What do Europeans think of each other?

Europeans are still sleeping at this time, OP

In everyday life, there are still national stereotypes and sometimes prejudices* but, overall, as a peace project the EU has been remarkably successful!

I work in government (lower-tier senior official at a state level) and am in regular contact with officials in other EU (and sometimes non-EU) countries, and the atmosphere among my colleagues and me is very cordial. I can still remember when border crossings were a big thing, now it's mainly the adjustment from one style of traffic sign to the another. Also, you get used to the Euro; whenever I visit an EU country where I can't pay in Euro, it's very annoying.

*I sometimes wonder whether these prejudices aren't more classist in nature, since it's often people form the poorer, south-eastern EU countries that are discriminated against.

R2 Thanks for that. When I was in Austria this girl was making fun of some type of German accent. Imitating it by saying skkka or something.

I wonder about all those stereotypes they have of each other.

kekeeke

Don’t ask the English ... they have something nasty to say about everybody. Even the Welsh.

The English hate the French

The level of hate they have for each other is stronger, has more longevity (and contains more historical grievances), and is more ingrained than anything that can rival the current American interstate dysfunction.

Those bitches know how to hate each other.

Many Americans also tend to think of Europe as one single, united front, when there are European countries whose formation is relatively new and tenuous. Yugoslavia shattered into the Balkan wars. Spain could easily break up. Italy unified way after the US and still feels like separate kingdoms apathetic to one another.

Everyone hates the brits. Loud, drunk UK tourists have destroyed villages.

This is such an interesting topic to me, I'm colleagues with a very well educated Romanian couple but Jesus Christ are they steeped in the stereotypes. They poo-poo my objections to their broad brush as typical American PC "bull sheet" - as they call it. Jews are crafty (right out of the Nazi playbook). Brits are fey and sissified except for their warrior under class. Scandinavians are blonde whores, cheap and of questionable hygiene. The French are cheese eating colonizing rats with low self-esteem. The Germans are untrustworthy allies who will flip on a dime. Roma are a thieving, untrustworthy tribe. So many more stereotypes but I can't even think of them all at the moment. They do like the Italians, I must say.

They are both from a long line of university educators so I can't understand this. In fact, an uncle of one of them was shot and killed by Ceausescu's secret police for having forbidden literature that he had wrapped in a leather bag and buried in his backyard before it was discovered and he was executed. As intellectuals they were reviled and revered by the government so to see them perpetuate discrimination is shocking to me. Former Soviet states are still working through some shit. Not that I, as an American, should talk.

[quote] Those bitches know how to hate each other.

R7 You know this from personal experience?

R11, yes. My mom is from Italy, and just the decades-level level of animosity between town to town -- nevermind country to country -- is legion.

I despise the Parisians; arrogant. Dismissive. Rude.

Southern Italians and a lot of those people from newly democratic Eastern bloc don't have an understanding of not trying to scam you. Whenever any of them start a conversation with: "My friend..." Run like the wind.

I am always stunned when Americans compare their country spread over a continent, to a continent filled with countries, some old some new, but the people have probably been there since time immemorial. It's an argument I would never win, especially here on DL.

R12 has the best answer so far, though I can carry it a bit further to say that even people on the next street over or in the building next door are subject to criticism. To make any assumptions about what one country thinks about another is absurd. Small minded people and bigots are found everywhere.

I'm not going to tell you my nationality since its mostly obvious if you met me in person, but when I travel in Europe (and I've been to most every country for various lengths of time) I have no issues with anyone from any country. Even when I've been in Paris R13. I'm nice to everyone I meet and we all seem to get along quite well.

R13 Honest question: why would it stun you for Americans to compare themselves to Euros? It's the same factionalism as seen in all higher social mammals. It doesn't matter if you move the creature from one continent to another. The creature will behave as the creature's DNA instructs. Further, if you're a European, take a seat. You started this shit.

I don't think any of them trust the Germans and who can blame them.

What's remarkable to me about Europe is how splintered it is in such a relatively small area. All those different languages even within countries and animosities dating back centuries.

So W what do Europeans think of each other? Who hates who and why?

The basis of on-going European hatred of one another is due to eons of wars, invasions and conquests, everything from the Roman invasion all the way to WWII.

Separately, there is almost two eons of Church-fomented, culturally-entrenched and institutionalized European bigotry and hatred of Jews.

Greece and Italy: ”Una Faccia, Una Razza”: The Fascinating Story of Greco-Italian Bonds

With a history together since ancient times: One Face, One Race.

The phrase focuses on the fact that many Italians and Greeks look so much alike, that it is a self-evident proof that these two people belong to the same ethnic group. Although somewhat exaggerated, this is not completely wrong.

Modern DNA research has shown that many people living now in southern Italy share almost identical genetic information with a majority of the people who currently live in metropolitan Greece.

Back in 1998 I was on holidays in Europe visiting a number of countries by car. It was also the same time as the borders were coming down and you could drive into almost every country without a passport check.

The one exception was Germany into Denmark. I said to my partner 'Clearly the Danish haven't forgotten WW2'.

You can't compare the EU and Europe to the US. First of all there are many different languages and cultures and the differences between western europe and eastern europe are economically pretty big. We don't feel "European", we feel German., Italian, Belgian or Dutch etc I don't like the french btw, arrogant and nationalistic and very bad at speaking foreign languages.

R21 WW2 remains a big thing in Europe, it is still commemorated

R1 can you please call or text the Europeans and see why they haven't replied as I suspect they should be up for work by now unless they're Spaniards. Lazy bitches. I'd hate them if they weren't so sexy.

Publicly or privately? Publicly everyone gets along marvellously and we grateful to be part of this magnificent European Union.

Privately, Europeans dislike Africans, Jews, Muslims, the shithole of Belgium and its sullen people, and ideologically-blinded power-obsessed German politicrats.

R24 oh come on now I've enjoyed some lovely holidays in Belgium growing up;) I admit that we see our Belgian "neighbours" as silly.....

^^^r24 Why Belgium? Tell me more. I think of chocolates and sexy pouty lipped boys in berets riding bikes and carrying baguettes with wool scarfs fluttering in the wind.

When were you last in Belgium, nanna? 1934?

R27 I laughed! 🤣

Answer: Never - but let me have my little Belgian chocolatier fantasy, ok?

this

What are the gays' stereotypes of each other?

Everyone considers the Germans to be filthy, energetic, shameless pigs in casual sex situations. German cities are considered sexual playgrounds for sex tourism. However, the Germans who are not pigs are lonely hearts, who stick to you after you pay them any attention whatsoever. In other words they become leeches with pathetic, romantic claims on you.

The Dutch gay men are tall and hung and friendly but with no warmth. Very matter of fact to the point of cynicism.

Spanish cities are also valued sexual playgrounds. A hot bed for reasonably priced whores from around the world but especially Latin American whores. And Spanish sluts. The Spanish have a likeable, unsophisticated, unthreatening machismo.

London is a place to score reliably big dick attached to fetishists who are also heavy drinkers.

Irish men are prized for being sweethearts, generous, and who have the gift of gab and sarcasm.

Everyone is intimated about having French and Italian lovers because they will both be "heady".

The French reliably offer a balance between keeping up the interest in bed and in conversation. Is the Frenchie fucking you because he likes your brain or your body? Both. One gets the sense that the liaison is governed by a well-oiled, diplomatic, understated Racinian intellect. (Russians and Poles of the middle to upper classes are also intellectually and analytically driven, except they are showy about it, unlike the French.)

The Italian fling will be heady because he will love your soul and be romantic about it. (Cross the sea to Tunisia, then Algeria, two countries where you'll get the same attention which is off-putting to the typical European who is not soulful.)

The Swiss and the Austrians are of little interest except for the boys from the Alps, who are fetishised and are equally available in France, Italy and Slovenia.

Overall Italians and Spaniards are the most liked, but within Italy every region holds a negative stereotype about the other. The only region in Italy that Italians can agree the people are lovely are in Abruzzo.

OP is really stupid to liken the European Union to the US. But I guess most Americans would be this narrow and stupid like OP anyway. Please go back to high school and study world history again.

The framing of the post and a number of the responses have made this thread its own stereotype but here goes my take.

Most of us in Northern and Western Europe see ourselves as mostly rational and generally progressive, but we know much of this is not true and not universal. The visions we had for our own countries as being progressive and caring for our people are unraveling for various reasons, including the rise of wealth, decline of industrialism, and so on. On social issues, most of these countries have made gay marriage legal without being forced to do it. Most rank highly on care for children. We're working hard on gender equality and so on. We accept human rights standards developed internationally as our obligations (though begrudgingly and we fail to implement them). Greed and conservative politics go hand in hand. Cut funding for health care. Ignore the elderly. Steer tax benefits and cuts to people who want to own more property.

When you think of Europe as the entire continent and where it meets with Asia, it gets trickier. The Council of Europe includes a number of nations that have horrible conditions for their people and are egregious when it comes to human rights violations. The EU's aim to be a bigger economic power has become a nightmare with Poland, Hungary and Romania becoming members, with their totalitarian bullshit. We have enough problems with the economic instability in Southern Europe. Russia is a threat and likes to fuck with the rest of Europe because it can. It is massively successful at many things and resents the rest of Europe for treating Russians like the thugs they aim to be. Vicious cycle. Anxieties about this make Northern and Western Europeans more insular and more skeptical of the European project.

In Northern and Western Europe, most of us don't hate Jews, Muslims, etc., R24. Most of us are not religious and we see religion as a problem and a basis for hate and demands to tolerate discrimination. I am a pediatric surgeon and just last year had to try to help two children who had injuries due to circumcision (one Jewish, one Muslim). Unnecessary and yet we're forced to tolerate it. The refugee crisis has made immigration worse, as utopian efforts have turned into economic and social crises. Gangs, drugs, guns, shootings are connected to it, not because most refugees and immigrants are connected to them but because they're part of an underclass that reasonably managed social welfare states were not prepared to absorb.

And yes, we do love traveling in the Schengen Area, are generally grateful for the EU, and see all of our European neighbors as complex. We know from experience that peace and social coherence have to be maintained and will fall apart quickly.

And in my opinion, Belgian guys have been some of the best fucks of my life.

[quote] Overall Italians and Spaniards are the most liked

You think?

[quote] The Dutch gay men are

...gangly skinflints.

[quote] Irish men are prized for being

...tedious alcoholics.

[quote]The French reliably

...like Tin Tin and fey droll humour. Which is enough to damn them to eternity with the Belgians.

Swedes complain about the racism they receive about from Danes.

No we don't, R35.

[quote]In Northern and Western Europe, most of us don't hate Jews, Muslims, etc., [R24]. Most of us are not religious and we see religion as a problem and a basis for hate and demands to tolerate discrimination.

Europe has ALWAYS treated Jews as a separate national identity and culture. "Religion" was never part of European lexicon. While Western Europeans are being socially inculcated by their media and government to accept Muslims, Jews remain in Europe as they have for the past 1,700 years; suspect and targets of denigration and revulsion.

I think the general feeling (whether warranted or now) is that when people travel to foreign countries they expect a portion of the population to try to cheat them, especially when they don't know the language. I experienced this myself on a number of trips to Venice, where I was traveling by myself. In big and little ways, many of the local people cheat tourists. On one hot day, I was at the Lido having a drink in a little bar waiting for the water taxi back to Venice, when the person I was having a drink with suddenly had a huge altercation with the bartender in Italian. Why? Because he had stingily put exactly one ice cube into each of our drinks, which melted immediately in the August heat, and when my Roman companion requested some additional ice cubes, the bartender was trying to sell them to him for the equivalent of 50 cents apiece. His take on the matter? He said, "These Venetians, they are all thieves - the second they hear from your accent that you're not native, they scheme ways to cheat you". Another time, I was trying to buy a piece of fruit bread (sort of like a not-very-sweet pastry) for breakfast in a neighborhood restaurant. The person behind the counter cut a piece for me from the one I pointed to and handed it out to me. The part facing me was fine, but the entire back side of it was covered in mold. The person took it back from me and replaced it, but without the slightest apology or acknowledgment that he had passed me something inedible.

