Natalie Wood HBO documentary

....

Natasha has a terrible case of vocal fry.

Lana was asked to participate but declined according to that article.

R3, Lana probably wanted to be paid.

It didn’t need to be nearly two hours long.

I liked it. They only made it to get out RJ's side because the case may be reopened

Another doc? Just let the woman rest, JFC.

Was she that important an actress?

Enough already.

I liked it too, and Natasha and Courtney have vocal fry. It was pretty obvious they hated natalies mother. It was nice to see that Courtney is starting to get her life together.

R8, They both obviously despise Lana, who I'm sure will have a public reaction to the documentary.

R6, The case was reopened in 2011. Wagner has refused to cooperate.

Natalie's death certificate has been updated to COD: Inconclusive

New witnesses have come forward since 1981.

R8, their voices almost made the show unwatchable for me. Your parents were some of the most accomplished people of their day, and you can’t manage a pleasant accent. Jesus!

Natasha on viewing Natalie . . .

“Can I please be alone with her for a few minutes?” I asked. This was my last chance to talk to my mom. Just the two of us. Everybody left the room. I walked up to the casket. I don’t know what I expected my mom’s dead body to look like, but the woman in the coffin did not look like my mother. Her face was harder, her nose pointier, her skin rubbery. It was as if all the warmth and light and coziness had been sucked out of her. Her makeup hadn’t sunk into her face; instead it sat on top of the skin like it didn’t belong there, a translucent mask that didn’t quite cover up a small bruise on her forehead and another one near her cheekbone. Then there was her hair. I thought, That’s not her hair. The color is wrong and it’s falling the wrong way. Her feet looked weird too. Instead of lying straight, they were flopping out to the sides. She was wearing white low-heeled pumps and panty hose. The feet looked like the feet of an old lady, not my mom’s. I knew I needed to find a way to feel connected to her. That’s all I wanted. A moment to feel close to her again. So I stood there, waiting to get used to her pointy features, the strange hair that didn’t look like hers, the feet splaying out awkwardly to the left and right. At least her hands still looked like her hands—the perfect French-tipped manicure and the gold Cartier wedding ring were in place. Diamond studs in her ears. She had her Elsa Peretti gold cuff on her left wrist, covering up the bump. There was a thin cream-colored blanket folded underneath her shoes. I had never seen this blanket before. I reached out to touch her hand and jumped back when I felt it. Her skin was not soft and warm. I told myself, Okay, that’s just because she’s dead. She isn’t in her body. I waited a minute and touched her hand again. This is what a dead body feels like. It’s not so scary. She is right here. I am right here. I can do this. I lifted my mom’s heavy, cold hand and placed the folded letter underneath it. I wanted to say something to her. I started to talk to her in a soothing voice, mimicking the soothing way she used to speak to me. A blend of a whisper and a song. I told her that I loved her so much and I missed her. “I don’t really know where you are now,” I said, “but I’m going to stay in touch with you. I’m going to figure out a way to stay connected to you.” And that was it. I was done.

[quote]The case was reopened in 2011. Wagner has refused to cooperate.

What reason did Wagner give for not cooperating?

Sometimes it is best to say nothing.

Just watch it.

Beautiful Tribute to Natalie Wood. I sniffled through the whole thing.

Just finished it. Not particularly well made, but very touching and well measured. I came away feeling devastated for RJ. Her death clearly ruined him.

There's a bitchy exchange between Jill St. Jon and one of Natalie's kids that's worth the price of admission. Jill just swooped in on the widow and the documentary touches on it. Fun!

Natasha mentions not getting along with Jill

Courtney mentioning Natalie’s mother constantly fainting and running into walls made me laugh. I know it wasn’t supposed to be funny but I laughed.

R4 Or she knew how slanted it was going to be. RJ wasn’t convincing at all.

I find it interesting they allowed the tidbit about her sleeping with the director of Rebel as a teenager then including her lying about it in an interview but didn’t mention her sexual assault.

I haven’t seen it yet but does it appear RJ is guilty or just made a bad choice ignoring Natalie’s cries for help.

R20, When Rona Barrett asked Natalie if she had ever been taken advantage of by a director or producer, she must have had the long rumored Kirk Douglas incident in mind.

Like a well trained Hollywood veteran, Natalie gave her a demure "No", but her body language said otherwise.

R21 He mumbled and stuttered when talking about that night and got a few tears out. Just didn’t come across as very convincing. Of course Natasha kept saying how protective she was of “Daddy Wagner”.

She also mentioned that she has no real memories of Lana taking an interest in her and Courtney when Natalie was alive but that she’s also “literally” accused RJ of murdering their mom and it’s the “furthest thing from the truth.”

Wouldn't the documentary have been the perfect opportunity for Wagner to refute the often published rumor that Natalie found him having sex with their butler if it were not true?

So much was glossed over or blatantly omitted.

Wagner waited hours to contact the shore patrol after discovering Natalie was missing from the yacht.

Three witnesses aboard a neighboring boat heard a woman screaming for help and two males taunting her verbally.

The facial bruises on Natalie's body were consistent with someone who had been hit or beaten.

I always found it odd that Wagner refused to identify Natalie's body and sent the yacht's captain to do it. Wagner has admitted that he never wanted to see her after she died. Only her two young daughters viewed her in her coffin, not her husband.

I really liked Natalie. I didn't know her, but she was very likeable, if somewhat a bit kooky and too emotional. It was a sad day when she met RJ. He was trying to ride her Hollywood coattails. Even after she moved on from him, he reeled her back in. I always felt sorry for Natalie and wanted justice for her.

I wonder why Natasha takes her father's side so much. Maybe I'm jaded but, is it inheritance money she's hoping for?

I haven't watched the HBO one yet but did watch another one recently on Hulu. I also read a biography on Natalie a few years ago. It's poorly written but the information is there. Natalie had beauty, talent, charm, warmth, fame and fortune, but this was a shitty way to go and so young.

I will forever blame RJ. It's as if he killed her because she was going to out him about something. My gut says she had something on him, he wanted to leave her, she threatened to squeal, he had the chance to get rid of her...so he took it.

But they need to let the woman rest in peace already.

What the fuck? I have NEVER been a fucking Butler a day in my life!

Every murder show I watch almost every time blood relatives believe the family member is innocent even if the victim is another family member.

I know a lot of ppl claim Natasha looks like her mother but I don’t see it. Courtney is funny looking too.

R29 Natasha does look a lot like her mother but she doesn’t have whatever that “it factor” was that made her mother a star and that’s why her career never took off (she also looks like she never left the 90s style wise, but I digress). Courtney, especially considering she had two such good looking parents, is quite odd looking, something about her eyes and her nose taking up the entire space between her eyes. And her voice is pretty insufferable. Natasha’s nothing special but she’s likable enough.

Whatever did happen that night (I tend to be of the school that he was drunk and angry and ignored her cries for help), he’s clearly guilt ridden about something and it’s something that he will never be able to shake. It’s not like OJ who’s like yay I’m acquitted let’s go golfing! RJ’s clearly a broken man in many ways who’s had to to live with whatever he did or did not do (and wishes he could undo) for the past 40 years. I can’t help but feel bad for him.

Also r12 did she say all that in the doc? I don’t recall that at all...

I think it was a very nice documentary about a truly lovely person. I remember long ago Robert Blake of all people said about Natalie she could drink any man under the table but she was a hell of a woman.

I think Walken and Wagner aren’t telling the truth about what happened that night. When Wagner tells his side he sounds like an average actor giving the performance of his career. The brief clip they showed of Walken he sounded like a good actor trying to be convincing. ‘she drown’ is about all he says.

No comments about Dyan Cannon and how strange she looks.

I think Jill St John came off very well and she still looks great.

Redfords more obvious as the days wear on toupee made me laugh.

R30, "Also [R12] did she say all that in the doc? I don’t recall that at all... "

That is a passage from Natasha's new book, published on Tuesday in conjunction with the documentary.

Natasha and Courtney have also released "Natalie", a gardenia perfume that was their mother's signature scent.

What's next, cuff bracelets?

When I read OP blurb and saw the picture, I was thinking it her set “trailer” and by the looks of it I was like “wow, they were so much bigger in the old days!”

Surprised we haven't yet heard Lana's reaction to the documentary.

[quote]I wonder why Natasha takes her father's side so much. Maybe I'm jaded but, is it inheritance money she's hoping for?

Well, she probably takes her father's side because he's... well... her father.

But isn't RJ Natasha's STEPfather? Her last name is/was Gregson.

Yes, RJ was Natasha’s stepdad, but it looks like he was more of a father figure than her bio dad. And how old was she when her mother died? 12 or 13? That funeral home scene set forth in her book makes it seem like she was an adult at the time.

Natalie was quite wealthy when she died, she and Wagner owned a piece of "Charlie's Angels" as payment for a film they made for Aaron Spelling.

Variety published her will after she died, which included healthy endowments for her two biological daughters, Natasha and Courtney.

Natasha was 11 when Natalie died and I agree with R38 that the coffin viewing passage in her book is a bit much for one then so young to recall in such detail.

BTW, Natasha is married to Barry Watson, who was on the series "7th Heaven" and is the father of her daughter Clover.

R29, Natasha looked a lot more like Natalie when she was a child.

Not just the recall ability, R39. The description doesn't seem to jive with an 11-year old's capacity.

Natasha looks more like the actress who played Natalie in the ABC miniseries that was based on the Suzanne Finstad book.

Describing seeing her mother’s body is sad. Sounds like they did a horrible job on her. Hard to imagine they’d even have an open casket.

RJ wasn't convincing. He was in some way complicit. Booze and a horrible temper is not a good mix. He also came across as being half jealous of her. He finally had a tv hit - Hart to Hart - and he wanted her to stay the hell home and let him shine. She didn't want to and Walken didn't think she should either. He lost it, probably smacked her, she got into the dingy. Realized she was in trouble and his drunk, resentful ass, did nothing. Probably fixed himself another drink.

She asked two good friends to go with her on the boat. She was worried about him.

R43, Later in the book, Natasha learned that legendary MGM hairstylist Sydney Guilaroff used one of Ava Gardner's old falls when he styled Natalie for burial.

Seems fitting, since Natalie's mother pimped her out to Ava's ex, Frank Sinatra, when she was barely legal.

I haven't seen the documentary. Does it mention Natalie's plan to play Anastasia on stage?

R46 It did mention Anastasia. Showed her in costume. She was excited but anxious about it.

We'll likely never know the full truth, but I've always thought that RJ was incredibly drunk, heard Natalie in distress, and just taunted her or ignored her. Then he passed out, woke up, and panicked because he couldn't find her. But I don't think he murdered her in cold blood.

R48 I agree with your take on it. They were drinking all day and into the night; he may have even been blacked out during the time she drowned. That makes him an asshole drunk, but not a murderer.

Watching this trailer, I just realized that Natalie Wood is what Judy Garland would have looked like if Judy had been beautiful.

R47, That February 1982 production of Anastasia, also starring Wendy Hiller, was already being promoted when Natalie died, plus Natalie had posed for the Blackglama What Becomes a Legend Most? campaign that was running the month she died.

R48 that sounds about right. I don’t envy that he’s had to live with that on his conscience for 40 years.

My theory about her doing Anastasia on stage is that she saw how well Elizabeth Taylor did on Broadway in The Little Foxes and wanted to try it for herself. Who knows if she would have had a success or bombed.

R53, Natalie appeared in a lot of "live" television dramatic shows in the 1950s, so she had experience giving a complete performance.

A lot of it might have been her harsh hair and makeup but by the mid-70s she really wasn’t aging well. And she was still in her mid to late 30s.

My late sister was friends with RJ in the '90s when they had homes near each other in Colorado. She even got him to call my father on at least one occasion to wish him a happy birthday. So watching the documentary had me fondly remembering that man who was so kind to my father. And remembering my sister who left us much too early.

r55, few of the leading ladies of the 60s managed to look good in the 70s -- Julie Christie was an exquisite exception -- but I thought Natalie had regained her glamour as she entered the 80s.

I thought she stayed beautiful to the end. She tanned a lot, the way those rich glam 60s and 70s pool and boating types did, but she was lovely.

I wouldn't say that Natalie Wood is a favorite actress of mine at all, but she's so charismatic and watchable. I can even sit through shit like All the Fine Young Cannibals because of her. I remember when I was first getting into "classic" films and being so impressed by her performance in Love With the Proper Stranger.

The revulsion Courtney and Natasha have towards Lana was kind of hilarious. I wonder if they had any relationship with Natalie's older sister, Olga. Her obituary mentions that she was predeceased by Natalie, but doesn't mention being survived by Lana.

I wonder what happened to Natalie’s mother.

When Rona Barrett ( who probably already knew the answer)asked Natalie if anyone in Hollywood Asked her to do something she didn’t want to do. She said no but you could cut the tension with a knife.

I've had a lifelong fascination with Natalie Wood so I really enjoyed this doc and how intimate it was, providing a glimpse into her family life and the life of her daughters. I was pleasantly surprised to see notorious DL villain Mia Farrow featured in this. I had no idea she and Natalie were close friends. I would've liked to see interviews with more of her costars, particularly Warren Beatty, Michael Caine and Susan Kohner (of Imitation of Life fame) who is still alive and appeared in All the Fine Young Cannibals. I wonder if more people were approached but declined to participate.

Maybe I'm a softie, but RJ seemed genuinely bereft in this doc. I'm not saying he and Christopher Walken aren't hiding anything, but RJ looked truly heartbroken reminiscing about Natalie. It didn't seem like a performance to me, but what do I know? I was happy to see that Natasha and Courtney are in a good place. I remember some years ago, Courtney was arrested for drug possession or something like that. At the time, I was surprised to hear the news because I didn't know she was troubled. It couldn't have been easy losing a loving mother at such a young age.

