we’d even see a strong labour movement again.

Meanwhile the billionaires who use city real estate to avoid paying taxes and drive up housing costs don't get an ounce of blame.

It's some woman's fault that she's "entitled."

I remember that one, too, r73.

No, the one I'm talking about is from a very long time ago. (Geez, I've been here since the Pleistocene Epoch) probably before 2010. They weren't married.

The author insisted she had no idea her fiance was gay. Even though he was honest with her, she came across like he had somehow betrayed her. And she seemed homophobic, too. I KNOW! She actually got wind of the thread and starting posting, telling everybody off here.

I KNOW- meant- I REMEMBER

Countries have to start making most of their own shit again. Sell the surpluses abroad. We have to tax the shit out of the rich, or else.

[quote] I was deluded enough, I guess, to stick around. It is that very American delusion which I would have said I’m not a part of, but I still was: the delusion that we do not denounce or depart the systems that exploit us, just in case, somehow, we find a way to achieve power within them.

This delusion is not exclusively white people but certainly the majority of those deluded this way are white. Some whites in this country have been seeing the writing on the wall since the 80's but most went along with all the happy talk propaganda flung around by the media and politicians. The luxury of believing in the American Dream wasn't for everybody.

I knew before I read this that she had rich parents.

Because that's why you take an adjunct professor job that pays less than a checkout clerk at Walmart--because you know that if push comes to shove, your kids won't actually go to the crappy ghetto school and you won't actually wind up eating government cheese because mom and dad will pay for it.

If I were in a job where I knew it was unlikely I'd ever make more than $150K/year (say schoolteacher), I would not live in NYC or SF or LA or any other large city. You can have a wonderful quality of life other places on a smaller salary.

Everything is a trade-off.

What she calls the "secret money" thing is real though.

It's a joke with my friends that the people who the NYT profiles in the real estate section often fall into this category. "Martha Smith, a part-time film editor and her husband Sebastian Smith, a language arts specialist at PS 291 in Crown Heights, recently finished renovating the brownstone they bought in 2018 for $1.8 million dollars. Having put an additional $1.1 million into it in renovations, the couple and their four children can now move in....."

What she describes there is the same thinking that has many minimum wage workers against taxing the rich. There are those who think their ship will come in and they will become rich and when they do, they don’t want to pay taxes. I said ^^^^^ that I lived in 4 countries before 18 and in each one I was astounded at how easily poor people stayed in their place and how easily they believed the lie that by some miracle they would get rich too. I remember as a child in Italy people believed in trickle down economics. One family owned just about every business in town along with a bunch of rental properties and everyone believed that the richer this one family got the better off everyone would be. Lol. They also believed if the were good boys and girls this family would see their potential and give them a slice of pie by increasing their salaries or giving them a rent break in hard times. Double lol. 2020 and the same family is wealthier than ever and the average resident is worse off than he was in the 80s.

R30 - Exactly. If she can only write in her husband supported, family as a back up, white-women NYC lifestyle then maybe she's not much of a writer.

I’m not doubting the experience of actual NYers but in London £150,000 is an astounding salary that would have the average man on the street out with a pitchfork if he thought you were on that kind of money in a public job. It’s the sort of figure that others see as a fortune in other words. A British teacher or nurse would see maybe 1/3 of that sum in her peak earning years. It would be higher than most solicitors and accountants would get. In France a doctor would be doing well on €70,000. Yet the cost of living is certainly not that much lower and Brits will also pay for private health insurance and private schools. College fees of course are lower. I think we had a thread on the differences in salary before I’m always amazed at how high US salaries are and if your parents cover the biggest cost -education - I can’t help but think it’s a very, very nice life. If a couple are both earning that kind of salary then I must admit I cannot quite fathom it and I think it must surely be the best life one can buy on earth without becoming a movie star or founding Amazon.

[quote]Countries have to start making most of their own shit again. Sell the surpluses abroad. We have to tax the shit out of the rich, or else.

I so agree.

The quantities the rich have these days is so absurd and destructive to society as a whole.

I hate to use single examples, because they're beside the point - but that Disney guy, who gave Meghan the job - $67 million a year! I mean, what the FUCK!?

The author of the article suffers most the common misperception that just because she CAN write, she therefore has something interesting to say. She would be better served by crawling off into the wilderness and giving the people in her life a well earned break.

When I lived in Los Angeles I had a friend who worked in real estate. He would drive around and show me houses and say $15M, $35M, $7M and Id think who on earth buys these and what do they do for a living. He told me about foreign investors of course which is a whole other issue across the Western world at this point. But also he would say so and so of Company X and I would google the guy and it would say last year he earned $12M or something outrageous. Back home the salaries are not as igh but have still spiralled way out of orbit compared to the average salary, whole neighbourhoods that used to have teachers (which used to be such a good job people would almost whisper it is a reversing tone!!!) and dentists now have home that start at €1M while a teacher earns 26,000. My parents in their 60s saw a show on property prices recently and my dad said “where were we when this happened, how did we sleep on this” You see it at the moment too with people talking about the market rebounding and talking about how and when to buy back in and meanwhile just about every developed country has 20%+ unemployment and people don’t even have one month of rent or mortgage saved.

Remember the Charity : Water family? That family of six who moved from one of the square states to a two bedroom apartment on the UES? The youngest kid had to sleep in a closet if I remember correctly.

This woman and her story are sadly the Guardian's bread and butter now: guilt-plagued middle class white women dreaming of a smart West London home and holiday cottage in the Cotswolds, yet constantly questioning themselves about their commitment to fighting global warming, income inequality, and Islamophobia.

R84 The thing is it is the exception for a working class or lower middle class child to grow up and find themselves in a career earning $150,000+ per year. The majority of people on those salaries were born into middle and upper middle class families. They may do low paying jobs in their teens and twenties but when the money comes in they are just continuing the standard of living they enjoyed during their upbringing. As such they won’t consider their salary to be huge and they may seem unappreciative and a bit blasé to the average Joe. It is because they have nothing to compare it to and for them just a fair salary and a standard of living they have always known.

The danger for the person from a modest background is keeping their head screwed on and managing their money properly. For a lot of people in that situation earning 150,000 would cause them to totally lose their minds with excitement and disbelief. They will spend spend spend and buy gauche status symbols or they will get swindled because they don’t know how to handle money. Others will be riddled with a fear of losing it and they will not allow themselves to spend and enjoy and they may be far too conservative in investments. They may also feel they are still not on even footing because although they have the same salary, the UMC coworker has no student loan debt, his parents paid his downpayment and his wedding, and he stands to inherit a nice sum for his parents.

