Who are the 10+ most influential/successful White female artist of the 20th century?

What? No Loretta on your list?

Ethel Merman

Mary Martin

Barbara Cook

Karen Morrow

Susan Johnson

I dunno, maybe Madonna?

Have you heard of her?

r1 I considered it among others but like I said, I’m not really sure. Aren’t names like EmmyLou Harris and Reba bigger in the country world? Dusty Springfield and Linda Rondstadt also came to mind.

r3 I named her snarky guy

What's the point of this thread? You already answered your question in your original post

r6 Thank you

Dunno about most influential but my top 10 faves are Dusty Springfield, kd Lang, Peggy Lee, Chrissie Hynde, Karen Carpenter, Sandy Denny, Joni Mitchell, Kate Bush, Amy Winehouse (then Janis Joplin, Bjork, Rumer, Duffy, Adele, Julie London, Helen Shapiro, Patsy Cline, Nico, Joan Baez, Liz Fraser, Tracey Thorn, June Tabor, Evie Sands, Katie Melhua, Mina and that Italian American woman with a huge voice that sang 'I'm Hurt'.) Vanilla, right?

Timi Yuro

[R8] What was I thinking? Mama Cass Elliot has to be in my top 10.

Any list that doesn't include Connie Francis shouldn't be taken seriously.

I can’t take a list of Connie Francis all that seriously. Who else?

R11 Absolutely correct! Connie was a major force for females, as well in general.

[quote] the top 3-4 most impactful

***CRINGE***

Its a good list but if you want to go back to the earlier time periods, like how you said jazz age to now, I would also include Kate Smith, Ethel Merman, The Andrews Sisters, Maybelle and Sarah Carter, Jeanette MacDonald, Sophie Tucker, Kitty Wells, Peggy Lee, etc...

Celine Dion should be in the list.

r16 Celine is the 2nd highest selling female artist of all time but far all of her success, her career feels incredibly insignificant. I can think of one big name female artist the list her as a primary influence, she has no significant cultural impact, and she doesn’t have critical acclaim. My Heart Will Go On is her only big Pop culture moment. She’s the Frankenstein monster created from worst aspects of 90s AC and Pop. So yeah, I decided not to add her to the list

Patsy Cline had a tremendous influence on female singers in many different genres.

OP, I assume by "female artist" you mean musical artist.

Madonna should absolutely be on the list because she changed the game for female acts. No matter how you feel about her, she raised the bar, broke the rules, and wrote the playbook on how to be a mega successful recording artist.

I don't know about Celine Dion. Whitney and Mariah influenced generations of female singers to do all those runs, whoops, vocal falsettos, belting, melismas, and whistle notes. Oversinging is what we used to call it, and Celine, Christina A, and Ariana Grande are simply W&M's disciples.

Patsy, yes. Loretta Lynn, yes. Dusty, Joni, Carole King, yes.

Just out of interest, why did you not say “musical” artist, I thought this was a very different thread when I first started reading it?

I wonder whether Dolly Parton makes it to the list, as a songwriter as much as a performer, like Carole King.

[quote]I can probably do the same for White women from the 1970s and on but it’s a bit of struggle. Anything pre-1970 is a blur.

Most influential: The Boswell Sisters

They were the first real female recording stars. And the greatest female jazz act for their time.

Ella Fitzgerald learned from Connie Boswell: "My mother brought home one of her records, and I fell in love with it....I tried so hard to sound just like her."

And Marion Harris. She really created the modern female vocalist.

This is from 1918. She was ahead of everyone.

Connie Boswell...as you can hear, her style is what influenced Ella

The heavenly Peggy Seeger

Kathe Kolowitz

Georgia Okeefe

Frieda Kahlo

Louise Bourgeois

Cindy Sherman

...

In the 1960s, Streisand was on the top of every list. By the 70s, she wasn't on any list as an innovator or influencer. It ticked me off, but by the 70s, Babs was dated.

[Quote] In the 1960s, Streisand was on the top of every list

Not on the Hot 100, she wasn't. She only had a few big hits prior to "Stoney End."

R27, you nitwit, I am referring to Streisand being on lists as a great new star, an innovator, an influencer - NOT the cockamamie Top 20, Top 50, Top100 fucking selling record lists. Is English your first language?

Cockamamie? We have Annie Wilkes on the DL. It stands to reason, I suppose.

(Best selling is an indicator of success, influence etc., which is in the thread title...)

She was never a marquee name but Ellie Greenwich's voice (and the songs she wrote, mostly with ther then husband Jeff Barry) is woven through much of 1960s pop.

R29 = another dumbass who doesn't understand the difference between quality and sales. .

Connie Francis for sure.