Then there is bargaining. In Florence, (in Venice too), bargaining is sort of required - for EVERYTHING. I tried to get a room in a pensione and was quoted a price. I turned around to figure out what it would be in dollars with the conversion rate, and the innkeeper quickly reduced it by 15,000 lire. (What it should have been to begin with). The same with buying goods at the leather market in Florence or the lace work on the island of Burano. Every time I shrugged or turned away, the price was lowered by 1/3. "For you, the special price". This is a challenge for people who come from places where there is no bargaining.

But I don't think of stuff like that as branding a nation of people as anything in particular. For Italians, bargaining is a fun game. Cheating is partly a matter of seeing if the other person is on his toes, or whether the cheater will be exposed and called on it. Germans are boisterous and loud in public places when they travel, but generally quiet and serious in their own country. Etc etc

Germans are too serious

r37, you cannot generalize about Europe this way any more than you can about the treatment of Jewish people and their faith. There is of course a faction of every culture (including the Americas) that have a visceral hate for Jewish people and their faith. It by no means represents a majority view, not even a significant minority view. There is another faction from the pro-Palestine, critics of Israel that has troubling overlaps with attacks on Jews as a people, but again this is a minority view.

I have a colleague who is married to someone who is Jewish and from Israel. I spend time with their family and therefore have been to their synagogue several times. I have worked with Jewish families and Muslim families (again on the circumcision question). The majority of people I know are adamantly opposed to anti-Jewish sentiments and support the freedom of religion. Even Muslim groups are now forming alliances with Jewish groups in Europe on these questions.

You're just stereotyping.

R40 You are completely ignorant of Europe's attitude toward and treatment of Jews today, yesterday, a hundred years ago and a thousand years ago. The same slanders and discrimination, the same attacks perpetrated in the 11th century are heard and seen today. Europe's ancient Jew hatred has neither disappeared or dissipated. To assert that it's a "minority view" is ludicrous.

And again you err using the term "religion" which is non-European. Xtian Europe has viewed Jews as a NATION of outlaws for almost two eons.

In Heaven the cooks are French, the policemen are English, the mechanics are German, the lovers are Italian and the bankers are Swiss - whereas in Hell the cooks are English, the policemen are German, the mechanics are French, the lovers are Swiss and the bankers are Italian.

Spaniards aren’t white.

I have lived in four different countries from top to bottom of the continent. And two facts are consistent.

1) The closer they live to us, the more awful we think they are.

2) Most of the stereotypes are largely true.

R32, I'm sorry, I'm trying to come down to your level. It is what a German exchange student compared it to once, which was clearly wrong as anyone who looks at a fucking map can see it's a different setup.

We... don't really tend to think about each other all that much, unless there's some sort of a political brouhaha with the border or shared energy, or something like that. The rule of thumb when it comes to Europe is that you think of your neighbour to the south and east as weird and a bit behind, while you're envious of your neighbour on your northern/western border.

I've always been fascinated with how the US states perceive each other, though there's so much constant movement and travel across the continent, I guess it's completely different.

r45 Don't bother with that rude-ass poster. You'll see the EU described differently depending on how much the person describing it supports the idea of the EU. The support has actually gone up since the Brexit referendum and it should go up even more once the Brits go skint because of it. And it'll get even stronger without them vetoing everything.

Thanks for the tour guide from Mr. International Slut at R30!

If you have a French person, a German person, and an American flyover all in the same room, the two Europeans are bound to strike up a conversation and alliance with each other rather than with the fat American in white sneakers. They’ll smoke cigarettes, talk about politics, art, and social issues, while the American talks about how large his refrigerator is.

So funny when people here tell their stories of European stereotypes and they still use Lira instead of Euro. You immediately know their last visit was more than 20 years ago and so much has changed in the meantime these opinions don't really matter anymore. Some Italian cheated you 30 years ago? Wow, big deal. I was traveling all over Italy last year and experienced nothing but lovely, honest people. You ask upfront what they charge for service, never order or buy something without knowing the price first, book your hotel online via booking.com etc. and you will be fine. Italians are also required by law to always give you a receipt. Do not eat at a restaurant in Venice or Rome when there are no prices on the menue. Follow these simple rules everywhere on the planet and you should be fine.

[quote] Jews remain in Europe as they have for the past 1,700 years; suspect and targets of denigration and revulsion.

Obviously, this is not the case. This statement is only one good example for online conversations perpetuating hunches and feelings toward a topic, preferably leaving data out of the conversation.

I also think that 'hating' other nations is the wrong choice of words. People like stereotyping, so complicated matters can be digested easier. But stereotyping doesn't equate to hate. That educated Romanian couple upthread stereotyped the hell out of everybody, but I doubt they hate everybody they stereotype. I think hating and stereotyping are both based on more or less deliberate ignorance. But to me hate always seems to be final. Mere stereotyping seems to leave room for wiggle-room once more information comes in.

The Spanish and French constantly quibble about their foreskins.

One more sentiment: To me, European countries work a lot like a family . Can't live with them, can't live without them. There is the know-it-all, the warm and fuzzy, the annoying jolly one, the show-off etc. Some of them you can't stand, and some of them you respect more than you like them. But once in a while you feel like you miss them, and you go for a visit.

[quote]Obviously, this is not the case.

Obviously, R50 has not read a European paper or been in France, Belgium, Germany, Sweden or England, where Jew hatred is active, vicious and not an absurd philosophical discussion. Belittling and dismissing Europe's ancient and on-going anti-Jewish bigotry and hatred is simply more of the same.

R48 That sounds like a joke a Bulgarian chicken farmer in a wife beater would tell.

R10: you should remind your colleagues that all of Europe looks down on Romania.

and the rest of eastern europe....

R55 - even Albania?

Here's my experience: most decisions in Germany are made from an idiological standpoint -- ideologies small and large. It's absolutely fucking exhausting. They tie themselves in brain-churning knots over stuff which no one else gives a toss about. On stuff people do care about they take to the next level of hysteria.

Secondly, every German is hardwired for fascism. The leftist ones that quiver when they tell you they loathe fascism with every fibre of their being -- they would think nothing of stringing up anyone who disagreed with their route to salvation if they achieved unlimited power.

Swedes are like second tier Germans. Relentlously, cheerlessly exhaustingly point-by-point-by-endless-point mini-fascists. e.g. They were the only country in the world to force gay saunas to close when AIDS arrived, which gives you glimpse of the mentality -- and by excluding married bisexuals and men who don't identify as gay from a source of community information and comfort undoubtedly increased exposures as they went elsewhere. Forcing Sweden to take Africans was the cruelest thing the UN ever did. Sending them to Sweden, Norway, Poland, is a just slow punishment by mental alienation. People can learn a new culture, and perhaps deal with racism, but generational societal thought structure in an overly-rationalist hell like Sweden is a whole different ball game. Which is why it has been a disaster. Just like Germans, Swedes Think Different. Norwegians are only slightly less exhausting.

I think most €uropeans get along perfectly fine, as long as politics and border disputes are left out of the discussion. Yeah, people have lots of stereotypes about other nations (and those stereotypes often turn out to be very much true) but luckily most €uropeans have a great sense of humor and have no problem making fun out of themselves, which is something Americans are sorely lacking, in my experience at least. Americans tend to get pretty defensive when the 'Merican way of life is being mocked.

And we don't hate the Jews, because there aren't really any left around to be hating on. €uropeans nations now have a new common enemy: Roma people and migrants from the Middle East (someone above mentioned that €urope looks down on Romania, and its large Roma population is the exact reason for that). I hate those thieving gypsies too (because I personally had my house broken into by them recently) but I have absolutely nothing against Arab migrants...Probably because I have a thing for big fat cut muslim cock.

R41 is so full of nuttiness that it's transparent lunacy. The term "religion" is non-European? Europe in its entirety (unqualified) views Jews (a people) as a "nation" of "outlaws"? No across the board. Accusations of ignorance manifesting delusion. (And using the term Xtian to top it off).

R53 Please do list the articles from any mainstream newspaper in Sweden where "Jew hatred is active".

Charles’s son Harry will surely be in the Royal Box at the coronation and follow The Prince of Wales in the procession out of the abbey.

oops

[quote]I am a pediatric surgeon and just last year had to try to help two children who had injuries due to circumcision (one Jewish, one Muslim).

Here’s an example of how Europeans fail, again. By looking down on or disapproving of the practice, and forcing these Jews and Muslims to do it at home, you increase the risk of injuries. Ask yourselves why these injuries are rare in North America, where it is widespread, and Anglo-Saxon countries like the U.K. and Australia? Because qualified medical staff are available to do it instead of trying to convince them that it’s “unnecessary” when we know that it is here to stay.

My point? Europeans’ can’t help thinking their culture is morally superior, even when it’s not. Europe is not a good place for the free-spirited who don’t want to comply with societal norms. In that way, Europe is constricting and suffocating, but very few Europeans notice it because it’s embedded in their psyche. With one exception, the U.K. Big nation of free-thinkers, more aligned with the U.S. and we see how it worked out when they tried to yoke them to the E.U.

Why is someone trying to deny Jew-hatred in Europe when it was a major issue in the just concluded British elections and a big current issue in France? Two of the most influential European nations. What, does he think we can’t read?

I loved in Holland for 4 years.

Everybody in Europe hates the Germans. Everybody.

R60 is a fantacist and apologist, who truly believes active, vicious Jew hatred in Europe (and Sweden) does not exist because he chooses not to see it.

Blacks/Africans are only truly integrated into the cultures of Britain, France, Portugal and Belgium. And these countries all have a history of colonialism. Outside of these, they will always be seen as the other and foreign, often blamed for problems they did not cause or are not a part of.

Take for example the posts above talking about “forcing” the Africans on the Swedes. The fact is is, African migrant numbers are tiny compared with those from the Middle East and Asia. But because they’re black and therefore easily visible, of course they standout and will bear the brunt of the hate.

Visiting various parts of Italy these past few weeks, I’m stricken by how significantly fewer the Africans are as opposed to when I was here five years ago. I asked an Italian who told me “Salvini got rid of them”. Senegalese vendor who said, Italy is never their destination when crossing the sea, majority aim to eventually go to France because they are French-speakers with most others targeting better living conditions in Northern Europe with the U.K. being the Eldorado for many. But the right in Italy didn’t hesitate to blame them for all sorts of ills including unemployment (even though few ever got any jobs).

Butwhat Brexit and the rebel easterners (Poland, Hungary, Romania) the European project isn’t viable and it’s starting to splinter and crumble. We might see the end in our lifetimes.

'We are concerned about anti-Semitism in Sweden, there's no doubt'

Swedish Prime Minister Stefan Löfven's visit to Israel included attending a major event to commemorate victims of the Holocaust, but also discussing concerns about anti-Semitism in Sweden today.

Circumcision is banned in Australia, r63, you nutty fuck - and seen as barbaric in most progressive countries.

"...IT's nothin like that. All the countries are far apart from each other and they none of them speak each other's languages. And they all hate each other's guts." - Bette Midler, from the movie "Divine Madness."

R63 Britian is soon to be the poorest country of the group of EU countries they once belonged to. They have dug their own grave and the brits will suffer from the economic problems that are the inevitable consuequene of Brexit the next decades. The poverty rates might match the US sooner than we think.

Americans wouldn't want to see any states leave the union?

Speak for yourself, OP. I would love to lose some red states. They have the highest rates of poverty, the lowest rates of college degrees, and they consistently vote for the political party that keeps widening the gap between the haves and have nots.

Looking at you, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, et al.

R69 Banned? Uh, not really:

Cosmetic circumcision for newborn males is currently banned in all Australian [bold]public hospitals[/bold], South Australia being the last state to adopt the ban in 2007; [bold]the procedure was not forbidden from being performed in private hospitals[/bold].

[quote] Looking at you, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, et al.

Big surprise you want to get rid of the states with the highest percentages of blacks. Your racism is showing, R72.

Yeah that would be so wise, R72, to have them leave.

Let's create a country in the middle of another country and watch it go to shit! Let's see refugees from that country spill into our country when it gets bad! Let's have them have ever more reason to create their own army so we can go to war with our neighbors, like the former USSR.

