Frank Beaty's Brent / Marian: would a 21st century audience have been more receptive?

Thanks for starting the thread.

Today, there would be outrage with people calling it a transphobic storyline having a cross-dressing man be a kidnapper and killer.

And lets be honest, it was an exploitative storyline even in 1995. It was well done and compelling. But exploitative nonetheless.

I doubt the Brent/Marian storyline could ever get on the air in 2020. At least not the way it was written 25 years ago. There would be protests as soon as trans activists got wind of it. Rightly so.

Aunt Liz, could you or ORD please let the last thread know this one has been created.

Well, if Marian Crane had to kill off one of the Coopers, I'd rather it have been Buzz than Nadine.

Don't get me wrong, Nadine was expendable, but she was enjoyable.

Buzz on the other hand was just a waste of air time. Very expendable. I know Justin Deas has multiple Emmys from multiple shows. I'm not disputing that Deas is a good actor. But Buzz added nothing to the show. He may have been there 17 years, until the bitter end, but he didn't contribute anything to the storytelling fabric. In my eyes, Buzz was a background character from the moment he arrived. An expensive background character, but a non essential one from the start.

Frank Beaty was cute and talented. It's too bad he didn't have more of an acting career after GL. He supposedly had breakdown at a pivotal part of the storyline and they had to do quick recast (forget his name, but he did a good job also) until Beaty was able to return.

Marc Wolf subbed for Beaty to finish off the story, r4.

I don't think Beaty ever returned. Brent was carted off the jail never to be heard of again right as the story concluded. Marc Wolf was playing the part when they took him to jail

R3, it's my understanding Ellen Parker was killed off as Maureen to open up money to hire Justin to come on as Buzz.

I couldn't stand him. The snorting, the laughing, the scenery chewing.

Couldn't stand him.

I wasn't opposed to killing Maureen. WOW what a story. It would have made more sense though to have used the money to bring back Claire, Michelle's birth mother, or have had Hope, Ed's niece, come home and act as a surrogate mother, sounding board.

Refresh my memory. Why did Holly kidnap everyone's children on GL back in the late 90s?

A primetime show couldn't get away with this storyline nowadays, let alone a daytime show.

[quote]Refresh my memory. Why did Holly kidnap everyone's children on GL back in the late 90s?

Lollll that storyline. Wasn't it to protect them all from their dysfunctional parents?

This blog posting discusses the Top 10 Character Assassinations in the history of GL.

Lists Holly Norris Lindsey as #1.

Holly was ruwhinned along with many other characters.

They forgot how to do GL a long time before it was axed.

The only good thing I can say is GL brought back a lot of old faves for the end.

A few more Bauers would have been nice and India. Von Halkein.

Brent/Marian was out of this world compelling. I do not see how anybody could get upset over this. He was a deranged rapist, a true misogynist, and when he was presumed dead, he disguised himself as a woman. So what? It was a disguise. It had nothing to do with Trans.

Everything about his story was actually compelling. I was surprised it was on daytime- it was scary, unnerving, funny as fuck (in a good way) and the actors gave great performances. Frank's Marian was often hysterical. It was all very entertaining.

What was the story with Rick Hearst and the Brent/Marian story?

R13 There were rumors about Hearst and Beaty.

Some said they were fucking, others said Beaty fell hard for Hearst. I think Hearst for sure was very supportive, friendly, etc. and helped Beaty when Beaty had his onset meltdown - the writing was just so fucking bizarre and going to dark places and Frank just lost it one day.

[quote]I do not see how anybody could get upset over this.

You obviously haven't ventured into the world of woke Twitter.

[quote] Ellen Parker was killed off as Maureen to open up money to hire Justin to come on as Buzz

It's not quite as linear as all that. This is one of those things that came down from CBS but got attached to a specific action, just like Pam Long was blamed for "killing" all the Bauers when she and Gail Kobe were fighting CBS suits who wanted ALL the Bauers gone.

For whatever reason, the suits at CBS did not like Parker. There was an interview with Ellen Dolan somewhere during her first run as Margo (and before Parker was fired) where she said someone from CBS was really eager for her to go back to play Maureen, because they didn't like Parker.

They didn't ever write well for Maureen during Parker's run, but when they did, Parker was amazing. She played really great stuff around Holly's return and almost broke up with Ed, but they reunited. Still, CBS persisted, and said that Maureen had to go, so they made the revelation of the Ed/Lillian affair Maureen's death. (Several interviews about this from Nancy Curlee, etc.)

Deas did start on GL in this time frame, but his pay was likely unrelated to Parker's leaving. He wasn't making THAT much, and I've read in several articles that he did GL because he was in debt and wanted financial security for his sons. GL was also kinda short on actors at this point - they'd lost Bev and were struggling with Mindys, Billys and a few other roles, so they weren't exactly cash poor when it came to the casting kitty.

(Now, Marcy Walker WAS a case of JFP forcing GL to pay an expensive pet of hers. THAT one is true.)

R15 I do I just ignore stuff like that.

R14 I really believe they may have slept together but not regularly. I think Frank fell hard for him, though. Yes, the story was very dark but I don't believe it caused Frank's problems. Likely, a little substance abuse with his feelings for Rick never being reciprocated contributed far more to his meltdown than the story.

Was he really taken by ambulance from the studio?

R17 Yes, supposedly they had to 5150 him at the hospital.

I admit I did not see the value in Ellen Parker until she died. Then it was crystal clear what role she played and it was a huge one- heart of the show. I know many who found her frumpy and dumpy and boring so I was not opposed to her being killed off until she actually was. They should have written better for her. The only time I saw any value in her before was with Roger.

He was 5150'd? Oh wow. He must have lost it. No way it was the story, as intense as it was. FB was sexyyyyyy.

