When did Manhattan become one giant mall?

When the Riviera Cafe closed in the village I knew it was over for me.

[quote] martian

Oh dear

The landlords want big corporate chains instead of indie/small businesses. Deeper pockets.

R3 wants big cock instead of small cock for deeper penetration.

The developed world has developed into one big mall (bricks and mortar and virtual).

"It's the same wherever you go." Shane MacGowan being prophetic

R3 types fat.

Bitch, when was the last time you visited, 1986? Manhattan has been exactly as you describe since before 9/11.

Oh, not to mention the Meatpacking District, which is...not as I remember it. At all.

Go to Julius’ and enjoy old NYC. West Village is gilded and more sterile in general but Julius’ is an oasis.

Welcome to gentrification bitch! Seriously though, what DID you want it to look like?

Jesus Christ, I did not make this up. Landlords would rather have a Sprint store than a vintage clothing store as a tenant. This was discussed on NY1 this morning.

Why are you cunts so offended by the truth? I don’t like it, either.

What’s weird is they would prefer NO tenant to a vintage clothing store. No one wants to rent to mom and pop storeS now. Real estate is too expensive except for the super deep pocketed.

martian martian martian

Some Frenchie just got slashed in Harlem while walking around in the middle of the day. So Harlem at least still has that authentic feeling to it.

You will weep when you see Bleeker Street.

A vintage clothing store can't pay the rent, that's the problem. Mom and pop stores have been dying for the last 20 years. Where I live in Brooklyn all you see is retail space for rent signs.

Landlords get tax benefits for keeping those stores empty, R16.

But all of this is news only if you have just emerged from a decades-long coma. The $$$ are just too good for it to be any other way.

They're asking 9k a month for a 250 sqft space in the West Village.No independent store can afford that shit.

The myth of “tax benefits” for empty store needs to die. It’s like saying companies lose money for the tax benefits. Sure there may be some tax write off against other income - but you don’t choose to lose $100,000 to save $25,000 in taxes.

A possibility is that the financing on the building can be determined by “market” rents which may be more than can actually be attained. But the drivers of the extreme amount of vacant retail space are complex and multiple.

2004

[quote]You will weep when you see Bleeker Street.

I wept when I saw your spelling.

Manhattan's sad last days

[QUOTE]Just got back from the new Hudson Yards, and it looks like Vegas -- garish, with Dior and Fendi and sterile mall-ish hallways

What else were you expecting from a huge corporate development like Hudson Yards though?

Yes, the corporations own this country and the individuals are powerless to stop it. Reminding us of this is such a bummer. Next!

Process began under Dave Dinkins (though he receives next to nil credit), then picked up steam under Rudy G, and went into over drive during Bloomberg's three terms. In short the changing of Manhattan from a dying working or middle class industrial city to glittering Berkeley on the Hudson.

Instead of fleeing for the suburbs educated and well off to wealthy whites (among others) are now remaining or coming to the new safer, cleaner Manhattan. In turn they are causing all sorts of changes including what is going on in outer boroughs (Brooklyn, Queens, and now even Bronx).

If it is of any constellation to you Fairway is in bankruptcy again, and at least Manhattan stores will become part of Shoprite.

The UES is the only part that remains somewhat stable. I know there have been some shifts, but not as much as other parts of Manhattan.

Is that British cafe by that GoFundMe British cunt still open?

Yes, T&S is still open.

Left Manhattan in 1999- the change even then was too much. When you meet Long Island frat boys and their girlfriends walking through the Meatpacking district at 4 AM you know something is wrong.

Julius' is sadly troubled. Go while you can.

It's happening every where...every decent fun city that had any sense of style and artistry and funk is quickly losing all of that. And, here in Seattle, it's not just indie things dying....chain stuff is failing, too.

Eventually, every city will be a sea of ugly rabbit hutch apartment buildings, with gyms, doctor offices, salons on the ground floor and globs of restaurants but little to no nightlife because it's too noisy.

I found myself asking the same exact question when I last visited Vienna. It's been ruined.

When Marc Jacobs opened his store in the Village it was over as we knew it.

[quote]If it is of any constellation to you

Shame on you, R25!

[quote] Julius' is sadly troubled. Go while you can.

Oh no! Rent or owner problems?

[quote]If it is of any constellation to you

Stellar Trumpian malapropism!

R34

Deserved that, *LOL*

Auto complete took over and never bothered to proof. Consolation, constellation... in the grand scheme of things it's all the same. Hahaha

R30

Don't tell Julianne Moore

R26

Suppose it would depend upon how you define "stable".

There is tons of new construction on UES/Yorkville, and more is coming.

South-East corner of Lexington and 79th is being emptied out for redevelopment (Candle Bar/Restaurant just closed)

Half block on Lexington from 78th to 79th was torn down and being redeveloped.

Former site of Hunter College school of social work (Lexington and 79th north-west corner) was torn down and redeveloped.

Much of 79th between Lexington and Park avenues (a few doors down from new building mentioned above) is being torn down and redeveloped.

There is a new building going up on 79th between Madison and Fifth.

Madison between 79th and 80th saw several old remaining low rise buildings torn down for redevelopment.

Corner of Madison and 86th (north-east) is being emptied out for redevelopment.

Corner of 79th and Third (south -east) was redeveloped into luxury condos.

Half block between 83rd and 84th was torn down and is being redeveloped....

Entire block on Third between 77th and 76th has been torn down for redevelopment.

Those are just a few (believe it or not), with more either already building, land cleared or in planning stages.

Once considered no man's land; Yorkville east of Third is hot in terms of real estate redevelopment. Much of it has to do with new Second Avenue subway (which by the way is already crowded), and goes north well past 96th in terms of land/buildings being bought for redevelopment.

Something is supposed to be going on with block where JG Mellon sits, but aside from one building torn down things seemed to have stopped.

Meatpacking District began dying when SATC began putting it on national map. Then by the 2000's when city began pushing (forcing?) meat packers to follow Fulton fish market up to Hunt's Point it helped clear deck for real estate values to rise and gentrification to begin in earnest.

Of course largest nail in that coffin was when Bloomberg reversed Rudy G's decision to allow demolition of the High Line. Subsequent development of High Line Park was the end of meatpacking district of old.

Was done with the Village when Saint Vincent's hospital shut down. In fact haven't been down Seventh Avenue South past 14th since maybe a few months after place closed, but before demolition/redevelopment began.

This is the only image of the meatpacking district I find unfortunate. Any time food stores are closed and replaced with fancy clothing stores is sad. But the rest of the images in that article look very nice. Areas that appeared deserted and frightening in the 80's now look teaming with activity. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to live in that part of town in the 80s. The place looked like Berlin after WWII.

I prefer this kind of meatpacking, thank you.

After 1990. Definitely after 2010.

After 9/11

Please bear with me.

I moved to NYC mid 80s' to go to F.I.T. in Chelsea.

There was an gritty excitement to everything. That end of 7th was the sad remains of the fur district. Empty warehouses, dirty "delis" and a real mash up of styles and cultures.

Now when I go back, it's like another planet. The edge (and the fun) is gone.

OP, do you live under a rock?!

DL has been bitching about this constantly for years and years.

R14- If an Amercian walked around in a shitty Arab neighborhood of Paris. The same thing might happen.

Harlem is perfectly fine r14 and has been a poster child for gentrification. Crime happens everywhere. Harlem used to be notoriously dangerous decades ago, but nowadays the crime rate is completely unnoteworthy.

.

OP is right. It's been happening slowly but surely for about 25 years, but the pace has accelerated intensely in the past year.

I was working out of town for a few months, and when I returned to the Upper West Side (where I'd kept my apartment while I was gone), five stores within a three-block radius had departed. And three of those were corporate chains. And I'm not talking Washington Heights. I live near the damn Dakota. And now Fairway's about to go too, to become a ShopRite.

When the chains fold because of too-high rents, you know trouble's afoot.

With all these empty storefronts (including some unlucky blocks that are completely empty now at the ground level), homeless encampments are creeping in, slowly but surely. Right now it's freezing outside, but as the weather gets warmer, this problem will get worse.

And I'm gonna disagree with R19 here. Many (if not most) of these buildings are now owned by corporations, and the huge tax write-offs (at 100% of the last rental price) are a total disincentive for landlords to lower the rents, hence the empty places. So the natural corrections that would take place by landlords (to lower the rents to get tenants) have been eradicated by the insane tax write-offs. Sure, a landlord would rather make cash than get a discount, but agents aren't gonna keep their jobs if the new, lower rental income is less than the tax write-offs. Imagine how many places would be filled if the tax laws were changed. Those landlords would be making deals, and fast, and at rates that businesses could actually afford.