R29

Streisand won Grammys, Emmys, an Oscar.... starred in major films with her name above the title, starred on Broadway with her name above the title, recorded critically acclaimed albums, had the most lucrative Las Vegas contract, was the first pop star to hold her own concert in Central Park, had three one-woman TV specials ...all of that, before she was 30 years old.

Would you please name any other star, male or female in the history of entertainment who can come close to that?

Name them.

Thanks in advance.

Forgot to mention, also a Tony (In 1970 before she was 30).

Barbra is definitely an older person's celebrity. I'm Gen X and she's never meant shit to us. It's the Boomer queens who really worship her.

[quote]Barbra is definitely an older person's celebrity. I'm Gen X and she's never meant shit to us. It's the Boomer queens who really worship her.

The thread title says: " Who are the 10+ most influential/successful White female artist of the 20th century?"

It's not about who was popular with your age group.

Truly lovely list, R8.

Tracey Thorn has been a big influence on artists as far ranging as Nirvana and Courtney Love (both loved Tracey's early band The Marine Girls) to The xx.

Younger artists have taken inspiration from Thorn, Alison Moyet, Kirsty MacColl, et al.

R33, I agree that Streisand was an influencer - as much, actually, as The Beatles were in the 1960s. However, I detest people who qualify that by listing awards. An influencer is an innovator, a trend setter. BTW, The Beatles never swept the Grammys when they were a group, does that mean they never influenced any one, any other group? HA!

[quote]However, I detest people who qualify that by listing awards.

Detest? Mary!

Read the thread title: "most influential/successful". Note the word "successful"

Streisand's award list during the first decade of her career is a testament to her success.

How the hell could Streisand be as influential as the Beatles? In the 1960s, the average young person could only afford singles. The youth bought Beatles singles by the bucketload. And, where possible, they stretched to buying the Beatles' albums. Streisand was no force on the pop singles charts. Her 1960s career was built on Broadway and standards, which would become mostly obsolete as a cultural force by the 1970s. (See also the decline of the supperclub/cabaret scene.) Streisand certainly carved a niche but few recording artists have attempted to follow that niche. Why would they? Recording artists need hit singles when they're starting out. There isn't a Streisand or a Nancy Wilson type nowadays. Streaming has made "the album" something of much lesser importance. A precious few still have hit albums (Adele etc.)

Well, it's easy to tell you went around in the 1960s or you simply know nothing about the era.

[quote]How the hell could Streisand be as influential as the Beatles? In the 1960s, the average young person could only afford singles.

The Beatles sold massive numbers of albums. "In the U.S., the album debuted at No. 1 on the album chart. It sold 4,045,174 copies by December 31, 1964"

[quote]Streisand was no force on the pop singles charts. Her 1960s career was built on Broadway and standards, which would become mostly obsolete as a cultural force by the 1970s.

All through the 1960s Broadway (and Hollywood film) was still producing HUGE hit songs. From Louis Armstrong's massive hit with "Hello Dolly", (toppling the Beatles from the charts) to the multiple hit songs from "Hair" at the end of the decade.

"People" was a B'Way show tune and one of the songs of the decade.

[quote]Streisand certainly carved a niche but few recording artists have attempted to follow that niche. Why would they?

The cool, glamorous evening gown glad songstress singing sophisticated tunes was a bit outré when Streisand came along. She (along with Dionne Warwick) revived the genre.

By 1965 you suddenly had Dusty Springfield, Petula Clark, Diana Ross all dressed to the nines with adult sophisticated glam...quite a difference from the early '60s "teen" singers like Brenda Lee. Peggy March, Annette, Connie Francis etc.

Streisand had a huge impact on the 60s. It was a counterpoint to the Beatles, the British invasion and rock.

[quote]Recording artists need hit singles when they're starting out. There isn't a Streisand or a Nancy Wilson type nowadays. Streaming has made "the album" something of much lesser importance. A precious few still have hit albums (Adele etc.)

I don't know what your point his here.

HAIR is pop-rock, dear. But you know that. Broadway was dying as a cultural force in the 1960s. That's why scores like HAIR happened in the first place. "Hello, Dolly", or Edie Whatserface's Easy Listening hit of "If He Walked Into My Life" (Where did Barbra's "Where Am I Going?" chart? Hm?) don't change that fact. You'll be pointing to Streisands smash hit of "Memory" next.

[Quote] I don't know what your point his here.

The point is that Streisand started out as an albums artist. Take "My Coloring Book" - that did better for Sandy Stewart, but Streisand nevertheless sold albums despite scoring very little as a singles artist. I can't think of a young artist who is making few waves with singles BUT succeeding with album sales (or streams). Therefore, there's no Streisand type at the moment (or a Nancy Wilson, another albums artist who had little success on the singles charts in the 1960s).