When we discuss differences in salary between countries here the general consensus is that the money out is the big difference and other countries don’t buy as much “stuff” as Americans. Mostly though the thread ends with everyone still believing they are hard done by and people have it harder elsewhere!

If you want to live in NYC in 2020, it is IMPERATIVE that you have a cash flow coming in that allows you to live like a duchess. No exaggeration. The expense of living in the city is absolutely insane now, and it's not going to get any better. NYC is over if you don't have piles and piles of money because having to struggle there is a miserable, soul-crushing experience unlike any other.

[quote] having to struggle there is a miserable, soul-crushing experience unlike any other. [quote]

I think its quite easy to rise in class through the meritocracy AFTER you have been programmed into it. It's very difficult to get programmed into it. So if some ghetto kid gets a break to a elite prep school, and pulls his/her weight, and then doesn't study post-colonial intersectional naval gazing at Brown, the earning power will be fine. If another lower middle class kid goes to public high school, makes it into Stanford, jackpot, studies Engineering or maths - fine. They can even go into academia but if its liberal arts, better off be a minority. Academia in sciences - salaries are good - middle class.

Get a prestige PhD and there are plenty of academic posts around the world, but maybe only 1 in NYC.

Or do what every other person had to do - take your brain and your diplomas and work in business for 10 years and see if you fall into a high-paying career.

She's a cunt.

Please r92. If you're surrounded by wealth and status every day, everywhere you look, it really is soul-crushing in a way that being poor in Bumfucke isn't.

R94 It’s relative. To some it’s aspirational. Try seeing destitution, decaying towns, boarded up houses and people out of their heads on opiates everywhere you look.

Remember that young black couple a few months back discussed here. She a wanna be writer, he a wanna be dentist. Weren't they in hock 200K plus on student loans, and earning Marshall's manager salaries in Bumfuckola Soudistan. Both with Masters I think.

Same story.

What exactly does NYC produce in terms of material goods? It seems that it is just one big service economy that just serves NYC. Is there any industry to speak of? Or possibly it is just a destination city, with no real production to speak of. Services especially nowadays, can be had online from wherever, no need for a place like NYC anymore.

LEGENDARY (meh) draq queens?

But r95 those people aren't seeing how the 1% live every time they walk out their door.

R48 Haha, I am not Mr. Sessums, but I am his landlord.

One thing Cuomo has done a great job on is rent stabilized apartments. He has ensured they are locked in for the near future. That is a HUGE benefit for middle class NYC.

There are 1 MILLION rent stabilized apartments in NYC - almost the same number as market rate apartments. That means about 30% of people live in apartments that mostly cost less than $2,000/month - sometimes much less and often being split among people. Lacking the ability - or will - to control income inequality or pricing of real estate, NY has done the best possible thing they could to ensure housing for the middle class.

And at the risk of inciting the native troll, most of these apartments are occupied by long time NYers and their families - not entitled white fraus who moved here and popped out 2 kids and now wonders why she can’t afford to live here.

[quote]What does that mean? A literary poor what?

with comments like these, more and more I'm aware of how deeply deeply ignorant of the world around them DL posters now are.

didn't use to be that way

She is a poor of the poor.

Many solidly middle-class or slightly below upper-middle class families encourage their kids to study STEM majors in college. Not only are these the proverbial something to fall back on careers but they also tend to be recession-proof. They don't want their kids to go backwards, they want them to stay the same class or move upwards. There are a lot of jobs in these fields that pay in the mid $100K range and easily upwards of that with experience. It is the kids of upper-middle class and upper class that major in liberal arts degrees. If they do go on to grad school it's frequently law, MBA, or one of the acceptable liberal arts majors like French or architecture. Most of the people I know/ work with in healthcare professions as well as friends in high tech come from solidly middle-class families or upper-middle class families that are one or two generations removed from lower class or middle-class origins. Most of us had to take out loans to pay for grad and post-grad education/ training in healthcare professions.

There's also a recent trend for trust fund kids with their obligatory liberal arts degrees to work in careers that a few generations back would've been considered trade or lower-class.

These well-off individuals are regularly featured in the lifestyle section of major newspapers here and in the UK. Typically it'd be an article on the trend of young people moving out of the city to live and work on farms or quitting their city careers to become craftsmen. Usually the stuff they grow are described in rarified terms in order to distinguish that brand of farming from those lower-class, uneducated family farmers out in the less genteel regions. If it's crafts or food products they're making, it always has to be unique or artisanal as in nothing too plebeian. Then as you read further in the article, something is mentioned in passing about the farm purchased from inheritance, trust fund, family loan, or that the farm actually converted from land belonging to family. It's similar to what R81 wrote in describing teachers who could afford to buy and renovate multi-million dollar homes.

There is so much dreck being published by the likes of this woman. Truly good reads are few and far between.

She needs to realize her future lies in teaching English in a high school and make peace with that. Maybe Dalton or Trinity will hire her, but only if her dreck sells enough copies.

R104 the NYTimes is notorious for their lifestyle pieces of the people you describe. We've had several DL threads skewering these people. It's never explicitly stated in the articles, but it's pretty obvious that all of them come from family money and that's the only way they were able to become artisanal farmers, furniture makers, soap carvers, basket weavers or what-have-you. The photos show that the houses are always quite large and very well-appointed, and clearly were purchased with funds that could not possible have come from their "back-to-the earth" business ventures.

Sally Rooney is being heralded as the best thing since sliced bread and I find her writing to be dreadful schlock altogether and no better than the snippet of this woman’s novel. I’d love to know the demographics of the agents and publishers behind this genre of white woman whinge porn dressed up as an exploration of class issues.

On the literary angle, she should consider herself quite lucky to have such a dreary-sounding barely veiled roman-a-clef published by a major house, with a solid advance publicity campaign. Such stories (most rejected, thankfully) are a dime a dozen at my job. Twenty better novelists would be thrilled with half of what she's getting.

She probably had a connection there.

She appears to have a lot of connections in the literary community. Many like-minded hags offer her support on social media. This book is the literary equivalent of preaching to the choir.

On an adjunct's salary she might be able to buy an entire block, or two, in Al-Fashir.

So I found her parents - they're both attorneys and have their own firm in South Florida.

She doesn't REALLY have to worry about money. They're not going to be homeless. This woman is imagining problems that really don't exist for her. She just maybe doesn't want to ask for money - but it's there if she asks.

