What Is It About Italians That Is Causing So Many To Die From Covid-19?

They have more sex than other countries.

They were late in taking drastic actions so their pandemic got really bad.

Right now America is on the same course...

I think they have more elderly, and in the South were people are poorer a lot of Italians live in multi- generational houses.

And R2 we are a much bigger country with too many Red Robins

They are very old.

Probably because there are a lot of old people there and an inadequate medical system to handle the number of patients. Also, I read somewhere the strain of virus in Italy is different from the ones in China, so it could be even more virulent.

The outbreak and deaths are more concentrated in the north r3. In Lombardy state specifically.

What R5 said, their population skews older. They also didn't take it very seriously at the beginning.

It’s mostly in one region with high population density, tons of old people, and inadequate space in hospitals. Very sad.

Map of cases in Italy. Scroll down a bit.

Italy is supposed to have one of the best health care in Europe...or that's what I heard.

They greet each other by kissing.

R12 Handshaking is worse though.

It really is the age thing. Their population skews much older than most other countries.

They also really had trouble (like we have had in the US) getting their act together in the early stages. Part of that is because the country is run mostly by local municipalities which are infamously corrupt and slow to act. because of this, Italians often try to get around local bureaucratic restrictions which they feel are unjust and stupid.

Most of the DEATHS in France have been among people 75+, but most of the ICU hospitalizations have been among people under 60.

Something interesting I read, maybe someone posted it on this board, was that the reason it first hit Italy is because they sold or shipped production of many of their textile businesses over there, so they are in close contact with the Chinese often.

I heard on TV that they were not adhering to the laws regarding lock downs etc.

The stupid moron at r16 again trying to promote his fucking stupid bullshit theory. You heard your ass farting, r16.

1). The population is aging, they aren't having a lot of children.

2). There are neighborhoods of Chinese laborers working in the garment industry. High-end apparel is still made in Italy, but by the same type of labor Nike, etc., uses. There were direct flights from Milan to Wuhan. So their epidemic probably started in December as soon as it started in China, except, unlike the Chinese government, the Italians didn't know what was happening.

We all have national debt held by China -- we should cancel some of it in return for what they have done to us.

I've been reading that with the reduced availability of ventilators and ICU beds, in Europe they're making decisions about who can receive treatment and who doesn't. If it's an elderly person and a younger person who might be able to survive with proper care, they'll offer palliative care to the elderly and save the recovery treatment to those they think can survive.

R20 Yes, that is exactly why they are taking drastic measures to reduce exposure and slow the rate of infection.

As you know, Lombardy has its capital in Milan, global hub of fashion and finance and upscale restaurants and shopping. It also has the upscale resort town of Lake Como. So lots of rich jetsetters from all over the world fly in and out of Milan. In February, Milan held its annual fashion week, which had many designers canceling due to rumors that the virus was already there and spreading. It was a little too late.

R19 is right. It's the massive Chinese population living in that area and their direct contac with Wuhan.

Smoking increases the chance of getting sick and dying. Wuhan's men chain smoke since the age of 8. Italians also smoke.

Average age in Italy is about 48. In Africa it's 18 or 19. The older you are the greater the risk.

Anyone on diabetes, blood pressure, or several other meds has a 4 times greater risk of getting sick and dying, especially combined with the above factors.

Genetics play a big part. There's a chart showing that Chinese and Asians are more susceptible because of their ACT receptors. (Sorry but I'm not skilled in medical terminology to explain it better but bottom line is that humans are definitely not identical.) Next comes Indians and Pakistanis. Then Native Americans and Natives from Canada.

Those living in UT have the lowest in the world. Italians are in between Native Americans and Mormons in UT.

Note that similarly previous pandemics hit Chinese and Native Americans living in Toronto much harder than other ethnic groups.

Some have speculated that genetic ancestry also plays a factor. Those whose ancestors survived the Black Plague will have much more resistance to Coronavirus like they did to previous pandemics.

Thx R24 - that’s the first hint of good news I’ve gotten. Ancestor of Black Plague survivors here - so hopefully I’ll survive. Also gave me alcohol issues and a cancer gene - so it would be nice if there was some kind of upside.

Linked is an older study explaining better why the descants of Black Plague survivors are more resistant to some pandemics.

Thx R26. Always wondered why I never got HIV too. I was definitely exposed but never tested positive.

I think maybe China has been covering up and lying about their true death rates, making Italy’s numbers look much worse.

Italians are tactile social people, it must be difficult for them to self-isolate.

The Vatican has been shipping over Thai ladybois in secret.

Spicy meatballs?

R28 for the win. I don't trust Chinese numbers in the least. They're very careful about having any damaging information come out about their country.

It's not freedom of the press. The Chinese are lying. They even floated a rumor that the virus came from an American military facility. BULLSHIT!

They lie so much to save face.

[quote] Ancestor of Black Plague survivors here - so hopefully I’ll survive.

This is officially the stupidest thing I've heard all week.

And there were multiple Trump press conferences this week, so that's really saying something.

Are some on this thread trolls or just joking?

First of all Italians smoke less than most other European countries.

Italy has a highly rated health system.

Italy acted FAST, faster than any other Euro country considering the number of cases and deaths when it acted. Remember Italy cancelled all flights to and from China on January 31st.

It is the UK, France, Germany that have been irresponsabile. You'll see soon enough. And not to mention the US....

Also: R18 is an absolute idiot.

They are simply horrid people.

I have heard from my Dr friend that there is a much more virulent strain there. It’s hard to get a grip on how this is mutating.

Too much vino wine and not enough drinking water. They don't practice healthy living.

The German PM said the Italian Healthcare system was "subpar"

That explains it all.

It's has nothing to do with Italians, except for the fact their population is older . It has more to do with Italy being a tiny, tightly packed country with millions of visitors each year.

[quote]Linked is an older study explaining better why the descants of Black Plague survivors are more resistant to some pandemics.

Descants?

[quote]A coronavirus cautionary tale from Italy: Don’t do what we did. Many of us were too selfish to follow suggestions to change our behavior. Now we’re in lockdown and people are needlessly dying.

China and Iran are now blaming the US for Covid-19. Claiming the US Army developed the virus as a biological weapon.

r36 Scary, I'd hoped it wouldn't mutate

And I have little doubt that if we had a real POTUS, China and Iran probably would not have started the blaming. They're just giving Trump a taste of his own medicine. This is just more evidence of how Trump has divided us from the rest of the world. Whoever becomes POTUS after this freak will have his work cut out for him to regain the trust of the rest of the world.