Thus, how influential was Streisand? She wasn't the first singer turned movie star. Other women moved into directing or producing. Streisand had a lot of success, no doubt. But her career path hasn't been as influential as one might think by simply listing awards or album sales.

[Quote] The Beatles sold massive numbers of albums. "In the U.S., the album debuted at No. 1 on the album chart. It sold 4,045,174 copies by December 31, 1964"

You left out the full quote. Why would you do that?

[Quote] And, where possible, they stretched to buying the Beatles' albums

The Beatles and other "teen" favoured acts did more for the album format than Streisand or other pre rock / "classic pop" singers. They paved the way for AOR, all the 1970s acts. Does Linda Ronstadt or Olivia Newton John owe their success to Streisand? I would say no. Does Madonna ower her success to Streisand (maybe her directing career...)? There's no doubt that the magnitude of Streisand's commercial success may have been inspiring but the content....? Has any musician since Streisand's heyday talked about trying to get a "Barbra Streisand feel" to a track they're working on in the 1990s, the 2000s or beyond? Streisand was of no importance to rock, country, folk, r&B, electro, not even disco outside of her Donna Summer duet... Streisand's career mostly existed in parallel to those genres. She's an anomaly, basically.

You don't get it. It's way over your head.

Anyone who says silly know-nothing things like "In the 1960s, the average young person could only afford singles.", really understands nothing about the 60s.

Success/ influence: It's NOT about the "charts", it's about cultural impact.

Diana Ross wanted Streisand's career. Cass Elliot wanted to sing like Barbra. Linda Ronstadt and Carly Simon came out with albums of standards with Barbra as their model.

Again I ask: please list the artists who can compare to Streisand's first decade career in theatre, film, albums, concerts, television. (THAT'S cultural impact)

I'm still waiting.

[Quote] Success/ influence: It's NOT about the "charts", it's about cultural impact

I referenced cultural impact. Ariana Grande guests at a Streisand concert but is she performing Streisand numbers in her own concert or at radio sessions? No. That speaks to the limits of Streisand's cultural impact.

R44 There are plenty of artists who have had a huge impact on the corse of popular music...iconic historical figures....whose style is of no interest today. But their cultural impact cannot be denied.

Who wants to sound like Bill Haley? Or Jerry Lee Lewis?

[Quote] Linda Ronstadt and Carly Simon came out with albums of standards with Barbra as their model.

False. Standards was THE thing to do for pop singers when recording an album in the early (e.g. The Beatles' version of "Til There Was You"), through the mid 1960s. It was not out of the ordinary for a Broadway singer, like Streisand, to record an album of standard in the 1960s. It WAS out of the ordinary for singer to do so in the 1980s. Hell, it was out of the ordinary for Harry Nilsson to do it in the early 1970s. Are you suggesting Nilsson took inspiration from Streisand?

[Quote] Who wants to sound like Bill Haley? Or Jerry Lee Lewis?

You can absolutely find revivalist types that favour a "wild" style like Jerry Lee Lewis'

Bill Haley's impact has not extended beyond "Rock Around the Clock." Chuck Berry's has. Haley might as well have been Pat Boone.

A key part of enduring cultural impact is that younger people (re-)discover the music. Harry Styles just covered Peter Gabriel on Howard Stern. His album apes people like Steve Winwood. These are examplars of (pop) cultural impact being renewed. Streisand doesn't have really that.

[quote]It was not out of the ordinary for a Broadway singer, like Streisand, to record an album of standard in the 1960s.

What WAS out of the ordinary was having albums of standards that sold. "My Name Is Barbra" reached number two on the charts. As did "My Name Is Barbra, Two"

Yes, she made it safe for others to follow with albums...not just singles... of the classics.

If albums of standards didn't sell in the early 1960s, why did so many singers make them? Why did Streisand abandon that route? Because her sales dipped. It wasn't safe for her to continue.

R49 Don't move the goal posts.

Cultural innovations build on one another. Groundwork is laid, progresses changes, mutates.

No one wants to sound like Bill Haley or Chuck Berry today....but they (along with others) are the foundation rock and their cultural impact, their importance is undisputed.

[quote]If albums of standards didn't sell in the early 1960s, why did so many singers make them?

You had Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Dean Martin, Dinah Washington older "adult" singers.

But Streisand at 20 years old, made it cool again. And fun a new audience for them.

Please name one young singer that made albums of standards in the early '60s.

List them please.

Thanks in advance.

....

R40, dearest, there were other markets besides "youth" and teenagers. They had mucho dinero and you always buy $2.5-3 LPs in mono at Korvettes. God, WHY do you idiots not understand that not everyone was under 21???