Marcy Walker also had a MAJOR falling out with JFP after Jill lured Marcy to the east coast to join Guiding Light.

Marcy said that she was used by JFP when her (Jill's) job was in jeopardy,

General Hospital decided to bring back Luke & Laura - P&G hauled her JFP in a meeting and asked point blank, what are your plans to battle Luke & Laura (as Guiding Light aired opposite General Hospital) - the P&G people wanted a plan, and if they didn't get one, JFP was out

So for her own survival, JFP came up with Marcy Walker to battle Luke & Laura. By bringing in a big ticket like Marcy Walker, her own contract would get a pick-up by P&G - so after Marcy was brought on, JFP promptly forgot about her and let her languish on the back burner.

Marcy was pissed for being "used" like this

Writer Patrick Mulchaey said though he LOVED Ellen Parker as an actress, he agreed with the decision to kill her off. Because her death spun off a bunch of stories and let and affected many characters. It gave the show at least two years of good story.

Not that is Patrick saying this, not me.

I would have ultimately been more at peace with Maureen's death if all (or frankly, any) of the following had happened:

- Maureen's death bringing members of her family back in a logical way. Not the Faux Nola stuff we got eventually.

- Another "salt of the earth" character would have been introduced. (Meta eventually came on, but was rarely on and Mary Stuart died a few years later.)

- That Ed would have either explored a relationship wit Lillian or again with Holly, instead of Dr. Eve.

Clip from Frank Beaty Emmy Reel

Go to 1:23 into video

I'm pretty sure Frank Beaty did return to close out the storyline.

r24 He did after the climax was long over.

Early Phillip....yum

R25, he was actually the one who played the part when Brent was finally arrested.

Yeah, Beaty was gone for a few weeks right at the point where Brent and....Lucy? AM? were having the biggest showdown - was it in the lighthouse?

I just looked at YT and there's a bit of Marc Wolf, who filled in for FB, here around 4:00

Justin Deas had problems with the IRS. Hadn't disclosed all his income for years or something like that. Was in danger of facing jail time.

Joining GL in 1993 was to give him a steady income to pay back the IRS. As I recall, getting a steady gig was part the IRS settlement to avoid jail time. Part of his wages were garnished to pay the IRS.

Marc Wolf was not an ok replacement for Frank Beatty at the climax. They should have waited.

I agree with all of the Buzz chewing scenery comments. Both Deas as an actor and Buzz as a character just didn't fit with Guiding Light.

JFP had a hard-on for Deas for sure. Remember all those fantasy scenes from the 1940's and the night of the Fifth Street fire he got a monologue episode all to himself over protests from the entire writing team? Deas himself was none too thrilled.

Frank played Marian to perfection. She was nutty, funny, scary, menacing, grotesque, jealous, insecure.......I could watch it all day. GL has had some of the best "out there" story lines of all time- from /Solita to Brent/Marian- they had those classic twits and turns and some over the top moments but it was grounded and the acting was top-notch.

The scenes where Marian went after the sweet Susan Bates was horrifying. Luckily, she survived.

Didn't the Brent/Marian story conclude while Mike Bauer was in town visiting? I seem to remember all of the Bauers inside the lighthouse (including Meta), and something to do with the young angel in town (I forget his name) whom Meta remembered from when she was a child, something to do with a cousin named Mary who happened to look like Michelle. It was the only time that Mary Stuart had a real story and it looked like there was going to be some sort of a mystery of the early days of Papa Bauer in Springfield long before the radio series introduced them.

R34 I think your timeline is a little off, but I'm not sure.

I know Mike's return coincided with the show's 60th which was in 1997, and both Don Stewart and Beth Ehlers returned (for Beth, it became a somewhat permanent return).

I think the denouement of the Brent/Marian story was in spring 1996.

I can't exactly remember when Michelle/Zachary was, but I think it was after her romance with Jesse, so at least mid 1996.

Gah, I loved Mary Stuart as Meta. But P&G did the most P&G thing ever when they gave her a salute at the end of GL - they misspelled her name. Signs of things to come.

R35 You are right. (R34 here.). I checked IMDb for both Frank Beaty and Marc Wolf's stint on GL, and it ended in 1996. The episode I recall was in January of 1997 right before the revelation that Alexandra knew that Amanda was Brandon's daughter, not Alan's. (Another blatant destruction of GL history.....) I am not sure why they were in the lighthouse, but I thought it had to do with a kidnapping of some kind. I'm sure someone will remember and post the situation in a way that makes sense. Now that I recall, Rick Hearst had left and there was another Alan Michael Spaulding (Michael Dietz, later of "Port Charles"). Lucy & Alan Michael really had little story after Hearst left and they were quietly written out. I think Zachary quietly vanished at this point or shortly after. Soap Central's Michelle Bauer bio indicates that there was a story involving the lighthouse and Zachary and a storm, but it is very badly written.

r36 Lucy and Alan Michael were written out because Michael Dietz was no Rick Hearst.

Dietz was a weak actor and couldn't convincingly play the part. But then Hearst set the bar so high, no one could match his performance.

[quote]But P&G did the most P&G thing ever when they gave her a salute at the end of GL - they misspelled her name. Signs of things to come.

r35 Yes, that pretty bad. Someone asleep at the wheel. Not a surprise given that it was P&G.

But its not the first time it has happened. When actor Jon-Erik Hexum died after accidentally shooting himself in the head with blank bullets in 1984, he was the star of a detective show on CBS called Cover Up. At the end of his final episode, Cover Up did an on-screen tribute, but misspelled his name John Eric Hexum.

Smell me, bitches.

Smell the fabulousness!

"And now my darlings, prepare to die!"

She was campy but I loved her in small doses, especially as Carrie, when she was telling the trampettes of the moment (Michelle, Marina, et al) how dreadfully dull they were!