Iran has always been cray cray, let's not pretend otherwise

No, a real POTUS would have offered the full assistance from the US, from medical to military, to help other countries get through this. Trump has not offered to help anyone. He's tried to see to it that the US would be the only country on earth that would have a cure or a vaccine and I'm sure the only way any other country would have been able to get access to it would be to pay a huge price.

[QUOTE] It has more to do with Italy being a tiny, tightly packed country with millions of visitors each year.

It isn't small, though. 22% of their population is over 70, which is why so many are dying. They also all live on top of each other in tiny flats, unlike the Brits who are in row houses.

[QUOTE] No, a real POTUS would have offered the full assistance from the US, from medical to military, to help other countries get through this.

Are you nuts? The US is huge and needs its money and military itself.

So tedious when the Trump obsessives jump on the thread and start their tirades.

Evangelicals want a Theocracy just like Iran. They are not the only crazies.

By thecway, Trump has not done even one thing right since he has been in office.

With most other presidents we absolutely WOULD have volunteered to help other countries, there's no question. A big part of our role in the world economy and culture is using our resources to help others, while of course sharing knowledge; we'd send researchers, equipment, and scientists to South Korea or Italy, for example, help them out, but also learn from them and apply that knowledge to Americans.

There was no question we'd ever do that with Trump. He's decimated our resources and has no concern for his own citizens, let alone those in other countries. And you couldn't explain to him the concept of sharing research if you tried. He simply wouldn't care or understand.

Fuck off, R30. This is a thread about Italians and the virus. The death rate in the US has slowed down. It's Boris Johnson who's thrown his country under a bus with ridiculous talk of 'herd immunity'. He didn't even ban planes from Italy.

No Italy did not act nearly fast enough r14.

When the virus spread from China to South Korea, Hong Kong and Singapore they immediately took drastic actions to stop the spread.

Italy was still carrying on as life as normal for far too long. They only shut down country wide on Monday.

You are right that other western countries are also doing a terrible job compared to Asian ones but France and Spain are still shutting down earlier into the spread than Italy did.

The Italian response was not good, that's why it got worse there than other countries that were able to contain their pandemic.

And no one is praising the American reponse, that is why commentators are calling America the next Italy.

Meant to reply to r34 of course.

Er, who is R52 referring to? Surely not the guy joking about ladyboys?

And now, a moment of sanity, proportion and perspective:

[bold]Nigeria is already dealing with a deadlier viral outbreak than the coronavirus epidemic[/bold]

The detection of Covid-19 coronavirus in Nigeria raised early concerns about the country’s capacity to handle a major epidemic but so far local public health officials have been commended for handling the outbreak with aplomb.

But the coronavirus is not the only viral outbreak in Africa’s most populous country. Nigeria is currently dealing with what is turning out to be the world’s largest epidemic of Lassa fever, a viral disease deadlier than coronavirus.

Lassa fever is a severe viral hemorrhagic fever (VHF) like Ebola and Marburg that occurs throughout the year in Nigeria and was declared an “active outbreak” by the Nigeria Centre for Disease Control (NCDC) five weeks into 2020. The epidemic which occurs during the annual dry season (roughly November through March) has spread across half the country.

The Lassa fever virus is transmitted to humans through contact with food or household items contaminated with urine and feces of a rat. It’s also known to spread from person-to-person through contact with the body fluids and organs of infected persons, which has resulted in healthcare workers easily getting infected; some have died.

The epidemic, whose rapid escalation started right from the second week of the year, had by the end of the ninth week seen 774 cases and 132 deaths spread across 26 of Nigeria’s 36 states and the federal capital territory.

R36 And now some are saying the Italian strain of this virus came into Italy from... Germany! I am sensing there is no love lost between these two.

They dicks are too big.

Tell ‘em, Emmanuel:

Italy didn’t limit Chinese people from coming their. Chinese tourists love Italy. Also Italy has an older population.

R60 There were strict limits on the other end since China wasn't letting their citizens travel. That's why there were very few cases outside of China after the lockdown. However, foreign nationals were flying out of China either of their own accord or due to evacuation by foreign countries. This was a bad idea since other countries had various standard for quarantine, and some weren't take it seriously. So the later the outbreak the less likely it was due to Chinese citizens spreading it. It is rather the travelers carrying the virus with them back to their home country from the secondary outbreak sites in SK, Japan, Iran and Italy. The current situation is the US is precisely due to its refusal to test returning American travelers until it is too late. So blaming it to China or Chinese is rather ridiculous at this point.

Just maybe Italy having universal health care has allowed people to live longer, up until now.

Republicans are using Italy as proof that socialized health care doesn’t provide shit.

Maybe it’s a more virulent strain. Someone said that’s been debunked, but why is that so hard to believe?

[quote]Italy acted FAST, faster than any other Euro country considering the number of cases and deaths when it acted. Remember Italy cancelled all flights to and from China on January 31st.

No, it didn't act fast. They limited testing to only people with ties to China despite an increase in ARDS cases in mid-January. And the outbreak in Lombardy is attributed to one person who went to the hospital thinking he had CV and was sent home because he didn't have ties to China. He returned two days later and in worse shape and was hospitalized but not put into isolation and no precautions were taken, again because he had no ties to China. He ended up infecting a lot of people, including medical staff, who went on to infect a lot of people.

And banning direct flights was looked on as a bad move as people just came through other countries, which then limited Italy's ability to track people.

Scientists have been hunting for the so-called “patient zero” ever since the contagion first came to light in the prosperous northern region of Lombardy on Feb. 21.

After extensive analysis, the Milan team has not yet identified the individual at the root of the worst outbreak in Europe, but they have matched the Italian genetic sequencing of the virus here to a case that emerged in Germany in January.

“The sequence closest to the base of the branch, which is the one that probably precedes the others, came from a person infected in Munich in all likelihood between Jan. 19-22,” said Massimo Galli, head of the university research group and of the infectious-diseases department at Milan’s Sacco hospital.

Galli added that the German patient had caught the virus after contacting someone who came from Shanghai.

He said their analysis showed that the Italian outbreak must have started between Jan. 25-26, well before the first patient was officially diagnosed in the northern town of Codogno.