Hopefully that change will happen soon. And in some ways it's already too late. There's been a huge exodus of people from New York in recent years, and that will continue. Why pay exorbitant rents and deal with the stress when you can have the same mall-like culture everywhere else?

I'm wondering where I would go if I left the city. San Francisco has been ruined by the techies, and as someone else pointed out, most cities are facing various similar problems. (Anyone been to Paris recently? Ugh.)

A friend who used to live here and now lives in Seattle was visiting a few weeks ago, and she asked the same question as OP: When did Manhattan become a giant mall?

I love living here and have been here a long time, but the love is fading.

Meat packing was changing before SATC Jeffrey started it. It was gentrifying in late 90s.

Someone upthread mentioned that all the white families are staying in the city instead Of going to the suburbs. That may have been the case 10 years ago but today, more and more people are leaving. Outflow is definitely outstripping inflow.

Also, the luxury housing market is in a tailspin that won’t easily be corrected. Yet new construction is everywhere and hasn’t slowed down. It’s all very strange.

R27 Nikki tried to get the city to add a British subname to Greenwich Avenue between Jane and Horatio. Wanted special designation like 46th Stet Diamond District and 32nd Street Koreatown. She's not well-liked, no one agreed with her idea. Never happened, GOOD.

This is pretty much everywhere in any more-expensive neighborhood in the developed world.

This is the only image of the meatpacking district I find unfortunate. Any time food stores are closed and replaced with fancy clothing stores is sad

Actually, that's a picture of Western Beef. They didn't close, they moved the location closer to Chelsea Public Housing. They're on the opposite north side of Chelsea Market, which is now a huge tourist destination. But I agree, I would rather see Western Beef in the 14th Street location.

I imagine the new luxury buildings contain apartments that are being presold and purchased by Chinese (and Saudis and Russians.)

Welcome to Vancouver-on-the-Hudson.

The meatpacking district was vile in the 90s. Any outdated business specializing in meat should close. There is enough food for every person in the US without it. It just isn't distributed correctly.

Yeah the most obvious question is - where is better? EVERY major gay city in the world has been hypergentrified. Hypercapitalism has slashed and burned the “edge” out of every major city.

I agree it started to be sterilized under Giuliani - who used the police and obscure laws (no dancing without a permit) to shit down “fun”. Then global capitalism seeped in and pushed out any remaining artistic or creative element hearladed by SATC.

But where else is better? It’s not Florida, it’s not Texas, not CA.

The world of eclectic independent stores has died everywhere in the era of the internet.

I thought there was a law in China now that their citizens can longer invest large portions of money outside the country.

R52, that seems to shift. 20 years ago most people moved when they had kids. Then about 7 or 8 years ago I read that families are now staying. I guess it's cycling back to leaving. I honestly don't know why anyone would want to raise children in the city.

R58, funny you mention those places. I know a lot of people who moved and those were some destinations and all say they would never move back to NY. Just an easier way of life elsewhere. I guess it depends on what you're looking for though. As far as sterilization, that's not what really has me concerned lately, it's all the crime. Slashings, punching people for no reason, rapes. At least way back the crime matched the grittiness of the city, that's not the case anymore.

I agree it started to be sterilized under Giuliani - who used the police and obscure laws (no dancing without a permit) to shit down “fun”.

I would say it started before that. Koch started shutting down gay bathhouses. Coming out of the 1980s I think it was inevitable that NYC had to gentrify or end up like Detroit.

20 years ago most people moved when they had kids. Then about 7 or 8 years ago I read that families are now staying. I guess it's cycling back to leaving.

I constantly had this discussion with a frau coworker in the late 1990s. I argued NYC was a playground for single people and not a place to raise a family. I told her children needed a backyard, room to run and play and ride their bikes. She kept arguing that the city was good to take children to museums and that Central Park was good enough for children to play in.

I think families stayed in NYC, and largely the UWS because the mothers didn't want to leave the glitzy life of NYC. They wanted family as well as Sex and the City life.

R56: The Chinese have overrun Hell's Kitchen.

The Chinese have overrun Hell's Kitchen.

Where did the rent boys go?

I love you r50.

"I imagine the new luxury buildings contain apartments that are being presold and purchased by Chinese (and Saudis and Russians.)"

I have a few friends in high end real estate here in NYC. I've been told that many of those units are not pre-sold. The Chines/Russian/Saudi thing tapered off a few years ago. Many units over 800k are not moving (according to said friends). Inventory is at an all time high.

[quote]It's happening every where...every decent fun city that had any sense of style and artistry and funk is quickly losing all of that.

Naples and Palermo Italy are fabulous hold-outs.

I think we have to go to poorer cities for any edge, uniqueness or livability. Philadelphia has popped up as an affordable version of a dense walkable creative city. Not as vibrant or international as NYC - but interesting, large enough and vaguely affordable.

R35--Bankruptcy filing. I hope it all works out for current owner or someone new who loves and keeps the place going. So sad.

The last time I was in Naples it was a dump covered in graffiti. That is not an environment that is conducive to a good life.

Test test test

[quote]The last time I was in Naples it was a dump covered in graffiti. That is not an environment that is conducive to a good life.

You would have hated NYC in the 70s.

[QUOTE]The world of eclectic independent stores has died everywhere in the era of the internet.

Not true. European cities and some South American ones have many independent stores were you can find unique items not found anywhere else. It's part of what makes strolling through their streets so fascinating.

And there is little or no gay life in Naples. How about another city - poor, interesting but with a gay life?

[quote] but what the HELL has happened to Broadway on the Upper West Side?

You’re too old to even be bothered with.

Go away.

Start a thread somewhere else about where the hell the London fog went & what has Paris done to the Court of Miracles?

[quote] But the drivers of the extreme amount of vacant retail space are complex and multiple

Do try to explain, dear.

R75. Just because you live in Arkansas, doesn’t give you the right to be nasty.

R77, longtime NYC resident here. NYC gentrified starting in the 90s & went into hyperdrive after 9/11. You’ve obviously not been here since the 1980s.

Who cares when it started? Early 90s, late 90s, whatever. I was referring to your nastiness in setting everyone straight.

Hey r75, it’s rich of you to tell someone they’re too old to bother with, when it’s apparent that you’re long in the tooth too.

To the poster who posted all the development on UES...what is the latest with that garbage/sanitation brouhaha that the residents were complaining about 1 or 2 years ago? It was supposed to bring all the garbage trucks to the area.

A little gentrification is fine within reason but I think it was better when the conventional basic types stayed in the suburbs with their car and 2.5 kids and the oddballs and creative types went to NYC. Everyone had a place that fit their lifestyle and mores. Vast swaths of this country are designed for middle management men and Frau mommy bloggers, and very little for weirdos , unconventional individuals and artists . Not sure why the former can't leave cities to the latter.

Families started staying in NYC even before 9/11. Families staying in the city is not a “new” thing. Thousands of parents were separated from their children on 9/11 and parents demanded their children be allowed to have their cellphones on them in school & turned on at all times after that.

Who do you think Battery Park City was built for? Absentee Asians? Construction on new residential buildings in downtown NYC never slowed even as Ground Zero was being cleared.

I lost my views of Chrysler Building & the East River within one year by all the new construction uptown. I was once told I lived in “the jungle” because I was above 86th Street. Ha.

There was a family in my building - two parents & 2 children in a one bedroom. The parents divorced & the husband didn’t move out because he couldn’t afford it. If the mother forced him out, he’d lose his job & wouldn't be able to pay child support. The husband started dating. He & the ex wife would have arguments about who would stay home with the kids while the other was at work because the husband wanted to meet his girlfriends. He finally met a young woman who could afford rent on her own studio apartment & moved in with her. But the damage had been done. The son developed a hatred for his mother and pulled a knife on her when he was 13 years old. He blamed her for all the family problems (because he heard his father blaming her whenever she was out of the house). But neither parent would move out of the city. Pretty fucked up, no? Neither one felt they could afford to go to the burbs & pay rent on a garden apartment, plus buy a car, pay car insurance, gas money, car repairs. Or afford railroad fare to work. You still have to have a car for grocery shopping & everything else even if you can take a train.

Vast swaths of this country are designed for middle management men

There are no more middle management men. McKinsey got rid of them all. It’s what McKinsey is famous for - the destruction of the middle class and the upward flow of profits to CEOs.

....

Not sure why the former can't leave cities to the latter.

Because they want to be around creative people, but they had nothing to offer. Look at the Soho neighborhood in NYC. Many artists lived there because there were huge buildings with lots of space. Then the rich descended on the neighborhood and drove the prices up to insane levels. Why should Kelly Rippa live in Soho with her rich husband? They can well afford somewhere else. People like this forced all the creatives out. It's happened this way in almost every Manhattan neighborhood.

