Downton Abbey

More fun in the first few years.

And the dishy Mr. Pamuk!

R1 Oddly enough I don't find Pamuk attractive. Theo James does not look appetizing with long hair and no beard. I much prefer him in his Divergent years.

My favorite was this bitch

Does Daisy get killed off? I'm only halfway through the first season and I'm already hoping Mrs. O'Brien pushes her into the fireplace a lá Sweeney Todd. Grating doesn't even begin to cover it.

Daisy has not had the advantages in life that you enjoy.

#BackOff

Daisy becomes a real bitch in future episodes. Matter of fact, I wouldn't watch past Season 3 because it devolves into soap opera and every character becomes an asshole. Can I get a witness, anyone?

R5 I don't take kindly to commoners.

They neuter your butler quickly enough.

Is this 2010?

O'Brien was the most interesting character.

Barrow, too (interesting character).

So it's clear that Edith is the Jan Brady of this show.

R12, she evolved into my favorite.

I call her daughter #2.

I liked the character of Edith. But I think that the writing for her character fell off in later seasons.

I just started watching it (five hundred years after everyone else on the planet did). I'm up to the fourth episode of season two, and Rob James-Collier is so. fucking. hot. even though his character is a dick. The weird thing is I didn't find him remotely attractive in the two years he appeared on Corrie.

[quote]So it's clear that Edith is the Jan Brady of this show.

It would've been great if, just once, she'd said "Mary, Mary, Mary!"

Not posting as to avoid spoilers for OP but THAT Edith/Mary scene from the final season was posted on the Official Downton Abbey YouTube channel in all its delicious glory.

The problem with Julian Fellowes is that he's good for one or two seasons but then doesn't have any more material to steal, uh, I mean write.

Take for example this scene where Edith goes off on Mary. It's well written except for the last line. "You're a bitch" just takes it into soap opera, especially because she just said it. Fellowes didn't know how to continue/end the scene, so he just tacks on standard soap opera "insult and flounce out of the room with a preferable door slam".

O'Brien was the best character (after Maggie Smith, of course).

Daisy is the most pointless. Education, inheritance, suitors...none of it made any difference. She finished in the same place as she started.

Fellowes is really a crap writer.

OP/R2 I think I leaked precum when I saw Mr Pahmuk. I love me some Theo James, short or long hair.

[quote]O'Brien was the best character (after Maggie Smith, of course).

I agree. Siobhan Finneran knew what to do with the character and she was a thousand more times interesting than the drama going on upstairs. Fellowes was angry that she left the show, but according to Siobhan she went into it telling them she would only do three seasons. Fellowes didn't even write her a decent send-off.

The unholy duo

r22, I really hoped she'd come back for the movie. That could have been interesting instead of "we're cleaning the house for the king" bullshit.

I thought Edith grew a lot. Even though she did a lot of dumb entitled things. She was never going to be the world’s smartest person, but she finally got some self confidence.

Her costumes changed a lot from demure and unfashionable to really dramatic and stylish in later seasons. She actually became more of a fashion plate than Mary. Mary was beautifully dressed but less flamboyant about it. Her style was more elegant and refined old money.

Edith’s style was more like “I grew up in the shadow of this entitled attention-seeking bitch. Might as well glam it up now that I’m finally away from her shadow. What have I got to lose?”

It's that hot as fuck chauffeur, Allen Leech, that was my fave.

[quote]It's that hot as fuck chauffeur, Allen Leech, that was my fave.

Who, once he was established as a recurring character, proceeded directly to the craft services table and became fatter with each take.

LOL, R27. He did get a bit portly. But he slimmed down for that Queen movie and also for the Downtown film.

Adam Leech became a chubby little pumpkin. But after he was off the show, he lost the weight again.

Allen, not Adam. ^^

Amen R26.

He was hot lean and hot with curves. He needs a gig with tasteful nudity. Tastefulness is optional.

Agreed, R31.

He's delicious in this panel. He slim and beautifully dressed. Also, clearly very gay-friendly.

Downton Abbey could have benefited from some cleaning and tightening up. Plot lines introduced, then dropped and never mentioned again. Or even worse plot lines introduced and nothing goes further into background.

Apparently everyone and their mother at Downton Abbey knew Thomas Barrow as gay ( the earl, Lady Mary, Carson...) and everyone treats it as perfectly normal.... Yet we never found out how or why all these people knew, especially Lady Mary, and more to the point why everyone is so accepting which goes totally against what we know of Edwardian England.

IMHO problem with DA stems largely from no one predicting it would be such a success. This lead to doing something British television/PBS historically didn't do; film more episodes. After original three seasons things start to get muddled as if Julian Fellowes was just throwing things onto wall and seeing what stuck.

He ^^IS^^ slim

R22

Siobhan Finneran IIRC had enough of her character on DA and that factored into her not wanting to continue. Think she just felt the woman was evil in ways that Ms. Finneran didn't want to go (arranging the demise of the baby).

Siobhan Finneran was also doing another British television series at time they would have wanted her to film more DA episodes to that may have played a part as well.

R35 She did Happy Valley. Well worth finding.

Yes, I think Siobhan Finneran was filming Benidorm part of the time that Downton was on. Benidorm required her to be in Spain, so I can understand her not wanting the grind of two tv shows, one in a foreign country. But she was great in both roles.

Enough about O'Brien. I would have liked her more if she'd gassed Daisy or that ugly little bastard (SPOILER ALERT). I loved Mary giving shade to Edith, who was just an idiot when she wasn't luckless. SPOILER ALERT: She gets a happy ending. She didn't really grow as much as find a man. Someone who doesn't grow is the Mother. In fact, her dialogue never changes.

R38 Spoilers - Her child never gets pretty.

Oh yes Edith. Who ruined Mary's reputation by publicizing her affair with Mr Pamuk. Who did her part in WWI by driving a tractor and seducing a married farmer. Who had a baby out of wedlock, left her with a family in Europe, then arranged to have her adopted by a tenant farmer (a different one than the one she seduced), then decided she wanted to keep her after all and the farmer's wife went mad with grief and the best farmer on the estate was forced to move away.

Although actually, now that I think of it, after Mary's reputation was ruined, she was nearly blackmailed into marriage with that very rich but very crass newspaper owner--played by the actor who then joined Game of Thrones, so he got a much better gig--but it would've been an interesting storyline. Especially since Matthew didn't hang around for the duration either.

OP, don’t listen to anyone who tells you to skip the seasons past the third.

Even though the latter seasons are not as fresh — as happens with EVERY long running show — it’s still very good television and well worth seeing.

And I have to LMAO at anyone complaining that Julian Fellowe’s writing sometimes “devolves into soap opera.” GMAFB.

E27 You are why I return here after all these years. Thank for making my day.

R42 My main issue with the later years is that (redacted) gets into a love triangle (it may be a square at one point) and all the choices are completely indistinguishable from one another. I watched until the end and couldnt tell any of them apart, in looks or personality.

R27 I blame the wine.

OP, you're talking about Barrow, right? He was drop dead gorgeous too. He could be nasty, but as the series gets on it shows just how horrendous it was to be gay back then, and I found myself feeling sorry for him

Henry Talbot was a bore.

Even if it strays into soap opera territory, it’s still certainly worth watching. I’ve been watching it, late at night, recently. It’s wonderful escapism during Covid-19 lockdown. The locations are gorgeous, and it’s nice to imagine more civilized times.

Yeah ok Allen Leech was "a chubby little pumpkin," but he's hard not to like

Mary, Sybil, Edith

aka

The hot one, the hotter one and the other one.

Brendan Patricks as Evelyn Napier- He was GOOD looking.

I wanted more Brendan Patricks as Evelyn Napier.

Porn for secret racists.

I like the cut of your job, OP. Fancy a spot of How's Yer Father in the boathouse?

Spoiler alert

The younger sister was the one designated to be the modern woman. When she left the show, they reassigned that to Edith. Suddenly, Edith's a journalist and having affairs when in earlier seasons she was begging an old man to marry her. It never quite made sense.

I always thought Edith would have been really happy married to that old guy. She would have had kids, a big mansion and money, and she would have entertained and showed off in front of her family. The old man didn’t care for her much, but he would have sat in his library and ignored the whole family except for an hour or two a day. That wouldn’t have bothered Edith because she would have played with the kids and made excuses for him.

So why was he so horrified to marry her? It’s not like she was hideous, and she was easily manipulated to think whatever he did was normal. I thought he was gay, but even so, guys like that needed an heir.

Edith marrying the old guy would have been a dead end for her story unless she had affairs (with that farmer perhaps, but otherwise she seems a little too conventional to initiate adultery) or he dropped dead and made her an eligible widow. Edith 's role was to be the plain, somewhat dim daughter who whose happiness would be thwarted at every turn until the end. Mary was written to the bitch who experiences enough tragedy that we have some empathy for her, if not sympathy. Edith has the better plot lines on paper, but could be torture to watch, whereas Mary was a Violet in training and therefore had plenty of great lines.

The old man sperm would have produced a child with special needs and that would have been Edith's challenge in life.