And both of her novels are essentially just her. Maybe she just doesn't have enough imagination to work as a fiction writer if you can't image beyond what's in front of your mirror.

This is the home she grew up in. Yeah, it's creepy what you can find out on the net.

PLENTY of people, even those with kids live in NYC, they're just living more economically and have less space, less stuff, and their kids go to public schools. Yes, if one demands a boughie, bespoke lifestyle it costs money anywhere, not just here!

I'd tell her waitressing is also an honest job that forces you to get your head out of your ass and work efficiently which develops almost every skill you can imagine, plus the money can be great. She should mix in some waitressing.

Serving others triggers me.

restaurant industry in limbo.

[quote]I'd tell her waitressing is also an honest job that forces you to get your head out of your ass and work efficiently which develops almost every skill you can imagine, plus the money can be great. She should mix in some waitressing.

It's not always so easy getting a good waitress job in NYC at a place that pays well. They're much in demand.

Also, being a good waitress at a busy place takes a certain type of skill.

A sour-faced self-pittier aint gonna cut it.

I was an awful waiter. But a good maitre d'.

Jarvis can explain to her why I don't care better than I can.

[quote]What she calls the "secret money" thing is real though

Yes, R81, I had known some extraordinarily rich people and some obviously rich people who slummed it well, but my first "secret money people" were a surprise it was an older straight couple I knew from a neighborhood association who had a gorgeous huge house, and filled with good things. They both dressed very well, clothes with evident quality and everything well tailored. They often mentioned work (for which they dressed as though everyday weren annual meeting of a bank board) but I never knew what their work was until one day a mutual friend mentioned that they were both public school teachers in Washington DC.

Of course I knew they came from money, with their house and a beach house and vacations and taste and restaurant habits, the money was not their secret, but the jobs came as a real surprise. At least they never once whined about their work or their sacrifice (as the six-figure non-profit people like to do).

Well we are entering a huge wealth transfer from aging boomers to millennials and Gen x y z, trillions of dollars

Wow, did I take my childhood for granted. My sister and I were lucky enough to have a mom who chose to live in a modest but affordable neighborhood. She also held an unglamorous but stable job. Only after we reached adulthood did she pursue her passion for travel and the arts.

I really feel sorry for the fashion accessories Miss Lynn gave birth to. Apparently, they are not worth her getting a job in the service industry, or at a big corporation that would pay a living wage? Their need for a stable environment is less important than mom’s pride. How humbling it must be for a failed academic to have no choice but to relocate to her parents’ estate for the sake of the children. What horror!

I'm a NewYorker and the insight in this thread has been fascinating.

Just one question, how all those NY Drag Queens afford to live there? Surely not all of them are trust fund babies.

[quote] genre of white woman whinge porn

LOL, R107. I'm going to add "white woman whinge porn (wwwp)" to my list of DLisms.

R37 I doubt the article writer is taking advantage of all that cultural activity if she (and the rest of her family) don't have health insurance.

Oops #123 Im NOT a Newyorker...

They likely live like crap R123, in ratchet apartments and since it's just them, it's not the end of the world. Some may have managed to snag a rent controlled or stabilized place too, but if you are just one person and happy to live in a studio with sloping floors and old appliances, there are places you can find.

[quote] but if you are just one person and happy to live in a studio with sloping floors and old appliances, there are places you can find.

OMG. Horrid memories of apt hunting in NYC circa 1983. The shitholes I saw!

" I doubt the article writer is taking advantage of all that cultural activity if she (and the rest of her family) don't have health insurance."

R125. I live in NY and had a ACA plan that was $1000/month. My small business is sinking now. Last week I called up the NY Health Marketplace and spent about 45. minutes on the phone. I now qualify for a subsidized plan that costs $150/month ( it does have a $4000 deductible - but still....)

I am sure the adjunct professor has the wherewithal to do the same. NY is being extremely proactive in making sure people are able to get affordable insurance during the pandemic.

The problem with a lot of writing programmes is the same problem drama schools have. To get in you have to have a certain style of writing. Everyone knows what style that particular school favours and students write to that. Once you are in you are critiqued and guided by fellow students and professors who have the same ideas on what is good and what is not. The cost of this education and the fact that employment is not guaranteed means most students are from well heeled families. In the US a token black student and in the UK a token Asian student will be accepted as long as they write from the expected viewpoint. A right wing African American, an upper middle class Pakistani, a working class white woman would have little chance of acceptance unless they play the game and start writing what the school wants rather than what they want to write. Programmes where other students are given a lot of power to critique one another can be particularly stifling for minority students because their experience won't be understood by their fellow students who can be very insulated from the outside world. More than ever in the US and the UK people are divided by income level and have little meaningful interaction with people above or below them.

The publishing world is also populated by these types and the traditional routes for a working class kid to break in have been taken away and replaced by unpaid internships and gig economy workers.

Sally Rooney has written total catnip for these types which is why she has received raves on both sides of the Atlantic. I thought Normal People was one of the worst things I have ever read. I remember a reviewer saying she had captured the hopeless, futureless millennial angst and actually the 2 characters she has written are attending the best university in their country and the guy gets an all expenses paid scholarship to NYU. The girl is a rich kid bumming around Sweden pondering her on/off relationship and I'm laughing to myself that a reviewer thinks THIS is the problem facing millennials. He actually thinks kids who have the entire world courting them to their best educational institutions and representative of the economic struggles young people face? The frightening thing is he probably does. As I say he is the type and that is their limited worldview. The obligatory BDSM was a cop out too.

My friend read it and said to me 'Did we know that when Jackie Susann was on this earth we had genius walking among us' Made me laugh but he is onto something. Until we let people write their own stories and stop green lighting these sheltered rich, white kids who think they have something very profound to say about issues that have never affected them we are not going to get anything that won't make us cringe in ten years.

R129 - im sorry you are being hit. I hope things go better soon.

Thanks - I hope so too. Drinking a little too much but am starting to watch that.

For years well to do white women made problems for themselves where there were none. They apologized for being successful, they agonized over motherhood and how they were comparing to other mothers, they wasted trillions of words pouring over their bodies and other women's bodies...........now they are feeling guilty for having the family money to pursue careers that poorer women and men have been shut out of. It's all symptomatic of women's disease to please and their belief that they have to be perfect and liked by everyone. Men don't apologize or feel bad even when they should. Women just need to stop giving a fuck and if they feel they've had an unfair advantage they can mentor other women or donate their talents to help disadvantaged kids get a start. She would be better served putting a free resume writing class online, starting a website for a range of people to post their writing on life in NYC or using her opening at The Guardian to promote other women's writing than sitting home feeling sorry for herself and berating herself for having wealthy parents.