Real smart. Unless you mean you want them to disappear.

r60, wrong again. Sweden legalized circumcision specifically to prevent circumcisions at home. It still doesn't make it necessary for any medical reason and yes, we have injuries to children. Those are facts.

r66 if anyone is a fanaticist, it's you, and I have made no apologies for anti-Semitism. It exists everywhere. In the US, Jews have been stabbed and killed. Not in Sweden. Nor is it representative of all of Sweden or the Swedish press. The Swedish government, as you post, takes it seriously. Funny how you twist that against Sweden rather than for it. We are well aware that we have a surging nationalist party that started with Nazi connections. You have fascists in the US. We all do. But that does not represent the majority of Swedes. We don't know where anti-Semitiism is coming from, but even the Muslim community in Sweden has stood up for the Jewish community out of concern that it's coming from their own community. We at least are concerned and addressing it.

And whether or not one of you are the person claiming anti-Semitism is active in the Swedish press, posting an article expressing concern about anti-Semitic thugs shows exactly the opposite.

German and Austrian people are the weirdest on the planet. Everything about them is awkward, especially their sense of humor.

Please more opinions on nationalities - and less about skews and Muslims.

I’m always curious how EU people see the French - as an American, they all seem like a pain in the ass. Curious if Europeans are treated differently.

Italy is the only place I hate because of the complete chaos and lack of civility and order. And it seems like everyone is out to cheat you. The nice architecture isn’t worth the hassle - especially now with way too many tourists. The absence of gay life also makes it unappealing.

I love Netherlands because it’s so efficient, practical and accepting. They can be harshly cold - but never feel like they are condescending. Just practical.

R78 the French are horrible. Frog eating, chauvinists, it's like it would hurt them to try and speak English or try and be polite. I mean not all of us Europeans speak a lot of French. We prefer English.

I think the Brits are polite in general, I've never felt unwelcome there.

Austrian friends think they're better than Germans.

[R69], my experience has been the opposite of yours. The French, the Parisian French, were perfectly charming to me. After six visits to England I'll return to see England. But I'm not going back to see the English.

Oachkatzlschwoaf R77

Lived in Europe 30 years, here are my sweeping generalizations:

Best: Italians & Spanish .....warm, friendly, joyous, know how to live. The Italians get extra points for style.

Worst: the Germans.... dull, overly cerebral, there's a sadness there.

I like the Brits, the right ones. loyal, like to have a good time, like to drink and party.

The French...I admire them. Parisians are like New Yorkers. Smart. Opinionated.

Totally true about Austrians feeling themselves very superior to Germans. An Austrian friend once explained it to me thus:

"I mean we are talking about people who put SAUCE on their wiener schnitzel! Barbarians."

Well hopefully the immigrants to Germany will help loosen that country up a bit. Immigrants helped America. No country is better off being completely homogeneous. The children of the immigrants who grow up speaking perfect German and have German values are going to teach the Germans to be more open minded. I believe immigrants saved America in a similar fashion.

Then I see things like this and realize Germans aren't as egalitarian as they appear. They have a lot to learn about people not German.

"In case the N word robs us?" Ugh!

Zelig is alive and well, trolling on datalounge; you'd be hard-pressed to find a more pompous lying bore outside the Donald White House.

[quote]Then I see things like this and realize Germans aren't as egalitarian as they appear. They have a lot to learn about people not German.

The immigrants in Germany have a lot to learn from the Germans.

R85 except governments in Europe are generally investing as little as possible in language classes for immigrants and most native people also speak English so I believe immigrants are not that much encouraged to learn about the language of their country of residence. Even 3rd generation immigrants speak f.e arabic with their children. I can't confirm they generally learn to speak the language like a native speaker.

[quote]except governments in Europe are generally investing as little as possible in language classes for immigrants

Totally false.

R88, don't say that.

I am from french and italian descent and have spent years in England. This is my take: southern France doesn't bother me and Northern Italy is OK. Spain, southern italy, greece don't bother me but I wouldn't go. I don't know if Portugal counts as a country. Monaco and switzerland are nice. I love the British Isles. Anywhere east of switzerland is just a bunch of nazis and commies. Not real countries anyway . Hard pass. There is no way that Russia and Turkey are European countries. It's just a joke. Anything North of Belgium( which doesn't register as a country IMO) are another bunch of nazis. That includes the netherlands, (which are 'tards nazis) scandinavia, etc. Ireland doesn't count. So acceptable Europe IMO is limited to the French Riviera, Northern Italy, the UK, Monaco and Switzerland. The rest is to be avoided at all cost.

[quote]So acceptable Europe IMO is limited to the French Riviera, Northern Italy, the UK, Monaco and Switzerland.

Try the Amalfi Coast and report back to us.

Gawd the trolls here. I can't think of a European nation who will give citizenship to an immigrant who can't speak the national language. Residency yes. Citizenship, no.

R92, Portugal isn’t a country? Nothing East of Switzerland is a country? WTF?

R86 for vocal racist invective the Dutch lead the pack. While Brits may silently think xenophobically and Franks & Germans may grumble sotto voce about foreigners, the Dutch will conversationally tell and even openly shout at minorities to “go home”.

I visited The Netherlands in 2016 and was taken aback by how unabashedly these sentiments were expressed by all native Dutch, from the elderly to the children with no apparent distinction in societal strata. I once asked a middle-class well-educated 13 year-old girl to refrain from throwing the ‘n’ word around (she was speaking English to me as her tutor); she only gave me a dirty look and loudly continued her little tangential tirade about “filthy blacks and greedy Jews” (curiously she had nothing to say about Arabs...). In fairness she had been a victim of a carjacking incident by a gang of dark youths that year, but one would hope that a teen could think critically enough to avoid a reaction of kneejerk blanket racism.

The Dutch don’t like Brits much either - they see us as lazy wastrel profligates with too much pride for little merit - and I can’t say I blame them (though they forget we are quite charming with it!). They are however very fond of their German brethren and fondly tolerate the white native French as one might a snooty well-meaning cousin. I’m not sure what they think of Italians or Eastern Europeans, but I’m afraid to go back and ask.

It’s a pity, superficially, as the Dutch are a strapping handsome good-looking people.

I thought the older Dutch still loathe the Germans for the Occupation from 1940-1945.

The dutch are an entire nation of racist cunts. They are worse than the nazis. Everybody hates them except the nazis, sorry, germans. Everybody hates the French too. And the British. The British hate everyone. The French despise all other countries. So do the scandinavian. Etc..

[quote]They are however very fond of their German brethren

Shows right there how little you know about that country.

Never had any problem in Paris. Just remember people in big cities are not on your schedule and that other societies have other social rules. Like keep your voice down in public or don't ask people what they do for a living. Other than that there are jackasses everywhere.

R92, maybe for you but some black Americans have a hard time in Milan, calling it one of the worst places for racism, outside New York City. So as long as you're the right color, I guess.

I can't wait for the day where people, no matter what they look like can travel anywhere and the whole world is in peace. Maybe when aliens come and make other humans not seem so bad, I don't know.

[quote]maybe for you but some black Americans have a hard time in Milan, calling it one of the worst places for racism, outside New York City. So as long as you're the right color, I guess.

Now you're even winning about NYC? Good grief!

I legitimately want California gone at this point.

*whining

It's called discussion, Charlie Brown.

I wouldn't mind talking about math, space, hiking, swimming whatever you prefer, but we're not sitting down to for tea and coffee, are we? It's typing on a thread.

As a result of WWI and WWII, the French dislike the Germans. But they really, really despise the British.

The American (un)education system in full display at r92. This is the junk you’re churning out to the world.

R107, don’t be naive. R92 is joking or has traumatic brain injury.

R106, The French and the English have an intense rivalry that goes back centuries. It is especially noticeable in their colorful slang phrases:

A "French letter" is English slang for condom, but in French slang it is "capote anglaise" (English hood).

To have the "French disease" means you have syphillis, but in French, this is "la maladie anglaise."

"Les Anglais ont débarqué!" (The English have arrived/landed!) means a woman is on her period.

"Le vice anglais" is slang for homosexuality, while the verb "anglaiser" means to sodomize.

If you possess "dents à l'anglaise" (English teeth), it means you have buck teeth.

"Jouer au billard anglais" (to play English billiards) means to have sex.

To "take a French leave" means to depart or be absent without notice or permission, but in French, this is known as "filer à l'anglaise."

To prepare meals "cuisson à l'anglaise" (cooking English-style) means you have simply boiled it.

The Scottish, however, are beloved by the French and have had an Auld Alliance dating back to the 13th century.

I’m American. Parisians really are cunts. My first time there, some bitch screamed at me like a banshee. The send time, one screamed at my friend. No one in any other European country has ever yelled at me or my traveling companion. Though I did come across a bossy cunt in London, a year or two ago, but nothing compared to a tirade in French.

I have found that every European I meet socially who learns I’m American, feels compelled to explain why they are superior to Americans and American (Republican) Presidents. Usually I just think, “that’s nice, dear”. It is as if they suffer from mass insecurity and will never forgive America for its role in WWII; or WWI, for that matter.

Immigrants and people applying for citizenship have to do a course yes but the level they have to learn is very low, in fact it really isn't much. Also language courses are for 90% depending on local volunteers to teach the refugees and immigrants.

[quote]It is as if they suffer from mass insecurity and will never forgive America for its role in WWII; or WWI, for that matter.

What age are you? Surely you must understand that the two world wars are the last thing on the minds of the younger generations in France. Do you actually think there are people under 60 in France today who are seething with resentment over WWI, which ended over a century ago?

R98 It depends on who you talk to and in which area of the country in my experience. I know many who welcome refugees and don't hate muslims f.e. On the other hand the who immigration system is not helping much to help immigrants adapting to Dutch society hence the fact the more ignorant Dutch people feel "foreigners" refuse to adapt.

R112 Understood, but we cannot underestimate the potential for ethnic, religious, or nationalistic depictions to morph into negative stereotypes that can be passed down through the generations resulting in tragic consequences.

Germany is a beautiful country and the Germans I've encountered have all been nice and friendly. Compared to other countries I have travelled, they also seem to be honest and helpful people. No one tried to scam me and everyone had no problem speaking English (compared to France or Italy). Berlin is especially full of young, artistic people and the city is vivid and beautiful in summer with lots of stuff to do and see and probably the most amazing night life/clubs in Europe. I don't get the hate for this country here, but from what I hear it is mostly stereotypes about pensioners from the UK, Netherlands, France etc. fighting for the best sun beds by the pool in hotels in Spain and Southern Europe. Also if you've ever worked with Germans, they have the best work ethics, show up on time and are usually highly qualified (from engineers to plumbers).

I am dead serious and have a perfectly functional brain..Europeans, except for a few english people and Northern italians, are retarded scum.

I lived in Germany for many years and worked in an international company alongside people from all over Europe. I think there tends to be more resentment and stereotypes among regions of a certain country than on a national scale. For example, there were 2 Belgian girls in my dept - one from Flanders, one from Wallonia - and they didn't get along at all. And living in Berlin in the 2000s, I know there was still a lot of resentment and distrust among the "Ossies" and "Wessies." Then you have the Bavarians and the Swabians who are much more conservative and have their own prejudices against Berliners (and vice versa). I'm sure there are similar divisions in Italy, France, etc.

[quote] Europeans, except for a few english people, are retarded scum.

Oh, ta very much. Most kind.

What's interesting is British people who don't consider themselves to be European. They talk about Europe like they separate from it. I guess they are but with the Chunnel, not really.

So does every country feel like that? We're the French, Czechs, Swiss, Italians, but the rest of Europe is Europe. Anyway, I'm very envious of Europeans. They have more people and seem to care more for their people's standard of life too. I wish I could move there but they wouldn't want me.

You know reading this. There are a lot of parallels between Europe and the United States. And if you think we only speak one language in the U.S. you're SORELY mistaken. I've heard plenty of Italian, Spanish, Hindu, German, Russian etc.

Its just our lingua franca is unofficially English.

And here's a good one _ I had my genetic sequence run - I'm predominantly form north and south European stock. To look at me I'm identified as Italian American. From the hazel, almost green eyes, to the curly/wavy hair and of course hair everywhere. Shaving the body would be an exercise in futility.

Now imagine this Italian American being transplanted into the state of Georgia. Yeah I know. But they love me down here.

[quote] . To look at me I'm identified as Italian American. From the hazel, almost green eyes, to the curly/wavy hair and of course hair everywhere.

R120 Hon, I am pretty sure I would LOVE you ' down there ' too

[quote] R112: Do you actually think there are people under 60 in France today who are seething with resentment over WWI, which ended over a century ago?

Yes. Insecurity is persistent.