Tom Cullen as Viscount Gillingham was so handsome.

Daisy should have been left by the side of a road to fend for herself.

[quote]Mary was a Violet in training

Until Fellowes got bored and made her the Savior of Downton Abbey where she throws off her shackles of being a lady, puts on a pair of Wellies and gets down in the mud and births a cow. That was when the show was officially over.

R59 I wanted him inside me quite deeply.

Allen Leech actually got hotter when he was a little chubbier.

Barrow was goodlooking but conniving. I started feeling sympathy for him though when he was working as a nurse and the poor guy he'd befriended died. He had flashes of kindness before though.

[quote] This led to doing something British television/PBS historically didn't do; film more episodes. After original three seasons things start to get muddled as if Julian Fellowes was just throwing things onto wall and seeing what stuck.

It's clear that all of S4 and S5 and a big chunk of S6 were just treading water. The last 4 episodes were as fun and exciting as the first few seasons, but once they decided to stretch things out, it got boring in the middle.

The show had jumped the shark by the time Cousin Oliver, I mean Cousin Rose shows up. All the downstairs drama had played out. Although I thought Rose dating a black man was a good plot point.

It's also interesting how they don't rewrite the scripts when the cast changes. When O'Brien left, they brought in the new lady's maid and tried to make her as scheming as O'Brien. They realized the actress couldn't play that so they did a 180 and made her a saint and played her off Mosley.

Remember when Benedict Cumberbatch publicly called Downton Abbey a piece of shit? That was fun.

Oh, shit, did he R68? That's funny.

It was fun but I got fucking tired of the ongoing Bates/Anna story line and why was Daisy so fucking whiny? She married some poor kid on his deathbed, thereby getting his pension, and whined and treated any guy who showed interest in her like shit. Always mooning over guys who liked other girls.

Benedict Cumberbatch: 'Downton Abbey is sentimental, cliched and atrocious'

Benedict Cumberbatch is no fan of Downton Abbey - the star of Parade's End has branded it sentimental, clichéd and 'f****** atrocious.'

Mr and Mrs Bates continued misery porn was tiring

[quote] When O'Brien left, they brought in the new lady's maid and tried to make her as scheming as O'Brien. They realized the actress couldn't play that so they did a 180 and made her a saint and played her off Mosley.

I didn't realize they were trying to make the Baxter character like O'Brien. Baxter was like a female Mr. Bates, with the secret prison life & the martyrdom. She always had the same facial expression (like Cora did).

Baxter was a worn-out version of a former Wild Thing. She was lead astray by some Slick Willy and ended up paying the price. She must have had a rough time of it, because she looked very beaten down and acted very listlessly. Especially when you consider her sordid past.

By Edwardian standards Sir Anthony Strallan was an excellent catch for any young lady. He had a title, money, distinguished career, recently widowed, and more to the point no heirs. The latter often sent many an older to aged Englishman of a certain rank in search of a wife.

Clearly however for whatever reasons Mr. Fellowes decided that Strallan after somewhat intensely courted Lady Edith would come to his senses at the last moment and do a runner.

Maybe the old guy felt he wasn't up to doing his duty by a young wife, which of course would need to happen and often at least until at least an heir and possibly spare were produced. Turning some young woman into her much older husband's drudge didn't oftem bother Victorians or Edwardians; marriage was about family or personal avarice. Edith would have had not very long duty as a nurse before becoming a well off young widow. She then would have been free to live rest of her life as pleased.

More to the point in real post WWI England marriage prospects for young women were rather grim. Large numbers of the flower of England were either dead or maimed from the war; all that was largely left were very young (who were too young to have joined up), or very old (other way round). That or any of the physically or mentally maimed soldiers/officers that returned.

Anthony Strallan, IMO, was plain unattractive. And not just because he was older. I realize Edith was supposed to be somewhat desperate, but that was ridiculous.

More importantly, Sir Strallan was played by Robert Bathurst, an already well established and respected British actor (Cold Feet). There's no way Julian was going to pay his salary to be a recurring character. Sir Strallan was designed as a guest star role.

R66

Likely that "black man" was based on Leslie Hutchinson whose affair with Lady a Mountbattan scandalized London society.

Years between the wars coincided with the jazz age which saw scores of African American performers fleeing racial prejudice and violence in USA arrive in Europe. London, Paris, Berlin, etc... all welcomed these persons and treated them far better on average than their homeland. Nature being what it is a good number of white Europeans from all classes discovered and couldn't get enough of BBC.

Remember the house party scene in Brideshead Revisted where Charles Rider and Boy Mulcaster run into Anthony Blanche? You had one older English gentleman trying to lure a AA man back to his home with "I've got booze back at my place..." or words to that affect. Next while Antony Blanche is telling Charles about Sebastian a white young English lady is rolling on the bed with some black guy...

Scions of very best French and Belgian families were falling all over themselves to get at Josephine Baker, giving her jewels that had been in their families for generations.

Of course there had been blacks in UK and France at least going back one hundred years or earlier, they arrived from the new colonial territories. But it was nothing like the 1920's and 1930's. Of course it wasn't to last. As Nazis rolled across Europe they offered AA Americans two choices, internment camps or head back to USA.

Anyway back to Leslie Hutchinson... When scandal broke a Mountbattan and her husband Louis (who was rumored also to have a taste for BBC) closed ranks and turned their backs on LH. In one famous incident Lord and Lady Mountbattan came upon Leslie Hutchinson outside a club and cut him which was felt by the latter deeply.

R68

"Cumberbatch is quoted as saying. “Although Downton traded a lot on the sentiment in the last series…but we won’t talk about that series because it was, in my opinion, f---g atrocious.” Cumberbatch then goes on to insist that Parade’s End is “more sophisticated” and “more unusual,” claiming that “you rarely see a piece about this class of people that’s this accurate, funny and pointed.”

[quote]Nature being what it is a good number of white Europeans from all classes discovered and couldn't get enough of BBC.

They weren't the only ones.

R77

Could that also be why the very handsome Charles Edwards (Michael Gregson), got the push?

There was some hot swinging dick at Downton.

[quote] Could that also be why the very handsome Charles Edwards (Michael Gregson), got the push?

Some people had to be given the push and some corners cut so that the production team could afford Paul Giammatti's single appearance in a thankless role that 100 other less expensive actors could have played.

You have to wonder about Charles Edwards; tall very attractive ginger still not married at fifty years old. What's more very little mention of his personal life in general. Keeping a stiff upper lip is a very well but you'd think......

My money is on he's family and just keeps things quite quiet.

Mary was such an arrogant cunt. Always demeaning Edith. Tried to fuck up Edith’s last chance for marriage by being a cold calculating entitled bitch. I fucking despised her the entire series.

Mary was wonderful. If she'd been a nice sister like Sybil the show would have been so dreadful. It would have been like the last 4 or 5 seasons of MASH. Edith may have been sympathetic to a point, but getting knocked-up, swanning with that farmer, running off to Switzerland, having that ugly daughter, carrying a torch for her boss...yikes. Lots of bad choices there.

Anna and Bates store, now that was truly atrocious. I was hoping he'd be going to the gallows or whatever the Brits were doing in those days.

After season three was sort of rooting for police to get something on Bates so he would swing, thus bringing a close to the never ending saga that was "Bates and Anna".

After season three was sort of rooting for police to get something on Bates so he would swing, thus bringing a close to the never ending saga that was "Bates and Anna".

Molesley and Daisy both got really annoying. I think he was meant to be sad comic relief, but instead was annoying.

I almost cheered out loud when Matthew’s car turned over. I only wish his cunt wife had been with him at the time.

I was a little peeved that they never referred to Anna's son as "Master Bates."

I watched Downton Abbey religiously, but I haven't seen it since its original run and can't remember half the shit that happened.

At least for me it didn't go over as well when it was rerun. The tedious plot lines of the later seasons were just annoying. The best thing you could say about Cora was that she didn't really have any story lines after the first couple seasons.

"Never in my born days..." - Mrs. Bridges

Molesley didn't annoy me. I think he was one of the more realistic characters on the show. I forget his original position, valet to Matthew? butler? but he lost it due to no fault of his own and then he really had to scramble so he wouldn't starve to death. He took a temporary position that was "beneath" him, as a footman and then Carson dismissed him without a second thought when he was no longer needed. He even worked as a street sweeper or something. He was self educated but due to the class system, he was never going to get the opportunity to get a better job. He did end up teaching that one class in the last season.

My favorite scene:

Well since spoilers are out the window...

Gosford Park was so great and Downton Abbey was so dreadful that it's proof that Altman really was totally the author of his own films and used his screen writers as rough guides for the film HE wanted to make.

And, DA was silly inauthentic soap opera from the get go, stealing all the plot points from whatever he's read or seen in other films or TV shows.

Really, the only great thing about DA was the Red Nose Day parody which was brilliant.

Kim Cattrall's line about "who will inherit my 'Sex and the City' millions?" cracks me up every time.

Reggie Swire owed Sir Richard money. So how did he get all that money to leave for Matthew?

Fellowes had so many holes in his storylines.