Recently at work, there was a young NYU grad telling her co-worker how wonderful Murray Hill was. And her co-worker got so excited because she lived in Murray Hill as well. I felt like saying, "You know what's even more exciting? Living in New Rochelle."

"Why should Kelly Rippa live in Soho with her rich husband?"

r86, I would think Kelly Rippa makes more money than her husband Marc. Where does he get his money from; those rich gays he hang out with on the down lo?

Kelly Ripa no longer lives in Soho, she sold her digs downtown years ago. As far as I know, she's been living in a townhouse in UES.

Kelly Ripa no longer lives in Soho

No, but the point is that she moved in because it was a hot neighborhood that had gentrified. Maybe she should have moved to the suburbs and left the space for a struggling artist.

Where did all the middle class gays go. I occasionally meet some in the Village who live in NJ or uptown. But I feel like the only poor gay left in the Village.

Thank you, OP. I was born and raised in New York. When I first saw Hudson Yards with that tower and mall, I thought what the hell was the difference between that and some attraction in a midwestern city? The High Line is a gimmick. 5th Avenue is a joke. Manhattan's become one, large theme park in places. Every neighborhood is beginning to look the same. Hipster Williamsburg...no thank you. It's monotonous and sterile.

The empty storefronts and the Duane Reade pharmacies on every block are depressing. And Hudson Yards does seemed designed from the perspective of an Oligarch.

But I never understood the anti-High Line brigade. People who just hate walking? People who would've preferred a rotting, unused elevated railway? I always felt like the people who complained about the High Line were the same people screaming about bike lanes and that there isn't enough parking anymore.

R83, I know similar, but in Park Slope. My friend was good friends with the neighbors, married couple with one child. The dad was a teacher or professor, but hardly worked. They lived in a small one bedroom, rent controlled apartment they wouldn't give up because they couldn't afford a bigger place in the area. The daughter's 'room' was a small loft, but most of the time she would sleep with the mom and the dad would sleep on the couch. This girl was like 12-13; totally inappropriate to not have privacy and selfish on the parents part. The parents used to dump the kid on my somewhat naive friend so they could have alone time together, but dad also sort of hit on my friend. There were definite marital problems and the wife wanted out, but they continued to stay/live together. This was 5-6 years ago, kind of curious what there arrangement is now. My friend moved, but she kept in touch with them.

Had a kid who grew up in my building in a 1BR with his parents. When he was about 13, it was a constant stream of screaming from the mother at the kid. Went on for 4-5 years. Insane.

Then it went quiet and I didn’t see the kid around. Within a year, I saw him standing outside the building just hanging out. Once I saw him talking to the dad in a surreptitious way. Then I saw him standing outside with a pregnant girl. I guess waiting for his parents. He never moved back in - and the mother took up exercise and became super healthy and seemingly happy.

Last summer I saw him roaming the streets, disheveled and seemingly homeless. Possibly on drugs. Fascinating. Maybe it would have turned out the same if they lived in a bigger place in the suburbs - but I doubt it.

We visit often and enjoy that all our favorite chains are so close together, making our visits on rascals that much easier.

Manhattan is an adult playground.

Anyone who decides to raise a kid in NYC and doesn't pull in hundreds of thousands of dollars year after year is a fool.

R73 - the little piece of central Europe I've had a chance to explore since moving for work does not match your assertion. Small, independent businesses are suffering here, too, aside from restaurants and service providers.

R90, I also live in the Village. Been here for 25 years.

I recently did the High Line like a good tourist. I was staying in Chelsea. I'm in good health and love to walk but it ended up feeling like a death march. "Gimmick", as above. The Meat Packing District was awash in boutiques and franchises. Disappointing. I went there to visit Nelson Sullivan's old place. It's a gallery now and across the street was a Hermes boutique.

R97, check out Lisbon, Porto, Madrid, Seville, San Sebastian, Bogota, Cuzco and Buenos Aires.

R99 More people need to know about Nelson Sullivan

Start at the end of his story here and work your way backwards. Extraordinary man.

Regarding Kelly Ripa, I don't know why I remember this... she actually had just moved out of the city and into the burbs, maybe NJ, right when she got the Live show. They moved back to city since it shoots so early.

Off subject, but, can someone start (or revive) a Nelson Sullivan thread? Someone's asserting he died of AIDS now, where that had been denied previously by a lot of people who knew him well, including Ru Paul. TIA

Wow R102 - that was awesome! The year I moved to the West Village. Always wished I had taken more pictures. Neve could have imagined how it would change. The piers were a wasteland - post-sex and President-Hudson River Park. That Pathfinder mural is a total flashback. The Far West Village has so many abandoned open lots and run down buildings. But even then, it seemed like we had just missed the peak - AIDS had wiped out the gay crushing grounds and sex clubs.

Thank you!

R102, thank you for that video. It perfectly illustrates how the brutal gentrification has destroyed what gave NYC its character. I also love how Nelson says that in the 70's people used to "read poetry, write and meditate" on the piers which I think is an euphemism for "suck cock, bareback and eat ass".

When I first moved to Yorkville there were still advertisements painted on the sides of buildings from the early 20th century. And German restaurants, shoe stores, grocery shop. The local drugstores stocked birthday cards in German

Interesting that in 1989, we thought the West Village was so gentrified. We had no idea. I remember the Richard Meier towers on Perry St and West Side Highway being built around 1999 being the beacon of the HYPERgentrification that was coming. It went from being nicer and safer and kinda expensive - to absolutely sterile and filled with empty million dollar studios. But it happened in every global city.

Can't tell you how many loads I've dumped in R40s pic

You can thank Bloomberg for that.

I've never been to the high line and I will never go to that hudson yards eye sore.

[quote] The world of eclectic independent stores has died everywhere in the era of the internet.

Something our DLEGs refuse to acknowledge.

If you were the type of person who was interested in opening an eclectic store, you'd have much more success opening it online

20somethings all live in Brooklyn, Queens and Jersey City unless their parents are rich, in which case they live in Murray Hill

While there are more families in Manhattan, those are often 0.01% Wall Streeters or 1%ers where both parents work high pressure jobs so commuting to the suburbs doesn't make sense. The rest live in Brooklyn until it wears them down and they move to Westchester or New Jersey.

NYC real estate prices often seem made up from thin air. There is an apartment today featured in the "For Sale In" section of the NYT. It's on the border of Woodside and Sunnyside in Queens (not desirable neighborhoods) in a building that is part of a complex that looks like it's a step above a housing project. It's a small 2BR apartment with 1 bath and a galley kitchen.

They are asking $529K for it. (Link to Streeteasy because NYT has a paywall)

What a performance artist Nelson Sullivan was.

I can remember as a kid traveling upstate in a car along the old West Side Highway and seeing the abandoned piers and what not, then in high school exploring Downtown and the Village, and coming back from college to clubs in the 80s. All changed.

How can a guy today like Sullivan come to the city from a rural state and turn his life into a Warholesque commentary? Is cutting edge dead?

When the propped-up economy collapses the grit will return to NYC and cities everywhere. There'll be a renaissance of creativity, too. Smoke and mirrors of the Web will only take us so far. It's a maturing "industry". We'll see a post-Vapor era yet.

Nelson Sullivan was decades ahead of his time documenting everyday life.

I remember The Glory Hole club on 11th Ave. between 21st & 22nd. 4 floors of nothing but hard dick at the ready. Now there's a big fancy high rise building there.

You can always count on Nelson's camera following a guy with a hot booty or basket who happens by. Check out the cutie doorman at the Pyramid Club in this video. Woof. Packin'. He's ill, though :(

^He shows up twice, BTW.

If only we can go back in time

Is that a Keith Haring inscribed into the concrete in front of the Pyramid Club at R117?

[QUOTE]If you were the type of person who was interested in opening an eclectic store, you'd have much more success opening it online.

That might have been true 10 years ago but now that everyone and their cat has an online shop it's much more difficult to successfully operate a store in that infinite, cluttered ocean that is the web.

@R117 The doorman was actually the soundman at the Pyramid Club. His name was Chris and he was "very ill" in the early 90s and was headed Uptown into assisted living, according to "Annette Mansfield" in the comments section.

I moved from NYC to New Orleans 4 years ago. Best thing I've ever done. In Manhattan, every block was a Duane Reade across from a Chase across from a Starbucks. In a crowded field, my favorite thing about New Orleans is the lack of chains and an abundance of locally owned stores, businesses, and restaurants. The crime is real but if you're not looking to cop drugs murder is a pretty unlikely outcome of your day. And my rent went from $2,300 for a studio on the UWS to $900 for a one-bedroom two blocks from St Charles Avenue in the Lower Garden District. I think NO is the last place in America where a musician or artist can make a living and afford to live. The job market is tough but if you can work remotely as I can, that won't impact you. Also, for the next ten days, the biggest free party in the world is two blocks from my door. And New Orleans has always been gay-friendly. If any of this sounds good, come on down!