Lichtenstein is wealthier than all of them.

Yeah but it’s got bad Wifi.

I think Germans think of Austria the same way Texans think about those in Colorado. And it ain’t nice.

R120 sounds hot.

R41 that’s because jewish culture hasn’t changed. Why then would criticism change?

Germany is to Austria as France is to Belgium and Britain is to Ireland

R125 wtf? I think people who live in Colorado...are fine. They just legalized weed, so lucky! I can't wait to go skiing in Aspen and Vail again.

Just a small reminder. Most of Europe is free of war since 75 years. Well not all of it, we had the war about the former Yugoslavia a decade ago, which was a last echo of the cold war. Of course people have still their prejudices. As more as people travel, which is quiet easy now in the Schengen room without borders and passport control, people are more easy with the handling of other culture and language. The good educated ones travel easy, they mostly speak three languages, English, German or French or one of the southerns like Italian or spanish.

Europe in those days can be great fun. No borders and and mostly the same currency.

Yes, we make fun of the others, there are still sterotypes, because some of them are true.

But at the end, Europe and the European Union is a great idea.

I'm French and can confirm this, R112. No seething going on here.

The right kind of people will always get along

It was so long ago that only old people remember it.

Bullshit. The French HATE the germans with the heat of a thousands suns. They still call them' les bochs' '. Same with the Brits.' 'les rosbifs' '. And everybody EVERYBODY hate the French. These pretentious smelly obnoxious racist cunts. I know I do.

r133. And at the end it does not really matter. There are still ressentiments between Germans and Frenchs until today. But traveling and meeting the other, like in urban partnership/jumelage for example, is a good way to understand each other. At the end of the day you've met nice people, had a couple of drinks with them, showed them your home and home countryside and they leave you as a friend.

Do Europeans resent the British for essentially making the union more vulnerable with brexit? In the last three years I've heard everything from, "they'll won't leave" (before the vote) to "they were lied to" and "they're going to be a third world country" (after the vote) to holding out hope for a new referendum and encouraging parliament to scupper Boris Johnson's plans, to final resignation after the election and more predictions of economic disaster for the UK.

And do Europeans understand the innate British hate for Europe and their refusal to even call themselves European? Are Merkel and Macron beloved in all of Europe?

No, europeans ADMIRE the UK. There's only one benefitor of ' europe' = the nazis, oh sorry, the' ' germans' '.

Sure r137, those Eastern European countries or those in Southern Europe who got and still get billions in subsidies every year from "the Nazis", French and UK haven't benefited from all that money at all. Look what shitholes Poland, Bulgaria or Romania were with millions of people living in poverty without health care or social security and look at them now. Right, haven't benefited at all, you dumb cunt.

R138 those shitholes don't register as countries IMO. Europe = France Greece Italy Spain Switzerland and Monaco

R134, funny.

I’m an American and recall in Paris. Ding called “Les Hamburger”.

...Being called “Les Hamburgers”, I mean.

Why do Germans think Poland is a shithole? Marie Curie and so many scientists came from Poland. It was communism that was tried and failed. Didn't Karl Marx only mean communism for a country like Germany and know it would fair in a country like Russia?

How is it that countries so side by side can end up being so different? There are parts of Turkey that are much nicer than any of Eastern Europe.

Poland was a very poor country prior to joining the European Union. They have greatly benefited from the money their "nazi neighbors" and other countries have provided them over the last decade. So it's just stupid to say only some big countries like Germany, France or the UK benefit from the EU.

The Germans are not Nazis. The people of the recent generations had nothing to do with that and it's unfair to call them that.

[quote] R142: How is it that countries so side by side can end up being so different?

This could be its own thread.

Vermont - New Hampster

Utah - Nevada

Illinois - Indiana

England - Ireland

Pakistan - India

Argentina -Brazil

Arizona - New Mexico

Japan - China

Japan - Korea

Czechia - Slovakia

Me and my neighbor in 11B

Oh, also the trifecta of Saudi Arabia - Israel - Iran.

There might be a little bit of resentment from the French towards Germans and Brits, but it's really not that deep, especially among younger people. The last person I heard using the word "boche" was a 90 year old man who went through WW2. And "rosbif" is usually used in a humorous way, not maliciously.

General stereotypes about Brits is that they're cold, with a very particular sense of humor, that the women will wear miniskirts regardless of weather or body type, and that their cuisine is terrible.

For Germans they are seen as uptight, humorless, and boring, and living mainly on sausage and beer. I think probably all high schools offer German classes as second language, but they are not very popular since general consensus is the language is overly complicated and sounds terrible. Most people take Spanish instead.

But like R135 said, we do meet each other, most people I know have been to England and in high school we had German exchange students. We know people are just people, not stereotypes and not responsible for what their country did 80 years ago.

I understand the West Germans think the East Germans are backward hillbillies. They were only separated for 45 years, which is a historic blink of an eye. But it was a critical time, when the West rebuilt after the war, and the East ossified.

I went to Berlin recently, and the East section still has some of the Soviet-era concrete and cinderblock housing still standing, but just barely. They really look like crap and unsafe for habitation. Most of it in the city center has already been replaced with modern buildings. Some places in the East still actually look like they’ve been untouched since the war. Anybody who bought East Berlin property in 1990 would have really made out buy now, if they could get the property title cleared-up.

It’s always amusing how year after year countries vote for neighboring countries’ selections in the Eurovision song contest ie Norway for Sweden, Malta for Greece, Slovenia for Croatia, etc.

There's a thin line between love and hate.

R149 I think you mean Cyprus for Greece.

- The French hate the Brits and vice versa

- The Scandinavian countries all hate each other

- Italians hate the Slavs and vice versa

- Everybody hates the Germans

R144 agree

Oops, yes, R151, I meant Cyprus for Greece. Malta always votes for Italy.

R152 seems to make sense based on limited experience. Any euros agree?

The French and the British do not hate each other really. We pretend to but the reality is there's so much mutual respect and shared history between our two countries. I'm half French and grew up in London so I've seen it from both sides. We've been rivals for as long as we've existed and might call each other 'rosbif' or 'frog', but these two names are meant jokingly and with a kind of affection - they're not really insulting terms like a lot of nations use for people they hate.

What R156 said. The frog/rosbif thing is just ribbing.

Well, then how do you explain the Brits constantly mispronouncing French words/place names-like “Elysee” as “Eh-LEE-zhay” and “garage” as “GAR-udge” and even Cyrano as “Sir-RAH-no.” And Renee (as in Zellweger) is always “Renny.” Contempt has to be the reason for this.

Here's a DataLounge thread on that very topic, R158.

During WWII, as the Germans were charging towards Paris, Churchill contacted the French government and proposed that the two countries merge into one. It seems the only reason was to encourage the French to fight on and to raise French morale.

Poland is known as the Mexico of Europe

Wow, r160. I had no idea, and I’m a college graduate that visited the Churchill museum in London. So embarrassing (to be fair, I was drunk as a skunk in the museum).

[quote] Why Belgium? Tell me more. I think of chocolates and sexy pouty lipped boys in berets riding bikes and carrying baguettes with wool scarfs fluttering in the wind.

Belgians hate each other and have since it became a country. It's the Flemish vs. the Walloons.

R158 not everybody speaks French, this type of chauvinism is exactly why we(I'm not a Brit) dislike the French. In the mind of the French their language the most important global language.

R163 Many Flemish people would be happy to see Flanders reunited with the Netherlands.

The Irish have 800 years of issues and war with the Brits. The Brits are blissfully unaware and many think Ireland is still part of the UK.

I heard they don’t like each other and that they talk trash about each other all the time.

Of the big separatist movements in Europe: Scots, Northern Irish, Corsicans, Bretons, Catalans, Basques, Flanders, Sicilians, South Tyrol and Bavaria, the Catalans are hands down the most arrogant and annoying. They were genuinely shocked that Europe wasn’t taking their side against the rest of Spain because, according to them, they’re the “most European” and are using fascist tactics to rewrite their history and that taught to kids in school. They can’t understand why no one foreign wants to learn their language because, according to them, it’s just as legitimate as Castilian Spanish.

I don't really think about other Europeans that much, we live in our own little bubble here in Scandinavia. Probably because of the shared language and culture.

shared language? closely related languages maybe but I knew Danes who hardly understood Nynorsk(and definitely not Icelandic) and who would always make fun of the Swedes any chance they got. Indeed Scandinavia, beautiful as it is, is a bubble where not many EU citizens feel welcome(to live there anyway).

I work for a Danish company (I’m in the US), and they love to make Swede jokes anytime they can.

This one’s my favorite:

How does every Swedish joke start?

By looking over your shoulder.

^ What, can they tell a Swede by just looks?

I love how when you go to amateur fetish sites, the ones into skinheads, rubber, sc*t, prolapsed assholes, etc are all continental Europeans.

It's true that no one like the Dutch. They're the kind of people who'll helpfully tell you when you've put on weight.

R168, I believe the Catalans in Catalunya Nord on the French side (Roussillon) are perfectly happy being French. But their separatist brothers on the Spanish side talk of liberating them from their occupiers.

The Catalans in Catalonia want to “liberate” Valencia (the Valencian dialect is closely related to Catalan) and the Balearic Islands (variant of Catalan spoken in Majorca) as well as a pocket of Sardinia which is part of Italy. Unfortunately none of these oppressed people have shown any eagerness to join in their struggle.

Bunch of historical troublemakers, the Catalans. Look it up.

R176 I used to live in Majorca. Most of them are thoroughly supportive of Catalan independence.

No, they’re not. How can most of Majorcans be supportive of Catalan independence when most Catalans don’t?

92% of Catalan voters are in favor of independence.

R178 For clarification a 92% vote in favour of independence, with a turnout of 43%. The pro independence majority is polled at 51% to 55% of the mainland population in 2018.

I don't know where youre getting your information but you're ignorant as fuck.

A more detailed breakdown of statistics.

92%? That vote was boycotted by non-separatists.

And it’s the same in Scotland.

R182 the Spanish government conducted many such polls to try and discredit the referendum. Wich was the Democratic will of the people. Unfortunately Americans will never understand what that actually means.

From the article you posted:

In the latest elections the pro-independence parties (the Catalan Republican Left, Together for Catalonia and the far-left CUP) secured 42.59% of the vote in the region while the parties against succession got 39.85. With 14% for a party that doesn't have an official line but still wants another referendum (without it being suppressed by the government this time) That tells you more than any unofficial poll

R182 It's obvious from this thread that most Americans are almost entirely ignorant about European politics (not just Spain/Catalonia. That's to be expected. The Americans aren't educated in European history or politics. And they have an entirely different concept of democracy to us. But the English have no fucking excuse for thinking Ireland is still part of the UK. Their education really is abysmal.

R184 El País is the most respected newspaper in Spain and not a stooge of the Spanish government. They are, in fact, major critics. But if you want to believe that 92% of Catalans want independence (those are Saddam/Gaddafi type numbers) so be it. Those opposed are refusing to vote, there’s an active movement supporting this.

If those opposed are refusing to vote then they won't have a say, therefore they aren't really opposed to it. If you want to stop something then fucking vote against it. The vast majority of those who did vote wanted it. It's a fact. If there was a huge opposition as the poll suggested then then more than 8% would have voted in the referendum And more than 35% in the general election.

El País is becoming the Daily Mail of Spain. It's been veering right since the referendum and fired several of it's best journalists for criticizing Madrid.

R188 yes it has become a bit of a joke. I'm not even pro independence and I can't take the pro- Government propaganda seriously. We all know what most Catalan people want,band always have wanted. Even if we don't all agree.

R187 I believe the statistic given to you was 92% of voters. 55% overall population which is accurate.

Those opposed are refusing to vote because the referendum was illegal.

R191 BaaaHahahahaha! You should probably stop now you're starting to look pathetic.

R186 yes indeed when I lived in England hardly a week went by that I didn't have to explain to someone that I was from another country that they were at war with for decades.

A Charity Mugger in Southampton accosts me.

ME: "I can't set up a direct debit I'm with an Irish bank." HIM: "Ireland's in the UK mate." ME: No... Northern Ireland is in the UK. I'm from the Republic. HIM: "Yeah but Ireland... Like the Island next door... That's part of the UK, like we're all British..." ME: "No...No Dear... Ireland used to be British territory.... But now it's a separate country... We fought a war over it? " HIM *Calls his friend over* "Here Bill tell him Ireland's in the UK innit?" BILL: "Yeah Ireland's in the UK."