Like someone mentioned upthread, it was strange the things that were included and what was omitted. They didn't address the alleged rape at the hands of Kirk Douglas or RJ's alleged infidelity causing the end of their first marriage. It was touching seeing Richard Gregson in what was probably his last interview. I didn't know he had other kids besides Natasha. All in all, it was a good doc - very personal. I hope it was healing for Natasha and Courtney.

R61 I agree with you re RJ I guess I’m a softie too. I’m not saying their isn’t some culpability there (as I’ve said above), but whatever it is it seems to weigh on him very heavily. Like you said it didn’t seem like a performance to me (he was never exactly a great actor) but what do I know?

I think Natalie must have been the prettiest Russian in history.

[quote] It didn't seem like a performance to me, but what do I know?

Let's face it, "daddy" Wagner isn't a good enough actor to put on a performance that good.

Does this address why she is the only wood that doesn’t float?

R60, Natalie's mother died in 1998 . . .

Maria Gurdin, mother of the late actress Natalie Wood, died Jan. 6 of pneumonia in Thousand Oaks. She was 85.

Gurdin was very active in fundraising for Motion Picture Mothers, a support group started in 1939 for needy families, now associated with the Motion Picture & Television Fund. She is survived by two daughters, seven grandchildren and four great-grandchildren. The family has requested that in lieu of flowers, donations may be made to the donor’s charity of choice.

That was a point I was trying to make. Rw is an average actor but when he tells his side it's like he must be convincing because his life depends on it. Being a son of an alcoholic you learn how to a good liar or actor or you are going to get your head bashed in.

Take OJ RW is Lawerece Oliver compared to him but he tells a convincing story that many people believe.

Robert Wagner is a golden boy ( young RW reminds me of young Leo DiCaprio ) who most people never challenge I will not pretend to know what happened that night but I dont think their account is the truth.

All these people are. Highly dependent on shrinks but do you think is was odd for a grown man after learning is wife was dead the first thing to do is contact a shrink on how to tell their children?

The director of Brainstrom said Natalie and Walken had no chemistry so they couldn't have had an affair there have been countless real life couples who had zero chemistry on screen. Besides aren't the rumors Walken and Wagner are the ones having an affair?

They had a relationship with Olga, Natalies older sister. She had no desire to be an actress and had a normal life and never asked anything of Natalie money wise nor did she ever make money off of her.

Lana ended up taking care of Maria the last years of her life. RJ supposedly kicked Maria out of the condo that Natalie bought for Maria and nick and moved Katie (Natalies stepdaughter) into the unit. Neither of Natalies daughters attended Maria’s funeral .

Lana and one of her husbands sold photos of RJ and Natalies second marriage to a tabloid and she didn’t speak to Lana for a period of time. In one of the books about her there’s a story that Natalie went into a store in Beverly Hills to buy a dress and asked the store to put it on her account and the store told her they couldn’t because her account was in serious default. It turned out Lana had run up a bunch of charges at several stores and charged them to Natalies account.

I wonder how Lana survives financially. The only acting Lana is remembered for is when Jill st John has her pushed out of a hotel room into a swimming pool in Bond film Diamonds Are Forever.

Funny how supposedly Walken and Wagner getting into an argument about Natalie's having a career I dont think Jill st John ever took an acting job once they got together.

I think Lana lives pretty hand to mouth these days. Her daughter Evan died some years ago. She had been ill for a long time, but I forget what her illness was. When Evan was alive, I think she, Lana and Evan's three kids were living in a hotel. There was recently a GoFundMe for Lana not too long ago because she was homeless.

"Neither of Natalies daughters attended Maria’s funeral."

Are you certain of that? That seems pretty harsh. I should think they would make an appearance, if only for the optics. I mean, she was their grandmother.

Nancy and Tina Sinatra did not attend stepmother Barbara's funeral, but there was no blood relation there.

Ironically, Robert Wagner not only attended Barbara Sinatra's funeral, he delivered the eulogy.

R69, Elder gays will remember Lana as slutty Sandy Webber on "Peyton Place".

r29 we too had good looking parents......

sorry r29 we meant r30

R67 All these people are. Highly dependent on shrinks but do you think is was odd for a grown man after learning is wife was dead the first thing to do is contact a shrink on how to tell their children?

Do I think it’s odd for someone who was highly dependant on a shrink to ask for advice regarding how to tell his children about the news their mother died? Honestly... not really? It makes sense that someone so dependant on their shrink would do that.

So there's two schools of thought on Natalie's death. One, is RJ's version -- that they were drunk, he was completely unaware of Natalie falling off the Splendour and didn't realize until hours later. Two, is the version Dennis Davern gave to the press stating that Natalie and RJ were engaged in a nasty argument on the small aft deck, he pushed her and she flipped over into the water with RJ believing she was in the zodiac, hence ignoring her cries for help (which were heard by another boat moored close by -- "We'll be by to pick you up later..."). Then there have always been whispers that RJ and Walken were having an affair. His excuse as to why Natalie (and Davern) spent the night in a hotel room while Walken (whom he allegedly disliked) and RJ stayed aboard, taking watches in the rough weather is suspicious. If the weather was rough, why wouldn't the captain, Davern, had stayed on board instead of sharing a hotel room with Natalie? Something's missing from the documentary.

I believe RJ thought she was in the dinghy and was safe.

R77, At midnight, dressed in a nightgown, with rough currents?

So Wagner claims that he and Walken argued over Natalie's career and Walken said she had to continue because she was "a great actress". Natalie Wood?

It was also sad to hear Courtney taking about how she spent more time with their nanny than Natalie, and that Natasha spent more time with Natalie.

I thought that was sad too R80. I always got the impression that Natasha was closer to Natalie than Courtney was.

Natasha, even as a child and before Natalie died, just seemed so sad. She looks so down in so many of her childhood photos.

Natasha said that even before Natalie drowned, she always had a premonition or fear that Natalie would die.

R81, Natasha was Natalie's first child, plus she had four more years with Natalie than Courtney did.

Both Lucie and Desi Arnaz, Jr. and Natasha and Courtney Wagner were raised by black nannies named Willie Mae.

I once thought they might be the same woman, but the Arnaz nanny died some years ago.

It is a superb documentary.

If anything, Natalie certainly was a survivor. She was raised by a crazy, superstitious stage mom and forced to perform and financially support her entire family before she turned ten years old. Then she was allegedly raped as a teenager. She transitioned from a child actress, to a teen and then adult actress and enjoyed tremendous success through every phase. That's pretty rare and remarkable in a tough industry like show business. And on top of that, she had great friends, found love and started a family. With all that Natalie endured, she could have ended up a tragic Hollywood statistic, but she found a way to thrive until that drowning on the Splendor ended it all.

They only showed a couple of seconds of the scene where Natalie, as a child, had to cross a rickety bridge to get to safety. The bridge gave way too early and Natalie grabbed onto a post of the disintegrating structure while the rushing "dark water" coursed by just below her. They don't cut the scene immediately. They just let her hang there for a while longer. This is where she got her fear of water and also the bone spur on her wrist. In one of the Roddy McD home movies you can see her trying to be a good sport as someone takes her into the water off Malibu, joking around. She laughed but you could tell she was scared.

The bridge scene. Poor little Natalie. Her mother was a bitch.

Natasha said who isn’t afraid of dark water? I wonder if she will change her tune once Wagner dies.

In the doc it looks like Natasha is wearing the sea shell bracelet her mother used to cover her wrist in Splendour in the Grass.

I think she had a bad experience on the set of the star as with a scene in the water.

^ from the TCM page. Fourteen-year-old Natalie Wood played Bette Davis' daughter in The Star. The two developed a life-long friendship during the filming, thanks in part to one incident. The young Natalie Wood could not swim and was frightened of the water. All along she had told the director she would not be able to do a scene that called for her to jump off a boat and into the ocean. The teen was in tears when Bette Davis appeared. According to Natalie Wood's sister Lana, Davis said Natalie would not do the scene and "if any more orders to the contrary were attempted, Miss Davis would walk off the set and close down the picture." Lana states her sister, "always said that it was Bette Davis who first caused her to realize that speaking up ­ and out ­ wasn't a bad thing to do."

R84 Still, it seems strange to me that she'd spend what sounds like SIGNIFICANTLY more time with one child than the other. It's actually surprising that Courteney wasn't/didn't appear to be the "favored" child, because she was the biological child of both Natalie and RJ. Natasha seemed to luck out by still having 2 parents after Natalie died, Courtney had the nanny??

Do they recount one of my favorite stories? She was with a group of young Hollywood actors, the only one I recall being Dennis Hopper, and playing at being nouveau riche, so they filled a bathtub with champagne and Natalie hopped in first. Immediately, she hopped out and screamed that her pussy was burning and they had to rush off to the hospital.

More from Natasha's book . . .

In my mother’s will, it stated that Lana was to have her wardrobe, perhaps because the sisters had always worn similar clothes and traded outfits when they were girls and teenagers. My mother probably never imagined she would die so young and suddenly and that Lana would take the bequest so literally. She had been dead for less than a month when Lana came to take away her clothes. Courtney and I had stayed home from school that day because some kids were teasing us about our mom’s death. Liz looked out the window from my mother’s office, which was in her bedroom, and saw Lana and two friends pull up with a U-Haul. Lana rang the doorbell and told Liz that she had come to get our mom’s clothes. Liz told her that the will had not even gone to probate. Lana replied that she had come to take what was rightfully hers. She told Liz she was worried pieces of the clothing would get lost or misplaced if she didn’t come sooner rather than later. Liz called my dad at the studio and told him what was going on. He said, “Just let her come in and take the clothes.” Courtney and I were both upset and afraid. We were worried about what the closets would look like without any of our mother’s things. I remember sitting on my mom’s bed and watching as Lana and her two friends pushed rolling racks into the room. They commandeered her closet with the efficiency of a military operation. I watched them go in and out with armfuls of clothes. In and out. Back and forth. I do not recall any comfort or tenderness from Lana that day. She coolly went about her business. At some point, I went into my mom’s smaller closet, where her nighties and bras were kept. The room was dark and still smelled like her. I wanted some of the pale, puffy bras she always wore. I took a couple and some nighties and then got back into her bed. I asked Lana why she was taking my mom’s bras, underwear, and nighties. She told me, “Your mom wants me to have them.” Three hours later, Lana and her friends had emptied my mom’s closets. Every thread of my mom’s beautiful and elaborate wardrobe—her original Edith Head gowns, her striped T-shirts, her soft lavender dresses, her rainbow of silk shirts, the fancy outfits she wore when she went out, her shoes, coats, handbags, even the rest of her nightgowns and undergarments—was gone. Only blank space was left behind. My dad offered to pay Lana for some important pieces, sending her a check for eleven thousand dollars for a few fur coats that he wanted to keep for Courtney and me. She returned the furs, but she wouldn’t allow him to pay her for anything else. A few weeks later we found out that Lana had sold all my mom’s clothes to a resale store, even though she had promised my dad she wouldn’t. Apparently she didn’t have room in her apartment to keep them all. The resale store hung a sign in the window advertising that the clothes “Belonged to Natalie Wood.” My dad was furious. My mother would have hated that her clothes—right down to her undergarments—were on public display, ending up in the closets of strangers and collectors. None of us were able to forgive Lana for that. After that, my aunt was no longer welcome in our home.

Wow, that is some good tea R96. Did you purchase the book? If so, how much is it? Lana should have put some of that stuff in storage and then sold it at auction. She could have made a lot of money. She sounds really tacky.

[quote]She sounds really tacky.

She sounds really awful. What a nasty piece of work.

I’m sure we will hear Lana’s side soon. If not she probably has more good in her than we assume. Wagner did kick the wacky mother out of her condo and Lana did take care of her the last years of her life. When they talk about her mother they say she was an extreme drama queen There are worst things to be Of course if theNatalie stories are true about her childhood she was a monster.

Never let children do documentaries about their parents.

Let them do celebrations.

I'm watching the documentary now.

This is so weird. At an hour nine minutes, Natalie is doing a scene on location in Research Triangle Park.

It is my father's office. (Only he didn't have tacky horse pictures on the wall -- that is all set decoration.)

R97, $14.99, Amazon Kindle.

I have a soft spot for Lana because she believes RJ has never told the whole story. Maybe she was living her life in Natalie's reflected glory and did some tacky things but she knew her sister before he did and she just wants the know the truth. The thing that really haunts me about what happened is the story Mart Crowley told about Natalie's mother at the funeral. She told him that if he was on that boat, her daughter would still be alive.

That was strange having Natasha do the interviewing The late great Robert Osborne would have been better. Or any other hosts. It came from Amblin is was probably Steven Spielberg’s idea.

It still think it was very nice. It takes the focus off of her terrible death by showing what a beautiful Person she was.

About 20 years ago, a friend of mine who is a major Natalie Wood fan, purchased several stuffed animals from Natalie's vast collection. He purchased them directly from Lana, who somehow had possession of them.

Lana, in turn, connected my friend with a man who owned a vintage Mercedes Benz once owned by Natalie. My friend was very interested in purchasing it, but the man was only willing to sell my friend the steering wheel.

R103, What Mrs. Gurdin said to Mart Crowley was true. Natalie's friend, Delphine Mann, said in the documentary that she still regrets to this day declining Natalie's invitation, because that weekend was her son's birthday. Another person on the Splendour that weekend would have altered the dynamic.

[quote]The late great Robert Osborne would have been better

Robert Osborne has been dead for 3 years.