100 bloomin' replies and not one mention of hers truly?

Little known secret, me and Mrs Hughes were the first scissor sisters, if you get me drift

That "special" looking child of Edith's was dreadful along with her constant "Marigold!". I much preferred Mary's "leave him with the nanny until tea time".

The best British drama EVER about Aristocrats and their servants was Upstairs Downstairs (1971-1975).

Bad show. F***ing atrocious, is right.

The original Upstairs Downstairs was sublime.

I might watch that

Back in the early to mid 90's I watched The House Of Eliot. It was about these two Upper Middle Class sisters who start a fashion house in London in the 1920's. I really enjoyed that show. It was created by the same two women who created the original Upstairs Downstairs- Jean Marsh and Eileen Atkins.

[quote]The best British drama EVER about Aristocrats and their servants was Upstairs Downstairs (1971-1975).

Which Julian Fellowes shamelessly stole several Downton Abbey plotlines from.

I checked out Upstairs Downstairs on Youtube, and god it's so boring. It looks so cheap, too, shot on videotape. That show would never make it today.

Upstairs Downstairs looks cheap, because it was cheaply produced. The UK mini-series in the 1970s weren't movies, but little plays caught on videotape. The writing and acting, first rate. It isn't a surprise that Fellows stole right from the best.

I actually enjoyed the reboot of "Upstairs, Downstairs." I wish it had lasted longer. And Ed Stoppard (son of Tom) was HOT.

[quote]The UK mini-series in the 1970s weren't movies, but little plays caught on videotape. The writing and acting, first rate. It isn't a surprise that Fellows stole right from the best.

i agree, downton has everything that UD didn't, set, design, a patina of beauty to every shot. Upstairs. . looked like an awkward set

Yes R112- Downton Abbey had all those things except- Good writing, good acting and good directing.

It's a CHANGING England.

*Sigh*

The worst part of the show was the Bates character and story line. Completely boring, never went anywhere, and the actor was a smug, chubby creepy-vibe guy. He should have been playing a child molester. And his wife was equally dull.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Carson was a douche

Anna looked like Bates's daughter. They couldn't have paired him up with someone more age-appropriate? It looked so gross and pervy.

^ Exactly. I hated that.

In those days a lot of women married much older men. The reason for that is women had a baby a year, so they had to marry somebody that could support the wife and kids immediately. During the Victorian era there was a fad of young beautiful girls marrying these old decrepit fossils for their money, so, people were used to the idea.

But Bates wasn't a well-off man.

R109

Roughly 1970's through 1980's with a bit of early 1990's was the heyday of British television drama and sitcoms, much of which happily ended up in USA via PBS broadcasts.

I Claudius, Upstairs-Downstairs, The Duchess of Duke Street, Pennies From Heaven, Rumpole of the Bailey, The Six Wives of Henry VIII, Poldark, The Pallisers, Elizabeth R, Edward and Mrs. Simpson...

No these productions didn't have lavish budgets and so forth but they made up for what you consider lacking by rock-solid scripts, brilliant casting of actors at top of their game.

Life of Elizabeth I has been done to death on television, but no one has yet to top Glenda Jackson's "Elizabeth R".

Downton Abby is a poor reproduction of Upstairs-Downstairs, former puts the latter in the shade by miles.

1980's British television gave us of course Brideshead Revisited, but so much more including The Singing Detective.

r122 from what I've seen of Upstairs Downstairs it was dreary and stilted. It was of its time.

Only reason one stuck with reboot of US/DS was to gaze at Ed Stoppard.

Brendan Coyle was (or still is) stuck in Chicago thanks to covid-19 lock down.

Meanwhile Dan Stevens has been keeping busy....

More on DS

Dan Stevens also stars in remake of Noel Coward's Blithe Spirit along with DL fave Judi Dench

R122, YES! Perfectly articulated, thank you.

R129 I'll pass on that. I love the original too much.

I wish it were Rob James Collier, and not Dan Stevens, who had the career. RJC is one of the sexist Brits around. Dan is not.

Maybe FRAUS like him. But I never thought Dan Stevens had ANY sex appeal.

r125, see r111

[quote]Maybe FRAUS like him. But I never thought Dan Stevens had ANY sex appeal.

Yes, he was a very "vanilla" non-personality Brit, wasn't he? You sort of expected the character to be "dashing" and have a bit of personality and Stevens had none of that. He didn't have the magnetism of a James Norton or an interesting face like Matt Smith. It is a difficult role because Fellowes really didn't write any character into the role, so it needed an actor with a bit more going on.

And I agree with the person above who said that all of Mary's suitors in later seasons looked exactly alike. I kept getting them mixed up.

R135- The one she had sex with at the hotel and the guy who helped her with the pigs one day. Both of those suitors were INTERCHANGEABLE and neither had ANY sex appeal.

[quote]and the guy who helped her with the pigs one day.

As if Lady Mary was going to get down among the pigs. Another stupid Fellowes plotline.

I also preferred Rob James Collier over Dan Stevens. He was gorgeous.

Rob James Collier is/was pretty but at best, he's a soap opera actor....there's a reason why he hasn't had much success outside DA.

Dan Stevens is far more talented. He was smart to jump that ship before he got too associated with that one role/project.

Same with Siobhan Finneran. She was on the show long enough to make an impact, with a strong (but ludicrous) character and wisely chose to not continue with it so she could play other roles...like a starring role in the most popular BritCom of its time.

She also must not have enjoyed her time on the show, or at least the character because when asked what she thought the show should do with her nasty character she replied, "fling her off a roof".

I couldn’t stand Mr. Bates. He was too controlling. I was hoping he really did kill Green that way he can go off to prison and be forgotten.

IMO, Dan Stevens is not a great actor, at least based on what I saw in Downton Abbey. Maybe that an American point of view, but that's my opinion.

The O'Brien role, I did not think it was a "ludicrous" role at all. I think there were other reasons for Finneran leaving DA (not just b/c she originally decided to stay for 3 seasons & wanted to stick with that). I'm guessing Fellowes was some type of tyrant (no other writers, apparently).

Siobhan Finneran as mother herself perhaps felt that O'Brien's plotting and eventual killing of an unborn child was just too much, and or at least took her to a place she didn't want to go. Fact that O'Brien is never caught or even called out for her evil doings just made matters worse I shouldn't wonder.

Never understood why the countess kept that harpy of a lady's maid on in first place. Yes, know O'Brien like Mrs. Danvers sort of came with the place when Cora arrived, but she still was mistress of Downton Abbey and could (and should) have sent the old witch packing.

R141 Well, ALL the roles on that show are ludicrous; it's a poorly written show and that includes all the cardboard soap opera characters.

I do wonder about Finnernan leaving...her contract was up but so was everyone else's and they all re-upped. She must have really disliked some aspects of working on DA. I mean, she gave up an opportunity to be on the top Drama AND the top Comedy on British TV circa 2010. Maybe it was just the scheduling but she doesn't seem to have nice things to say about the show and it was odd they never really resolved that character, who did make a good villain. It would have made sense both story wise (and as a ratings grabber) to do something big with O'Brien on her exit. Instead, it was a lame "Oh...she's gone."

R142 Well Cora did wake up and send that evil nanny packing. Also, Barrow knew what O'Brien had done - leave the soap on the floor and threatened to reveal her. I don't know how he knew - it was never explained but I suspect she may have told him in a moment of regret or weakness I suppose but we never really knew how Barrow found out.

R144

Siobhan Finneran went on to Happy Valley (television series) which is quite highly rated I can assure you. The lady also won a BAFTA TV nomination (best supporting actress) as well.

As for why SB left DA she has said:

"“I signed up to do three series and that was all I wanted to do,” the 47-year-old actress told the British publication. “I talked it through with my family and it was the right decision for all of us. I had great fun doing it but I just didn’t want to do it any more. I decided this before we even did the last series. When I stop loving something, I stop doing it.”

IMHO on the whole British actors/actresses are far more attuned to their careers than many Americans. The former are largely classically trained and move from stage, screen and television taking projects that interest them wanting to do good work with people. A great share of American actors (especially on television) cannot act their way out of paper bag. Holy grail is to land on a television series that is picked up for syndication. They will remain in that role (and drawing paychecks) until series is cancelled, or they die.

The great Patricia Routledge quit Keeping Up Appearances when it was at top of ratings and could have easily gone on several more seasons. Ms.Routledge gave her reasons as not wanting to be typecast forever as Hyacinth Bucket, but more importantly she wanted to move on and do other things as an actor. Other main reason was that PR felt it was far better to leave on a high note than dragging things out and people saying "oh is that still on....".

Those who chose to remain with DA for several more seasons and or until the end obviously had their reasons. Money, steady work, nothing else coming down the pike.....

For an old bird like Maggie Smith DA must have been a piece of piss. She showed up, did a bit of work (largely often sitting down), and got a pretty good wages (you don't think Dame Smith came cheaply do you?), leaving plenty of time to do something or nothing else.

Rob James Collier is a model turned actor. He doesn't have background in formal acting training or background like say Michelle Dockery, Laura Carmichael, Dan Stevens, Allen Leech and others on DA.