Ronnie Wood of the Rolling Stones recently held a Chuck Berty concert in the UK. Imelda May, a rockabilly revivalist who has done very well in the UK was one of the guest vocalists. There's a Chuck Berry album to go with it. It's probably not a coincidence that these are UK artists. The UK has always feted American talent in a way that America doesn't. "No Country For Old Men [Or Women]" indeed.

[Quote] dearest, there were other markets besides "youth" and teenagers. They had mucho dinero and you always buy $2.5-3 LPs in mono at Korvettes. God, WHY do you idiots not understand that not everyone was under 21???

If you don't catch the youth, your cultural impact doesn't get renewed. Kate Smith was a big star for decades. But she belongs to her time in a way that, say, Ella Fitzgerald doesn't.

Bobby Darin did a lot of standards, beginning with his second album "That's All." He even has big hit singles with them, whereas Streisand didn't. Streisand did not invent, nor even renew, "young singer sings standards."

Johnny Mathis was still in his twenties in the early 1960s. He wasn't recording standards?

[quote]Streisand did not invent, nor even renew, "young singer sings standards."

No other young women was doing albums of standards in the 1960s before her. And those albums were box office hits.

Is Kurt Weil considered standards in 1962? Georgie Brown recorded an album of Weil in 1962.

Aretha's second album, from 1962, looks chock full of standards... "Look for the Silver Lining," "God Bless the Child," "How Deep Is the Ocean?", "Lover Come Back to Me"...

Georgie Brown ? ArethaFranklin in 1962? None of them were known to the masses. None of those albums we're hits.

And Bobby Darrin's recording of "Mack the Knife" was a jazzy reinterpretation.

Barbra in her early 20s was singing "Happy Days Are Here Again" and "People" in classic torch-song style and turning them into hits.

A complete contrast to what young female singers were charting with at the time.

*were hits

(and sorry Miss Brown for the typo...)

Cher . Just plain Cher.

I'll mention the under-appreciated and mostly forgotten Laura Nyro. She was a revelation in the late 1960s. The Fifth Dimension made many of their hits off of her songs. And Miss Barbra Streisand also sang one of her songs, "Stoney End."

Laura Nyro was incredible, I prefer her over Joni Mitchell.

The late Phoebe Snow is another great songwriter and singer whose talent is sorely missed.

[quote]Streisand did not invent, nor even renew, "young singer sings standards."

It's 1967. The height of Rock. The height of Psycodelia. The Hippie movement.

And Barbra Streisand dressed in High Fashion, gowns, make up and hair, packs Central Park....135,000 people... singing "Cry Me a River", "Second Hand Rose", "Happy Days Are Here Again", "He Touched Me", "I Can See It"...all sung in straight classic style with NO nod to the trendy sounds of the time.

Laura Nyro wrote (and also recorded) "Wedding Bell Blues," made popular by The Fifth Dimension. Even though you might consider their version to be the definitive one, Laura gives it a raw edge not found in their rendition.

"People" was a standard? You're not keeping to your own parameters.

[Quote] And Barbra Streisand dressed in High Fashion, gowns, make up and hair, packs Central Park....135,000 people... singing "Cry Me a River", "Second Hand Rose", "Happy Days Are Here Again", "He Touched Me", "I Can See It"...all sung in straight classic style with NO nod to the trendy sounds of the time.

And yet she'd soon be singing "Alfie" (to no great success) because standards were passe... And she really gave in when she sang about "the good book Jesus."

That print ad for Nyro's "Wedding Bell Blues" is hilarious. They were trying to attract people with that?

[quote]If you don't catch the youth, your cultural impact doesn't get renewed. Kate Smith was a big star for decades. But she belongs to her time in a way that, say, Ella Fitzgerald doesn't.

It doesn't matter.

No one wants to sound like Bing Crosby today. He sounds dated, he sounds of his time. Sort of silly now.

But he was an innovator, he changed pop music by using the microphone as an instrument, singing intimately, emphasizing phrasing. He set the style for what followed.

If you have no musical culture, you're not going to understand the roots of popular music. But that's your problem.

Tell that to Michael Buble. Even Seth Macfarlane got in on the crooning act.

[Quote] It doesn't matter.

Of course it matters. Culture has to be passed down. The young have to engage with the old. And certain types don't find favor with the young. It is what is. Enjoy what you like but don't inflate your favorite's significance.

[quote]"People" was a standard?

Let's instead put it this way: it is certainly in the tradition of the Great American Song Book. And it's writer Jule Styne wrote plenty of them.