[quote]The director of Brainstrom said Natalie and Walken had no chemistry so they couldn't have had an affair

They weren't. RJ was sucking Walken's cock, which is why Natalie stormed off the boat.

"What reason did Wagner give for not cooperating?"

Maybe because he's sick of retelling what's he's been saying all along for the millionth time?

It's been fucking decades and people are STILL trying to make it seem like foul play was involved in Natalie Wood's death. If there had been any, ANY real evidence linking Robert Wagner to the death of Natalie Wood he would have been arrested years ago. But there is no evidence suggesting such a thing. Just a lot of gossip and speculation and changing stories from "witnesses."

Robert Wagner is NINETY years old. At his age, he shouldn't have to be putting up with this shit still.

R107, Oh, dear!

R109 = Robert Blake

"I have a soft spot for Lana because she believes RJ has never told the whole story."

Your "soft spot" is misplaced. The talentless Lana leeched off her famous, prettier, talented sister. In a bio of Natalie Gavin Lambert revealed Lana for the trash she is, a money grubbing loser.

R112, Gavin Lambert wrote that book at the request of RJ Wagner, who wanted to retaliate against Suzanne Finstad's book "Natasha" with one he could control.

I watched it. Wagoner praising Walken was such bullshit. Walken has never spoken about what happened and knows what happened. My guess is that Wagoner was a controlling psycho husband (typical Hollywood personality) and was threatened by Walken stealing his woman, which is why they were fighting. Wagoner may not have strangled Wood, but his irrational belligerent controlling behavior, caused Wood to flee, thereby climbing into the dingy and falling in the water drunk, and drowning. He was too busy fighting with Walken to realize that she was in the water and drowning. He's responsible for her death, but not guilty of killing her.

I dont understand why they were so hellbent on going out on the water that weekend. By all accounts, the weather was terrible which is why so many people declined to join them. They should have waited for a weekend with safer weather.

Witnesses allegedly heard a woman crying for help and two men tainting her...

Natasha said Brainstorm was halfway finished but I thought Natalie was only needed to film one scene. I have no memory of watching movie ( except for the Louise Fletcher death scene) but I remember one film critic calling it Natalie’s best adult performance.

It appears the families favorite hobbies were boating and therapy.

R115, Some of those who declined the invitations to join them on the yacht cited the obvious tension between Wagner and Walken at the house that Thanksgiving weekend, in addition to the inclement weather.

"two men tainting her..."

LOL!

R116, Natalie did only have a scene or two to complete. It was the special effects that held up the release of "Brainstorm" for a year.

Just realized that myself. At last you didn’t say the usual oh dear

Siri says taunting

A little OT, but I’ve never really understood, do women have taints or just men?

R114 Christ, it’s WAGNER not Wagoner. You could’ve saved yourself time and just typed RJ too.

R114 Christ, it’s WAGNER not Wagoner. You could’ve saved yourself time and just typed RJ too.

Interesting question R121. I've never thought of that. Admittedly, thoughts of the female anatomy has never taken up a lot of my time.

More of Natasha on Lana . . .

A lot of the arguments between Lana and my mom revolved around money—I remember walking into my mom’s bedroom and hearing my mother tell Liz that Lana had asked her for money yet again. Liz remembers that Lana would go to boutiques where my mom had house accounts and charge clothing. “Put it on Natalie’s account!” she would say. At the end of the month, Liz would receive the bills for clothes my mother had never purchased. When my mom would ask Lana about the charges Lana would become defensive and another cold front would move in between the two of them. Another story I’ve heard from those times is that Lana asked my parents for seven thousand dollars so her daughter, Evan, could go to private school, but instead used the money for her own plastic surgery, having her nose narrowed to look more like my mother’s. It can’t have been easy for Lana to grow up with a sister who was a star. Even though she was able to carve out a brief career for herself in Hollywood, she was always overshadowed by her sister’s fame, not to mention her own mother’s obsession with Natalie. Years later, I read an article about Lana where she told the interviewer: “Natalie was the embodiment of what my [mom] longed for in life. She worshipped Nat, I was the forgotten daughter.… After Nat died, it turned out that she was stuck with the daughter she didn’t really care about that much.”

I was at Westwood Cemetery where Wood is buried one afternoon and nearly bumped into Wagner who was there with the two girls.

I haven’t watched the doc yet, but after hearing all this I could believe her taking herself out to get away from all these awful people.

What screwed up family dynamics. Both Maria and Lana were obsessed with Nat. It's so creepy to get plastic surgery to look like your sister. That's Kylie Jenner territory.

r128 It's sad. I still blame the mother though.

Lana sounds like quite a cunt.

This is what happens when parents live vicariously through their children.

It would've been better if they didn't go into her death at all, even if that's why most people watched. It just tried to cover a little of everything and ultimately felt all over the place and shallow. I wish they delved into her films more and her depression. They briefly talk about her suicide attempt like a goofy aside with was bizarre.

I wish they had been more honest about her career. By the mid-60s, her career was fading quickly. The likes of Jane Fonda, Julie Christie, and Faye Dunaway were rising and she was falling. She got one last big hit with "Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice", then that was pretty much it. That clearly caused a lot of frustration and pain for her. Though she still remained America's Sweetheart in the media until the end.

Yeah, her film career definitely fell off after "Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice". I always thought she left voluntarily to start a family (Natasha was born in 1970). But I guess she was a product of the old Hollywood system and filmmaking changed so dramatically in the seventies.

R73 Bruce Willis may have had a certain kind of appeal to some but he definitely wasn’t traditionally good looking and he had the type of features that look horrible on a woman. And Demi Moore was striking but again not a traditional beauty with traditional features. RJ was a pretty boy whose looks should have translated gorgeously on a woman, and Natalie was a traditional girl next door beauty with a cute little nose and lovely features. It’s amazing they didn’t have extremely good looking children (and Courtney is downright odd looking).

[quote] I dont understand why they were so hellbent on going out on the water that weekend.

They loved Catalina Island, and had had wonderful experiences there. They were eager to go back because it was such a happy place for them.

I could never believe Wagner had anything to do with her death (other than upsetting her by getting into the fight with Walken about her career) because he had no plausible motive to kill her. They were all drunk (as he admits), and she went out to stop the noise of the rowboat because its banging against the main boat's hull annoyed her. it was night, she was drunk and couldn't swim and slipped. He and Walken were drunk and didn't hear her cries for help, which were not as loud as the noise of the rowboat banging against the main boat.

R136 Apologist.

Does she discuss her movies? Always wanted to hear her thoughts on West Side Story.

They didn't discuss her film career in that much depth (film by film). There was an odd moment where they discussed how Natalie wouldn't have been cast as Maria if the film was made in accordance with today's standards. Obviously, they have a point, but it added no insight.

The commercial the documentary shown she did let us know her career was faltering a bit Although doing a movie with Walken which I believe was right after his Oscar win and the enormous praise he got for The Deer Hunter at the time was a very big deal

West Side Story was discussed R138. They referred to it as her most iconic role and mentioned how she would never be cast as Maria in this day and age because she wasn't Puerto Rican. I think it was their attempt to be woke and address how much times have changed racially. Unfortunately, they didnt mention the fact that her singing voice was dubbed by Marni Nixon and whether that was a source of embarrassment for her.

I don’t why why she would be embarrassed. She played the role beautifully. I believe she did her own voice in Gypsy the songs aren’t as difficult to sing as WSS she wasn’t bad but she wasn’t very good either.

Thanks so much all from r138

[quote]What reason did Wagner give for not cooperating?

It was never addressed; I felt dirty watching this whitewash. That said, the silver lining was family movies that you'd never have gotten with an objective film.

Always wanted to see her in a role like Audrey Hepburn in They All Laughed. Middle aged, sexy, paisley scarves!

In his interview with Natasha, Wagner completely glossed over the fact that he waited HOURS before calling the shore patrol and instructed Dennis Davern, the yacht's captain, to hold off on calling them.

We should have seen it coming.

[quote]Natasha said Brainstorm was halfway finished but I thought Natalie was only needed to film one scene.

That is not true. They had only filmed the scenes on location (at Burroughs Wellcome headquarters in RTP, NC -- a Paul Rudolf building -- and at Kitty Hawk and Duke.) All the interiors were yet to be shot at the studio.

It actually screwed up the whole movie. Because any scenes that Natalie had dialogue in had to be scrapped. And they did awkward things like shooting a body double in a big hat from behind while other actors talked to "Natalie."

Three drunks on a boat who were fighting with each other.

What could possibly go wrong?

I find Wagner's explanation for why it was only Natalie who left to stay at a hotel unconvincing.

He and Walken were pampered celebrities. They didn't need to stay on a rocking boat to make sure it was OK. That's what he paid the crew to do.

R148, Absolutely not true. Natalie was only needed for about three more scenes and at least one was just a "drive by", where she was seen riding in a car.

They either rewrote or eliminated her uncompleted scenes.

Louise Fletcher gave an interview after Natalie's death confirming that the film was very near completion before her drowning.

Douglas Trumbull took roughly a year to add the special effects and THAT is what delayed the film's release.

R150, Natalie did not go ashore alone. She spent Friday night in a hotel with Dennis Davern, the Splendour's captain.

She booked two rooms on her AMEX, but asked Dennis to sleep in her room as she hated being alone.

They returned to the yacht the following morning.

[quote]She booked two rooms on her AMEX, but asked Dennis to sleep in her room as she hated being alone.

HOAR!

Watching it now. God, Natalie was beautiful, more beautiful than Elizabeth Taylor in my opinion.

I was always curious about Richard Gregson, he looked rather dashing. He died last year.

Yes, Natalie was very beautiful.

But I thought she was a horrible actress (except when she was a child). She showed subtly in Miracle on 34th Street that she never showed as an adult.

Even the clips in this documentary scream "OVER-Actress!"

Natalie was engaged to "Ladislav Blatnik, the shoe king of Venezuela"?

Yes, Natalie was truly gorgeous and shaped like a delicate doll. I know, MARY!

R156 He had BDF

Can you imagine what Natalie's Blotnick children would've looked like?

I agree that Natalie was a better child actor than an adult one. Her childhood acting was more natural and subtle as someone said upthread. Her teen and adult acting was theatrical and melodramatic.

Poor Courtney, describing how she got the news. She seems so fragile.

Her acting was what I would call stylized. I liked it.

Her acting style better suited the stage. She always had a least one scene where she played to the back row.

R160 Can you remind me? I just remember Natasha’s recollection. Clearly, the documentary didn’t fully hold my attention.

R162 “I said, turn it off! Nobody laughs at me! Because I laugh first!”

R163 She was awakened by the Nanny, heard all the crying, came down the stairs, RJ told her. It's more how devastating she seemed in the telling.

God, you look at that bathtub scene in Splendor in the Grass and think about how shocking that scene was back then! She's simply screaming she's unclean! Then I think about all these girls on sites like Chaturbate shoving things inside of themselves in public view and I'm shaking my head. What has happened to society? What has happened to our youth?

She was afraid of dark water! She was afraid of dark water! So what the fuck was she doing sleeping on a boat at night?

Apparently, none of the idiots partying in their yachts around Catalina Island that night could be bothered to determine whether a woman screaming for help in the water was actually drowning.

Maybe they thought she was waving, not drowning?

Joan Rivers didn't understand what Natalie was doing on that boat at night, either:

[quote]I'm deathly afraid of Kirstie Alley; you don't see me showing up at the Scientology Center at 2:00 A.M. with a box of Twinkies.

'

[quote]Apparently, none of the idiots partying in their yachts around Catalina Island that night could be bothered to determine whether a woman screaming for help in the water was actually drowning.

They'd all seen her histrionic movies. They knew that Natalie screaming was hardly noteworthy.

I'm a dirty girl mama.

It was the Hollywood version of Kitty Genovese.

Hello, Kitty!

I loved the minimalist kitchen in the RJ interview about that night. Tasteful.

I enjoyed the documentary. Its pretty clear Robert Waggoner didn’t murder Natalie. They were all drunk and high.

Aside from the alch did anyone get a peak at the drugs listed in her system? What were they?

No uppers but lots of drowners.

R175 Waggoner?

I disagree with some in this thread. Natasha and Courtney are lovely ladies and look like their mom. They're just not twenty-year-olds anymore. I don't hear the vocal fry with Natasha. I do hear it with Courtney but that's probably due to her former drug use.

^ Neither of them are as grotesque looking as Katie Wagner, to be fair.

"Wood was taking at least eight prescription drugs, including Darvon — then a popular pain killer — at the time of her death. She was also taking Antivert, a pill that combats nausea and sea sickness. Another drug, Dalmane, is taken to fight insomnia." and a BAC .14

R181 I get sea sick why the hell would you buy a boat and go on it every weekend if you get that way? Especially during rough weather it’s murder on your stomach.

I’ve never heard of that Antivert drug though I’m gonna look it up.

She was an old drunk whore who died screaming and flailing. While two better men looked and laughed. There's no mystery. Natalie had no talent and her looks were long gone. Her husband was a lightweight creature with a cruel streak. She had grown sloppy. In the water in your nightgown and slippers, angrily rowing away. She wasn't even really pretty but the eldergays have some weird soft spot for her. But then all their spots are soft now. Natalie Wood doesn't rate more than 17 minutes of documentary. That's how long I lasted. She was a cute kid, nothing special. Hot little lolita teen number and then a very bad actress until her lungs filled with water. HELP. How would they even know she was being serious?

You are a horrible person r183.

You are a horrible person r183.

R182 - I would guess that she did it for RJ and her family, despite her fears.

I would have eaten her pad snhuf!