[quote]not everybody speaks French, this type of chauvinism is exactly why we(I'm not a Brit) dislike the French. In the mind of the French their language the most important global language.

No, French is not the most important global language it was once - just as the U.S. is no longer "Number 1!" at anything worth declaring.

The difference is that the illusion of the first is useful in targeted ways to quickly dispense of assholes who don't speak French.

We still have the option to learn French at secondary level in most European countries but the options are expanding. Russian is still the most spoken language in Europe. Counting the Balkans.

Cuntalans are the worst. And that gibberish they speak is not a language.

I am Scottish, and have been to almost every country in Europe thanks to Inter-Rail when I was very young, and a strong desire to see all the capitals of the continent. I have always found more similarities than differences. Travelling by rail is still my favourite, and this year we went to Austria, Slovakia and Hungary. It upsets me greatly that unrestricted travel will come to an end because of Brexit. Travel is the best way to broaden your horizons and really get to know a country and its people. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU, but we are being dragged out against our will because we are shackled to Westminster. Xenophobic Little Englanders are preparing to celebrate leaving the EU tomorrow. Most of my English friends are heartbroken.

[quote]I loved in Holland for 4 years. Everybody in Europe hates the Germans. Everybody.

Actually, the British quite like the Germans, so no. And it's far from everybody anyway. I have lived in the Netherlands and the hatred towards the Germans persists there, although the younger generation is getting over it. I remember watching a football match at a gay gym in London twenty years ago or so, where England thrashed the Germans in Germany. I was surprised and delighted at the result but the Dutch guy next to me was exultant. He just turned to me and spat out "I fucking hate the Germans. Bastards!". Given that this was a gay gym in London and VERY multicultural, I was shocked at his bile.

As for Ireland and the UK, it's complicated. Thanks to the CTA, all it takes for an Irish citizen to become a UK citizen (de facto if not de jure) is to step onto British soil and vice versa. The fact that the Dail sits in Dublin doesn't mean much when you have the likes of Tynwald in Douglas, the States Assembly in Jersey or, indeed, Holyrood in Scotland. People who aren't otherwise absorbed by politics or anything that isn't local are often confused.

[quote]Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU, but we are being dragged out against our will

Scotland had the chance to "unshakle" itself from Westminster in 2014. It decided to remain "shackled".

R199 in their defense that was before the Brexit referendum

R197 like you I love travelling in Europe too and Scotland is my fav. I'm extremely sad to see you leave the EU(and many of my fellow country men too). Our world needs healing and unity, not this.

R198 I hate to break it to you but that's not remotely true. The CTA allows travel and residency (or will until Brexit) but citizenship is different. to get citizenship is super complicated I suggest you start looking into it now and if you qualify get an Irish passport to retain your EU travel perks. It's pretty much impossible unless you have an Irish Born Grandparent though.

R170 Shared language is maybe a stretch. Closely related languages, maybe. Nynorsk is only one of two Norwegian languages, it's a written language only. Nobody speaks Nynorsk, but even those who write are a tiny minority. 90 % of the Norwegian population write Bokmål. I nearly flunked in Nynorsk because I hated it so much. I have no relation to it at all, but we were still forced to learn it in school. I encounter Bokmål everywhere. Nynorsk... not so much. Most people live in eastern Norway and everyone uses Bokmål here. I know that's not the case in western Norway though, where most people write Nynorsk (with the exception of Bergen, they use Bokmål there).

Tl; dr. Most people in Scandinavia understand each other. We might have to put in an effort, and some languages are easier to understand than others. For example I have no issue understanding Swedish. Danish on the other hand is harder and I need to focus more when I listen to it, but that too is usually not a problem. I have no idea why you include Icelandic when Iceland is not a part of Scandinavia. Scandinavia consists of Norway, Sweden and Denmark.

It's time we had a schengen in the US too after breaking into 50 countries and forming an EU type of association.

Hate me, but you know it's the most sensible thing to do.

[Quote]Russian is still the most spoken language in Europe.

Wrong! German is the most spoken language with Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Italy.

Wrong! With second-language speakers, English is the most spoken language in Europe. Even with the UK leaving.

Second language speakers do not count in this idiot at r205.

No it is Russian.

Also r205 The UK isn't leaving Europe. It's leaving the EU. The EU is only 28 countries out of 44

The Netherlands are a bit like the national equivalent of Datalounge. Uptight queens juxtaposed with free kinky sex and drug use. Fun for a short visit but be prepared for total strangers to tell you need rhinoplasty.

R196 I disagree. I find Catalans spunky, sharp-witted and infinitely more interesting and fun be with than their paisan cousins. The other EU nations could learn a lot from them. Not to mention their gene pool is rather fetching.

They boast a wonderfully vibrant arts scene and a youthful sociable population, too. Were it not for the crime rate and finances that do not permit I’d move to Barcelona next week.

R205 true

R209 I love the bluntness and straighforwardness, I prefer that above fake politeness

Most of Russia is in Asia...

good point

God, you're stupied, r192. 92% voted for independence out of a [bold]43% turnout[/bold]. That referendum was actively boycotted by non-separatists. That does NOT mean 92% of voters but 92% of those that turned out.

Ask Northern, Southern, and Slavic europeans. Separately.

This sums it up nicely. Solidarity exists. Go mr. Feitsma.

What a pointless gesture. But the Dutch are good at that. So will they continue using English in the EU? That would be embarrassing.

Solidarity is so pointless indeed, the world doesn't need that at all. We need more discord.

As long as it isn't french. I think it's time the EU starts to pay more attention to minority languages. Start putting an effort into it EU. Indeed why would it have to remain English?

Because the Dutch and the Scandinavians seem ashamed of their own languages.

I for one am not. Yes there's relatively few of us and it is part of our culture to be aware of the fact that we're just a small country, we have to speak other languages when abroad. I think that's what you're referring to. I would love Brussels to speak Flemish/Dutch for a year and Polish the next year or Gaelic, Catalan, Frysian, Czech etc. Unity in diversification.

the comission parliament I mean

The Brits have really thrown a spanner 🔧 in the euro works, there’s no denying that. It many hurt their economy, but EU isn’t coming off unscathed, either.

No it's a painful economical divorce but EU as a whole is stronger than the UK on its own. At least NI, Wales and Scotland realise this. It's simply the English feeling they have(their now non existant) empire back

None of the responses really answer what Norwegians think of Danes vs. Finn's vs. Swedes vs Dutch vs Swiss vs Italians vs Russians vs Irish and vice versa permutations and combinations !

Is there something to people above the Alps and below the Alps? East and West Europe? Do they all see themselves as European equals?

The Finns think Swedish men are effeminate homosexuals.

Mmmmmm.

Dutch and Swedish really are both hideous languages to listen to.

Swedish sounds alright IMO, r228. Danish, however...

[quote]None of the responses really answer what Norwegians think of Danes vs. Finn's vs. Swedes vs Dutch vs Swiss vs Italians vs Russians vs Irish and vice versa permutations and combinations ! Is there something to people above the Alps and below the Alps? East and West Europe? Do they all see themselves as European equals?

No one gives a shit. It's 2020.

The "us" vs. "them" in Europe isn't between the individual countries.

It's every country against the immigrants.

According to my own experience: French are the most arrogant ones among other West Europeans. And it was confirmed above. As a person, who have been living in Europe for all my life I can say that Europeans treat each other with some scepticism (or an open hate, like French and Belgians, Greeks and Turks, Russians and Ukranians). EU is just a subtle bubblee full of hypocrisy. Meanwhile, Europeans are very welcome to each other;)

All you cynical cunts can eat my European ass! Overall, there's more good in the EU than bad. Young people today cannot even imagine a divided Europe anymore.

r232. Listening the European hymn always makes me break into tears.

An unified Europe is the best thing what has happened to us after the end of the war in 1945.

We all have jokes about our neighbours, even from small town to the next small town. But at the end of the day we are able to live together.

The very majority is fine with EU.

There will always be people, who think that the EU is restricting them in their daily life.

On the other hand they are happy traveling without borders and custom with the same currency.

I remember the time in the 70's when we were traveling to Italy to Elba when my mom had to order Austrian Schilling and Italian Lira at the bank weeks before.

The EU is the best thing that happened to our small and crowded continent after the downfall of the Roman Empire.

I am an European from the bottom of my heart.

God, are you Europeans always this sappy?

R234, sorry, not everyone can be as tasteful and humble as Americans...

r234. Explain "sappy" please.

Do I really have to? You can read r233 and you should get it. So dramatic and over the top. A bunch of countries that share open inter-state borders and a currency... BIG DEAL!

r237. Darling I am r232.

And yes. A bunch of crowded countries with different languages and currencies decided in a democratic process that is there "A better together"

Sorry at r232. I am r232. With my deepest apologies.

Pretending Europeans have no issues with each other when we just had Brexit. I’ll say, the Dutch and Danes seemed most desperate for the Brits to stay. Why, I don’t know. The Brits don’t care for them a lick.

R240, the Dutch and the Danes showed no concern at all Brexit is especially good for the Netherlands, as loads of businesses and organisations are moving there from the UK thanks to Brexit.

Brexit is all about English exceptionalism, no other Europeans think like that, and I think you'll find that the biggest divsions are today within the (Dis)United Kingdom. No need to worry though, the realities of life outside the EU will soon make all those leave voters realise just how good life actually was inside it.

R240 yes we do, the UK is still our neighbour, I was genuinely sad about Brexit and my heart bleeds for Scotland, NI and Wales. Sorry the English don't give a fuck about us but we did feel connected and R241 is right, now there is only the Divided Kingdom and Brexit will truly mean the end of the "empire" the English just felt they had retreived.

r241 The Dutch and Danish papers, especially before the referendum and the elections suggests they cared ... a lot!

Yes r243, they cared before the referendum, they care now in a "Brexit is a load of shit" kind of way. But they are not crying hysterically for the UK nor are they desperate because of Brexit, in the kind of "oh no, the UK has left and we will not be able to survive without them" way that r240 delusionally thinks.

r242. As far as I have learned, Brexit was an accident. Prime Minister Cameron wanted to be sure that his party was following him. Primarly it was about him and his power. So, he decided to ask british people about Brexit.

He was sure, that most people would vote for the EU. The vote was suddenly dominated from the other parties, their interest and their leaders.

It was never about UK, it was always about who has the longest dick.

I am sorry for the UK. This northern island in Europe will not be able to get the power back, they had for a couple of hundred years. The world changes. And it is no good idea to leave your allies.

As a german, i will always be thankful that they fought Nazi Deutschland and ended the war with the allies in 1945.

But I can really not understand why they leave the EU. For what? There is no hidden miracle place for them on the northern hemisphare for trading.

r245 If you're trying to convince us you don't care, you're failing spectacularly.

[quote]the realities of life outside the EU will soon make all those leave voters realise just how good life actually was inside it.

Switzerland and Norway are doing just fine.

r246. You are not living in Europe?

r247. Yes they do. Because all of the contracts they have signed with the EU. Suisse was always different since hundred of years. And Schweiz is a really small country inside the EU. Norway is much bigger. Both countries are a little bit out of the mainstream EU. At the end of the day Norway and Suisse are more grounded in the EU as Boris Johnsons UK.

The UK had much more benefits from the EU than the UK was paying.

If they want to live in their splendid isolation. Fine. Just do it.

But you're forgetting Britain is tied to a COMMONWEALTH.

The Queen is on the money of Canada and Australia. That's an economic boost of like two Californias. They're not alone. They will make deals with the EU, but have the control they wanted. They were fine before the EU and they will be fine after, and so will the EU.

Norway has oil and isn't part of the EU and it's fine. Guess what? Alberta has oil. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Don't cry for me Argentina!

r250. Sorry. Australia is not really the biggest partner in worldwide economy.

And the rest of the EU will survive the loss of the UK. The UK is known for their good skills in IT, mostly based in the Republic of Ireland.

There is no important producing industry of any kind left there. No textile, no cars, no engineering.

What do you expect from an island in tne North Sea? Leaving the EU is just so outdated.

The Republic of Ireland is not in the UK. Really and truly.