How fabulous was Susan Piper, running through the spider infested caves of Barbados, fully made up and in heels. That's the last you saw of Susan when she toppled into the boiling quicksand was her heels sticking up. When Carrie Nye returned as Caroline Carruthers, she was given the same gun.

I may have rewound a particular part of this episode a few times on our VCR...oh, especially right around 6:00

The best of Susan Piper in 5 1/2 minutes. I love Warren Burton at the very end with Reva, simply looking on at the departed Susan and blurting out, "Snob!"

Carrie hadn't changed much over 20 years, looking exactly the same as Caroline Carruthers. Why they never tied the two women together as relatives is beyond me. The only difference is that Caroline/Carrie didn't die. She fell through a hole that lead to the river at the carnival but turned up a while later, wounded, but determined to kill Reva. Too bad Reva didn't ask her at some point, "Are you related to someone named Susan Piper?" Imagine Carrie's response, "One and the same, dahling, one and the same."

Well, something about her made GL want to do the same story twice.....the group of men who may have been responsible for a death - with her somewhere in the mix!

LOL, R39. No fake smoking there! She inhales *deeply* and *passionately*.

R48 The second story was a remake of the 1983 Eli Sims/Annabelle story featuring the younger members of each of the same families. From H.B., Brandon, Henry and Bill to Josh & Billy, Alan and Ed. Too bad Quint wasn't around. He could have represented Henry's family. Carrie Nye was the only thing good about that story (other than the carnival set), especially as R41 said, telling off the younger women for their obsession with social media. They were indeed, bores!

Does anyone know whatever happened to Frank Beaty? Slim pickings online.

He is (technically) on Twitter, though he made a few posts & then disappeared.

just watched a clip of GL over in the another world thread, When Mindy started going out with Nick, she did bring up the fact that he looked just like Lujack(which I'm assuming she would have known through Beth but a little fuzzy on that era)

Yes, that was the first meeting they had. I think when Nick first arrived, he was coming to cover a story. I think he *just* missed Alex at the airport, but Mindy saw him.

Ah, this is the bit I remembered but couldn't find for years.

After she reads Roger to filth, Alex says "Let's eat...I'm ravenous!" It's just so shady!

And Maureen - well, not exactly standing up for him, but telling Ed the attack made her sick.

Okay, found the episode.

In screen time this happened a few weeks after Alex and Roger at the country club. Mallet and Mindy had gone to NYC to find Francesca and Mallet's sister Julie (zzzzz on both stories).

Mindy comes back and sees Nick in the airport, and thinks he's Lujack.

OMG. That episode (at R 54).

Another one where Bev goes from A to Z. Vulnerability to ice.

It is truly a travesty that she never won an Emmy.

thanks r52 and r54

still so weird that Beth and Nick never even met

How could they not bring Beth back for a 6 week story arc to have her interact with Nick? It could have made for some real drama with Mindy. Beth and Lujack were insanely popular yet when his twin shows up, Beth is off the show and as soon as he leaves, she comes back. Never once crossed paths!

R56 R57

I know!

Listen, there are five or six recurring things that show up in over 50 percent of the P&G threads. Along with "Bev vs Marj" and "I liked Sherry better than Liz Keifer", the "How could Phillip and Beth completely miss seeing Nick?" is right up there. Especially when Nick left and Phillip came back literally in the same week.

Martha's 2001 Emmy reel for her incredible year 2000. Shame that the show could not keep the momentum very long.

R58 Hold on- did Beth ever mention Nick? Please tell me they at least had a passing reference!

How could you have one of your most popular super couples ever and not have his twin meet the love of his brother's life?

I read they were going to bring Lujack back. Apparently, he was shipped off by the Infinity group to a prison in Asia. He heard Beth was dead (in 1986) and never tried to escape. He saw her in a newspaper as the Princess of San Cristobel (I hated to type that island's name) and vowed to escape to find her.

R60 Nope. Once he left it was as if he never existed.

R61 Come on. She never once, in a line, reference Nick? I thought she did but it was in such a passing way it might as well have not been uttered. Can anybody confirm Beth never even mentioned Nick or he was mentioned in her presence?

I'm in shock TBH. This is classic soap 101.

R16, interesting stuff; I find it odd that the suits at CBS had a problem with Parker. ever show needs a matriarch; someone who can listen to the kids and their problems; Bert, essentially. Ada from AW; Ruth Martin from AMC; Nancy or Kim on ATWT;

GL did NOT fill this void when Maureen was killed off.

When Claire, Michelle's birth mom, finally came back years and years later, she said she had tried to see Michelle but Ed wouldn't let her. BULL. that never happened; Plus, these were the BAUERS. Hope and Mike were in Zurich (how do I know that? if it's right) when Maureen died, okay. Then have Hope come on to check on Ed and Michelle and plop her in the Bauer kitchen.

As for Deas, he was totally miscast as Frank's father. He chewed more scenery than anyone in the history of daytime. Yes, he won all those Emmys. And Beverlee had zero.

These shows survived when you had someone in charge like Doug, Pam or Bill or Aggie who CARED about the characters. Once they were gone, it all fell apart and all we have are memories and youtube.

of course they move Ed onto a relationship with Eve; that didn't work; they killed her off.

Ed leaves. they bring Maureen back as a ghost; I guess GL got new suits.

At least the series ended with Ed and Holly, Maureen and Roger being dead, going off to see the world.

I know the shows couldn't carry huge casts or be encased in amber forever.

But too often they invented new characters and/or retconned something when the existing character or story would have worked great.

A new viewer is going to be interested if it's a good character, good actor, or good story.

As someone who started watching circa early/mid 80s, I knew nothing of Roger/Holly when they came back and/or started to be discussed - Holly appearing not long after it was revealed who Blake was. And I was fascinated with her. She was so quiet and yet so stunning. I was so intrigued.