I am intrigued by all this interest in Natalie, as an elder gay she never seemed to be an object of gay discussion or have an iconic stature in gay culture compared to so many others. And that’s on top of being the fluff in a sandwich between James Dean and Sal Mineo in one of the most iconic movies. Dying youngish, and so mysteriously, should have almost guaranteed a worshipful interest by the gays, but not really. Do young gays have any idea who she is, maybe outside the musical theater nerds who I would think have only distain for her since she didn’t sing her own numbers in WSS? And while Gypsy is revered by gays, that seems to hinge completely on the stage versions and not the film that seems forgotten.

Natalie was known to be gay-friendly, being a pal of Mart Crowley. But I think the way she died has completely overwhelmed her career, same as with Brittany Murphy, and the tragic star appeals to movie gays.

A friend told me he was outside a tennis tournament at Forest Hills back in the 60s and he walked past a random limo. He saw a pair of long legs inside and asked the driver who it was. The driver stepped back from the car, swept his arm at the door and said in a loud voice "Miss Natalie Wood" like he was introducing her on the Hollywood Palace or something.

Everybody’s afraid of the dark water especially at night, not just Natalie.

R190, Natalie was only 5'2".

Natalie made a cameo appearance in "The Candidate" as a favor to Robert Redford.

R188 Maybe because her life was relatively, and I stress *relatively* happy for a child of Hollywood. She had bumps, of course, but at the end she had the nice family life, she wasn't a mess in public. There wasn't that much to think about her, until she died so tragically.

Natasha's daughter Clover looks like her dad Barry Watson of 7th Heaven fame. Cute kid.

[quote] I would guess that she did it for RJ

It always amuses me when fans refer to famous people with the names only their friends and/or family used.

Like when people on here talk about "Betty Bacall."

You know, because they were dear friends of hers.

I refer to Barbara Stanwyck as “Missy.” Guilty as charged.

I too have a fear of drowning and have had some close calls but have also done some reckless things for the sake of other people. For example I was at the beach once with my boyf and we discovered there was a sand bank past the point where I could stand but I willingly went out to it for his sake. He was a strong swimmer and me not and I didn't stay there very long, fearful the damn thing would collapse. But I tried. Also I travelled in a ferry at night with someone. Granted the latter had lifeboats and life jackets in case of an accident but I was too scared to sit outside anyway during the journey.

[quote]I am intrigued by all this interest in Natalie, as an elder gay she never seemed to be an object of gay discussion or have an iconic stature in gay culture compared to so many others.

Although her death was sudden and shrouded in mystery, she was never really a tragic figure. She was beautiful but her acting was kind of unremarkable and hammy, she wasn't a singer or dancer, she wasn't aligned with gay causes... She was fundamentally lacking in that level of blinding, blazing, larger than life essence required to be a gay icon...

R199, Natalie will be remembered and missed for decades to come. You, however, will be forgotten the moment after you die.

Some gays may have hated her for West Side Story but when it was said that she had discovered RJ with another man and then decided to remarry him we changed their minds. Plus her being left alone in the water at the end has us all want to save her even though that is impossible.

... we changed our minds.

R200 Did we hit a sore spot? Trying to make "Natale Wood, Gay Icon" happen with your 40+ posts on this thread ain't gonna do it, I'm afraid. But if you're here to help shill her book, the family thanks you.

R200 fans are adorable. When they're not being cunts.

One thing I've always given her credit for is that she was terrific in scenes of hysteria. There is the bathtub scene in Splendor and a bar scene in This Property is Condemned. She knocked those out of the park (IMO).

I have a soft spot for Property. It's a story by Tennessee, a young and always good Mary Badham, a great looking young Redford (and a hot Charles Bronson) and I loved Natalie in it.

I have to look up Mary Badham. What a short filmography!

Sadly, yes R 206. But she was so terrific playing Scout in To Kill a Mockingbird that I think she should be recognized for her work in that. One of the best book to film adaptations for my money.

[quote]One thing I've always given her credit for is that she was terrific in scenes of hysteria.

R205 Her hysteria fit in Love with the Proper Stranger is so hammy it's cringeworthy.

R208, And she was Oscar nominated.

I almost drowned at Santa Monica beach when I was about 13. I've never gone back into the water since then. My sibling saved me.

Some people have never seen a hormonal teen girl in hysteria and fighting with her mother. Natalie Wood portrayed it eerily well in Splendour in the Grass. Honestly I wasn't born when that movie was made - but I lived it with my two sisters. I see her clumsy moments - but they work for her in that film.

There are still actresses like this - ones who might be terrible and wooden OR turn in a heartbreaking performance. Natalie Wood is not a great actress to revisit, but she's lovely and very touching at times. My father loved her. He was very sad when she died. Pretty girl.

One of my favorite Natalie Wood movies is "This Property Is Condemned." Based on a short play by Tennessee Williams, it had a great cast: Natalie Wood, Robert Redford, Kate Reid, Charles Bronson, Robert Blake, Dabney Coleman, Mary Badham. It was produced by Sydney Pollock, co-written by Francis Ford Coppola, produced by John Houseman and Ray Stark. There's a great scene where Wood's character Alva is out with her mother Hazel, her mother's lover J. J. and a well off old man who wants to marry Alva. A drunken Alva taunts J. J. into dumping her mother and going off with her; Wood is very effective as the seductive, rebellious Alva. Wood does some of her best acting in this movie, I think. Although the film was not well-received by critics I think it's very underrated.

Natalie hired Mart Crowley as an assistant but she did it so he could devote his time to writing and didn’t actually work for her. I think she helped finance Boys In The Band.

All three principle actors from Rebel Without A Cause died violently: James Dean in a car crash, Sal Mineo was murdered and Natalie drowned.

I think she was a top notch movie star who had moments of great acting and even towards the end she was pushing herself to do better. I think it comes across on screen she was a lovely person.

Didn’t she do a live tv version of Cat On A Hot Tin Roof? For those who have seen it how did she do?

I haven’t seen it in a long time but it always baffled me why she played a movie star in INside Daisy Clover with such terrible hair.

R215 Here's a link to Cat on a Hot Tin Roof (co-starring RJ as Brick, natch). I watched it a few years ago during a Tennessee Williams phase (Mary!!!!), but I don't remember much from it.

I've always been curious about the 1979 version of From Here to Eternity, but I've never sought it out.

R216, Natalie won a Golden Globe Award for "From Here to Eternity".

Her competition was . . .

Stefanie Powers - "Hart to Hart"

Sada Thompson - "Family"

Barbara Bel Geddes - "Dallas"

Kate Mulgrew - "Kate Columbo"

That whole bit where Natasha interviews 'Daddy Wagner' about the night Natalie died is one of the cringiest cringefests that ever festered. It's like an endless, slow motion, polished and well-rehearsed testimonial that's been sanitized for everyone's protection. You can tell Natasha really wants to believe.

R218, Several times she has to prompt him.

Yes,dalmane was the sleeping pill she took.

Yes, the dingy made a. Noise that stopped her from sleeping. Natasha was only 11 when she died.

That is a good way to describe RW's version. Well rehearsed.

They were such a beautiful couple.

All three principle actors from Rebel Without A Cause died violently: James Dean in a car crash, Sal Mineo was murdered and Natalie drowned.

He only played a minor roll, but you can add Nick Adams.

R222, Nick Adams died of a non-violent drug overdose.

R220, She had yet to take her nightly sleeping pill, so she had not been sleeping.

It was a nice documentary and made me remember all the movies Wood had been in.

Now we need one of Oliva Hussey

Many of the movie scenes the doc showed of Natalie Wood (particularly Gypsy), she overacts and seems to go into hysterics

For a movie that won so many Academy Awards, West Side Story was spectacularly miscast -- with the exception of Chita Rivera.

Oh Lord. I mean Rita Moreno

Roger Friedman must be a friend of the family Courtney gave one of her only public interviews to him in 2012 and he wrote this about the documentary and Lana.

"Now we need one of Oliva Hussey"

Unless it will include footage of her and Dino Martin, Jr. fucking, I'll take a hard pass.

Three arguing, combative drunken people on a boat at night. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. I don't think foul play was involved. It was just a totally screwed up, unfortunate situation that ended very badly.

After discovering Natalie was no longer on the yacht, Wagner waited two hours before alerting the shore patrol to give himself time to sober up.

And then he waited an additional three hours before agreeing to let the shore patrol contact the Coast Guard.

"After discovering Natalie was no longer on the yacht, Wagner waited two hours before alerting the shore patrol to give himself time to sober up.

And then he waited an additional three hours before agreeing to let the shore patrol contact the Coast Guard."

So what? That doesn't mean he killed her.

R233 = Jill St. John

What's with the nostrils on Jill St John? Were they always like that?

You wanna talk about nostrils?

Natalie was very good and less hysterical in The Cracker Factory, co-starring a pre-Cheers Shelley Long.

R236 Bitch, who invited you here?

R237, And hunky Perry King. It's posted on YouTube in sections.

DL fave Perry King is in it too? Okay, I must check it out on Youtube. Plus, I've never seen a Natalie performance from her middle-aged years.

(R15 Thank you for Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. I hadn't seen it before. - Olivier was remarkably good, and Natalie came alive toward the end. So I glad I watched it nonstop!

Jeez, CAT ON A HOT TIN ROOF was an abomination. Natalie and RJ were horrible and Olivier looked like he got his idea for Big Daddy from watching Kentucky Fried Chicken commercials! Only Maureen Stapleton came off well.

R242, Wagner was the weakest link, by far. You have to admit, Natalie looked gorgeous.

Wagner as weakest link comment is career defining. The most interesting thing about him was that he refused to be given a stage name by Henry Wilson.

*Willson

Yes, Natalie looked beautiful in it, and I think really aged well. She certainly looked better than she looked in the 50s.

Cat is an odd choice of material for them. A sexually frustrated woman married to an alcoholic possibly bisexual man. Or is it perfect casting?

I watched the documentary yesterday. It was a lovely tribute but it was also done to calm the rumours about her death, from both her daughters perspective of course. They obviously believe it was an accident. I don't know what to believe- sometimes I think it could have an argument followed by an accident that he had no idea of because he was drunk; and then you see articles, like the one in Vanity Fair. No, there wasn't a motive but some crimes of passion aren't premeditated, they can just happen in a fit of anger. I guess we'll never know.

That brief still shot in the documentary of Natalie and Streisand is pretty unflattering of Babs.

This one?

Natalie's eyeliner was always so good.

Definitely. She had beautiful eyes

R250, Yes.

Babs looks good to me in that picture.

I think My Barbra looks good but would look better without the Cleopatra eyeliner.

R248 It's his delay in reporting her missing that's so suspicious. Can you imagine if your loved one went missing off your boat? Would you sit around drinking?

[quote]Wagner allegedly waited at least an hour to radio for help or to initiate a search. Instead, a visibly shaken Wagner allegedly said, “Natalie is gone,” then broke open a bottle of scotch and began to drink.

Watched the doco.

Agree with the others that Courtney and Natasha have vocal fry. Courtney so much so that it seemed to interfere with her speaking. And Natasha calling Wagner “Daddy Wagner” and Natalie “Mommy” in her childlike voice provided pause for the whole theme of the documentary. She seems arrested in development as a pre-pubescent; the age she was at Natalie’s death.

Intuitively, Wagner’s responses (at times “prompted” by his stepdaughter), seemed the slightest bit forced. And his micro expressions did not correspond to his speech. Walken’s interview clip (when queried about the fateful night of Nat’s death) threw up massive red flags also.

Something doesn’t pass the smell test.

But this documentary has a definite slant coming from Natasha: to push the heroics of “Daddy Wagner”.

OP, have you seen The Mystery of Natalie Wood miniseries? Directed by Peter Boganovich he inserts interviews with people who knew her, including Lana, and pics and footage of the real Natalie to provide chronological context. They present the theory that she fell off the boat trying to move the banging dinghy and then we watch in horror as she struggles in the water. It also has the alleged Kirk Douglas rape but uses another name for Kirk, presumably for legal reasons. The actress who plays Natalie is ok - she more resembles Gloria Grahame though.

...Bogdanovich.

I've just finished watching this.

Natasha and Courtney's (the younger daughter) have such grating voices. Typical LA girls intonations. Natalie had such a melodious voice, where did theirs go wrong?

Robert Wagner retelling the boat incident was so rehearsed. It's so obvious to anyone with two brain cells that more happened on that boat than what they're saying. Their version is that Wagner got mad at Walken for saying Natalie ought to keep working, so Wagner broke a bottle to tell him to mind his own business, really?? Walken looked suspicious in his interview, too.

"Daddy Wagner". Lord. Like someone said here, Natasha sounds stuck at a developmental point.

Everyone bashing Lana Wood because she refuses to drink the Wagner kool-aid is the cherry on top. At least Courtney had a more reasonable reaction to her. Natasha is annoying.

Jill St. Whatever, don't get me started on her.

Sure, the Daddy Wagner/Daddy Gregson thing seems childish coming from a grown woman, but Narasha isn't the only adult to refer to her parents as mommy and daddy. I remember when Maria Shriver gave the eulogy at her mother Eunice Shriver's funeral, she kept saying mummy this and mummy that over and over again. I thought it was odd, but some people dont outgrow addressing their parents like that apparently.

R256- Very true, and it is a huge red flag. I wouldn't wait a damn second, for my family or a pet. I suppose the daughters have heard all of this and have chosen to believe their father.

I would believe if I was in their position. It's an impossible situation to be in. I don't envy them.

Natasha defends him because last will and testament.

It is Murder 101 on every episode of Columbia the guilty party always tries to convince the detective their ‘theory’.....