RJC keeps going on about how playing the "gay footman" on DA is reason why he isn't getting many great offers, when reality is quite the opposite. The guy just doesn't seem to possess the acting chops to move above what he has already done.

R146 There's always an OnlyFans site.

R146 he was a model in a catalogue for a fart machine! I'd still love to explore his hairy cock though.. I'd also love to fellate Dan Stevens. Leach does nothing for me.

That villain that Mary almost married who had a newspaper empire. I would NOT have kicked him out of the sack.

That guy was sexy R149 but he would have ended up beating her (maybe not a bad thing though).

Do you think Fatty Arbuckle Carson and Elsie Hughes ever consummated things?

R151 helll no!

Why exactly did Scary Mary decide she loved Matthew? They didn't seem to have much passion or build-up to them growing closer, apart from gorgeous Matthew surviving the war.

Can anyone shed light on the Canadian rail investments that went bad, costing Wobert half his fortune? Did that happen?

R153- You found Matthew GORGEOUS. He had NO curb appeal to me.

R153- You found Matthew GORGEOUS. He had NO curb appeal to me.

R155 yes! He's yummy in a preppy way. I'd suck him all day and even let Isis watch!

Not R153 but I found him attractive but I've seen him in other projects where I though he was far more attractive. I'm another one who doesn't find the chauffeur all that but RJC is gorgeous.

lord Grantham had more sex appeal in his stiff way

re: O Brien. She was an interesting character, definitely the leader with Barrow the follower in their nasty plots. She was angry with Lady Cora for some reason (thought she was being replaced?) that's why she left the soap on the floor but she wasn't trying to force Cora to have a miscarriage. Yes, it should've been foreseeable but...writing... She just wanted Cora to be injured so that she would be reliant on and grateful to O Brien.

There was one occasion, Carson was indisposed (?) (heart attack, like Mr Hudson had in UD?) before a big important dinner and the staff all had to scramble and O Brien volunteered to help serve "for the good of the family". She was a ladies maid, higher ranking than a serving maid and very proud of that, but she immediately pitched right in, just got on with it and didnt make a big deal about it either. T hat's why her character was so great.

I think Cora was advertising for a Lady's maid (for Violet),. O'brien found out somehow and thought she was for the chop. Cannot remember if she was remorseful right after the fall or only when she found out Cora wasn't intending to can her boney arse?

Also, does anyone remember if the baby was confirmed as a boy?

yes, I believe it was

R160 O'Brien was remorseful. When Cora is struck by the Spanish Flu O'Brien stayed by her beside and cared for her like she was her own flesh and blood. I think it was fairly clear O'Brien did really regret what she had done.

What I don't know is how Barrow found out about the soap left on the floor - only O'Brien could have told him but we really don't know - one of the plot holes you are bound to get with a 60 hour TV series, no matter how great it is.

R162 I know she was very remorseful eventually but I mean,did she feel it right after, when she realises she cost Cora her baby, or only after she realises she had no reason to be vengeful to her mistress? (ie she wasn't getting fired).

Good costumes. Terrible writing, acting.

R163 You are correct if I recall - she didn't feel remorseful straight away. I'm pretty sure the first time was when Cora was struck down by the flu that her guilt and remorse emerged. Before that it didn't seem to bother her - she may have even been pleased but I'd have to watch the series again - which I was going to do in lockdown but haven't gotten around to it.

Please let me know R165 I think she started to show remorse (the actress was brilliant) when she learned the ad was for Violet, not Cora, but I cannot swear to it.

R166 I really can't remember. When I get around to watching it again, because I loved it and want to I'll post on the thread.

Oops I cheated and found on YouTube. She actually changes her mind before Cora even slips and tries to stop it. She is clearly guilt-ridden right away.

How did she know Cora was going to get out that side of the bath though?!

[quote] Why exactly did Scary Mary decide she loved Matthew? They didn't seem to have much passion or build-up to them growing closer, apart from gorgeous Matthew surviving the war.

That was something that had to happen to move the plot along. Matthew was the legal heir to the Downton Abbey real estate. Robert / Cora had no sons, only daughters. By law, the daughters could not inherit due to being women. Cousin Matthew was the next male in line to inherit. So, Mary marrying Matthew tied up the plot line. I don't think they really had great chemistry, but not bad, I guess.

I understand that R169 but was there any build up with Mary's feelings growing? Or just one episode she decides she loves him?

R170, yes, there was a build-up. First, Matthew liked Mary, but Mary didn't like Matthew. Then Mary liked Matthew (in large part because he was the heir). But then Cora had a menopause-type pregnancy (ultimately miscarried due to O'Brien placing soap outside Cora's bathtub). In those days, there was no ultrasound to determine baby's sex. If the baby had been a boy, born alive, there would have been no need for Mary to marry Matthew.

During the time Cora was pregnant, Mary balked at marrying Matthew. Matthew said fuck this then went to war and got engaged to a woman named Lavinia Swire. Lavinia died of Spanish Flu. But even before Lavinia died, Mary & Matthew had realized they were still attracted to each other.

The Doctor confirmed the baby was a boy. The entire history of Downton could have changed based on half a bar of soap.

R159

O'Brien (like Mrs. Danvers) came with the house IIRC, and Cora wasn't exactly thrilled with her lady's maid. Prior to O'Brien hatching her plot the countess spoke to her quite severely warning that she was "sitting very close to the window's edge..." Translation.... you're about to get the push if you don't pull up your socks.

O'Brien for her part didn't seem to take kindly to her new American mistress, somehow feeling it was beneath her dignity to serve such a woman. O'Brien would go on about how the countess didn't behave like a true peeress, things like coming down into servant's hall (IIRC).

As a woman O'Brien knew very well what any sort of slip/fall could do to a female with child. When it was announced out of the blue the countess was expecting she saw a chance to get some of her own back. Yes, after plotting and scheming to cause her ladyship harm that might likely bring her pregnancy to an end, O'Brien did have second thoughts and started back towards bathroom, but it was too late.

Part of the reason Mary and Matthew had little chemistry is due to Michelle Dockery being such an awful actress and overall cough drop.

To poster above; the Canada railway scandal that cost Earl Grantham his (and his wife's) fortune was the Grand Trunk Railway bankruptcy.

This real life event brought financial harm if not ruin to a large number of British investors including peers of the realm who sank their money into the scheme.

Thanks R175 :)

R162, Barrow never knew what O'Brien did. It was Bates that knew. O’Brien eventually turned on Barrow and tried to get him sacked after he kissed Jimmy. She’s the one that pushed Jimmy to make a big deal out of it and insist they sack Barrow without a reference, which would make him unemployable. Nobody cared all that much really, including Robert. O’Brien told Jimmy if he didn’t make a fuss they’d think he was gay, so he went along.

Bates thought it was unfair and told Barrow to say, “her ladyship’s soap” to O’Brien. I don’t think Barrow ever knew what that meant but it worked. O'Brien got scared and backed off. Bates immediately regretted it because they didn’t sack Barrow after all.

I don’t remember how Bates knew about the soap, but he or Anna might have been around when Cora was so sick with Spanish flu and overheard O’Brien trying to make a deathbed confession to Cora. Luckily for O’Brien, Cora was delirious and didn’t hear. Or maybe they heard something around the time it happened.

Anyone who has read Jane Austen ,(or seen any of her novels turned into films, plays or whatever) ,knows it was not uncommon in fiction (nor real life) for a daughter of a peer without sons to marry a cousin or whoever the heir happened to be.

When entail was in full force it meant the heir copped the lot, and subsequently could turf out all the daughters and even widow of a deceased peer once he inherited. It was his home now and unless provisions were made to give the widowed peeress and her daughters something, that was that.

To avoid that horrible fate daughters gamed to marry this random second, third or whatever cousin who was how many times removed. By marrying the new heir at least one daughter could remain in her birth home, and also hopefully influence the heir to provide something for her mother and sisters.

This is behind all the talk of a peeress or her daughters being "settled". That simply referred to a peer's wife and or daughters being given something legally via settlement. This was outside of entail and was theirs regardless of who inherited the estate. Dowager Countess of Grantham cannot be removed from her dower house, nor could her son stop any allowance. That was all agreed upon at time of "granny's" marriage to the earl's father plus any subsequent arrangements.

Whole thing with Lady Mary is a common enough plot line for these sort of period dramas.

Here you had the eldest daughter; an intelligent, and capable young woman who by virtue of her sex was automatically excluded from inheriting. Lady Mary like many real life women in her situation hated their lot and detested not only what they would have to do (marry and do so well), but often automatically out of hand the heir that would get "her" house and estate.

Matthew Crawley was sensitive to his cousin's plight; knowing how things normally went in such situations he gave LM a wide berth as not to appear too keen or even interested. That she was a cold high riding bitch made that quite easy.

I could be wrong, but I think it was Barrow who knew about the soap (O'Brien). O'Brien needed to unburden herself on somebody and it was Barrow who she told.

At some point, Barrow told Bates about the soap.

O'Brien would never have told Bates a secret like that and there were no witnesses except O'Brien and Cora.