“We can imagine that a person who contracted the virus in the context of those infected in Munich came to Italy and the area where the virus first spread without showing any symptoms,” Galli told Reuters.

All old people. Italy was the hot spot for longevity...until

all about patient 1, r66.

The UK is the next Italy as it's doing NOTHING to stop the spread. St Patricks' Day is tomorrow and everyone will fill the pubs getting drunk as they always do. The US has done far more than the UK.

We have 56 deaths and 1550 cases in the UK. In relation to the population of 66m, that is much worse than the US already.

Do you think Italy is more affected by this because of their aged population?

This is not much covered for some reason, but explains a lot.

[quote] The US is huge and needs its money and military itself.

So why are we shelling out trillions of dollars a year to countries like Israel and so many others?

R18, you're a fucking stupid twat.

I think the density, extremely social culture, daily shopping and concentration of Chinese in Italy were factors in its intensity of infection. A lot of Americans rarely interact with people except work. Leave this single family home, drive alone in their car to the office, shop in large markets or get home delivery. Americans actually have to make an effort to go to social settings - like Olive Garden.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

This virus is wiping out White people ... and Non Whites like Italians

America is going to surpass Italy.

It's because one health team person could spread all illnesses to all those patients in a gym. They are not using universal precautions. If someone was presumed Covid 19, they just did not help them. In Italy, the rich get everything the rest nothing. This was already seen with how they responded to the last recession. Just because they have a new fancy hospital and gardens, does not mean this is for the people of Italy. It for Anna wintour and her botox regime. And just because you have a new hospital building does not mean you have qualified medical staff and supplies in there. If you have idiotas, facisitas and no supplies, that is not real a hospital.

Iran China and Italy do not treat their people well. I do not think we should do this. I think we need smart and ethical people looking at treatment.

When someone has complications from COvid 19, and they have respiratory distress that kills them, WHY? What is happening here? How do we prevent this with treatment!?!!!

For the first time I'm happy to see hot weather come. It got up to 87 where I live yesterday. If the virus doesn't do well in hot weather then bring on the upper 90s & 100s I say.

They aren't really dying from Covid19. Only 12 deaths have been from that

Here's an Italian site that says the same thing..

Use Google Translate to read it

It's all about managing the numbers.

This is karma to whites

And non-whites like Italian that wanna be white

Italians ARE Caucasians (or "white" for an ignoramus like you). White people come in all sorts of shades.

Caucasian doesn’t mean white. They aren’t white.

Here we go again. The idiot who tries to claim only albinos from nordic countries white.

Italians aren’t white. They’re more Mediterranean than anything.

I was thinking about what China, Italy and the UK have in common - dense population, older population, but also smoking. I have an epidemiologist friend who said although not much is known, they are learning more daily and they are considering smoking (along with many other things) as a factor in serious infection.

[quote]This is karma to whites

Then why are so many Asians getting it?

R45 - the reason Iran is "cray cray" is because those that weren't that way got the fuck out of Iran in the late 1970's. Seriously I met a doctor, he's 2nd generation Persian in the U.S. Even to the traditional first name.He was impressed I identified as Persian and not Iranian. But it explains why Iran right now is just full of the idiots.

Are the Chinese textile industry workers in Italy dying?

No one ever mentions that.

R20 That is what Europe is trying to prevent. That's why most schools, work places etc are closed. It's to flatten the curve. Nobody thinks this quarantine will automatically mean that we have beat this thing, that probably won't happen for a very long while. The quarantine is to prevent a ton of people to get sick at once, to distribute the sick people over a longer time period. That way the hospitals won't be overwhelmed, the hospitals can treat people who need it, hopefully they'll get better, then treat the next person, instead of a ton of people getting infected at once and needing treatment, which the hospitals can't give. We are quarantining ourselves out of respect and sympathy for those who are high risk, the elderly and people with pre-existing conditions.

"The quarantine is to prevent a ton of people to get sick at once, to distribute the sick people over a longer time period. "

And I HOPE, it's also to delay cases until treatment is more effective, or maybe, even put off infecting everyone until there's a vaccine available!

If course hoping that a vaccine with make a difference is probably pathetically optimistic, given the time frame of infection vs. vaccine production, but hoping that treatment will improve might not be. I mean right now, it's either go home until you're better, or get put on a ventilator until you can breathe on your own. Maybe in a few weeks, there might be some helpful drug therapy!

R91- Do mean Dr Now from My 600 Pound Life?

There was a thread here on DL early last week. It talked about the reason for the shut down of the entire country of Italy. According to that poster the high numbers in Italy have to do with the garment industry and the fact that Chinese bought up clothing manufacturing in Italy. Chinese have been doing those sweatshop jobs and when they get sick they are shipped back to China and some other Chinese person is brought in to fill their place. Instead of just quarantining the Chinese which would have looked racist they shut down the whole of Italy.

Apparently this practice of sending the ill back to China and replacing them with new imported Chinese has been going on for a while.

This is according to the thread I mentioned at the start of my post and is one explanation as to why Italy has so many cases, lots of Chinese in and out of that country and some of them sick.

Average age + They kiss each other constantly + Lack of government preparation = disaster

GE make CS female ration in Italy - twice as many men die as women despite similar infection rates - is intriguing. Wonder if there is a correlation with heart disease. Women are like cockroaches - they live so much longer than men it seems.

Thanks r81.

Yeah, it says only 12 cases in Italy died from only having the Rona. The rest of the cases had at least 3 existing conditions that lead to their deaths while having the Rona.

The mortality for men vs women ratio in Italy - ^

They are a very social, touchy-feely type of culture. The concept of social distancing wasn’t taken seriously there until it was too late.

[quote]This virus is wiping out White people.

Actually, there is a lot of speculating in the medical community right now... that the reason why Covid-19 isn’t being seen in Africa is because so many people there have been treated with anti-malarial drugs.

There is a lot of interest in the drug Chloroquine right now which is showing some promise in treating Covid patients.

Excuse me, r99??

I don't like just numbers being posted. Why not list the average age or something? If it's all 80-yr. olds then I think the world needs to know that.

I think they should list ages.

R104/R105

Don't they have Google yet over there by you?

A breakdown of ages isn't being released, just vague numbers.

Anyone who has watched Golden Girls knows that Italy is rife with curses. If someone didn't kiss a fool, help a holy man or reveal the betrayal of a loved one in order to prevent a curse, there's this kind of disaster.