But at the end, it's almost like they wanted to make it all as simple as possible, as if taxing anyone's brain cells for two seconds would scare them away. So sad.

I do not recall Beth ever mentioning Lujack after she returned from the dead in 1989. Similarly, I do not recall her ever mentioning Nick after she returned to town in Nov 1997.

However, I do recall that Phillip mentioned Nick once to Alexandra. It was a passing reference trying to pick up her spirits about something. As I recall, this refernce was either shortly before and shortly after Nick's Christmas visit in 1996, the one where Phillip was back living in Springfield during the period Nick was visiting, yet the two never shared any scenes. Nor was there even a reference to Nick and Phillip interacting offscreen during that Christmas visit.

All that said, when Rick Bauer returned to Springfield in 1994 and met Nick for the first time, one of his first comments was that Nick really did look like Lujack.

There's the further confusion that the recurring Santa Claus character that visited Beth and Phillip several times over the years (first when they were on the run in NYC) was also named Nick, as well.

R58 In reference to the still on-going debate of "Bev. vs. Marj", I liked both of them equally. When Marj had great material, she was just as much of a powerhouse as Beverlee was. They were both grand dames of CBS in the mid 1980's when Bev came on as Alexandra while Marj was really stunning as Myrna Clegg on "Capitol". I recall a preview that showed Marj as Myrna doing something fabulously diva-ish, then the announcer says, "And on Guiding Light", and there is Bev doing something equally powerful and commanding. I always liked Marj as a person because she comes off as the anti-diva "Diva", while Beverlee was definitely the Garbo of daytime. Perhaps if Marj had a bit more of a mystique, she would have played the badly written moments differently, but the writers knew that she always commanded every scene she played as evidenced in interviews during her time. Beverlee could walk into a room and if you were her enemy, she could make you pee your pants, while when Marj walked in, you expected her to grab the first handsome man and start dancing with them. Perhaps that isn't what Alexandra Spaulding should be, but there were so many facets to Alex that you could imagine her going from taking down a business rival at work then going bowling and drinking beer to celebrate. I couldn't see Iris doing that, let alone Myrna Clegg.

The only recasts on daytime I've ever really disliked were Philece Sampler as Donna on "AW" and Elaine Princi as Linda on "DOOL", not that they gave lousy performances, but because Philece was closer to Nicole than Donna and Margaret Mason as Linda was not only different in looks but in spirit as well. Margaret's performance as Eve Howard during her psycho days was as scary as any villain could be even though in real life she was as gentle as a lamb (and once thought of being a nun!). Robin Mattson comes close as Delia on "RH". I like her, but she's quite the opposite of either Ilene Kristen or Randall Edwards.

R58 You've covered most of that debate.

A few people just didn't like Marj. I thought she did wonderfully in the early years, but the show missed what Alex was about and Marj perhaps leaned into the insanity (humor was her strength) or just wasn't directed well. I blame the show, not Marj, but it was sad to see. It took until near the end for the old Alex to really return.

I meant R68 covered the repeatedly revisited debate!

[quote] Would today's more T-positive culture have been a better one for Brent / Marian?

Oh, no. GL was *just* on the side of bad taste when they did this originally. In today's atmosphere it would definitely be seen as transphobic.

R59: "And then your mother, Big Lou, comes back from Paris with these knock-out earrings for me-- for you-- and she's apologizin', she's fallin' all over herself, 'I'm so sorry, Lily, I know ya hate presents.' Ya hate presents?!"

If that wasn't Lily in a nutshell! Great writing and great performance from Martha.

Quelle scandalous!

From the Frank Grillo and Actress Wendy Moniz Divorce After 19 Years of Marriage thread: Honestly, I'm shocked it lasted this long. Two horn dogs who would have sex in the GL dressing rooms (just ask Hunt Block) despite both being married to other people at the time, and besides, he was just a rebound from another (also-married) GL actor she'd just finished sleeping with and fatal-attractioning.

I want to know who Wendy slept with before Frank on set, though I'm guessing it's Kurt McKinney.

The P&G soaps always had those backstage affairs. Later on it was Beth Ehlers breaking up Rob Bogue's marriage, and then Bogue breaking up with her for Mandy Bruno.

Frank Grillo & Wendy Moniz were considered a "super-couple" whose chemistry was off the charts on Guiding Light

Then all of a sudden they had new head writers James Harmon Brown and Barbara Esensten

Then suddenly the threw Hart with Cassie and made Dinah the "third wheel" with her scheming desperately trying to break them up

Such a weird turn of event.

R75 you would be correct. On and off for at least 6 months, until he gave her the get lost speech and pulled the plug in October 1996. She was in bed with Grillo not soon after.

R76 I think it was also partially Grillo and Moniz wanted to be paired with other people and not playing goody two shoes characters. The move to pair Hart and Cassie turned Dinah back into a psycho. But I agree, the pairing was just odd, even from a physical perspective. I remember in one scene he's in the shower and thinks Cassie is getting in with him, only to have it be Dinah, or something like that. Wouldn't he be able to tell rather easily? Cassie's a foot taller and had enough hair for 12 people. If I had that sneak up on me I'd notice it, versus a more petite person.

Laura Wright who played Cassie also thought the whole pairing of Hart & Cassie was strange, as they were suddenly pushed as this new "Super Couple"

I actually don't dislike Laura Wright all that much but the way that Cassie was forced on the GL audience just made me very sick of her.

I didn't find much of her stay on GL to be very interesting, except for when she was with Edmund, and when Reva pulled the plug on Richard. But she was overexposed with Hart, and her romances with Bradley Cole's characters were both tiresome.

I'll never tire of saying "But Reva already HAD a sister."