Perfect summary R130

A good friend of my mother works in publishing and she also blames it on the MFA programs which by their very nature cater to the sorts of people you mention. It then becomes a self-perpetuating ecosystem as graduates of these programs become the gatekeepers and publish their classmates, etc.

She grew up in that house, r113? Has it been extensively redone recently -- maybe her parents sold it? Because it is SO 2000s McMansion on the inside, and she's too old to have been growing up then.

And r96, I remember that couple being discussed here. And their debt wasn't just $200,000, it was more like $700,000 or so -- a really scary number, and they didn't seem to bright. The husband couldn't even get accepted to dental school, IIR.

New Yorkers think this is a New York-soecific problem, but it's not. The same thing is happening in every major city in the world. The cost of living is rising so sharply that the poor and middle classes cant afford to live in the cities, opportunities are vanishing, real income is falling, housing costs are skyrocketing, homelessness is expanding, and the rich are taking everything worth having for themselves.

It's happening in SF near me, it's happening in Europe, hell, it's happening in Santiago, Chile. Remember the riots there this summer? Same sort of issues.

The stand up and improv world has opened a path for performers in the US who would never be accepted into drama schools. The streaming platforms have also opened the door a little to writers from non traditional backgrounds. In the U.K., there have been a few performers who have made in out of the fringe festivals and into mainstream TV but the same opportunities aren’t there and the Americans only seem interested in our double barrell named drama school kids. Another issue in the U.K. is that working class children had traditionally been shut out of careers at the BBC, if you showed up with a Scouser accent, forget it. Then they became more open to diversity and non traditional hires but they still shut out the white working classes so now you have rich kids and black and Asian kids. Aargh. I’m not sure how that goes in the US but I’m struggling to think of anything I’ve seen or read about white working class people. The Conners?

R136 I know and I’ve tried saying that here about London a few times over the years but I always get shut down and told I’m wrong.

Blimey! People aren't posting, they're writing essays on here. I guess the word literary drew them.

R137, weren't some people in London floating the idea of limiting the sale of homes to overseas people who leave the flats and houses unoccupied for long stretches? Or even increase the council tax rates for homes owned by overseas investors?

Did nothing come out of that?

Nah but they did hit welfare recipients with a bedroom tax if their accommodation had more bedrooms than they needed. Totally ridiculous where my family is from up North because there are very few flats. It’s a sea of housing estates with 2 or 3 bed semis but some people sleep better at night knowing someone on the dole is being punished I suppose.

Off topic comment, but did she address how she was able to complete her MFA or work while she had 2 small kids? Everyone knows how insanely expensive child care is in the US. I don't know what it is in NYC, but it is easily $1500-$2000 per child per month in many cities outside of NYC.

It doesn't sound like she (or her husband) stayed at home raising their kids. She also seems to downplay her husband's career and income, but they had to have some serious resources to afford a 2BR (presuming) apt in Brooklyn AND 2 monthly child care payments while she pursued her dream of being a writer.

Yet she talks about how neither of them had health insurance for years and how nervous she was when her child fell on her head and that they weren't able to afford a hospital trip. (Apparently, the kids qualified for NY state medicaid in the end and their bill was reduced significantly.)

Who raises 2 small kids WITHOUT health insurance? That's just bad parenting and selfishness, no? There's so much here that doesn't add up or make any sense.

Her story doesn’t add up but many people raise kids with proper insurance or insured and qualified childcare providers because women have a small window to have children. If they chose not to have them it is still very frowned upon and being a childless women is still a very isolating experience in our culture. The culture has accepted gay parents and surrogates before childless women! Many women reach 28-30 and now realize they may never have the middle class comforts their parents had and certainly won’t have them in the next few years so it’s a difficult choice they have to make and they are destined to take heat regardless of the choice they make. I don’t envy them.

*without

r75 is the only reasonable post in this entire thread.

R144 - yes, blame the billionaires and her rent. A lower amount of rent would not resolve this. In your mind, she bears no responsibility because she is a woman.

If this was written by a man, he would be slammed 10x worse for not stepping up and supporting the family and giving up his dreams of being a writer.

One thing that’s clear from reading these responses is how Europe, America and other developed countries are all suffering strikingly similar economic and cultural shifts, lately. What better evidence of what globalism really is and who benefits from it?

We all know the rich will extract blood from a stone before paying higher wages or taxes. Granted, they give a portion of their wealth to charity, but philanthropy is just another way for them to exert power.

R146 - actually, they aren't giving to charitable causes at the same rates as in previous generations. And I would say the charitable donations aren't necessarily a way to exert power (unless they fund university dept chairs that need to have a certain 'point of view' or similar requirements for their money).

But they are an ego and PR-driver, and it makes them feel like they've given back and not stealing the lion's share.

"If this was written by a man, he would be slammed 10x worse for not stepping up and supporting the family and giving up his dreams of being a writer. "

And I was just about to say "Given a choice between following your dream and getting medical insurance for your kids, get medical insurance for your fucking kids".

No, the time to give up everything to follow a dream is before you have kids, once you have kids, it's your job to get things in place so that soon, your kids will be able to follow their own dreams.

Why does everyone think they have to live in NYC to be a writer?

Because everywhere else is considered provincial and second rate.

Lots of writers have been successful without living in NYC.

I like the way Americans try to lump in "Europe" among the failed post-industrial "rich nations" suffering from immense wealth disparity. The US is KING of this ratshow, and class mobility in the USA is lower than every rich European country. Sure, Spain & Greece do not have the same experience as Denmark and Germany. All European countries offer "1st world" post-industrial infrastructures - such as universal medical care, support for having babies, inexpensive (or free) higher education, welfare for those in need, relatively robust labour protections, etc etc etc. This bitch is pretending she lives a vicarious insecure middle-class life but if she were REALLY, she would have LEFT NYC for a better paying job, or changed her career to make 6 figures, easily, in NYC. Which with an IQ and a couple good degrees, is a no-brainer. TOTAL FAKE CUNT

What's even worse is that this article is in The Guardian. So she's pushing this viewpoint to the British. I guess British readers of a certain class want to read this garbage?

To your point about class mobility, R152. Twenty European nations come in ahead of the U.S. (which places at 27th.)

R152 The complainers on this thread who’ve pointed out the similarities between the problems facing the U.S. and European nations claim to be from Europe themselves, so I’m not sure if your ignoring that fact, or assuming they are Americans in Euro drag.