The plot hole was that nobody was angry with O'Brien for leaving soap on the floor. In real life, you would have blamed your servant for not keeping the floor clear.

O'Brien over heard a conversation between the countess and dowager about finding a new lady's maid for the latter. She believes (incorrectly) that Cora is advertising to find a replacement for herself, and thus hatches out that soap plot.

Remember this happened not long after the countess told O'Brien off with that "window's edge" comment.

My favorite line delivered to Edith from her runaway groom, “Have you done something rather jolly to your hair?” Now that’s a line you could use repeatedly with your bunch of basic, washed up friends.

R149 - That's Iain Glen. He was in a pretty good British TV series called "Delicious" with Dawn French. He was shirtless a few times and I think there was an ass shot or two.

R59 R62 No love for Mary's other suitor played by Julian Ovenden? Thought he was one of the best looking guys on the show

R183

Finally someone in this thread speaking sense about good looking British men!

Julian Ovenden is someone one could do business with, again and again.

Thing with Englishmen is finding one that ages well. Oh they all start out well enough, but by their thirties or so seem to often hit the wall; and it just goes downhill.

For those who missed Julian Ovenden's NYC engagement at Roundabout Theater.

R183 they all looked the same. In clock terms, Mary romanced 9, 11, and 12. They look like cousins or brothers. Casting really screwed the pooch. Even a LIGHT brunette would've stood out slightly.

I thought Mary had the most chemistry with Julian Ovenden's character (the pig pen guy) who was all about modernizing farms or something and oh yes, happened to be the son of an earl. So suitable! But he was offered a better acting gig somewhere else and never came back.

Agree, R188, Mary had the most chemistry with the Charles Blake character, even though he was kind of short. He had more going on behind the eyes than the others. She also had chemistry with the Richard Carlisle actor. You could believe them as a miserable couple together for the wrong reasons.

R179 O'Brien tells Cora there is soap under the floor but lies by saying its under the bath.

Richard Carlisle, he tried to blackmail Mary into marrying him and yes, a definite frisson running between them. It would have been a tricky love/hate storyline to write, well beyond Fellowes' capacity although hate/hate would've been easy enough. Still, too dark for this series.

You can get through all of it with this.

And this as well.

R170 you make the mistake of assuming Mary had feelings. She demonstrated she did not over the course of the show

No one mentioned that HOT Peasant that Edith kept Goldilocks with for a while. He had a HAIRY chest too. The gay DUKE had a hairy chest too. He was hot as well. See I don't discriminate. I can be attracted to UPPER class and LOWER class.

You CERTAINLY don't discriminate against CAPITAL letters, R195.

I had figured Mary would end up with Charles Blake. She had a lot of chemistry with him and he could hold his own with her. That guy she ended up with, whatever his name was, was boring. Almost as if the writers had to hurry up and settle on someone. It's been so long since I've watched it, I can't even remember what happened to Blake.

Blake just disappeared from the show, there was no explanation. I thought the Henry Talbot suitor had possibilities, they had a good first meeting but the racing driver storyline managed to be boring. They tried to tie the danger to Matthew's death but it wasnt compelling. The whole "quit racing and open a garage" resolution was bizarre unless it was supposed to be proud Mary's comeuppance and a contrast to woebegone Edith's marrying a duke.

Beryl Patmore should have had more screentime..

R198

Julian Ovenden did his two seasons on DA then left having plenty more on his plate. Just a quick glance at his IMDb page for years after DA shows plenty of film/television work. This in addition to his stage and voice work.

It really does seem as if Julian Ovenden is concentrating more on his musical/vocal career than being tied to the endless saga that was DA.

Again British actors often are just a different lot than Americans. Your average actor on this side of Atlantic would give his left nut to land a recurring role on hit drama series.

It is possible I suppose given way British television dramas are shot to maybe do something else at same time. But that would have limits. No one is going to be doing Showboat on Broadway (as Julian Ovenden did) while flying back and froth from NYC to London. Well not since the Concorde has gone away, and maybe not even then....

Why were there no ass shots on this show? Even Victoria managed to have a couple of the actors show their asses

Matthew, Pamuk, Jimmy Kent and Barrow. Yes please show assess.

The feature film movie was awful.

I watched the movie. Everything about it was stupid. Funniest line “I never knew there were men like me” coming from Barrow. The very first episode of the tv series made it clear Barrow had found a man like him. Plus he tried to put the moves on Poor Mister Pamouk & Jimmy the WhateveHeWas downstairs guy. He knew there were men like him.

Downtown Abbey

All the men in the Downton cast put on the pounds between the tv series & the film.

IRL Barrow is in his 40s & unmarried

Rob James Collier is married and has a kid, r208.

I'm watching Season 1 and I'd forgotten what a bitch Edith was, initially----really nasty to Mary. I suspect that maybe why I never liked her as "poor Edith".

Did Dame Maggie deserve all 3 Emmys she won for playing the fearless Dowager?

R211

They were paying Dame Maggie Smith enough, she better have brought in something to enhance prestige of Downton Abbey.

Other than that guess out of all main cast the dowager was sort of glue that holds things together. Not just her witty remarks and caustic comments, but how the old gal manages to navigate between her son's world and that of the grand daughters.

Mr. Carson always acted like he couldn't stand Cora.

It's just started from the very beginning here in the UK, ITV3. Wobert has just found out the heir was on board Titanic!

Eugh that twat Bates has just hobbled in.

R214

A plot line lifted from original Upstairs/Downstairs where Lady Marjorie perished on Titanic.

Tough guess can cut DA people some slack; plenty of "A-List" persons of Edwardian Britain were on on that ship so pain was likely spread evenly around.

When you catch up to 1919, you can compare how they dealt with the Spanish flu vs. what we're doing.

Downton Abbey was DESPERATE to please a 21st century audience- like having the chauffeur marry one of Lord Grantham's daughters.

Could you imagine if Elizabeth Bellamy had married Watkins the chauffeur on Upstairs Downstairs. Lady Marjorie would have had a fit!

R215 That twat Bates, or the Bates Twat (aka Anna)?

Elizabeth wouldn’t have noticed a chauffeur - especially an Irish one.

Irishmen were considered dirty, dangerous & deranged by upper class English people. Most of them wouldn't hire Irish males. Irish females were ok, but the upper class preferred English & Scottish female servants over Irish.

Downton Abbey took a LOT of liberties to pander to a modern audience. There were many things on that show that upper-class English of that era never would've done.

Like Carson accepting Thomas’s gayness by saying something like “I don’t approve, but some people are just born like that.”

Carson swept Ethel out of the house without a second thought when she slept with a military man. She was deprived & disgusting. But gay guy hitting on the footman? Oh well. That’s just the way he is.

Carson, of all people, would've been in the mindset of the times when it came to Thomas's gayness. It was a sick perversion, and he would've wanted him out of the house.

Also - why would a duke write love letters to a valet? Remember the original story? Thomas was trying to blackmail a duke with love letters the duke had written to Thomas.

It was ridiculous.

Servants in that era were just that, servants. They were not seen as people by the English upper classes. Things were WAY too chummy on that show. There would have been no close relationships between staff and employers.

I know. Like an earl & countess would sit at the table with their aristocratic daughters & talk about the housemaid taking typing lessons to better herself.

And everyone being so interested in & chummy with Bates & Anna. Anna the maid confiding her pregnancy problems to the woman she dresses & whose hair she brushes. And The whole aristo family being so worried about their chronic miscreant valet who keeps drawing police to their home. The valet who suspiciously lost his limp.

Frederick from Upstairs Downstairs was more realistic as a valet to Captain James. “Yes sir, no sir.” But Upstairs Downstairs was created by Eileen Atkins whose mother had been a housemaid.

Sybil had obviously never heard about the Irish curse.

Sybil would have been put in an asylum in Switzerland in real life - getting involved with typing housemaids, taking them to job interviews and getting bedraggled in the rain, chatting the Irish chauffeur up, attending radical political meetings. It’s like Fellowes tried to roll up too many Upstairs Downstairs characters into one person. Lady Elizabeth stared to hang out with the Bloomsbury group & suffragettes. Georgina got involved with the housemaid’s family because Georgina was young & unused to living in a wealthy household with servants her own age. So Georgina tried to help the housemaid’s family at Christmas & she and the housemaid missed the last bus and had to walk home from the East End.

But Richard Bellamy told Georgina in no uncertain terms that she must not get involved with staff.

Then there was Captain James fucking the crazy maid & making her pregnant.

I think Fellowes wrapped all those characters & incidents into Sybil and it was just ludicrous.

It wasn't Carson who gave that maid Ethel the push, rather the housekeeper Mrs. Hughes after catching her and Major Charles Bryant doing something they shouldn't. This was entirely normal and within character for Edwardian era households. Ethel Parks was dismissed at once without a reference which all but doomed her chances of being employed by any other household.

For Victorian and Edwardian households housekeeper was in charge of all female servants, while butler took care of males. The only female servants not under housekeeper's direct supervision were ladies maids, nannies, nursemaids, and sometimes kitchen maids. However as the servant problem became more acute many households tried to make one maid do two jobs, then there was a battle over jurisdiction.