At soccer games the people in the stands throw bananas and make monkey sounds at the black players even if they are on the home team. This occurs in Italy, and eastern European countries among others.

r252. Of course, this point is yours. Sorry honey. My deepest apology.

R245/r249 You sound like a jilted lover. “Let’s see how they do without us”. These predictions of the U.K. becoming third world won’t come to fruition. And lest we forget, they tried those tactics before the referendum, and again before the elections, and the British essentially voted to leave TWICE! That’s how much don’t want to be a part of the EU.

Also, the constant mentioning of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is irrelevant (I believe Wales actually voted for brexit in the referendum?). If they’re given a chance a EU membership without the UK none would take the leap. Even Scotland.

[quote]But you're forgetting Britain is tied to a COMMONWEALTH.

[quote]The Queen is on the money of Canada and Australia. That's an economic boost of like two Californias.

The queen's white hair on Canadian and Australian currency doesn't begin to afford the UK the carelessness to say "fuck you" to the EU. Or "FUCK YOU" as you might say in all caps.

Look at the figures, not the royal portaits.

R247 They are a lot wealthier than the UK, Norway has gas and oil. F.e the EU will demand that British products will still live up to the EU standards, which will not give the UK the freedom they claimed they would have. The "no more EU rules"doesn't apply. The UK's export is going to suffer massively with hold ups at the borders and a worse trading deal with the EU than they had while they were members. 40% of their export goes to the EU

R245 agree

R253 horrible behaviour indeed. It's called "football" btw;)

Norway is in the EU's single market and the Schengen zone, is aligned with EU regulations and has freedom of movement - all things Brexit Boris has said he does not want (but will probably agree to in the end anyway, like he agreed to the EU's original proposal of having a regulatory border within the United Kingdom).

R250 you're funny, the commonwealth???? really?? Johnson has spread fairytales. The "empire" doesn't exist anymore, wake the fuck up. Brittania doesn't rule the waves. God your nostalgia will be the end of you, your country is falling apart brexit was just the beginning, Scotland will leave and you owe it all to yourselves. newsflash Canada, Australia etc. are not going to share its "wealth" with the UK simply because it stepped out of the EU.

R255, the actual Welsh voted by a majority to remain in the EU. English immigrants in Wales tipped the final result to a very slim majority for leave.

Also, your efforts to show how the EU is all desperate now show Brexit up for what it really is - a form of snobbery and disdain for others, an English jingoism that is outraged that the rest of Europe (and the rest of the world) isn't falling over itself to proclaim its eternal suppliance to the greatest nation ever.

R261 well said

I know r260. I couldn't tell whether r250 was satire or not, especially since Canada recently signed a huge trade deal with the EU which is worth much more than a UK/Canada deal will ever be worth, and Australia has said its priority is getting a trade deal with the EU not the UK and has given a less than warm reception to some of Brexit Britain's proposals.

[quote] like he agreed to the EU's original proposal of having a regulatory border within the United Kingdom

That was an agreement made under duress. It’s not known if that will last now.

The EU has stated that in no way the UK or other non EU countries will get as good as a trading deal as member countries. Common sense. Time for the UK to face the facts, it will never be as good as it was.

R263 true, prospects aren't great. Also no deal with the US yet since Johnson declined trump's proposal to show the UK that he wasn't his lapdog.

Long story short: current EU citizens think the English are nostalgic fools(but we will miss them)

The Anglophobia on this thread is JUMPING. One of Europe's largest economies just left the Union. You can't be dumb and pretend that it won't affect both the UK and the EU.

Of course it will affect the EU too, no one said it wouldn't, it affects both sides negatively but the EU will overcome this(economically) more easily. I wouldn't call it phobia, you will be missed. If no one would give fuck the sentiments wouldn't be as strong as they are.

Europeans will always be united in their hatred towards Jews.

The German dude can’t believe anyone would willingly reject the EU and leave. They’re shocked! The UK has left them in a lurch to shoulder the burden of bills for Poland, Hungary and other ungrateful Eastern European countries, and only Macron is admitting privately what a disaster it is. Trying to blame it on individuals is useless because it’s the British people that have made it clear they want out. They’ve been complaining since Margaret Thatcher’s days and Europeans are showing their colours by saying the British should never have been a given a democratic say on their EU future. Proof they were right to get out. The Germans failed to control them over two world wars and have failed again through the EU superstate.

Americans' hatred, outside of any BS stirred up politically, is dumb: it's usually centered around sports teams.

R271 The EU has made exceptions from day 1 for the UK. Thatcher got her money back, the UK didn't join Schengen, no euro etc. It was a mistake of the EU to do so and it made the UK believe is was more powerful and more important than it actually is. There will be many disappointed when they find out their lives haven't miraciously been improved by brexit.

R270 I have not experienced anyone hating jews in my life here in the Netherlands. It's usually muslims that are being discriminated and disliked(which is not ok either)

I do think Brexit was in large part a government cock up. BUT many people have legitimate grievances with the EU. I think the fact that they weren't given a choice on the Nice or Lisbon treaties really upset a lot of people. The power balance in Europe was utterly changed and the EU wasn't democratic anymore. the spector of an EU common defence policy and army has a lot of people quite scared. With good reason.

It's not a bad thing if Europe wants to cooperate more when it comes to defence. That way they can create a level of security in a way individual countries right now can not.

Security against what? Each country has a different history, Russia may pose a threat to Latvia. if I were Latvian I might appreciate an EU army at my back. I'm Irish with no such history with Russia. Neutrality is central to our constitution. The Germans have mandatory national service. For us that would be police state level government interference. The PESCO plan is for each country to provide a different type of military support. What if we don't want to support whatever war on Africa the French are currently making money from? The Lisbon Treaty gave the most populous countries all the political power and the fact is that we don't have the same interests as they do. And supporting one of those interests would be anathema to many of us.

Strange admission that Brexit Britain was under duress from the EU - Boris and his Brexiters were going on about how the Northern Ireland deal (capitulation) was a great success. I'm not sure why you think it won't last - if Brexit Britain tries to go back on it then all relations with the EU and, by extension the rest of the world, will effectively freeze.

Are you trying to say that Brexit Britain is actually weak and has no leverage and that the EU is more powerful and can get its own way? That's not what the Brexiters promised us.

There are so many inaccuracies and misconceptions in r277 there's no point in trying to respond to it.

R278 is in response to r264.

R279 No by all means explain to me why I'm wrong. I'm sure you know exactly what you're talking about.

R277 Control is a complete illusion, do you truly believe that the balance of power was different before there was a EU(post WW2)? Same countries dominating European politics and economies as now. Do you truly believe the balance will shift now in favour of the UK? If anything the UK has now given up the voice it had to influence European politics (which will still very much influence the UK.)

R278 don't ever believe the promises of politicians

R282 I think you replied to the wrong post. Or didn't read what I wrote. I don't mention the UK at all. The balance of power has absolutely shifted since Lisbon, as our 44billion debt to the ECB to pay off German bondholders can attest. They couldn't fine us for non compliance before. They couldn't make huge agricultural deals with Brazil without our voice being heard. All the smaller nations lost their voice in EU parliament after Lisbon. Where are you from that you can afford to be ignorant about this?

The EU prior to 2007 was a democracy. Now it's not. I can't understand how anyone can't see the sweeping changes post Lisbon. Having said that they way the Brits have chosen to deal with that is foolish to say the least.

R282 Post WW2 Germany was literally in ruins. Now they have the strongest economy in Europe. Are you high?

R286 I don't know where you have learned your history but the economical and political structure of Germany had survived the war that's why it was relatively easy for the country to recover. The countries they invaded suffered the hardest blows economically and had to rebuild from scratch.

R284 the smaller countries never had a voice before either. I don't understand why you don't see this.

Strength in unity

I can't stress enough that the EU's position that the UK should never have been granted a referendum reveals they're true colours. They're not a democratic institution and are diametrically opposed to the sensibilities of most British people.

^ *their

R290 why would a goverment need to hold a referendum if they can't even properly inform their citizens? How is that democratic? People never knew what the hell they were voting for or against.

R292 by that logic the US Election should be called off.

At what point do people inform themselves and not rely on the government to spoon feed them information?

R292 is the exact EU condescending attitude that made the Brits hate Europe. The Brits knew exactly what they were voting for, and dispelled of any doubt in the recent election. But to you, it can’t be, because no one in their right state could possibly reject the EU. The EU just became weaker, just as the UK has to deal with the uncertainty of its choice ahead.

How should people know where and how to find the right info if no one gives them a clue except for feeding their fears? They are victims of failing politics and politicians again and again. I don't see the point of referendums, it's just populist crap to give people the feeling they have true influence on the greater game. You call a need transparancy condescending apparantly. Fine.

r295 Thats a good argument for more transparency ( which the EU could use, while we're on the subject.) But it's not a reason to stop people from voting for changes in their own constitution or political sphere. The right to vote is the foundation of democracy. If you think that right should be removed you are not pro-democracy.

R296 I think I am starting to understand what you mean, my point is that when you want people to vote on matters that have a huge impact on their country, it is(in my opinion) the duty of politicians and government to inform people properly in a way that everyone can at least understand the main consequences of a yes or no vote. This is not what happened during the brexit ref and not what happened during the eu constiutional law matter either f.e.. It is in no way ok. It's throwing people a bone. EU also could've provided Cameron with more info in 2016 so both parties have failed imo. It's just not as simple as stating the EU is undemocratic and the individual governments within the EU are any less undemocratic.

The EU is undemocratic and wouldn’t cut it in any Anglo-Saxon country. Europeans are prone to totalitarian regimes believing the state knows best and that’s why they think the EU superstate, even its current wounded state, is the way ahead. Hitler, Mussolini and Franco would never happen in the UK.

As for the person arguing against referendums saying the government didn’t properly inform the people on what they were voting for: what a crock of shit. Please be more specific and tell exactly what bit of information was missing from the Brexit discourse that the public was unaware of? None!

Whoops!

∆ See?

I am often in Europe. And as an expert in these things, I can tell you that Europeans of a certain class do see themselves as "European" - above all the trifles and cares of national politics.

R298 Angles and Saxons? What?

Britain today is not just Angles and Saxons. What are Anglo Saxons really anyway? Came from northern Germany, part of the Benelux and some of Denmark, Jutland. Mixed together for hundreds of years until 1066 The Battle of Hastings and the Norman King William the Bastard conquered the isle.

William the Conquerer brought with him his Norman army and mixed in with the inbred northern German descendents. So what is England really? Northern German, with close proximity northern French people, mixed with some Scandinavian, Celtic, Scottish, and Welsh. The Welsh people got their dark coloring from Spanish Moors when colonized by Mediterraneans.

So aren't Anglos and Saxons really just Germans and Norman people of Gaul that moved west, across the channel? So you're really saying the branch of Germans-French people who developed a culture on the British isles evolved into some form of individual autonomy that could never accept totalitarian. Yet they still have a Queen and are patriotically British.

I just don't see how any people are really THAT different from each other, especially in such close proximity. But they are on an island so that probably helps the separation.

∆ Yanks don't really understand nationalism.

R302, "Anglo-Saxon" is a blanket term that certain Europeans, namely the French, use fairly frequently to describe the British and their descendants (Americans, Canadians, Australians, etc.), regardless of ethnicity or cultural heritage.

Thanks for that unnecessary genetic history, r302. I refer you to r304 and implore you to shut up!

R302 thank you. R305 Are you French? Why you think Anglo-Saxon is a good term for all the brits is beyond me, even your beloved article R304 states; the term ‘Anglo-Saxon’ usually refers to a specific period in medieval history. Medieval prety much describes your current attitude and that of the brits so I guess you actually could have a point.......

It's like calling the Germans, Bavarians.

R301 True

R298 You don't seriously expect me to teach you how to use google.

Are you still on that “the Brits didn’t know what they were voting for” nonsense? So you think if they’d known they’d have voted to stay under the German yolk? Come on!

Anglo-Saxon is a term used worldwide (including in places like a Italy where I’m currently based) to describe the dominant cultures of the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Whether you admit it or not, there’s a shared culture there and many, for lack of a better term, have settled on ‘Anglo-Saxon’ to describe it. Just like there’s a shared culture in the Latin-based countries of Europe (Spain, France, Italy, Portugal), or Germanic (Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Norway) and Slavic (Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Serbia) and so on.

[quote]You don't seriously expect me to teach you how to use google.