Interesting fact: the Scandinavian countries have less income inequality but more wealth inequality than America.

[quote] I guess British readers of a certain class want to read this garbage?

Schadenfreude transcends nationality and class.

Class mobility in the UK is pretty much the same as the US. The thing is that everybody with money in the entire world wants to buy real estate or have business ventures in the US and UK. New York, Los Angeles and London are swamped with this. Nobody's clamoring to go to Copenhagen or Munich. US/UK get everybody and their mother from all over the world to invest, compete for jobs etc. and it has a great effect on the native population. One reason why the cities are so damn expensive and natives often can't get a leg up.

Apparently social mobility in Sweden has been greatly exaggerated according to this paper:

[quote] Generalized and long-term social mobility in Sweden in recent years is much lower than the rates reported in standard two generation studies of the intergenerational correlation of income or education. Rates of long run social mobility are indeed so low that the 18th century elite in Sweden have persisted to the present as a relatively advantaged group. There is little evidence that intergenerational mobility rates have increased within the last 2-3 generations, compared to rates in the pre-industrial era. The b for underlying social status may indeed be as high as 0.70-0.80. Such mobility rates are the same as we observe for underlying social status in a variety of other countries such as the UK, USA, and even India and Chile.

[quote] The strong intergenerational persistence of status in a country with many years of generous public provision of opportunities and funding for education, at rates similar to other countries without such equalizing expenditures, suggests that the forces that determine intergenerational mobility must be fundamental to the formation and functioning of families. These may be forces that are impossible to change with public policy.

She's too unattractive to be happy … and untalented !

R158 True. It is not a coincidence that the most unaffordable cities in the West are swamped with foreign investment money, much of it dirty: Vancouver, SF, Toronto, NYC, London, Sydney, Melbourne. It is not in any way xenophobic or anti-immigration to eliminate, limit, or heavily tax non-resident property acquisition as New Zealand and other states have done. Housing stock exists to service the resident population, not to serve as an investment or money laundering tool for foreign wealth.

R161 - Yes, the West has opened up their economies and societies that, if reversed, would never happen in China or Russia or wherever the foreign money is coming from.

Plus, the middle and lower class native born have every right to be pissed off at some of the immigrants coming into the countries.

This myth that 'what's good for the rich is ultimately good for everyone' is completely wrong - it's good for the rich. That's it.

I think this bitch bought the bull of series like SATC, Friends, and Seinfeld where everyone just moves to NYC and finds success. Or she watched Devil Wears Prada and thought that she too, fat and with no fashion sense, was going to just waltz in into the Conde Nast offices and get a job.

R161 When I visited L.A. last year, I was astonished by the numerous brand-new vacant condos that were surrounded by sidewalk tent cities in Koreatown and other parts of the metro area. No one can afford to buy them, I guess.

A question for anyone who's read Mrs. Literary-Poor's article:

Does she ever go into the ways the middle class are being squeezed out of existence? Because the financial pressures on her family are common to every middle-class professional in any city.

Or like most artsy types, does she want to avoid admitting that she's part of the middle class?

I feel for her, I do. But I’m sorry this is not the fault of a “broken society“ or America or whatever. I lived in Manhattan when I was young, didn’t have a pot to piss in, had a good time. But I had the sense to get out when I could no longer afford it. My roommate from 1986 still lives in our crappy fourth floor walk up, and is happy to be there. It’s a fabulous city but not sustainable for most people.

"What's even worse is that this article is in The Guardian. So she's pushing this viewpoint to the British. I guess British readers of a certain class want to read this garbage?"

R153. There is a US version of the Guardian, focusing on US issues for American readers.

I think NYC is a great place if you're in your 20s. You don't get worn down by not having tons of money at that age, as you would if you were older. Move there in your 20s, meet interesting people and have fun. HOWEVER, if you have a career that is never going to make you a ton of money, you need to leave and go somewhere else in your 30s because it will just be a miserable grind if you don't.

That, unfortunately, is the reality of NYC in the 21st century.

"But I had the sense to get out when I could no longer afford it."

And I moved from Silicon Valley to the Sacramento area, when it became clear that I'd never be able to afford to live there long-term. That's the reality of the modern world, people move a LOT, if they're lucky enough to find a place where they can get work and afford a place to live, then that's where they go, whether they love the place or not. I don't love the Sacramento area, but moving seems to have been a good financial decision and I've made a life here. And if I have to do it again I will, because that's how people survive in the world we've known.

New Yorkers seem to think they should be exempt from this process.

There are a lot worse places than Sacramento. I've been there several times and thought it was quite nice.

True, R170, a friend once shut up my complaints about Sacramento by saying "Well, at least you didn't take the job in Marysville!".

But yeah, New Yorkers seem to think they're exempt from the economic pressures that drive people to move to wherever they can work and live. They seem to think they've made a deal with the universe - they put up with the high cost of living and inconveniences of the big city, and in return they get some sort of guarantee that they can stay in NYC and call themselves "New Yorkers" for life. It doesn't work that way.

I know it’s a controversial statement for some, but there are many good places to live in other than New York. Someone mentioned Sacramento - I agree, had to go there for a wedding and thought it was surprisingly hip and nice

New Yorkers are so provincial.

R171 Especially when you are trying to live the "Park Slope Mom" lifestyle, without the gut-reno brownstone and the ability to buy your children $100 t shirts.

But you're always going to hear the litany, and we've already seen it in this thread, that simply nowhere else but New York will do! 'Sure there are other cities, but living in a city without a 24/7 Burmese puppet theatre is hardly living at all!!'

[quote] New Yorkers are so provincial.

It's weird...it's like New Yorkers only look East (towards Europe) and ignore everything to the west.

The poor woman is confused. She believes that because she can type, she is a writer.

New York is full of envy. A lot of it is apartment envy. For parents it becomes about school envy. You need a lot of money to keep up.

I heard that NYC public schools test kids as young as 4 to see if they should be placed in superior programs. Even the toddlers are at each other’s throats!

[quote]I heard that NYC public schools test kids as young as 4 to see if they should be placed in superior programs. Even the toddlers are at each other’s throats!

Would you believe that there are school consultants that guide parents on how to get their children into the top private schools?

A lot of non New Yorkers in this thread going off about how horrible New York is.

Anytime someone wants to start a thread about New York, screaming Marys come crawling out of the woodwork to attack New York.

Ladies doth protesting too much.

I live in New York. It has its issues and wealth disparity just like a number of other cities throughout the world.