Well, r123, that worked out very well for you. Just don't call me when the city floods again.

R66

When a property is priced correctly it will sell. Overall the < $5 million market is doing better than "luxury" new construction.

Sellers of existing units just as with private homes in outer boroughs need to get real about pricing. There is just so much new inventory (and more is still coming on line) both sales and rental, plus competition from suburbs.

Furthermore you have coming together of various policies (SALT deductions, mansion tax, new rent laws, etc...) that are affecting decisions about where and when people buy.

Quite honestly much new construction today is garbage and pretty small for what you get. The luxury end may offer larger spaces, but you'll pay dearly for those full or half floor apartments.

Since Disney bought up Time's Square, which was like 20 years ago.

R52

Problem for even white "middle class" families is no one is building enough housing they can afford in areas they want to live.

Large numbers of families from Park Slope and other parts of western Brooklyn are moving to New Jersey (Maplewood, Montclair, etc...) or even parts of Westchester or Long Island.

They are looking for decent housing in areas with good schools (public) and other amenities that offer value for their tax dollars.

Yup. And the truth is the commute from those parts of NJ is the same as from places like Crown Heights, maybe even better

That is another thing; city and developers keep pushing eastern Brooklyn (Crown Heights, East New York, etc....) as if they are the next big thing. All that "affordable" housing (for middle class families presumably) who subsidize the below market rate rentals. Trouble is people aren't taking the bait.

Yeah, there may be good schools and other ammenities out there in ten, twenty or more years, but who has that kind of time.

Those priced out of Park Slope, Brooklyn Heights, Clinton Hill, etc... are going to NJ, Westchester or Long Island, especially if they have school aged children or are planning.

Breeders and tepid, upper middle-class strivers may be the reason why the city seems more boring, but they're beneficiaries rather than the cause of hypergentrification. What you're seeing is a by-product of the globalization of the Finance industry, and its failure to effectively recycle surplus cash in the hands of the ultra-wealthy. Yanis Varoufakis has been talking about this for years.

Do these new developments have to contribute towards affordable housing in any way? Whether it be financially or having to set aside a number of apartments for affordable rent?

I was reading about Hudson Yard, and surprised that The Shed was funded by the city and donations - I always assumed the developer had to pay for it as a cultural contribution. Is there none of that either?

Time's Square?

What will be interesting to see happen is the breaking up of those massive new apartments into more reasonable size apartments. As they are not selling as 5,000 square foot units, I’m curious if they break them into 1,000 or 2,500 square foot units. The problem in the Village has been the opposite - the conversion of a building with a dozen 1Br and studio apartments into a massive mega-mansion, eliminating 12 middle class units and replacing it with an absentee billionaire owner. This is what decimates the essence of the neighborhood

Exactly R132. I think the Amazon HQ2 debacle in NYC woke people up to the scam that is government subsidies of developers and corporations. Or at least people are finally mobilizing and taking action to prevent the pols from providing blatant welfare to developers and corporations. I’m curious to see what happens with The Shed. There isn’t much creative art left to subsidize in NYC.

R134

That may not be very easy, well for condo buildings anyway.

Once board is in place sponsor/developer would have a very difficult time attempting to split unsold apartments into smaller units. In sort causing those who paid major sums for their units to have value possibly diluted by increasing overall number of apartments.

If history is any guide unsold sponsor units will become rentals until when or if they are sold, or disposed of quietly via whisper listings at lower prices.

It really is going to be something that happens on a building by building basis. Icon Realty's first foray into condo development; Beckford House on UES is off to a good start in sales. This for a building that isn't even completed and won't be (from looking outside of it) for several more months. I never thought I'd see people paying > $10 million to live on Second Avenue, but there you are.

Far West Village/Meat Packing district gentrification is a mixed bag....

For those who lived down there back in the day (1980's, 1990's or before) changes finally got rid of trannie hookers, open air sex (gay, trans or whatever), and brought a measure of lower crime levels. For those who own they have seen property values rise which is a very good thing. Know more than a few elder gays both partnered/married and single who did very well for themselves selling in 2000's. They took that money and ran to Florida or other places.....

Many people living in subsided housing values down there have increased. There was a time no one wanted to live in those West Village Apartments. But those that did take the bait now own some very deseriable real estate.

The High Line is stupid. Just shut up about it. So fucking dumb. Only morons and tourists go there. It’s like Times Square. Vomit.

I got to NY in early nineties to go to Juilliard and it really had already started in earnest by then. Everything was already too expensive and rising. There were pockets like East Village and HK, but that all changed by the end of the nineties. Chelsea was completely unaffordable by 1995. Giuliani pretty much ended NY, 9/11 took out another chunk, and Bloomberg finished it off. But where else is there? Every other city in the US is on the same track, and don’t get me started on Europe. Paris and London are long done, Berlin is nearly destroyed but trying to stop it, and now Barcelona is fucked. There’s nowhere left for anything gritty or edgy while still stylish and interesting.

I miss the tranny hookers of the West Village. There was a big push around 2000 to get rid of all the “trouble makers” and hookers who had owned the piers and Christopher St for years. Pissed me off - they are what I loved about my neighborhood, not the elderly Karen’s worried about how dangerous a tranny looking for a date is.

I appreciate the cleaner buildings, but the West Village has been super safe since the late 80s. The main thing that’s changed is the elimination of useful support services like diners, laundries and pizza shops. But you can get $250 omakase.

The tranny hookers were so lacking in self-awareness they jumped into cabs uninvited until they were physically thrown out.

I love this place.

And Cape Town and Montevideo R100. What about Lyublyana, Prague, Warsaw?

What about Asia?

Asia? Have you heard of coronavirus? It's very active there, go at your own risk!

Hello? Macy's, Gimbels, Saks 5th Ave, Barney's, The Village all over town, people have been coming to NY for decades for the shopping.

R141 for "The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel" the sign was changed to City Diner.

Everyone is asking where the middle-class people have moved to. I guess I’m one of them. My partner and I moved out to Ditmas Park after being in Williamsburg for 11 years. I’m a copywriter and he is a psychotherapist. Our neighborhood feels very much like old school nyc (I grew up on the upper east side). It’s really diverse (black, white, Latino, middle eastern, tons of gays) and there is still the occasional shooting/mugging. Big Afro-Caribbean community. Granted, it ain’t cheap ...rents are going up and the hip white kids are everywhere. But I can’t imagine it going nuclear in terms of gentrification ...it’s pretty far out on the Q train (takes me 45 minutes to get to work in midtown). There are a lot of teachers, writers, artist, nonprofit types here, too.

That being said, the hip white kids are starting to move over even further into East Flatbush. Which blows my mind. It’s still pretty sketch over there. But god bless.

I’m just wondering when it’s all going to level off. It seems there can’t be an unlimited supply of people to keep pushing the wave of gentrification further and further out. When I was a kid young striving college grads definitely were in abundance- but simply getting set up to live and work never felt as crazy or desperate as it does now.

Side-note: I found myself in the west village on a Saturday night for the first time in years recently. OMFG. It was a tsunami of basic. Everyone was white and 25. The girls looked just...horrible. Leopard print everywhere, lacquered makeup. And the guys were total midtown uniform types. Not a stylish or sexy one among them that I could see. The whole area felt like a campus bar at some middlebrow state university. Fights. Puking. The shrill skreeching from the girl posses. So so fucking depressing. Sigh.

I have a number of co-workers who did that math too R130.

Second kid on the way and the cost of a three bedroom/2 bathroom in even a sketchy part of Brooklyn or Queens was at or over $1M, while a similar sized house in a place like Maplewood NJ was about half the price, the commute was the same and there was no stressing about which school to go to and applications and all that.

As for affordable housing, many of the new developments need to allocate 20% of their units to affordable housing but there have been articles about how they make them use separate entrances and they exclude them from the various Rich People amenities (gym, playroom)

A lot of what's being built isn't big enough for families. Remember that even the cherished Classic Six is a a two-bedroom with a tiny maid's room off the kitchen that can be turned into a third bedroom and the whole thing would be a very small ranch house with no basement if it was a house.

If you follow real estate even marginally you know that Manhattan in particular is hollowing out. The inflated prices can only hold for so long before it collapses like the house of cards that it is.

I don't even recognize Manhattan anymore. How many overpriced clothing stores do people really need?

How many overpriced clothing stores do people really need?

I walk down Bleecker Street and see store after store with no patrons. How do they stay open?

I know r150! I wonder the same thing. All these stores with insanely overpriced clothes and you never really see a lot of customers.

barneys is closing for good this week. guess nobody wanted to buy that 3000 sweater.

duane reades are closing and I just don't understand, they simply lock the items away, the let the thieves steal everything. I've seen it so many times. They are so brazen and just shove items into their bag, they don't care who sees them.