They published the average age (or was it median) of deaths in Italy as of yesterday. 79.5 years of age! Bad timing - as it was the day the US was using to try to scare the millennials and Gen Z into staying home. But a shocking number to me. Clearly seems to confirm it is old people dying. Now whether that is due to triage or natural effect is subject to question. But comforting to this 49 year old.

AVERAGE age 79.5

[quote]A breakdown of ages isn't being released, just vague numbers.

You're quite stupid and helpless.

The figures a quick search away.

They are not putting the old people in ICUs or putting them on ventilators. They are just sending them home with pain meds to die. Aggressive treatment is being reserved for younger people who have a better chance at survival. That’s why all the deaths are old people. They’re not treating the olds.

China and Italy- populations from both countries share the love of heavy-smoking . I think that inherently worsens your outcome if you become infected.

[quote]China and Italy- populations from both countries share the love of heavy-smoking .

And where did you get that info that Italians are heavy smokers?

R102, there are over 600 confirmed COVID-19 cases in 34 countires in Africa, according to WHO. The number could actually be higher, but not many people are getting tested.

[quote]They are not putting the old people in ICUs or putting them on ventilators. They are just sending them home with pain meds to die. Aggressive treatment is being reserved for younger people who have a better chance at survival. That’s why all the deaths are old people. They’re not treating the olds.

I would hate to have a European style healthcare system.

[quote]I would hate to have a European style healthcare system.

You have no idea what's in store for you. Check back with us in a month.

r111 it's average age, not a full breakdown.

Italians don't smoke as much as they used to. The numbers of smokers have gone down, as they have all over Europe. Once again is seems like DLers are going by their own personal experiences from decades ago.

[quote] it's average age, not a full breakdown.

*sigh*

[quote]Italians don't smoke as much as they used to.

Germany, Spain, Austria, France, Netherlands....all have higher smoking rates than Italy.

But

Fuck off, ludicrous spaztastic False Flagger at R82.

"But" = typo

The idea that the heat kills the virus is a myth. It's proliferating in hot countries like Australia and the Philippines.

Like the above posters have said, it was the Chinese workers going back and forth. Milan has direct flights to Wuhan, or did until very recently.

Also, the Italian population has a very high percentage of elderly, and people live in multi-generational homes in close contact with each other.

R124 All flights stopped after China locked down Wuhan. This virus in Italy is not from Wuhan. Chinese in Italy are leaving now to go back to China to escape the European virus outbreak.

Flights were still leaving between Milan and Wuhan before the lockdown. It came too late. The virus appeared in Dec. of last year, Wuhan wasn't locked down until Jan. 23rd. Of COURSE the virus in Italy came from Wuhan.

Or Wuhan got it from Italy if Italy had it in December.

R125 Why are you posting bullshit? What's your motive?

r127 it has been proven beyond a doubt that Coronavirus started in Wuhan (thanks to the disgusting eating habits, hygiene and sanitation of the Chinese) and spread from there. The filthy motherfuckers eat anything that moves (even raw), piss and shit and spit in public etc. That's where it came from. China. As have most other weird shit diseases. Trying to say that it came from Italy is fucking ridiculous.

Agree R129. R125 is clearly Chinese and probably eating a live bat as he types.

the italians got hit hard with serious cases at the same time, they had no organization and there was no information about what to do to treat it. The global epidemiologists are saying it was several factors, but only are mentioning that they did not quarantine (shelter in place) social distancing, soon enough.

They couldn't find the patient 0, but the patient 1 is an employee of Unilever from Codogno.

Very high percentage of elderly - more multi-generational living arrangements. This article called the state of Florida an "uber Italy".

However, Americans don't go to Sunday dinner every week with their grandparents the way Italians do, and our suburbs with separate detached housing are actually an already in-place type of self-isolation, which might be protective. And the sparse population density - at least in most of the country.

People in far east Asian cultures -- the Japanese, Chinese, Koreans -- are culturally more likely and historically used to prizing conformity and being obedient to authoritarian governments. The nail that sticks out gets hammered down. It makes it easier for their government to impose sudden or harsh measures onto the populace without meeting much resistence.

Italians are a more individualistic people, skeptical of authority (if not belligerent), more likely to go against the grain and more prone to infighting/disagreements. While these qualities make for great creativity, when it comes to quickly corralling people, this is more of a challenge. (i.e. not everyone is on the same page).

Cheek kissing.

That hag Donatella Versace was hiring cheap Chinese workers to sew her dresses.

Brits are the absolute worst. The most arrogant thanks to winning two wars. Always have to be different. Last night millions hit the pubs for 'one last pint' before the shutdown.

the only thing different about the Italians is that they are several weeks ahead of us.....dont worry, we will catch up soon.

"Whole villages in Italy became Chinese villages, with the Chinese displacing the Italians who lived there, creating their own neighborhoods, and pushing out decades of Italian family owned business. They weren’t known for following the rules."

I'm really getting sad about the state of our world. Instead of governments and countries helping each other to sort this out, it's all blaming each other and ridiculous conspiracy theories and speculation. China said US athletes deliberately spread a global pandemic? Really? On this thread it's the blame game, plus straight up WISHING and hoping for other countries to be hit as hard as Italy, Iran and China. WTF has happened to the world that there is this kind of misanthropy, and I think this place isn't as bad as others. The crazy thing is unlike most things - like our diets, politics, culture, lifestyles, etc - we are all in this together. It's globalism MF'ers, there is no going back, Chinese viruses ARE US viruses, there is no containment. This is what will wipe out humanity, I always assumed it would be nuclear war, but the way the world is handling this we have absolutely no chance when something REALLY deadly starts to spread. This is a fucking cold. Jesus Christ it's depressing. Finally, how is everyone this ignorant. Our school system in the US is so bad that people don't understand anything about how this stuff works. Hand sanitizer with triclozan or whatever isn't going to help. Hoarding toilet paper in a country with a supply chain like ours could never be necessary, it just makes it scarce so normal people can't find any. And the media. Scare ignorant people much? It's absolutely insane. Nobody trusts government or media, so it's just crazy Alex Jones type rumors spreading around, making people hoard TP and buy tons of guns. Oh, and let's let the prisoners out too, that will just be awesome in a "let's actually destroy our entire economy and society AND create a zombie drug crazed hoard apocalypse because of the common cold." IDIOCRACY. When this is over, I'm moving somewhere civilized.