How many Dateline groupies are on this thread? We frown on those who use Watching Law and Order as an good example to be a detective. Anyway how many times do family member think another member is guilty? Hardly even. Even if the victim is the mother. The only one I can think of is the biological daughter of the murder victim in The Staircase case.

A young Joanne Whalley would've been the perfect choice to play Natalie. Of course that would've been the late 80s, too soon to make a biopic.

Didn't Natalie dislike Jill St. John? I remember reading that.

In the end, the doc felt more about Wagner than Natalie.

Between marriages to Natalie, Wagner was engaged to Tina Sinatra.

I thought Natalie, Jill St. John and Stephanie Powers were childhood friends.

R269, They all took ballet classes together as children.

Natalie was so gay friendly she had a "romance" with Raymond Burr in the 1950s.

I always find it weird when a widow/er marries so soon after a spouse's death. I mean don't you need time to grieve what was lost? In footage I've seen of Natalie's funeral, Jill St. John was walking with the family and already looked like the new wife. She and Wagner became a couple soon after.

R270 Did they sing that song from A Chorusline?

271 Give Burr a break! Natalie was just comforting him after the death of his fake family!

R272, while it's true that they became a couple soon after Natalie's death, they didn't get married (May 26, 1990) until 8.5 years after her passing.

I don't know much about Wagner's life but maybe he is the kind of man who can't live alone.

R275, Mainly because there was resistance to Jill from the daughters, primarily Natasha.

Jill St. John is a jewess homewrecker. She carries a couch on her back.

R278 I though the whole phrase waS something about being a mattress, like that Supergirl I’m always hearing about?

The phrase is what I want it to be. It refers to the casting couch of Mrs. Wagner's fabled "career."

R280 Ah, nicely tied together then. Catch me up, I’ve got time, why do we hate her? And she’s not that one with the nice Alley and Rock as a detective right?

It's all pretty incestuous. Both Natalie and Jill had affairs with Frank Sinatra. Wagner married both Natalie and Jill and Wagner was once engaged to Tina Sinatra.

I thought Jill seemed very nice in the documentary.

You'd be nice too if you finally got that couch off your back 30 years ago.

But dataloungers said that Tina is a lesbian R282.

It's interesting to watch.

I got kind of creeped out with Courtney who says she's drug/alcohol free now and seemed high as a kite. And also when she said she gets scared because every where she goes she thinks she hears the people around her saying: "She's Natalie Wood's daughter.....there goes Natalie Wood's daughter."

I don't imagine we'll ever know what really happened that night on the boat.....but somebody is living with a lot of guilt.... Somebody.

Lol R286 Courtney is a generic looking LA blonde. I could pass her on the street and have no idea who the hell she is. Not to mention, most people aren't thinking about Natalie Wood.

She is not even named on Natalie's wiki page.

I agree with the poster who noticed that Natasha always looked sad and miserable as a kid. Odd, considering Natalie worshiped her.

I think she might have had a drug (or maybe alcohol) problem like Courtney. She was pretty in the 90s when she was briefly an up-and-coming "it girl", but really lost her looks fast. She looked better in the doc though.

She also bearded for Tab Hunter in the 1950's

R290 Jesus Christ he was pretty. And stayed that way until the end.

There was a saying in Hollywood: if Elizabeth won't, Natalie Wood. Truth is Natalie's career was not going that well from the mid-70s on. She was mostly starring in TV movies and miniseries. Posthumous "Brainstorm" wasn't well received.

Was she a hard wood or a soft wood?

Great beauty is such a one off. Of course the kids may technically share features, but they never have the same charisma or mystery.

Natalie's career always had ups and downs. She followed up "Rebel" with a couple duds and was already considered a has-been by the time "Splendour" came around. That of course reignited everything and the early 60s were her peak.Then it declined again with the likes of "Penelope" and she started acting only sporadically. She seemed to be going back to theatrical films at the time of her death and was going to do theater as well. She still remained a significant media presence and people still loved her. Who knows what would've happened with her career going forward.

Fun Facts: 1) Courtney Wagner and 90s It Boy Stephen Dorff used to be an item back in the day; and 2) For seven years, Natasha dated Josh Evans, son of DL fave Ali McGraw.

Natalie would have had a nice second act. Maybe she would have settled into a successful drama series as the matriarch of a family or evolved into a supporting character actor. She would have found a way to stay vital and relevant especially since she was so beloved by her peers and her fans.

R296 imagine if Natasha and Josh had spawned a daughter and those Natalie/Ali dark beauty genes had coalesced. They could have given her the hip name NatAli in tribute to both grandmothers.

Then again the child could have come out looking like a Bob Evans/Daddy Gregson combo. Not the worst but still.

LOL R298

R294, None of Grace Kelly's daughters or granddaughters come even close to her beauty.

I read alot of the case but this is the first I heard about Wagner saying she was gone before the authorities were called and that would be the Columbo 'gotcha' moment.

R301, Natalie was missing from the yacht for roughly two hours before anyone was notified.

It's considered bad luck to change the name of a boat. Splendour was named Challenger before Wagner bought it.

That video where young Natalie crossed a bridge which collapsed was done wrong. The prop man was supposed to pull the lever after she had crossed. Instead, he pulled when she was halfway across. Natalie said she didn't remember anything after doing that shot.

Natalie Wood was very good in the From Here to Eternity mini series.

The only movie that I liked Natalie in was MARJORIE MORNINGSTAR. With Gene Kelly as her too old boyfriend. I lol’ed when he said that his character was only 33. Gene was a dozen years older than that at the time of the film.

Other than that, I don’t enjoy her acting style, especially when she’s dramatic.

In the Finstad biography there's a discussion of how Natalie was in awe of the Actor's Studio and felt inferior to the Method actors because she was a "child star." But others saw her as an "instinctual" actress and able to match James Dean scene for scene in Rebel. Debbie Reynolds is quoted...

[quote]Reynolds, who might have played Judy, noticed "a lot of depth and soul" when she saw Natalie's performance. "She was not just a little cute thing... she had a lot of courage, and she fully fulfilled the role and brought to it color and unexpected moments, which is what makes a star."

I don't think Natalie was a great, amazing actress, but she had so much charisma. You can tell she tried to do a good job with the material she received. I just can't help but like her on screen.

R296 Huh, Courtney even shared the cover of Interview magazine with Stephen Dorff. Never knew that. I'm curious about Courtney, is there more to her story besides drugs? Any gossip? She just seemed so troubled. Of course losing a parent so young is such a devastating blow to a child, but to still be sooooo devastated and immobilized by the death of your mother at 46. It's just... a pity.

R172 remarry so soon??!? I can’t imagine the kind of heaux who would do that!

R294 I generally agree, but in combo with Wagner, who was such a pretty boy and should have translated gorgeously to a daughter, it’s very very surprising. Courtney really lost the lottery there.

I think Country is pretty but also kinda odd looking. She is lucky to score some of that Dorff cock. Did they have any children?

In retrospect, Wagner looked so young during Hart to Hart. As a kid watching the show, I thought he was ancient

[quote]I don't think Natalie was a great, amazing actress, but she had so much charisma. You can tell she tried to do a good job with the material she received. I just can't help but like her on screen.

The above quote from r307 describes exactly how I feel about her.

[quote]Wagner looked so young during Hart to Hart.

Speaking of which, Stephanie Powers has still got it, at 77. She survived lung cancer and is doing theater in London.

Courtney had high end jewelry design company about a decade or so ago with Anita ko who is a popular jewelry designer before they split off.

Here’s an interview she did with showbiz411 in 2012, I feel bad that she had to hear the Joan rivers comment about her mom.

[quote]Natalie was missing from the yacht for roughly two hours before anyone was notified.

What is significant to me: This "yacht" is not some David Geffen yacht. It was actually pretty small. I've been on much bigger private boats.

How could there only be three of you and you not notice you spouse was missing for two hours? Unless you was suckin' on the cock?

[quote]Natalie was missing from the yacht for roughly two hours before anyone was notified.

What is significant to me: This "yacht" is not some David Geffen yacht. It was actually pretty small. I've been on much bigger private boats.

How could there only be three of you and you not notice you spouse was missing for two hours? Unless you was suckin' on the cock?

No matter what happened on that boat she died on Wagner's watch and he'll always be seen as having failed his wife.

R316, It was only a 60' yacht.

R317 There is also the black out drunk option.

Until Wagner actually takes personal responsibility for the part he played in Natalie's death instead of trying to appear totally blameless and innocent, he continues to invite suspicion as the angry husband who got away with murder.

[quote] Until Wagner actually takes personal responsibility for the part he played in Natalie's death instead of trying to appear totally blameless and innocent, he continues to invite suspicion as the angry husband who got away with murder.

THIS.

And no amount of whitewashing from (perpetually pre-pubescent) Natasha’s doco can alter this.

Charlotte did r300, but she’s hitting the Grimaldi wall of fugly. Smoking, drinking and clubbing. And her posture is atrocious. Like a delinquent.

And sluttiness.

R322, Robert Wagner turned 90 this year. I'm sure he considers his comments on the documentary to be his last on Natalie's death.

Natasha has made it clear in interviews that she wanted to remove all suspicion from her stepfather before he died, but I don't feel she succeeded.

[quote]Natasha has made it clear in interviews that she wanted to remove all suspicion from her stepfather before he died, but I don't feel she succeeded.

Only someone with no skin in the game can do that.

Fatty Arbuckle went to his grave with the entire country believing he was guilty of rape and murder.

If Natasha wanted to make her HBO documentary more convincing she should have minimized her appearances and had someone else interview Daddy Wagner. Instead, she feeds him pablum with that baby-like voice and comes off brainwashed and emotionally stunted.

We're just one big happy family with an elephant in the room...

They're all touching each other to show their closeness. Natasha looks ready to do the Anjelica Huston story.

Courtney looks like a blonde version of her mom. I don't understand how people think she's funny-looking.

I don’t care for the whole daddy Wagner thing. In my family the step kids call the stepparents by their first names. So he would be Robert or Robby, if he goes by Robby in his personal life. No need to get all fuzzy wuzzy with these dumb nicknames, unless you’re trying too hard.

Wagner raised her R330, but she had a good relationship with her bio dad Gregson so I guess it was a compromise of sorts.

The Daddy Wagner and Daddy Gregson nicknames were Natalie's idea.

R327, Jill looks embalmed in that photo.

"How could there only be three of you and you not notice you spouse was missing for two hours? Unless you was suckin' on the cock?"

Or drunk and engaged in a prolonged argument with another drunk.

I still find it hard to believe that Natalie wasn't getting any better offers than PEEPER and METEOR.

Actresses in their 40s had it harder than they do today (and it still ain't easy), just ask me about it.

She hadn’t done a movie in 6 years r335 when she did pepper so her stock wasn’t exactly high. By 1975 she was considered a part of old Hollywood even though she was close in age to a actresses who had hot careers at the time (Fonda, dunaway and burstyn)

"I dont think Jill st John ever took an acting job once they got together."

R69 If you can call what Jill did "acting".

She refused to follow RJ into TV roles, which would have provided more options. She probably considered it beneath her dignity.

Tiffany Case was a serviceable Bond girl.

R339 - you mean she refused to do a regular television series like Hart to Hart.

Despite what you may thinking of her acting ability Wood was a bigger movie star than Wagner so that would have been emasculating for a certain type of man.

Lana is a spoiled and selfish twat of a sister. Natalie was more than generous and this lazy POS was less than appreciative. Lana you deserve the scorn you get from people. Stop with the conspiracy crap. The money you earn disrespects your sister.

r337 Well, Fonda was going through the Hanoi Jane backlash during that time, so 1975 would've been a good time for Natalie to strike. That makes sense though, what you say about her being considered Old Hollywood.

r339 I thought they were actually looking for a show to do together, which is how they ended up owning a piece of Charlie's Angels?

The miniseries has them having an agreement that only one would work at a time though there were obvious exceptions like Cat on the Roof. That is supposedly why Wagner was so steamed at Natalie having a comeback because that meant he would have had to stop working.

It all makes sense, now. RJ had to eliminate Natalie so he could keep doing Hart to Hart.

You can just hear the voice in RJ's head when he broke open that bottle of Scotch after Natalie went missing. "It's MY TURN, goddammit."

R344, They both starred in an ABC movie for television, "The Affair", for Aaron Spelling. The partial ownership of "Charlie's Angels" was included in his payment to them.

"The Affair" is on Amazon Prime, btw.

Iive always found that aspect of Natalie's career really strange R337. She was actually younger than Fonda, Louise Fletcher and Ellen Burstyn, but she seemed older than them because she started working during the "Golden Age" of films. I still have to remind myself that age-wise, Natalie is from the same generation as those ladies even though they seem more "modern" than her. Speaking of Jane Fonda, I would have liked it if she participated in this doc. She was acquainted with Natalie and it would have been nice to hear her insights.

R318 That's the deeply sad truth.

DL fave Mia Farrow was very nice. Of course, she is an RJ fan also. Maybe Fonda not so much.

Mia was a good choice for commentary. Same vintage, child of Hollywood etc.

Jill St. John was the second original good time that was had by all, that's why she was in movies. She doesn't have one scintilla of acting talent but she had a body for sin. There's The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone and The Oscar to prove how truly terrible she was. She may well be the worst Bond girl in 007 history, although that's not entirely her fault but the screenwriters.

Really R353? Even worse than Lana Wood?

She played a Hollywood bimbo in Come Blow Your Horn (1963).

How ironic that Jessica Savitch is seen on the documentary reporting Natalie's death, when Jessica died just two years later, also tragically.

I read a review of the show but haven't seen it. The reviewer was bothered how Wagner was smiling and chuckling when recalling the night of the Natalie's death.