Homes that couldn't find (or afford) a nursery maid often had kitchen maid do both jobs. Something cook often didn't like and would assert her authority over the girl.

R226

Yes, it would have been highly likely by just before WWI and certainly afterwards for aristocratic households just like everyone else who was wealthy to discuss servants "bettering themselves".

The industrial revolution that begun during Queen Victoria's time had unleashed huge economic forces. Gradually the poorer/lower classes (from which virtually all servants were drawn) began to seek out and or prefer jobs in shops, factories, offices, etc... A maid learning how to type meant she was going to soon likely leave service, and finding another was becoming increasingly difficult.

The countess and her daughters in particular couldn't function in life as they knew it without maids.

Will give you that usually the housekeeper and butler dealt with staffing issues, but at some point even one or both would have to inform her ladyship about difficulties in finding good people.

R224

If you think royal males, peers, lords of manors, etc.. only slept (ok, fucked) attractive valets, groomsmen, stable boys and other staff on estate in European gay porn, you are very much mistaken.

It also wouldn't that uncommon for a gay duke to be taken with a member of his own household staff or someone else's . These were the men who came into his orbit; it wasn't as if he could go to a gay bar or something. The duke was obviously bent in that direction, but where to find an outlet for that affection and passion. Making a move on wrong man could invite scandal and have other serious repercussions. A servant OTOH could be managed ....

I just saw the love letters plot point for the first time yesterday and it was... odd. What did the dirty Duke say to Thomas? And there were so many of them!

Plus Thomas just kept them casually in his room, with all the backstabbing staff around! Please!

Lady Mary thinking of Carson as a second father. Didn't believe that one. They only trotted it out once or twice a season though.

[quote] It wasn't Carson who gave that maid Ethel the push, rather the housekeeper Mrs. Hughes after catching her and Major Charles Bryant doing something they shouldn't.

Mrs Hughes & Mrs Patmore softened towards Ethel — but Carson did not. “Don’t let Mr Carson find out.”

[quote] If you think royal males, peers, lords of manors, etc.. only slept (ok, fucked) attractive valets, groomsmen, stable boys and other staff on estate in European gay porn, you are very much mistaken.

Nobody made any such claim, R230.

The statement was that it was a bizarre plot line that a duke WOULD WRITE A PILE OF LOVE LETTERS to a valet.

If I was that horny footman Thomas I still would have fucked that big-dicked duplicitous Duke

The actor who played footman William (the one who married Daisy and then died) was on the season finale of "Call the Midwife." He's not aging well (and has porked up, too.) He played a guy who knocked up two different women, neither of whom was his wife.

R234

You ranting aside you're forgetting on key fact; those in love (and or at least lust) often do not behave rationally.

We know from both fact and fiction that Victorian and Edwardian men wrote things they shouldn't to low born women. Dickens, Doyle and others used such letters as a plot device. In real life such matters occupied lawyers and law enforcement. In both situations no small sums were spent on detectives or anyone else employed to retrieve such documents.

That the duke's mother was always warning him not to put things into writing was common enough advice from high born mothers to their sons. She like rest of world assumed this primarily meant to females, but it went both ways.

Gay sex and certainly love was where Victorian and Edwardian men could find it; and certainly the oily scheming git that was Thomas likely encouraged the duke to put his feelings into writing. This using same power as woman would; get a man thinking with his wrong head.

That the duke smartened up in time to have a lucky escape again is a frequent ending to many a similar plot device.

In Victorian and Edwardian England footmen were supposed to be hired based upon their looks among other factors. Many a great lady (and we can assume men) had affairs with their footmen. We know this from contemporary diaries that mention scandals involving high born ladies being caught with their footmen doing things that they shouldn't.

[quote] Many a great lady (and we can assume men) had affairs with their footmen.

So where are the letters?

Oh, I get it. They were all burned up by the duplicitous aristos.

Can you give us an example of a female aristo fucking a footman?

It was expected that men would fuck maids.....but never that women would fuck footmen. Not IRL. It’s another anachronism that modern tv writers throw into their historical stews. “Oh yes, high born women fucked the footman and the stable boy just like men fucked servants.”

No. They really didn’t.

The men who fucked housemaids raped them or paid them.

I saw that r236, he looked as pregnant as his fiancee

In real life 1924, Thomas would've been hanged for his homosexuality.

Writing longhand letters was the texting / email of the Downton Abbey times. IMO, it would be plausible for the duke to write letters to Barrow. Think about "Carlos Danger" and how little impulse control high-profile people seem to have in current times. Plus, Barrow was fucking hot and handsome and probably good in bed.

Daisy was great. You all suck

Daisy was annoying, even in her Marxist period.

R251, The death penalty for buggery in the UK was abolished in 1861, but the last time it was carried out was in 1835. Oscar Wilde got two years at hard labor in 1895.

The real danger was what the other prisoners or guards would do to you. Today, the equivalent would be prisoners convicted of child molesting and how they get beaten up by the other prisoners.

Daisy was an inept fool who treated William like crap. He did even get to go splunking in her Daisy cave after they wed. Selfish wench!

He didn't even!

R246 Well to be fair he wasn't in a position to. He had be gravely injured in the war however she could have given me a taste of her honeypot before he left for war.

James Pratt and John Smith were judicially murdered by the Crown under the Buggery Act in 1835. Evidence against the two was largely a packet of wicked lies from landlords George and Jane Berkshire who claimed to have seen things they couldn't possibly through keyhole.

More:

I hope the Landlord and his wife suffered

R236 I saw that in a Midwife recap and I literally GASPED!

He has porked out, for sure. This was him a few years back

of course Allen Leech looked good with a little extra weight on him

Leech was on the HBO drama ROME. His character was from an Upper class ruling family of Rome.

R253, IMO, Allen Leech looked better lean. His character got de-balled in later seasons and it didn't help that he was putting on weight as well. I could picture him at the craft service table, plate piled high.

Well IMO, Leech looked good either way.

I am 1000 percent bottom but there were a few scenes in Downton when they showed his bigger, beefier ass and I wanted to lick it, and then pound it. Mmm, mmm good.

I get it, R256, leaner Leech is just my personal preference.

Lady Mary is my favorite!

Lady Mary is my favorite!

Lady Mary is my favorite!

But is Lady Mary your favorite?

The most joyous 10 seconds for me in the entire run of the show.

READ HER FOR FILTH, EDITH!

[quote]James Pratt and John Smith were judicially murdered by the Crown under the Buggery Act in 1835. Evidence against the two was largely a packet of wicked lies from landlords George and Jane Berkshire who claimed to have seen things they couldn't possibly through keyhole.

I think James still posts here on DL occasionally.

Who here would polish Carson's knob?

I would ride Allen Leech's big white pasty mick ass like a rodeo clown. That man has some serious game back there.

R184 That was so cute (and hot!) He just has the perfect build and body... the rest of the DL can have the waddling muscle queens.

R185 Julian Ovenden is 44 so I think he's long passed the test lol.

[quote] Think about "Carlos Danger" and how little impulse control high-profile people seem to have in current times.

Emphasis on CURRENT times.

[quote] Leech was on the HBO drama ROME. His character was from an Upper class ruling family of Rome.

Wrong again. Leech played Marcus Agrippa whose “family originated in the Italian countryside, and was of humble and plebeian origins. They had not been prominent in Roman public life.” (Wikipedia)

In fact, much is made of Agrippa’s humble status in the HBO series Rome. A (completely fictional) love affair occurs between Augustus’ sister & Agrippa. They must keep the affair secret because of Agrippa’s lowly background.

I don't see how that "showdown" between Mary and Edith was supposed to have been so earth-shattering. Edith called Mary a "bitch." So what. That's a compliment.

In real life, Carsn is married to the Shirley Valentine actress.

[quote]In real life, Carsn is married to the Shirley Valentine actress.

In real life, Carson is married to Imelda Staunton.

Imelda was in the Downton movie playing Violet’s cousin. She’s tiny.

[quote] In real life, Carsn is married to the Shirley Valentine actress

Boy, we’ve got a real winner posting in this thread who imagines a duke would write a pile of love letters to a footman, Marcus Agrippa was from a noble Roman family & Pauline Collins is Imelda Staunton

R269 It was shocking b/c the language was never heard on that show, and because Edith was always the afterthought dishrag of the show, for her to call Mary on her shit was what most of us in the audience wished for all along.

Mary was such a cold cunt and yet she was always supposed to be the Big Catch of the show.

R274 I loathed Mary. She was the iciest, entitled, arrogant cunt who ever cunted in that show.

Mary loved Carson, who understood her!

Cuz Carson was the male Mary. Mary!!

Oops. I'm the one who got Pauline and imelda mixed up. So who is Pauline married to? I know it's another actor

The Pallisers was great.

[quote]Mary was such a cold cunt and yet she was always supposed to be the Big Catch of the show.

She was well-known as one of the few women in Yorkshire who would do anal.

Mary and Mrs. Patmore were the only ones, r280.