I remember Cassie as Reva's sister was originally a way for Kim Zimmer to play a dual role. When they couldn't tape up her face enough to pass her for a 20-year old, they decided to hire an actor for the part. Then the idea of the clone was born as the vehicle for Zimmer's second character.

Ah yes. When Zimmer returned the dual character was part of the contract negotiations.

They should have given Kim a character like Marian to play. They could have really disguised her well. But no, they thought of the dumbest stories for her after that.

I'm just floored by the Beth/Nick stuff. Imagine the story that could have generated!

[quote]When Zimmer returned the dual character was part of the contract negotiations.

Was it Kim or the show that wanted it?

Kim wanted it. I think she fancied that she'd somehow become a David Canaryesque beloved character again because of a dual role.

Alexandra's male assistant in at least one episode (when Joan Collins played Alex) was named "Nick" -- distracting.

GL would have gotten a lot of mileage out of a reunited Phillip and Beth meeting Nick and his wife Susan; she's dying and she asks Beth to take care of Nick. Beth falls in love with him, but he's not Lujack so he just doesn't connect to her.

Beth calling Mallet to come back to break up Harley and Phillip was the wrong call; she should have called Alan-Michael.

A-M barely being mentioned during the whole Phillip/Harley years was just dumb.

These shows didn't care to hire writers who could keep a through line and the fans left and the shows ended.

Sad.

I give Joe Wilmore major props for when he was producer.

In 1986, he brought back Chris Bernau (Alan), Peter Simon (Ed), Robert Newman (Josh), and - thank you!! -- Grant Aleksander (Phillip).

This really rejuvenated the series. When Pam Long came back in 1987, these four fine actors were in place and stories could kick in.

Whereas in 1992-94, Jill brought on a slew of Santa Barbara people -- Justin Deas, Marj, Marcy Walker -- IMHO none of them ever worked out.

In 1993, GL and GH were opposite each other - Tony and Genie had returned to GH. Did GL reach out to Zimmer and ask her back as Reva? Nah. We got Tangie Hill.

[quote] When Zimmer returned the dual character was part of the contract negotiations.

the dual characters appeared in 1998 - three years AFTER she had already been on the show!

I never heard that it was part of her contract negotiations to return. She came back in 1995 and the whole thing with Cassie started about August 1997, if I'm not mistaken. It was her and Paul Rauch that talked about the dual role, and when she couldn't be convincing as a 20-year-old with her face and boobs taped up, the idea for the clone was born.

Kim Zimmer used to save up her own piss and rub it all over her face and claimed it made her look young. Robert Newman hated kissing her on screen. Zimmer’s piss facials made the set smell like a nursing home. One time she dropped a whole jar and spilled it on her dressing room floor.

[quote] . It was her and Paul Rauch that talked about the dual role

If you know anything about Paul Rauch, you know that he DOES NOT accept actors pitching or dictating storyline. Even Erika Slezak wouldn't be able to get away with that,

btw Kim Zimmer will be a regular on Crytsal Chappel web series "Venice"

The dual role was part of Zimmer's contract discussions. Whether she had it put into writing or not, not 100 percent sure.

The original idea was for her to have had a twin, but the Reva/Annie story heated up after Zimmer's permanent return. They changed it to a new sister, then that evolved into Cassie. Cassie was originally supposed to show up earlier and be part of a story with Alan, but was rewritten to become part of the end of the Annie story. (The Annie as Reva's sister was a total red herring)

The clone story came from CBS. They wanted something outlandish to capture attention. Neither Rauch nor Brown/Esensten wanted it to happen. Zimmer was ambivalent about that PARTICULAR dual role.

These bits of info have been in various interviews over the years.

[quote] The dual role was part of Zimmer's contract discussions.

Again NO ONE tells Paul Rauch what story gets approved. PERIOD

[quote] Cassie was originally supposed to show up earlier and be part of a story with Alan, but was rewritten to become part of the end of the Annie story. (The Annie as Reva's sister was a total red herring)

Oh Laura Wright did show up earlier - like ONE YEAR before Cynthia Watros left - a year in advance is NOT the end of the Annie story (as Watros wasn't even in contract negotiations yet)

So another hole in your story.

[quote] Again NO ONE tells Paul Rauch what story gets approved. PERIOD

Yes, you've said that twice now.

However, Kim's original return contract was signed when Michael Laibson was still EP. Additionally, the network and/or P&G did some ofthe reaching out with Zimmer directly

The point is, it was a carrot dangled in front of her to entice her to return.

[quote] Oh Laura Wright did show up earlier - like ONE YEAR before Cynthia Watros left - a year in advance is NOT the end of the Annie story (as Watros wasn't even in contract negotiations yet)

The end of the Annie story = Annie getting caught for her misdeeds.

is there some particular reason you're being a huge cunt about this?

R96 because actors don't dictate story, especially with a control freak producer like Paul Rauch, who considers actors as cattle.

But Kim wasn't dictating story. I know in at least two interviews it was mentioned that a dual role was part of her contract discussions.

There are plenty of things discussed in negotiations that the shows ultimately do not provide to the actors. But it WAS discussed.

And I agree re: Rauch, but as mentioned above, he WAS NOT THE EP WHEN ZIMMER INITIALLY RETURNED.

WAS.

NOT.

[quote] I know in at least two interviews

Then provide the link

I blocked that person.

Clearly stirring up shit.

And someone who thinks a link to a 1996 Soap Opera Weekly article would be on line is...not all together there in the head.

R100 can't back up what he is saying with proof - so he blocks instead

You also have to realize how close Zimmer and Rauch were, to the point where they and their respective partners would vacation together. At the time she was in the magazines regularly critiquing story and announcing her opinion of how the story was going, basically going where no other actor would or could dare to go. There were rumors that they were sleeping together, since nothing else explained the blind devotion.