Wagner and Jill had starred together in the movie "Banning" in 1967 and Jill also guest starred on the "Hart to Hart" pilot in 1979.

Brainstorm was intended to be something good with a top notch cast. Natalie’s performance got good reviews. The Last Married Couple reteamed George Segal with his Touch of Class Director.

I remember reading a quote from tony Curtis that read “Jill St. John.....WHAT A PIECE OF SHIT!” and wondered why he would make such an extreme comment about someone so innocuous and non descript.

Jill was on the first campy Batman episode and her character died.

Imagine, Jill and RJ have been together for almost FORTY YEARS now.

Also? I had no idea she was briefly married to Jack Jones.

R360 I read that comment too in an Esquire piece. I would assume that Tony made the comment after Jill moved on Wagner after Natalie died since Tony was a friend of hers.

R362, And Lance Reventlow, Barbara Hutton's only child.

I knew about Lance, but not Jack Jones. It's a small "wow" for me.

Didn't Don Henley write "Dirty Laundry" about Natalie's death?

R352, Not really. Natalie was seven years older than Mia.

Partially r366 it was also about the coverage of John belishis death as well as the coverage of his drug bust and the underage hooker that od’ed at his house.

It was probably all the "Jack and Jill' jokes that did their marriage in. But my my, Jack was cute.

R365, Jack Jones was HAF when he was younger.

Fun Fact: Jack's godmother was Joan Crawford.

R370 Whaaaat? Ok, I'm off - research time!

I had to laugh when Elliott Gould made sure to point out that he was wearing TWO pairs of underwear in Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice.

Good lord, I'm down a Jack Jones rabbit hole now. For some reason I always thought he was English. He's still alive, which I didn't know. He's been married six times.

I seem to recall he was one of Judy Garland's favorite singers, correct?

R373, Judy had him on her CBS variety show twice.

Vintage Jack Jones.

I love the photo at R369. Look at him - he's ready to clip her at a moments notice... the minute she says something stupid (and she always says something stupid.)

Looks like Jill St. John never had any kids of her own.

Jack Jones sounds like the prototype basis for 'Tony' in "Valley of the Dolls."

Jill St. John had over 40 abortions. It's hard to conceive later when your lover murders his wife and you're already 45 years old. She sought out advice about AI from Celine Dion - it's a secret well kept.

I still remember Natalie's last words.....

"SPLASH"

Seems like whoever met Natalie loved her.

One thing that comes across loud and clear from both the miniseries and the HBO doco is her stage mother from hell. The way she pimped and abused Natalie was its very own horror show.

RJ did take some responsibility in his memoir Pieces of My Heart. He wrote "Did I blame myself? If I had been there I could have done something. But I wasn't there. I didn't see her. The door was closed. I thought she was belowdecks. I didn't hear anything. But ultimately a man is responsible for his loved one and she was my loved one."

[quote]But ultimately a man is responsible for his loved one and she was my loved one.

His "loved one?" How about his WIFE. He took marriage vows. They had kids together. Not to mention stalling for hours before notifying the authorities once he realized she was missing. Nope, not buyin' it.

[quote]Did I blame myself? If I had been there I could have done something. But I wasn't there.

What an odd thing to write. Wagner makes it sound as if he stayed home. YOU WERE THERE!

I'm in the mood to watch a Natalie Wood film, but I think I've seen all of her "good" movies. These are my choices: Sex and the Single Girl or Penelope. Which one is "better"?

I just rewatched Love with the Proper Stranger (1963). Such a good film co-starring Steve McQueen, and one of her best in terms of acting and tackling a taboo subject. She was courageous to do it, IMO, and except for one OTT hysterical scene her acting is naturalistic and believable.

"Seems like whoever met Natalie loved her.

Not Marni Nixon.

[quote]Seems like whoever met Natalie loved her.

From what I read, she was a pain in the ass on West Side Story.

The production values on this were very low rent for HBO, more Biography TV or People.com. Willie Mae seems like the hero of all this and you know she must have known the truth. Three stepsisters all with their own bizarre speech inflections, what was that about? Why didn’t Nastsha return to be with her real father after her mothers’s death. It sounds like Natalie s parents were universally despised by everyone, and even the grandchildren enjoyed bashing them. Is the whole thing a giant advertisement for analysis and therapy? Ultimately having the daughter be the main producer and interviewer compromises the objectivity of the project and this is just hagiography of Natalie.

Natasha stayed with the Wagners so that she could grow up with her sister Courtney - Natalie's other daughter. Daddy Gregson (Natasha's bio dad) and Daddy Wagner agreed to this arrangement believing it best for Natasha. Natalie's mom was a psycho stage mother but her Dad seemed decent, just very quiet. I agree, this doc is very subjective with Natasha at the helm, but the family involvement makes it more intimate than it would have been otherwise.

The documentary comes across as having been produced by the family with the sole purpose of erasing bad gossip about RJ having anything to do with NW's death. Interesting that this is happening in the wake of Natalie's estate auction helmed by Natasha herself at Bonham's and heavily publicized last year on TCM.

It seems like Natasha's full-time job these days is curator of her mother's legacy. She doesn't appear to act much anymore.

R393 It probably pays better than her acting career ever did.

[quote]There is also the black out drunk option.

This. They were all drunk and in a fugue state or blackout where everything is happening in a dream. All the witnesses at the restaurant mentioned how blasted they all where. Plus they were taking quaaludes. They didn't know what the hell they were doing.

Wagner does mention on the documentary that Natalie went ashore on Friday evening to spend the night in a hotel because the sea was choppy, but he totally omits that Dennis the yacht captain accompanied her and stayed with her there until Saturday morning.

Also, watching the documentary led me to news reportage from that weekend. Wagner's lawyer addressed the media a day after the incident and he clearly stated that upon finding Natalie missing, Wagner immediately got into his boat and went searching for her.

All lies. What boat? There was no boat. The lawyer could not have meant the dinghy, it was missing and not found until daylight. Wagner absolutely did not go looking for Natalie or even allow the authorities to be informed she was missing until two hours had passed.

The miniseries presents the notion that Natalie went ashore the previous night after an argument with Wagner, not because of choppy seas, leaving Walken on the boat because he was seasick. Dennis Davern went with her and tried to get her a plane out of Catalina but none was available the next day so that is why she went back to the boat to await another. Big mistake.

It's so telling that the captain -- not Wagner -- went ashore with Natalie and spent the night with her at the hotel. Leaving Walken and Wagner alone on the boat.

And Wagner wants everyone to think it was Walken, not Wood, he was at odds with.

That just doesn't add up.

R398, Even more telling is the fact that Wagner refused to identify Natalie's body when asked to do so by the authorities. He sent Dennis Davern to identify her body.

Wagner never saw Natalie after she was recovered. Only her two young daughters viewed her in her casket, not her husband.

Re the previous night's issue. Wagner in "Pieces of My Heart" writes that because of the choppy seas he had suggested moving the boat closer to the shore to ride out the swells. But Natalie gave him an argument about it though he admits that she was worried about the water. Huh? She decided to spend the night ashore instead and Wagner and Walken were on the boat. Wagner describes Walken as an interesting pleasant man.

[quote]Wagner describes Walken as an interesting, pleasant man with an enormously long cock that went in so deep it felt as if it was jabbing the underside of Wagner's heart with each thrust. "With Natalie, finally, ashore, I could shriek like an epileptic concubine every time Chris drove it in."

"Jill St. John had over 40 abortions."

What credible source gave you that information? Forty abortions...that sounds like something Darwin Porter or Scotty Bowers would dream up.

Walken clammed up years ago and and Wagner refuses to speak about that night. You just know it's because they faked their stories the first time and they'd have a hard time trying to remember and match those details, again.

[quote]Over time, however, Wagner and Davern's accounts have shifted, a red flag to the investigators. Investigators say Wagner has refused to speak with them since the case was reopened. Corina tells Moriarty he doesn't believe Wagner has told the whole story. "I haven't seen him tell the details that match ... all the other witnesses in this case," Corina says of Wagner. "I think he's constantly ... he's changed the -- his story a little bit. ...and his version of events just don't add up."

[quote]Investigators today note the autopsy report indicates there were a number of bruises that appeared to be fresh on Wood's body. "She looked like the victim of an assault," says Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department Detective Ralph Hernandez.

[quote]"Do you believe Robert Wagner knows a lot more about what happened to his wife than he's ever said?" Moriarty asks.

[quote]"Well, I think he does because he's the last one to see her," Corina replies.

[quote]"We have not been able to prove this was a homicide. And we haven't been able to prove that this was an accident, either," says Hernandez. "The ultimate problem is we don't know how she ended up in the water."

Wagner, Walken and Davern had two hours to get their stories straight before the shore patrol was initially contacted about Natalie.

Christopher Walken has been married to the same woman since 1969, no children.

Now that they're all dead, the truth died with them. Why is Natalie Cole's daughter trying to make a buck off her death now?

[quote]"Jill St. John had over 40 abortions."

As any john who used her services can attest: Jill always rounds up.

The detail about RJ getting so mad at Walken that he smashes a bottle on a table is presumably meant to show how macho he is, like in a Western but it reminds me more of Blanche smashing the bottle to defend herself against Stanley. I'll twist the broken end in your face!

Or Walken could have gone all Martha and said ""I hope that was an empty bottle, RJ. You can't afford to waste good liquor. Not on your salary. Not on a television actor's salary!"

R409 Oh, definitely George and Martha.

R406, Natalie Cole?!? This was an unforeseen twist!!!

R410 Oh my! Are we supposed to be happy that Natalie and RJ were never able to star in the Lifetime Channel production of Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf?

If not for her mysterious and tragic death, Natalie Wood be about as famous today as Kim Novak

She's bigger than Kim. Kim had to fuck Harry Cohn to get work. Natalie worked in iconic roles since she was five. She was in the Liz Taylor class -- beautiful but not that great an actress. A movie star.

If only Natalie had taken off her down jacket. It became waterlogged and became like an anchor. It was what pulled her down. The dingy had scratch marks where she was desperately trying to pull herself up into the dingy. I think that she died just a few hours before her body was found.

The rumor is that RJ called Frank Sinatra crying and in a panic, telling him that it was an accident and that he loved her. Sinatra became the fixer. His people managed the police and the press.

I've always had empathy for Lana. But, the story about her carting off all of Natalie's clothes is heartbreaking with Natasha crying in Natalie's lingerie closet. Natalie's daughters should have been given first choice.

The boat captain's lastest version is what makes the most sense. See article below. He said that the dingy wasn't tied in a way that it would have been bumping up against the boat, so the story that Natalie must have been bothered by the dingy bumping the boat didn't make sense.

I still don't understand why the people on the 2 boats anchored near the Splendour didn't do something, They heard a woman crying for help. Even though they heard male voices saying, "Will get you," why didn't shine a light or get in their dingy to rescue a drowning woman? The boats were not far from each other. I think it was something like 150 feet.

Natalie had her dad's eyes with the rest of her features looking more like her mother.

Natasha would look a lot better if she had thicker eyebrows.

Courtney looks like RJ.

Dennis Davern's account...

Podcast series...

Photos of the interior of the Spendour...

No wonder she killed herself.

R413 Her death was tragic, but at least it saved her from receiving grotesque plastic surgery.

I think Natalie would have kept herself slim and glamorous in older age, and done fun, campy roles, like Joan Collins.

R421, Natalie would definitely have gone the prime time soap route if she had lived, a la contemporaries Joan Collins, Ali MacGraw, Diahann Carroll, Kim Novak, etc.

She passed on both "The Towering Inferno" and "The Mirror Crack'd", the Faye Dunaway and Elizabeth Taylor roles.

R415, Actually, the red down jacket is what kept her body afloat when it was spotted from the helicopter the next morning. The rescuer said that her body was in a standing position, buoyed by the down jacket.

Natalie couldn't swim, which seems irresponsible for a mother with young children when the family spent so many weekends on the boat.

One thing I've never seen reported was the condition of her fingernails. If she had tried repeatedly to board the dinghy, as the scratches would attest, the perfect French manicure she was always known to maintain would have been shredded.

R423 not to mention she got seasick. I get that big time it’s no fun. I certainly would spend my weekends on a boat.

Yes the autopsy analysis does not show any cuts to the hands.

*wouldn’t I mean

423 Noguchi, the medical examiner , is the one who said in his autobiography that she should have unzipped the coat. I don't believe that a waterlogged coat would keep you afloat. She was exhausted by trying to crawl into the dingy. Nail clippings were not taken at the autopsy.

This 2013 Vanity Fair article talks about what Noguchi said about scratches on the side of the dingy and the soggy coat.

Noguchi now says he was wrong about her death being an accident & clearing Wagner. Heagrees with the new review and correction of his autopsy to re-classify Natalie's death as a homicide.

Natalie's nails in the pictures at R415 and R429 aren't a French manicure. They merely look like full pink nail polish.

Don’t forget, RJ starred in the 1953 movie The Titanic in essential the Leo role of attractive young American guy. Did he learn things he was able to use about boating and being on the water in that film that came in play that night? Would Natalie have survived if she had been the one to star in this film instead having background knowledge of being overboard and having needed to learn to swim for the role? If RJ and Natalie were on a piece of flotsam only large enough one person, would RJ have been the only one to survive and Natalie’s clawed finger nail markings be the only thing left of her on it?

What the fuck is vocal fry? Just watched the film and never noticed anything unusual about the girl's voices, some of you are twisted.

[quote] Natalie was known to be gay-friendly, being a pal of Mart Crowley.