Italians like to smoke. I know that many of their soccer players smoke. yes I know, hard to believe a fucking pro athlete would smoke but it's true, gigi buffon is a smoker, mario balotelli smokes. They are fucking stupid cunts.

They definitely don't give a shit about laws and what is expected of them.

Since when is smoking illegal?

Despite being everyone in Spain being under government-mandated house arrest for the past week, there were 3,416 people newly infected and 233 deaths just today (21 Mar).

R142 see post R120

r144 what does that link have to do with smoking and "laws and what is expected of them?"

You don't think it makes sense? You are a professional athlete, you work out, eat right and do things that keep you fit and in top shape for your sport. Is smoking good for your body? who in their right mind smokes if they are a pro athlete? decades ago, most soccer players smoke like in England and elsewhere but most have all adopted healthy lifestyles and no longer smoke but the many Italian soccer players still do.

They obviously don't give a shit about anything...

I think we are all trying to find reasons to believe the same won’t happen to us. To be determined.

[quote]what does that link have to do with smoking and "laws and what is expected of them?"

You're the idiot who wrote: "Italians like to smoke.". Actually they like to smoke less than many other Europeans.

Laws? Smoking is not illegal....so why are you mentioning laws?

They’re being TRUTHFUL about the actual number of fatalities, unlike China, Russia, etc.

[quote] decades ago, most soccer players smoke like in England and elsewhere but most have all adopted healthy lifestyles and no longer smoke but the many Italian soccer players still do.

You don't know what you're talking about.

[quote]You're the idiot who wrote: "Italians like to smoke.". Actually they like to smoke less than many other Europeans.

I didn't write "Italians like to smoke." I mentioned that smoking rates in Italy are not what they used to be.

[quote]Laws? Smoking is not illegal....so why are you mentioning laws?

I was responding to r141's quote: [quote]They definitely don't give a shit about laws and what is expected of them.

Last time I checked, there were not laws forbidding athletes from smoking.

They are fake whites

There is no difference other than the virus spread faster than the capacity of their healthcare system to deal with it. Viruses KNOW NO NATIONAL BOUNDARIES, moron.

Because China lied about the mortality rate of the new virus. Duh.

China btw had decades of one child policy so it does not skew younger than Italy, dumbasses.

This virus is a variant of SARS, remember.

It's the Sunday Gravy gene. Only Italians have it.

Italians kiss. You see your grandparents, you kiss them on both cheeks.

Why did it hit Lake Como so hard?

That whole area has a lot of business with China because of the fashion industry. The Como area produces cloth.

Do this, Google: flights Wuhan Milan

Almost 800 of them died yesterday

Clearly Mediterranean people cant handle this disease

r159, I'm just glad it hasn't hit Lake Homo.

Watch - The US death rate will spike dramatically in the next few weeks as the cases start dying. Then, this BS thread will be obsolete.

r162 it has nothing to do with "Mediterranean people" not being able to handle this disease, Italy wasn't quarantined soon enough and they had TONS of Chinese from Wuhan entering the Milan area, which is where the deaths are concentrated.

r162 it has nothing to do with "Mediterranean people" not being able to handle this disease, Italy wasn't quarantined soon enough and they had TONS of Chinese from Wuhan entering the Milan area, which is where the deaths are concentrated.

Were there not tons of Chinese coming to the West Coast too?

Yes, R167, and that's why SF and Seattle are on lockdown right now. But I haven't heard that there are a lot of people from Wuhan in these parts, and I have heard that about Italy. That might be why the disease got out of control in Italy, a few weeks before it gets out of control on the US's west coast.

I am interested to find that Vancouver a.k.a. Hongcouver, is not sheltering in place or locked down, in spite of a huge Chinese population. Are things actually better there, or are their officials hiding their heads in the sand?

[quote]Watch - The US death rate will spike dramatically in the next few weeks as the cases start dying. Then, this BS thread will be obsolete.

We will get a surge of course. But the US has done a better job of locking things down sooner than was done in Europe.

Ok, I believe it. China loves Italy so much , they built a replica village.

Makes sense more Wuhan tourists from China were flying in to visit. Also why NYC got hit hard too.

I read the virus is mutating there to a more deadly form that is killing younger people.

If that is true, it makes sense that the whole world is suddenly going on lockdown.

R80, you have a SEVERE reading comprehension problem. R81 too

793 new deaths in Italy in a single day. Horrible.

'Laws? Smoking is not illegal....so why are you mentioning laws?'

You are clearly a smoker. Those who smoke or vape are 14 times more likely to be infected.

But r174 that has nothing to do with the law.

Isn't so much "Italians" as to why Italy is being slammed, but a series of missteps, errors and fact that that nation does not have a strong centralized government.

From NYT:

quote

‘Patient One,’ Super-spreader When a 38-year-old man went to the emergency room at a hospital in Codogno, a small town in the Lodi province of Lombardy, with severe flu symptoms on Feb. 18, the case did not set off alarms.

The patient declined to be hospitalized and went home. He got sicker and returned to the hospital a few hours later and was admitted to a general medicine ward. On Feb. 20, he went into intensive care, where he tested positive for the virus.

The man, who became known as Patient One, had had a busy month. He attended at least three dinners, played soccer and ran with a team, all apparently while contagious and without heavy symptoms.

/quote

quote

But he also had not had any direct contacts with China, and experts suspect he contracted the virus from another European, meaning Italy did not have an identifiable patient zero or a traceable source of contagion that could help it contain the virus.

The virus had already been active in Italy for weeks by that time, experts now say, passed by people without symptoms and often mistaken for a flu. It spread around Lombardy, the Italian region that has by far the most trade with China and the home of Milan, the country’s most culturally vibrant and business-centered city. /quote

Rest as you can read in article comes down to an inconsistent message from Rome, local governments (like Milan) deciding the whole thing was nonsense and reopening for business so to speak, and now you are seeing the aftermath. The Covid-19 virus was in Italy and spreading; people went from prodromal phase of disease to actually becoming ill, and it is hitting hard.

You see other places including New York, California and elsewhere learning from this and locking things down tight, with ever more restrictions if things don't get better.

[quote]Isn't so much "Italians" as to why Italy is being slammed, but a series of missteps, errors and fact that that nation does not have a strong centralized government.