R102 had no idea!

To readers, Zimmer just seemed impossible to please. She'd always have one of two things to say:

I don't have any/enough story!

and

I hate my story!

Sometimes she'd say how much she liked a story, then two months later tell the same magazine how awful it was.

This picked up steam in the Wheeler years, and maybe for understandable reasons - lots of frustrations about the beginnings of the end.

And the soap press at the time was also a crap shoot, jeering stories anonymously (i.e. telling the truth) and then cheering them under their own bylines (i.e. to keep the studios happy). The columnists were such jokes that if anyone paid attention to them and gave them interviews/blind items (which especially Zimmer did) you had them in your back pocket.

I think it was Daytime TV that would give thoughtful, well reasoned, and sometimes harsh critiques of the shows. Then something happened, maybe in the 90s, when the magazines just became PR arms of the soaps. I think it was around this time that the shows closed ranks and iced out any magazines that would give negative coverage.

the problem is the mags wanted to be all things: a critique, a preview, features, photo-features, recaps....

In fairness to the shows, they'd be like wait; you want to put on your cover this story you JUST trashed? Another problem with the magazines in the 90s was the time between when they'd come out and what they could spoil. I have visited many major cities that have those big newsstands that take up half a block (or used to). Mags that are supposed to come out on Monday are available on newsstands the previous WEDNESDAY and if a major holiday is on Wednesday then those same mags can be available on Tuesday -- that's almost a week before they're supposed to come out.

The shows should have laid the law down and said no more previews, but they were all so desperate to get a cover or get publicity they gave the cow away.

There should have been ONE publication that only stuck to reviews and then did whatever the shows would provide. But once the shows were like you can't interview so and so if you trash us, then we'll pull the previews.

It was all ass-backwards.

Here's another problem: giving away story was a no-no. I get that. But if a mainstream outlet wanted to do a story, they'd give the farm away. Guess what, folks? If you give your story away to soap fanzine dot come it's the same as giving it away to the NY Times.

It ruins the ending.

The soap press was awful. In the Roscoe Born thread, someone ran an editorial he wrote and he was right - the soap press, such as it was, was just dreadful.

Weekly was the best it ever got, and they had writers that treated soaps seriously, at least for a while.

and yes R107 reminds me I needed to add 'Mimi Torchin Killed the Soaps" to my list at R58!

R106 funny thing is, I used to shop at the stores where I knew the new issues would be out on the racks on Thursday or Friday, when they really weren't meant to hit the streets until at least the following Monday.

[quote]Weekly was the best it ever got, and they had writers that treated soaps seriously, at least for a while.

I've seen '70s-era soap mags that featured in-depth critical reviews along with the usual puff pieces. Could be that there were so many soaps back then none of them could afford to close themselves off from any publicity.

Wrong thread, sorry! haha

I loved the Daytime TV polls in the 1970's and 80's which had a listing of "honorable mentions", where supporting characters often got mentioned. During the heyday of "GH", pretty much every actress from the show got listed, from Genie, Leslie C., Denise and Jackie down to Norma Connelly, Susan Brown, Rachel Ames and on occasion, even Emily McLaughlin, long after she had been relegated to back burner. Even Susan Pratt was a regular, and did get in the top 10 for her virginal Annie role long before she became slutty as Claire on "GL" and Barbara on "AMC".

I started as a soap fan in the 80s and only ever really read Digest and Weekly. The other mags always seemed like more promotional rags to me.

Back then there'd also be Miss Logan in TV Guide, plus Lynda Hirsch and a few others answering questions in newspapers and/or appearing on local talk shows, etc.

Spoilers were one of the main things that led to the ratings decline of all soaps.

Soaps were all about building excitement and suspense so viewers would tune in tomorrow. When I can read about what's going to happen next week in the soap mags, why should I tune in tomorrow?

Shows started releasing spoiler in 1989. From my understanding, that was at the prompting of the people behind the then new soap magazine, Soap Weekly.

Now, that said, Soap Weekly was my favorite soap mag. I devoured it every week. The mag treated soaps with respect. It offered some smart and thought provoking commentary and essays. They treated the readers with dignity and respect.

[quote] Now, that said, Soap Weekly was my favorite soap mag. I devoured it every week. The mag treated soaps with respect.

Yes!!!

I subscribed to a weekly newsletter Soap Opera Now. If it didn't come on time on Saturday I was pissed! That was a good publication!

wasn't that typed R116

R108, Weekly was the best but Mimi killed them?

how can that be?

I loved Soap Opera NOW! Daytime TV circa 1978 and, at times, Digest.

I wonder if Frank Beaty has a hairy hole.

It appears that Datalounge PrimeTime continues. I'm a paying member, so I can't be sure its Primetime. I can only surmise its been Primetime for the past several days since there has been so little activity on this thread lately.

So, I'm calling on the paying members to do their part to keep this thread going. Start conversations! Chat with us about your AW memories! And keep the conversations going!!!

In my opinion, the most overrated character on GL was Buzz Cooper.

Justin Deas may have been a great actor, but he didn't contribute much of anything to GL. Other that chewing scenery and being the reason we had to endure the character of Lucy Cooper, Buzz didn't do much for the show.

The most overrated characters to me were Jeffrey O'Neill (male) and Cassie (female).

I liked Buzz when he was introduced, but definitely agree that he was overrated during the years he was eating the show. And I'll add Lucy as an overrated character, who seemed to exist to act as a Harley substitute (and a bad one at that).

Another vastly overrated actor was Bradley Cole.

I was so thankful when we finally were rid of his Prince Richard in 2002, complete with Rick receiving his heart.

Then a year later, John Conboy brings him back as a new character! Then we had six more years of Jeffrey O'Neil!!

ARGGGGG.

Yes, Liz!