Please humour me. I must be too dumb to have missed the magic piece of information that would’ve made the Brits reject Brexit.

R310 I would think Germanic would be different from Nordic, and Nordic different from Anglo-Saxon.

Funny how many Scots-Irish, Germans, and non English Brits settled lots of North America. In fact, the place in America that was settled most by the English was... The deep South. Very interesting. The Germans and Nordic people tended to go to the Midwest.

Some Brit was on here saying they thought US was more similar to German culture. In fact there actually ended up being more German descendents in America than English around the time of WW2 and they anglicised their names. I found that surprising.

That being said, what always made America great (and egalitarian Europe too) was that people could be welcome here. People like Steve Jobs' father from Syria, or Sergei Brin's Russian-Jew father, who was told he wasn't wanted at the Russian University so he packed up his family and moved to the US.

We're losing that when we want to keep people out. That is what Brexit is about. Not having enough and being envious that foreigners are coming first before what's owed to you. There's so much wealth disparity in the world and European democratic socialism is the best solution for it. Not everyone has a brain to invent the next big thing and they shouldn't be punished for it.

Brexiteers claim they’ll be able to welcome talent from the Commonwealth, including places like India which Europe hardly welcomed.

R301 Not the Brits.

R310 Anglo Saxon = Germanic

R314 hardly welcomed? maybe they are not welcome in Britain. In NL 35000 Indian expats in 2019 and numbers are growing and have been growing since 2011.

R313 yes

r317. Britain has millions of people of Indian descent. They're their largest minority.

Those who take offense to the use of "Anglo-Saxon" can use "Anglosphere" or "English-speaking world/countries" instead.

R319 I know but I believe R314 was referring to well educated people currently living in India and the Commonwealth, that comment was implying that over the past years those people were not welcome in the UK/ Europe and that this is a new plan of the current British government. Especially in IT there are plenty from the commonwealth currently in Europe, the numbers are still growing.

R311 I never said it would have surely changed the outcome if people would've been well informed. It might have and we will never know, my main point was that a referendum is not necessarily democratic or a good medium if people are hardly informed and mainly hear populist slogans. It's another way of manipulation imo and people are essentially given an over-simplified choice. British nationalism is based more on identity, the past and feelings than anything else so maybe nothing would have ever changed the mind of the majority of voters(mainly the older generations) who voted leave anyway. It seems people were not truly aware of what was at stake(and neither was the rest of the EU, there are two sides to this imo).

Seriously there are tons of articles out there R311 if you are interested.

R311 I never said it would have surely changed the outcome if people would've been well informed. It might have and we will never know, my main point was that a referendum is not necessarily democratic or a good medium if people are hardly informed and mainly hear populist slogans. It's another way of manipulation imo and people are essentially given an over-simplified choice. British nationalism is based more on identity, the past and feelings than anything else so maybe nothing would have ever changed the mind of the majority of voters(mainly the older generations) who voted leave anyway. It seems people were not truly aware of what was at stake(and neither was the rest of the EU, there are two sides to this imo).

Seriously there are tons of articles out there R311 if you are interested.

I think, if anything, there was over information and the people essentially made their choice ... twice. That’s what democracy is. Sometimes we have to deal with results we don’t like. But for the EU to say Brits should never have been given a say betrays a fundamental difference in culture and direction that makes me wonder how Brexit didn’t happen earlier.

R324 So maybe you knew where to get some decent info, I am willing to believe that. However looking at the majority of info that is available to us now, it seems the things that leave voters wanted or things they wanted to change had actually little to do with the EU. I wouldn't call it dislike. I feel sorry for us as EU citizens on a practical level, like not being able to avoid passport checks and as far as international education goes it will be harder to study abroad, no Eramus etc. but am also sorry for the Brits because it won't change the fact that many EU rules will still affect the UK. Just like new EU legislation. When it comes to EU legislation and rules, the UK will now not have a vote in those matters anymore.

*edit: apart from the economical disadvantages for both sides

Do you live in the UK, r325? "Dislike" is putting it mildly. Even Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn is privately anti-EU.

R327 No I don't. I do visit the UK and the republic of Ireland regularly though.

Indian IT is soo advanced!

Actually they are but the scammers aren't.

Jeremy Corbyn has been for leaving the EU for decades.

He must be so happy now R330

I've compiled a list of some of my favorite stereotypes and clichés that I have found to be true.

Greeks: Financially incompetent, friendly, invented gayness, nice food.

Italians: loud , gregarious, womanizing, organized criminals, nice voices.

Spanish: Impulsive, religious, passionate, not fond of bulls.

Germans: Control freaks, honest, humor deficit, cultural chauvinists.

French: Arrogant, war mongers, cultured, nice art.

Dutch: Honest to the point of rudeness, organized, good businessmen, ruthless, mean with money.

Irish: Alcoholics, either happy or depressed drunks depending on the day, actual fairy folk.

English: Self involved complainers. Good authors.

Polish: a nation of clinical depressives, harsh but funny, well educated but trapped in min wage hell.

Swedes: pod people, no variation of opinion, bureaucratic, uptight, beautiful.

Danes: Funny, laid back, nationalistic to the edge of xenophobia, promiscuous.

Hungarian: Generous, soft spoken, pragmatic, terrified of their government.

R322 Most of the best art in France is stolen from elsewhere. Think about it, they don’t have a Leonardo da Vinci or a Michelangelo.

Macron sets out his fantasy for the EU.

I wish we still had Donald Tusk, he already warned us for Putin. Putin is looking to divide the EU and to take back the eastern european states that belonged to the USSR. Macron is dangerous and just a puppet like Tusk stated(more or less). The middle class also is not the average class of the EU.

The French will throw out Macron in the next election. I don’t think there’s ever been a president more hated.

Donald Tusk is Polish. Of course, he hates Russia. There's such deep-seated enmity and resentment between those two countries that I don't think even regular citizens can put it aside to be friends. It's important to distinguish between Putin's actual destabilising interference and claiming Russia intends to invade the West, which isn't true.

I understand Tusk has experienced Russia's negative influence first hand living in Poland but Russia can't wait to have all their satellite states back and would profit from a weaker EU. Are you forgetting about Ukraine?

Again, Russia is not going to invade Europe. There’s nothing in it for them. If you want a European army, fine, but stop making it look like Russian troops will be marching in Brussels if Europe doesn’t create a common defence force.

As for Ukraine, I can certainly understand, though never support, Russian fears and reaction to NATO expanding to their borders. That was not necessary.

Russia's involvement in Ukraine has nothing to do with a possible European army that doesn't even exist yet.....

To make a long story short.

I am a proud Euopean. And I am fine with the fact that we all live without wars (sorry for all the inhabitants of former Yugoslavia, who lost peoe in a useless war) since 1945.

Europe is a great idea. But like a big family, there are always things to discuss and sometimes it gets ugly.

R340, it has everything to do with NATO expansion to their doorstep. The very NATO that shouldn't have existed after 1991.

So this rant was allowed on the BBC, and a lot of people are upset the world got to see that side.

Owen Jones

One of the replies posted this map of London. Is it true?

R342 The Nato is a great excuse for Russia. The war with Ukraine started in 2014 and not 91.

But why does NATO need to exist, let alone expand to Russia's borders? Why would they do that and expect no reaction? Which Western power would allow a hostile alliance at their doorstep?

R343 unfortunately those sentiments are heard in other European countries too. It is sickening and makes you wonder if education wise something could be done about this ignorance.

R343 "You wouldn't turn up in America and be allowed to go for free." Not the best example. My cousin lived with their bf in England and went to pay and they said, nah it's fine.

Got back to America and couldn't afford to go at all.

[quote]unfortunately those sentiments are heard in other European countries too.

What’s different about the U.K. is, that particular rant is also directed at Poles, Bulgarians and others mainly from Eastern Europe. People from the Commonwealth like Indians and Nigerians can already speak English.

Isn't everybody in Europe taught English in school?

Just watch the cheesy Eurovision contest and watch how the country blocks vote. Some countries will always support each other no matter how bad the song. So, no. There’s no single European identity. It’s very contrived and forced. People in Greece and Sweden don’t think alike.

The European project doesn't have as deep popular roots as US identity does. Most Europeans very much see themselves as a citizen of their own country first, and a European second, whereas I think in the States it is vice-versa. The most pro-EU demographic would be highly educated Western Europeans (excepting the UK) in their 40s or so: the generation that embraced interrailing. Many Europeans have lots of complaints about the EU, though few agree with what the British did.

It should be remembered that in living memory pretty much every country in Europe was occupied by another one, beaten in war, or governed by fascists or the USSR. Those memories are an important bulwark to the European liberal democratic project, despite its democratic deficit and the identity issues. The UK is the exception, which probably helps to explain recent events. Of interest though is how much support for the EU increased amongst young British people and all Irish people in the wake of the vote in 2016.

Countries make jokes about each other: France/Belgium, Spain/Portugal, England/Ireland and so on but that's common everywhere.

As for me, I very do much consider myself European (hence the name) and feel a pride in some of the good things the continent has accomplished in the realm of art, culture, science etc (while not turning a blind eye to the awful history of imperialism and colonialism). The European identity is very much on another level to my national identities however.

Actually I think Germany is underrated as a holiday destination. Much of it is beautiful, and the people are intelligent, well-educated, liberal, tolerant, and cultured, while Berlin offers lots of dirty, dirty sex. That said, if you're going to live there, don't pick a medium-sized or small town. I lived in Kassel for six months and genuinely developed depression.

One of the big problems is that I would say most Americans (I know there are exceptions) would be ready to agree that California should subsidise Louisiana, than Europeans would agree that Germany should subsidise Portugal or Greece. That is one of the big problems with the operation of the Euro - but I'm not sure how the EU manages to resolve it.

[quote]but I'm not sure how the EU manages to resolve it

By ignoring national democratic structures and institutions, that's how. Honestly, I don't blame them because the EU would be otherwise ungovernable.

R356 It was perfectly governable before 2007.

I have a hard time thinking of Europe as a unified nation in the way I think of the United States that way.

Despite major cultural differences among the east coast, the south, the midwest, the southwest and the west coast, American ‘values’ of consumerism above all, a bipartisan political system (Democrats versus Republicans), English as the primary language, etc. are clear throughlines. We also are always taught American history (with some significant regional variations) and have a shared sense of what matters to “US.”

European nations are quite different. There’s always been a lot of migration among the countries and national borders move around, but languages, costumes, diets, governmental systems, monarchies vs. parliamentary systems, radically different political parties, etc. make them cultrually FAR different than US states are. Also, many coastal European countries colonized other places far away in the past and have integrated their cultures over time—British culture is more influenced by India than would be familiar to anyone else in Europe, Ireland has strong political ties to the US, France’s history is extremely nationalistic and arts-based, Germany is hyper-industrial, etc. It just seems that European nations have far less unifying them fundamentally than American states do, as different as we Americans may feel from one another regionally.

[quote]I have a hard time thinking of Europe as a unified nation in the way I think of the United States that way.

I suspect your difficulty owes in no small respect to the fact that Europe is a continent, not a nation, and the European Union isn't a nation. A German is a citizen of Germany; Germany is a member of the EU; a German, by right of being a citizen of Germany is also a citizen of the EU; but the EU is not the United States of Europe. The EU is not a sovereign nation, Germany is.

The USA is one country, Europe is a continent with, I believe, 50 different countries. How is this in any way similar?

R359 Granted, but the EU seems to be designed to have its cake and eat it too by retaining independent, sovereign nations, but formally allying them with one government based in Belgium. It’s a weird hybrid that seems to be destined for tension by design. Even as you describe it, it sounds like it’s a self-contradictory set of separate nations and one singular nation, at the very least in the sense that the collective does have its own governmental body. This does make it analogous to the United States in that every state likewise has its own identity and history, its own flag, its own legislature and its own governor, but also representatives in the national Congress. States have their own rights that are designed so as not to be infringed upon by federal government except in certain instances, and that seems to be a similar design of the EU system.

Americans don't know the difference between Europe and European Union

R361: Oh for fuck's sake, it's not analogous to the U.S. where each state has its own flag and its own state fair.

You are the reason I complain that when Americans travel, they spend 90%+ of their time comparing every fucking thing to something back in the U.S. and Kansas (which I'm sure has a lovely flag and a special and unique identity and history.)