What a strange phrase. Mart Crowley wasn't just a pal, he was considered family. Natalie encouraged him to write "BITB". Crowley and Wagner stayed close until Mart's recent death. Those home movies of her at the beach were at Roddy McDowell's Malibu house. She wasn't "gay-friendly", she just accepted people as is.

R432 Vocal fry you ask? Here’s a video that explains all.

Looking pretty bad for Wagner. The documentary didn’t do a good job.

R430, From Natasha's new book, released in conjunction with the documentary . . .

"Her hands were pale and slender, with long, delicate fingers that always glinted with a fresh French-tip manicure. Mommie not only spoke with her hands, fluttering them like butterflies to express her meaning and mood, but she was forever touching me with a loving caress. If we were in the same room, her smooth hands would be stroking my forehead, playing with my hair, brushing gently against my face."

R427, Have you ever tried to wash a down jacket or down coat in a washing machine? The coat keeps rising to the surface, causing one to keep pushing it down into the water.

R436 Those are just air pockets. I wonder if they could keep the weight of the sodden coat AND a human above water.

R436 Those are just air pockets. I wonder if they could keep the weight of the sodden coat AND a human above water.

I’ll never understand why people would want to spend more than a few hours on a boat.

R437, It has been confirmed by her rescuers that the red down jacket was what kept her body afloat.

"I have NO DOUBT Natalie realized the jacket was her excellent life preserver. Again, can't begin to describe how buoyant a down jacket is when wearing it in water. I've been in water wearing life jackets, and I've been in the water wearing a down jacket...I'd prefer the down jacket ANY day in an emergency. Natalie, not being a confident swimmer, would never have chanced removing the jacket, especially in a deep, dark ocean. I'm sure it did hinder her ability to direct the direction she wanted to move toward, because the ocean currents were strong, and far too swift to fight.

Natalie was carried away by ocean currents quickly. The further she was distanced from the Splendour, no doubt the more frightened and terrified she became. She was on her own, with nothing more than a down jacket that kept her floating and the hope that someone would immediately try to rescue her.

To remove her jacket would have been instant death for Natalie and she knew it. She did the smart thing: she kept the jacket on. It helped her to live for hours, and, sadly, in the end, it helped her to be discovered...most likely just MINUTES too late according to a trained, certified Coast Guard Captain."

"Noguchi now says he was wrong about her death being an accident & clearing Wagner. Heagrees with the new review and correction of his autopsy to re-classify Natalie's death as a homicide."

No. Some cop "sensationally confided" that “Dr. Noguchi admitted to us that he based his case on theory and not facts and evidence.” Noguchi never made a statement to that effect. So many people (this stupid cop, Dennis Davern, Lana Wood) have attempted to profit and gain some kind of weird fame from poor Natalie Wood's death. But the truth of the matter is that no hard evidence ever existed to prove she died due to foul play. There's just been a lot of conflicting stories and accusations from people who want stir up trouble, make themselves famous and get paid for their tales.

R441, Think what you want about Lana, but if my sibling died under mysterious causes, I hope that I would have the perseverance to learn the truth.

We all had family members with money problems. I dont think Lana is so bad. I can see talking badly about an aunt or grandmother with each other but not cameras.

"[R441], Think what you want about Lana, but if my sibling died under mysterious causes, I hope that I would have the perseverance to learn the truth."

She seems to be obsessed with a death that happened 40 years ago that will never be completed resolved, no matter who says what. She should let go, though, for her own sake. There's great peace in letting go.

It's a cold case so who better to keep the case moving forward than Lana? I admire her for it.

There's little mention now that everyone on board was taking Quaaludes as well as drinking heavily. Wagner didn't mention it in the documentary, for instance I don't fault them for it, as Quaaludes were a popular recreational drug at the time. Hollywood was awash in them. They must have been shit-faced on that boat so I doubt any of them have a clear recollection of the events of that night.

[quote]think what you want about Lana, but if my sibling died under mysterious causes, I hope that I would have the perseverance to learn the truth.

Her cash cow died young.

How are Lana's actions any different than those of Nicole Brown Simpson's sister, Ron Goldman's sister or Natalee Holloway's mother?

They all feel their sibling's or daughter's life was cut short needlessly and want the truth to be told.

It's not a cold case. She drowned. No one remembers her. Natalie Wood was pretty, but a bad actress. She was in a couple of popular movies that haven't aged well. Nothing classic about her at all. A shame her husband didn't care a bit better for her, but maybe their marriage was in pretty bad shape? Worse things happen every day in the water. He certainly didn't leave her to die. A tragedy....40 years ago.

R447 there was no mystery as to whether OJ murdered Nicole & Ron. This case has been shrouded in mystery. Even if Wagner is somehow culpable it’s not remotely comparable.

R447 Natalee's mother would I'm sure like something to bury. The Brown/Goldman families saw the killer acquitted.

I understand Lana's grief (the driver who killed my brother walked away scot free) but her motivation is at least 50% financial.

Interesting how quickly it cut away from the list of drugs in her system. She was on a lot!

cold case [cold case] NOUN an unsolved criminal investigation which remains open pending the discovery of new evidence.

R451 I know I DVR’d it...I should go back and freeze and screenshot it...that was by far the most interesting part to me (whatever that says about me lol)

^^^ Judy Pills

[quote] Even more telling is the fact that Wagner refused to identify Natalie's body when asked to do so by the authorities. He sent Dennis Davern to identify her body. Wagner never saw Natalie after she was recovered. Only her two young daughters viewed her in her casket, not her husband.

Anger or guilt. In an accidental/manslaughter case like Natalie's, the immediate suspect can feel a great deal of anger. Something along "You created the problem that resulted in your death. We had a drunken fight. You ended up drowning. Now, everyone thinks I am a murderer."

I wonder if Natalie was supposed leave for LA after she spent the night ashore, but her coming back to the boat set a sequence of drunken events in motion that resulted in her death. That may explain his strange lack of guilt about her death. He may sincerely feel it's not really his fault. It can also explain Walken's complicity.

Natalie, that night, may have been "the inconvenient woman."

Thank you for the lovely weekend.

I've heard Chris Walken is bi. And the two of them staying out on the boat together. It's such a weird story. I think around this time Natalie had tried to embrace the whole "Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice" thing and allow herself to be married to a bisexual husband. Natalie was matching Davern drink for drink in that restaurant before they headed off to the motel together when Walken and Wagner were out on the boat. It is not inconceivable that this whole tragic scenario played out in an alcoholic blackout.

Also peculiar that Davern slept in Natalie's motel room when they had secured two rooms.

R458, Natalie had a lifelong aversion to sleeping alone. Dennis slept on the floor of her hotel room that night.

Pills, booze and sex, baby.

Inspired by the documentary, I watched the, unfortunately titled, movie Driftwood starring 9-year-old Natalie. The plot sounds pretty insane: Natalie is an orphan raised by her great-grandfather, after he dies she saves a dog who escaped from a plane crash, ends up being "adopted" by a doctor, the dog ends up going to court and being put on trial, and Natalie helps the doctor fight an epidemic in the town! It's a bit much, but it was a lot more entertaining than I was expecting! She even SINGS in the movie!!!

There are better versions online if you know where to look.

She was a really great child actress.

Courtney was into coke and heroin and was arrested years ago but I believe the charges were dropped.

Well this thread has certainly had a life all it’s own.

Old Natalie interview. Nice to hear 1960s women speak in low voices with that slightly fancy accent. Sure beats today’s high-pitch helium upspeak or vocal fry.

"To remove her jacket would have been instant death for Natalie and she knew it. She did the smart thing: she kept the jacket on. It helped her to live for hours, and, sadly, in the end, it helped her to be discovered...most likely just MINUTES too late according to a trained, certified Coast Guard Captain."

The reports suggest that her screaming for help lasted 30 minutes so after that it figures she was dead.

TCM has been showing her movies recently. They still might be on their app. Inside Daisy Clover is the one I want to see.

Natalie was nominated for Rebel Without A Cause , Love With The Proper Stranger and Splendor In The Grass right?

They showed a clip of her winning a GG for From Here To Eternity I don’t know if she was so grateful or maybe desperate to win something.

R467, Natalie was competing against four series actresses, Stefanie Powers, Sada Thompson, Barbara Bel Geddes and Kate Mulgrew.

Another thing that gets me the Wagners must had alot of money. Couldn't they afford a bigger yacht. And does a small one need a Captain?

R461, There's a 1980 interview Natalie did with Rex Reed on YouTube where she said that daughter Courtney was then watching a VHS copy of "Driftwood" over and over, while daughter Natasha was obsessed with "Gypsy" and could imitate the stripping numbers.

Unfortunately, DL is currently not allowing me to post links.

R469, Dennis Davern had been the yacht's captain for the previous owner, so Wagner kept him on when he purchased it.

I'm assuming Wagner kept him on to do the driving and the maintenance, plus he became a family friend.

R464, Linky stinky.

[quote]Natalie had a lifelong aversion to sleeping alone.

I use that excuse, too.

[quote]Dennis slept on the floor of her hotel room that night.

Said all the many witnesses. [rolling eyes]

The documentary and the HBO mini series both sanitize out anything to do with RJs gayness. That's another YUGE elephant in the room.

RJ was in Henry Willson's stable of hot young "pretty boy" actors included Guy Madison,Troy Donahue, Tab Hunter, Chad Everett, Rory Calhoun, Doug McClure and of course, Rock Hudson.

R475, Henry Willson was also Natalie's agent at one point.

R475 Damn, he’s beautiful is that RJ in front, Rock?

R475 It's so odd to see a photo from then when Wagner isn't the good looking one.

R477 = Helen Keller

R477 = Helen Keller

[quote]The documentary and the HBO mini series both sanitize out anything to do with RJs gayness.

R477, That is Wagner behind Jeffrey Hunter.

I can’t place the guy in front. As hamsome as Jeff Hunter but not him.

Guy Madison?

Yes it is Jeffrey Hunter.

Wonder if the world would have been a better place if Jeff Hunter was healthy and still played Captain Kirk.

Jeffrey Hunter was so handsome. He is in this movie called “No Down Payment” that I watched for free on utube. It was a dark cynical melodrama about life in the post war LA suburbs. He played the part of an earnest engineer with a grasping wife. May have been Barbara Rush? It had great cars, clothes, and sets. He was so gorgeous , it was weird to see Tony Randall flirting with his wife.

r457 Yeah, it's interesting that Natalie immediately divorced Richard Gregson after he cheated. Maybe she remarried Wagner because if he fucked around, at least it wouldn't be with other women and she thought she could handle that.

[quote]Yeah, it's interesting that Natalie immediately divorced Richard Gregson after he cheated.

Wasn't it with her assistant? A double betrayal.

Jeff Hunter starred in a classic that everyone forgets Natalie was in The Searchers . Hunter was married to Rush btw.

Jeffrey Hunter's wife when he died was Emily McLaughlin, who played Nurse Jessie Brewer on "General Hospital".

Who forget Nurse Jesse. She was the star of that show for a long time.

[quote]Yeah, it's interesting that Natalie immediately divorced Richard Gregson after he cheated. Maybe she remarried Wagner because if he fucked around, at least it wouldn't be with other women and she thought she could handle that.

I think their marriage was a comfortable arrangement, mutually beneficial on emotional, economic and celebrity levels. Both knew they were better off remarrying than looking for another spouse at the same level (even Liz Taylor married her share of duds.) They could enjoy a family life, care for each other emotionally, scan as a romantic power couple, and increase in their earnings (joint appearances, 50% of Charlie's Angels). They understood the other would stray - Natalie seemed to like hookups; RJ had his own stuff.

Unfortunately, drinking and pills on a boat in choppy weather - well that arrangement came apart without sober, adult supervision.

So Natalie was a drunk whore? Is this why the eldergays think she could act?

R448 Why do you keep trying to convince the rest of us that Natalie Wood was a bad actress? She wasn't. She was great in Splendor in the Grass, This Property is Condemned, and many others. She is remembered and not forgotten.

You can't convince drunk old gay men of nothing, but I can at least speak the truth R495.

I've never seen "The Great Race" so I looked it up and it's 3 hours long?? ...The fuck?!

"I've never seen "The Great Race" so I looked it up and it's 3 hours long?? ...The fuck?!"

It's an involved comedy along the lines of "It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World." Yes, it's long, but I thought it was very funny.

R498 Well that would explain why she tried to commit suicide halfway through making the movie, she just wanted the damn filming to end!

Robert Wagner seemed like he was trying to cry but couldn't produce any tears. He kind of had that Scott Peterson/Chris Watts vibe. He has said that he once waited for Warren Beatty with a gun. So who knows what he is capable of when jealous or mad.

She did seem like she would be a fun friend to have. She accepted in person her worst actress award from the Harvard lampoon and took it in stride.

I think it was Natasha who said Natalie reluctantly took her and Courtney to see the blue lagoon because all of their friends had seen the movie. I think they were 6 and 9 at the time.

- In his new autobiography "Pieces of My Heart", Wagner claims he would sit with a gun outside Beatty's home, intent on killing him.

R502, That must have been awkward.

In her 1984 book, Lana Wood admitted that she and Warren Beatty fucked a few years after his affair with Natalie ended.

I lamented that there wasn’t much activity on this thread immediately after the documentary first aired. My concerns have happily been alleviated.

R502 Why didn't he shoot?!

Barbara Rush interviewed at 93 talks about her early years in Hollywood and Jeffrey Hunter...

[quote]effrey Hunter was so handsome. He is in this movie called “No Down Payment” that I watched for free on utube. It was a dark cynical melodrama about life in the post war LA suburbs. He played the part of an earnest engineer with a grasping wife. May have been Barbara Rush?