Some of the stores for high end brands are designed as marketing tools, to increase awareness and make them seem posh--hence stores on Fifth Avenue and Rodeo Drive

Particularly true with brands that have lower end lines that can be bought by the masses.

What’s odd is clearly retail is dying yet the landlords hold out for the next Marc Jacobs. On Bleecker Street, the old Managua diner closed over 10 YEARS AGO an it is STILL empty. An incredibly useful important neighborhood restaurant - rent “raised” but then the space sits empty for a decade.

The crowds on Saturday night in the West Village are what the crowds in the Central Village used to be 30 years ago. Basic straight twenty somethings out to experience “hip” places. I never go out on weekends anymore.

Yes r154 I'm surprised the diner space has not been rented. The rent must be ridiculous. Same with the space on 7th Avenue that used to be Sushi Samba. Excellent location, but an Applebees is not going to move in and pay high rent. Also, what used to be Barnes and Noble over on 6th Avenue. That's been vacant for years. I wonder if the owners want a developer to buy them out at a high price, tear down the building and rebuild?

That barnes and noble was old as fuck anyways....there used to be so many shoe stores on 8th street between 6 and 5th ave. Now is so sad...I think that army navy store closed...

R151 Rich people who inherited money or got it in their divorce settlement who want to act like they have a job. So they open a shop, doesn't matter if it's successful or not, it's just something for them to do. Think Edina Monsoon.

Exactly R157. It seems like that’s the ONLY type of store opening in West Village now. Even the high-end retail chains won’t waste their money there anymore. Only stupidly optimistic and naive kids with money to burn are willing to pay those rents.

There was a high end men’s store On my corner. Some gay guy who inherited a ton of money from grandma wanted to quit his fashion job and open a “groundbreaking” men’s fashions store. Probably spent $1 million on renovations before even opening. In 2 years, I think I saw 5-6 people in that store. Not sure they ever sold anything. Closed within 3 years. They must have wasted millions. So predictable - but there is always one one who thinks THEY will be the exception.

Ha! R157 and R158 -- we call those "IB Wife Stores" -- some Ibanker's wife is bored and wants to "work" now that the kids are in high school or college, so he lets her open a store that is bound to fail and figures that the million a year is worth it to keep her happy and occupied and that the losses help with their tax bill too.

Remember when you could be young, move to the city be cool, go out and live on a retail or service industry salary (with a little supplementary shoplifting?).

Times change OP- everywhere and in all things. Haven't you realized that yet?

And then Reagan got elected forty years ago, R160 and things haven't been the same.....

What became of the actual giant mall in midtown in the 90s, the A&S Plaza?

Thanks to the posters for explaining why there are so many pointless, overpriced boutiques where nobody seems to shop. I've wondered about that for some time. I guess they can get some kind of tax write-off on it.

Also thanks to the poster for referencing Edina Monsoon. That made it instantly understandable.

What became of the actual giant mall in midtown in the 90s, the A&S Plaza?

It's two floors of mall and the rest is office space.

R160

And you lived in some vermin infested hovel often in a very sketchy area of city.

Lucky ones nabbed a rent regulated apartment in some what better area or maybe just as sketchy, but at least rent was control.

Twenty to forty years later areas have gentrified, but plenty of those people are still living (or stuck if you will) in those rent regulated apartments that still are hovels.

I’ve lived in NYC my entire life- 66 years. When I came of age in the 70s it was broke- Central Park was a graffiti covered dust bowl, the subways he’ll hole graffiti cover stage coaches, and gay lib and the baby boom gen took over the run down hoods- it was fabulous and seedy glam as hell. Then some good mayors cleaned everything up. Times Square went from 3rd world sex pit to the pin ball glitz it is today- I hate it and only go there to see shows. Hoods gay men gentrified became unaffordable. HIV devastated the baby boom, gay rights went mainstream and the city boomed economically. Central Park is beautiful due the the private Conservancy trust, new building has altered the skyline, and the West River has practically become a whole new city up and down the Hudson. The gentrifying hoods have moved on to Brooklyn and Queens. There are still great hoods from Hell’s Kitchen to the downtown glitz south of Houston to the East Village and borough hoods. NYC has never been static and will keep evolving. It’s not the same as when I was young but I still find it one of the most exciting places on earth. I’m lucky to live here.

The far east village is just shocking to me. You were always warned never to go to past first Ave. And now you have apts on Ave B and C costing multi-millions. I will never pay to live there, I don't care how gentrified it becomes. Thompson Sq park is still very seedy...granted, I've been down there in yonks.

Why do so many people think losses “help with taxes”? I guess most people don’t think about finance logically. No one chooses to lose $1 million so they can save $300,000 in taxes. Because you still lost $700,000. No logical person says I want to lose money for a tax write off - because you are still losing money. Not sure why this is such a popular opinion - I can only guess it’s the financial ignorance of the average American.

r170 they find ways around it, believe me. The wealthy in America don't have to pay what they don't want to pay in taxes.

I live in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn. I moved out there when I lost the view from my old apartment in Morningside Heights plus wanted my own place. The neighborhood is a bit dull unless you're a drinker but there doesn't seem to be a lot of movement south from hipsters or anybody. I think it's pretty much safe.

Ask your accountant to explain R170

If they can put the losses on a business and say it lost money versus making money, etc. which then lowers their overall tax bill.

Yes there is a cost--they're not making money from the deal-- but for many it's worth whatever it costs them to give the wife something to do.

I am an accountant R173. That’s why it’s so frustrating.

Well then by your own example, R174 -- spending $1M to let the wife run a business that is sure to fail may seem like an excellent use of that money if it keeps her out of his hair, especially if he knows he will recoup close to one-third of it (as per your example) at tax time.

Not to try and drag the thread off topic, but would tax loss carryforward rules not be a benefit in those cases?

[QUOTE][bold]Real-World Example[/bold In 2016, leading into the presidential vote, The New York Times released Donald Trump's 1995 tax return. Trump, who had refused to release his tax records during the race, reported a loss of $916 million in 1995, which he was able to carry forward. The losses were on realized capital losses from investments in casinos, airline business ventures, and Manhattan property. The Times reported that this loss would allow him to avoid a federal tax of $50 million for up to 18 years.

[quote]Why do so many people think losses “help with taxes”? I guess most people don’t think about finance logically. No one chooses to lose $1 million so they can save $300,000 in taxes. Because you still lost $700,000. No logical person says I want to lose money for a tax write off - because you are still losing money. Not sure why this is such a popular opinion - I can only guess it’s the financial ignorance of the average American.

Can you explain why landlords let prime real estate sit empty for YEARS? Above I mentioned three prime locations, in the West Village, all within a 2 minute walk of a major subway line. All have been vacant for several years. Why is that?

Manatus Diner (Bleecker Street)

Sushi Samba (7th Avenue)

Barnes & Noble (6th Avenue)

I feel awful that my first exposure to New York was in 2012. I'd seen it in movies, TV, and pictures all my life and once I got there I was so disappointed. It was so different than expected. Besides the theatre district, I couldn't see what all the fuss was about. I felt like I could get everything in other cities all over the world.

The biggest reason I know of to let retail sit empty is financing. Which is also the driver of Trumps “losses”. Banks and lenders will cash out the value of a building based on “market” rent - even if the space is vacant. So if a commercial space down the street rented for $1,000/square foot, you can potentially get financing that values the space at that amount. So the landlord gets a mortgage (cash in his pocket) of $1 million even though the actual space is empty.

The distortions to market economics caused by Wall Street are part of what’s killing America. Like the mortgage backed securities crash of 2008, finance is based on a bunch of overpaid twenty somethings punching numbers into complicated Excel models based on “assumptions”/“forecasts” that always assume perpetual growth. And the overpaid Managing Directors playing the game because it’s none of their skin in the game. And thanks to Republicans in the 80s who gave the huge gift of 401ks to Wall Street, we are all suckered into the game.

[quote]I felt like I could get everything in other cities all over the world.

That's because you're dumb.

In cities all over the world you could always get theatre, art, music, fine dining, all kinds of retail.

But no other city had or has the incredible mix of 20th century architectural styles that NYC has or the particular energy of it's streets. NYC is a "place" like no other. It is a very particular environment. I know of no other city in the US that is as walkable to it's various sites. t's a city thats so easy to museum hop. Everything is in such a close radius.

It has changed a lot. Every major city has. But no city in the US can even begin to compare to it.

I haven’t been to New York City since 1987. I think I’d have the same disappointment as the OP.

R173 et al

For ages well off men gave their wives, daughters, idiot sons money to start a business; countless shops full of trinkets, clothing, real estate brokerages, or whatever were just that; busy work to get them out of a well off man's hair.