Italy was at the forefront. I doubt other countries would have acted differently.

The Italian government is especially useless and prone to corruption.

Italy has a very good health system, it's just not designed for pandemics though.

R178 I always laugh at that.

The US has lobbying. It's legalized corruption.

Probably the most corrupt country in the western world.

R177

Lombardy region of Italy has close ties with China, once Covid-19 became known there it shouldn't have taken a rocket scientist to be on look out for something arriving. When it did (Patient #1), again no one put two and two together.

Then came the usual squabbling between Rome and various local governments. Unification occurred in 1861 (or 1918 depending upon who you believe), but you'd almost never know it as the place behaves rather like a loose configuration of warring tribes.

As to OP's original query it does seem as if a majority of fatal outcomes are the elderly (of which Italy has many sadly), and or those with commodities.

Lombardy region needs to step up their game in terms of lock down, as does much of Italy. Lombardy need to also ramp up their hospital or other treatment options for those infected/ill.

[quote]Lombardy region of Italy has close ties with China,..

And Spain and France are neighbors with Italy.

Spain is already overwhelmed.

France is on the same path.

[quote]Lombardy need to also ramp up their hospital or other treatment options for those infected/ill.

You're a genius.

R181, Patient Zero in Italy most probably caught the virus in Munich. Italy was also one of the first countries to ban direct flights from China.

Italy didn't ban flights soon enough. There were daily direct flights between Milan and Wuhan for weeks before the shutdown.

R182 - Spain is a neighbor of Italy???

yes, I remember Italy said it wasn't necessary to shut all the borders. I thought to myself at that time that they were being stupid.

R186, R182 was posting from the 16th century.

So deaths are increasing despite lockdown over 2 weeks ago. Scary. It better come down in a week - otherwise the theory of reducing impact by isolating will seem less of a sure thing.

R189, the lockdown throughout the whole of Italy has only been for about a week and there have been plenty of cases of its violation. No one has said isolating is a sure thing, but it's currently the only thing.

And, r189, the deaths we're seeing now are of people who caught the virus over 2 weeks ago. In the town of Vo, which was one of the epidemic centres, they went on lockdown, did lots of testing and isolated anyone who was found to have the virus and have not had any new cases for some days now.

For the geographically challenged: yes, Spain is neighbor. Ask a Sardinian.

Definition of the word neighbor: "a person, country, or thing situated near another".

The West Mediterranean countries:

In Italy deaths and cases are actually slightly down today compared to yesterday.

That's not saying much r193, since yesterday saw a record number of deaths. Apparently Italy has another 3000 patients in critical condition, there will probably be a few hundred more critical cases before they restrictions fully pay off and new infections start to drop dramatically. I'd say Italy probably has at least another 2000 deaths before this is over for them.

R194 No, it's not saying much and who knows what tomorrow will bring, but Italians are searching for any bit of good news.

It's been in the headlines of every paper today.

"Frenano contagi e morti: oggi 3.957 nuovi casi (ieri 4.821), 651 vittime (ieri 793)"

From that perspective it is good news. As I said at r194, it seems (not that I'm an expert or anything, but just from looking at figures) that Italy could be getting to the end of the rise in new infections, but there is a backload, so to speak, of critical cases that will probably not recover and who will continue to make the headlines depressing for the next week or so. But after that things will get better, with the occasional second wave, but nothing as horrific as this first wave.

Whoever believes the 3200 deaths in China numbers from official Chinese sources must have a very low IQ.

[quote] For the first time I'm happy to see hot weather come. It got up to 87 where I live yesterday. If the virus doesn't do well in hot weather then bring on the upper 90s & 100s I say.

For the last time the weather has no effect on the virus.

R198 Warmer weather does have an effect.

"Warmer Weather May Slow, but Not Halt, Coronavirus"

3 million Italians got the regular flu in 2019. 240 people died. The death rate for Corona is proving to be much, much higher.

Unfortunately their death rate spiked up yesterday

Yeah - finally some studies to show heat and humidity DOES have a negative effect on CV virus - like the flu virus. Good news and cause for hope.

I'm reading the Italian newspaper "Il Fatto".

It is reporting 1,100 deaths in France.

That number sounds like it's way too low, R200. In the 2017/2018 flu season, 1.644 Danes died, and there are only 5.6 million of us.

WHO estimates that 650.000 people die of the flu every year world wide. So why are we panicking again?

The idiot mayor of Milan had a blindfolded Chinese guy standing in the middle of a busy square with a sign saying "hug me" in order to dispel fears. Many Italians hugged him. I'm sure that didn't turn out well.

That's crazy, R205. People are being told not to get close to others, but he wants them to hug a stranger so that they can prove they aren't racist? Social Justice Warriorism gone amok.

[quote]The idiot mayor of Milan had a blindfolded Chinese guy standing in the middle of a busy square with a sign saying "hug me" in order to dispel fears.

The Italian left is insane but that didn't happen.

It's the idiot mayor of Florence who suggested that Italians hug a Chinese person in a show of solidarity. Still nutty though.

That virtue singling stunt by mayor of Milan was done in early days of Covid-19 when it was still largely confined to China. No one knew or could have foretold what was coming down the pike it seems.

For those that don't already know this China and or Chinese own large swaths of Italy and that includes Milan. Bone headed move in hindsight as it may seem, mayor of Milan was looking for for his city's economic interests.

Also for what it's worth there is a huge pot of simmering resentment about China/the Chinese investment in Italy, especially arrival of so many who work in garment factories or otherwise tied to retail trade. Made in Italy/Milan used to mean Italians, but now it can and often does mean Chinese sweat shops. As you can imagine some native Italians put out of work by these events aren't too thrilled. It goes long way explaining why DT is rather popular in parts of Italy.

[quote]That virtue singling stunt by mayor of Milan was done in early days of Covid-19 when it was still largely confined to China. No one knew or could have foretold what was coming down the pike it seems.

Could you show a link to that? (see post 207) I wouldn't put it passed him, but I think you're confusing him with the mayor of Florence.

R207

Did a search as well and can only find link below. Don't have time atm but suspect a search done in Italian might produce better results.

It’s the tight pants, Rose.

Young Italians see their elderly relatives very regularly, unlike northern Europeans.

[quote]The idiot mayor of Milan had a blindfolded Chinese guy standing in the middle of a busy square with a sign saying "hug me" in order to dispel fears. Many Italians hugged him. I'm sure that didn't turn out well.