While I do agree with R358 that there are a lot of differences in Europe, I wonder if they are as stark as the cultural divisions in the US - between, say, a rural evangelical Trump voter from Kansas, and a gay Warren-supporting professional from a big coastal city. The intensity of religious belief is one of the big drivers of this: it still tickles me that some people call up the TV networks to complain about Trump saying 'Goddamn'. In the EU, western countries (France, Netherlands, Denmark) are probably more liberal and less religious, with the opposite being the case in Poland, Hungary etc, but these divisions don't seem to cause as much trouble as in the United States.

Wht helps the US keep everything together is the very strong, traditional notions of patriotism which are so much more common there. For reasons of history, many Europeans are quite suspicious of flags and of vocal displays of nationalism.

Oh yeah, I found this study very interesting: apparently in 2010 50% of Republicans and 30% of Democrats would be unhappy if their child married someone from the opposite party.

R364 At least from here in the US, my perception of France is that French people all carry a strong nationalistic baseline that can erupt into terrifying popular movements when anything destabilizes their country or makes them feel like their distinctly French culture is in danger of being changed or subsumed. Is that wrong?

I think that is too broad-brush, really. Yes, the French are among the more patriotic of the European nations (in many ways they are quite similar to the US, with certain ideas about what a 'French' citizen should be and should be taught at school. However I think there's a lot more suspicion of the kind of vocal patriotism you see in the US - far fewer families would choose to hang flags outside their houses, the national anthem doesn't get played at the drop of a hat, there is no equivalent to the pledge of allegiance, and lots of educated liberal French (ie not Le Pen voters) are quite suspicious of vocal displays of nationalism.

Fun fact: I speak French fluently and teach it for a living, though my accent sadly is still noticeably foreign. When meeting French people in London, all of whom spoke perfect English, I would sometimes try to speak in French just because I like it and it keeps my hand in. Almost without exception they looked at me weirdly and resisted any attempts to speak French with me.

But I do think the government will start trying to push the French language more as a working language of the EU. Here in Ireland, the French Embassy is very on top of the state of French langauge teaching in the country, and regularly organises meetings to try and work together with teachers here to improve uptake and delivery.

R367 See, and your perception of patriotism in the US feels to me like a misperception. I’ve spent my life in the DC area, and around here I’d estimate that maybe one in every 250 houses might have a US flag posted, and in most cases, those are immigrants’ homes, not native-born Americans. There are some hyperpatriotic people, and many of them around here would be likely to work for the federal government, for example, in law enforcement or intelligence offices.

However, I went to my uncle’s New Jersey neighborhood (Somerville, an exurb of NYC), and there I saw what you described: very 1950s houses, tons of diners, most homes had flags hanging. That was very alienating to me. But I have traveled around much of the country and mostly I see US flags posted on commercial real estate and not on people’s houses. And around here in Washington, D.C., where perhaps one in every 250 homes fly a US flag, easily one in 20 houses has one of those “Hate doesn’t live here” signs in the yard or window.

Yeah, I think DC would very much be not in the American mainstream.

I've had several extended stays in the US and have family there. I've probably spent more time in blue states than red states, and I agree that attitudes to these things are pretty diverse. I certainly wouldn't presume to know about attitudes everywhere in the country.

But, I've heard some interesting anecdotes and stories that really drive home to me how different the US can be to what I'm used to. One liberal educated woman I used to talk to on another message board told me she had a problem with her neighbours. Like many people where she lived (North Virginia) she had a flag outside her house but was sometimes lax about taking it in in bad weather. Sometimes it would end up blown into the hedge and her neighbours, retired military people, told her that was she was doing was seriously offending them. I don't think that would happen here so much.

Also, the religion. I've met an American guy, around 25, in a Latin American country (so, who had travelled a bit) who absolutely couldn't believe that one of the Latin Americans in our group was an atheist. I mean, he was visibly shocked that anyone would say that publicly..

"While I do agree with [R358] that there are a lot of differences in Europe, I wonder if they are as stark as the cultural divisions in the US - between, say, a rural evangelical Trump voter from Kansas, and a gay Warren-supporting professional from a big coastal city. "

Jesus Christ. Ok... So you need to understand that every European country contains the same spectrum of city slicker to country bumpkin spectrum. They each have a full range if class and economic brackets, they each have a full range of left to right wing people.

They ALSO have thousands of years of history, and language and huge cultural differences between them.

It's MUCH more divisive than the USA.

Oh God R370 please learn to read.

PS, I’ll add that here in DC, there are easily two rainbow flags flying from both homes and businesses for every one US flag! Not even exaggerating.

So yes, there is a stark, stark difference between middle America and American cities. We are ideologically as disparate as the majority opinions of, say, Spain and Denmark.

But DC isn't an average US city right? It's not in a state, it's majority black, it is the seat of government rather than associated with a particular industry. The reasons people move there are different. I don't think we can take it as representative of anything but itself.

R373 The industries here are government, law, nonprofits, trade associations and other lobbying groups, government contractors (lots of military vehicle and weapons manufacturers, since we are after all the leader in preaching peace while profiting off war machinery), education and “healthcare,” including both actual health care and evil pharmaceutical interests.

Interesting point on flags. I don’t think I would ever see anyone in NYC displaying a flag. Maybe very rarely in Queens - which is a weird mix of immigrants and some old-time poorly educated NYers.

But when you get outside to rural America, it’s flag mania. It’s one of the most obvious symbols of the American divide. Maybe because rural people attach their self-importance to being American.

It’s by and large Christian Americans—who commonly quote select Bible passages—who fetishize and even idolize the US flag to the extent that some really do seem to regard it as a sacred idol. They’re supposed to worship no other idols, and yet these people have conflated their perverse, hateful notion of Jesus Christ with, very specifically, the American flag and the military. The neighborhoods that hang US flags are the neighborhoods where everyone attends church regularly.

I think the intention of a EU never was to become a second US. It is to explore where and how European countries can cooperate, it's business. It's not a cultural thing.

It is business. How can a small country compete with the likes of US, China with their gazillion people. They have to somehow make their markets bigger.

Stereotypes: French, Belgians: stinkers, but generally quiet Hungarians: they bathe alot and spray cologne every 5 minutes Dutch: loud Soanish: loud Germans: robots

R368 oh for Pete's sake . Travel the world. I've seen Dubai flags and Turkish flags hanging from apartments. People love flags.

Why are Germans and Polish like night and day? I don't understand how different groups came to be.

You're right there next to each other! How do you get such wild stereotypes about the people a few hours away? Doesn't make sense. Oh, there's something in the environment making people soooooo different!

R380 Germany and France are next to one another and they are total opposites: one has a language and people who are conceptual, abstract, meandering; the other’s language and people are all about logic and efficiency. One is heart and head in the clouds and the other is feet on the ground and hands put to work.

And the craziest part to me is that in DNA tests, so many different nationalities have distinct DNA signatures, but most French and German heritage is only discernible as “western Europe”—so the people are very much the same even as their cultures are so very different.

I tend to think of them as two siblings who came to be in the same household but are different in every imaginable way.

French are Latin Europeans. Nothing in common with Germanic culture. Even the Germanic areas close to the German border have been latinised.

Isn't it fitting that this ostensibly European topic has become completely about the U.S.?

I can assure you that Wales voted to leave the EU.

R383 Not really? It was asked by an American trying to relate and wanting to understand Europe.

Most of the white people in America are descendents of Europeans so it makes sense they would be curious about it. Or insecure when traveling because they want to be liked by people from a place that seems so rich and full of life they wonder why their ancestors ever left it for the New World.

If Coronavirus takes hold in any countries, it’ll be interesting to see who thinks what about whom.

^ Coronavirus terror. Like most forms of mass hysteria, appears to be a uniquely American phenomenon.

R387 I'd say it's pharmaceutical capitalism, another invented disease to make money of off.

R378 I don't really get your point, of course small countries can't and that's why the EU is economically working together

Interesting - three was a post on another thread showing how the amount of tourism in France blows away any other country. Yet, they are some of the surliest, least hospitable people in Europe.

So have you guys seen a bunch of Germans?

I wonder where they go.

How interesting - UK goes to Australia. And seemingly half of Europe is flooding into Germany.

I would have thought England would go mostly to Spain, Portugal. It's right under it.

Yeah this Jakub Marian site is so cool. You get to see what they think by map.

R385 What do you mean by most of the white people in America are descendents of Europeans? They all are

R394 You silly naive thing! Don’t you know some white people are Pleiadan extraterrestrials?

You need to watch less Real Housewives on Bravo and more Ancient Aliens on History!

R394 native americans and descendants of african slaves anyone? smh

R396 What do they have to do with white people?

Oh God - are you people really talking about American racism in a thread about what Europeans think of each other? Please find other things to think about - for your own mental health and the benefit of society.

R394 suggests that the European settlers have not mixed with other people in the US.

Original question of this thread:

Here’s a map of national stereotypes.

^ scroll down for euro-specific maps of what Europeans think of each other

I'm from Balkans. We all hate each other here.

Danes and Swedes tend to share a dislike for the Norwegians for some reason.

And the Finns, R403?

The Finns think Swedish men are effeminate sissies.

R400 thank you for the comprehensive maps. Great summary of views in every direction. Very educational for an American. And makes perfect sense based on limited experience. I LOVED the view of Europe by Gay Men - lol

Everybody hates the Italians and stupid tourists who feel the need to go to places like the Lombardia region.

Southern Europeans are so fucking lazy. Now they want the EU to save their asses by taking up loans for them? WTF?!

R407 You're fucking weird. If you think Lonbary isn't a great place to go there's something wrong with you.

"The refugee crisis has made immigration worse, as utopian efforts have turned into economic and social crises. Gangs, drugs, guns, shootings are connected to it, not because most refugees and immigrants are connected to them but because they're part of an underclass that reasonably managed social welfare states were not prepared to absorb."

The recent wave of migrants has brought more violent crimes to the countries that have taken them in. Migrants are represented disproportionately in crime statistics though people don't like to acknowledge it.

Indeed again Southern Europe wants Northern Europe to pay for their financial mishaps. Get your finances in order for once ffs

r411 Yes, it is insane. Italy, Spain and Greece fucked up their economy way before the Corona and refugee crises. Now they use the Corona-crises as an excuse to milk Europe for money?! I am glad many EU countries are saying no.

me too R412

R412 That's not fair. The southern Mediterranean countries are taking in the most migrants because of their proximity. It's not fair for Northern Europe to use them as a filter. They're not your buffer from the world problem of poverty.

Why would you ask them to do responsibilities you would not do? Assholes.

R7414 not true, look at the numbers of the native population as well. Southern Europe has always been corrupt and is not willing to conform to the economic EU rules, this is not new and it dates back from way before Syria and the Middle Eastern crises. While we are giving up our pensions and our healthcare southern Europe feels like they should continue the way they did before no matter what it costs other countries who are trying to live up to the EU standards. In the meanwhile we still take in refugees as we always have. We are not trying to avoid our committments.

What r415 wrote. Southern Europe, especially Spain, Italy and Greece were always an economic mess ruled by corrupt governments. They need to pull their shit together. Also, EU spends lots of money on the migrant crises.

Oh. Oh. Oh.

So. You're saying that all the southern governments are corrupt and northern Europe is not corrupt?

Their corporations are corrupt. Yes. What about that badly mismanaged Love Parade Disaster that killed people? McFit? They're no better because they're German. Fuck that thinking.

Uncut

R414 are you sure the southern countries are taking the most migrants? Serious question. From what I’ve read they all want to go to the UK, Germany or Scandinavia. Why is that?

R417, I lived in Spain years ago and their government did not run efficiently. Maybe it has changed.

I remember I overstayed my visa because they couldn’t get around to processing it. I went to immigration because I wanted to travel back to the states and was worried they wouldn’t let me back in with an expired visa. The clerk, smoking a cigarette, said “ don’t worry, kid, you’ll get back in”. And I did. Finally got the visa a month before leaving.

Great country but not efficient

r419 Scandinavians have a higher living standard compared to the southern countries also the welfare system is great in Scandinavia. If you are poor and have no education why would you want to live in Italy, Spain or Greece where the economy and social system is awful? People from those EU countries are migrating to Scandinavia to get free education and welfare money.

Eastern Europeans are considered trashy by the Western Europeans.