And I didn't mind him tremendously as Richard, just the dumbness of the royal story. It's almost as if TPTB said "If you hate THIS, wait until you see how much you hate what's coming!"

The way John Conboy brought Bradley Cole and then wrote the entire show around him (!!!!) including have women throwing themselves at him, Cole must have been giving Conboy blowjobs on a daily basis. Maybe even hourly.

If rumor is to be believed blow jobs were certainly in play when Marty West was cast.

Undoubtedly a nice person but dimmer than an elevator button light.

1996 Emmy race featuring Frank Beaty, Jerry Ver Dorn and several others.

I think Ver Dorn was the right choice that year actually.

And when Beth started throwing herself at Jeffrey O'Neil. Come on. Get real.

Beth, you've got better taste than that. You've had Phillip's filet mignon, you've had Bill Lewis's sirloin, now you're going for Jeffrey O'Neil's ground round?!?!

And then, after that, to go to Alan....blech.

[quote]Cole must have been giving Conboy blowjobs on a daily basis. Maybe even hourly.

Miss Teschmacher, page Bradley Cole. Have him come to my office. He's late for my 3 p.m. blowjob.

I wish I'd been hired to give Robert Newman and/or Grant their 3 p.m. blowjobs

[quote]give Robert Newman and/or Grant their 3 p.m. blowjobs

You'd have to be Deep Throat to handle all of Grant's schlong.

I'll make sacrifices R132!!

I love how when Jerry Ver Dorn wins Wendy Moniz tries to put her octopus arms around him, as if he's not going to want to hug his wife first. And then he just walks off. I always heard that ver Dorn was no fan of hers,

R134, I noticed that, too; for cripes' sake it's the actor's moment!

Let them hug who THEY want to hug.

When Zimmer won her first Emmy in 1985, O'Leary gives her a big hug and in in 1987 when she won her second, Grant just politely stands, applauds and doesn't go in for the hug.

here's the second win; Zimmer practically apologizes for winning; she says 1986 sucked but 1987 is back on track.

She was correct. Quite correct, in fact.

By the summer Pam Long was back writing and things were going in a great direction.

love her hair

La Hubbard DID deserve the Emmy for that 1987 season.

R138, yes for the year 1986

I’d have made it a tie with Kathryn Hays

And I love Zimmer

I don't think that actors watch each other so it becomes a popularity contest.

Actors on ABC probably didn't even watch Hubbard, Hays, etc.

It helps if you've been on multiple shows and have multiple friends.

From what I recall, in 2003, Bradley Cole was up for the role of Nick Marone on B&B, the part that Jack Wagner ultimately got. Cole was one of the finalists. My understanding is John Conboy, who had just taken over as EP of GL in early 2003, believing Cole had been super popular with the fans, swooped in and signed Cole back to GL to prevent him from going to B&B. He then instructed new HW Ellen Weston to create a James Bond type character for him. Thus we got Jeffrey O'Neil.

As for why we had to endure Jeffrey O'Neil for the next 6 years when it was obvious the character never really caught on, or belonged there, apparently that was because of a group of small but vocal Bradley Cole fans. A GL insider posted here at the time that one or more of those fans phoned GL each week demanding more screen time for Cole. Ellen Wheeler didn't want to upset this vocal fan base, so they kept writing story for him.

[quote]If rumor is to be believed blow jobs were certainly in play when Marty West was cast. Undoubtedly a nice person but dimmer than an elevator button light.

Given that Marty West now runs a reality show casting agency and hasn't held an acting job since leaving GL, I'd say Conboy was the only one who thought Marty had talent. At least acting talent.

He may have been quite talented in other areas. Such as giving blowjobs. In which case, casting is probably the right department for him.

LOL at the clip Liz shared. The way it's worded sounds like he was on the show until it was cancelled - instead of being fired 5 years earlier.

Shows should read their mail and get a feel for what fans are saying, but at the end of the day great storytellers go with their guts.

John Wesley Shipp told a story that CBS went to Doug Marland and said 'gee, Doug Cummings is popular! Is there a way to keep him? have someone else be the killer/Kim's stalker?' And he was like 'No! That is not the story!'

I call it the Barnabas Collins effect which really blew up during the Luke and Laura hysteria, imo. Characters who were meant to be short term villains would be kept around because they developed a following and writers would have to alter stories to make it work because the network insisted. I think it's a sign of good acting when an actor playing a bad guy can make the audience sympathize with the character,but sometimes enough is enough.

R144 Yeah, there's two sides to that.

In a case like the Doug Cummings story, it was better to stick to the story.

But sometimes they need to pay attention to the scenes/actors - instead of forcing a lifeless pairing, go with the actors who are sparking, etc. This is the bad thing about filming so far out....they can't.

In case anyone is interested, there's been some GL discussion over on the Frank Grillo thread. While his time as Hart is mentioned throughout, most of the GL discussion has been in the last few days.

Not sure if we're doing ATWT stuff here or elsewhere but they have the transcript for Martha Byrne's podcast interview in Digest and.....whew, child!

She calls out how ugly the ending of her time at ATWT was, and I think it must be Goutman she's calling out.

R148 Can you provide the link to this transcript?

R149 The podcast is at the link below. There is no link to any transcript, though.

I read the issue (discovered my library had it as a free digital magazine to "borrow" and read.)

It's long or I'd offer to type some of it up.

I'm listening to it now. The most interesting thing she has said so far is that Doug Marland actually considered making Shannon Lily's mother!

r151

really??? hmmmm

Just finished it. Martha is a really smart, centered person. She doesn't through shade at anyone. She even says nice things about Goutman. They didn't talk about the fact that she wasn't called back to end the show...like she should have been. She basically just talks about all the wonderful people she worked with and how wonderful they are.

In talking about how Doug really gave characters specific things, she confused Iva and Shannon though. Shannon's drink was stingers!