But please. Carry on Marys. Tell us more about how provincial and impossible and completely unlivable New York is.

[quote]Why does everyone think they have to live in NYC to be a writer?

Two words: Carrie Bradshaw

Although they'll all deny it!

How many times can she write this same piece?

[quote]Move there in your 20s, meet interesting people and have fun. HOWEVER, if you have a career that is never going to make you a ton of money, you need to leave and go somewhere else in your 30s because it will just be a miserable grind if you don't.

Good GAWD, this speech again, although I am certain it is contributed by a different person each time.

I've lived here in Manhattan since I was eighteen, arriving in 1981. Sure , I was pretty poor as a student, but I wasn't a student for too long, then just discovered how to live within my means, and to not succumb to "stuff despair" that seems to be an affliction we are no longer ashamed of. I suppose people who absolutely have to have a backyard (they rarely use) shouldn't come here at all, in their 20s or really ever, you won't like it.

I've only made over 50G a year a handful of times in my life. I've almost always had health insurance, a decent apartment, and a shit ton of friends and fun. I see tons of movies and theater, and try as hard as I can to use every part of the city I can starting with everything that is free or almost free. My point is I never feel I have to "flee" or move out to start my "real adult" life, as that seems to many to mean a far more materialistic life, which doesn't sound like a trade-off I am willing to make. I really still love it here.

Sure, you always have to make yourself happy, but I haven't found it especially difficult to have a modest, decently fulfilling life here. I live alone in a nice apartment that is affordable (not public housing), and have been able to do the work I enjoy and find meaningful. No one said it was going to be easy (it isn't!), but the suburbs are crushingly expensive as well, and owning two cars isn't cheap. I suppose lots of things are challenging, but the NYC speechifying/bashing gets so old and so predictable, when of course it isn't more than one opinion and certainly not the last word on that subject by a long shot!

And again we have another DLEG who thinks an 18 year old can move to NYC on his own, just like he did 40 years ago. Jesus Christ.

If these mommy-blogger Guardian articles are an accurate example of Steger’s writing level, she should switch to crafting Frau-pleasing BDSM fantasy wizard porn instead. Then she’ll have a shot at being a self-supporting author who lives wherever the hell she wants.

Some people have a very hard time accepting that you can't have it all.

R97, finance

R154, thanks. It has made up my mind about where to move next

She is insufferable with her woe-is-me no trust fund mommy blogging.

[quote]She is insufferable with her woe-is-me no trust fund mommy blogging.

Mommy? Except for the mentioning her kids' schools and summer camp and as expenses, they're not much of the story.

[quote]New York will probably always be my favorite city. As exhausting and precarious as each is, I love every one of my jobs. We love our kids’ public school. But staring down the barrel of another decade of constant worry and part-time work and clawing our way out of the rubble of the second recession, it feels borderline insane to continue as we have.

[quote]The tricky thing, always, about not having a lot of money, is that one seldom has much choice. But, for so long, we have been living as if we did not already know that we could not ever get to a place of solidity within the systems we’ve signed up for. Now that the absurdity of that delusion has been so thoroughly exhibited, it feels worth considering at least, what other shapes our lives may take.

To me the whole thing reads like a not too oblique plea to her parents, or maybe to his parents too, to do some pre-inheritance "gifting" and set them up in NYC (or barring that, wherever it is that they re-establish themselves.) I would wager that she's hit the parents up pretty steadily, and from her tone, I would guess that this has a matter of her asking rather than them offering.

Just a hunch, nothing more: She has a book coming out and her publisher and editor encouraged her to write a piece that would generate attention and she did it. I mentioned in the unpopular opinion thread: We had a focus on mommy lit, which results in an uptick in writing by women, but they're all white women with this same background, so it alienates the artsy and gay types I'd be really interested in reading. The great divide among women is between the "mom relying on a man's income" and the rest of us. The diversity is not in the mom side, but the support from publishing is. I resent it clearly and can't wait for what I hope is the next wave of real diversity of voices. I think social media, for all its flaws, at least introduces me to writers the NY publishing world backs. Fuck this lady and read Samantha Irby.

R180 and R183 - I commented, and I lived in Manhattan for 15 years, so simmer. No one's saying New York isn't a great city, just expensive to live in. Especially for families with children, which is the issue the author of that article is struggling with. We get it, you'd rather die than move to the dreaded suburbs.

[quote]A lot of non New Yorkers in this thread going off about how horrible New York is.

Not so much, really. There's R8 and his hatred of all cities (and rats!) and Covid-19 paranoia, and a few others offering observations on Manhattan-style provincialism or people who left for financial reasons and are glad of their decision. Nothing, it doesn't seem, to take too very seriously or to be defensive about.

I live in the best city in the world—the center of the world, for me. Many people would scoff at the idea of living outside an alpha world city, but I'm confident in my view and in knowing that I can listen to other people's views, even insults if it came to that, without taking serious offense.

Except maybe for rat-fearer, I don't recall any posts that condemn New York as a terrible place, or that condemn New Yorkers happy in their lives in New York. Clearly a great many people harbor some measure of desire to live in New York whether in a way that will always be abstract on one that has more seriousness about it. Very few places in the world of any sort can claim that sort of pull; it's an extraordinary thing.

Different people like different things. To know that is to know all.

"Clearly a great many people harbor some measure of desire to live in New York whether in a way that will always be abstract on one that has more seriousness about it"

Typical delusional New Yorker. Here's the fact: you can have your city. We DON"T want to live there, which should make New Yorkers and the rest of the world happy. You don't want us, we don't want to live there, despite your protestations. We don't wish you ill, we are just tired of your assumptions that everybody secretly wishes to live in New York. Hope your city comes out of the pandemic okay and that you once again become livable for most non-wealthy people.

"Clearly a great many people harbor some measure of desire to live in New York whether in a way that will always be abstract on one that has more seriousness about it."

No. I do not aspire to live in any major city, they're all ugly and claustrophobic. I aspire to live in a lovely peaceful green country area, close enough to a big city that I can visit when I want and take advantage of all the restaurants and cultural activities. When I win the lottery I'm looking for a place in Marin County, Ca!

So yes, I do understand that a lot of New Yorkers passionately love the city they live in, and those are the people I congratulate for finding something the love and attaining it. But when you're wondering if living there is worth all the trouble, don't make the mistake of thinking that your address means you're admired and envied. The overwhelming majority of human beings don't live in New York, because they have zero desire to live in New York.

[quote]The overwhelming majority of human beings don't live in New York, because they have zero desire to live in New York.