If the venture lost money, those losses could be written off against gains to lower overall tax bills.

OTOH here is no tax benefit from keeping retail commercial rental property vacant, yet people who ought to know better keep repeating that fallacy as if it were gospel.

If one owns a property certain expenses accrue regardless of it being used or vacant. Rental income is supposed to cover said expenses. If there isn't any money coming in various amounts of those expenses can be deducted but that still does not wholly or even half cover costs.

Those who own many properties, and or if say residential is located as part of retail space (above or otherwise adjacent) will have other income coming in so may not feel loses from vacant commercial space much or at all.

I'm horrified at the ridiculously overpriced mall/development that is Hudson's Yards. To me, that is a metaphor as to what is wrong with New York City. It's a city that exists only for the super affluent. The middle class have vanished. There is none of that singular diversity that used to make up New York City. Where are the artists, the shopkeepers, the teachers and the like? Gone. They've all been replaced by trust fund kids, movie stars, CEOs and Wall Street executives. It's so depressing what has happened to this city, which I once worshipped.

What is weird about Hudson Yards is it like an updated version of World Financial Center mall - which was a failure already. Not sure why it happened - other than absence of creativity and the absurdity of modern day finance. It does symbolize all the problems of modern NYC. Including an ugly, pointless stairwell to nowhere posing as sculpture /art.

Yes, r177, I'm in West Hollywood, CA, and there has been a property vacant at the corner of Santa Monica x Doheny, right by the Troubadour. It has been empty as long as I've lived there, since 1993. They're obviously paying property taxes, but is that the smaller loss than no rent, or even selling the property?

I would imagine that Detroit is very much like NYC in the 70's. Lots of beautiful properties at low cost.

The money originally allocated to Hudsons Yards was supposed to build affordable housing! I kid you not! What the heck happened? Lots of political corruption, obviously.

What happened R186?

BLOOMBERG.

Disgusting. A HUGE reason why he should never become president.

R186 Which money? The funds used for The Shed or was there public money spent on the commercial development?

That big eye sore was donated. Costs 200 million bucks.

These IB wife shops - I've often wondered about them as well. I'm no accountant, but what other tax incentives are there?

Surely there are shopping trips for inventory that you can write off - or any 'business' trips to exotic locations to source your products. Plus, payroll costs.

Business meals, business use of car or other transportation, rent expense, legal and 'professional' fees, advertising and marketing, telephone and internet expenses, home office, etc.

Sounds like if you do it properly, you could write off a huge amount of expenses that you would normally have at a luxe level. Professional fees could be practically anything.

Am I wrong?

R190 $200 million and then held together by duct tape

R191 - you do hit on one of the only real benefits - the ability to write off expenses that you would have incurred anyway. Like travel, meals, “samples”. It’s the one legitimate actual “tax write off” that can be justified as truly beneficial.

R193 - but couldn't you also write off 'personal assistant' and a ton of other costs. You can write off an international business trip if only 25% of it was for business. You can write off 50% of your meals if it's for 'business'.

When you start to add up the travel, meal, technology, staff and other tax write-offs, this could be a very smart move. You can even deduct part of your expenses if your family is with you.

You would need a good accountant or personal assistant to keep on top of all the expenses, but this could add up quickly.

If you're wealthy and you have several hundred thousands of dollars a year in expenses, sounds like you could get a significant amount back.

R194, you would need to write off the expenses related only to that business. If you have income of $300,000 and expenses of $600,000, you don’t get to use the losses toward another business. They’re just losses. Can one of our smart accountants verify? I mean, a loss of money is a loss. Some people might be ok with financing their spouses for fun projects.

Also, if you have a home office....

If your home office is used exclusively and regularly for business purposes, you may be able to deduct a portion of your home-related expenses, such as mortgage interest, property taxes, homeowners insurance and some utilities.

Beginning with 2013 tax returns, the IRS began offering a simplified option for claiming the deduction. This new method uses a prescribed rate multiplied by the allowable square footage used in the home. For 2019, the prescribed rate is $5 per square foot with a maximum of 300 square feet.

R195 - if you file jointly though or if both husband and wife are owners of the business, then why couldn't they?

You could easily extend regular expenses to your 'fun business'.

If you've seen that Ab Fab episode where Eddie stops receiving alimony payments from her ex-husbands, the scene where her accountant goes through her expenses is pretty much spot on.

You can deduct valid businesses expenses within the law associated with your business (as Eddie's accountant keeps reminding her). But time and time again things keep popping up from Ed's books such as inventory purchased for her "shop", is never paid for but ends up in her home instead. When called out on this Ed's says "I like to think of my home as a showroom".... If Inland Revenue or IRS had been conducting a real audit that might not fly.

As audit grinds on there is a litany of things Ed's bills to her businesses (flowers, cocaine, beauty treatments, clothing, etc..) that keep raising the accountant's eyebrows. Again you can deduct things for valid business purposes but not if they are for personal use. In such instances where it is allowed percentage of personal use is deducted from overall amount allowed.

In other words you cannot take a trip to Paris, rack up tons of shopping for Gucci, Fendi, etc..., stay at a top hotel, treat yourself and friends to fine dining and so forth then run everything through your business. Well you can, but if IRS audits you'd better be able to show everything was business related you took deductions on.

You can deduct tons of things for business expenses no longer allowed under personal, this and or said deductions are more generous. Things like interest on credit card debt or business bank account fees/costs are deductible for a business, but not personal taxes. Travel and entertainment business deductions over years have been tightened up. This was in response to media outrage over "three martini lunches" that supposedly executives were getting generous tax deductions on.

It is important to remember in grand scheme of things tax credits are worth more than deductions. You can have deductions up the whazoo and still owe plenty of business taxes. It is tax credits that enable big businesses to rack up huge earnings but pay nil or nothing in taxes.

Problem for many who start businesses is they often get carried away taking deductions; then something triggers IRS computers as being out of whack. That is when an audit can happen, and you better be able to back up all those deductions or else.

[QUOTE]You can deduct valid businesses expenses within the law

Well what on earth is the point of having an accountant if he's within the law?

Jokes aside, let's not sit here pretending the law is applied equally to rich and poor alike. If these people have enough money they can rent a shop to keep their plus one or offspring happy, they can pay enough for the accountants and lawyers needed to keep the tax authorities at bay - aided by the repeated cuts to tax enforcement budgets - despite the fact that it's shown the funding of high net worth enforcement departments was returned many times over.

R197, personal returns are separate from business returns. You can’t mix your data from business returns with your data for your personal returns, whether you’re filing separately or jointly.

I strolled by the Apthorp the other day, and it looked like it was about to be devoured by rats.

Oh and on the topic of Hudson Yards, the sight of people gaping at that pathetic stairwell to nowhere, taking selfies, is enough to send any self-respecting NY'er into a fit. WTF!! Jose Andres's Spanish market on the bottom floor is nice, tho. But you have to walk through a dead mall to get there. Depressing.

R201

Apthorp looks perfectly fine to me; darn better than it did in 1980's or before. They're still having problems moving those condo units, but that is another matter. Pre-war full Manhattan block courtyard building not withstanding, they are competing with tons of new luxury construction. That corner of Broadway and 79th wouldn't be my first choice if dropping serious coin on a new condo.

Now the Astor several blocks north at 86th is a whole other hot mess.

Doesn't Madonna live at the Apthorp?

True, those grand old buildings don't have the appeal that they used to. New construction, with all the modern amenities, are what people want now. Nobody ever thought the day would come when the grand buildings on 5th, Park, and elsewhere would be considered passé, but it finally happened. We've had a number of threads about this.

R204

No, Madonna owns a co-op at Harperley Hall on West 64th and Central Park West, and they probably would love to see the back of her.

More, and you now also understand why no UES co-op would allow Madonna in; this is one reason why she ended up buying that mansion on East 81st.

Fact that Madonna was allowed to buy a co-op on UWS shows vast difference just a few blocks east makes.

Does she also live in the mansion, or is that just an investment?

Yes, Madonna lives in that mansion, much to dismay of some of her UES neighbors.

[quote] Fact that Madonna was allowed to buy a co-op on UWS shows vast difference just a few blocks east makes.

She tried to get into the San Remo and they wouldn't have her.

"The Kabbalah Kween has long called Harperley Hall her New York City base, a second tier building on Central Park West where the material girl first purchased a co-operative apartment back when she was married to actor Sean Penn."

I love it!

Writer must be a member of DL, or maybe we should send an invite.