I speak Italian fluently. I can find no evidence of that having happened.

Anyway....Happy New Year from Italy.

R199/r202, warmer weather only appears to have a minimal impact and the virus is spreading in countries of the southern hemisphere that are in their summer period. Spain is also not a cold country.

R213, the fake stories of Italian mayors suggesting passers by hug a Chinese person are bs alt-right fake news.

[quote]Also for what it's worth there is a huge pot of simmering resentment about China/the Chinese investment in Italy, especially arrival of so many who work in garment factories or otherwise tied to retail trade.

Complain and you are labeled a racist. A multicultural Italy with no overriding Italian culture is the left's wet dream.

[quote]the fake stories of Italian mayors suggesting passers by hug a Chinese person are bs alt-right fake news.

No. You are wrong.

The idiotic lefty Mayor of Florence did very much encourage such a thing.

Italians have the highest life expectancy in the world. They also have the greatest health care system. Taking both of these facts into consideration, Americans should be really concerned about their own well-being when their life expectancy is much lower and they have a 3rd world health care system.

Well r217, the story about the Milan mayor getting a Chinese person to stand in the square with a sign saying "hug me" is fake bs alt-right fake news and, believe it or not, not all Chinese people have coronavirus.

What are the figures for Florence anyhow?

Who wouldn't want some big Italian cock pressed against them?

R218, many Americans - especially the right-wingers - aren't even taking this virus seriously yet.

[quote]Complain and you are labeled a racist. A multicultural Italy with no overriding Italian culture is the left's wet dream.

Honey, Italians are mutts thanks to invasions. They're a mixture of African and Semitic cultures.

R219 Nice deflection! The point is: you're wrong. The story is true, but it was the mayor of Florence not Milan.

The hilarious thing is, the idiot mayor of Florence who encouraged Italians to hug a chinese is in quarantine!

[quote]Italians have the highest life expectancy in the world.

Yes.

[quote]They also have the greatest health care system.

No.

In 2019, Italy's healthcare system was regarded, by World Health Organization's ranking, as the 2nd best in the world after France, and according to the World Health Organization, Italy has the world's 6th highest life expectancy.

[quote]Italy has the world's 6th highest life expectancy.

The UN ranks it 5th in the world.

2nd only to Switzerland among Western Countries.

The US is ranked 35th.

R197 truthfully, the Chinese seemed to be presenting the numbers very consistently and honestly. But the day Trump called it a “Chinese Virus” the numbers coming from China absolutely froze!!!

Ok r223, it was the mayor of Florence. The drive to extend this story to the mayor of Milan, and then make it even more elaborate, is part of the bs alt-right fake news campaign to blame the Chinese for the outbreak of coronavirus in Lombardy.

Do you think the mayor of Florence was infected (if he's infected) by a Chinese person, r223?

In any case, I thought the whole of Italy as well as much of Europe was in quarantine, so of course he's in quarantine, he has to be by law.

R227, I didn't realise there were so many Trumptards on here. Trump has also said that the coronavirus is nothing and it will pass soon enough. So, if the Chinese are to blame, they're not to blame for much.

[quote]In any case, I thought the whole of Italy as well as much of Europe was in quarantine, so of course he's in quarantine, he has to be by law.

R228 Why are you talking about things you know nothing about?

Nardella went into quarantine before the lockdown.

[quote] bs alt-right fake news campaign to blame the Chinese for the outbreak of coronavirus in Lombardy.

Do know ANYTHING about the ties between la Lombardia and Wuhan? You think it just happened there out of the blue?

The stupidity.

R230, the first coronaviruses case in Lombardia were transmitted locally by someone who had been infected in Germany. Italy banned direct flights from China as soon as the first cases appeared in Wuhan.

But thanks for proving my point that the fake story about the mayor of Milan putting a Chinese person in the square with a sign saying "hug me" is part of an effort to blame China for the outbreak in Lombardy.

Not the person you're talking to, R231, but the virus came from China, so blaming them is totally justified. Trump is a fucking know-nothing imbecile but I have zero problem with him calling it the Chinese virus. They really need to clean up their act on everything from imprisoning millions of innocent people in camps to driving the extinction of wild animals all of the world.

[quote]the first coronaviruses case in Lombardia were transmitted locally by someone who had been infected in Germany. Italy banned direct flights from China as soon as the first cases appeared in Wuhan.

You're wrong. You are rewriting history.

"On 31 January, the first two cases of COVID-19 were confirmed in Rome. A Chinese couple, originally from Wuhan, who had arrived in Italy on January 23 via Milan Malpensa Airport, travelled from the airport to Verona, then to Parma, arriving in Rome on 28 January. "

This couple landed in Milan (Lombardia). Then traveled to Verona (nearly at the border of Lombardia and one of the hardest hit regions) and then on to Parma (along with Lombardia the hardest hit region).

Then:

"On 6 February, an Italian repatriated from Wuhan tested positive for COVID-19, bringing the total number of cases in Italy to three.

The Italian that you are talking about traces his infection from China.

"the wife of the patient revealed he had met an Italian friend who had returned from China on 21 January, who subsequently tested negative. Later, the patient, his pregnant wife and a friend tested positive.

There are Republicans that say that they will vote for Bernie Sanders over Trump.

Every single Democrat will vote for Bernie Sanders over Trump.

Lots of Independents LOVE Bernie Sanders.

If Bernie Sander gets the Nomination from the DNC, we got this. Especially, if Elizabeth Warren is the VP.

PLEASE we have to get these Republicans (cough NAZIs) out of office.

[quote] Every single Democrat will vote for Bernie Sanders over Trump.

Wrong. I've been told by many Democrats they will NOT vote for Sanders.

Maybe a lot of them are older than in most countries? I do not want to vote fo

In America a lot of grandparents are raising their grand children,, because 20 and 30 year Olds are childlike.

R235, are those real-life Democrats or online Democrats? I've yet to hear that from a Democrat in-person, not when the choice is between Sanders and Trump.

Italians skew a bit older, and they tend to live in extended family homes where kids and old folks mingle together. That's not a good situation for this pandemic.

I love Italy. This is real bad for them.

Americans are completely fucked. Large country, high population, full of stupid, guns.

[QUOTE] They really need to clean up their act on everything from imprisoning millions of innocent people in camps to driving the extinction of wild animals all of the world.