R487 Fuck, that was dark. I got sucked in. Hunter is HAF and Woodward chews up the scenery. This was the year before The Long Hot Summer with Paul Newman.

Interestingly, Jeffrey Hunter was considered for Prince Valiant and RJ got it and promptly bombed in it. From Hunter's Wikipedia...

[quote]The title role in Prince Valiant, which had been mentioned for him, was given to Robert Wagner. "It was a terrible disappointment to me," said Hunter later. "I just didn't know what to do. It seemed my career was over. They were making a lot of pictures on the lot, but I wasn't cast in any of them and I couldn't understand why, particularly since I started out with such a terrific lot of luck."

I was interested in that movie because it was the only thing I saw that had a young Sheree North in it but I never got around to it...

The Butler did it! Suzanne Finstead's bio of Natalie was red hot and fully sourced. She is the only one willing to print what others alluded to. . .that Natalie walked in on RJ with the butler -- a David Cavendish who'd been with them for years:

"Lana told me recently that Cavendish lived with R.J. in a bachelor apartment in Beverly Hills before he married Natalie. “R.J. had him living with him as his ‘valet,’ his ‘man,’” Hyatt told me. “Natalie was questioning why he had that guy before they got married. She was trying to get rid of him.”

I even found movie magazines from the ’50s with fan-girl articles about the young Wagner that include a peculiar mention of his live-in butler. For a Photoplay article in 1953, the dapper 23-year-old actor posed for photographs outside his “first bachelor apartment,” an elegant Colonial fourplex. Per the magazine, Wagner’s friend, actor Dan Dailey, suggested he rent the apartment below his. Dailey, an older song-and-dance man from MGM musicals of the ’40s, lived in a one-bedroom with his “houseboy.”"

"Brecher [a screenwriter friend of theirs] measured his words carefully. “I only saw one thing,” he told me. “And I—Jesus. It’s not an awful thing I saw. But once I did see him with another actor, in a very—in a house, and I happened to walk in the room. And they weren’t doing anything serious, but one of them was fondling the other’s butt.” This happened, Brecher said, around June 1961—the same month that Natalie took an overdose of sleeping pills and went into a coma.

Brecher’s account suggests that R.J. took risks with his trysts. “It was in a private house,” Brecher recalled. “They were guests in the house on the way out to dinner.” The actor who was fondling or being fondled by Wagner was “reasonably” well-known, the director said. “Nothing was made of it, [so] there was no embarrassment.”

His 2nd wife in between Natalie, Katie's mother, was so obviously a beard. He must've been kept by her during a career low.

Slightly off subject but Hart to Hart was on some Hallmark Movie Channel last night (I always just watch the intro and change the channel — but I’m surprised by how often it’s on lately) — was Stefanie Powers really considered a “beauty?”

R512, Marion's husband prior to Wagner was legendary director Stanley Donen, with whom she had two sons. After marrying Wagner, Marion battled Donen for custody and it became bitter.

At one point, Donen told the judge that he believed Wagner might be gay and not someone he felt should be living in the same house with his sons.

The fact that a Hollywood director of musical films would play the gay card seems ludicrous.

Marion Wagner was awarded primary custody.

R510, Dan Dailey was a chronic alcoholic and a cross dresser. He once showed up at the premiere of one of his films roaring drunk and in full drag.

R510 that article suggests Sinatra molested Natalie so maybe we have been wrong about Kirk all this time?

Tony Curtis in his lousy autobiography says he had sex with Natalie in his dressing room making "The Great Race". He said it was during filming of the iceberg scene. His book is nothing more than listing his IMBD with I fucked her, didn't fuck her.....

R516, Natalie and Sinatra had a consensual affair, condoned by her mother, even though Natalie was underage.

Yes when I checked Frank and Kirk's years of being a film producer it appears Kirk started first. The rumor was that Natalie met with an actor-producer so it seems more likely to be Kirk.

R517. Did Curtis mention the male escorts he hired?

According to Finstad (thanks, R510) , RJ had powerful friends in Hollywod, like Sinatra, who protected and covered for him.

[quote]What an aide of Noguchi did disclose was a “heated” argument between Wagner and Walken before Natalie disappeared, a tip given to Noguchi’s office by a sheriff’s investigator. The argument was disturbing enough that Noguchi told the assembled press that he believed Natalie wanted to get off the boat. When asked by one of the reporters why Natalie would leave the boat in a nightgown, Noguchi replied, “We are going to investigate that.” He intended to do a “psychological autopsy” on Natalie to learn why she felt she had to separate herself from her husband and Walken.

[quote]After this disclosure, Noguchi was almost instantly fired by the Board of Supervisors—which was under pressure, he and his lawyer told me, from Frank Sinatra. “I represented Dr. Noguchi then,” says Godfrey Isaac, “and Frank Sinatra got very upset. The letter from Frank Sinatra to the Board of Supervisors is really what triggered them demoting Tom.”

[quote]Sinatra’s strong-arm tactics were not surprising. The director Henry Jaglom had told me how Sinatra kept Natalie under surveillance by his “goons” when Jaglom took her out in her mid-20s; a protective, and proprietary, interest that began, I had learned, when Natalie was 15.

More on Sinatra, Wood and Wagner from the Finstad. piece...

[quote]Two years after I published Natasha: The Biography of Natalie Wood, Frank Sinatra’s right-hand man of 15 years, George Jacobs, wrote the memoir Mr. S: My Life with Frank Sinatra. Jacobs, who worked for Sinatra from 1953 to 1968, was a silent accomplice to his boss’s sexual assignations. “One affair that, unlike the others, was conducted in top secret was with Natalie Wood,” Jacobs wrote in 2003, “because she was a minor at the time, either 15 or 16, though she didn’t act like it.” According to Jacobs, “Sinatra adored this tiny beauty, but he didn’t want to go the way of Charlie Chaplin or Errol Flynn or, later, Roman Polanski.” Jacobs says he mixed the drinks when Natalie’s “insanely ambitious Russian mother” brought her to Sinatra’s apartment for a cocktail in 1954 and “pushed her on Frank, who needed no pushing.” Sinatra told Jacobs that he had been “taken by” Natalie since Miracle on 34th Street, a film she made when she was eight. Sinatra’s procurer, Natalie’s mother, Maria Gurdin, “had her kid all dolled up,” recalls Jacobs, “total jailbait, in a form-fitting black party dress, and Mr. S went for it in a big way.”

[quote]Sinatra’s MO with Natalie was like a playbook for aspiring Humbert Humberts. “Nothing dirty-old-mannish,” his valet boasts, “he was never like that. He played them cuts from his upcoming album, provided career suggestions.” That was the quid pro quo for Gurdin. After cocktails Sinatra arranged for Natalie to return regularly—alone—for “singing lessons.” “Mr. S would send me away when she was there,” says Jacobs. “ ‘I don’t want you to testify,’ he joked. He wanted to be ‘in Like Flynn,’ but he didn’t want to be ruined for it.”

[quote]Jacobs observed what I also found. “Mr. S truly cherished her, and whatever went on in private, he was also a father to her more than her own father, very protective.” The 38-year-old Sinatra’s “seduction” of 15-year-old Natalie, tragically, would have been both child molestation and statutory rape. Actor Scott Marlowe told me he had observed signs that she’d been molested.

[quote]Post-autopsy in late 1981 Sinatra, enraged that Noguchi disclosed at a press conference that Sinatra’s great friend R.J. had a heated altercation with Walken before Natalie disappeared, pressured the Board of Supervisors to fire Noguchi in a scathing letter, insisting that coroners “should be seen and not heard.”

[quote]By R.J.’s own description, he had made a career from the favors and good graces of famous friends, names he liked to drop, like Fred Astaire, Clifton Webb, and “Spence” Tracy. According to Jacobs, R.J. ingratiated himself with Sinatra so deeply that Sinatra “always gave him ‘a pass.’” By precipitating Noguchi’s firing, Sinatra shut down the last hope for any of Natalie’s truths to be known in an official investigation of her death.

So did Natalie never really go through an awkward teen age phase? It sounds like she was attractive at all ages?

R523, Just a few unflattering haircuts.

The article and biography quotes Scott Marlowe that Natalie had a shockingly advanced knowledge of sex. But I assume he learned this from what she said and not from she did to him, since he was known to be gay.

Does this mean Natalie was into rimming?

r525 When she told me she was into water sports, I thought that meant swimming, so I threw her into the ocean! What's the big deal?

THE MEMORY OF EVA RYKER (1980)

Some good camp here. Very "Marnie". Gotta love it being set in France,yet clearly filmed in Cali. Featuring DL fav Morgan Fairchild. The old school commercials are worth watching too.

[quote]By R.J.’s own description, he had made a career from the favors and good graces of famous friends, names he liked to drop, like Fred Astaire, Clifton Webb, and “Spence” Tracy.

I'm trying to put my finger on what those three men had in common . . .

[quote]By R.J.’s own description, he had made a career from the favors and good graces of famous friends, names he liked to drop, like Fred Astaire, Clifton Webb, and “Spence” Tracy.

I'm trying to put my finger on what those three men had in common . . .

R529/ R530 Apparently two fingers...

R528 How ironic that Natalie's character ends up dead, floating face-down in sea water.

[quote]Yes when I checked Frank and Kirk's years of being a film producer it appears Kirk started first. The rumor was that Natalie met with an actor-producer so it seems more likely to be Kirk.

In the previous documentary with Finstad and Lana Wood, they talked about the horrific rape Natalie suffered from the "actor/producer" and then, immediately, cut to a shot of the "Kirk Douglas Theater" appropos of nothing. It was obvious. An open secret that's been known for years.

Was Kirk Douglas known to be a large man, down there?

In her autobiography, Evelyn Keyes wrote that Kirk was an incredible lover and that he loved to eat pussy.

what do you think of this pic?

R532 I recall watching that movie at the time and seeing that very shot. It was eerie even before everything that happened. I guess I remembered it because of what occurred the following year.

RJ was a homophobe, but not a sociopath. I doubt there was any intent to kill Natalie. He did convince her to end her friendship with Sal Mineo when they started dating because he did not like homosexuals.

R538, And yet, he employed a homosexual butler when a young and single man and maintained his employment after marrying Natalie when the three of them were living together in a small apartment.

Friends, family members and even Natalie could not see the need for a 24 x 7 butler.

[quote]RJ was a homophobe

Horse shit as stated above he was close friends with Mart Crowley until his recent death not just when Natalie was alive and they spent weekends at Roddy MacDowell's Malibu beach house

Wagner was NOTORIOUS for allowing older homosexuals to assist him in getting his career.

If you watch Mart Crowley talking about Natalie's death in the Making of the Boys in the Band documentary he refers to Wagner as "her husband". It seems apparent that Mart was far closer to Natalie, despite him being a producer on Hart to Hart. I'm sure Mart knew more than he was prepared to say on camera.

R534 No, and his height is listed as 5'9" which is probably padded.

The article and biography quotes Scott Marlowe that Natalie had a shockingly advanced knowledge of sex. But I assume he learned this from what she said and not from she did to him, since he was known to be gay.

R525 I clearly remember Dennis Hopper telling a story about Natalie organizing group scenes and taking baths together with with some of her Warner Bros. boy co-workers when she was very young. including of course Dennis himself.

Robert Osborne was also a close friend of RJ and Jill's until his death. I don't think for a minute RJ is any special kind of homophobe. However, he's 90, so I would imagine that he wasn't impervious to the general homophobia that characterized his generation.

Homophobe? What in the world are you talking about?. He lived with Clifton Webb FFS. RJ has had plenty of dick in his long life.

It was the kind of 'homophobia' which was expressed in terms of loathing any open homosexuals of the sort who might break the discretion of the closeted ones, like Wagner.

In that photo with Jeffrey Hunter, RJ looks like a 13-year-old girl.

Thomas Noguchi examined a lot of famous dead bodies but he was never very well regarded. He had a big mouth, and he liked attention. He liked to stir things up. He liked the publicity.

So Frank Sinatra got him fired? I think that's bullshit. He got himself fired. According to Wikipedia he "developed a high profile as CME, and was often accused of speaking too freely to the media, particularly following the November 1981 deaths of William Holden and Natalie Wood, which, along with moonlighting and alleged mismanagement, led to his demotion from coroner to physician specialist in 1982." Noguchi was behaving like a douche; that's what got him fired.

R549 You know, I never realized that William Holden and Natalie Wood died a little over a week apart! Two big "Old Hollywood" stars (albeit, faded) gone in such a short amount of time, and both from accidents.

R550 and Stefanie Powers had a connection with both of them!!

THE AFFAIR (1973)

Not good quality and with Greek subtitles, but watchable. God, there's ZERO heat or chemistry between Natalie and R.J. here. Natalie herself is quite good here though. A nice, lovely, subtle performance. She was very hit-or-miss, but to say she was a bad or talentless actress is completely wrong IMO.

R550, And Grace Kelly would die less than a year after Natalie at 52, also by accident.

R549, He also wrote a book that included details of celebrity autopsies during his years as CME, including Marilyn Monroe in 1962.

Okay, maybe not a bad actress, but I am not a fan of her acting style. When Natalie does crying scenes, she’s so overwrought, like a female Sean Penn. Completely hammy. This is noticeable in SPLENDOR IN THE GRASS.

What was the point of Wagner writing about the alleged affair that he had with Barbara Stanwyck? “I fucked the butchest leading lady in Hollywood, so that makes me heterosexual?”

Both of Barbara’s husbands, Frank Fay and Robert Taylor, were deeply closeted. And Taylor definitely used the casting couch to get ahead.

Frank Fay was also known to be an anti Jewish fascist. It had a negative impact on his film and stage career. He also used to slap Barbara and their adopted son around.