What a bunch of whining old farts who think the few years they spent in NYC was its heyday. As in my last post the only thing you could ever count on in NYC was change. The town has in the last 10 years become incredibly international. Whole new parts of the city developed. Drop in crime is not a bad thing. Too bad but gay is now mainstream and the ghettos disappearing- not edgy anymore but would you rather the good ole days of open homophobia forcing the ghettos and the bass arrests of the 50s and 60s, so edgy? It will continue to change as well. But it remains one of the worlds centers for the arts, finance, entertainment and Mecca for gay men and lesbians. I came of age in the 70s in NYC when gay night life never ended and edgy clubs and glamor was available every night all night every night. That changed and in its place is a much more homogenized nightlife somewhat segregated by economics and age. Better? worse? Neither- different as NYC has been since the 1600’s as a Dutch colony to now, a truly international metropolis. Get over it. There are lots of great places to live- NYC is one of them and I have never, ever been bored in an entire lifetime.

R212=Chamber of Commerce.

[quote]and Mecca for gay men and lesbians.

Not for the younger generations, if they're parents can't afford it for them.

If THEIR parents...

They uptown (Innwood), Harlem, Brooklyn and Queens- even the Bronx and the lower East Side. There are young gay men all over the place in NYC. Clearly you don’t get around the city.

Have to agree with Charlie. It’s changed - but it’s still good.. not as edgy or exciting but still filled with things to do.

r216 of course there are young gay men around the city, but the ones without family money can't afford to come there like they used to. It's a shame.

R142 Prague and the 60c beers have been a long memory since about 1998.

[quote]They uptown (Innwood), Harlem, Brooklyn and Queens- even the Bronx and the lower East Side. There are young gay men all over the place in NYC.

Hawt.

R86, r89, r96, r150, r166 et al (whom I suspect is the same person everywhere):

Your quoting method is very confusing. Please see the signature line below for proper DL quoting instructions. You’re welcome.

[quote]How many overpriced clothing stores do people really need? I walk down Bleecker Street and see store after store with no patrons. How do they stay open?

Same here in London and those fancy chocolate shops (I'm sure you must have them as well) - how on earth do THEY pay their rents? Chocolate money?

"not as edgy or exciting but still filled with things to do."

Yeah, you can say that about every city really. NYC used to kind of be in a whole other category. But that's capitalism I guess.

I like being here because I can afford it. However, I'm not going to get all apoplectic defending it. Many of the dickheads I was running away from when I first moved here for college in the late 80s now kind of define the place. Bleah.

Barcelona still has a bit of a sexy subterranean vibe. And there are no basic bitches or tech bros. The people are really really sexy. El Born and Gracia are still a blast.

R222 There's always the possibility they're fronts for money laundering. Private Eye did an investigation and showed a lot of the tourist souvenir shops in central London are owned by the same group of Afghans, and they're using the shops to launder money. If it's happening at the low end of the market, why not the high end too?

r224, I think that's the case for some nail salons in NYC. Every corner has a nail salon and I can't imagine they make enough profit to afford some of the locations.

They are pricing the world out, making it so that, very soon, only the very rich will be able to afford anything. Going down a dark dark path

Here in London we have what we call "charity shops" everywhere - where you take the stuff you don't want any longer and they sell it on for charity. Often you have six or seven of these shops in some of the fanciest, priciest streets in London. Most of them are just full of junk no one wants...I often wonder how the fuck that works. I mean if stores that sell nice stuff can't afford the rent...

Then you have sad tales like this from today's NYT reminding us how easy it is for any NYer to slip through the cracks.

r228 what a sad story.

Yes, it is, but sadly hardly unique nowadays in NYC. Think of all those wonderful posessions given over to dumpster divers or now lying in a landfill somewhere; tragic.

One saving grace is that Paul Pannkuk had family and friends who got involved, even if things were left a bit late.

New York City is filled with persons who end up single in their middle-aged to senior years (never married, divorced, widowed, etc...) and often either are estranged from family and or out lived most or all of them. Then you have situations where friends have either died, moved away, pushed away, or simply weren't many from start. In short people living totally alone except for neighbors and perhaps others who give a damn (to various extent).

Long as people are able to function mentally and psychically they are for most part "fine"; but if any of that changes city can step in and petition courts to assign an administrator. This can be good and bad as law allows courts to "bill" person for said public administrator and whatever he/she orders done. That is where things can go wrong, people have had their assets drained, put into care homes, etc....

More:

Finally sad as above story was, there are worse, in particular what happens to inhabitants when they die alone.

Ironically what many have long prized about New York City, the ability to live anonymously and privately can come back to haunt them in end.

I think I remember meeting that guy. Lots of lonely old gay men drinking the day away in the Village. Or they move to Wilton Manors or Tampa/St Pete and do the same.

It’s a challenge for older gay men to stay connected. So easy to become and stay isolated. You see it here with all the people who “love” being alone. That’s fine - but if you want to avoid ending up like those people, you have to work at maintaining connections and give up your self centeredness and dislike of others. It’s not easy to maintain relationships.

R233

It goes both ways however; and if DL is any example you can see why so many elder gays end up alone. People can take bitchy old queen treatment (with or without being fueled by booze/drugs) in limited doses. After a while it gets tired or irritating and people just begin avoiding. Once that happens it is a trend that seems only to get worse as time passes. People stop calling or otherwise bothering and it soon becomes a habit; pretty soon person is dropped and not really given a sustained thought over increasingly longer periods of time.

Takes some effort to see the good over bad. For all his faults Paul Lynde had a close circle of friends who refused to give up , and they were ones who became concerned and eventually found him dead.

R234, well, I don’t know how concerned they were—they didn’t find him while he was alive.

"In January of 1982 Paul was supposed to do a television appearance at his house, and didn’t answer the phone or the door when the crew arrived. There was a delivered newspaper in the driveway. Later, other friends grew concerned and after a party, two of them went to Paul’s house to hear Paul’s dog going mental, and more papers in the drive. They drove to a phone booth and called police. Cops said they had to wait 48 hours to take action, Paul’s friends couldn’t wait. They broke in, setting off alarms (no one came). They found Paul, “in bed, lying on his back, his body twisted and his hand outstretched, reaching for a bedside panic button to alert his alarm service. His hair was neatly combed, and his blue eyes were wide open. The body was cold and stiff.”

They were concerned, but PL likely was already dead (from massive heart attack) long before that crew arrived at his house for a taping.

Party in question was given for PL's close friend Paul Barresi's birthday (12 January) which was held on night of 10th January IIRC. Next day they all went over to PL's home, and rest is as noted above.

Have had similar things happen in my area; middle aged person does not arrive at work, employer calls home and getting no response contacts NYPD to do a wellness check. Door is opened and usually a corpse is found of someone who had been dead for hours or days prior.

Wellness checks didn't really exist back then, and as noted above LE wouldn't bother going to PL's house until after 48 hours because they were following old missing person statues.

Just as with James Gandolfini and many others famous or not when a massive coronary event happens there isn't often much time to act. If you are alone usually wherever you "drop" is where they are going to find your body. This is why people need to know signs of a heart attack and not think it's just heartburn or something.

One million seems on low side for that part of Greenwich Village. But then again it was a ground floor apartment, and it is an older building.

Sad thing is that one million proceeds from apartment sale won't last forever with Mr. Paul Pannkuk in any halfway decent memory care/nursing home facility. The better ones are expensive, and even so so versions are costly as well.

There is the very real risk of outliving whatever funds pay for such care, then comes very hard choices such as going on Medicaid.

Agree R236. Studios in good buildings In WV sell for $1 million. A true 1 BR on that prime block should have been at least $1.5 million. Something is odd. Or the sister got suckered.

Also odd that the proceeds from apartment is all the money he has. Didn’t he have a 401k and a lot of other savings? If he really was the high flyer Wall Street player they made him out to be, he should have had at least $2.5 million - probably more. Which should be enough for a nice assisted living in Manhattan - not a discount senior home in Queens. Maybe the sister is being cheap and trying to save the inheritance for herself.

So interesting - it did sell for $1 million. But the one above it, 2A, sold for $2.2 million. Maybe worth a little more because of second floor and slightly better shape - but still, $1 million was a steal.

Each time read that story, especially ending want to just weep.

"Then, inevitably, that look of comfort shifted to one of urgency, and the room around him changed from comfortable studio to forbidding cell.

“You know, my apartment is in Manhattan,” he said. “I’d love to go home.”

Guy had everything, then one bad mishap after another robbed Mr. Pannkuk of his life.

As for what happened to his money or whatever see above posts about NY surrogate court and then consider following from article:

"After his arrest, Mr. Pannkuk was appointed a lawyer, and while the criminal charge was later dropped, the matter of what to do about Mr. Pannkuk lingered. In 2017, his case was referred to Surrogate’s Court, where he sat in silent bewilderment as his lawyer and representatives from the city and the Mental Hygiene Legal Service, which represents the disabled in need of care, discussed his future before a judge.