She's ecchy now, and has been for decades, but Streisand was a huge PERSONALITY in the 60s. She sang like no one else, she talked like no one else, she looked like no one else. Singers wanted to sing in her style; pages and pages were written about her style (singing and personality), critics fell over themselves with over-praise of her talents. The only way I can describe it to you youngsters is that Streisand was a BIG thing, yes, just like the Beatles were a big thing beyond the music. She broke all the rules and created her own. It was a breath of much needed fresh air in show business and adult pop music. Dionne Warwick and the like were not on the same planet. This changed rapidly when Streisand moved on and made her movie debut, but you get the picture. It was pretty incredible.

22 year old Babs with wig and padded push up bra on the cover of LIFE in 1964:

Nevertheless, she still failed to connect with an important segment of the public. The dismal chart placings between "People" and "Stoney End" (two big hit singles) reflect that, which had a knock on effect on her lasting cultural impact.

R80 = doesn't get it and doesn't appreciate it. Must be a millennial.

[Quote] doesn't get it and doesn't appreciate it.

She was very successful, no doubt. But OP asked about most influential. And someone claimed that she was the equivalent of the Beatles. She wasn't. To point that out is not an attack on what she was able to achieve.

[quote]Nevertheless, she still failed to connect with an important segment of the public

Oh really.

After Stoney End, she wasn't making any more recordings that were connecting "with an important segment of the public" ?

INFLUENTIAL?

Successful?

STEVIE NICKS.

Laura Nyro stated that she was influenced by Connie Francis.

Every new female of the last 30 years lists Stevie Nicks as a major influence.

R46..Buy Araina performs Connie Francis songs...and badly I might add.

[Quote] After Stoney End, she wasn't making any more recordings that were connecting "with an important segment of the public" ?

She was connecting with the Easy Listening demographic. And more power to her. But that demographic has done nothing for her lasting significance. The two Laura Nyro follow ups went to #52 (#3 AC) and #82 (#7 AC). "Where You Lead", already known from Carole King's massively successful TAPESTRY, went to #40. She only had 3 other big hit singles in the 1970s.

[quote]She was connecting with the Easy Listening demographic.

And her hits with the BeeGees and Donna Summer?

[quote]has done nothing for her lasting significance.

You don't understand what "lasting sigificance" means in popular culture.

"A case for Barbra Streisand as the most revolutionary of performers"

I can’t stand Barbra. There, I said it. Her total self-consciousness, the relentless ‘look at me' show-tune delivery. The horrible Julie Andrews style over-enunciation. The ugly nasal timbre. The artificial phrasing and obvious emphases. Basically her unintelligence as a singer and lack of natural talent. She's a plodder.

r89

Your article lost me with:

[Quote] You could say that Adele is the Streisand of our time, a performer who has the same stratospheric vocal talent Streisand has

[Quote] And her hits with the BeeGees and Donna Summer?

Are you suggesting that Streisand is an important name in the disco genre? Or that dance music gave her career a new, lasting dimension?

Streisand was an album artist who sold a HUGE amount of records back in the '60s and '70s and even up to the '80s. While she had the occasional singles hit, which were usually bigger on the Adult Contemporary chart than the Hot 100, she didn't sell a lot of records to kids. She is still one of the most successful female singers of all time, and I'm not even a big fan. I do like the Nyro-influenced rock records she made in the early '70s.

[Quote] she didn't sell a lot of records to kids.

And there's my point. When her core audience dies, there aren't a significant amount of young people who will replace them and keep her "alive" as a cultural figure in music. That's not the case with, say, Freddie Mercury and Queen, who do very well on streaming.

Mary Cassatt (d. 1926)

Freddy Mercury and Queen spent A LOT of years in the wilderness in the USA until his death r94.

All of the artists mentioned would be nobodies without Jewish music producers. Let that simmer for a while...

[Quote] Freddy Mercury and Queen spent A LOT of years in the wilderness in the USA until his death [R94].

And that contradicts their enduring relevance in 2020?

[Quote] All of the artists mentioned would be nobodies without Jewish music producers. Let that simmer for a while...

Owen Bradley was Jewish? Reggie Lucas? Stephen Bray? Babyface? Didn't Joni Mitchell producer herself?

*produce

Those producers are just what the public sees, the real ones are the Jewish ones they don’t see. You think Babyface had money to produce anything? Doubtful.

Beyonce and her high yella self

[Quote] the real ones are the Jewish ones they don’t see.

Oh, you mean like Morris Levy, who put his name on songs as a songwriter and fucked actual songwriters out of their rightfully owed royalties? Oh, okay.

[quote]And there's my point. When her core audience dies, there aren't a significant amount of young people who will replace them and keep her "alive" as a cultural figure in music.

Wrong.

Of course no one under the age of 30 knows or cares who she is.

Of course what's left of her core audience will be dying off soon enough.

We know all of that. No one can deny that.