Hmmm....then the podcast and the text in DIGEST are different, because Shannon isn't really mention there.

OK found a way to share it.

Wow R155- It sounds like they were real pigfuckers to her. It sounds almost out retaliatory...

Like an offer was made, she had reservations, and they then decided to make the offer even worse...

It's pretty clear she means Goutman.

Power struggle.....puts a new light on some of the final days at ATWT.

Oh yeah, it's pretty clear that when Byrne rejected the contract offer Goutman said something like, "There are hundreds of actresses who could play Lily."

Good for her for focusing on what Goutman did for her, like create Rose.

Shannon was the red herring in the story that had Lucinda dreading meeting some woman. It was revealed that the mystery woman wore a green scarf and Shannon was seen often wearing a green scarf. She often showed up at Lucinda's asking to see her.

We also knew Shannon liked stingers; she was bombed on them the night she met Duncan and married him.

So when Lucinda went out to Rudy's tavern to meet the mystery woman, who, according to the bartender, was on her 'second stinger' it was expected that she was going to see Shannon. Instead, it was Iva -- who ALSO drank stingers (you can see the drink at 4:08 in the clip).

Doug Marland, being a detailed writer, didn't just drop Shannon wanting to see Lucy; they finally connected for a valid reason: Shannon wanted to sell her Walsh stock to hire a private eye to help locate Duncan -- Lucinda, in turn, took the info of Shannon being in a financial jam and relayed it to her new bestie Barbara.

Layers, layers, layers. And if something was added, there was a reason. Such weaving. Brilliant.

If you look carefully, you can see Iva ALSO wore a (very very pale) green scarf.

Once Iva came home from her first meeting with Lucinda, she covered to her mother that she was meeting with Steve to which Meg pointed out: 'gee, that's funny; he just called and didn't know about any meeting.'

Viewers suddenly saw something that had been there all along. Meg (boy was Jennifer Ashe great in that role) blasted Iva before the truth came out she was Lily's mom: "Your world revolves around Lily Walsh. Mine doesn't."

Doug was always planting seeds. Today, one of the remaining soaps, Y&R, tells all its stories off camera -- Traci visits Dina (off-camera) in the Alzheimer's home. Adam tries to figure out if Victor killed someone years ago (off camera). the new kid's grandfather dies -- you guessed it -- off camera.

I highly recommend watching on YouTube Atwt 1986, perhaps Doug's finest year ever after taking GH to the top in 1978 and 1979.

R159 That was RIGHT when I started watching ATWT!

Just to be clear, Doug had made Shannon's drink a stinger well before then and it continued to be her drink. He later revealed her drunken wedding to Duncan was due to stingers. For Iva it was just that once.

did they ever explore Iva's bio family?

Yes, the Carpenters appeared. Her bio-siblings were afraid she was after their inheritance and her bio-cousin had been married to Kirk and was the mother of his two kids (the son played by James VanderBeek).

r163

thank you... now I've been down a ATWT rabbit hole on YT, I would love to see Iva finding out about Rose... anyone know around that happened so I can try to find it on Youtube

I think I found it!

Martha Byrne Emmy Reel when she won the Emmy for Best Actress

[quote] She doesn't through shade at anyone.

Whoops! I know better, r167.

anyone know why they killed Rose off? Did MB get tired of doing the dual role? I can imagine it's a pain to film

They killed Rose off because they thought Rose was doing damage to the longer-term and more integrated Lily character. Rose made Lily look boring and beige.

thanks for answering all my questions... did Josh ever meet Rose?

I don't think TPTB knew what to do with a Lily that wasn't a victim. And while MB is a perfectly normal sized woman, she was apparently a little fat for TV standards and the way some characters talked about her was.....wow.

I actually think MB is beautiful(just like Cricket on Y&R) but it was crazy how people fawned over them

I dont think Josh ever met Rose...but Cal might have...some Christmas???

r174

that shit kills me... they could have at least mentioned that Rose went to where ever Josh was living to meet her bio dad or something. I don't remember if Iva even came back for her funeral.

While it sucked, When Alice or Mickey(I forget) died, they at least said that the people who weren't on screen were just in the other room or picking someone up from the airport.

did Rose ever find out the circumstances of their birth?

again thanks for the answers!

r176 yes

R176 look at r59 in this thread

r178

thanks but I was referring to she is a product of rape I don't remember seeing that in the vid but I watched it a few days ago

I think Rose not being overly interested in who her bio-dad makes sense as Rose grew up with a still living father whom she loved.

Knowing TPTB at that time it probably all happened off camera

ATWT was into killing off main characters and legacy characters in the early 2000s. It got them headlines in the soap press and got people talking about the show for a few days.

But in the long run it did little to help the show. I mean, killing off Bryant gave us several good episodes, but two weeks later, his death was all but forgotten, having had no impact of the longterm story telling.

The same thing with Jennifer's death. Some good scenes surrounding the death, but forgotten a week later.

Unfortunately, Rose's death falls into the same category of having no long term impact on the show. And hers was the death I mourned the most since I liked the character so much.

But I'll point out that OLTL also killed off legacy characters Drew Buchanan (Bo's son) and later Duke Buchanan (Kevin and LeAnn's son). Neither death had any long term impact on the show (especially Duke's). Same thing with Macy Alexander's death on B&B, Emily and Georgie's death on GH.

And of course, we know that death has absolutely no meaning on Days since virtually every character that show has killed off they've later brought back to life.

Only soap deaths in the past 20 years that have had any real, significant, long-term impact on the show was Cassie's death on Y&R and Alan Quatermaine's death on GH, with Cassie's being the more impactful of the two by far.

They're saying on another thread that this one has been paywalled.

new thread, dears

R182, WE know how to make a family death count!