Did Thomas teach them how?

Mary’s wig in the Downton Abbey movie is Korean rat hair

No, the Turkish Ambassador taught everybody anal, R282.

[quote] I'm the one who got Pauline and imelda mixed up. So who is Pauline married to? I know it's another actor

google

is

your

friend

No thanks R285. Not that interested.

[quote]No thanks [R285]. Not that interested

LOL - it took more effort to type this than actually google it.

Maybe but I'm still not going to bother.

O’Brien is essentially Mrs Tweedy from Chicken Run. Voice, appearance, mannerisms, characterisation. It’s uncanny.

To a lesser extent, Mrs Hughes reminds me of Frau Farbissina from Austin Powers.

Was it actually implied that Mary let Pamuk in her back door or did they leave it vague? I can swear I remember him saying something like "there's other ways to do it" but it's been 10 years

R291, there was some deleted dialogue in which Pamuk told Mary she would still be a "virgin" as long as she kept a vial of blood under the pillow on her wedding night.

So many posts but no one said this...chunky lord Grantham was the real sex pot. Especially in the earlier seasons.

I doubt a virgin in 1912 or whenever would let someone in her back door.

Did Kamal have a stiffy as those women carried him out?

Alfred and Ivy are the dullest characters in the whole series.

[quote] Bates thought it was unfair and told Barrow to say, “her ladyship’s soap” to O’Brien. I don’t think Barrow ever knew what that meant but it worked. O'Brien got scared and backed off.

It was the other way around. Bates was trying to help Thomas and asked him if there was anything he could use against O'Brien. Bates later whispered "her ladyship's soap" to O'Brien. He subsequently admitted to Anna that he didn't know what it meant.

Interesting that O'Brien must have confided in Thomas about the soap. They were never really friends, just allies. They teamed up because they were the two most amoral members of staff. I don’t think either of them ever particularly trusted each other, so it seems odd that O'Brien would give him information that he could one day use against her. Either the truth must have come out after a few drinks, or O'Brien was so guilt-ridden that she just HAD to confide in the closest thing she had to a friend.

I'm pretty dense, but even I could see that the Turkish Ambassador penetrated Mary anally.

r297 You must have a very large screen TV.

It could have been oral.

No, Lady Mary always had a very delicate palate, even as a little nipper. And Mr Pamuk had a good 9 inches.

Once again, thinking some 1913 virgin English Rose is going to let a man fuck her up the poop shoot is an anachronism. She’d be shocked & probably wouldn’t be able to accept him without screaming bloody murder. Pamuck was thinking oral or titty fucking.

poop chute, oops

I would have gladly given Mr Pahmuk my ass. Found him the best looking character over the entire series.

People of all classes and backgrounds have engaged in anal sex, throughout ancient history. Mormons supposedly do a lot of anal sex in order to be technical virgins at marriage.

[quote] Mormons supposedly do a lot of anal sex in order to be technical virgins at marriage.

Keyword “supposedly.”

Women don’t have prostate glands.

[quote]Once again, thinking some 1913 virgin English Rose is going to let a man fuck her up the poop shoot is an anachronism.

Thomas would have.

Yes Thomas would. But women didn’t - maybe prostitutes, but not wealthy aristocratic young virgins looking to marry a rich man. There was no way a rectal tear could be successfully dealt with back then. Especially by DrClarkson.

r307

I do see Thomas as a bossy bottom

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Lady Edith, apparently, had premarital, consensual, vaginal sex with Michael Gregson. (Edith bore Gregson's child. Gregson died in Germany, attempting to legally divorce his wife, who resided in an insane asylum. Gregson would then be free to marry Lady Edith.)

It's unclear as to whether or not Edith and Gregson engaged in anal sex, "motorboating," and/or oral sex.

I think Dr. Clarkson would, indeed, have done a fine job suturing a rectal tear on an English rose, i.e., Lady Mary.

Edith's daughter was a munter in the making

Another example of the feeble scriptwriting, Edith has an affair with a married man who can't get a divorce because his wife is institutionalized. The traaaaagedy of it all! Edith is a pure noble young woman who doesn't deserve this! It's so unfair that she can't be with her soulmate who is also pure but helpless. Going off to Germany was just bizarre (did the actor want off the show?)

Why couldn't Edith have an affair with an ordinary married man. Or divorced man. Someone who refused to marry her when she got pregnant...a cad! God knows, th at happened enough. A scandal, but not not this "two innocent people who just deserve all the happiness because they are Good".

Did anyone else think Robert seemed strangely unaffected by Sybil’s death? At first, I thought it was simply that men of his era weren’t expected to show emotion. But he cried (in front of Matthew, no less) after Cora’s miscarriage.

He also cried in the first episode when the heir sunk. If he'd listened to that Doctor Sybil would have had years to enjoy Tom's Irish sausage.

I had an aunt (a would-be sophisticate) who carried on an affair with someone married to an invalid (MS or really bad arthritis, I forget which) for 20 years. They eventually married. The groom had some money and real estate which the aunt coveted. It was still a bit of a scandal--I think in aristocratic circles, Edith & Gregson would have been more hushed-up.

Edith is a really snarky bitch in the early seasons, which makes it easier to hate on her as an irritating victim who makes bad choices in later seasons.

Edith is the Thomas of the upstairs crew. Thomas started off a conniving bad guy & so did Edith. Fellowes decided he had to clean up the major characters in order to keep the audience happy, so he made side characters the bad guys - Rose's mother, Jora Mormont, Mr Greene, the ex-Mrs Bates, the mean nanny/governess .

The bad guys could be banished at will.

Edith is the Thomas of the upstairs crew. Thomas started off a conniving bad guy & so did Edith. Fellowes decided he had to clean up the major characters in order to keep the audience happy, so he made side characters the bad guys - Rose's mother, Jora Mormont, Mr Greene, the ex-Mrs Bates, the mean nanny/governess .

The bad guys could be banished at will.

Did Dr. Clarkson ever visit Isobel's poop-chute?

Sybil was the unequivocal nice sister. Once she left, they couldn't have Mary and Edith be bitches, so that fell on more Mary, with Edith as the plain, doormat who made inept choices.

While the characters in Gosford Park tended to have multiple dimensions (Maggie Smith, the villlianous host and the truly awful Stephen Fry character being exceptions), even though it was constrained by the size of teh cast and the running time of the film. I suspect that Altman's improv approach may have helped that. In contrast the people on Downton Abbey became ever more cartoonish with time. Fellows didn't know what to do with Cora after season 1 and so she wound up with the same insipid lines for the rest of the show. Robert, at least, had an affair. He didn't know what to do with Branson after Sybil's death and the whole business with Batres ran on far too long. He should have been hung or whatever they did in those does and then Anna could have had the more intersting story line of wondering if he was guilty and whether she could love or trust again. The actors who left the show were smart---O'brien would have gotten ever more tedious (much like Thomas), Sybil's character only made sense as an occasional visitor which would have made it easier to come up with a decent plotline for Branson. Mathew really had nowhere to go beyond periodic clashes with Robert about modernizing the estate which easily would have become stale.

Was the Sybil actress fired after her sleazy sex video leaked and she was saying "Let Lady Sybil lick that arse!"?

[quote] Robert, at least, had an affair.

How completely pointless was that storyline? It came out of nowhere, ended abruptly and was never mentioned again.

The Lady Sybil actress seemed to disappear.

[quote]Sybil was the unequivocal nice sister. Once she left,

"LEFT"? I died, bitch!

She was in Harlots but they killed her character off.

Sybil died of eclampsia, not influenza

It's funny, I watched Downton Abbey religiously during its initial run but now I can't remember half the shit that happened on that show.

The second Lavinia started to look a bit peaky at the dinner table, I knew she was going to die of Spanish Flu, thereby paving the way for Matthew and Mary to marry guilt-free. That's how predictable that storyline was.

Matthew and Mary has zero chemistry.

Lavinia Swire and Evelyn Napier were basically plot devices which was probably the actors were so lackluster.

Poor Lavinia died of COVID. Cora and Carson caught it too and were bed ridden for days.

They should have developed Thomas's friendship/possible romance with the blind soldier a bit more. They killed him off in the very episode where he was introduced.

And the convenient plot hole of Lavinia's father leaving his money to Matthew.

Isobel gets on my wick. Yes, she’s principled and she’s generally right, but there’s something smug and self-righteous about her.

Mr. Swire owed Sir Richard money, and then suddenly he left Matthew enough money to buy Downton?

[quote]Isobel gets on my wick.

She wouldn't get on mine until after we got married.

R335 I never married you!

Get your facts right, Doctor!

And what about Spratt - the original DL icon??

R33 But could you imagine the world if Isobel was running it? There would be no fucking COVID and she'd put the deporables in their place.

I agree OP, Rob James Collier is one hot piece of man meat.

Spratt is a whiny bitch.

Yes, R338, the world would be a better place if it were run by someone like Isobel. But I still found her annoying, for some reason. Same with Daisy: she was absolutely right about the class system, but she grated on me nonetheless (probably because the actress was so stagey).