But her contributions to the history of pop music, the doors she opened, the culture she helped change....remain.

I loathe Connie Francis. Loathe the crappy songs she sung. Loath her excruciatingly saccharine singing style. But it's not about me.

No one can deny that she is one of the important figures in pop music as the first white solo female to record rock. Anyone who knows anything about the history of pop music knows that. The same can be said for Brenda Lee. Same for Streisand. These were pioneers in their genre.

Your argument is really coming from such an unsophisticated, childish view.

Continued:

Furthermore the thread title is: "Who are the 10+ most influential/successful White female artist of the 20th Century"

It's not "Who is your favorite White female artist of the 20th Century"

[Quote] the first white solo female to record rock.

You have to be fucking kidding.

[Quote] Your argument is really coming from such an unsophisticated, childish view.

No, it's not. I'm talking about continued influence. That's an aspect you may not want to touch. I'm not wrong for discussing it. And I haven't denied any of what Streisand was able to accomplish. I say her commercial success outweighs her influence. She is not comparable to the Beatles, in that sense. Or Elton John. Or Queen. Or even singers that predate her, like Ella Fitzgerald or Peggy Lee.

True, r94. When Barbra's core audience dies (which will apparently be next month) she's not going to have much of a fanbase among younger generations. She'll probably be like Ethel Merman or Kate Smith, two enormously popular entertainers in their time, but they never had an impact on younger generations and are only half-remembered today.

[Quote] No one can deny that she is one of the important figures in pop music as the first white solo female to record rock. Anyone who knows anything about the history of pop music knows that. The same can be said for Brenda Lee. Same for Streisand. These were pioneers in their genre.

Again, no one is denying their commercial success. But Francis, for instance, became a joke by the 1970s (See SCTV's Connie Franklin). It may upset you, but that sort of thing is pertinent to assessing an artist's influence.

[quote]Of course no one under the age of 30 knows or cares who she is.

30? How about 50.

Gen X has never been big on Streisand.

[quote]Again, no one is denying their commercial success. But Francis, for instance, became a joke by the 1970s (See SCTV's Connie Franklin). It may upset you, but that sort of thing is pertinent to assessing an artist's influence.

Are you able to read?

I wrote "I loathe Connie Francis. Loathe the crappy songs she sung. Loath her excruciatingly saccharine singing style. But it's not about me."

Furthermore: she was not a not a joke by the 1970s.

She was a joke by around 1967.

But you really, really don't get it.

Nobody has any idea who the fuck Connie Francis was.

[quote]I say her commercial success outweighs her influence. She is not comparable to the Beatles, in that sense. Or Elton John. Or Queen. Or even singers that predate her, like Ella Fitzgerald or Peggy Lee.

That's because you're uninformed.

[Quote] But you really, really don't get it.

I've been quite clear. r108 gets my point. You don't. Fine. You likely don't WANT to get it. Whatever.

[Quote] That's because you're uninformed.

I'm absolutely not. Streisand is beloved by theatre queens and/or old people. That demographic has served her well. But she hasn't endured in the mainstream.

Carol King

[quote]Nobody has any idea who the fuck Connie Francis was.

We KNOW that.

God the stupidity on this thread.

[Quote] Furthermore: she was not a not a joke by the 1970s.

[Quote] She was a joke by around 1967.

If she was a joke by 1967, then she was a joke by the 1970s. You're splitting hairs.

Joan Baez

[quote]That demographic has served her well. But she hasn't endured in the mainstream.

R115 Still doesn't understand the thread title.

Gen X here and Barbra Streisand has never been a thing with my generation, with us it was all about Madonna. She's absolutely prehistoric to Millennials. It's the Boomers who really worshiped her.

[Quote] Still doesn't understand the thread title.

"Influential." Look it up.

[Quote] Gen X here and Barbra Streisand has never been a thing with my generation, with us it was all about Madonna. She's absolutely prehistoric to Millennials. It's the Boomers who really worshiped her.

Stop talking facts. Barbra wore a gown in Central Park. That's what really matters.

"The Enduring Legacy of Barbra Streisand"

[quote]Nobody has any idea who the fuck Connie Francis was.

Poor Connie Francis. She's still alive by the way. The peak of her fame was perhaps from 1958 to 1963, and she was everywhere, on pop radio stations, movies, and tv. But she was done in by the British invasion, and overnight her style and sound, sounded dated.

She did, however, sing in many different languages and different genres, so she was quite versatile, like Nana Mouskouri.

She was influential in terms of being pretty much the only big selling female solo artist from that era.

^^ I apologize for the superfluous commas. I didn't realize I did that.