I disagree. I won't go so far as to say an "overwhelming majority" but as someone who lives in New York, I've had many people talk to me about it. This is evidenced by the millions that visit here each year. I tell everyone, "It's one experience to visit, it's another to live here." People get caught up in the glamor of the city and its energy. Many don't realize how difficult it is to exist here.

The only reasons to live in NYC are desiring something different, working in an industry that is specific to the city or you have family there. You no longer need to live in NYC to experience "the best life has to offer".

Dorothy eventually came to the realization that The Emerald City was a sham and wanted to get out......... Toto, too.

R196, the overwhelming majority of human beings don't just not want to live in New York, they don't even want to visit New York! So you've had a few visitors talk about moving there, you're drawing your conclusions about the bulk of humanity based on a small sample of people who are already much more fond of New York than the average person, and FYI this sort of thing is why the rest of us have been calling you lot "Provincial".

I visited New York once, I really hated it. For last couple few years I've been telling myself that maybe I should visit again, that I'd like it more now that I'm older, and can just send time at the museums and Lincoln Center and not worry about being uncool. Too late now, I suppose.

NYC is a place to visit and not live, and that goes for the vast majority of people who don't have any desire of living there or those who wish to live there. It's people like Ms. Non-tenure Track that get hung up on what they consider prestige in having NYC address. As if it somehow confers on her some sort of urbane superiority over other non-New Yorkers.

I love New York, lived there for years, totally get the magical glamorous feeling and still have flashbacks of it now and then. But there’s no denying that there are some who are ridiculously snobbish about/attached to living there, like there’s nowhere else. I was a little bit like that myself at one time. This author sounds like one of these people, and it’s the source of at least some of her angst.

If you’re lucky you eventually learn to, as Damone said in Fast Times, “act like wherever you are, that’s the place to be.” Not a bad approach to life.

This woman wants it all and doesn't understand why, since she's ~done everything right~, she can't afford it. Her parents spoiled her with privilege and now she's finding out that she can't afford to do the same. She's not suffering no matter how much she whines. She will always have the safety net of her wealthy parents and her husband's family. She'll inherit some money when someone dies and that brownstone in Brooklyn will finally be hers.

Yeah, Mrs. Literary-Poor is desperately fighting to keep her identity as a New Yorker, and not a suburban mom!

I can certainly understand the feeling, I'd cut my own throat first, but once you become a parent you give up the right to make big decisions based on that sort of feeling. You're responsible for other humans, your ego needs don't come first.

Yeah, Mrs. Literary-Poor is desperately fighting to keep her identity as a New Yorker, and not a suburban mom!

I can certainly understand the feeling, I'd cut my own throat first, but once you become a parent you give up the right to make big decisions based on that sort of feeling. You're responsible for other humans, your ego needs don't come first.

Is living in Queens less expensive than Brooklyn? Could she afford that? Or is she one of those entitled white cunts who thinks she 'deserves' a place in Manhattan or Brooklyn and that anything else would be a fate worse than death?

R39 If you add up the NYC votes Trump got in 2016,

it's larger than the population of Toledo Ohio's county.

(461,174=2016 NYC Trumpers to 428,348=2019 Lucas county Ohio pop.).

The latter, r205. Queens is too unfashionable for these entitled white cunts.

Queens is very ethnic, and would be frightening to the literary poor.

I love living in nyc. I moved away for a couple of years and missed living here, but didn’t really enjoy visiting all that much.

What I really like is doing all those things that you wouldn’t do when you visit. Late night walk along the river, catching a show on a random Wednesday night after work, seeing Rockefeller center from the gym window, unplanned “picnic” lunch in Central Park... I also love the chaotic energy. I’m sure some people are exhausted or annoyed by it, but it makes me happy and calm.

r196, I live in rural WI.

When I was in NY City Thanksgiving 2007,and a few days in Summer2015, I LOVED it. The excitement, the sounds, the reality of actually being at the places you've seen all of your life on TV and movies, is truly amazing. I remember looking up at all the windows of the co-op and apartment buildings and asking myself, "I wonder what their story is?"

Still, I've got my own story to write. I wouldn't trade my single story, river frontage, double-wide, manufactured home in a forest in Wisconsin for a Brooklyn Heights penthouse on the river with Manhattan skyline views; nope, not for anything.

Soon, the warm, slow spring and summer breezes and the tree leaves will be talking to each other. I'll be a lucky eavesdropper.

Traffic, horns honking, sirens and jackhammers? No Thanks.

R210 I am an economic refugee from NY who landed in the Hudson Valley, and I feel the same. Spring has sprung and it is exceptionally beautiful and peaceful here.

I've commented several times here. I was a longtime, diehard New Yorker, but 9/11 scared the living daylights out of me. Never felt totally safe there again. I moved to LA a few years after. I was mildly surprised to see the city just BOOM after that event anyway. So I doubt Covid will have any lasting effect.

Hi Miss Sessums/r211! How’s the charity penne tonight?

Someone send Mrs. Literary-Poor a copy of "Can You Ever Forgive Me".

If she wants to live in NYC on what a writer earns, she'll need to be more creative about her finances!

If you're a writer and you want to live a fabulous life in Manhattan these days, you'd better have fucking Stephen King/JK Rowling money. If not, you're fucked.

R213 Lol I can afford better than Hudson. I live in Rhinebeck. But you seem obsessed with Mr. Sessums. Do you miss him - or the drugs he gave you? Hope you are keeping up with those NA Zoom meetings.

Due my career, I've lived all over the world along with several major U.S. cities. The fact she feels this cultivated yearning for NYC is completely beyond me. It reflects a misguided aspiration rooted in her entitlement. There is nothing in NYC that can't be lived without.

"This is the way things have always been for artists and aspiring artists. Artists have always had the unrealistic belief that if they could live in whatever big city was fashionable in their era then their careers would take off, or at least they could be themselves in a way that they can't back home."

I'm not sure this entirely true. Many, many artists gave it a shot in the big city -and going in they knew it would be a long shot, knew that it would be difficult to live there for an extended period. And after pursuing the adventure for a certain period of time, they left and started "normal" lives elsewhere.

I'll never leave. Thankfully I have rich friends with country houses.

She needs to marry a rich husband.

My sister is an academic, and she told me that one of the problems in academia is that "there are a bunch of women with rich husbands begging to be adjuncts just so they can say that they're professors."

Basically it's no different than those annoying women that were starting cupcake stores with their husband's money 10 years ago.