Daisy was always so pissy and moany. She found something wrong in everything. What she needed was an occasional light slam with a skillet by Mrs. Patmore. That would have kept her uppity little mouth shut.

Another awkward character, the firebrand schoolteacher who takes up with Branson after Sybil's death and oooaaah, wants ta see all the grand folks' bedrooms. Execrable writing.

That schoolteacher was obnoxious and ill bred. She was also a dumpy chipmunk and I think she was written off due to audiences hating her character.

I might be in the minority, but I preferred Rose to Sybil. At least Rose had flaws. Sybil was pretty much a full-blown Mary Sue.

Allen Leech is bulgerific.

Check out this animated gif of Leech from the image above. Flopping all over the place.

The olden days

I love how none of them aged a day in over a decade.

The age thing was a suspension of belief. The dog was the oldest living dog ever.

There was some notable middle aged pudge in the Downton movie.

I just looked it up and the dog in series 1 isn't actually Isis. There was a different lab, Pharaoh, who was killed off because the "actor" who played him clashed with one of the other dogs at the castle. Isis joins in 1916 and dies in 1924, so she wasn't actually that old.

I liked DA but the whole episode with the flower show and the dowager was cringe worthy. Did Fellowes think that no one had ever seen Mrs. Miniver? He didn't even bother changing the rose to another type of flower.

Edith definitely got the better bloke in the end. Not because Bertie was a marquess and Henry was a mechanic or something, but because Bertie seemed very sweet and decent. Henry was so dull, and his behaviour towards Mary was controlling (doesn't he say at one point that if she's going to reject him, he'll make it as uncomfortable as possible? Although that would probably be considered romantic by the standards of the day). His and Mary's romance was so lightweight. No chemistry at all. The only one of Mary's post-Matthew suitors who seemed a good match for her was Charles Blake.

I liked Mary with Lord Gillingham the best(other than Matthew)... I hate Henry

Mary's latter love interests are completely interchangeable with no real traits besides "man in love with Mary"

Henry Talbot was as interesting as watching paint dry.

Was Thomas a bottom or a top?

Thomas was versatile—top with nobles and bottom with working class blokes. He hated oral but wouldn’t you in an era when daily showers weren’t the norm.

I'd say a total bottom, R358

r360

bossy bottom

That goes without saying, R361

In most fanfiction Thomas is depicted as a top.

[quote]In most fanfiction Thomas is depicted as a top.

Yeah, but if you watch the movie, the king's valet is clearly the top between the two of them.

The film originally had a scene near the end in which Thomas phoned Richard (the handsome valet) and his wife answered. Julian Fellowes decided Thomas deserved a bit of happiness and cut it.

[quote]The film originally had a scene near the end in which Thomas phoned Richard (the handsome valet) and his wife answered. Julian Fellowes decided Thomas deserved a bit of happiness and cut it.

In the final season, Thomas had to find new employment. He broke down and said that Downton was the first place he felt like he belonged.

At the party when Carson's illness (Parkinson's from the look of it) came to light and he quit, they decided to bring Thomas back, but would have Carson provide input and guidance. As this is only a couple years since, it seems odd that they tried to make it some huge thing that Carson was coming back.

What they should have done was have Thomas use his powers for good instead of evil. I mean, does that plot really seem like a Thomas plot or a goody-goody Anna plot? I get that they gave him a romance, so wanted to give her more, but frankly Bates got almost nothing and Anna still had all her scenes with Mary.

Having Thomas get petty because Carson came back seemed like a huge backstep, especially with what Robert and Mary said afterwards about sacking him and principles.

[quote] Having Thomas get petty because Carson came back seemed like a huge backstep, especially with what Robert and Mary said afterwards about sacking him and principles.

It was the 573rd example of a character not being sacked for impertinence when they absolutely would have been IRL. The Crawleys let their staff get away with murder.

[quote] As this is only a couple years since, it seems odd that they tried to make it some huge thing that Carson was coming back. What they should have done was have Thomas use his powers for good instead of evil.

The Thomas character was largely amoral with an Achilles' heel of being sensitive to rejection. IMO, there were already enough stupid plot twists to create happy endings.

The time jump at the beginning of series four was so annoying. Why kill off Matthew and then not even show us the immediate aftermath? If we saw how the family and the servants reacted to Sybil’s death, why not Matthew’s?

R369 I think the time jump was primarily driven by Fellowes need to make Mary’s tedious courtships central. She could not have had a live interest for an entire season without the time jump. God she was tedious and I never understood how men were supposed to be attracted to her cold arrogance. But, that was a major thing on the show.

^ love interest, not live interest. Though certainly Matthew was not alive.

R370, they could have shown us the aftermath of Matthew's death in the first episode of series four, and then jumped ahead six months in the second episode (or even midway through the first). That way, Fellowes could still shoehorn in as many love interests for Mary as he wanted, but we would still have got to see Mary's reaction to losing her husband, Robert's to losing his heir, Isobel's to losing her son, etc. Sybil's death was so much powerful than Matthew's was, and part of the reason for that was that we saw the impact on the family and the servants.

R372 although Sybil was an anachronistic stereotyped class rebel she was still more interesting and likable than boring Matthew. Her death, therefore, was more powerful.

[quote] Matthew and Mary has zero chemistry.

In fairness to Mary, it wasn't in her nature to be attracted to a fatty. Later he went to America and lost a lot of weight, but by then she was already married to a her dream man, a tall stick.

If you put the personalities of Matthew Crawley and Henry Talbot together, you couldn’t make one interesting one.

[quote]If you put the personalities of Matthew Crawley and Henry Talbot together, you couldn’t make one interesting one.

Stop. We're already fans.

You don't have to emphasize the verisimilitude of its depiction of the British aristocracy.

Matthew and Henry are like the dream man of most DLers.

No intellect or personality to speak of, just a fun pretty slam piece to make us cum.

Why was Molesley so out-of-character in the film? He was nowhere that buffoonish in the TV series.

Hi -- Where are you guys watching the DA movie? On Amazon Prime, you have to purchase the movie and it's $19.99. Is there any other alternative? I'm not subscribed to Netflix. TIA.

r379

it's on hbo

Thank you, R380. I don't have HBO, either. I'd probably pay the $19.99, but it sounds like it's not a great movie.

I found the age gap between Bates and Anna distracting. When Anna was kind to him when he first arrived, I thought she was just being established as good-natured. When it became clear she was attracted to him I was like WTF?

Ran across this. I’d be shocked if Allen Leech and Rob James Collier have not messed around, their body language is incredible.

R382, I think Anna's character was supposed to be an old soul, someone who could look past Bates's physical exterior, including his cane & limp. I agree it was kind of a boring match for Anna. What's worse was pairing up Edith and Anthony Strallan, who was not attractive at all, IMO.

R384 Edith was never a looker plus she had a bastard daughter who was also fugly. She was lucky she got as many men as she did!

R383 I'd love to have a threesome with Allen & Rob. They are very chummy - its not the only clip of them behaving that way. There are others on YouTube.

R384, I didn't find it far-fetched. Edith was desperate to be loved. She was always going to latch on to the first man who showed an interest in her.

I'm not sure if you're aware but back then it was important for a girl to understand how to please her man if a successful match was to be made.

For that purpose the ladies were given private tutoring by the more respectable male servants, who would give honest feedback.

Here's a surviving image of Lady Sybil practising on Carson

Dollshouse Downton

The Thomas/Jimmy storyline was creepy. Why did Thomas have a thing for this little twerp who was at least ten years his junior? Couldn't they at least have cast an older actor as Jimmy?

Jimmy was gorgeous and had a nice arse

Did Carson fancy Lady Mary and pretend Mrs Hughes was her when he gave her a bit of rumpy pumpy?

Thanks for that mental image, R392

[quote] Blake just disappeared from the show, there was no explanation.

I think he said he was moving to Poland for business. I got the impression Mary was going to end up with him, but the actor decided to leave and they cobbled together the romance with Henry instead (which was why it was so rushed).

Even though Matthew is quite a boring character, the show loses something after his death.

About Allen Leech, he and his wife announced last year that they were expecting a baby, and she was already showing in September 2019, so the baby should have been born by now. But nothing seems to have been mentioned on either of their Instagram or Twitter accounts. They have shared a lot about themselves in the past, they even had photos of their wedding in Hello, so it seems strange not to have had an announcement about the birth, even if they didn't want to share photos yet. Did something happen, a stillbirth or late term miscarriage? If that was the case, I can see why they wouldn't feel able to talk about it.

I remembered that Allen Leech and his wife announced last year that they were expecting a baby, and she was already showing in September 2019, so going by that time scale, the baby should have been born by now. But nothing seems to have been mentioned on either of their Instagram or Twitter accounts. They have shared a lot about themselves in the past, they even had photos of their wedding in Hello, so it seems strange not to have had an announcement about the birth, even if they didn't want to share photos yet. Did something happen, like a stillbirth or late term miscarriage? Anyone heard anything?

Sorry for the double post.

In most seasons of Downton Abbey Thomas is a CUNT, others times they want you to be sympathetic to his plight as a GAY boy in 1920's England.