They've just banned the consumption of meat from 'wild animals'.

Sanders is so fucking old. Can't you guys do better?

there must be some loopholes in the ban...

why Italy so high? Why young doctors/nurses dying?

"To explain COVID-19 CRF vary by region, people invoke selection effects, differing strain severity, medical services overload.

"But my guess of biggest effect: IT'S THE DOSE DUMMY. Dose/deaths high if catch at home via family, low if via train station handrail."

I was thinking repeated exposure too. Healthcare workers are exposed repeatedly,

[quote]They really need to clean up their act on everything from imprisoning millions of innocent people in camps to driving the extinction of wild animals all of the world.

Wishful thinking. The Chinese are never, ever going to change. And the rest of the world will have to deal with it.

Eventually some superbug will come out of their filthy behaviors and eating of every animal they can get their hands on and will wipe us all out. Coronavirus is just a warmup.

[quote]Honey, Italians are mutts thanks to invasions. They're a mixture of African and Semitic cultures.

Oh Christ, not this again. The African and Semitic admixture is not prevalent among most Italians. Sure they have mixed ancestry, as do all people, but to call them all mutts is not accurate.

R247, like most white Americans I'm a total mutt, with known ancestors from most of the nations of Europe, Russia, and the middle east.

You say "mutt" like it's a bad thing.

They deliberately called spaghetti sauce " gravy."

not sure why people care about a patient zero. This isn't HIV. It's rampantly infectious with casual contact.

Wash your hands, stop touching your face and nose.

Why such a high death rate aMong healthcare workers?

Healthcare workers are being consistently exposed...I really don't know but that's what I have heard..same thing in China.

The Italians have a high infection rate among those who don't drain their pasta.

It's a breeding ground for the virus and bad cooking.

I just read that 9 out of 10 Italians in the north of Italy die of Covid before receiving treatment. That would explain why so many are dying compared to elsewhere.

I also read an article that links Italy's massive use of antibiotics in their pork industry to the high death toll. Apparently, the high use of antibiotics are the cause of resistant bacteria having developed and taken up residence in all of Italy's hospitals. When doctors are administering antibiotics now to prevent bacterial infections in Covid patients, those antibiotics could be worthless because of the resistant bacteria.

Oh God, R254, I forgot about antibacterial resistance. Maybe COVID-19 is just a dress rehearsal for a much bigger crisis.

^ I mean antiBIOTIC resistance!

[quote] not sure why people care about a patient zero. This isn't HIV. It's rampantly infectious with casual contact.

How’s it any different though? Why should we care about patient zero for one and not the other?

Covid is a virus, antibiotics are useless. "Antibiotic resistance" does not apply to a virus.

R254 = example of why America is so poorly informed and manipulated. When “news” comes from random commenters on websites like Breitabrt, Fox - or DL. Who needs journalism?

r259 people getting all their news from Facebook is one of the worst things that's ever happened. I can't believe some of the posts I get in my Facebook feed. People who reject anything that reputable medical professionals and scientists have to say, but some crackpot idiot who has a ten minute video on Facebook explaining how Covid-19 is not "that serious" or how oxidation therapy can "cure" the Covid 19 virus and they're all over it like flies on shit. It's insane. I've had to unfriend a few people (they weren't close friends anyway) because I couldn't take it anymore and it was making me too flustered to read their bullshit.

Uh, both those stories are from reputable media outlets. My, don't you both look stupid now. The reason I didn't link them is because they aren't in english.

The antibiotics aren't used against the virus itself, R258, but against infections that arise when the patients are being treated with oxygen.

Google translate the article if you want.

There should be a national movement about getting your news from Facebook. Turn it off!

Turn It Off!

A researcher on Reddit thinks the high death rates in Italy and Spain vs. Norway may correlate to the types of flu vaccines used in those countries. Link below is his article on ResearchGate—it's a preprint, meaning it hasn't been peer-reviewed yet.

This made me feel a lot better, R264, thanks! I was in Italy all winter and did have the quadrivalent vaccine, which predicts better outcomes for Covid-19 victims.

R261, I read that article you linked with Google Translate. It sounds highly speculative and the author has just published a book about bacteria and perhaps sees this as an opportunity to promote his book and himself. I looked him up, he isn't a scientist but has a degree in drama and a Masters in political science. He's making lots of statements about microbes and direct comparisons between Italy and Norway while ignoring the fact that the population of Italy skews much older than the population of Norway and is also much, much larger. He's making a lot of leaps between what he thinks is the overuse of antibiotics in Italy to people dying of coronavirus. Yes, we should be much more careful about how we use antibiotics but I'm not convinced of his claims here.

So forlorn:

In France, as well as in Italy, to test people for Covid 19 they get them a scann, it goes faster and it's more accurate than regular test. Something that USA will never be able to afford, people would end up bankrupt fast.

Have people in Norway continued to have a lot of kids R266? I'm trying to figure out why they'd have a higher birthrate than Catholic, poorer Italy -- otherwise, how have they kept their population average so young? High immigration?

^^ Immigration, of course!

Italy (pop. 60.4 Mil) Wuflu (28 Mar):

Infected: 86,498

Deaths: 9,134

Recovered: 10,950

An article on the possible cause of the exponential spread in the North of Italy.

I also heard that the Milanese team then played against the Barça and that could have been a possibility on how it struck ground in Spain

From an epidemiological standpoint it appears that Italy is testing people who demonstrate serious symptoms. When that happens you’re going to get a higher percentage of case fatality rate. The actual CFR will emerge as testing expands to individuals with mild symptoms or those who are asymptomatic. This will provide scientists with an accurate, final number. As it stands now based upon data from Germany, South Korea, New York, Japan, Taiwan, basically places where more widespread testing had been implemented, the CFR is around 1%. With even greater rates of testing to come, the projected CFR is now somewhere in the range of 0.5%-1%. If this holds then that would make COVID-19 between 5-10 times more deadly than the seasonal flu. Well under CFRs of MERS and SARS but still serious given it is a novel virus that is easily communicable.

Italy is fucked, > 10k Covid-19 deaths so far and it looks like they are going into full lock down.

They're dying of all sorts of things, but if they have the virus, that is blamed as the cause.

R275 The German video is bullshit. Lobbies are empty but not hospital rooms. No one is allowed to wait in the lobby.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]