Is anyone familiar with Caitlin Flanigan? She used to be featured in The Atlantic and other publications. I actually enjoyed her because she was a very good writer, IMO - and, while she was relatively well-off and white, she just left it at that - that was her perspective. She wasn't tortured about it - didn't play the guilt card, wasn't constantly apologizing. Not that she never acknowledged privilege or differences, but she definitely didn't play the tortured liberal and the "I'm really just like those poors" angle.

I forgot about those cupcake stores. The one in my town closed a few years ago.

[quote]And again we have another DLEG who thinks an 18 year old can move to NYC on his own, just like he did 40 years ago. Jesus Christ.

What would possibly stop them, other than shiftlessness, poor planning or the unwillingness to work hard? Shit was still comparatively expensive then too, obviously not like today, but your assertion (and nastiness) reveals that you think everyone but you was just lucky, rather than hard working. Oops!

r224 lots of DLEG's think time has stood still and nothing has changed. "Any young person can move to NYC and get by with hard work and pulling themselves up by their bootstraps! If I did it in 1975 why can't they?" The cluelessness is laughable.

We're laughing at your nasty bitterness, r225...all of us.

R226 - pipe down. Things are very different and the post about moving to NYC in 1981 at 18 and has never made more than 50K per year is leaving out some details. Rent controlled apartment? Partner that makes significantly more money? Some sort of inheritance?

R224 and R225 are right. And I'm technically an Elder Gay.

Rent control used to be a big deal. Is it still?

[quote]Rent control used to be a big deal. Is it still?

There's Rent Control and there's Rent Stabilization which are two different programs with different sets of rules.

Rent Stabilization has been a huge battle over the last several years. It's the only available program that keeps the middle class (and single people) in NYC. Landlords have been trying to do away with it for years.

"But yeah, New Yorkers seem to think they're exempt from the economic pressures that drive people to move to wherever they can work and live. "

But, New Yorkers leave all the time. People in this thread have talked about leaving NYC due to the cost of living.

With such profoud writing, I can't believe she doesn't have a benefactor!

Maybe Kathy Lee Gifford could sponsor her?

R208, it's too so many people avoid Queens (except for Long Island City/Astoria, maybe), because it does have a lot to offer writers and artists and all sorts of people. But yeah, someone who's been ensconced in Park Slope or Williamsburg may find most parts of it too ethnic/confusing. It's usually more than a few Italians down the block or something. Actually, Staten Island and the Bronx would also be good for them.

So in other words these types want to live in a big city but without any of the pesky 'ethnics' and 'coloreds' in their neighborhoods? They'd be better off moving to the suburbs then.

I hope she stays in NYC and doesn't move to some part of the country that she can whine about. I can imagine her complaining about how miserable she is living in Dubuque, IA. Oy!!!

[quote]So in other words these types want to live in a big city but without any of the pesky 'ethnics' and 'coloreds' in their neighborhoods? They'd be better off moving to the suburbs then.

Every American city is like this. The well-off whites don't live around ethnics. SF, LA, Chicago, Boston and all the others. It's not just NYC.

R50, don't you know? Everyone on the DL is a captain of industry

[quote][R224] lots of DLEG's think time has stood still and nothing has changed. "Any young person can move to NYC and get by with hard work and pulling themselves up by their bootstraps! If I did it in 1975 why can't they?" The cluelessness is laughable.

[bold]The One Where YourMillennialFriend Posts Passive-Aggressive Drivel About "DLEGs" for the Million-and-First Time[/bold]

The other side of this woman's article.

Rich Refugees of Urban Corona Hell, shaking things up in a small town, will be an HBO or Netflix series in 3, 2, 1 as soon as production comes back. Look for it in 2021.

R238 Here's a more critical article.

I honestly don't understand the panic of some New Yorkers. You live in a city where crossing the street could kill you. You trust that the driver behind that 10,000 pound vehicle is going to stop while you cross. Yet, people head for the hills when a respiratory virus is making its way around the entire country?

It's probably more about physical/mental comfort than health fears, R241. If you're rich enough to flee for a second home or to simply rent a place out of the city, why not? Instead of being cramped up with your family, you'll have some space to breathe. It's been written in countless articles, but what's the point of being in NYC if none (or little) of what makes NYC worthwhile is available?

If I had a comfortable country house or second home, the thought of retreating there would cross my mind, certainly, if only for the room to spread out a bit and take some air outside (without having to have a dog or a shopping bag as my excuse to leave the house.) Cross my mind... But unless it had a huge garden coming into season and a pantry stocked to the ceiling that's all. Suppose I did need medical attention, any benefit the second home had would be lost; suppose gasoline shortages in a car dependent area, etc.

I'd rather be in a city in all likelihood. Moreover I wouldn't want to rough it in someone's overpriced rental out in the sticks; better to have your own luxuries than fight with someone else inconveniences.

I don't quite understand the panic flight from the city - except the mistaken psychological ruse of a "healthy" countryside.

It's a natural human instinct to flee a plague-ridden city, but I can see why the public health authorities and the rural mayors are desperate to stop it. Some of the flee-ers will bring the plague with them to the rural areas, and they'll be the first to get sick and take up the beds in the tiny local hospitals. So when the local residents they infect get sick, there will be no treatment available for them.

In my region, the local governments around Lake Tahoe are fining anyone entering the area without proof of full-time residents $1000, and that includes people who own a second home there. And this is in a area where the coronavirus measures have kept death rates low!

R244 - a $1000 fine but they can still go to their homes?

So the property taxes they pay on their second homes, the same as the locals, that pay for the local governments - do they get a refund for this?

If they are excluding me from my property. I would want one.

I don't get preventing actual homeowners from going to their homes. They didn't sign a contract saying they'd only use it seasonally - even if that's what they normally did.

The Lake Tahoe area has one hospital with 63 beds serving a bunch of towns and cities, and I can see why the local authorities want to save those 63 beds for the actual residents, because those residents are the ones that vote them in our out of office. I have no idea if any of this is legal, but I haven't heard of any challenges in court, and it does serve the interests of the local residents, and of the public health in general.

The same will apply to any rural area with a lot of second homes or vacation homes, they will want to keep people from the plague-ridden cities out, to protect themselves. So yeah, while I can see the coronavirus causing population shifts in the northeastern US, it's not going to be a trouble-free process. Now, there's resistance to people fleeing the city, soon, there will be resistance to telecommuters moving to smaller towns and cities and driving up real estate prices.

People who own homes should not be prevented from going to them. Sheesh! Perhaps they should be made to quarantine for 2 weeks.