[Quote] Her first album came out in 1963—when, as she tells the audience, a “tweet was what a bird did”— right before the upheaval of the later part of that decade, and the explosion of rock and roll made crooners like her seem uncool to many, but cherished by some

I... wouldn't have posted that article, if I were trying to make your point, r124.

R121, you other simps: Gen X (1967) here and have been a Streisand mega fan since as I was a gayling. Always will be, so suck it poseurs.

R79 put it best: Streisand and The Beatles are almost on another plane of stardom AND influence as they went "beyond" their pop successes: Making movies, giving high-profile interviews, being politically engaged. Those all increased their cultural significance,

Harry Belafonte made movies, gave high-profile interviews, was politically engaged. He's had little lasting influence as a musician, though.

Anyone who exists on film will never have to gain a new audience, they'll always be "alive."

Jo Stafford

Streisand was huge in the sixties, the seventies, the eighties and up until the mid nineties. After that she has pretty much coasted on her legendary status even though she manages to get number 1 albums and sellout tours.

It would be difficult to explain the magnitude of her stardom to anyone that didn’t live through the first decade and especially the second decade of that stardom. The only person I can think of that had that much influence and awe would be Michael Jackson. What may have made Michael a bigger and maybe more influential star was his treatment in the tabloids. A lot of the great stars from Elizabeth Taylor to Madonna have had there stardom boosted by their notoriety in the tabloids and media. Elizabeth was just living and Madonna was trying to shock.

Barbra has always tried to avoid that kind of notoriety. Her problem may be that she doesn’t court the media or that she stopped acting regularly in films. She hasn’t been able to find a way to connect with today’s younger audience. Hopefully one day she will. I was only able to experience the magnitude of her stardom in the early seventies. My first day of junior high school ( in the inner city) my home room teacher introduces herself to the class and she writes her name on the blackboard and spells it BARBRA. She says Barbra like Barbra Streisand and I was like who? She took the class to see “Hello Dolly” on the big screen and from then on we knew who Barbra was.

The kids that don’t know her today would be surprised To know that their idols know who she is. I was watching an old clip of “What’s My Line” from the sixties and the mystery guest was Lauren Bacall. One of the panelists asked “Are you Barbra Streisand?” It shocked me because I forgot what a big star she was in that period.

Her voice and stylings are so unique and legendary that nobody can sound like her but they have all tried to emulate that multi-media career of combining music and films but nobody has done it as seamlessly and consistently as Barbra.

[Quote] She hasn’t been able to find a way to connect with today’s younger audience. Hopefully one day she will.

I had a dream last night! There was a big poster of a mother and daughter...

Florence Foster Jenkins.

[quote]Streisand was huge in the sixties, the seventies, the eighties and up until the mid nineties. After that she has pretty much coasted on her legendary status even though she manages to get number 1 albums and sellout tours.

What other American recording stars still working today have had a career as long? Her first charting recording was in 1963.

Diana Ross!

[quote]She hasn’t been able to find a way to connect with today’s younger audience. Hopefully one day she will.

Of course she'll find a way to connect with today’s younger audience.

That younger audience will grow older. Culture will change. Music will change.

As we get older we expand our musical tastes: jazz, early rock, big band music, the great singers....today I listen to music from the 50s back to the 20s....things I would never have listened to when I was young. Including classical. And mediums like YouTube keep them easily accessible.

Barbra Streisand isn't going anywhere. Her music will still be here when everyone of us is dead.

Harold Arlen, Cole Porter, Harry Warren...they're not going to be forgotten either, including the singers who did them justice. And that includes Streisand.

But Streisand early focus was on obscure, not-quite standards. When she finally began to tackle the "gold" standards... well, her versions already aren't spoken about in the same terms as Ella's or Sinatra's. Even the defence linked upthread describes her music as schlock. In some ways, she's the Meryl Streep of music. She's rated more than her projects.

[quote]But Streisand early focus was on obscure, not-quite standards.

Those too. And that's just another of Streisand's strengths. And those are also songs of hers that will be enjoyed for years to come after so much music today will seem hopelessly dated.

Anyway, her first seven albums...seven albums.... are filled with classics. Exquisitely done.

"Someone To Watch Over Me" is the definition of a standard. It's not remotely obscure.

*sigh*

R141 Please tell us what you don't understand about the sentence: "Anyway, her first seven albums...seven albums.... are filled with classics."

Thanks in advance.

Kate Smith.

R125 Connie, after the British Invasion, remained a top concert act for a long time, and perhaps the top female in Las Vegas where she signed a 10 year contract with The Sahara, and often appeared by request at other Las Vegas stages. Her appearances at the Copa were events, and she appeared at Carnegie Hall many times. So, it is not so much poor Connie Francis. She remained a major act and was perhaps the most versatile female artist of her time. She made top money throughout her career

[quote]remained a top concert act for a long time, and perhaps the top female in Las Vegas where she signed a 10 year contract

So not true. No where near the top female in Las Vegas. She was a minor presence. Lola Falana, Diana Ross, Cher, Eydie Gormé, Streisand, Dionne Warwick....even the Lennon Sisters...those were the names ruling Vegas and with the biggest contracts.