The primary obstacle to bringing Mr. Pannkuk the aid available to many New Yorkers was his wealth, as manifested in the apartment on Ninth Street. He had too much money to qualify for free assistance, and not enough for live-in care.

“There are a lot of difficulties going on in your life right now,” Judge Kelly O’Neill Levy told him in September 2017. “The court finds that the appointment of a guardian is necessary.”"

If this was just Mr. Pannkuk alone handling sale of his apartment he might have waited for a higher number; but once city, Surrogate's Court and an appointed legal guardian got involved what Mr. Pannkuk wanted was sort of last on their to do list.

Co-op wanted him out, court appointed guardian, city and Surrogate's court wanted to wrap things up quickly; that is move Mr. Pannkuk to a place deemed safe, and use his own money/assets to pay. It looks like a lesbian couple bought that apartment, and yes they got a deal likely because it was a "fire sale" price IMHO. None of interested parties (again city, court, appointed guardian) was interested likely in keeping listing going any longer than necessary to make a sale.

Each time read that story, especially ending want to just weep.

"Then, inevitably, that look of comfort shifted to one of urgency, and the room around him changed from comfortable studio to forbidding cell.

“You know, my apartment is in Manhattan,” he said. “I’d love to go home.”

Guy had everything, then one bad mishap after another robbed Mr. Pannkuk of his life.

As for what happened to his money or whatever see above posts about NY surrogate court and then consider following from article:

"After his arrest, Mr. Pannkuk was appointed a lawyer, and while the criminal charge was later dropped, the matter of what to do about Mr. Pannkuk lingered. In 2017, his case was referred to Surrogate’s Court, where he sat in silent bewilderment as his lawyer and representatives from the city and the Mental Hygiene Legal Service, which represents the disabled in need of care, discussed his future before a judge.

The primary obstacle to bringing Mr. Pannkuk the aid available to many New Yorkers was his wealth, as manifested in the apartment on Ninth Street. He had too much money to qualify for free assistance, and not enough for live-in care.

“There are a lot of difficulties going on in your life right now,” Judge Kelly O’Neill Levy told him in September 2017. “The court finds that the appointment of a guardian is necessary.”"

If this was just Mr. Pannkuk alone handling sale of his apartment he might have waited for a higher number; but once city, Surrogate's Court and an appointed legal guardian got involved what Mr. Pannkuk wanted was sort of last on their to do list.

Co-op wanted him out, court appointed guardian, city and Surrogate's court wanted to wrap things up quickly; that is move Mr. Pannkuk to a place deemed safe, and use his own money/assets to pay. It looks like a lesbian couple bought that apartment, and yes they got a deal likely because it was a "fire sale" price IMHO. None of interested parties (again city, court, appointed guardian) was interested likely in keeping listing going any longer than necessary to make a sale.

Also a reminder that all the money in the world isn’t “safety”. . So many people work their ass because they are terrified of this happening - and it can happen anyway.

That’s why I stopped working a miserable job I hated just to save money for some vague future fearful event - that might happen anyway. Unlike him, not working suits me perfectly and I’m taking better care of myself by not working the high powered, well paid job. But you have to accept that your importance is not your your job and money - which goes against the NY ethos.

The gay village in Montreal is pretty old school NYC. But they are starting to build condos on that street. I'm scared. They are going to ruin one of the last great places on Earth. NYC officially died by 2010 after already being in the process. When I visit, I'm bored out of mind.

R243

Yes, it is true that all money in world cannot prevent what happened to Mr. Pannkuk, but it can cushion the effects.

Mr. Pannkuk was fortunate in that he had "wealth" as Surrogate's Court saw it; which is why he was placed in what seems to be a decent memory care place out in Queens. True it isn't Manhattan, but OTOH likely far better than anything for people strictly on Medicaid.

If the man had serious resources he could have remained in his apartment with an army of 24/7 care givers. Ironically Medicaid will pay for round clock home health aides, but Medicare doesn't (or only a limited amount), and often same for private insurance unless special policies have been taken out.

Despite the appalling abuse by her son Brooke Astor remained at home until end of her life. It was the son's worries about all that expense (IIRC) that was part of his scheme that lead to abuse of his mother.

I would rather be in assisted living in Texas than Queens. Yes having money saved him from the worst of the NYC nursing homes. But even a decent one in Queens doesn’t pay people a good salary for NYC - so you are stuck with unhappy, relatively poorly paid caretakers. In Texas, caretakers can make $50,000 year and feel very comfortable and happy - which affects how they treat patients.

A non-Medicaid nursing home in Queens is worse than a lot of Medicaid nursing homes in cheaper COL areas. IMO and experience. He would have been better off being moved to the Midwest where he could possibly even get in-home care 24/7 for less than a nursing home in Queens - a world away from his old life in Manhattan and equally trapped.

What makes you think nursing homes/memory care/assisted living in Manhattan pay any better than in Queens, Bronx, Brooklyn or Staten Island? Because it just isn't true.

Nursing assistants, heath aides, etc.. all are paid shitty wages for work they do. Better ones who land union jobs (1199 is dominant) in hospitals or other care facilities do slightly better than say home help caregivers, but you're still looking at $25k per year to maybe a bit under $45k, which is not a livable wage for NYC.

Live on UES and am surrounded by hospitals, nursing homes, memory care facilities, etc... They all have same demographic for nursing assistant staff; mostly all minority women (African-American, Caribbean, etc...).

Forgot link

Nursing care is so much better outside NYC. I used to want to stay in NYC for the top notch hospitals and highly ranked medical specialists. But having spent time in a few NYC hospitals - as well as non-NYC hospitals - I decided I’d rather be in a slightly lower ranked hospital but have actual care in a city other than NY.

Every time I was in NYC hospitals, I had to wait forever to be seen in an ER (including with a heart issue), I was left on a stretcher in a corridor for at least an hour with no blanket or privacy, shared a room with a loud, crazy drug addict or crazy old person, was ignored by nursing staff who were overwhelmed with too many patients and generally had a hellish experience. Outside of NYC, the ER acted like an emergency unit - immediate attention, tests, heart monitoring, IVs - the nurses were attentive and caring, I had my own room, and felt there was organization and procedures to protect patients.

The last straw was a visit to NYU ER for heart issue. After 15-20 minutes I was seen. Lost in shuffle with no info on what was happening. Wheeled into a curtained off area. 15-20 minutes later a young on-call doctor came in who had clearly been out on town and had drinks. He frantically was reviewing notes and prepping. After 5-10 minutes, I heard him start yelling at nurses “why are we about to do emergency surgery on this guy - he is not having a heart attack”. The overwhelmed staff mistakenly thought I had a major heart issue and called this heart surgeon in to do emergency catheter/blockage treatment. He was about to start it. I am now terrified of NYC hospitals and feel like I need to get OUT of NYC to get decent medial care.

R249 - yeah, this idea that everyone has access to the top, elite doctors in Manhattan is ridiculous. So is the idea that there are not good or great doctors around the country.

Yup, r250... you’re better off in the Boston, Philadelphia, or Pittsburgh area, which have a ton of medical feeder schools and much better hospitals.

“ yeah, this idea that everyone has access to the top, elite doctors in Manhattan is ridiculous”

I don’t think it’s “elite” so much as it is proximity. But I get it.

You know, everyone was shitting on the capital region but my partners family is up there and he got rushed to the hospital Thanksgiving night with severe pneumonia. The staff were fabulous...totally on it and attentive. He got amazing care. As he did with follow up visits.

Again. It’s cheap. Lots of ex NYC people including a ton of gays. 2.5 hours on Amtrak to the city and AirBnBs are very reasonable. Many of my friends who moved from the city do weekends there every few months. For all of the debate going on here it’s almost a no-brainer.

Yeah Philly, Boston, Houston - and Cleveland - hospitals are much better for care. And their research, trials and specialities are as good. NYC health care is over rated. I need to figure out how to get Health care in on of those cities - as much as I do like living in NYC otherwise.

Cleveland ranked No. 1 nationally for access to health care, according to Vitals.com, a doctor review site. The city was highly ranked because of the large number of primary care physicians and hospitals per city resident and ease of scheduling appointments, among other factors.

Cleveland Clinic’s heart program has ranked No. 1 in the nation since 1995. Five other Cleveland Clinic specialties are ranked in the Top 5.

I you want health care facilities and inexpensive cost of living.............

Another reason to like Cleveland. It really is an unrecognized gem (well, maybe that’s an overstatement) of the Midwest. I could totally see living there.

NYC is dead. It's full of some the worst people on this planet. GET OUT and get some fresh air where the people are nicer and the boys are way hotter.

[quote] called this heart surgeon in to do emergency catheter/blockage treatment.

Heart surgeons don’t do that. Cardiologists do. It’s called interventional cardiology.

[quote] He was about to start it.

No he wasn’t. They don’t do that in the ER.