Connie Francis' "comeback" years after her rape was a short lived disaster.

Concerts at Carnegie Hall? Anyone can rent Carnegie Hall, but anyway, where's her 1970s/80s Carnegie Hall album?

Her Palladium concert is on YouTube. An embarrassment.

[Quote] *sigh*

[Quote] Please tell us what you don't understand about the sentence: "Anyway, her first seven albums...seven albums.... are filled with classics."

[Quote] Thanks in advance.

Well... to support your point, you posted an article that concluded Streisand's music is "shlock." I guess we're both guilty of not reading fully before we post...

R146

You really don't get it.

I loathe most of Streisand's post 1974 output. Even things that were praised like her Broadway albums, I find unlistenable. "Shlock." indeed.

But was she one of 10 most influential/successful White female artist of the 20th century, as the OP asks?

You bet she was.

Successful, sure. Influential, not so much.

Personally pre-1970s I would say Edith Piaf, Judy Garland for sure. In France, Juliette Greco.

Also in France, Barbara.

Je m'appelle Barbara.

What about Marlene?

Oh yes, Marlene of course!

One might argue Maria Callas, but I imagine we're talking about pop singers here.

Also there is a difference between influental, iconic, unique.

In the unique category, Bobbie Gentry.

R145 Absolutely false. She was the top female in LV throughout the 60s. Many Carnegie Hall performances and COPA engagements were events.

Connie Francis has been totally forgotten by anyone who isn't 100 years old.

Connie graciously allowed Bassey to sing "Goldfinger" in the movie, but couldn't resist the invitation to sing the song on TV.

[R-147] Do you find “If I Loved You” from “The Broadway Album” shlock?

[quote]Connie graciously allowed Bassey to sing "Goldfinger" in the movie,

Oh stop with the bullshit.

My problem with those albums are the weird echo across-the-universe orchestrations they used. Listen to, "Somewhere". Such kitsch. And even “If I Loved You” has it. Rather than sounding timeless as does her 1960s work, These sound dated.

But again: was she one of the 10+ most influential/successful White female artist of the 20th century?

Without a doubt. Influential and successful.

^^^ Post R161 in answer to R159

"Harry Belafonte made movies, gave high-profile interviews, was politically engaged. He's had little lasting influence as a musician, though."

Harry Belafonte was a sex bomb, which always dates itself out. His music - Calypso - also dated itself out. He didn't have a marketing machine pushing his past in the 1970s-80s and beyond, so he vanished into obscurity for the most part. Belafonte did appear in a few movies, and that is the only thing that current audiences may know him from. He was a mediocre actor though I liked him immensely in the above average Noir "Odds Against Tomorrow" (1959) with Robert Ryan and directed by Robert Wise. Another interesting movie, White Man's Burden (1995) co-starring John Travolta, where whites and blacks switched roles - blacks were the ruling class and whites were the underclass. It could have been fascinating, but they highlighted Travolta and his role so much that the other side lost too much. Still thought provoking.

Streisand's early "actress who sings" recordings made her what she became in the 1960s - BUT since the thrill of a new performer like her in CONTEXT cannot be duplicated, her appeal is totally different today. For the most part it's movies that keep her current with people who fall under her spell. Movies does it for everyone. How many young fans of Frank Sinatra today know his records? It's all MOVIES.

R158 Not so. You cannot take the fact that she was so successful on record, TV, and concerts.

[Quote] How many young fans of Frank Sinatra today know his records?

-- Raises hand --

There are quite a few songs by Frank Sinatra that are still very well-known today, and used in commercials/films etc all the time. He's not female.

bump?

Jan Terri influenced many.

Only on Dataloung does Connie Fucking Francis still matter. Connie Francis was always a kitschy joke. Please!

Barbra was great in the '60s, but when she tried to go "current" or, worse, "rock" to make a few more bucks she was rediculous. Most of her output after the '60s is rubbish. Even her Back to Broadway album was filled with cheesy '80s orchestrations.

Judy Garland was justifiably jealous of Streisand in the '60s because Barbra was a much more impressive singer, but instead of using her amazing voice to record Cole Porter, she recorded shitty duets with Kim Carnes, who can't even sing.

I think Garland ended her career better than Streisand, shitting out barbituates on a toilet instead of shitting out adult contemporary rubbish on radio.

Connie Francis, without a doubt!